Re: DIS: A proto
Jason Cobb via agora-discussion [2022-08-29 13:23]:
> We now have a player who is directly responsible for three FAGEs. I
> believe that it's time we discuss a mechanism similar to the one below.
>
>
> Title: Unfortunately
> Author: Jason
> Coauthors:
> Adoption index: 3.0
>
> {
>
> Amend Rule 869 by appending the following paragraph:
> {
>
> Banned is a secured negative boolean person switch. A person is
> unwelcome if e is Banned or if at least one part of em is unwelcome.
> Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, an unwelcome person CANNOT
> register or be registered, and e is immediately deregistered if e is
> ever a player. Designations of unwelcomeness are secured.
>
> }
>
> }
I'll argue the following in principle. My only assumption is that there
has been an injustice commited by some member of our community against
another one.
We are all dreaming.
Agora is a colletive dream. As are all games, in fact. But games, of
Nomic or otherwise, invariably involve people, and people live real
lives. That creates a strange liminal space where fiction meets reality,
and rules for any longstanding game must legislate on actions that are
not bound by the limits of its fiction.
That is the case for rules defining concepts such as “people”, which
must by necessity conjure a bit of ontology. Or rules stipulating how
players are to be registered, or in which forums the matters of the game
are to be discussed. Or, as is the case, rules, or the abscence thereof,
that cristalize our community's position on injustice and its remedies.
That brings us to the proposal. It saddens and surprises me that we
should need something like it. In my innocence, I chose to believe a
game where all is possible would also be free from the messy politics of
the real world. But everything is political.
So be it. And so we must tread in choosing our policy on injustice:
politically. Not the fictional kind, but the real one, the one that
hurts.
I admire the simplicity of the proposal, as it lets the polis decide how
justice is to be carried out. It would seem to be neutral, atemporal.
But it's not. In adopting it, we would be stating clearly that we
believe in ostracism, and, most worringly for me, that we believe in
punishment for life.
I'm not arguing against these values, though I might in due opportunity,
but I'm stressing this: we are not dealing with fiction any more. This
is real. And so, we must not play.
Concretely, I believe a self-moderated community should implement a form
of restorative justice. I am not well-versed in this area, but I see an
opportunity for us to create something new and valuable. I posit we
should invest in the idea of a just Agora. We should take this
seriously.
Even more concretely, I point the following, just out of the top of my
head:
* Bans should not be permanent. There should be a way to appeal them,
and they should have time limits (though those can be unspecified and
unlimited). Times change, and so should we.
* We should have formal processes that implement some form of
restorative justice, upon whose failure, and only then, extreme
measures such as ostracism should prevail.
I don't believe in punishment, fiction notwithstanding, and so I don't
believe ostracism to be a punishment. It is – it must be – only the
final, most bitter remedy for an injustice so grievous, and so
collective, that there is no possible restoration. It is grave. I'd even
come to the point of saying it needs to be a unanimous decision.
Above all, if people are getting hurt, we must take this seriously.
--
juan
Re: DIS: A proto
On 8/29/2022 2:28 PM, juan via agora-discussion wrote: > I'll argue the following in principle. My only assumption is that there > has been an injustice commited by some member of our community against > another one. To keep this a brief and neutral explanation, this happened in the Discord forum. The moderators there have (following Discord rules generally) a set of forum rules[0] by consensus with those who use the Discord server. One player has had to be warned repeatedly and more than most, and posted something yesterday that led to nix (a moderator) deregistering from Agora in a writ of FAGE, earlier today. The player in question was temporarily kicked (not banned). Identities and all the interactions are visible on discord; I'm personally not posting details (there are several others who can) because I don't want to drag people in who don't want to be involved without some warning through this email - fair warning after this email, I suppose. > Above all, if people are getting hurt, we must take this seriously. 100% agree. Anytime there's a writ of FAGE, I think Agora needs to take a bit of time, care, effort, and introspection into making the game welcoming for all. [0] For reference, here are the Discord forum rules: Welcome to the Agora Nomic Discord server! This server was created as a place to discuss Agora, but anyone is welcome here. RULES 1. Violations of rules may receive a warning from a moderator. Multiple warnings may result in a ban. If you see a violation @Moderator. If you disagree with a warning, take it up with the moderators in DMs. 2. Take all potentially sensitive conversations to threads. When in doubt, make a thread. A moderator may make a thread for you. All rules must still be followed in threads. 3. No discrimination, derogatory comments, or objectification of any person or group based on identity. This includes devil's advocacy, or other insincere or bad faith arguments. 4. If someone expresses discomfort with a conversation, immediately stop engaging them in it.
