[amsat-bb] AMSAT-UK COLLOQUIUM 25/26 July
Hi Folks, Just a reminder about the AMSAT-UK Colloquium on Sat/Sun 25/26 July. The hotel will stop holding our rooms after tomorrow (Fri 3 July), so it would be best to book over the next 48 hrs to be sure of a room being available. The easiest way to do this is to phone the hotel on +44 (0) 1483 78 and quote reference R0F (That's R zero F). I understand that the hotel will still have rooms available after tomorrow, but if you book after then, availability is not guaranteed! 73 Jim G3WGM Hon Sec AMSAT-UK www.uk.amsat.org ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Chinease sat any news?
From my archives did any one get fresh news about this Chinease sat? SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-279.02 October 4 2008 First Chinese Amateur Radio Satellite to be launched in June 2009 AMSAT News Service Bulletin 279.02 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. October 5, 2008 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-279.02 Michael Chen, BD5RV/4, reports that he recently received an update from Alan, BA1DU, on the progress of the first Chinese amateur satellite. Things are now going smoothly. This satellite was formerly named CAS-1 and is now XW-1. It carries a beacon and three cross band transponders: FM, linear, and digital. The satellite is planned to be launched into a Sun synchronous orbit in June 2009 by a CZ-2C rocket in Taiyuan Satellite Launch Center in North China. [ANS thanks Michael, BD5RV/4, for the above information] /EX - Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Antenna Question
It surprises me that nobody appears to sell commercially made Lindenblads. Jim Jerzycke wrote: An altenative would be to build a Lindenblad like Tony AA2TX designed. I have the parts collected to do just that, but won't have the time to build one for a few weeks. ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Original 13 Colonies update
Luc and all, My apologies for not posting this sooner. Here is the full list of operators - NOTE that we only have 11 of the 13 colonies active. If there is ANYone in Connecticut or Delaware who can work some passes, please contact me off the BB. Thank you. K2A-NY WB2OQQ K2B-VANL7VX K2C-RIN1RCN K2D-CTNOT currently active on the satellites K2E-DENOT currently active on the satellites K2F-MD...WA3SWJ K2G-GAN3TL K2H-MAKB1PVH K2I-NJW4MPS K2J-NCND9M, operating as K2T - See note below K2K-NHN1XED K2L-SC...K4YYL K2M-PAN2AUO K2T/Mobile-NC (Will count as a contact for North Carolina on Certificate) I hope this is helpful to everyone. 73 to all, Tim -- Original message from Luc Leblanc luclebla...@videotron.ca: -- On 30 Jun 2009 at 12:32, n...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hey everyone, I've just heard from Gary, N2AUO, who is interested in activating Pennsylvania on the satellites during the Original 13 Colonies special event this week. That gives us 10 of the Original 13 Colonies that will be active on the satellites during this event! Thanks to Gary for his interest in participating. At the request of the event's organizer (Ken. KU2US), those of us active on the satellites will be IDing with our own call sign/special event call. For example, I will be IDing as N3TL/K2G. I'll add that I'm the station in Georgia for the special event, just to be clear. Ken also has advised that he is adding a special satellite designator to the certificates for those who earn them via satellite contacts. Thanks to him for doing this. For the latest information on the Original 13 Colonies Special Event, please go to www.QRZ.com/ku2us. The event begins at 1300 UTC July 1 and ends at 0359 UTC on July 5. 73 to all, Tim - N3TL On the 2145Z AO-51 pass i was able to get theses one below those with their call sign and heard those with a H K2A-NY K2B-VA K2C-RIN1RCN K2D-CT K2E-DE K2F-MD...WA3SWJ K2G-GA K2H-MAKB1PVH K2I-NJW4MPS K2J-NC K2K-NH K2L-SC...H... K2M-PA K2T/Mobile-NC (Will count as a contact for North Carolina on Certificate) 30% on the first shot! did a list exist with the satellite operator call sign? As a suggestion those available can post here which satellite they will be listening and operate. - Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
There is nothing simple about a project that can withstand the extreme temperature changes and eclipse periods that exst on the moon. It's probably the most hostile environment we're likely to build for. MM wrote: A plan for a simple transponder (KISS no complex P3E). ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
From WF1F: Yes, that is one of the many challenges we have to plan for. 14 days of pure sunlight (Lunar-Day) and 14 days of freezing darkness (Lunar-Night). We also have some unknown questions about our power source. Will we be able to run during the 14 days of darkness or will we be operating during the Lunar days only? What I mean by Simple, is the design of the transponder needs to be Simple (KISS). Strictly analog circuits for the transponder, NO DSP, NO CPU’s, No SDR to run the transponder. We need the reliability of the AO-10 transponder and not the complexity of AO-40. --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF ni...@ngunn.net wrote: From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF ni...@ngunn.net Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future To: MM ka1...@yahoo.com Cc: kg4...@gmail.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org, Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 8:56 AM There is nothing simple about a project that can withstand the extreme temperature changes and eclipse periods that exst on the moon. It's probably the most hostile environment we're likely to build for. MM wrote: A plan for a simple transponder (KISS no complex P3E). ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is ...] [250,000 miles] Which is 7 times farther, squared or 50 times more power. ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Hello Joe: Thank your comments. My EME experience is minimal. I have only been able to hear a few signals from the Moon and have yet to complete a full 2-way EME (new antenna in progress). I am sure there are some people on this emailing forum that have more experience than I have with EME communications. The reason for a small antenna setup on the NASA lander proposal is because I believe it will be harder to convince NASA to allow us to install a 20 foot boom on the lander. Right now this is the concept theory phase. Is a 2m/440 SSB transponder practical? If our analysis proves that it is not, then we can move on higher in frequency until we find an affordable solution (within the ITU guidelines). The ground stations will need to be Oscar class or better (12-15+ dBd). The question is, which frequency combination will give us the best bang for the buck and provide access to the most users? A Moon repeater will never be accessible via a HT. And with the exception of one (1) truck I saw, it will not be accessible to mobile SSB systems. --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Joe n...@mwt.net wrote: From: Joe n...@mwt.net Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future To: MM ka1...@yahoo.com Cc: kg4...@gmail.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org, Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 9:20 AM MM wrote: Theoretically we may have a free ride to the Moon for an Amateur radio repeater! [snip] One theory: We need a simple Mode-J transponder (2-meters up, 440 down). Low power consumption. Assume minimal antenna gain from the Lander (3 dBd on each antenna) Assume transmitter power 5-10 watts. Why go with the minimal antenna gain? From the moon the whole Earth only displays less than 2 degrees in the sky. ( Moon shows 0.5 degrees from earth) Why spill all the power where people are not? In addition, once the antennas are positioned, that's more or less it. There is a slight wobble (Libration) of 6.5 degrees So any antenna with a 3 db point that exceeds 6.5 degrees is just wasting transmitter power. And with this link budget even an active bird that has landed and not flying it still will need some pretty hefty power to not need a major antenna setup on the earth side of the system. Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications,, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is almost a ten fold increase in distance, to keep the lander from having to run hundreds of watts to be heard on the earth, ever DB of antenna gain will be needed for sure! Joe WB9SBD ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Don't want to get a whole new thing started here but - I don't think we ever went to the moon in 1969 and I don't think we will ever goto the moon - in 2012 or whenever they proposed a return to the moon I would love to see an amatuer repeater on the moon thou - from my understanding EME is expensive to do, so I think it would leave most of us out Where as and bringing things back around - LEOs are realitive low cost to use to the normal everyday day I will put my two cents in for more LEOs - :-) Hey are there any geosynchinze amatuer sats up? LeRoy, KD8BXP http://www.HamOhio.com --Original Message-- From: Robert Bruninga Sender: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org To: 'Joe' To: 'MM' Cc: 'Jack K.' Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: kg4...@gmail.com ReplyTo: bruni...@usna.edu Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future Sent: Jul 2, 2009 10:18 AM Why go with the minimal antenna gain? ... any antenna with a 3 db point that exceeds 6.5 degrees is just wasting transmitter power. I think that would be about a 24 dB gain antenna. Pretty big and would take some careful alignment... Kinda like a realy big EME array Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is ...] [250,000 miles] Which is 7 times farther, squared or 50 times more power (about 17 dB). BUT one easy way to get gain is to use just a long coaxial gain cable. I think it takes about 22 feet of coaxial dipole elements at 2 meters to give about 6 dB of gain. So laying down 6 dB gain segments on the rock of the moon is as easy as unrolling a spool of cable. Unrolling 8 of these with the right spacing could yield about 17 dB. Of course this woiuld only point straight up, so it would need to be on a moon base in the middle of the earth facing side. But since there is a lot of interest in moon bases near the poles where there might be water, then a similar array of layed down coaxial cable arrays could be phased horizontally to point at earth. Actually, just about any direction can be obtained with the right spacing. ONLY problem of course is there has to be someone with legs to roll out the cables. Just a thought. Bob, WB4APR ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb Sent on the Now Network� from my Sprint® BlackBerry ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] [Fwd: Re: Re: The Moon is our Future]
