[Zen] Posting Policy - Posting Tips (the second half)

[Bill!]

It seems like everyone has thoroughly chewed on the Posting Policies, at least 
the 'Do This Or Else' part.  Some may have swallowed them but some are seem to 
be having a hard time getting them down.

What's maybe the most important part of the Posting Policy are the Posting Tips 
or 'Do This, Please' which are Chris' contribution.  I'm going to re-post them 
here and encourage everyone to read them again.  I think if you do it will help 
the 'Do This Or Else' part go down a lot easier.

POSTING TIPS
 Spirited discussions including disagreements about ideas or opinions 
are encouraged.
 Write scrupulously. Assume goodwill. Help rather than judge, and be 
aware of people's sensitivities. It is easy to trigger people's sore spots with 
careless words.
 Read forgivingly. Assume goodwill. Assume even critical sounding 
judgments are meant to be helpful. Read remembering that there is no way 
someone can judge you at all based on just your posts. If someone does get `up 
in your face', it is their style, not a sign they have some special authority 
to judge you. If it continues the Moderators will intervene.
 Consider including a bit of good humor, koans or anecdotes to support 
whatever potentially judgmental or off-topic words you also are including. 
Traffic composition is a matter of balance. Make those busy people happy they 
glanced at your words.

So let's just all RESET and try this again - this time, as Chris suggests, WITH 
AN ASSUMPTION OF GOODWILL.

...Bill! and Edgar and Al







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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Bill!]

Edgar,

As you know I don't like to rely too much on Buddhist or Hindu terms either.

'Samadhi' is a meditative state of non-duality or monism.  It's what I also 
call 'shikantazaza' if you're experiencing it during zazen.  It can also be 
called no-thought.  I associate it strongly with Buddha Nature since there is 
no dualism thus no delusion.  I know you include delusions in Buddha Nature, 
but I'm just explaining my terminology.

Anyway, if 'samadhi' is a state of pure non-duality how do you think that 
equates with 'nirvana'?  I'm begining to think the only diffrence is 'samadhi' 
is temporary where 'nirvana' is permanent.

What do you (or anyone else) think?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist 
> and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction 
> > between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and 
> > > nirvana: "...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms 
> > > but just sees them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms 
> > > cease permanently."
> > > 
> > > I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your "...see 
> > > them for what they truly are...".
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike,
> > > > 
> > > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just 
> > > > explaining it.
> > > > 
> > > > Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have 
> > > > time to wade through it all..
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing 
> > > > that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which 
> > > > Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation 
> > > > of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one 
> > > > does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they 
> > > > truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease 
> > > > permanently.
> > > > 
> > > > Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work 
> > > > through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual 
> > > > escape form altogether.
> > > > 
> > > > But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that 
> > > > dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all 
> > > > forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the 
> > > > world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically 
> > > > ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not.
> > > > 
> > > > Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when 
> > > > seen in the proper light.
> > > > 
> > > > That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is 
> > > > just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves 
> > > > the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget 
> > > > good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best 
> > > > depending on who is doing the judging
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it 
> > > > > also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As 
> > > > > I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long 
> > > > > as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening 
> > > > > to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is 
> > > > > extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless 
> > > > > of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that 
> > > > > karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make 
> > > > > emancipation from karma impossible.Here are a few snippets 
> > > > > on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do 
> > > > > the research..>He who believes in Karma does not condemn 
> > > > > even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform 
> > > > > themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic 
> > > > > nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to 
> > > > > receive the effect, whether
> > > > > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> > > > > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the 
> > > > > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no 
> > > > > one to receive the effect of the Karma, whethe

Re: [Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption

[pandabananasock]

That's just it, though. It doesn't matter how, and the why is always the same.  
You only 'escape' into fugitivery. 

Crazy part is, you're the warden!  Why the hell are you in a cell working on 
escape plans?!


On Fri, 6/28/13, Joe  wrote:

 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, June 28, 2013, 9:10 PM
 
 PBS,
 
 I think it's right.
 
 It depends on what one escapes into, and maybe even on how,
 and why.  Or if escape is the truth of the matter. 
 
 Any other pointers, perfume advisories, or menu
 recommendations?
 
 I'm having my birthday cake in 30 minutes.
 
 Be free, healthy,
 
 in the Dharma,
 
 --Joe
 
 > "pandabananasock"  wrote:
 >
 > He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is
 still not free
 
 
 
 
 
 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have
 read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups
 Links
 
 
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[Zen] Re: WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?:

[Joe]

Dear Mr. Suresh,

It is wonderful.  TOO wonderful for me.  I think, too, that you out-do 
yourself, there.  It is truly FINE.  Do others think so, too?  

Wow!  Glad to know you.

Maybe the "only" thing to do next is to use a ploy or tactic "they" will *NOT* 
expect.  Try a perspective from "Zen".  It's bound to cause an upset, due both 
to unfamiliarity by most readers, AND... because it is rather *appropriate*, if 
only they will think of it so, too.

Chances are, they will NOT; CAN not.

It will be be too new to them, too far afield, or, as we say, too far from Left 
Field (a Baseball sport analogy).  Not part of any current threads.

As usual, then, you are on your own (Batter-up!)  ;-)

Like the rest of us.

Now you know better than we do, how it is to be Us.

Don't tell anyone.

You see what I mean?

I wish you the very best.  Pardon my fun -ing.

It's just to encourage you in doing the great work you're doing.  Onward!

Sincerely,

--Joe

PS (Sober, and talking sense; eating Birthday Cake; drinking coffee).

> SURESH JAGADEESAN  wrote:
>
> Dear all,
> 
> This is not my article, but since it compares Buddha with Hindu god I
> thought let us see your view.
> 
> Best regards
> Suresh
> 
> 
> WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?:

[schnip]






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Re: [Zen] Attempts to deliberately steer the weather

[Joe]

Mike,

Couldn' hoit, as we say in N' Yawk.

--J.

> uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Bill!, Edgar, Be gentle Mike  Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad





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[Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption

[Joe]

PBS,

I think it's right.

It depends on what one escapes into, and maybe even on how, and why.  Or if 
escape is the truth of the matter. 

Any other pointers, perfume advisories, or menu recommendations?

I'm having my birthday cake in 30 minutes.

Be free, healthy,

in the Dharma,

--Joe

> "pandabananasock"  wrote:
>
> He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free





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RE: [Zen] Attempts to deliberately steer the weather

[uerusuboyo]

Bill!, Edgar,Be gentleMikeSent from 
Yahoo! Mail for iPad

[Zen] The Samsarashank Redemption

[pandabananasock]

He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free





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[Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft

[Joe]

Edgar,

Just don't incur the need for it, and post civilly.

Problem solved!

We'll let it go at that.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Changing a thread title is fine and is encouraged when the poster wants to 
> transition to a new thread. Nothing wrong with it at all.
> 
> On the other hand snipping does "destroy the integrity of threads" and is 
> deprecated. You are the only poster here that does it.
> 
> 
> That being said I don't think the moderators want to nit pick every aspect of 
> how members choose to post. The form of posts should pretty much be left up 
> to individual posters and excessive complaints about other's posting styles 
> are off topic and a distraction...
> 
> Edgar
> co-moderator
> 






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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

It has to do with the rules, broken on two different occasions by a presumed 
moderator in the same day, hence the two complaints.

Come, now; if we're on to a new way of operating, surely you are most welcome 
to fall in line, also.  Leave behind the nasties and gutter tactics, and pls. 
discuss civilly.  It's the "Zen" thing to do, but we don't need to invoke that 
to incur civility and respect.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
> 
> Stop your carping and reread the rules... The moderators have agreed on the 
> rules and it's not up to you to change them. A single complaint is OK, but 
> incessant gripping on the same issue is off topic and has nothing to do with 
> zen..
> 
> Edgar
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
> > Edgar, (and Bill!),
> > 
> > Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many 
> > of them "quiet" -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. 
> > 
> > It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names.
> > 
> > Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the 
> > abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans.
> > 
> > Please realize this.
> > 
> > Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please.
> > 
> > For the good of this Forum.
> > 
> > --Joe
> > 
> > > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of 
> > > which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional 
> > > nonsense and should be outed as such...
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Edgar, Bill!,
> > > > 
> > > > This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone 
> > > > through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.
> > > > 
> > > > As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT 
> > > > appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases 
> > > > which have nothing to do with the tradition.
> > > > 
> > > > That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated 
> > > > here.
> > > > 
> > > > thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,
> > > > 
> > > > --Joe
> > > > 
> > > > > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just 
> > > > > explaining it.
> > > > [snip]





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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Edgar,

Take the same advice.