Re: DIS: A proto
On 8/29/22 13:23, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > We now have a player who is directly responsible for three FAGEs. I > believe that it's time we discuss a mechanism similar to the one below. Correction on this: directly responsible for one successful FAGE and one attempted FAGE that failed on a technicality. I was misremembering some additional heated discussion that e was responsible for as ending in a FAGE. -- Jason Cobb Arbitor, Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
Re: DIS: A proto
I know that nix has been offended by my 4chan-adjacent way of talking in the past. If it's about that, I accept the guilt. But if it's about my political arguments, I don't think that a Fage should be summoned because of that. In the same way that the US people are heavily influenced by their own anglosphere and local ideologies, I'm just some guy who is also heavily influenced by my own local ideologies. We won't always agree, and I don't mind that. You can check the Discord's #very-serious-agoran-business for what went down, but here's my report on what I understand to be, at the moment, nix's final straw. I believe there may have been some accidental misinterpretation from nix (some others have pointed it out eg. what I said in regards to feminism), so I'll go more in depth in what I said and wanted to argue. - So I was conversing with Aspen about language - I brought up the Real Academia Española, which is basically the Spanish office of Spanish Language for what is officially Actually Spanish Language. They publish dictionaries and grammar stuff regularly. It's the closest thing to an objective way to determine what is *correct* Spanish and what isn't, it's been considered that for years by Spanish schools and academia and whatnot. And the RAE does not support gender-neutral Spanish as actual Spanish. - Then I got a reply from Aspen which I found it to be misguided and holier-than-thou. I disliked it. But at the end of the day, I really don't mind. I am OK with them thinking and arguing that way: "I guess, my point is, there's probably some period of time when (some) people understand a word but it isn't officialized yet." "And if people use e, just because it hasn't been officialized, that doesn't make it *incorrect.*" - I compared this to Sharia Law, because Aspen's argument seems to imply that there's some new, 'correct' rule (or at least, 'not incorrect') to things that other people just haven't caught onto yet. That, it's alright and 'not incorrect' to use Spivak. Well, I argue that yes, sure, and the Sharia Law supporters feel similarly, that other nations are misguided and that Sharia Law in their jurisdiction is 'not incorrect'. To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. This is related to, but still separate from my next point, which is more about culture rather than what rules are correct or not. - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, I also explained how other things have arrived to Spain by US cultural export, like modern feminism, and how Spain lagged behind it by 1-2 years after it got really big in the US. There's truth in the Spanish lover stereotype where shirtless handsome men on a horse treat doe-eyed women as helpless children and sweep them off their feet to carry them off - Spain is extremely sexist (it's very "machista"). Feminism is prevalent in Europe nowadays and instead of focusing on nourishing and empowering women with education and employment opportunity like Nordic countries do, Spain focuses more on victimizing and protecting women and giving them direct financial aid. I find it babying, in comparison to Nordic countries, but I get why they do it, because Spain is still very machista. Regardless of if its good or bad, it's just how the culture here is. In any case, modern feminism is a foreign-imported idea to Spain. And so neolanguage. Beyond how interconnected we all are always, both are movements that most heavily originated in the US and are foreign cultural import to Spain. That was my point. On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 8/29/22 13:23, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > > We now have a player who is directly responsible for three FAGEs. I > > believe that it's time we discuss a mechanism similar to the one below. > > > Correction on this: directly responsible for one successful FAGE and one > attempted FAGE that failed on a technicality. > > I was misremembering some additional heated discussion that e was > responsible for as ending in a FAGE. > > -- > Jason Cobb > > Arbitor, Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason > >
Re: DIS: A proto