Somehow I sent this in reply to Bob instead of the group. Sorry, Bob. BUT one easy way to get gain is to use just a long coaxial gain cable. I think it takes about 22 feet of coaxial dipole elements at 2 meters to give about 6 dB of gain. So laying down 6 dB gain segments on the rock of the moon is as easy as unrolling a spool of cable. Unrolling 8 of these with the right spacing could yield about 17 dB. Of course this woiuld only point straight up, so it would need to be on a moon base in the middle of the earth facing side. But since there is a lot of interest in moon bases near the poles where there might be water, then a similar array of layed down coaxial cable arrays could be phased horizontally to point at earth. Actually, just about any direction can be obtained with the right spacing. ONLY problem of course is there has to be someone with legs to roll out the cables. How about, if the location is very near the pole, an array that extends up like a push-pole vertically from the craft, with tape measure type dipoles that spring out horizontally when the pole goes up? You might need a small rotator on the base of the pole then to make sure the dipoles point at Earth depending on the orientation of the craft when it lands, but that would only need to be turned once I believe, when it is deployed. Jerry N0JY ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Why go with the minimal antenna gain? ... any antenna with a 3 db point that exceeds 6.5 degrees is just wasting transmitter power. I think that would be about a 24 dB gain antenna. Pretty big and would take some careful alignment... Kinda like a realy big EME array Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is ...] [250,000 miles] Which is 7 times farther, squared or 50 times more power (about 17 dB). BUT one easy way to get gain is to use just a long coaxial gain cable. I think it takes about 22 feet of coaxial dipole elements at 2 meters to give about 6 dB of gain. So laying down 6 dB gain segments on the rock of the moon is as easy as unrolling a spool of cable. Unrolling 8 of these with the right spacing could yield about 17 dB. Of course this woiuld only point straight up, so it would need to be on a moon base in the middle of the earth facing side. But since there is a lot of interest in moon bases near the poles where there might be water, then a similar array of layed down coaxial cable arrays could be phased horizontally to point at earth. Actually, just about any direction can be obtained with the right spacing. ONLY problem of course is there has to be someone with legs to roll out the cables. Just a thought. Bob, WB4APR ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
I heard the same things when the first HEOs went up. It takes to much money, it takes to much specialized equipment, it takes to much knowledge, it is for elitists only... The bottom line is a LOT of hams used them and it took some ingenuity, some new equipment, and yes we all had to learn now things to use them. the bottom line is they worked and worked well... My suggestion is quit looking at pitfalls and problems as reasons not to do something, but as opportunities to learn to accomplish new things (or improved communications anyway) and move forward... We can put up all the leos we want, but until someone makes something like B. Bruninga's cell concept work, we are only going to have more of the same, We don't need more of the same! DE - KD1PE - Original Message - From: kd8...@aol.com To: bruni...@usna.edu; 'Joe' n...@mwt.net; 'MM' ka1...@yahoo.com Cc: 'Jack K.' kd1p...@gmail.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; kg4...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future Don't want to get a whole new thing started here but - I don't think we ever went to the moon in 1969 and I don't think we will ever goto the moon - in 2012 or whenever they proposed a return to the moon I would love to see an amatuer repeater on the moon thou - from my understanding EME is expensive to do, so I think it would leave most of us out Where as and bringing things back around - LEOs are realitive low cost to use to the normal everyday day I will put my two cents in for more LEOs - :-) Hey are there any geosynchinze amatuer sats up? ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
The moon will require a reasonable radio and big antennas but at least it moves very slowly and you can see it so it should be very easy to track. ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Has anyone considered???
Has anyone considered the notion that the communications from a HEO or Moon or Mars need not be analog? Has anyone considered a digital mode such as WSJT for comms? I know for a fact people are running meteor scatter and EME using a single beam (albeit a long one) and 150 watts. This is not out of the reach of most hams and it is not non-viable communications mode... Heck the US Navy even ran RTTY in the 60's from Hawaii to Maryland as a normal mode of communications (yes it was big and wieldy, I just mentioned it as an aside). DE - KD1PE - Jack Why go with the minimal antenna gain? ... any antenna with a 3 db point that exceeds 6.5 degrees is just wasting transmitter power. I think that would be about a 24 dB gain antenna. Pretty big and would take some careful alignment... Kinda like a realy big EME array Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is ...] [250,000 miles] Which is 7 times farther, squared or 50 times more power (about 17 dB). ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
On the contrary, we need more LEO's to augment and replace the existing aged fleet. Whilst AMSAT works on the HEO's lets put some of our efforts towards the Universities who seem to regularly put up 2/70 satellites! -- David KG4ZLB www.kg4zlb.com Jack K. wrote: I heard the same things when the first HEOs went up. It takes to much money, it takes to much specialized equipment, it takes to much knowledge, it is for elitists only... The bottom line is a LOT of hams used them and it took some ingenuity, some new equipment, and yes we all had to learn now things to use them. the bottom line is they worked and worked well... My suggestion is quit looking at pitfalls and problems as reasons not to do something, but as opportunities to learn to accomplish new things (or improved communications anyway) and move forward... We can put up all the leos we want, but until someone makes something like B. Bruninga's cell concept work, we are only going to have more of the same, We don't need more of the same! DE - KD1PE - Original Message - From: kd8...@aol.com To: bruni...@usna.edu; 'Joe' n...@mwt.net; 'MM' ka1...@yahoo.com Cc: 'Jack K.' kd1p...@gmail.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; kg4...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Just a question but if you do not think the US got to the Moon in 1969 and neither do you think they will get back to the Moon in 2012, how do you propose seeing an amateur repeater on the Moon? Get the crew of the ISS to toss out a repeater, like SuitSat, but throw it really, really hard in the general direction of the Moon and hope it lands? I don't understand your logic. 73 David KG4ZLB kd8...@aol.com wrote: Don't want to get a whole new thing started here but - I don't think we ever went to the moon in 1969 and I don't think we will ever goto the moon - in 2012 or whenever they proposed a return to the moon I would love to see an amatuer repeater on the moon thou - from my understanding EME is expensive to do, so I think it would leave most of us out Where as and bringing things back around - LEOs are realitive low cost to use to the normal everyday day I will put my two cents in for more LEOs - :-) Hey are there any geosynchinze amatuer sats up? LeRoy, KD8BXP http://www.HamOhio.com - ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: [Fwd: Re: Re: The Moon is our Future]
What someone really needs to do is to run a real actual link budget, and see what things really like are. Joe n...@lavabit.com wrote: Somehow I sent this in reply to Bob instead of the group. Sorry, Bob. BUT one easy way to get gain is to use just a long coaxial gain cable. I think it takes about 22 feet of coaxial dipole elements at 2 meters to give about 6 dB of gain. So laying down 6 dB gain segments on the rock of the moon is as easy as unrolling a spool of cable. Unrolling 8 of these with the right spacing could yield about 17 dB. Of course this woiuld only point straight up, so it would need to be on a moon base in the middle of the earth facing side. But since there is a lot of interest in moon bases near the poles where there might be water, then a similar array of layed down coaxial cable arrays could be phased horizontally to point at earth. Actually, just about any direction can be obtained with the right spacing. ONLY problem of course is there has to be someone with legs to roll out the cables. How about, if the location is very near the pole, an array that extends up like a push-pole vertically from the craft, with tape measure type dipoles that spring out horizontally when the pole goes up? You might need a small rotator on the base of the pole then to make sure the dipoles point at Earth depending on the orientation of the craft when it lands, but that would only need to be turned once I believe, when it is deployed. Jerry N0JY ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Has anyone considered???
