date:20120924

Their original 3u design included a transponder. Hopefully they will overlook 
the boorish behavior and consider it for follow on projects.

Good luck and congratulations in advance on the deployment of F-1

73, Drew KO4MA
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 24, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Dave Webb KB1PVH kb1...@gmail.com wrote:

 Insult them, that's a great way to get groups to consider a repeater on
 board. Believe it or not, some people enjoy the peacefulness of receiving
 telemetry versus the the fight with inconsiderate operators.
 
 Dave-KB1PVH
 
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

2012-09-24 Thread Trevor .

Thanks for the update Thu. 

I appreciate the work that you and the students from the FPT University have 
put into this project.

I hope the deployment of F-1 and the other CubeSats will be a success and I 
look forward to receiving the signals. 

73 Trevor M5AKA

--- On Mon, 24/9/12, Vu Trong Thu th...@fpt.edu.vn wrote:

 From: Vu Trong Thu th...@fpt.edu.vn
 Subject: [amsat-bb] Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
 Date: Monday, 24 September, 2012, 12:29
 Dear everyone,
 
 According to latest news from JAXA, deployment of the 5
 CubeSats to space by
 the robotic arm of Kibo module on the ISS will be carried
 out on Thursday,
 September  27. Here is the plan:
 
 -          First, 15h10 to 15h20:
 WE WISH and RAIKO from POD #1
 
 -          Second,16h30 to 16h40:
 TechEdSat, F-1 và FITSAT-1 from POD#2
 
  
 
 All time in UTC. The event is planned to be broadcasted live
 on the
 following websites:
 
 http://iss.jaxa.jp/iss/jaxa_exp/hoshide/library/live/ 
 
 http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv 
 
  
 
 30 minutes after deployment from the station, F-1 will begin
 transmitting
 beacon alternatively on its main and backup channels.
 Telemetry and beacon
 data from F-1 contain critical information about the
 satellite’s health
 (battery  solar cell voltages, temperature readings)
 and they are very
 important to us, especially in the first week of operation.
 Thus, we would
 like to ask the amateur radio community to help in tracking
 and receiving
 data from F-1 CubeSat.
 
  
 
 Here’s a quick summary of F-1’ frequencies:
 
 -          145.980 MHz: main
 channel, 1.0W RF output, FM, AFSK 1200bps, one
 telemetry packet every 30 seconds, operates in the dark by
 default (but can
 be commanded later to operate in sunlight as well)
 
 -          437.485 MHz: backup
 channel, 0.2W RF output, FM, PWM CW beacon,
 each beacon transmission lasts about 20 seconds then 60
 seconds delay, only
 operates in sunlight
 
  
 
 More information and guide to download F-1 telemetry decoder
 can be found at
 http://fspace.edu.vn/?page_id=27. Decoded data can be
 submitted to us via
 the telemetry decoder or by sending to me directly (th...@fpt.edu.vn),
 audio
 records are highly appreciated. 
 
  
 
 Please feel free to send me a message if there is any
 question. We would
 really appreciate your kind support!
 
  
 
 73,
 
 Thu XV9AA
 
 F-1 CubeSat Project Manager
 
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 satellite program!
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 10:56 AM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:

Their original 3u design included a transponder. Hopefully they will
overlook the boorish behavior and consider it for follow on projects.


Or maybe we will consider denying them the use of ham frequencies?

--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

2012-09-24 Thread John Becker

For what its worth. . . 

some of the post to this subject seem to have been posted in the 
HTML mode. 

This being a plain text list was just unreadable.
Only fix was to delete.

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

Or maybe they will be reallocated to them. They use them more than we do.
Maybe hams in your world own frequencies but in tge USA their use is a
privilege not a right.

John, AG9D
On Sep 24, 2012 11:26 AM, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote:

 On 09/24/2012 10:56 AM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:

 Their original 3u design included a transponder. Hopefully they will
 overlook the boorish behavior and consider it for follow on projects.


 Or maybe we will consider denying them the use of ham frequencies?

 --
 73, de Gus 8P6SM
 The Easternmost Isle
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 http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat



On Sep 24, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Gus 8P6SM 8p6sm@
 
 Or maybe we will consider denying them the use of ham frequencies?
 
 -- 
 73, de Gus 8P6SM
 The Easternmost Isle
 ___

Under what authority? They are licensed amateur radio operators, and self 
training and education has always been a tenet of amateur radio, whether you 
approve or not.

The level of discourse around here lately has been pretty dismal. If we are 
judged by our behavior on this list (and we are), I'm not surprised so few 
educational satellite programs want to work with us. The arrogance and 
entitlement mentality is embarrassing.

73, Drew KO4MA
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

2012-09-24 Thread Mark L. Hammond

Hello Vu,

Congratulations to you and your students.  I can only imagine the thrill of 
anticipating the release from the ISS of the physical evidence of your hard 
work.  We shared the same excitement when ARISSat-1 was released.  

The F-1 telemetry program installed just fine.  It will be my privilege to 
receive and forward to you and your team F-1 telemetry.  Hopefully you and your 
students will learn a great deal about satellite engineering, assembly, and 
operations.  This telemetry information should prove useful to you in the 
development of future missions. 