On 8/30/22 02:51, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > I know that nix has been offended by my 4chan-adjacent way of talking in > the past. If it's about that, I accept the guilt. > > But if it's about my political arguments, I don't think that a Fage should > be summoned because of that. In the same way that the US people are heavily > influenced by their own anglosphere and local ideologies, I'm just some guy > who is also heavily influenced by my own local ideologies. We won't always > agree, and I don't mind that. My "local ideology" was firmly firmly conservative. I grew up in the rural midwest. The US isn't the ideological monolith you paint it as. I suspect Spain isn't either. I don't blame my upbringing on my values, I choose my own. Shame you can't seem to do the same. -- nix
Re: DIS: A proto
On 8/29/22 16:28, juan via agora-discussion wrote: > Concretely, I believe a self-moderated community should implement a form > of restorative justice. I am not well-versed in this area, but I see an > opportunity for us to create something new and valuable. I posit we > should invest in the idea of a just Agora. We should take this > seriously. Restorative justice is a great idea. I wrote a few protos on it in the discord a while back, I'm sure someone can dig them up. > Even more concretely, I point the following, just out of the top of my > head: > > * Bans should not be permanent. There should be a way to appeal them, >and they should have time limits (though those can be unspecified and >unlimited). Times change, and so should we. > > * We should have formal processes that implement some form of >restorative justice, upon whose failure, and only then, extreme >measures such as ostracism should prevail. > > I don't believe in punishment, fiction notwithstanding, and so I don't > believe ostracism to be a punishment. It is – it must be – only the > final, most bitter remedy for an injustice so grievous, and so > collective, that there is no possible restoration. It is grave. I'd even > come to the point of saying it needs to be a unanimous decision. I admire your idealism, but I just think you're wrong about how grievous it has to be. Sometimes restoration isn't possible because someone involved refuses to engage in a restorative process. Madrid responded with "you shouldn't even be allowed to be mad at that, it's just who I am." So e's clearly not interested at this time in understanding how eir actions might have impacts. If your idealism aligns with protecting the person that makes other people so uncomfortable that they quit, because they haven't done anything **too serious**, then congrats because that's what you currently have. -- nix
Re: DIS: A proto
On 8/30/2022 6:33 AM, nix via agora-discussion wrote: > On 8/29/22 16:28, juan via agora-discussion wrote: >> Concretely, I believe a self-moderated community should implement a form >> of restorative justice. I am not well-versed in this area, but I see an >> opportunity for us to create something new and valuable. I posit we >> should invest in the idea of a just Agora. We should take this >> seriously. > > Restorative justice is a great idea. I wrote a few protos on it in the > discord a while back, I'm sure someone can dig them up. > >> Even more concretely, I point the following, just out of the top of my >> head: >> >> * Bans should not be permanent. There should be a way to appeal them, >>and they should have time limits (though those can be unspecified and >>unlimited). Times change, and so should we. >> >> * We should have formal processes that implement some form of >>restorative justice, upon whose failure, and only then, extreme >>measures such as ostracism should prevail. >> >> I don't believe in punishment, fiction notwithstanding, and so I don't >> believe ostracism to be a punishment. It is – it must be – only the >> final, most bitter remedy for an injustice so grievous, and so >> collective, that there is no possible restoration. It is grave. I'd even >> come to the point of saying it needs to be a unanimous decision. > > I admire your idealism, but I just think you're wrong about how grievous > it has to be. Sometimes restoration isn't possible because someone > involved refuses to engage in a restorative process. Madrid responded > with "you shouldn't even be allowed to be mad at that, it's just who I > am." So e's clearly not interested at this time in understanding how eir > actions might have impacts. > > If your idealism aligns with protecting the person that makes other > people so uncomfortable that they quit, because they haven't done > anything **too serious**, then congrats because that's what you > currently have. I would also like to note for newer players that this is a long-running pattern going back to 2017, not a single incident. The issue we have is a parade of single incidents, never quite "bad enough" for action but also never really backed off from - to the point that others (including me) also just avoid/leave discord on a regular basis to avoid. It is specific incidents with Madrid that led to making formal forum rules in the first place, and at some point "repeat repeat warnings" get very tiring, and make it no longer a comfortable place to be. -G.