Yes, Digital is an option. However, i would want it to pass through the analog transponder unprocessed. The reason is that we can't afford the Million dollar Radiation hardened chips to support digital processing required on satellites. DSP or SDR will add to the Cost and add many years to the project. WE need projects much faster than have been delivered in the past, 1-2 year schedules not 10 year schedules. Miles --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Subject: Has anyone considered??? To: bruni...@usna.edu, 'Joe' n...@mwt.net, 'MM' ka1...@yahoo.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org, kg4...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 8:40 AM Has anyone considered the notion that the communications from a HEO or Moon or Mars need not be analog? Has anyone considered a digital mode such as WSJT for comms? I know for a fact people are running meteor scatter and EME using a single beam (albeit a long one) and 150 watts. This is not out of the reach of most hams and it is not non-viable communications mode... Heck the US Navy even ran RTTY in the 60's from Hawaii to Maryland as a normal mode of communications (yes it was big and wieldy, I just mentioned it as an aside). DE - KD1PE - Jack Why go with the minimal antenna gain? ... any antenna with a 3 db point that exceeds 6.5 degrees is just wasting transmitter power. I think that would be about a 24 dB gain antenna. Pretty big and would take some careful alignment... Kinda like a realy big EME array Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is ...] [250,000 miles] Which is 7 times farther, squared or 50 times more power (about 17 dB). ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Of course, lets get more Universities involved and build more Leos satellites to fill those small ballast spots on new satellites. The Moon option could be cheaper than a HEO's, if we can get it in as Public Relations NASA project. The cost to get a ride on a HEO satellite is multiple millions just for the ride into space. Amsat paid over a million dollars just to ride a Prototype Rocket (AO-4). If you want to ride a Non-prototype rocket to high orbit, add another 20 million. Cheap High orbit rocket rides are few and far between. The Moon is the most affordable ride option this decade. 20 years ago NASA was looking for ballast for the TDRS satellites. We had the opportunity to put a ham project on a few GEO satellites and missed the opportunity. Lets not miss the Moon. http://www.marexmg.org/fileshtml/ArissRebuild.html --- On Thu, 7/2/09, David - KG4ZLB kg4...@googlemail.com wrote: From: David - KG4ZLB kg4...@googlemail.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:15 AM On the contrary, we need more LEO's to augment and replace the existing aged fleet. Whilst AMSAT works on the HEO's lets put some of our efforts towards the Universities who seem to regularly put up 2/70 satellites! -- David KG4ZLB www.kg4zlb.com Jack K. wrote: I heard the same things when the first HEOs went up. It takes to much money, it takes to much specialized equipment, it takes to much knowledge, it is for elitists only... The bottom line is a LOT of hams used them and it took some ingenuity, some new equipment, and yes we all had to learn now things to use them. the bottom line is they worked and worked well... My suggestion is quit looking at pitfalls and problems as reasons not to do something, but as opportunities to learn to accomplish new things (or improved communications anyway) and move forward... We can put up all the leos we want, but until someone makes something like B. Bruninga's cell concept work, we are only going to have more of the same, We don't need more of the same! DE - KD1PE - Original Message - From: kd8...@aol.com To: bruni...@usna.edu; 'Joe' n...@mwt.net; 'MM' ka1...@yahoo.com Cc: 'Jack K.' kd1p...@gmail.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; kg4...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
The Chinese are going to get there first. David - KG4ZLB wrote: Just a question but if you do not think the US got to the Moon in 1969 and neither do you think they will get back to the Moon in 2012, how do you propose seeing an amateur repeater on the Moon? ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
I don't think man will ever walk on the moon. And I really didn't want to start a whole thing on this - Someone said that a man would have to roll out an antenna for a amatuer project - I just don't think that will ever happen A small robotic rover could do it but then you are talking expensive unless nasa was willing to give us time on a rover that was going to do experiments for nasa LeRoy, KD8BXP http://www.HamOhio.com --Original Message-- From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF Sender: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future Sent: Jul 2, 2009 11:43 AM The Chinese are going to get there first. David - KG4ZLB wrote: Just a question but if you do not think the US got to the Moon in 1969 and neither do you think they will get back to the Moon in 2012, how do you propose seeing an amateur repeater on the Moon? ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb Sent on the Now Network� from my Sprint® BlackBerry ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
On Jul 2 2009, kd8...@aol.com wrote: Don't want to get a whole new thing started here but - I don't think we ever went to the moon in 1969 and I don't think we will ever goto the moon - in 2012 or whenever they proposed a return to the moon With that level of disbelief I can certainly see why you are predisposed to discount the possibility of a moon-based transponder. I would love to see an amatuer repeater on the moon thou - from my understanding EME is expensive to do, so I think it would leave most of us out Not necessarily. Remember, with conventional EME, you send as large a signal as you can muster towards the moon, incur huge path losses along the way, then incur a huge loss because the moon is a very imperfect reflector of RF energy, then incur the huge path loss back from moon to earth. With a moon-based repeater, you send as large a signal as you can muster towards the moon, incur the same path loss from earth to moon; BUT, THEN you enlarge the signal with a gain antenna at the repeater, and then have a sensitive receiver that can detect and amplify the signal. The repeater then transponds the signal to a different frequency band, amplifies it as much as equipment weight and power availability allow, transmit it through a gain antenna, and only THEN incur the huge path loss from moon to earth. Because the path loss is only in a single direction, and instead of an inefficient (lossy) passive reflector, you have gain antennas for reception and transmission, plus amplification on receive and on transmit, the net earth station requirements should be much less than conventional EME. That's not to say it would be easy, just that it should be easier than conventional EME in terms of station requirements on earth. As has been mentioned numerous times already, the station requirements for the space end of the system are enormously more difficult than anything we've ever tackled so far with either LEO or HEO satellites. But there's no harm in DISCUSSING the idea, and learning about the pitfalls and possibilities as part of the discussion. Even if it never comes to pass, we should all be a bit more knowledgeable after having had the discussion. As far as the dreaming goes, wouldn't an L/S transponder be better than a V/U or U/V transponder? Granted, the path loss is greater, but the antenna gain is easier to produce... While I am a firm believer in the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!), I am getting a little tired of hearing people complain endlessly about the downfall of AO-40 being due to its complexity. Uhh, the downfall of AO-40 was human error, which will ALWAYS be an issue. The only reason that AO-40 was ever usable at all was BECAUSE of its complexity, i.e., the redundancy of multiple transponders that could be switched into place after initial failures, etc. OF COURSE, a mission to the moon needs to be as light and compact as it can be made, and therefore much simpler than AO-40, but due to the harsh environment in which it would be asked to operate, it needs to be as complex as necessary to get the job done, i.e. not as simple as AO-10 or AO-13. 73 de W0JT AMSAT-NA LM#2292 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
But doesn't it have to be above ground? Yes the moon is dry and probably the poorest conducting dirt there is, But just like on Earth it can't be laying on the ground yes? Good question... Even if the ground was a perfect reflector and conductor, then the antenna would only have to be 19 above the ground at 2 meters. Next consider that the moon is rock and extremely dry... And rock has about 1/1000 the conductivity of moist soil... So where the true reflection in the ground of the moon is surely many feet down. So sitting it on the ground of the moon is probably 99% as effective as trying to hang it 19 up. Robert Bruninga wrote: BUT one easy way to get gain is to use just a long coaxial gain cable. I think it takes about 22 feet of coaxial dipole elements at 2 meters to give about 6 dB of gain. So laying down 6 dB gain segments on the rock of the moon is as easy as unrolling a spool of cable. Unrolling 8 of these with the right spacing could yield about 17 dB. Of course this woiuld only point straight up, so it would need to be on a moon base in the middle of the earth facing side. But since there is a lot of interest in moon bases near the poles where there might be water, then a similar array of layed down coaxial cable arrays could be phased horizontally to point at earth. Actually, just about any direction can be obtained with the right spacing. ONLY problem of course is there has to be someone with legs to roll out the cables. Just a thought. Bob, WB4APR No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders?