Best wishes for remaining on the schedule for release, and for a successful 
mission.

73,

Mark N8MH
AMSAT VP for Educational Relations



At 06:29 PM 9/24/2012 +0700, Vu Trong Thu wrote:
Dear everyone,

According to latest news from JAXA, deployment of the 5 CubeSats to space by
the robotic arm of Kibo module on the ISS will be carried out on Thursday,
September  27. Here is the plan:

-  First, 15h10 to 15h20: WE WISH and RAIKO from POD #1

-  Second,16h30 to 16h40: TechEdSat, F-1 và FITSAT-1 from POD#2

 

All time in UTC. The event is planned to be broadcasted live on the
following websites:

http://iss.jaxa.jp/iss/jaxa_exp/hoshide/library/live/ 

http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv 

 

30 minutes after deployment from the station, F-1 will begin transmitting
beacon alternatively on its main and backup channels. Telemetry and beacon
data from F-1 contain critical information about the satellites health
(battery  solar cell voltages, temperature readings) and they are very
important to us, especially in the first week of operation. Thus, we would
like to ask the amateur radio community to help in tracking and receiving
data from F-1 CubeSat.

 

Heres a quick summary of F-1 frequencies:

-  145.980 MHz: main channel, 1.0W RF output, FM, AFSK 1200bps, one
telemetry packet every 30 seconds, operates in the dark by default (but can
be commanded later to operate in sunlight as well)

-  437.485 MHz: backup channel, 0.2W RF output, FM, PWM CW beacon,
each beacon transmission lasts about 20 seconds then 60 seconds delay, only
operates in sunlight

 

More information and guide to download F-1 telemetry decoder can be found at
http://fspace.edu.vn/?page_id=27. Decoded data can be submitted to us via
the telemetry decoder or by sending to me directly (th...@fpt.edu.vn), audio
records are highly appreciated. 

 

Please feel free to send me a message if there is any question. We would
really appreciate your kind support!

 

73,

Thu XV9AA

F-1 CubeSat Project Manager

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[amsat-bb] ARRL - Michael Owen VK3KI (SK)

2012-09-24 Thread Trevor .

ARRL note the contribution of Michael Owen VK3KI (SK) to the Amateur-satellite 
Service:

“Among the assignments that Michael drew at WARC-79 was to draft a resolution 
to exempt the Amateur-Satellite Service from coordination procedures that 
otherwise would have bogged us down in endless paperwork and great expense. As 
an attorney it was just the sort of thing he was good at. His work has stood 
the test of time, and it remains in effect to this day. No good deed goes 
unpunished, so in 2003, he was brought back to Geneva as a member of the IARU 
team to handle the rewrite of Article 25, the rules that apply specifically to 
the Amateur and Amateur-Satellite Services.

See 
http://www.arrl.org/news/iaru-region-3-chairman-michael-owen-vk3ki-sk

73 Trevor M5AKA


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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 12:39 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

Or maybe they will be reallocated to them.


The chances of which increases, with every satellite launched that uses 
the amateur bands but carries no amateur payload.



They use them more than we do.


Whose fault is that?


Maybe hams in your world own frequencies but in tge USA their use is
a privilege not a right.


In my world, hams have a RIGHT to properly use the frequencies that are 
ALLOCATED for their use.  And a RIGHT to complain when they are misused.


--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

In the states ham bands ate under constant pressure from commercial
intetests on the FCC for reallocation. Having those birds up there proves
the need and helps stave off reallocation. If we leabe them unused they
will go away. If I could launch a cube sat for my experimental interests it
would use ham bands and may only send back tlm. So am I prohibited from
that?

John, AG9D
On Sep 24, 2012 12:10 PM, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote:

 On 09/24/2012 12:39 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

 Or maybe they will be reallocated to them.


 The chances of which increases, with every satellite launched that uses
 the amateur bands but carries no amateur payload.

  They use them more than we do.


 Whose fault is that?

  Maybe hams in your world own frequencies but in tge USA their use is
 a privilege not a right.


 In my world, hams have a RIGHT to properly use the frequencies that are
 ALLOCATED for their use.  And a RIGHT to complain when they are misused.

 --
 73, de Gus 8P6SM
 The Easternmost Isle

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

2012-09-24 Thread Mike Rupprecht

Dear Thu,
... good luck for an successful mission! As you already know - my station is
up and running to support you and your student group. Looking forward to
receiving F-1 telemetry.