Re: DIS: A proto
[I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to lay out.] Madrid wrote: > - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to use e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the *Agoran* culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when almost nobody else did. In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it because my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running culture": https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-June/035225.html And nix called you out then, too: https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-June/035228.html After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else since I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I come here to play this game. Madrid wrote: > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is *internal* not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 years is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, traditions that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a weird oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught up in some places. And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well the difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike many under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no consequences. This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. This one probably just isn't a good fit. -G.
Re: DIS: A proto
Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak removed. On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > [I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this > further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to > lay out.] > > Madrid wrote: > > - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage > > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, > > This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, > well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to use > e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the *Agoran* > culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ > players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero > of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific > American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the > pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was > passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when > almost nobody else did. > > In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those > who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, > including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only > response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it because > my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running > culture": > > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/ > agora-business/2017-June/035225.html > > And nix called you out then, too: > > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/ > agora-business/2017-June/035228.html > > After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else since > I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was > explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I > come here to play this game. > > Madrid wrote: > > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like > > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to > > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need > > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. > > You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is *internal* > not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 years > is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, traditions > that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a weird > oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught > up in some places. > > And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly > ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well the > difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike many > under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no > consequences. > > This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS > PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. > This one probably just isn't a good fit. > > -G. >
Re: DIS: A proto
(I agree with the other points though. My perspective was/is largely mostly concerned with the recent context and I suspect that it has a similar significant influence on others too, because this historical arcana isn't obvious. Although if the argument ever was 'this is tradition, that's why it has to stay like this' I'm not for that either regardless.) On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Madrid wrote: > Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > > It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak removed. > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> [I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this >> further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to >> lay out.] >> >> Madrid wrote: >> > - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage >> > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, >> >> This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, >> well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to use >> e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the *Agoran* >> culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ >> players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero >> of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific >> American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the >> pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was >> passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when >> almost nobody else did. >> >> In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those >> who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, >> including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only >> response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it because >> my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running >> culture": >> >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora >> -business/2017-June/035225.html >> >> And nix called you out then, too: >> >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora >> -business/2017-June/035228.html >> >> After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else since >> I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was >> explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I >> come here to play this game. >> >> Madrid wrote: >> > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like >> > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to >> > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need >> > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. >> >> You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is *internal* >> not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 years >> is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, traditions >> that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a weird >> oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught >> up in some places. >> >> And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly >> ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well the >> difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike many >> under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no >> consequences. >> >> This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS >> PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. >> This one probably just isn't a good fit. >> >> -G. >> >
Re: DIS: A proto
On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > > It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak > removed. I would prefer to keep Spivak, not so much due to the tradition, but due to the effects on conversation we'd have if we removed it. Gender is something that generally doesn't, and almost certainly shouldn't, matter at Agora, so the only benefit to using gendered pronouns would be to force constant reminders of people's genders on us for no obvious reason, and that's something that tends to make me uncomfortable (i.e. being forced to think about people as genders, rather than thinking about people as individuals). This is a problem in a wide number of contexts, but Agora's solution is very simple and straightforward. (I also note that the problem is more complicated at Agora than elsewhere, because Agora sometimes has non-sentient persons, typically legal fictions, in addition to the humans. Normally these would be "it" but we need to try to cover them with the same pronouns as the human players.) I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes it easier to parse what a rule is saying). -- ais523
Re: DIS: A proto