Your insults are beyond the pale, especially for a presumed moderator.

See Chris' "Posting Tips", as well.

I give this advice as a friendly suggestion, and for the benefit of all here 
concerned.  tnx,

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Stop your carping and reread the rules...
> 
> Edgar






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[Zen] WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?:

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

Dear all,

This is not my article, but since it compares Buddha with Hindu god I
thought let us see your view.

Best regards
Suresh


WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?:

The
history of Sanatana dharma practically begins with the
Rigveda. Here, we have the astonishing record of the progress
of the mind from worship of the forces of Nature like fire, wind, rain etc., to
the realization of the Absolute spirit (Brahman). In this progress
we see the trail of broken idols, overthrown divinities and abandoned
faiths. Gods shaded away giving place to
others. Man realized that the truth is “that being the
one which the wise call by various names as Agni, Yama and Maatarishvan”.

The
Universal order was supposed to be maintained by sacrifices
(Yajna). The Universe itself was supposed to be a result of a Yajna
by Gods (Purusha sookata). Yajna became the means and Rita (cosmic
order) the end.

This
Yajna became so important in the later years and was made complex and varied
during the period of the brahmanas. Sacrificial religion of a
mechanical and soulless kind started prevailing.
It is in this
period that the concepts of Deva-Pitr-Rishi runas, varnaashrama dharma, swarga
and naraka etc., developed. Priests became very powerful.

After
this period of decadence, the renaissance represented by the Upanishads came
up. All later thoughts are the result of these Upanishads.
Bhagavadgita is the essence of these Upanishads and Brahma sootras is
a thread
which binds together all the upanishadic flowers. It is
this period when the foundations of Sanatana Dharma were firmly laid.

Brahman,
Atman, Moksha, Samsaara, Karma, Upaasana and Jnaana became important and the
Gods receded to the background. Priests were subordinated and
Yajnaas were looked down upon. Dyaana (contemplation) took
the place of worship. Jnaana takes the place of Yajna.

Unfortunately
after some time, the old sacrifices, mechanical rites and old beliefs in gods
resurfaced with greater vigour and varnaashrama dharma was made
tighter. The teachings of the Upanishads were ignored and orthodoxy
of the priests became more stringent. Grihya sootras became
more important than the shrouta sootras.

It
is this period which gave rise to a number of charlatans who aped the seers of
the Upanishads and propagated fantastic theories of their own and fought
between themselves which naturally confused the minds of the common
people. There was a mere babel of tongues and it was an age of
speculative chaos. True religion, morality etc., were lost and
meaningless rites, superstitions etc., took roots.

It
was in this period that the Buddhaavataara took place.
Buddhism
can be considered as a continuation of the deepest intuitions of the
Upanishadic Rishis. It retained the ethical ideals of the
religion, but repudiated the authority of the Vedas and ascendance of the
priests. Buddha did not break away from the religious
tradition of the country.

According
to Rhys Davids, “HE WAS BORN AND BROUGHT UP AND LIVED AND DIED A
HINDU”. “He can be considered as the greatest and the wisest
and the best of the Hindus” (see Buddhism pp 83-85).

Dr
Radhakrishnan in his “Indian philosophy” Volume I pp 676-694 has given a
detailed comparison between the Upanishadic religion and Buddhism. Let
us see the similarities between the
teachings of Buddha and those of the Upanishads.

1.
Both
do not accept the authority of any text (Vedas) and insist on personal
experience.

2.
Both
have contempt for ritualism and sacrifices.

3.
Both
say that the absolute reality (called Brahman by sanatanis and Dhrma by
Buddhists) cannot be comprehended by the intellect.

4.
Both
agree that Moksha or Nirvana, the state of changeless reality alone peace for
the mind of man.

5.
Both
agree that this reality can be reached only through renunciation, meditation
and realization of the oneness of all life.

6.
Both
consider the world and the individual self as impermanent.

7.
Both
believe in the law of rebirth and Karma.

Buddha’s
teaching was restricted to the four truths- there is suffering in the
world, there is a cause for it, it can
be removed and there is a way for that end. He believed in the eight
way path for emancipation- right belief, right
aim, right speech, right action, right living right effort , right mindfulness
and right contemplation. These lead to
Nirvaana.

Buddha
was more interested in providing remedy for the ills of life than in discussing
metaphysical questions. His
terminology has great similarity with that of the Upanishads. He
discouraged putting questions which had no bearing on the practical
life. His avataara can be considered as the second renaissance of
the Sanatana dharma and that is how he was considered as an incarnation of
Vishnu.

Corruption
in Buddhism:-

How
the religion started by him deteriorated is another story. If what
Buddha tought was retained in its
pristime glory, Buddhism would have remained a supplement to the
mystical teachings
of the Upanishads. It would be absorbed c

Re: [Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Changing a thread title is fine and is encouraged when the poster wants to 
transition to a new thread. Nothing wrong with it at all.

On the other hand snipping does "destroy the integrity of threads" and is 
deprecated. You are the only poster here that does it.


That being said I don't think the moderators want to nit pick every aspect of 
how members choose to post. The form of posts should pretty much be left up to 
individual posters and excessive complaints about other's posting styles are 
off topic and a distraction...

Edgar
co-moderator



On Jun 26, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Joe wrote:

> Bill!, Edgar,
> 
> One of the weak characteristics of the YAHOO! Zen Forum is caused by the 
> excess liberty that some posters take with changing the title of a thread.
> 
> I see this as an extreme NEGATIVE.
> 
> It destroys the integrity of a thread, where by "integrity" I do not mean 
> some vague moral advantage, but the integral-completeness and dedication of a 
> topic as begun by the OP (original poster).
> 
> When the title of a thread keeps changing, so does the topic. This constant 
> morphing invites off-topic posting, because, well, there *IS* no topic, 
> anymore.
> 
> Could you two Moderators, and Owner, please, in your draft of the policy for 
> behavior on Zen Forum, include some guideline(s) about thread-titles, and 
> please encourage members not to change them.
> 
> It's my feeling that, once a thread has begun under one title by the OP, it 
> should NEVER be changed. This encourages good and due concentration on the 
> topic of the thread, and helps to eliminate large swings away from the topic, 
> and of Zen, in general.
> 
> Too many posts are too chatty, and not devoted to ANY thread title, original, 
> or changed. One reason is the willy-nilly changing of thread titles: Leave 
> them alone!
> 
> Keeping the integrity of a thread also allows the thread to be researched 
> reliably on the Website, where all posts go to enjoy immortality.
> 
> Not on YAHOO!, but other "board" software makes it more obvious how this 
> virtue of thread integrity is actually valuable: you can see all the thread 
> titles of current activity, and can join or avoid certain ones. And you can 
> be sure the discussion will be on-topic, in any thread.
> 
> On our Zen Forum, here, it seems that "anything goes", in any thread, because 
> focus is *diffused* by posters obsessively/excessively/incessantly changing 
> the subject, AND changing the thread title. 
> 
> What we get is "mush".
> 
> Mush in, mush out.
> 
> This is a major weakness thus far of this board, and a causative origin of 
> some of its wild meanderings, and incivilities. When threads become co-opted 
> by others and thus over-personalized, things become personal, and off-topic.
> 
> Let posters begin NEW threads if they like, and not sponge-off of 
> concentrated, dedicated ones.
> 
> I hope you can see a way to discourage the changing of thread titles in the 
> guidelines of any draft- and adopted-Posting/Replying policy.
> 
> thanks!
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > This is the policy Edgar, Al and I have come up with regarding future Posts 
> > and Replies. Please review it and return comments preferably publicly or 
> > privately if you must to Edgar or me.
> > 
> > ***
> [snip]
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Stop your carping and reread the rules... The moderators have agreed on the 
rules and it's not up to you to change them. A single complaint is OK, but 
incessant gripping on the same issue is off topic and has nothing to do with 
zen..