Best wishes, 73 
Mike
DK3WN

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] Im
Auftrag von Vu Trong Thu
Gesendet: Montag, 24. September 2012 13:29
An: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Betreff: [amsat-bb] Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

Dear everyone,

According to latest news from JAXA, deployment of the 5 CubeSats to space by
the robotic arm of Kibo module on the ISS will be carried out on Thursday,
September  27. Here is the plan:

-  First, 15h10 to 15h20: WE WISH and RAIKO from POD #1

-  Second,16h30 to 16h40: TechEdSat, F-1 và FITSAT-1 from POD#2

 

All time in UTC. The event is planned to be broadcasted live on the
following websites:

http://iss.jaxa.jp/iss/jaxa_exp/hoshide/library/live/ 

http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv 

 

30 minutes after deployment from the station, F-1 will begin transmitting
beacon alternatively on its main and backup channels. Telemetry and beacon
data from F-1 contain critical information about the satellite’s health
(battery  solar cell voltages, temperature readings) and they are very
important to us, especially in the first week of operation. Thus, we would
like to ask the amateur radio community to help in tracking and receiving
data from F-1 CubeSat.

 

Here’s a quick summary of F-1’ frequencies:

-  145.980 MHz: main channel, 1.0W RF output, FM, AFSK 1200bps, one
telemetry packet every 30 seconds, operates in the dark by default (but can
be commanded later to operate in sunlight as well)

-  437.485 MHz: backup channel, 0.2W RF output, FM, PWM CW beacon,
each beacon transmission lasts about 20 seconds then 60 seconds delay, only
operates in sunlight

 

More information and guide to download F-1 telemetry decoder can be found at
http://fspace.edu.vn/?page_id=27. Decoded data can be submitted to us via
the telemetry decoder or by sending to me directly (th...@fpt.edu.vn), audio
records are highly appreciated. 

 

Please feel free to send me a message if there is any question. We would
really appreciate your kind support!

 

73,

Thu XV9AA

F-1 CubeSat Project Manager

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 01:32 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

If I could launch a cube sat for my experimental interests it would use
ham bands and may only send back tlm. So am I prohibited from that?


I, for one, would oppose the launch of, and object to your Cube Sat's 
use of amateur frequencies, if it used those frequencies for non-ham 
purposes.


Perhaps you should read ITU Radio Regulations – Article 1, specifically 
parts 55 thru 57:


  1.55 Space research service
  A radiocommunication service in which spacecraft or other objects
  in space are used for scientific or technological research purposes.

  1.56 Amateur service
  A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training,
  intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by
  amateurs, that is, by duly authorized persons interested in radio
  technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

  1.57 Amateur-satellite service
  A radiocommunication service using space stations on earth satellites
  for the same purposes as those of the amateur service.

We need to be VERY careful to maintain a DISTINCTION between 1.55 and 
1.57.  Otherwise, all those who currently operate under 1.55 can simply 
start freely using our frequencies and claim to be operating under 1.57 
without let or hindrance.  To say that whatever you do, if you simply 
claim it is self-training or technical investigation you get free 
use of the ham bands is to open a particularly nasty can of worms.


--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] UT1FG QSLs

2012-09-24 Thread Dave Webb KB1PVH

For those interested,

My grid confirmations just arrived in the mail today from Yuri's QSL
manager, so I'm sure those of you who are waiting may see them soon also.

Dave-KB1PVH

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

2012-09-24 Thread Bill Ress

Drew responded very appropriately. I would suggest that no further 
reply's are needed to Gus on the subject and that this discourse end 
lest we get into another waste of time and bandwidth.


Good luck to all upcoming ISS CubeSat launches.

Regards...Bill - N6GHz

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

I fail to see where your references prohibit such activity as long as hams
are involved. Would a school ham radio club be prohibited ? I think the
main issue is that these birds don't satisfy YOUR personal interest. Just
as ragchewing and dx-ing don't satisfy the schools exerimental goals. So
maybe helping them build a transponder would satisfy both. But then its not
HEO so maybe just let the freqs die until funding is there for the
appropriate use. By then thiae freqs will have long since been reallocated

Its beating a dead horse. That want HEO dx-ing and ragchewing are free to
build one. You don't need AMSAT anywhere do do that. Channel your energy
into such a constructive project. I seriously doubt the complaining will
get anything done.

John, AG9D
On Sep 24, 2012 1:03 PM, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote:

 On 09/24/2012 01:32 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

 If I could launch a cube sat for my experimental interests it would use
 ham bands and may only send back tlm. So am I prohibited from that?


 I, for one, would oppose the launch of, and object to your Cube Sat's use
 of amateur frequencies, if it used those frequencies for non-ham purposes.

 Perhaps you should read ITU Radio Regulations – Article 1, specifically
 parts 55 thru 57:

   1.55 Space research service
   A radiocommunication service in which spacecraft or other objects
   in space are used for scientific or technological research purposes.

   1.56 Amateur service
   A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training,
   intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by
   amateurs, that is, by duly authorized persons interested in radio
   technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

   1.57 Amateur-satellite service
   A radiocommunication service using space stations on earth satellites
   for the same purposes as those of the amateur service.

 We need to be VERY careful to maintain a DISTINCTION between 1.55 and
 1.57.  Otherwise, all those who currently operate under 1.55 can simply
 start freely using our frequencies and claim to be operating under 1.57
 without let or hindrance.  To say that whatever you do, if you simply claim
 it is self-training or technical investigation you get free use of the
 ham bands is to open a particularly nasty can of worms.