Dear friends, We know that some Satellite Operators use diferent system to doppler control. For Linear Transponder 1) Adjust uplink and downlink automatic by CAT? (Not always woks, some times I´m up or down from the computer adjust) 2) Adjust uplink and downlink manual 3) Keep Uplink fixed and adjust only the Downlink frequency. What is the more indicate method to use? FT-847 have knob to adjust Uplink without change downlink VFO, and I´m using it to keep my voice in downlink at same downlink much I can. But I know some operators use fixed uplink. How you do? -- 73 Fabiano Moser CR7/PY5RX ARISS-PORTUGAL (Amateur Radio on the International Space Station) Representative at Teleconference and Portugal Telebridge Coordinator. AMRAD/AMSAT-CT http://www.amrad.pt/ariss.php There is no great talent without great will. (Honoré de Balzac) ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
I understand completely how EME works, and understand the losses - I am even in favor of putting a repeater up on the moon if a way could be found to do it - Someone in the group and had something about a man would have to roll out a large antenna - since I believe that no man has ever set foot on the moon I find it hard to believe that a man will ever roll out an antenna IMHO a robotic device of some kind would be better suited to doing it - but then you have the cost factor weighting in I just don't think any man or woman for that matter will ever walk on the moon or ever has Yes I am a very skepical person, and I am wrapped in a lot of contridictions in my own right - most of my skepicalism does lie in and around Nasa and the space program as a whole - And again this is just my opion. We as a whole nation spend billions on a space program - as get very little in return. We keep servicing an ageing fleet of shuttles and nothing really new is coming from the minds of Nasa. I am skepical and a nonbelieve when it comes to the moon. But I do agree talking about it and some of the ideas on how to over come the losses and power requires maybe the only way anything ever will happen LeRoy, KD8BXP http://www.HamOhio.com Sent on the Now Network� from my Sprint® BlackBerry -Original Message- From: tosca...@umn.edu Date: 02 Jul 2009 10:52:11 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future On Jul 2 2009, kd8...@aol.com wrote: Don't want to get a whole new thing started here but - I don't think we ever went to the moon in 1969 and I don't think we will ever goto the moon - in 2012 or whenever they proposed a return to the moon With that level of disbelief I can certainly see why you are predisposed to discount the possibility of a moon-based transponder. I would love to see an amatuer repeater on the moon thou - from my understanding EME is expensive to do, so I think it would leave most of us out Not necessarily. Remember, with conventional EME, you send as large a signal as you can muster towards the moon, incur huge path losses along the way, then incur a huge loss because the moon is a very imperfect reflector of RF energy, then incur the huge path loss back from moon to earth. With a moon-based repeater, you send as large a signal as you can muster towards the moon, incur the same path loss from earth to moon; BUT, THEN you enlarge the signal with a gain antenna at the repeater, and then have a sensitive receiver that can detect and amplify the signal. The repeater then transponds the signal to a different frequency band, amplifies it as much as equipment weight and power availability allow, transmit it through a gain antenna, and only THEN incur the huge path loss from moon to earth. Because the path loss is only in a single direction, and instead of an inefficient (lossy) passive reflector, you have gain antennas for reception and transmission, plus amplification on receive and on transmit, the net earth station requirements should be much less than conventional EME. That's not to say it would be easy, just that it should be easier than conventional EME in terms of station requirements on earth. As has been mentioned numerous times already, the station requirements for the space end of the system are enormously more difficult than anything we've ever tackled so far with either LEO or HEO satellites. But there's no harm in DISCUSSING the idea, and learning about the pitfalls and possibilities as part of the discussion. Even if it never comes to pass, we should all be a bit more knowledgeable after having had the discussion. As far as the dreaming goes, wouldn't an L/S transponder be better than a V/U or U/V transponder? Granted, the path loss is greater, but the antenna gain is easier to produce... While I am a firm believer in the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!), I am getting a little tired of hearing people complain endlessly about the downfall of AO-40 being due to its complexity. Uhh, the downfall of AO-40 was human error, which will ALWAYS be an issue. The only reason that AO-40 was ever usable at all was BECAUSE of its complexity, i.e., the redundancy of multiple transponders that could be switched into place after initial failures, etc. OF COURSE, a mission to the moon needs to be as light and compact as it can be made, and therefore much simpler than AO-40, but due to the harsh environment in which it would be asked to operate, it needs to be as complex as necessary to get the job done, i.e. not as simple as AO-10 or AO-13. 73 de W0JT AMSAT-NA LM#2292 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org.
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
OK, I just love conspiracy theories :-D Are you really Michael Moore ? :-D kd8...@aol.com wrote: I don't think man will ever walk on the moon. And I really didn't want to start a whole thing on this - Someone said that a man would have to roll out an antenna for a amatuer project - I just don't think that will ever happen A small robotic rover could do it but then you are talking expensive unless nasa was willing to give us time on a rover that was going to do experiments for nasa LeRoy, KD8BXP http://www.HamOhio.com ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 10:52 -0500, tosca...@umn.edu wrote: As far as the dreaming goes, wouldn't an L/S transponder be better than a V/U or U/V transponder? Granted, the path loss is greater, but the antenna gain is easier to produce... Miles, Why not use a L/s, U/L. or a U/s transponder for this? Why limit ourselves to V/u for everything? Aren't we supposed to 'experiment' with the higher frequencies we have allocated? Its in the AMSAT by-laws to support the higher frequencies. From the AMSAT-NA by-laws Section three, subsection E: Encouraging the more effective and expanded use of the higher frequency amateur radio frequency bands. This would mean smaller antennas with MUCH better gain and beamwidth. I vote in favor of at least a L/s transponder for this. James W8ISS ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] I: How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders?
Hi Fabiano, In my opinion for sure keep fixed downlink frequency and adjust uplink frequency. So on this way you don't slip on the transponder downlink. 73 Frank IW4DVZ -Messaggio originale- Da: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] Per conto di Fabiano Moser Inviato: giovedì 2 luglio 2009 18.20 A: amsat-bb Oggetto: [amsat-bb] How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders? Dear friends, We know that some Satellite Operators use diferent system to doppler control. For Linear Transponder 1) Adjust uplink and downlink automatic by CAT? (Not always woks, some times I´m up or down from the computer adjust) 2) Adjust uplink and downlink manual 3) Keep Uplink fixed and adjust only the Downlink frequency. What is the more indicate method to use? FT-847 have knob to adjust Uplink without change downlink VFO, and I´m using it to keep my voice in downlink at same downlink much I can. But I know some operators use fixed uplink. How you do? -- 73 Fabiano Moser CR7/PY5RX ARISS-PORTUGAL (Amateur Radio on the International Space Station) Representative at Teleconference and Portugal Telebridge Coordinator. AMRAD/AMSAT-CT http://www.amrad.pt/ariss.php There is no great talent without great will. (Honoré de Balzac) ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
he he he, He just missed his ride with the comet Hale Bop, and the heavens gate folk Joe WB9SBD David - KG4ZLB wrote: OK, I just love conspiracy theories :-D Are you really Michael Moore ? :-D kd8...@aol.com wrote: I don't think man will ever walk on the moon. And I really didn't want to start a whole thing on this - Someone said that a man would have to roll out an antenna for a amatuer project - I just don't think that will ever happen A small robotic rover could do it but then you are talking expensive unless nasa was willing to give us time on a rover that was going to do experiments for nasa LeRoy, KD8BXP http://www.HamOhio.com ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders?
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/features/one_true_rule.html If you can't do CAT, adjust the higher of the two frequencies used. 73, Drew KO4MA - Original Message - From: Fabiano Moser fabianomo...@gmail.com To: amsat-bb AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:19 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders? Dear friends, We know that some Satellite Operators use diferent system to doppler control. For Linear Transponder 1) Adjust uplink and downlink automatic by CAT? (Not always woks, some times I´m up or down from the computer adjust) 2) Adjust uplink and downlink manual 3) Keep Uplink fixed and adjust only the Downlink frequency. What is the more indicate method to use? FT-847 have knob to adjust Uplink without change downlink VFO, and I´m using it to keep my voice in downlink at same downlink much I can. But I know some operators use fixed uplink. How you do? -- 73 Fabiano Moser CR7/PY5RX ARISS-PORTUGAL (Amateur Radio on the International Space Station) Representative at Teleconference and Portugal Telebridge Coordinator. AMRAD/AMSAT-CT http://www.amrad.pt/ariss.php There is no great talent without great will. (Honoré de Balzac) ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Maybe some converted Wild Blue dishes? They have a 1 watt tranny that operates at 29.5 to 30 GHz, may be able to drag down to 24 Ghz? I wonder what the ERP of a 1 watt sig at 30 GHz is with say a old TVRO dish? Not the tiny mini dishes but a used say 10 footer hm,,, Joe WB9SBD James French wrote: On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 10:52 -0500, tosca...@umn.edu wrote: As far as the dreaming goes, wouldn't an L/S transponder be better than a V/U or U/V transponder? Granted, the path loss is greater, but the antenna gain is easier to produce... Miles, Why not use a L/s, U/L. or a U/s transponder for this? Why limit ourselves to V/u for everything? Aren't we supposed to 'experiment' with the higher frequencies we have allocated? Its in the AMSAT by-laws to support the higher frequencies. From the AMSAT-NA by-laws Section three, subsection E: Encouraging the more effective and expanded use of the higher frequency amateur radio frequency bands. This would mean smaller antennas with MUCH better gain and beamwidth. I vote in favor of at least a L/s transponder for this. James W8ISS ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Greetings, Not to be a wet blanket, but what is the advantage of an amateur repeater on the moon? From a mid-latitude location, the moon is above the horizon 8.5 to 16 hours per day depending on the season. The repeater would be in darkness and presumably un-powered for 2 weeks each month. Even if it was located in a permently illuminated point near the poles, librations would take it out of view of earth at times. Link margins would be large, but not insurmountable. Designing a comm package to survive the temperature extremes would be difficult but not impossible. The US and USSR had unmanned landers that survived many lunar day night cycles. We do have experience flying amateur repeaters on manned space missions. There's one on the ISS right now. It is turned off on a regular basis because of crew time availability and flight safety rules. One can only imagine what constraints would be imposed with a comm package on the moon. There would be many technical, logistical and financial challenges for a lunar amateur repeater to overcome...and all from an international organization that has yet to replace AO-40. 73, Armando, N8IGJ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 04:31:45 -0700 (PDT) From: MM ka1...@yahoo.com Subject: [amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future To: kg4...@gmail.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org, Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Message-ID: 878811.97851...@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Theoretically we may have a free ride to the Moon for an Amateur radio repeater! ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future