this sucks, so i guess it's as good a time as any to stop watching the distros. thanks for the memories everyone On Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 11:14 AM Madrid via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > > It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak removed. > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > [I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this > > further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to > > lay out.] > > > > Madrid wrote: > > > - To further illustrate how the current push for > neopronouns/neolanguage > > > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, > > > > This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, > > well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to > use > > e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the > *Agoran* > > culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ > > players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero > > of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific > > American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the > > pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was > > passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when > > almost nobody else did. > > > > In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those > > who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, > > including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only > > response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it > because > > my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running > > culture": > > > > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/ > > agora-business/2017-June/035225.html > > > > And nix called you out then, too: > > > > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/ > > agora-business/2017-June/035228.html > > > > After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else > since > > I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was > > explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I > > come here to play this game. > > > > Madrid wrote: > > > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like > > > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to > > > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need > > > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. > > > > You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is > *internal* > > not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 > years > > is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, > traditions > > that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a > weird > > oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught > > up in some places. > > > > And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly > > ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well > the > > difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike > many > > under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no > > consequences. > > > > This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS > > PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. > > This one probably just isn't a good fit. > > > > -G. > > >
Re: DIS: A proto
On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak >> removed. [snip] > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). > Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based on "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of evaluating our community standards continuously but generally respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently-standing practices. That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond any historical points or future changes. -G.
Re: DIS: A proto
On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > >> > >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak > >> removed. > > [snip] > > > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if > > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, > > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real > > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes > > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). > > > > Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based on > "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of > evaluating our community standards continuously but generally > respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an > isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single > unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable > accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently-standing > practices. > > That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond any > historical points or future changes. > > -G. > > I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players always by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our odd little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free to advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find them odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did start with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the player base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work for them, they should do so. What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and women expressed on discord, which I think is quite consistently discriminatory. E has also made remarks about racial differences (deleted by moderator) which in my view were discriminatory. To be clear, I don't remotely feel emotionally threatened by Madrid, nor do I feel like e personally discriminates against or devalues other players including myself - which is why I don't want to ban em. E is, perhaps unfortunately, quite good at confining these conversations to the abstract. But I do want to make it clear that I think women ought not be needlessly sexualised, trans people should be accomodated, and ideologies that approach 'race-realism' are pernicious and entirely beyond the pale. These are sentences that I wouldn't think I would have to type to the agora nomic email server of all places, but I want to make what I think clear. I think it would be quite appropriate for agora as a whole to affirm in the rules that we are a diverse place and will always welcome anyone from any minority group. This is the sort of social norm I believe it would be appropriate to crystallise and enshrine for all time.
Re: DIS: A proto
On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Sarah S. wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> >> On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: >> > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: >> >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. >> >> >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak >> >> removed. >> >> [snip] >> >> > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if >> > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, >> > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real >> > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes >> > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). >> > >> >> Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based on >> "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of >> evaluating our community standards continuously but generally >> respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an >> isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single >> unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable >> accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently-standing >> practices. >> >> That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond any >> historical points or future changes. >> >> -G. >> >> I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players always > by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a > she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the > game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our odd > little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free to > advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this > doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find them > odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did start > with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think > traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the player > base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work for > them, they should do so. > > What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and women > expressed on discord, which I think is quite consistently discriminatory. E > has also made remarks about racial differences (deleted by moderator) which > in my view were discriminatory. To be clear, I don't remotely feel > emotionally threatened by Madrid, nor do I feel like e > personally discriminates against or devalues other players including myself > - which is why I don't want to ban em. E is, perhaps unfortunately, quite > good at confining these conversations to the abstract. But I do want to > make it clear that I think women ought not be needlessly sexualised, trans > people should be accomodated, and ideologies that approach 'race-realism' > are pernicious and entirely beyond the pale. These are sentences that I > wouldn't think I would have to type to the agora nomic email server of all > places, but I want to make what I think clear. I think it would be quite > appropriate for agora as a whole to affirm in the rules that we are a > diverse place and will always welcome anyone from any minority group. This > is the sort of social norm I believe it would be appropriate to crystallise > and enshrine for all time. > Upon reflection I probably shouldn't have sent this email, except perhaps the last two sentences. It is adding fuel that certainly didn't need to be added.