 --
 73, de Gus 8P6SM
 The Easternmost Isle

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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 02:56 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

I fail to see where your references prohibit such activity as long as
hams are involved. Would a school ham radio club be prohibited ?


Of course.  IF what they were doing was not ham-related.  Just because 
you have a ham license doesn't mean you can get on the air and use the 
frequencies for whatever you like.


Would it be OK for NASA to use ham frequencies for their Mars Rover 
project, just because someone at NASA went out and got themself a ham 
ticket?  After all, the Mars Rover programme is undoubtedly educational, 
and also a technical investigation.



I think the main issue is that these birds don't satisfy YOUR personal
interest.  Just as ragchewing and dx-ing don't satisfy the schools
exerimental goals.


And neither should the schools assume that the amateur radio community 
automatically stands ready to satisfy THEIR needs, no matter what those 
needs are.



So maybe helping them build a transponder would satisfy both.


Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise.  In fact, maybe we 
should PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data 
pathways they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same 
time provides US with something that provides OUR needs.


It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational 
opportunities.  The theory goes, as I understand it:  Since we can't 
afford to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational 
institutions (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable 
frequencies -- and potentially a global network of groundstations -- IN 
EXCHANGE for some sort of communications functionality that can be used 
BY US.


Except it isn't happening.  One satellite after another, they get what 
we have to offer (bandwidth), and they offer us... NOTHING in return.



But  then its not HEO so maybe just let the freqs die until funding
is there for the appropriate use. By then thiae freqs will have long
since been reallocated


I used to enjoy working HEO, but I am not against LEO satellites, and 
have worked quite a few myself.  But low orbit or highly elliptical, the 
more people that end up using our frequencies for non-amateur purposes, 
the greater the case that is being made for the reallocation of those 
frequencies.



Its beating a dead horse. That want HEO dx-ing and ragchewing are free
to build one. You don't need AMSAT anywhere do do that.


I thought that's exactly what AMSAT was created for.  The construction, 
launch, care and feeding of satellites for use by the community of 
amateur radio operators.  Guess not, eh?



Channel your energy into such a constructive project. I seriously doubt
the complaining will get anything done.


Neither, apparently, will AMSAT.

--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread Barry Baines

Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca; 
s=s1024;t=1348432005; 
bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKuTO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE=
Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be 
for a P3E class satellite ?

Regards
Mark Spencer
VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
Mark:

Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a 
satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of 
Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more like $10 million, 
though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure 
than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively 
expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) 
is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. 

The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the money 
that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 
1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL 
matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL 
and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those 
aspects of the program that they were handling.   AMSAT also developed the SBS 
(Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame 
that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle.  At that time, we believe we had pretty 
much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community 
in North America.  Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't 
get us 20% of the current launch costs.Clearly, we must expand beyond the 
amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires 
both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO sat!
 ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a Case for 
Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we 
have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.

Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major 
inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself 
(though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and 
whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with 
P3-D).  

So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT 
might be able to afford under current circumstances:

The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) 
was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we opted for a 1u 
cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we 
couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the 
concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would 
likely increase in cost of time.  

To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost to 
launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO.  The current 
cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling 
of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US 
Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real 
money to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX  (AMSAT's 
VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university 
novelty to a standard spacecraft specification.   This cost increase is the 
reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012) 
and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to 
afford launches.  Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars 
donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than launches if we can get 
others to support our launch costs.

BTW, Aviation Week  Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in 
the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites:  Doing More with Less) which 
highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be 
the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same deployment 
scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese student 
 F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.   Information about TechEdSat may 
be found here:  
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html

Coupled with the launch costs is the justification for launches.  NASA

[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread Mark L. Hammond

At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO
for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke
was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US
dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money)

So the number holds.

Mark N8MH

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote:
 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
 From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@
 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
 Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be
 for a P3E class satellite ?

 Regards
 Mark Spencer
 VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
 Mark:

 Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a 
 satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of 
 Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more like $10 million, 
 though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate 
 figure than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things 
 prohibitively expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the 
 spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund 
 raising efforts.

 The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the money 
 that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 
 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL 
 matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL 
 and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those 
 aspects of the program that they were handling.   AMSAT also developed the 
 SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the 
 frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle.  At that time, we believe we 
 had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur 
 radio community in North America.  Unfortunately, that considerable 
 fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.
 Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of 
 this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to 
 what a HEO s!
 at!
  ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a Case for 
 Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we 
 have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.

 Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major 
 inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself 
 (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and 
 whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with 
 P3-D).

 So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what 
 AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances:

 The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) 
 was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we opted for a 
 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- 
 we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time 
 and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that 
 would likely increase in cost of time.

 To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost to 
 launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO.  The 
 current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). 
 The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in 
 cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and 
 others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as 
 Tony, AA2TX  (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has 
 evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification.   
 This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 
 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA 
 grants in order to be able to afford launches.  Clearly, it make much more 
 sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather 
 than launches if we can get others to support our launch costs.