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar, (and Bill!),
> 
> Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of 
> them "quiet" -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. 
> 
> It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names.
> 
> Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the 
> abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans.
> 
> Please realize this.
> 
> Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please.
> 
> For the good of this Forum.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > 
> > Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of 
> > which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional 
> > nonsense and should be outed as such...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar, Bill!,
> > > 
> > > This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone 
> > > through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.
> > > 
> > > As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT 
> > > appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which 
> > > have nothing to do with the tradition.
> > > 
> > > That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated 
> > > here.
> > > 
> > > thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,
> > > 
> > > --Joe
> > > 
> > > > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just 
> > > > explaining it.
> > > [snip]
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Stop your carping and reread the rules...

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar, (and Bill!),
> 
> Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of 
> them "quiet" -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. 
> 
> It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names.
> 
> Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the 
> abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans.
> 
> Please realize this.
> 
> Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please.
> 
> For the good of this Forum.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > 
> > Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of 
> > which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional 
> > nonsense and should be outed as such...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar, Bill!,
> > > 
> > > This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone 
> > > through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.
> > > 
> > > As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT 
> > > appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which 
> > > have nothing to do with the tradition.
> > > 
> > > That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated 
> > > here.
> > > 
> > > thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,
> > > 
> > > --Joe
> > > 
> > > > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just 
> > > > explaining it.
> > > [snip]
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Mike,

I think you indeed do well to distinguish that there are various and varying 
conceptions and operational views of karma in different (Wisdom-) traditions, 

Conceptions and views differ also in the different sects, and sub-sects, of 
traditions.

Simply, karma originally means "action", not results of action.

There are three kinds of action: those of body, speech, and mind.

Actions -- those actions -- have results.

Positive actions create positive results; negative actions create negative 
results; neutral actions create neutral results.

This is why moment-by-moment behavior is so important (so influential on 
ourselves and others).  We create the conditions of our lives by what we do.

For the clarification of my view of this, I am indebted to The Rev. Nonin, 
Roshi; Abbot and Head Teacher of Nebraska Zen Canter / Heartland Temple, Omaha, 
NE, USA; a Soto Zen Buddhist Priest and Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin 
Katagiri Roshi.

Katagiriri Roshi (1928 - 1990) was a first-generation Japanese Soto Priest in 
USA, Founder and Abbot of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center, Minneapolis, MN, USA.

--Joe

> uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Edgar, There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on 
> from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma 
> will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies 
> themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can 
> happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma 
> to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy 
> notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make 
> emancipation from karma impossible.Here are a few snippets on the 
> subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the 
> research..>He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most 
> corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any 
> moment*** (buddhanet.net) 

Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to 
receive the effect, whether
 it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, 
just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level 
because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of 
the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is 
Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com) In the 
Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can 
be "purified" through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The 
performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience 
the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92](Wiki) The 
Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the 
power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in samsara.





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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Edgar, (and Bill!),

Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of 
them "quiet" -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly.  

It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names.

Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, 
but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans.

Please realize this.

Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations.  Please.

For the good of this Forum.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
> 
> Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of 
> which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional 
> nonsense and should be outed as such...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote:
> 
> > Edgar, Bill!,
> > 
> > This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone 
> > through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.
> > 
> > As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT 
> > appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which 
> > have nothing to do with the tradition.
> > 
> > That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated 
> > here.
> > 
> > thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,
> > 
> > --Joe
> > 
> > > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > 
> > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just 
> > > explaining it.
> > [snip]
> > 
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

PS: I doubt Jesus' feelings will be hurt by anything I say about the religion 
founded in his name that has little to do with him since he's been dead for 
some 2000 years. 

But if he was alive I suspect he'd be agreeing with me rather than Joe...

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> 
> Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of 
> which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional 
> nonsense and should be outed as such...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote:
> 
>>  
>> Edgar, Bill!,
>> 
>> This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone 
>> through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.
>> 
>> As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT 
>> appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which 
>> have nothing to do with the tradition.
>> 
>> That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here.
>> 
>> thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,
>> 
>> --Joe
>> 
>> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> > 
>> > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining 
>> > it.
>> [snip]
>> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, 
especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and 
should be outed as such...

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar, Bill!,
> 
> This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone 
> through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.
> 
> As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate 
> to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to 
> do with the tradition.
> 
> That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here.
> 
> thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > 
> > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining 
> > it.
> [snip]
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Hi Edgar & Mike,

Based on my witness, the Buddhist karma is slightly different from cause 
and effect.  Buddist karma is inherited via our subconsciousness.  It 
can be cleansed as per Mike's sutra quotations.


In other words, our subconsciousness causes us to act, often beyond the 
control of our logical mind.  That's what Buddhist Karma is referring 
to.  While phenomena of nature occurs based on cause and effect without 
human intervention.


I have witness karma cleansing also via my enlightened Master.

JM



On 6/28/2013 12:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


Edgar,

There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on 
from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, 
karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still 
identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original 
Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because 
where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're 
getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic 
and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.


Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out 
there if you care to do the research..


>He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for 
they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** 
(buddhanet.net)


>Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is 
no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to 
whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and 
death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the 
level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the 
Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one 
is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)


>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of 
negative past karma can be "purified" through such practices as 
meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after 
having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he 
or she otherwise would have.[92]

(Wiki)

>The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida 
Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind 
one in saṃsāra.[89][90]



Mike

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad



*From: * Edgar Owen ;
*To: * ;
*Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
*Sent: * Thu, Jun 27, 2013 1:07:05 PM

Mike,


No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just "be 
changed anytime". People are always bound by prior actions according 
to the karma theory.


You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea 
that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely 
forgiven.


Edgar



On Jun 27, 2013, at 5:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


Suresh,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here? Someone has the wrong 
understanding of karma. At least the karma a taught by Buddha. Karma 
is not the same as a fatalistic or determinative belief. Karma can be 
changed at anytime if the right actions/thoughts are performed. Also, 
it is wrong to judge another's circumstances as a result of good or 
bad karma - we can only workout are own.


Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad



*From: * Suresh ;
*To: * ;
*Subject: * [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
*Sent: * Thu, Jun 27, 2013 7:00:56 AM

Dear Joe,

I understand your concern.

The members of other forum describe that catastrophe as order of god 
or fate or Karma. I oppose as it is nothing to do with god, fate or 
Karma, it is science's cause and effect such as global warming and 
inadequate disaster management in the country and Carelessness of 
administrators.


I said, because of karma theory, people become lazy to do anything, 
because all is destined to happen even you do whatever to prevent. I 
want to remove that attitude and people should feel responsible for 
better living in this world, hence they have to work hard, the 
unknown god will not work for them.


This is what the whole emphasis is

Best regards
Suresh

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
>
> Suresh,
>
> I'm sorry, and have to admit, I am lost. I ask your help.
>
> The considerations in your transferred post go well beyond my 
little knowledge of Hindu scripture and tradition. And because I lack 
the context of the original motivation for your posting, I don't feel 
enthusiastic to delve deeply into this as a quite independent 
researcher.

>
> Perhaps if you were to summarize your concerns in a paragraph, or 
two, in simple terms, I might grasp it. Others here, might, too.

>
> But to be true to the working conditions of this Forum, I would 
need to make a connection with Z

[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Bill!,

Will you please moderate this fellow?  His continued blatant assertions are 
offensive and inappropriate in a civil forum.

w/ thanks!,

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> All religions are CRAZY. They are delusional nonsense long refuted by science.
> 
> Zen is revealing the truth about everything. It's not coddling organized 
> religion but pointing out it's an impediment to realization..
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:18 AM, Joe wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever 
> > -- to use the word "crazy" when referring to a religion. Such loose talk is 
> > the cause of trouble. You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, 
> > but you are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when 
> > you express them. Please desist in that.
> > 
> > thanks
> > 
> > --Joe
> > 
> > > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just "be 
> > > changed anytime". People are always bound by prior actions according to 
> > > the karma theory.
> > > 
> > > You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that 
> > > if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely 
> > > forgiven.
> > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Edgar, Bill!,

This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through 
to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct.

As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate 
to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to 
do with the tradition.