Hi James: I am in favor of any band that has the desired results. I just used the 2/440 bands as the opener. Remember the higher in frequency the less affordable the system becomes and the fewer Amateur Radio operators and Short Wave listeners will have access to those frequencies. We do not want to design a system that only 2 people can afford. Goals: Uplink to the Moon with an antenna system that would cost less than $1000 USD. Receive from the Moon with an Antenna system that would cost less than $1000 USD. An Off the Shelf transceiver system that cost less than $2000 USD. With a properly designed repeater and properly selected Amateur Radio bands, it should be possible to meet these goals. I have seen some project proposals for ISS for example, that when reviewed it was discovered that no one could afford the project (2 megabit fast TV, the link budget, Antenna, Receiver requirement and precision rotor made the project only affordable by a government). If we are going to seriously think about a Moon repeater, we need to make sure the Earth stations are practical and affordable. It would also be helpful if we had more Amateur Radio band with ITU approved Satellite segments. Anyone interested in going to the next WARC meeting to petition for downlink access to 1.2 Gig and wider band access on 70cm. Thanks Miles WF1F MarexMG.org --- On Thu, 7/2/09, James French w8...@wideopenwest.com wrote: From: James French w8...@wideopenwest.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future To: AMSAT-BB AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 12:30 PM On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 10:52 -0500, tosca...@umn.edu wrote: As far as the dreaming goes, wouldn't an L/S transponder be better than a V/U or U/V transponder? Granted, the path loss is greater, but the antenna gain is easier to produce... Miles, Why not use a L/s, U/L. or a U/s transponder for this? Why limit ourselves to V/u for everything? Aren't we supposed to 'experiment' with the higher frequencies we have allocated? Its in the AMSAT by-laws to support the higher frequencies. From the AMSAT-NA by-laws Section three, subsection E: Encouraging the more effective and expanded use of the higher frequency amateur radio frequency bands. This would mean smaller antennas with MUCH better gain and beamwidth. I vote in favor of at least a L/s transponder for this. James W8ISS ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
It would be the only repeater anywhere that I've seen that would get sufficient use to justify it's existance. Armando Mercado wrote: Not to be a wet blanket, but what is the advantage of an amateur repeater on the moon? ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] AMSAT Journal
Everyone, The May/June issue of The AMSAT Journal was just uploaded to the printer. This one was a bit late too due to some content delays, but it is finished and I think it's a great issue. Hope you enjoy it. The Editorial team worked hard on it. 73 and have a very happy and safe July 4th (for those of you in the US), Ed Long WA4SWJ Editor, The AMSAT Journal ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders?
Fabiano, You should if at all possible follow the One True Rule of Doppler tuning and tune both. If you tune both the uplink and the downlink, and the person with whom you are talking does the same, it makes the conversation much like a terrestrial HF communications. I often have a QSO from AOS to LOS on AO-7 and FO-29 without once tuning the radio manually. Most modern tracking programs, those written in the past 10 years, support this, and support the FT-847. http://www.amsat.org/amsat/features/one_true_rule.html Alan WA4SCA ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders?
Tim, Fabiano and the BB, This topic has been discussed for many decades. Many approaches have valid logic, but there needs to be some recognized standard or multiple approaches will be used. Even with a standard, there are always new (and old) users that don't know about it, and thus don't follow it OR do know and choose not to follow it. AMSAT adopted the 'One True Rule' decades ago and still stands by it. There is a copy of 'One True Rule' and a description in the AMSAT Getting Started Guide, and has been for years. 'One True Rule' needs a more visible link on the AMSAT web site, but that is another issue. So, the official AMSAT line is to follow 'One True Rule' . 73, Gould, WA4SXM AMSAT VP Operations - Original Message - From: n...@bellsouth.net To: Fabiano Moser fabianomo...@gmail.com; amsat-bb AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders? The latest edition of The ARRL Satellite Handbook contradicts earlier versions, which suggested the same approach that Drew has here (i.e., always Doppler-tune the higher frequency) in favor of parking the uplink frequency and Doppler-tuning the downlink (see the section Finding Yourself ... and Others, which begins on page 5-13 of the handbook). It occurs to me that, in general, that is the worst approach to take - although I admit to only knowing enough about all of this to be more dangerous than not. Before I added computer-aided Doppler tuning to my station, I took Francesco's approach and always tried to stay at the same downlink frequency, Doppler-tuning the uplink regardless of whether it was the higher frequency. In reality, my approach is only inconsistent with Drew's ONLY on FO-29 because, on AO-7 (when in Mode B) and VO-52 (always in Mode B), the uplink IS the higher frequency. The reason I believe the 2008 edition of The ARRL Satellite Handbook offers the worst approach has two elements: 1 - the slipping on the downlink that Francesco alludes to in his post, and 2 - the use of VO-52 as the example satellite for the description of how to find one's signal. The exercise directs readers to Doppler-tune the lower of the two frequencies to find themselves on the satellite. Later today, I will try the always tune the higher frequency rule on FO-29, which I admittedly have not every tried. I'm looking forward to learning how that works for me since the higher frequency on that satelite is the downlink. 73 to all, Tim - N3TL -- Original message from Fabiano Moser fabianomo...@gmail.com: -- Dear friends, We know that some Satellite Operators use diferent system to doppler control. For Linear Transponder 1) Adjust uplink and downlink automatic by CAT? (Not always woks, some times I´m up or down from the computer adjust) 2) Adjust uplink and downlink manual 3) Keep Uplink fixed and adjust only the Downlink frequency. What is the more indicate method to use? FT-847 have knob to adjust Uplink without change downlink VFO, and I´m using it to keep my voice in downlink at same downlink much I can. But I know some operators use fixed uplink. How you do? -- 73 Fabiano Moser CR7/PY5RX ARISS-PORTUGAL (Amateur Radio on the International Space Station) Representative at Teleconference and Portugal Telebridge Coordinator. AMRAD/AMSAT-CT http://www.amrad.pt/ariss.php There is no great talent without great will. (Honoré de Balzac) ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Richard Garriott qsl
I received my qsl today from Richard Garriott. Perry WB8OTH ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Hi W0JT: I like your simple explanation of the path loss; it should help many understand that an Active Repeater on the Moon will not require as big of an antenna system as passive Moon EME station. Now we just need to run the path loss numbers a few different ways to see which Amateur Radio Band option works the best. If we are able to piggyback on a NASA funded Unmanned Moon lander, then we have the possibility of the least expensive flight to High orbit possible. This is an opportunity we just can not miss trying for. Our only other option for affordable high orbit flight may be with China. I believe the High orbit flights with NASA and EAS are now cost prohibitive. 73 Miles WF1F MarexMG.org --- On Thu, 7/2/09, tosca...@umn.edu tosca...@umn.edu wrote: From: tosca...@umn.edu tosca...@umn.edu Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:52 AM On Jul 2 2009, kd8...@aol.com wrote: Don't want to get a whole new thing started here but - I don't think we ever went to the moon in 1969 and I don't think we will ever goto the moon - in 2012 or whenever they proposed a return to the moon With that level of disbelief I can certainly see why you are predisposed to discount the possibility of a moon-based transponder. I would love to see an amatuer repeater on the moon thou - from my understanding EME is expensive to do, so I think it would leave most of us out Not necessarily. Remember, with conventional EME, you send as large a signal as you can muster towards the moon, incur huge path losses along the way, then incur a huge loss because the moon is a very imperfect reflector of RF energy, then incur the huge path loss back from moon to earth. With a moon-based repeater, you send as large a signal as you can muster towards the moon, incur the same path loss from earth to moon; BUT, THEN you enlarge the signal with a gain antenna at the repeater, and then have a sensitive receiver that can detect and amplify the signal. The repeater then transponds the signal to a different frequency band, amplifies it as much as equipment weight and power availability allow, transmit it through a gain antenna, and only THEN incur the huge path loss from moon to earth. Because the path loss is only in a single direction, and instead of an inefficient (lossy) passive reflector, you have gain antennas for reception and transmission, plus amplification on receive and on transmit, the net earth station requirements should be much less than conventional EME. That's not to say it would be easy, just that it should be easier than conventional EME in terms of station requirements on earth. As has been mentioned numerous times already, the station requirements for the space end of the system are enormously more difficult than anything we've ever tackled so far with either LEO or HEO satellites. But there's no harm in DISCUSSING the idea, and learning about the pitfalls and possibilities as part of the discussion. Even if it never comes to pass, we should all be a bit more knowledgeable after having had the discussion. As far as the dreaming goes, wouldn't an L/S transponder be better than a V/U or U/V transponder? Granted, the path loss is greater, but the antenna gain is easier to produce... While I am a firm believer in the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!), I am getting a little tired of hearing people complain endlessly about the downfall of AO-40 being due to its complexity. Uhh, the downfall of AO-40 was human error, which will ALWAYS be an issue. The only reason that AO-40 was ever usable at all was BECAUSE of its complexity, i.e., the redundancy of multiple transponders that could be switched into place after initial failures, etc. OF COURSE, a mission to the moon needs to be as light and compact as it can be made, and therefore much simpler than AO-40, but due to the harsh environment in which it would be asked to operate, it needs to be as complex as necessary to get the job done, i.e. not as simple as AO-10 or AO-13. 73 de W0JT AMSAT-NA LM#2292 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] DO-64 software support for PSK-1(T) hardware?