Re: DIS: A proto
Before I get dogpiled for being called a "racist" - different races, in a very general way, have different medical needs. What I mainly wanted to bring up back then was that it puts those in a racial minority at a disadvantage when general medical culture seems (often unintentionally) catered towards a particular racial majority and 'political correctness' silences voices that want to bring up that these minorities generally have different inborn vulnerabilities than the majority. It seems racist to say "darker skinned people need more sunlight to be healthy". But it's true. I'm darker skinned myself, I want to know these things to get the vitamin D I need! This doesn't only apply to skin color, but ultimately, what's more important, political correctness, or people's health? About trans people, I think I'm the only guy making hard questions about the phenomenon. I curious about these things that people seem so hushed about. Like, for example: Why are the vast majority of women on Agora, trans? Stone me, burn me on the stake, I am legitimately curious. On Wednesday, August 31, 2022, Sarah S. via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Sarah S. wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > >> > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > >> >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > >> >> > >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak > >> >> removed. > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if > >> > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, > >> > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real > >> > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes > >> > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). > >> > > >> > >> Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based > on > >> "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of > >> evaluating our community standards continuously but generally > >> respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an > >> isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single > >> unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable > >> accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently- > standing > >> practices. > >> > >> That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond > any > >> historical points or future changes. > >> > >> -G. > >> > >> I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players always > > by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a > > she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the > > game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our > odd > > little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free to > > advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this > > doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find them > > odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did start > > with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think > > traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the player > > base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work > for > > them, they should do so. > > > > What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and > women > > expressed on discord, which I think is quite consistently > discriminatory. E > > has also made remarks about racial differences (deleted by moderator) > which > > in my view were discriminatory. To be clear, I don't remotely feel > > emotionally threatened by Madrid, nor do I feel like e > > personally discriminates against or devalues other players including > myself > > - which is why I don't want to ban em. E is, perhaps unfortunately, quite > > good at confining these conversations to the abstract. But I do want to > > make it clear that I think women ought not be needlessly sexualised, > trans > > people should be accomodated, and ideologies that approach 'race-realism' > > are pernicious and entirely beyond the pale. These are sentences that I > > wouldn't think I would have to type to the agora nomic email server of > all > > places, but I want to make what I think clear. I think it would be quite > > appropriate for agora as a whole to affirm in the rules that we are a > > diverse place and will always welcome anyone from any minority group. > This > > is the sort of social norm I believe it would be appropriate to > crystallise > > and enshrine for all time. > > > > > Upon reflection I probably shouldn't have sent this email, except perhaps > the last
Re: DIS: A proto
I think that you don't need to ask 'hard questions' about why trans people are trans. I'm quite open about my gender and why I'm trans, but I don't think anything I have said in any way invited 'hard questions' to be posed about the subject. Sure, I have spoken from a more academic perspective about what I believe about gender and my own struggles with the subject - because I believed at that time I wouldn't receive absurd pushback from you or your ilk. I will not discuss those things again, which is actually quite sad for me because some of these people are my friends and I want to be open with my friends. There may be a forum for discussing 'hard questions' of gender and race - I believe the rest of us unanimously agree that any agora nomic forum is not it. Open discussion is one thing, but making strange insinuations about how trans women are actually men or randomly bringing up biological racial differences and blaming political correctness out of nowhere is not it, chief. On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, 18:48 Madrid via agora-discussion, < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > Before I get dogpiled for being called a "racist" - different races, in a > very general way, have different medical needs. > > What I mainly wanted to bring up back then was that it puts those in a > racial minority at a disadvantage when general medical culture seems (often > unintentionally) catered towards a particular racial majority and > 'political correctness' silences voices that want to bring up that these > minorities