That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here.

thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration,

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
> 
> First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it.
[snip]





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[Zen] Re: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

[Joe]

Suresh,

 - CAUTION -- OFF-ZEN-TOPIC REPLY, and FACTUAL DATA-DUMP -

Mr. Begich is a bit of an alarmist, and has been so on this matter for two 
decades.  I think there is a large bit of hoaxing involved.

Also, glaringly, the figure quoted for the power radiated by the antenna array 
is incorrect.  It is not GigaWatts.

The HAARP station is isolated in wilderness, and not connected to the 
electrical power grid.  A diesel-powered generator is installed on-site to 
supply power for all its operations, including living quarters and 
control-room, and transmitter.  The capacity of that generator was upgraded 
last year, from one MegaWatt to TWO MegaWatts.

There are different ways to use the antenna array, and different ways to 
calculate the "EFFECTIVE RADIATED POWER" of the array at the height of the 
ionospheric layer that the experimenters wish to excite.  But of course the 
TOTAL Radiated Power cannot exceed the power generated by the generator.  So, 
the total radiated power is ALWAYS LESS THAN the power available.  That is, the 
total power is less than two MegaWatts.

Of course, in daylight hours, Sunlight pours through the ionosphere, with a 
power-density of about 1 kiloWatt per square meter.  Granted, this is not in 
the "radio-wave" part of the spectrum, but is a rather higher energy density 
than the HAARP array can muster.  A square of ionosphere just 45 meters on a 
side receives more energy in the form of Sunlight than the 2 MegaWatt HAARP 
generator can generate.

Well, a brief reply.  I encourage you not to worry!  Note that the wording and 
phraseology used in the article is alarmist.  This is not journalism; it is 
propaganda.  Rest easy, HAARP had nothingto do, and can have nothing to do, 
with India's flooding.

--Joe

> SURESH JAGADEESAN  wrote:
>
> A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP
> 
> We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling
> the weather.
> 
> We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most
> complex scientific subject.
> 
> The New World Order is coming! Are you ready?

[snip]





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Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

All religions are CRAZY. They are delusional nonsense long refuted by science.

Zen is revealing the truth about everything. It's not coddling organized 
religion but pointing out it's an impediment to realization..

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:18 AM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever -- 
> to use the word "crazy" when referring to a religion. Such loose talk is the 
> cause of trouble. You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, but you 
> are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when you express 
> them. Please desist in that.
> 
> thanks
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> > 
> > No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just "be 
> > changed anytime". People are always bound by prior actions according to the 
> > karma theory.
> > 
> > You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if 
> > you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven.
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

Agreed. So? That has nothing to do with the naive Buddhist & Hindu view of 
karma as doing good you'll get good in return and vice versa...

Argue your point with Bill. He's the one that claims it's not true...

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:16 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha wanted to find out 
> how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. His first premise 
> was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The actual are the 
> laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit at the feet 
> of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers to his 
> questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his 
> thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body 
> sensations changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe 
> does. These changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - 
> everything in the body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every 
> change in the body is caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. 
> Craving for things we don't have and want and aversion for the things we 
> have, but don't want. The (moral) action we take to satisfy our desires is 
> what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught and I see 
> no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and observed.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> 
> From: Edgar Owen ; 
> To: ; 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage 
> Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:29:08 PM 
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> 
> You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill 
> denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and 
> effect
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
>>  
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is "nonsense", but I 
>> agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are 
>> laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of 
>> the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, 
>> illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your 
>> hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or 
>> happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or 
>> suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and 
>> conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll 
>> reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, 
>> these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you 
>> recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha 
>> did and that's what I also witness.
>> 
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>> 
>> From: Edgar Owen ; 
>> To: ; 
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage 
>> Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM 
>> 
>>  
>> Mike,
>> 
>> First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining 
>> it.
>> 
>> Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to 
>> wade through it all..
>> 
>> Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's 
>> only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in 
>> general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. 
>> Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the 
>> world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of 
>> Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently.
>> 
>> Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all 
>> one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form 
>> altogether.
>> 
>> But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is 
>> equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to 
>> the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and 
>> reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good 
>> or bad, or enlightened or not.
>> 
>> Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen 
>> in the proper light.
>> 
>> That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just 
>> cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world 
>> of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil 
>> evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is 
>> doing the judging
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> 
>> > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
>> > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've bee

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Bill,

I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist 
and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of...

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction 
> between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and 
> > nirvana: "...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms 
> > but just sees them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms 
> > cease permanently."
> > 
> > I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your "...see 
> > them for what they truly are...".
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just 
> > > explaining it.
> > > 
> > > Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time 
> > > to wade through it all..
> > > 
> > > Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing 
> > > that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism 
> > > in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all 
> > > form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not 
> > > leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, 
> > > empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently.
> > > 
> > > Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through 
> > > all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape 
> > > form altogether.
> > > 
> > > But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying 
> > > is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms 
> > > cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of 
> > > forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases 
> > > whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not.
> > > 
> > > Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when 
> > > seen in the proper light.
> > > 
> > > That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is 
> > > just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves 
> > > the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget 
> > > good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best 
> > > depending on who is doing the judging
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> > > > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've 
> > > > been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a 
> > > > person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our 
> > > > Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished 
> > > > because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course 
> > > > you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is 
> > > > fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from 
> > > > karma impossible.Here are a few snippets on the subject. 
> > > > There are many, many more out there if you care to do the 
> > > > research..>He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the 
> > > > most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves 
> > > > ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature 
> > > > transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the 
> > > > effect, whether
> > > > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> > > > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the 
> > > > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one 
> > > > to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. 
> > > > Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is 
> > > > not applicable (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, 
> > > > it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be 
> > > > "purified" through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The 
> > > > performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not 
> > > > experience the negative results he or she otherwise would 
> > > > have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher 
> > > > Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma 
> > > > that would otherwise bind one in 
> > > > saṃsāra.[89][90]MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for 
> > > > iPad
> > >
> >
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Dear Suresh,

Yogacara is also referred to as the "Consciousness-Only" School, and sometimes 
as "Mind-Only".

It is based on the "Eight Consciousnesses".

Yogacara is still "alive", but it has been absorbed into other Schools, either 
entirely, or just in bits and pieces.  Zen Buddhism has absorbed some.

But Zen Buddhism really does not rely on any "fixed Dharma".

Yet, if Zen Buddhism has *any* philosophy, it seems to be both Yogacara, and 
Madhyamika, importantly.  Yogacara looks at Mind from the point of view of 
Delusion.  Madhyamika looks at Mind from the point of view of "Enlightenment", 
and Emptiness.

To me it seems wonderful and "wholesome" that Zen Buddhism embraces, 
encompasses, and yet transcends BOTH these views, ...which are philosophies 
that individually seem SO different viewed just on their own.

With best regards,

--Joe

> "Suresh"  wrote:
>
> Dear Joe,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.  I will read about Yogacara Buddhist
> philosophy.
> 
> Then come back to you.






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Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Bill,

OK, then the only disagreement is that I maintain your 'delusions' are PART of 
reality since I define reality as everything that exists without exception and 
you think delusions are NOT part of reality...

Without that additional step you don't realize the meaning of 'mountains are 
mountains again'. That's the realization that the illusions (delusions) are in 
fact the true nature of mountains but only as realized as the illusions they 
are

Of course the true nature of mountains like everything is the formless Buddha 
Nature but that manifests as all the illusory forms, therefore the illusory 
forms are form manifestations of Buddha Nature rather than something standing 
apart from it.

Without this realization you are stuck in the permanent dualism of a world 
consisting of Buddha Nature and of illusory forms.

The true understanding is the non-dualistic realization that illusory forms 
manifest Buddha Nature and thus they are part of Buddha Nature


Ah well, I don't expect you to get this but I keep trying...