I see that DO-64 / Delfi-C3 has a 1200 baud BPSK downlink and their RASCAL software uses the computer's soundcard DSP for decoding. Does the RASCAL software have an ability to support data stream from the PacComm PSK-1 combo? DO-64 Frequencies: a.. Primary telemetry downlink: 145.870 MHz 1200 Baud BPSK AX.25 400mW b.. Backup telemetry downlink: 145.930 MHz 1200 Baud BPSK AX.25 400mW c.. Linear transponder passband downlink: 145.880 - 145.920 MHz (inverting) 400mW PEP d.. Linear transponder passband uplink: 435.570 - 435.530 MHz e.. Transponder mode beacon: 145.870 MHz CW (10dB below transponder PEP) w9gb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] 24 Ghz stats
In response to Joe, W9SBD, at 24 Ghz: 6' antenna = 51 dB gain, 3dB BW = .4 deg, EIRP @1W = 126 KW 4' antenna = 48 dB gain, 3dB BW = .6 deg, EIRP @1W = 63 KW 18 antenna = 39 dB gain, 3dB BW = 1.6 deg, EIRP @1W = 8 KW All figures rounded to next whole number, gains assume 65% efficiency. We have excellent space allocations at 3.4 GHz for downlink that would be very inexpensive to build. Even a high end 30 deg./K LNB with external 10 MHz. reference is less than $500 new and will convert 3.4 Ghz to 950 Mhz. The used price is much lower. I have sketched out some ideas to compensate and downconvert a really cheap ($50) DRO LNB to a 432 MHz. IF using mostly off the shelf parts. This band is great for space comms and can use very inexpensive commercial parts. There is very little terrestrial activity to worry about and this band is not allocated for commercial downlinks in this region. In areas where it is allocated, the frequencies below 3.410 don't seem to be popular commercially. Howie AB2S ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Has anyone considered???
Quote: Has anyone considered the notion that the communications from a HEO or Moon or Mars need not be analog? Has anyone considered a digital mode such as WSJT for comms? I know for a fact people are running meteor scatter and EME using a single beam (albeit a long one) and 150 watts. This is not out of Personally, I have no use for ssb or cw, but I would definitely like to try EME with WSJT or similar modes. I would also prefer the higher frequencies. I can't aim a 2m beam out of my apartment window but higher bands would not be a problem. Indeed, that's probably the only way one could go in an urban environment. I can't see that my investment and effort would be any less for a simpler mode. (I'd go on about how 70cm is really prevalent and that, despite what some old-timers think, most hams aren't saving their pennies for the Benton Harbor lunchbox anymore.) 73, Dave, N1KGH ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: DO-64 software support for PSK-1(T) hardware?
On Thu, July 2, 2009 21:59, Greg Beat wrote: Hi Greg, I see that DO-64 / Delfi-C3 has a 1200 baud BPSK downlink and their RASCAL software uses the computer's soundcard DSP for decoding. Does the RASCAL software have an ability to support data stream from the PacComm PSK-1 combo? Look for Warble, it can be found on http://members.casema.nl/b.ubbels/pe4wj.htm Goodluck w9gb -- With regards PE0SAT Internet web-page http://www.ham.vgnet.nl/ ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Now thats pretty good! But why is it soo good, when the HEO birds were soo hard? something missing? John B. Stephensen wrote: Path loss for a lunar downlink at 435 MHz is 197 dB and the sky temperature is about 75 K. If you assume a 2.5 kHz wide SSB voice downlink and 10dB average SNR (16 dB peak) a perfect receiver needs to see -130 dBm PEP input. Given 5 dBic of gain on the moon and 17 dBic (one long yagi) of gain on the earth, the lunar transmitter needs to provide +45 dBm PEP (32 Watts) per user. 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: MM ka1...@yahoo.com To: kg4...@gmail.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:31 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future Theoretically we may have a free ride to the Moon for an Amateur radio repeater! In the past, the flight to the moon for a Amateur radio project has been cost prohibitive. We just could not afford to pay for the ride to the Moon. NASA is going to the moon with unmanned landers. NASA is open to the idea of flying some public service projects to the moon on their landers. Now there exists the possibility of getting a free ride to the moon, curtsy of NASA. What we need are the following: A stable club with funding to build a simple transponder project. A plan for a simple transponder (KISS no complex P3E). A link budget plan for a Moon transponder. One theory: We need a simple Mode-J transponder (2-meters up, 440 down). Low power consumption. Assume minimal antenna gain from the Lander (3 dBd on each antenna) Assume transmitter power 5-10 watts. Questions: What’s the link budget? How much gain will be needed on earth for such a setup? Can we build a working mockup in 1 year or less. The Moon is within Reach. Let’s Go for IT. Miles WF1F MarexMG.org --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Rebuttal - Re: Unused sats To: kg4...@gmail.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 4:46 PM I have to disagree in the strongest of terms about disregarding HEOs for now which in essence will mean to become forever. Until, or unless, we could come up with something along the lines of a Cell system of leos, we are missing one of the major advantages of Satellites and that is almost guaranteed communications for long periods (several hours) at a time... I am in no way denigrating LEOs as they have their place, but in the major schema of things HEOS will and always have rule given the state of communications art... I understand the desire to do something but I suggest that the major thrust should be directed at getting a transponder on the moon (or Mars) or some more KISS type HEOs up... Cubesats can take care of themselves if we do, Heck I would even join in and participate in something like I just mentioned, I just can not get excited about Contest style contacts with a 5-12 min window most of the time... I do that on 2 meters scatter all I want, DE Jack - KD1PE - Original Message - From: David - KG4ZLB kg4...@googlemail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Unused sats All good points but forget the HEO's for now - we just need a good source of regularly launched easy sats in LEO to augment the few working birds we have and replace what we have to as they fall out of the sky or just stop working. ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Richard Garriott qsl
I received my QSL from Richard today along with a nice letter explaining, among other things, why it's taken this long to get the 500+ QSLs out in the mail. Glenn AA5PK ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Hi Dave, Thanks for your comments. If the international project approach were a successful model we would have a constellation of amateur satellites in HEO/GEO flying now. But, different space groups have different priorities. I am not opposed to a lunar repeater, but I think we can get a bigger bang for the buck by pursuing other opitions. To me this sounds like a one time stunt that will take most of our already limited resources. 73's Armando N8IGJ - Original Message - From: D R Mynatt To: Armando Mercado Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future A moon repeater/datacom/SSTV/cw whatever else we can do, could be coordinated with *all* the various amateur groups, not just AMSAT-NA. This could make this an international project, similar to ESMO and ASMO projects under way now. It would be financially feasible if, for instance, we landed first (probably not going to happen) and, if I remember correctly, collect the cash prize for the first non-commercial moon landing. I think that's still out there, isn't it? Dave//KA0SWT ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
This I also agree with. While the Moon would be a flashy cool thing, In actuality it's less productive than a GEO bird. Now two geo birds with their dead zones out in the empty Pacific, Linked together would be the most awesome system yes? Joe WB9SBD Armando Mercado wrote: Hi Dave, Thanks for your comments. If the international project approach were a successful model we would have a constellation of amateur satellites in HEO/GEO flying now. But, different space groups have different priorities. I am not opposed to a lunar repeater, but I think we can get a bigger bang for the buck by pursuing other opitions. To me this sounds like a one time stunt that will take most of our already limited resources. 73's Armando N8IGJ - Original Message - From: D R Mynatt To: Armando Mercado Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future A moon repeater/datacom/SSTV/cw whatever else we can do, could be coordinated with *all* the various amateur groups, not just AMSAT-NA. This could make this an international project, similar to ESMO and ASMO projects under way now. It would be financially feasible if, for instance, we landed first (probably not going to happen) and, if I remember correctly, collect the cash prize for the first non-commercial moon landing. I think that's still out there, isn't it? Dave//KA0SWT ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2214 - Release Date: 07/02/09 05:54:00 ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders?