generally have different inborn vulnerabilities than the > majority. It seems racist to say "darker skinned people need more sunlight > to be healthy". But it's true. I'm darker skinned myself, I want to know > these things to get the vitamin D I need! This doesn't only apply to skin > color, but ultimately, what's more important, political correctness, or > people's health? > > About trans people, I think I'm the only guy making hard questions about > the phenomenon. I curious about these things that people seem so hushed > about. Like, for example: > > Why are the vast majority of women on Agora, trans? > > Stone me, burn me on the stake, I am legitimately curious. > > On Wednesday, August 31, 2022, Sarah S. via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Sarah S. > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > > >> > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion > wrote: > > >> >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > > >> >> > > >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak > > >> >> removed. > > >> > > >> [snip] > > >> > > >> > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they > if > > >> > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, > > >> > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real > > >> > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" > makes > > >> > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). > > >> > > > >> > > >> Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based > > on > > >> "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of > > >> evaluating our community standards continuously but generally > > >> respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an > > >> isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single > > >> unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable > > >> accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently- > > standing > > >> practices. > > >> > > >> That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond > > any > > >> historical points or future changes. > > >> > > >> -G. > > >> > > >> I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players > always > > > by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a > > > she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the > > > game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our > > odd > > > little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free > to > > > advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this > > > doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find > them > > > odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did > start > > > with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think > > > traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the > player > > > base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work > > for > > > them, they should do so. > > > > > > What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and > > women > > > expressed
Re: DIS: A proto
Why do I always forget to send from.this damn email On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, 10:25 Ned Strange, wrote: > I think that you don't need to ask 'hard questions' about why trans people > are trans. I'm quite open about my gender and why I'm trans, but I don't > think anything I have said in any way invited 'hard questions' to be posed > about the subject. Sure, I have spoken from a more academic perspective > about what I believe about gender and my own struggles with the subject - > because I believed at that time I wouldn't receive absurd pushback from you > or your ilk. I will not discuss those things again, which is actually quite > sad for me because some of these people are my friends and I want to be > open with my friends. There may be a forum for discussing 'hard questions' > of gender and race - I believe the rest of us unanimously agree that any > agora nomic forum is not it. Open discussion is one thing, but making > strange insinuations about how trans women are actually men or randomly > bringing up biological racial differences and blaming political correctness > out of nowhere is not it, chief. > > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, 18:48 Madrid via agora-discussion, < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> Before I get dogpiled for being called a "racist" - different races, in a >> very general way, have different medical needs. >> >> What I mainly wanted to bring up back then was that it puts those in a >> racial minority at a disadvantage when general medical culture seems >> (often >> unintentionally) catered towards a particular racial majority and >> 'political correctness' silences voices that want to bring up that these >> minorities generally have different inborn vulnerabilities than the >> majority. It seems racist to say "darker skinned people need more sunlight >> to be healthy". But it's true. I'm darker skinned myself, I want to know >> these things to get the vitamin D I need! This doesn't only apply to skin >> color, but ultimately, what's more important, political correctness, or >> people's health? >> >> About trans people, I think I'm the only guy making hard questions about >> the phenomenon. I curious about these things that people seem so hushed >> about. Like, for example: >> >> Why are the vast majority of women on Agora, trans? >> >> Stone me, burn me on the stake, I am legitimately curious. >> >> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022, Sarah S. via agora-discussion < >> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: >> >> > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Sarah S. >> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < >> > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: >> > > >> > >> >> > >> On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: >> > >> > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion >> wrote: >> > >> >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak >> > >> >> removed. >> > >> >> > >> [snip] >> > >> >> > >> > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they >> if >> > >> > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be >> preferable, >> > >> > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real >> > >> > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" >> makes >> > >> > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se >> based >> > on >> > >> "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of >> > >> evaluating our community standards continuously but generally >> > >> respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an >> > >> isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single >> > >> unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a >> reasonable >> > >> accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently- >> > standing >> > >> practices. >> > >> >> > >> That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond >> > any >> > >> historical points or future changes. >> > >> >> > >> -G. >> > >> >> > >> I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players >> always >> > > by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm >> a >> > > she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within >> the >> > > game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our >> > odd >> > > little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free >> to >> > > advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this >> > > doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find >> them >> > > odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did >> start >> > > with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think >> > > traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority o
Re: DIS: A proto
nix via agora-discussion [2022-08-30 13:33]: > On 8/29/22 16:28, juan via agora-discussion wrote: > > Concretely, I believe a self-moderated community should implement a form > > of restorative justice. I am not well-versed in this area, but I see an > > opportunity for us to create something new and valuable. I posit we > > should invest in the idea of a just Agora. We should take this > > seriously. > > Restorative justice is a great idea. I wrote a few protos on it in the > discord a while back, I'm sure someone can dig them up. > > > Even more concretely, I point the following, just out of the top of my > > head: > > > > * Bans should not be permanent. There should be a way to appeal them, > >and they should have time limits (though those can be unspecified and > >unlimited). Times change, and so should we. > > > > * We should have formal processes that implement some form of > >restorative justice, upon whose failure, and only then, extreme > >measures such as ostracism should prevail. > > > > I don't believe in punishment, fiction notwithstanding, and so I don't > > believe ostracism to be a punishment. It is – it must be – only the > > final, most bitter remedy for an injustice so grievous, and so > > collective, that there is no possible restoration. It is grave. I'd even > > come to the point of saying it needs to be a unanimous decision. > > I admire your idealism, but I just think you're wrong about how grievous > it has to be. Sometimes restoration isn't possible because someone > involved refuses to engage in a restorative process. Madrid responded > with "you shouldn't even be allowed to be mad at that, it's just who I > am." So e's clearly not interested at this time in understanding how eir > actions might have impacts. > > If your idealism aligns with protecting the person that makes other > people so uncomfortable that they quit, because they haven't done > anything **too serious**, then congrats because that's what you > currently have. > > -- > nix I'm sorry. I had no idea of the gravity of the situation. Also, as I've said, I know very little about restorative justice. Honestly, I have no idea how to deal with a situation such as this. Obviously, keeping things as-is is unnaceptable. Something must be done to stop the pattern of abuse, though I don't have much confidence in what that is. That said, I prefer to err on the side of protecting victims. If no better alternatives come up, I will support a ban. -- juan
Re: DIS: A proto
juan wrote:
Jason Cobb via agora-discussion [2022-08-29 13:23]:
We now have a player who is directly responsible for three FAGEs. I
believe that it's time we discuss a mechanism similar to the one below.
Title: Unfortunately
Author: Jason
Coauthors:
Adoption index: 3.0
{
Amend Rule 869 by appending the following paragraph:
{
Banned is a secured negative boolean person switch. A person is
unwelcome if e is Banned or if at least one part of em is unwelcome.
Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, an unwelcome person CANNOT
register or be registered, and e is immediately deregistered if e is
ever a player. Designations of unwelcomeness are secured.
[snip]
But it's not. In adopting it, we would be stating clearly that we
believe in ostracism, and, most worringly for me, that we believe in
punishment for life.
[snip]
* Bans should not be permanent. There should be a way to appeal them,
and they should have time limits (though those can be unspecified and
unlimited). Times change, and so should we.
* We should have formal processes that implement some form of
restorative justice, upon whose failure, and only then, extreme
measures such as ostracism should prevail.
I don't disagree with either of these points, but I do disagree with
your characterization of this proto as clearly going against them (at
least the first one). It doesn't add any specified mechanism for
actually flipping a person's Banned switch, in either direction;
presumably that would be left up to proposals of the form "Flip
's Banned switch to ". And presumably such a
proposal would generate plenty of careful discussion, but adopting
rules along the lines of "a Banned switch can only be flipped if
was attempted and failed to achieve acceptable
resolution" may be a good idea; something similar to Defendant's
Rights, but addressing the rights of the people on both sides of
a "maybe this calls for a ban" dispute.