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: 
> "...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just 
> sees them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms cease 
> permanently."
> 
> I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your "...see 
> them for what they truly are...".
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> > 
> > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining 
> > it.
> > 
> > Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time 
> > to wade through it all..
> > 
> > Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's 
> > only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in 
> > general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. 
> > Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the 
> > world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of 
> > Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently.
> > 
> > Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through 
> > all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form 
> > altogether.
> > 
> > But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is 
> > equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to 
> > the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and 
> > reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is 
> > good or bad, or enlightened or not.
> > 
> > Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen 
> > in the proper light.
> > 
> > That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just 
> > cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the 
> > world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and 
> > evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on 
> > who is doing the judging
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> > > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been 
> > > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person 
> > > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original 
> > > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where 
> > > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma 
> > > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or 
> > > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma 
> > > impossible.Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are 
> > > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..>He 
> > > who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, 
> > > too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** 
> > > (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all duality and 
> > > is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
> > > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> > > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the 
> > > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to 
> > > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at 
> > > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable 
> > > (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed 
> > > that the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such 
> > > practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, 
> > > after having purified th

[Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft

[Joe]

Mike,

I'm just not qualified to nominate you as a Zen master.  I am an un-transmitted 
Dharma Teacher in Sheng Yen's line, and still in training the next few years in 
USA and Taiwan in the details of running Ch'an retreat (Sesshin), and teaching 
to students.

I feel qualified to urge you and Chris to moderate, here, because I've seen 
both your civility, smarts, evidence of practice, and compassion, displayed on 
these boards.  Chris is right, though, that writings, even here, do not 
constitute knowing a person.  Kudos.

To be a Zen master, Mike, you'll need transmission from your Zen teacher.  It's 
an assent that the Apprentice Teacher is now a Journeyman Teacher, and an 
introduction and announcement to the world by the established teacher that this 
new teacher can do good work, is a willing member of the lineage, and is 
available to serve as a teacher.  So it's been, for 87 generations.

best!,

--Joe

> uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Joe, What? Are you saying I couldn't be a Zen master? I'll have you know I 
> read a book on Zen once. Well, ok - it was a pamphlet about the temple I was 
> visiting. But it was very informative pamphlet. With pictures and all.





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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Joe]

Edgar,

On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever -- 
to use the word "crazy" when referring to a religion.  Such loose talk is the 
cause of trouble.  You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, but you 
are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when you express 
them.  Please desist in that.

thanks

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Mike,
> 
> No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just "be changed 
> anytime". People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma 
> theory.
> 
> You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if 
> you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven.





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Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[uerusuboyo]

Edgar,There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha 
wanted to find out how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. 
His first premise was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The 
actual are the laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit 
at the feet of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers 
to his questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his 
thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body sensations 
changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe does. These 
changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - everything in the 
body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every change in the body is 
caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. Craving for things we don't 
have and want and aversion for the things we have, but don't want. The (moral) 
action we take to satisfy our
 desires is what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught 
and I see no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and 
observed.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Bill!]

Edgar,

As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between 
samadhi and nirvana?  ...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Edgar,
> 
> I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: 
> "...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just 
> sees them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms cease 
> permanently."
> 
> I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your  "...see 
> them for what they truly are...".
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> > 
> > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining 
> > it.
> > 
> > Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time 
> > to wade through it all..
> > 
> > Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's 
> > only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in 
> > general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. 
> > Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the 
> > world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of 
> > Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently.
> > 
> > Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through 
> > all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form 
> > altogether.
> > 
> > But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is 
> > equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to 
> > the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and 
> > reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is 
> > good or bad, or enlightened or not.
> > 
> > Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen 
> > in the proper light.
> > 
> > That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just 
> > cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the 
> > world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and 
> > evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on 
> > who is doing the judging
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> > > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been 
> > > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person 
> > > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original 
> > > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where 
> > > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma 
> > > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or 
> > > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma 
> > > impossible.Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are 
> > > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..>He 
> > > who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, 
> > > too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** 
> > > (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all duality and 
> > > is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
> > > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> > > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the 
> > > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to 
> > > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at 
> > > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable 
> > > (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed 
> > > that the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such 
> > > practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, 
> > > after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results 
> > > he or she otherwise would have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese 
> > > Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power 
> > > to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in 
> > > saṃsāra.[89][90]MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for 
> > > iPad
> >
>






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z

Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

[Bill!]

Edgar and Suresh,

Yes, I agree it is technically off-topic (OT), but as long as it doesn't get 
drug out too far a post like this now and then is okay with me.

But is is off-topic.  I didn't read it.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Suresh, and Bill,
> 
> Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum.
> 
> Bill these posts are OT don't you think?
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:
> 
> > A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP
> > 
> > We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling
> > the weather.
> > 
> > We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most
> > complex scientific subject.
> > 
> > The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what
> > this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually
> > implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily
> > news!!
> > 
> > Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones!
> > 
> > Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the
> > same way again.
> > 
> > YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE
> > 
> > The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it
> > simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot
> > of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the
> > most?
> > 
> > Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness?
> > 
> > Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore,
> > you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant
> > outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key
> > factor in creating such storms in the first place.
> > 
> > ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY
> > 
> > So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms?
> > 
> > The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell
> > you how much capability has been built into the newly created power
> > transmission station in remote Alaska.
> > 
> > These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they
> > are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into
> > the ionosphere in tremendous quantities.
> > 
> > "The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High
> > Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than
> > 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere --
> > the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere.
> > 
> > Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just
> > transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper
> > atmosphere'.
> > 
> > After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will
> > bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate
> > our bodies, the ground and the oceans." ["Angels Don't Play This
> > HAARP"]
> > 
> > Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. "..
> > 
> > . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of
> > power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain
> > the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed,
> > in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore
> > accomplished by the prior art "
> > 
> > "... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more
> > grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar
> > facilities.
> > 
> > HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in
> > a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into
> > practice."
> > 
> > Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed
> > into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so
> > it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down.
> > 
> > The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where
> > they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they
> > desired.
> > 
> > In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently
> > acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has
> > been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can
> > create all kinds of storms like hurricanes,
> > thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought.
> > 
> > In NEWS1198, "U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real", we report
> > news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather
> > Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed
> > close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities
> > without actually coming on to land to create devastation.
> > 
> > This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies.
> > Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be
> > created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire.
> > 
> > And, they cert

[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Bill!]

Edgar,

I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: 
"...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees 
them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana all forms cease permanently."

I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your  "...see them 
for what they truly are...".

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Mike,
> 
> First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it.
> 
> Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to 
> wade through it all..
> 
> Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's 
> only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general 
> (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a 
> state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms 
> but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In 
> nirvana all forms cease permanently.
> 
> Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all 
> one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form 
> altogether.
> 
> But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is 
> equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to 
> the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and 
> reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good 
> or bad, or enlightened or not.
> 
> Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen 
> in the proper light.
> 
> That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just 
> cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world 
> of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil 
> evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is 
> doing the judging
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been 
> > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person 
> > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original 
> > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where 
> > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma 
> > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or 
> > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma 
> > impossible.Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are 
> > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..>He who 
> > believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, 
> > have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** 
> > (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all duality and is 
> > ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
> > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the 
> > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to 
> > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at 
> > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable 
> > (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that 
> > the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such practices 
> > as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having 
> > purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she 
> > otherwise would have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese Tendai/Pure 
> > Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the 
> > karma that would otherwise bind one in 
> > saṃsāra.[89][90]MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for 
> > iPad
>





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Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill 
denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and 
effect

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is "nonsense", but I 
> agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are 
> laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the 
> universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or 
> delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still 
> burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still 
> depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just 
> random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow 
> morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the 
> observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are 
> conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that 
> there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's 
> what I also witness.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> 
> From: Edgar Owen ; 
> To: ; 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage 
> Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM 
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it.
> 
> Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to 
> wade through it all..
> 
> Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's 
> only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general 
> (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a 
> state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms 
> but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In 
> nirvana all forms cease permanently.
> 
> Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all 
> one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form 
> altogether.
> 
> But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is 
> equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to 
> the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and 
> reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good 
> or bad, or enlightened or not.
> 
> Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen 
> in the proper light.
> 
> That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just 
> cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world 
> of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil 
> evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is 
> doing the judging
> 
> Edgar
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been 
> > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person 
> > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original 
> > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where 
> > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma 
> > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or 
> > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma 
> > impossible.Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are 
> > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..>He who 
> > believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, 
> > have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** 
> > (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all duality and is 
> > ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
> > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the 
> > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to 
> > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at 
> > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable 
> > (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that 
> > the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such practices 
> > as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having 
> > purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she 
> > otherwise would have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese Tendai/Pure 
> > Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the 
> > karma that would otherwise bind one in 
> > saṃsāra.[89][90]Mik

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[uerusuboyo]

Edgar,You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is 
"nonsense", but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural 
world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we 
are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as 
real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your 
hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness 
will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not 
just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If 
tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that 
the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are 
conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that 
there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's 
what I also
 witness.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

[Edgar Owen]

Suresh,

Could you please end this thread on our Zen forum.