- Original Message - From: Fabiano Moser fabianomo...@gmail.com To: amsat-bb AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:19 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] How you do DOPPLER correction in Linear Transponders? Dear friends, We know that some Satellite Operators use diferent system to doppler control. For Linear Transponder 1) Adjust uplink and downlink automatic by CAT? (Not always woks, some times I´m up or down from the computer adjust) 2) Adjust uplink and downlink manual 3) Keep Uplink fixed and adjust only the Downlink frequency. What is the more indicate method to use? FT-847 have knob to adjust Uplink without change downlink VFO, and I´m using it to keep my voice in downlink at same downlink much I can. But I know some operators use fixed uplink. How you do? -- 73 Fabiano Moser CR7/PY5RX ARISS-PORTUGAL (Amateur Radio on the International Space Station) Representative at Teleconference and Portugal Telebridge Coordinator. AMRAD/AMSAT-CT http://www.amrad.pt/ariss.php Hi Fabiano, CR7/PY5RX My preferred metod (from OSCAR-6 to AO40) is to adjust only the Uplink frequency in order to keep my voice in downlink as clear as possible exactly as you actually do manually. If the station in contact with me moves up or down I invite the operator to move the VFO of his TX to come again in my constant receiving frequency. 73 de i8CVS Domenico ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
In a message dated 02/07/2009 13:42:15 GMT Standard Time, ka1...@yahoo.com writes: Right now this is the concept theory phase. Is a 2m/440 SSB transponder practical? If our analysis proves that it is not, then we can move on higher in frequency until we find an affordable solution (within the ITU guidelines 2m to 440. ? No, too much noise from Earth on 2m and too much path loss on 440. 440 to 2m is a much better solution David ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] 13 colonies baloney
Mr. Semple I could not be bothered logging into QRZ.com for your email address. I did not appreciate being bumped off echo while trying to reach w8mrr. Your lame excuse of celebrating the 13 colonies to hog the satellite was inappropriate. Please dont bump me again. America is nothing like what fought the original revolution. Who are you kidding, not me. pat n2oeq ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
Hi Nigel, Indeed, I can hear the ker-chunking and cordless phone calls now. :-) Armando, N8IGJ Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:23:08 + From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF ni...@ngunn.net Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future To: Armando Mercado am25...@triton.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Message-ID: 4a4cecfc.6070...@ngunn.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed It would be the only repeater anywhere that I've seen that would get sufficient use to justify it's existance. Armando Mercado wrote: Not to be a wet blanket, but what is the advantage of an amateur repeater on the moon? ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
It seems to me that the correct choice is the highest frequency we can get on board for at least 24dB at the longest length of antenna that we would be allowed to send up. Gregg Wonderly W5GGW Robert Bruninga wrote: Why go with the minimal antenna gain? ... any antenna with a 3 db point that exceeds 6.5 degrees is just wasting transmitter power. I think that would be about a 24 dB gain antenna. Pretty big and would take some careful alignment... Kinda like a realy big EME array Just remember what an Oscar 10 station took to have reliable communications, At Apogee it was only 35,000 miles away, the Moon is ...] [250,000 miles] Which is 7 times farther, squared or 50 times more power (about 17 dB). BUT one easy way to get gain is to use just a long coaxial gain cable. I think it takes about 22 feet of coaxial dipole elements at 2 meters to give about 6 dB of gain. So laying down 6 dB gain segments on the rock of the moon is as easy as unrolling a spool of cable. Unrolling 8 of these with the right spacing could yield about 17 dB. Of course this woiuld only point straight up, so it would need to be on a moon base in the middle of the earth facing side. But since there is a lot of interest in moon bases near the poles where there might be water, then a similar array of layed down coaxial cable arrays could be phased horizontally to point at earth. Actually, just about any direction can be obtained with the right spacing. ONLY problem of course is there has to be someone with legs to roll out the cables. Just a thought. Bob, WB4APR ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Software Commodore 64
I had a tracking program back when. As I recall it would not work after the year 2000. I gave away all my 64 stuff years ago. 73 Bob W7LRD - Original Message - From: Jean-François Ménard va...@me.com To: AMSAT Mailing list amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 4:09:57 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [amsat-bb] Software Commodore 64 Hi, Hey, I'm not crazy... Hi !! I'm looking for satellite prediction software or similar for Commodore 64. Anybody know where I can find this !?!? 73 From an old fashion guy of the '80 -- Jean-François Ménard VA2SS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= AMSAT www.amsat.org ARRL www.arrl.org =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: 13 colonies baloney
Mr. McGrane, As the operator who emailed the organizer of rhe 13 Colonies special event to request that he include satellites - and as the operator who solicited all of the satellite stations who are operating with a special call sign - you should direct your vitriolic comments to me, not to one of the stations who agreed to assist me in getting as many of the Original 13 Colonies on the air as possible. I regret that you don't share my (and others') enthusiasm for this special event. I wasn't even able to work AO-51 last night because of all the stations trying to call others using special call signs from the colonies. Please ... be angry and frustrated with me, not with anyone else. And please feel free to email me on or off this BB. I'll provide a phone number if you'd like to call and rip me by voice. Whatever. And for what it's worth, I believe it was I who stepped on you to work W8MRR, not WA3SWJ - all the more reason to give me what for, I suppose Sincerely, Tim - N3TL/K2G (Georgia) -- Original message from Thomas McGrane n2...@aceweb.com: -- Mr. Semple I could not be bothered logging into QRZ.com for your email address. I did not appreciate being bumped off echo while trying to reach w8mrr. Your lame excuse of celebrating the 13 colonies to hog the satellite was inappropriate. Please dont bump me again. America is nothing like what fought the original revolution. Who are you kidding, not me. pat n2oeq ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: AO-40 telemetry database
this page has some info, good luck http://www.amsat.org/amsat/sats/ao40/ao40-tlm.html ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] AO-40 telemetry
Hi Jim, Is this what you are looking for? ftp://ftp.amsat.org/amsat/telemetry/ao40/ 73, Mark N8MH ___ I'm looking for an online repository of AO-40 housekeeping telemetry for a space weather study. May I ask for any pointers to such a database? Jim j...@coloradosatellite.com w...@amsat.org Mark L. Hammond [N8MH] ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
At 02:30 AM 7/3/2009, James French wrote: Why not use a L/s, U/L. or a U/s transponder for this? Why limit ourselves to V/u for everything? Aren't we supposed to 'experiment' with the higher frequencies we have allocated? I agree. I believe the Moon is a job for the microwave bands. Antenna gain on both ends is easier to produce (for a fixed dish/array, the Moon end will be gain limited by the need to have the beam cover for the varying position of the Earth due to libration). Comeing up with a method to align the antenna initially will be an interesting challenge. That will have to be automated, even if it's a one off process. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
At 03:17 AM 7/3/2009, MM wrote: Hi James: I am in favor of any band that has the desired results. I just used the 2/440 bands as the opener. Remember the higher in frequency the less affordable the system becomes and the fewer Amateur Radio operators and Short Wave listeners will have access to those frequencies. We do not want to design a system that only 2 people can afford. V/U are the bands with the _most_ expensive antenna requirements, because of the sheer size of the arrays required on both ends. L/S would be much cheaper, and particularly the S side is nowadays well supported, just have to enlarge those dishes a bit. In years gone by, I would never have been able to operate a HEO on 2m and 70cm. However, microwave bands were more practical at the time. Even now, I still believe a HEO would work better for me on microwaves, because of the more modest mechanical requirements. I don't have the mechanical skills to hoist large antenna arrays into the sky. A small dish? That's much more likely. :) 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