 BTW, Aviation Week  Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in 
 the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites:  Doing More with Less) which 
 highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be 
 the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same deployment 
 scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese 
 student  F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.   Information about 
 TechEdSat may be found here:  
 http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html

 Coupled with the launch costs is the justification for launches.  NASA and 
 others (such as the

[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

 
 Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise.  In fact, maybe we should 
 PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data pathways 
 they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same time provides 
 US with something that provides OUR needs.
 
 It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational 
 opportunities.  The theory goes, as I understand it:  Since we can't afford 
 to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational institutions 
 (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable frequencies -- and 
 potentially a global network of groundstations -- IN EXCHANGE for some sort 
 of communications functionality that can be used BY US.
 

We could even call it AMSAT Fox! And take donations on the front page of the 
website via PayPal! And use the same avionics on projects with other entities, 
and apply for free educational launches!

73, Drew KO4MA
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

Well Gus, I'm guessing you read Barry's comments regarding launch cost. So
write the check and we'll be ready.  By the time $10M is raised, the cost
will have tripled. We are talking about hams, not sure how their wallets
are where you are but here in the states, if something is listed at 50
cents they'll try and screw you down to 5. So good luck raising that kind
of cash in the a reasonable amount of time. Until a school or someone else
needs a HEO bird, the path is pretty clear for now.

John, AG9D

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote:

 On 09/24/2012 02:56 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

 I fail to see where your references prohibit such activity as long as
 hams are involved. Would a school ham radio club be prohibited ?


 Of course.  IF what they were doing was not ham-related.  Just because you
 have a ham license doesn't mean you can get on the air and use the
 frequencies for whatever you like.

 Would it be OK for NASA to use ham frequencies for their Mars Rover
 project, just because someone at NASA went out and got themself a ham
 ticket?  After all, the Mars Rover programme is undoubtedly educational,
 and also a technical investigation.


  I think the main issue is that these birds don't satisfy YOUR personal
 interest.  Just as ragchewing and dx-ing don't satisfy the schools
 exerimental goals.


 And neither should the schools assume that the amateur radio community
 automatically stands ready to satisfy THEIR needs, no matter what those
 needs are.


  So maybe helping them build a transponder would satisfy both.


 Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise.  In fact, maybe we
 should PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data
 pathways they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same time
 provides US with something that provides OUR needs.

 It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational
 opportunities.  The theory goes, as I understand it:  Since we can't afford
 to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational institutions
 (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable frequencies -- and
 potentially a global network of groundstations -- IN EXCHANGE for some sort
 of communications functionality that can be used BY US.

 Except it isn't happening.  One satellite after another, they get what we
 have to offer (bandwidth), and they offer us... NOTHING in return.


  But  then its not HEO so maybe just let the freqs die until funding
 is there for the appropriate use. By then thiae freqs will have long
 since been reallocated


 I used to enjoy working HEO, but I am not against LEO satellites, and have
 worked quite a few myself.  But low orbit or highly elliptical, the more
 people that end up using our frequencies for non-amateur purposes, the
 greater the case that is being made for the reallocation of those
 frequencies.


  Its beating a dead horse. That want HEO dx-ing and ragchewing are free
 to build one. You don't need AMSAT anywhere do do that.


 I thought that's exactly what AMSAT was created for.  The construction,
 launch, care and feeding of satellites for use by the community of amateur
 radio operators.  Guess not, eh?


  Channel your energy into such a constructive project. I seriously doubt
 the complaining will get anything done.


 Neither, apparently, will AMSAT.


 --
 73, de Gus 8P6SM
 The Easternmost Isle

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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread John Becker

At 02:47 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote in part:

BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership;  you 
can renew online at www.amsat.org...   ;-)   

not in my lifetime as long as the only thing I see is the FM sats.

By the way how is that program going to replace AO 40 ??


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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

Thanks Barry and Mark for posting this number, I know it's been published
in various Symposium Proceedings. I don't think some of the people who
regularly post here and bemoan the good old days realize how much the
launch cost really is or what the effort is to get that kind of money.  If
I ever win the PowerBall or Mega Millions, I'll cut AMSAT a check for the
launch, but until then.

John, AG9D

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Mark L. Hammond marklhamm...@gmail.comwrote:

 At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO
 for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke
 was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US
 dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money)

 So the number holds.

 Mark N8MH

 On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote:
  Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
  From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@
  Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
  Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch
 costs be
  for a P3E class satellite ?
 
  Regards
  Mark Spencer
  VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
  Mark:
 
  Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of
 launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the
 size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more
 like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has
 a more accurate figure than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what
 makes things prohibitively expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the
 cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of
 our past fund raising efforts.
 
  The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the
 money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for
 P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from
 individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other
 organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising
 efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were
 handling.   AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as
 part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch
 vehicle.  At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what
 might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America.
  Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of
 the current launch costs.Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur
 radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires
 both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO s!
  at!
   ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a Case for
 Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we
 have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these
 expectations.
 
  Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major
 inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself
 (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and
 whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with
 P3-D).
 
  So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what
 AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances:
 
  The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as
 AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we
 opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite
 for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances
 at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for
 a launch that would likely increase in cost of time.
 