It's Off topic. Additional posts on this thread may result in moderation of 
your posts

Thanks,

Edgar
co-moderator of the group



On Jun 28, 2013, at 7:49 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Hi Edgar, Bill,
> 
> I think so...
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: Edgar Owen 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:45:13 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
> 
> Suresh, and Bill,
> 
> Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum.
> 
> Bill these posts are OT don't you think?
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:
> 
>> A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP
>> 
>> We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling
>> the weather.
>> 
>> We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most
>> complex scientific subject.
>> 
>> The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what
>> this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually
>> implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily
>> news!!
>> 
>> Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones!
>> 
>> Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the
>> same way again.
>> 
>> YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE
>> 
>> The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it
>> simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot
>> of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the
>> most?
>> 
>> Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness?
>> 
>> Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore,
>> you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant
>> outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key
>> factor in creating such storms in the first place.
>> 
>> ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY
>> 
>> So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms?
>> 
>> The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell
>> you how much capability has been built into the newly created power
>> transmission station in remote Alaska.
>> 
>> These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they
>> are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into
>> the ionosphere in tremendous quantities.
>> 
>> "The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High
>> Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than
>> 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere --
>> the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere.
>> 
>> Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just
>> transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper
>> atmosphere'.
>> 
>> After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will
>> bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate
>> our bodies, the ground and the oceans." ["Angels Don't Play This
>> HAARP"]
>> 
>> Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. "..
>> 
>> . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of
>> power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain
>> the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed,
>> in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore
>> accomplished by the prior art "
>> 
>> "... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more
>> grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar
>> facilities.
>> 
>> HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in
>> a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into
>> practice."
>> 
>> Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed
>> into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so
>> it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down.
>> 
>> The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where
>> they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they
>> desired.
>> 
>> In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently
>> acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has
>> been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can
>> create all kinds of storms like hurricanes,
>> thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought.
>> 
>> In NEWS1198, "U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real", we report
>> news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather
>> Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed
>> close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities
>> without actually coming on to land to create devastation.
>> 
>> This Russian company delivered, and 

Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

[siska_cen]

Hi Edgar, Bill,

I think so...

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Edgar Owen 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:45:13 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

Suresh, and Bill,

Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum.

Bill these posts are OT don't you think?

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:

> A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP
> 
> We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling
> the weather.
> 
> We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most
> complex scientific subject.
> 
> The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what
> this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually
> implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily
> news!!
> 
> Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones!
> 
> Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the
> same way again.
> 
> YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE
> 
> The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it
> simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot
> of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the
> most?
> 
> Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness?
> 
> Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore,
> you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant
> outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key
> factor in creating such storms in the first place.
> 
> ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY
> 
> So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms?
> 
> The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell
> you how much capability has been built into the newly created power
> transmission station in remote Alaska.
> 
> These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they
> are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into
> the ionosphere in tremendous quantities.
> 
> "The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High
> Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than
> 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere --
> the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere.
> 
> Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just
> transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper
> atmosphere'.
> 
> After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will
> bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate
> our bodies, the ground and the oceans." ["Angels Don't Play This
> HAARP"]
> 
> Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. "..
> 
> . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of
> power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain
> the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed,
> in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore
> accomplished by the prior art "
> 
> "... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more
> grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar
> facilities.
> 
> HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in
> a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into
> practice."
> 
> Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed
> into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so
> it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down.
> 
> The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where
> they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they
> desired.
> 
> In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently
> acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has
> been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can
> create all kinds of storms like hurricanes,
> thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought.
> 
> In NEWS1198, "U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real", we report
> news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather
> Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed
> close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities
> without actually coming on to land to create devastation.
> 
> This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies.
> Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be
> created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire.
> 
> And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our
> cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists
> have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on
> shore. Why are American scien

Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

[Edgar Owen]

Suresh, and Bill,

Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum.

Bill these posts are OT don't you think?

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:

> A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP
> 
> We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling
> the weather.
> 
> We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most
> complex scientific subject.
> 
> The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what
> this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually
> implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily
> news!!
> 
> Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones!
> 
> Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the
> same way again.
> 
> YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE
> 
> The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it
> simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot
> of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the
> most?
> 
> Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness?
> 
> Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore,
> you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant
> outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key
> factor in creating such storms in the first place.
> 
> ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY
> 
> So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms?
> 
> The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell
> you how much capability has been built into the newly created power
> transmission station in remote Alaska.
> 
> These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they
> are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into
> the ionosphere in tremendous quantities.
> 
> "The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High
> Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than
> 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere --
> the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere.
> 
> Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just
> transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper
> atmosphere'.
> 
> After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will
> bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate
> our bodies, the ground and the oceans." ["Angels Don't Play This
> HAARP"]
> 
> Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. "..
> 
> . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of
> power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain
> the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed,
> in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore
> accomplished by the prior art "
> 
> "... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more
> grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar
> facilities.
> 
> HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in
> a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into
> practice."
> 
> Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed
> into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so
> it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down.
> 
> The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where
> they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they
> desired.
> 
> In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently
> acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has
> been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can
> create all kinds of storms like hurricanes,
> thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought.
> 
> In NEWS1198, "U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real", we report
> news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather
> Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed
> close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities
> without actually coming on to land to create devastation.
> 
> This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies.
> Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be
> created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire.
> 
> And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our
> cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists
> have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on
> shore. Why are American scientists allowing extensive damage and lives
> lost to recent unprecedented storms, since they have the capability to
> keep these storms away from us?
> 
> Doesn't our own American Government have our best interests at heart?
> 
> Keep that thought in mind as we ex

Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it.

Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to 
wade through it all..

Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's 
only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general 
(there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a 
state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms 
but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In 
nirvana all forms cease permanently.

Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all 
one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form 
altogether.

But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is 
equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the 
dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach 
nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, 
or enlightened or not.

Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in 
the proper light.

That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just 
cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of 
forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is 
total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the 
judging

Edgar



On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been 
> taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still 
> identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature 
> (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the 
> self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused 
> with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which 
> would make emancipation from karma impossible.Here are a few 
> snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to 
> do the research..>He who believes in Karma does not condemn even 
> the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at 
> any moment*** (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all 
> duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
> it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, 
> just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level 
> because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of 
> the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is 
> Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable 
> (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that 
> the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such practices 
> as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having 
> purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she 
> otherwise would have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land 
> teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma 
> that would otherwise bind one in 
> saṃsāra.[89][90]MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad





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[Zen] HAARP: Weapon of Mass Destruction [1 Attachment]

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

<*>[Attachment(s) from SURESH JAGADEESAN included below]

Dear all,

Read attached article on HAARP, very interesting to learn

Below is from wikipedia

The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) is an
ionospheric research program jointly funded by the U.S. Air Force, the
U.S. Navy, the University of Alaska, and the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency (DARPA).[1]

Designed and built by BAE Advanced Technologies (BAEAT), its purpose
is to analyze the ionosphere and investigate the potential for
developing ionospheric enhancement technology for radio communications
and surveillance.[2] The HAARP program operates a major sub-arctic
facility, named the HAARP Research Station, on an Air Force–owned site
near Gakona, Alaska.

The most prominent instrument at the HAARP Station is the Ionospheric
Research Instrument (IRI), a high-power radio frequency transmitter
facility operating in the high frequency (HF) band. The IRI is used to
temporarily excite a limited area of the Ionosphere. Other
instruments, such as a VHF and a UHF radar, a fluxgate magnetometer, a
digisonde, and an induction magnetometer, are used to study the
physical processes that occur in the excited region.

Work on the HAARP Station began in 1993. The current working IRI was
completed in 2007, and its prime contractor was BAE Systems Advanced
Technologies.[1] As of 2008, HAARP had incurred around $250 million in
tax-funded construction and operating costs.