High orbit launch prices It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG). If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it. I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride. In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc. Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom) No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system) NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope) Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes. It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment. Sincerely Miles WF1F MarexMG.org ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would give folks some specifics to address. *LUNAR System* Modulation type: Mode: Power source: Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): Lunar receiver (type and band): Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): Lunar controller (type and capability): Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: Length of time the system is expected to operate: Periods that the system is expected to be available for use: Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station equipment would be needed to use this lunar system. *EARTH Station* Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above mentioned lunar system: Transmitter (type, output power and band): TX antenna (type and gain): Receiver (type and band): RX antenna (type and gain): Antenna tracking system: The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system. Kenneth From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO High orbit launch prices It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG). If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it. I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride. In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc. Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom) No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system) NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope) Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes. It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment. Sincerely Miles WF1F MarexMG.org ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Original 13 Colonies update
Is there anyone active in DE? For WAS I worked a portable. I noticed we did not work DE for Field Day satellite or otherwise. 73, Joe kk0sd -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of n...@bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:54 AM To: Luc Leblanc; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Original 13 Colonies update Luc and all, My apologies for not posting this sooner. Here is the full list of operators - NOTE that we only have 11 of the 13 colonies active. If there is ANYone in Connecticut or Delaware who can work some passes, please contact me off the BB. Thank you. K2A-NY WB2OQQ K2B-VANL7VX K2C-RIN1RCN K2D-CTNOT currently active on the satellites K2E-DENOT currently active on the satellites K2F-MD...WA3SWJ K2G-GAN3TL K2H-MAKB1PVH K2I-NJW4MPS K2J-NCND9M, operating as K2T - See note below K2K-NHN1XED K2L-SC...K4YYL K2M-PAN2AUO K2T/Mobile-NC (Will count as a contact for North Carolina on Certificate) I hope this is helpful to everyone. 73 to all, Tim -- Original message from Luc Leblanc luclebla...@videotron.ca: -- On 30 Jun 2009 at 12:32, n...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hey everyone, I've just heard from Gary, N2AUO, who is interested in activating Pennsylvania on the satellites during the Original 13 Colonies special event this week. That gives us 10 of the Original 13 Colonies that will be active on the satellites during this event! Thanks to Gary for his interest in participating. At the request of the event's organizer (Ken. KU2US), those of us active on the satellites will be IDing with our own call sign/special event call. For example, I will be IDing as N3TL/K2G. I'll add that I'm the station in Georgia for the special event, just to be clear. Ken also has advised that he is adding a special satellite designator to the certificates for those who earn them via satellite contacts. Thanks to him for doing this. For the latest information on the Original 13 Colonies Special Event, please go to www.QRZ.com/ku2us. The event begins at 1300 UTC July 1 and ends at 0359 UTC on July 5. 73 to all, Tim - N3TL On the 2145Z AO-51 pass i was able to get theses one below those with their call sign and heard those with a H K2A-NY K2B-VA K2C-RIN1RCN K2D-CT K2E-DE K2F-MD...WA3SWJ K2G-GA K2H-MAKB1PVH K2I-NJW4MPS K2J-NC K2K-NH K2L-SC...H... K2M-PA K2T/Mobile-NC (Will count as a contact for North Carolina on Certificate) 30% on the first shot! did a list exist with the satellite operator call sign? As a suggestion those available can post here which satellite they will be listening and operate. - Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Software Commodore 64
*Somewhere* in this grand mess of mine I have a program called Super VR85 Tracker that I used for pass predictions when I ran a C=64 and C=128. I worked perfectly, and was what I used to track the MIR so I could make packet contacts with it. I'd print out the passes on my dot-matrix printer, and then run the DigiCom64 software to control my AA Engineering W2UP modem for packet use. I couldn't afford the PK-64 until years later, but somehow it all worked, and I made numerous packet contacts with the MIR. Amazing what you could do with an 8-bit machine back then! *IF* I can find the disk, I'll fire up the C=128 and make you a copy. 73, Jim KQ6EA --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Jean-François Ménard va...@me.com wrote: From: Jean-François Ménard va...@me.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Software Commodore 64 To: AMSAT Mailing list amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 4:09 PM Hi, Hey, I'm not crazy... Hi !! I'm looking for satellite prediction software or similar for Commodore 64. Anybody know where I can find this !?!? 73 From an old fashion guy of the '80 -- Jean-François Ménard VA2SS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= AMSAT www.amsat.org ARRL www.arrl.org =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Yaesu LVB Nova issues - Help
Thanks for those answering my questions on my odd 5400 motors 5600B control box situation. Now I have it working with LVB Tracker and Nova. But the motors stop tracking after a few minutes. First it seems to track fine, with motors turning as Nova instructs. But after a few minutes of activating and turning motors here and there, the motors don't seem to respond to the Nova software to move any more. I have to shut down Nova (getting a cannot write to file error), reboot the computer (otherwise when I go to Nova I get an error msg that the device is already connected? (but no response)), and restart Nova.? Then the motors will seem to track as Nova directs, but only for a few minutes and then motors stop working again.? I cannot tell if it is a computer problem (IBM T41 laptop, Win XP), or LVB (just got), or what? Any clues?? Thanks for the space. Bennett ko2ok ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: The Moon is our Future
- Original Message - From: MM ka1...@yahoo.com To: kg4...@gmail.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; Jack K. kd1p...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:31 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] The Moon is our Future We need a simple Mode-J transponder (2-meters up, 440 down). Low power consumption. Assume minimal antenna gain from the Lander (3 dBd on each antenna) Assume transmitter power 5-10 watts. Questions: What’s the link budget? How much gain will be needed on earth for such a setup? Can we build a working mockup in 1 year or less. The Moon is within Reach. Let’s Go for IT. Miles WF1F MarexMG.org Hi Miles, WF1F The gain of the 2 meters antenna on the Lander is 3 dBd = 5.14 dBi Assume that the Noise Figure of the 2 meter receiver is 0.5 dB = 35 kelvin and the sky temperature as seen by the 2 meter Lander antenna looking at the earth is conservatively 290 kelvin but (probably more ). The isotropic path loss earth-moon in 2 meters at an average distance of 380.000 km is 187 dB You don't specify the IF bandwidth of your transponder so that for simplicity I will assume that only one QSO will be possible in SSB and 3 on CW in a total BW = 2.5 KHz With the above data the calculated Noise Floor (KTB) of the above 2 meter Lander receiver is -139 dBm We assume to use an earth 2 meters antenna with a gain of 13 dBi and a power of 100 watt pep in 2 meters. UPLINK BUDGED: Earth TX power 100 watt.+ 50 dBm Earth antenna gain. .+ 13 dB -- Earth EIRP.+ 63 dBm 2 m isotropic attenuation earth-moon..-187 dB -- Isoptropic power received on the moon .- 124 dBm 2 meters Lander antenna gain.+ 5 dBi -- Power applied to the 2 m Lander receiver..- 119 dBm Lander receiver 2 m Noise Floor...- 139 dBm -- S/N ratio available from the Lander receiver.. + 20 dB COMMENT: With a 2 meter signal +20 dB above the noise floor the 70 cm TX on the Lander transponder is in condition to supply a noise-less power between 5 to 10 watt pep to the 70 cm TX antenna. DOWNLINK BUDGED: The gain of the 70 cm antenna on the Lander is 3 dBd = 5.14 dBi and the 70 cm power is 10 watt pep Assume that the Noise Figure of the 70 cm earth receiver is 0.5 dB = 35 kelvin and the sky temperature as seen by the 70 cm antenna looking at the moon is 75 kelvin Assume that the antenna gain of the 70 cm earth receiver is 18 dBi The isotropic path loss earth-moon in 70 cm at an average distance of 380.000 km is 197 dB With the above data the calculated Noise Floor (KTB) of the 70 cm ground receiver is -144 dBm Lander 70 cm TX power 10 watt...+ 40 dBm Lander antenna gain...+ 5 dBi -- 70 cm EIRP from the moon...+ 45 dBm 70 cm moon-earth isotropic attenuation .-197 dB -- 70 cm power available in to isotropic antenna -152 dBm 70 cm earth receiving antenna gain..+ 18 dBi -- 70 cm power on input of the earth receiver.-134 dBm 70 cm Noise Floor of the earth receiver..-144 dBm -- S/N ratio at the output of 70 cm receiver...+ 10 dB COMMENT: Using a Lander transponder on the moon with 2 meters and 70 cm antenna's gain in the order of 5 dBi will not produce serious problems of pointing at the earth due of libration. If the Lander transponder is capable to develope 10 watt pep and the IF bandwidth is very narrow in the order of 2.5 KHz it is possible to accomodate one SSB QSO or 3 CW QSO just using the actually available TX and RX equipments for satellite communications i.e. For the uplink in 2 meters 100 watt pep and a 13 dBi antenna gain For the downlink in 70 cm a receiving system with an overall Noise Figure of 0.5 dB and antenna gain of 18 dBi The rate of change of the frequency due of doppler shift in 2 meters and 70 cm is very slow and easily manually compensated even into only a 2.5 KHz bandwidth The antenna polarization is very important because a linear signal transmitted from the earth or from the moon by stations located in different continents can be reversed from Vertical to Horizontal polarization so that at least on the earth circular RHCP and LHCP switchable polarization is recommended. Best 73 de i8CVS Domenico