  To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost
 to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO.  The
 current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg).
 The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in
 cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and
 others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as
 Tony, AA2TX  (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has
 evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification.
   This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in
 2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for
 ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches.  Clearly, it make
 much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft
 development rather than launches if we can get others to support our
 launch costs.
 
  BTW, Aviation Week  Space Technology Magazine had a series of
 articles in the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites:  Doing More with Less)
 which highlights this evolution, including cubesats,

[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread Mark L. Hammond

Actually, I hope folks understand and recall that AMSAT's mission and
vision statement was changed a few years ago.

http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/AboutAmsat/mission.php

So there isn't a program underway to replace AO-40.

That happened at an annual meeting and was voted on by paid members as
I recall.  Or maybe it was done by Board members elected by paid
members.   I honestly forget.

This list, obviously, remains open to members and non-members alike.
That too is a conscious decision by the organization.

Mark N8MH

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM, John Becker w0...@big-river.net wrote:
 At 02:47 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote in part:

BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership;  you 
can renew online at www.amsat.org...   ;-)

 not in my lifetime as long as the only thing I see is the FM sats.

 By the way how is that program going to replace AO 40 ??


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-- 
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread Trevor .

 Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community 
 to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires 
 both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO satellite 
 would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a 
 Case for Support that would attract major donors, 
 such as foundations.

Very well put Barry.

If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between 
them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects 
took just 30 days.

ArduSat - $106,330
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-in-space

KickSat - $74,587
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space

SkyCube - $116,890
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880837561/skycube-the-first-satellite-launched-by-you

None of the individuals involved in those projects has any  previous track 
record in building and launching satellites, yet lots of people were happy to 
back them with hard cash.

How is it people with no proven track record can so easily raise such sums of 
money ?

It's down to communications, they actively sought to engage with people and 
involve them in what they were doing. 

I think there's something we can learn here.

Across the world millions of people are keen on space and would love to be 
involved in a space project, even if it's just donating $25 to it - We need to 
reach out to them.

73 Trevor M5AKA


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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 04:22 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:

Well Gus, I'm guessing you read Barry's comments regarding launch cost.


I did, and the number is exactly what I previously thought it was.


So write the check and we'll be ready.


Believe you me, if I had the cash, I would do exactly that.


By the time $10M is raised, the cost will have tripled.


Well, that depends upon how fast it is raised.  How much have we raised 
so far?  In the nearly twelve years since the last HEO launch?



We are talking about hams, not sure how their wallets are where you are
but here in the states, if something is listed at 50 cents they'll try
and screw you down to 5.


Same here.  But we will still pay 10 grand for a rig if we really want 
to.  Isn't it the same where you live?  It's the bread and water 
principle.  You eat bread and water, and save up for what you want. 
Enough bread and water and you can afford anything!  :-)



So good luck raising that kind of cash in the  a reasonable amount of
time. Until a school or someone else needs a HEO  bird, the path is
pretty clear for now.


One way to make sure that you never raise the funds is to keep saying 
We can't afford it! and never save up.


I seem to have given the impression that I am against LEO birds.  I am 
not.  As it happens, I believe that HEO birds are better.  In that they 
generally offer more facilities for hams generally, and my selfish, 
ragchewing, DX-chasing butt in particular.  Where I live, LEO satellites 
mostly give me an opportunity to make contact with fish, swimming in the 
mid Atlantic.  So yes, I have a preference for HEO satellites.


But I'm not against LEO birds per se.  I AM against any satellite, HEO 
or LEO, that uses our frequencies as a free alternative to the Space 
Research Band and GIVE NOTHING BACK IN RETURN.  Neither a functioning 
transponder that hams can use, nor a financial donation towards the 
launch of a bird of our own.  Not even, in most cases, research of 
particular interest to the broader ham community.


As for paying for an HEO launch, I can't afford to cough up that much. 
I can't even afford to cough up 1% of the required sum towards a launch 
fund.  Even 0.1% would be a financial strain, but it might be doable. 
As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to 
contribute to.


--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 04:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:


Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise.  In fact, maybe we
should PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data
pathways they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same
time provides US with something that provides OUR needs.

It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational
opportunities.  The theory goes, as I understand it:  Since we can't
afford to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational
institutions (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable
frequencies -- and potentially a global network of groundstations --
IN EXCHANGE for some sort of communications functionality that can be
used BY US.



We could even call it AMSAT Fox! And take donations on the front page
of the website via PayPal! And use the same avionics on projects with
other entities, and apply for free educational launches!


Excellent idea!  When do we start?  Because it seems there are a LOT of 
birds up there that DON'T actually give anything back.  What ratio of 
satellites that DON'T to satellites that DO must we reach, before 
someone points out that it is in fact, no longer our band?


More seriously:  I see the FOX PayPal applet saying a little under $7.5k 
at the present.  How long has it taken to raise that amount?  How much 
do we actually need?  Or to get to the crux of the matter, at the 
current rate, when will we hit the required target, in comparison to 
when we need to pay for the launch?