HAARP has been blamed by conspiracy theorists for a range of events,
including numerous natural disasters. Commentators and scientists say
that proponents of these theories are "uninformed".[3][4]

-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738


<*>Attachment(s) from SURESH JAGADEESAN:


<*> 1 of 1 File(s) 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/attachments/folder/1029219972/item/list 
  <*> tms_article_25570.pdf



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[Zen] Karma analysed.

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

This is not from me, but for discussing I am posting this, This is
Indian version of karma

Suresh

 Karma analysed.


As per Bhagavadgita ch 4,


Karma means the outward actions done in the pursuit of swadharma.


 Vikarma means total involvement of the mind therein.


We may bow to somebody, but that outward action is meaningless without
inner humility in the mind.


There should be unity between the inner and the outer.


I may worship the image of the Lord; but that act is worthless if it
is not accompanied with devotion.


In the absence of devotion, the idol will just be a piece of stone and
so shall I; and the worship will only mean that a stone is facing a
stone!




Desireless, selfless karmayoga is attained only when outward actions
are complemented with the inward action of the purification of mind.




When vikarma is united with karma, karma attains a divine radiance.




Vikarma, combined with karma, results in a powerful explosion of
energy, and then akarma is produced.


A big log of wood, when burnt, turns into just a handful of harmless ash.


In the same way karma, ignited by vikarma, ends up in producing akarma.




NOW SOME FUNDAMENTALS:-


WHAT IS KARMA ?:-.

KARMA means work, profession, duty.

 It means, action which binds one to samsaara.

 It can be accomplished by body, speech or by mind.(kaayika, vaachika
and maanasa).


It can also be classified as Sanchita(accumulated), prarabda (bearing
fruits in this life) and aagaami (being performed now).

The effect of karmas of one life cannot be exhausted in that life only.

 Hence punarjanma.

Jnaana or realisation of one's nature as the immortal soul destroys
sanchita karma and make aagaami incapable of producing
results.

 However, praarabda karma has to be exhausted only by experiencing it.

Karma is of two kinds- nishiddha karma(prohibited) and vihita karma
(duty to be performed).

 The vihita karma could be either Kaamya karma, nitya karma and
naimitthika karma- desire motivated, daily duties, and


occasional.


Karmas may also be classified according to their nature.-good or bad.

 Actions without being tainted by selfish motives are called saatvika.

 If they are mixed with likes and dislikes, they could be raajasika.

 If motivated by evil designs, they are taamasika.


As long as we identify ourselves with the body-mind complex we undergo
constantly the transmigration brought out by the
Karmas.



SOOTHASAMHITHA describes four kinds of Moksha:

SAALOKYA - living in the same world as God.

SAAROOPYA- having a similar form as God.

SAAMEEPYA- living near God.

SAAYUJYA- getting identified with God.


Thaittareeya samhitha, Eithareya brahmana, Brihadaaranyaka and
Chaandogya Upanishads also contain these ideas.

Destruction of Ignorance through Knowledge of the self is the sure way
to MokSha.

 But there are others who advocate nishkaama karma or Bhakti as the
means to attain moksha.




PRAARABDA KARMAS.


The karmas which have already started giving their results are the
praarabda karmas.


It is these which have caused the present birth.


Praarabda karmas also decide on the duration of space as well as
various experiences -


good or bad.


Like an arrow once released cannot be taken back, even jeevanmuktas are seen to


 suffer these effects.



Bhagavadgita third chapter:-

After goading Arjuna  for action, the Lord puts it to him to convert
bondage creating karma to bondage breaking karma yoga.




He also emphasizes on the supremacy of JNANA – the spiritual illumination.




Both the paths-karma and Jnana-are conducive to the knowledge of the Self.




Sree Ramakrishna says that we should make a knot of the fact that the
goal of life is to merge in Godhood (in a corner of your




angavastra) and then plunge in the discharge of our duties.






The three gunas-satva, raja and tama –are always in a flux.




While entangled in prakriti, it is impossible to renounce karma.




As long as we are suffering from the disease of ignorance, we cannot
go out of the hospital of Prakriti.




The treatment is Karma and the moment we are cured with the knowledge
of the Self, we are discharged from the hospital of




Prakriti.



Karma by itself is neither good nor bad.




It is the motive behind it that makes it bad or good.




When the ego gets obliterated, the action becomes sacred.




 Ego can be compared to an onion.




If we go on peeling the skin of the onion one by one, nothing is left
in the end!!




Thoughts, words and deeds have to be directed towards the good of the
world and to the glory of the Lord.




All creatures are to be respected as various manifestations of the
Lord Narayana.




When any work is performed with the right frame of mind, it becomes a Yagnya.







.






-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you rec

[Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP

We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling
the weather.

We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most
complex scientific subject.

The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what
this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually
implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily
news!!

Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones!

Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the
same way again.

YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE

The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it
simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot
of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the
most?

Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness?

Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore,
you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant
outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key
factor in creating such storms in the first place.

ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY

So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms?

The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell
you how much capability has been built into the newly created power
transmission station in remote Alaska.

These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they
are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into
the ionosphere in tremendous quantities.

"The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High
Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than
1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere --
the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere.

Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just
transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper
atmosphere'.

After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will
bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate
our bodies, the ground and the oceans." ["Angels Don't Play This
HAARP"]

Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. "..

. this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of
power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain
the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed,
in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore
accomplished by the prior art "

"... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more
grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar
facilities.

HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in
a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into
practice."

Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed
into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so
it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down.

The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where
they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they
desired.

In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently
acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has
been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can
create all kinds of storms like hurricanes,
thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought.

In NEWS1198, "U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real", we report
news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather
Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed
close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities
without actually coming on to land to create devastation.

This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies.
Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be
created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire.

And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our
cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists
have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on
shore. Why are American scientists allowing extensive damage and lives
lost to recent unprecedented storms, since they have the capability to
keep these storms away from us?

Doesn't our own American Government have our best interests at heart?

Keep that thought in mind as we examine still more aspects of this
HAARP technology that is pouring such enormous quantities of energy
into our upper atmosphere.

Researches quickly found that this technology could be used in ways
other than just to control the weather.

They discovered they had stumbled upon a weapon which could be used
most effectively, to destroy, destroy, and destroy some more, with the
vast majority of the peoples of the w

[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Suresh]

Dear Joe,

Thanks for the reply.  I will read about Yogacara Buddhist
philosophy.

Then come back to you.

Brgds
Suresh

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
>
> Suresh,
> 
> Your approach seems good, and practical.
> 
> I suppose there is a large weight of comfort in shared tradition, and in 
> communal acceptance of outcomes, due to the understanding of karma that 
> people hold.  Perhaps "comfort" is not nearly the correct word, in the dire 
> circumstances, however.
> 
> In the Zen Buddhist tradition, although there is also an acceptance of an 
> understanding of karma, one (a Person, a Practitioner; a Culture; a Country; 
> or, a World!) must still work for a changed outcome, and not simply accept 
> where karma has BROUGHT you, up to today.  In other words, one must (1.) 
> admit the problem; (2.) take responsibility; and (3.) one must work devotedly.
> 
> For example, even if one's "personal" karma has been very *GOOD* -- and 
> allowed you to be born as a Human Being, and further, allowed you to find the 
> traces to Zen Buddhism so that you might practice with a good teacher, and 
> sangha -- nonetheless, one must still indeed practice, NOW.  In other words, 
> even GOOD karma CANNOT BREAK NEW GROUND.  One must stand on the ground of 
> one's good karma and break new ground for oneself, and for all Beings.  Well, 
> that is the Mahayana Buddhist view, and program -- of which Zen Buddhism 
> partakes.
> 
> By the way, there is no conflict or inconsistency in Zen Buddhism between the 
> notion of the non-existence of a personal self, and yet the notion of a 
> reincarnation due to karma, or a "survival" of karma. 
> 
> This is especially easy to see however, in the karma of a Collective, such as 
> a Culture, a Country, or a World.  Often, prior acts of a Tribe or a Culture 
> come to "define" it, and give it a lasting character, which lasts and evolves 
> a very long time, for tens or hundreds of generations.  And the acts of a 
> Country do the same.  Ditto, a World (but your view has to be very broad, 
> there to see this).
> 
> For the karma of an Individual, the Zen Buddhist understanding is taken and 
> shared from Yogacara Buddhism, in which this karma is stored in the Alaya 
> Vijnana.  A brilliantly successful model!  But Yogacara is not just a 
> Philosophical system: it is (was...) also a school of Practice.  Its teaching 
> and transmission lineages have all died out, however.
> 
> The way you summarize and describe your view here is very clear, and very 
> accessible.  It has considerable "power".  I hope you will have good success 
> communicating the view at your other forums, also.  I think there is much 
> respect in India for Science and technology, and more and more with time, and 
> people not only understand karma, but also the mechanisms of general "cause 
> and effect".
> 
> Perhaps a more "scientific" view of karma can be found in Yogacara Buddhist 
> philosophy: will you take a look at it?  You may be able to incorporate a bit 
> of it, and its terminology, in your posts to traditional Hindus.  I don't 
> know if this will help!  It seems as if you have a good facility with plain 
> ordinary language, anyway.  
> 
> Still, the Yogacara model might interest you personally. 
> 
> Continued good success!,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Suresh"  wrote:
> >
> > Dear Joe,
> > 
> > I understand your concern.
> > 
> > The members of other forum describe that catastrophe as order of god or 
> > fate or Karma. I oppose as it is nothing to do with god, fate or Karma, it 
> > is science's cause and effect such as global warming and inadequate 
> > disaster management in the country and Carelessness of administrators.
> > 
> > I said, because of karma theory, people become lazy to do anything, because 
> > all is destined to happen even you do whatever to prevent. I want to remove 
> > that attitude and people should feel responsible for better living in this 
> > world, hence they have to work hard, the unknown god will not work for them.
> > 
> > This is what the whole emphasis is 
> > 
> > Best regards
> > Suresh
>






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[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[Bill!]

Edgar, Mike, Suresh, et al...

I think this is just the same old conundrum associated with Dependent Arising 
vs. Independent Existence (Buddhism) and Predestination vs. Free Will 
(Christian).

I'm staying out of this discussion for the most part because as most of you 
know already I think 'karma' is a delusion.  (I'm using the term 'delusion' now 
instead of 'illusion' but it's the same thing.)  Just plain old vanilla 
cause-and-effect is hard enough to swallow without adding moralistic or 
good/bad riders onto it.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also 
> depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been 
> taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still 
> identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature 
> (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the 
> self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused 
> with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which 
> would make emancipation from karma impossible.Here are a few 
> snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to 
> do the research..>He who believes in Karma does not condemn even 
> the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at 
> any moment*** (buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all 
> duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
>  it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and 
> effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened 
> level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the 
> effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, 
> when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable 
> (angel-fire.com)<>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that 
> the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such practices 
> as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having 
> purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she 
> otherwise would have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land 
> teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma 
> that would otherwise bind one in 
> saṃsāra.[89][90]MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>





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[Zen][Anger][Oh! I see now!] Re: moderation

[Bill!]

Thanks!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺妙精明 （JMJM）  wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Such as this one.  Please note the subject line.
> JM
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/27/2013 7:05 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > JMJM,
> >
> > So how do you insert these tags?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
> > 覺妙精明 （JMJM）  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > >
> > > As per Buddha's teaching, when we are attached to form, five poison
> > > arises. They are [greed], [anger], [delusion], [arrogance],
> > > [suspicion]. Buddha also remind us to avoid the four notions. They are
> > > notions of [self],[human][sentient being],[death]. Then Buddha asked us
> > > to drop the [attachment to self] and [attachment to dharma]. These are
> > > fundamental practices of Chan. I see them rampant through out Zen Forum.
> > >
> > > These are tags we can insert into subject line. So that we all can
> > > learn and be awakened from them.
> > >
> > > Because moderation disables our ability to encounter these issues, 
> > while
> > > these are the issues we can grow from. These are part of our practice
> > > and necessary mirrors for each of us to reflect from.
> > >
> > > Let me know if you have more questions.
> > > JM
> > >
> > > On 6/27/2013 1:33 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > >
> > > > JMJM,
> > > >
> > > > Interesting suggestion. I guess it's the new e-version of 'The 
> > Scarlet
> > > > Letter'.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure what 'tagging' is or how to do it, but I will discuss
> > > > this with Edgar and let everyone know our decision.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >  
> > ,
> > > > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž （
> > > > JMJM）  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Edgar & Bill, moderators,
> > > > >
> > > > > Chan is ALL, which means all attachments, delusions, angers are 
> > part of
> > > > > Chan. We learn and wake up from them. These are our home work. These
> > > > > are part of our everyday practice. The sixth Patriarch said, 
> > "Dharma is
> > > > > in the secular world. Buddha is enlightened inside the secular 
> > world."
> > > > >
> > > > > Instead of moderation, may I suggest [tagging].
> > > > >
> > > > > When anyone is lost in form, and the five poisons or the 
> > discrimination
> > > > > mind arises, you tag them with [labels] in the subject line. 
> > This way
> > > > > everyone can learn and be awakened from them.
> > > > >
> > > > > With palms together,
> > > > > JM
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Attempts to deliberately steer the weather

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

The unseasonal snow that fell on Beijing for 11 hours on Sunday was
the earliest and heaviest there has been for years. It was also, China
claims, man-made. By the end of last month, farmland in the already
dry north of China was suffering badly due to drought. So on Saturday
night China's meteorologists fired 186 explosive rockets loaded with
chemicals to "seed" clouds and encourage snow to fall. "We won't miss
any opportunity of artificial precipitation since Beijing is suffering
from a lingering drought," Zhang Qiang, head of the Beijing Weather
Modification Office, told state media.

The US has tinkered with such cloud seeding to increase water flow
from the Sierra Nevada mountains in California since the 1950s, but
there remains widespread scientific sniffiness in the west at such
attempts at weather control. The chemicals fired into the sky, usually
dry ice or silver iodide, are supposed to provide a surface for water
vapour to form liquid rain. But there is little evidence that it works
– after all, how do investigating scientists know it would not have
rained anyway?

Such doubts have not stopped China claiming mastery over the clouds.
Officials said the blue skies that brightened Beijing's parade to
celebrate 60 years of communism last month were a result of the 18
cloud-seeding jets and 432 explosive rockets scrambled to empty the
sky of rain beforehand. Last year, more than 1,000 rockets were fired
to ensure a dry night for last year's Olympic opening ceremony.

"Only a handful of countries in the world could organise such
large-scale, magic-like weather modification," Cui Lianqing, a senior
meteorologist with the Chinese air force, told the Xinhua news agency
after last month's parade.

Magic or not, there is growing interest in such attempts to
deliberately steer the weather, and on a much larger scale. Next
spring, a group of the world's leading experts on climate change will
gather in California to plan how it could be done as a way to tackle
global warming, and by whom. The ideas, some of which, similar to
cloud-seeding, involve firing massive amounts of chemicals into the
atmosphere, can sound far-fetched, but they are racing up the agenda
as pessimism grows about the likely course of global warming.

As interest grows, so does concern about whether such techniques,
known as geoengineering, could be developed and unleashed by a single
nation, or even a wealthy individual, without wide international
approval. "What will happen when Richard Branson decides he really
does want to save the planet?" asks one climate expert. If China
thinks it can make cloud seeding work, then what about geoengineering?

"If climate change turns ugly, then many countries will start looking
at desperate measures," says David Victor, an energy policy expert at
Stanford University and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign
Relations. "Logic points to a big risk of unilateral geoengineering.
Unlike controlling emissions, which requires collective action, most
highly capable nations could deploy geoengineering systems on their
own."


-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738




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Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage

[uerusuboyo]

Edgar,There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends 
on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma 
will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies 
themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen 
at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to 
attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion 
that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation 
from karma impossible.Here are a few snippets on the subject. There 
are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..>He who 
believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have 
their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** 
(buddhanet.net)<>Since basic nature transcends all duality and is 
ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether
 it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, 
just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level 
because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of 
the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is 
Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)<>In 
the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma 
can be "purified" through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The 
performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience 
the negative results he or she otherwise would 
have.[92](Wiki)>The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin 
taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would 
otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]MikeSent from 
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