--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

On 09/24/2012 03:47 PM, Barry Baines wrote:

Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
From: Mark Spencermspencer12345@
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca; 
s=s1024;t=1348432005; 
bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKuTO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE=
Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be
for a P3E class satellite ?

Regards
Mark Spencer
VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
Mark:

Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a 
satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of 
Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more like $10 million, 
though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure 
than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively 
expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) 
is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts.

The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA 
totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual 
donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also 
had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. 
  AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the 
frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle.  At that time, we believe we had pretty much 
maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America.  
Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.
Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so 
requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO sa

t!

  ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a Case for 
Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we have not 
been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.

Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and 
not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs 
real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such 
as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D).

So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be 
able to afford under current circumstances:

The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 
2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as 
replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the 
concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time.

To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to 
place a cubesat in LEO.  The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of 
launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for 
example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX  
(AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard 
spacecraft specification.   This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were 
selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford 
launches.  Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than 
launches if we can get others to support our launch costs.

BTW, Aviation Week  Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in the 30 JUL 
12 issue (Small Satellites:  Doing More with Less) which highlights this evolution, 
including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS 
using the same deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese 
student  F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.   Information about TechEdSat may be found here:  
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html

Coupled with the launch costs is the

[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread Bob- W7LRD

What if we convince a consortium of educational institutions they need a HEO. 
Do educational institutions have to pay the going rate? 
73 Bob W7LRD 

- Original Message -
From: Trevor . m5...@yahoo.co.uk 
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org 
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:18:29 PM 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 
312) 

 Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community 
 to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires 
 both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO satellite 
 would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a 
 Case for Support that would attract major donors, 
 such as foundations. 

Very well put Barry. 

If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between 
them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects 
took just 30 days. 

ArduSat - $106,330 
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-in-space

KickSat - $74,587 
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space

SkyCube - $116,890 
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880837561/skycube-the-first-satellite-launched-by-you

None of the individuals involved in those projects has any previous track 
record in building and launching satellites, yet lots of people were happy to 
back them with hard cash. 

How is it people with no proven track record can so easily raise such sums of 
money ? 

It's down to communications, they actively sought to engage with people and 
involve them in what they were doing. 

I think there's something we can learn here. 

Across the world millions of people are keen on space and would love to be 
involved in a space project, even if it's just donating $25 to it - We need to 
reach out to them. 

73 Trevor M5AKA 

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[amsat-bb] I have the answer!

2012-09-24 Thread K4FEG

AMSAT needs to form a union, overpay it's employees, then the leadership 
can tell the US government that if we don't get a massive infusion of 
taxpayer dollars that AMSAT will have to file for bankruptcy, therefore 
putting all of those high paid union employees out of a job, and as a 
side bar we can tell them that we are doing solar panel research as well.


Hell with the way this president likes to throw money away, I figure 
we'll have over $500,000,000.00 by election day(isn't that what they 
gave that solar cell company a few months ago?)


You boy's at HQ gotta think outside the box! we could put transponder on 
the moon with that kinda cash!


I think I'll go listen to some telemetry to soothe my jangled nerves!

See how easy that was to solve!
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat



someone points out that it is in fact, no longer our band?


70cm is a shared band, and is where the bulk of the cubes go. Amateur radio is 
a secondary user. Were the satellites (at least from the US) to apply for a 
part 5 experimental license, they could and would use the exact same 
frequencies. In fact, it's happened already. It's a moot point about our band 
vs. their band. We need to adapt or perish, as plain as that.


More seriously:  I see the FOX PayPal applet saying a little under $7.5k 
at the present.  How long has it taken to raise that amount?  

That portion of the funding dates from about when ARISSat reentered in January, 
and we switched widgets to the current Fox one. More was raised from direct 
mailings to members.

How much 
do we actually need?  Or to get to the crux of the matter, at the 
current rate, when will we hit the required target, in comparison to 
when we need to pay for the launch?

We have a subsidized launch already courtesy of NASA's ELANA program, because 
of the educational aspect. Current estimate is late 2013, details to be 
determined. Other flight opportunities for additional spacecraft are pending. 
The funds being raised now go towards construction and other costs. See 
http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/fox/ for more info.

All of this is regularly updated in letters and the Journal that go to current 
paid members, as well as ANS and on the website.

73, Drew KO4MA


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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

 
As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to 
contribute to.

Incorrect. 

http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.php/spendendonations-topmenu-125

I've given to AMSAT-NA, -DL, and -UK, and am members of -NA and -UK. I'd be a 
member of -DL, but my wife gets tired of me asking what this and that means in 
Deutsch.

73, Drew KO4MA


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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)


On 09/24/2012 05:18 PM, Trevor . wrote:

If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that
between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising
by the projects took just 30 days.


Pity we can't obtain funding by the same means.  It isn't as if we 
wouldn't be able to include most of the functionality provided by these 
satellites as part of a secondary payload.


--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat


On 09/24/2012 08:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:

As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to
contribute to.


Incorrect.

http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.php/spendendonations-topmenu-125

I've given to AMSAT-NA, -DL, and -UK, and am members of -NA and -UK. I'd
be a member of -DL, but my wife gets tired of me asking what this and
that means in Deutsch.

73, Drew KO4MA


I will admit, I was speaking about AMSAT-NA specifically, but failed to 
say so.  I have also hesitated to join AMSAT-DL simply because I can't 
understand the language.  I've previously been a member of AMSAT-NA and 
AMSAT-UK.


I am not averse to rejoining AMSAT-NA (because NA is closer to me than 
UK) but frankly, I am not convinced that the policies being followed 
will result in more/better/any satellites that I can actually use.  As 
has been pointed out here very recently, the new AMSAT-NA mission 
statement does not even mention the word communications.


--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread B J

On 9/24/12, Bob- W7LRD w7...@comcast.net wrote:
 What if we convince a consortium of educational institutions they need a
 HEO. Do educational institutions have to pay the going rate?

snip

If my alma mater is an indication, it might be a waste of time trying
to convince a lot of educational institutions to put anything into
orbit, let alone an amateur radio satellite.

Several years ago, I attended an alumni function hosted by the
department where I studied for my last 2 degrees (a master's in
electrical engineering and a Ph. D. in electrical and computer
engineering).  I asked the chairman at the time why there was no
interest in amateur radio in the department, figuring that it has
covers many of the topics taught by the professors there plus it's a
fun activity in which the students could use the technical knowledge
that they learned.

His answer was along the lines of no interest or not popular.  In
other words, amateur radio doesn't bring in large research grants and
corresponding bragging rights which the department could use against
its competitors at other universities.  Since it doesn't have the same
pizzazz as, say, nanotechnology or wearable computers, why bother?
Besides, isn't amateur radio obsolete technology?  (Of course, it
didn't surprise me that he didn't know what D-STAR was.)

However, I'd bet if a leading university would get involved in
amateur radio satellites, a lot of engineering and physics departments
would be falling all over themselves trying to get one into orbit.

Meanwhile, my alma mater wonders why it's been years since I donated
any money

73s

Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread Jim Jerzycke


That would be the cost to fly as a secondary payload.

The bulk of the launch cost is paid by the primary payload, and that 
currently runs anywhere from 90 million to 130 million, depending on 
payload weight and desired orbit.


73, Jim  KQ6EA


On 09/24/2012 08:04 PM, Mark L. Hammond wrote:

At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO
for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke
was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US
dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money)

So the number holds.

Mark N8MH

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote:

Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be
for a P3E class satellite ?

Regards
Mark Spencer
VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
Mark:

Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a 
satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of 
Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more like $10 million, 
though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure 
than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively 
expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) 
is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts.

The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA 
totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual 
donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also 
had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. 
  AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the 
frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle.  At that time, we believe we had pretty much 
maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America.  
Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.
Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so 
requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO !

s!

  at!

  ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a Case for 
Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we have not 
been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.

Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and 
not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs 
real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such 
as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D).

So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be 
able to afford under current circumstances:

The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 
2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as 
replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the 
concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time.

To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to 
place a cubesat in LEO.  The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of 
launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for 
example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX  
(AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard 
spacecraft specification.   This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were 
selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford 
launches.  Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than 
launches if we can get others to support our launch costs.

BTW, Aviation Week  Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in the 30 JUL 
12 issue (Small Satellites:  Doing More with Less) which highlights this evolution, 
including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS 
using the same deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese 
student  F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.

[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)

2012-09-24 Thread R Oler


If AMSAT were given a near free launch by SpaceX or any of the other new 
rocket folks there is nothing to put on the bird.  

The Dragon launching to the space station Oct 7th is only carring 1000 pounds 
there is a lot of excess lift capability...nothing to put on it

Robert WB5MZO

 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:36:44 -0400
 From: 8p...@anjo.com
 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 
 312)
 
 On 09/24/2012 03:47 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
  Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
  From: Mark Spencermspencer12345@
  Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
  DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca; 
  s=s1024;t=1348432005; 
  bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKuTO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE=
  Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs 
  be
  for a P3E class satellite ?
 
  Regards
  Mark Spencer
  VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
  Mark:
 
  Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a 
  satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of 
  Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more like $10 million, 
  though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate 
  figure than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things 
  prohibitively expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the 
  spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past 
  fund raising efforts.
 
  The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the money 
  that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, 
  from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, 
  ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other organizations, such as 
  AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in 
  support of those aspects of the program that they were handling.   AMSAT 
  also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program 
  that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle.  At that 
  time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from 
  within the amateur radio community in North America.  Unfortunately, that 
  considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch 
  costs.Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to 
  raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur 
  radio vision to what a HEO!
  sa
 t!
ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a Case for 
  Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we 
  have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these 
  expectations.
 
  Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major 
  inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself 
  (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and 
  whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with 
  P3-D).
 
  So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what 
  AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances:
 
  The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as 
  AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we 
  opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite 
  for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances 
  at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for 
  a launch that would likely increase in cost of time.
 
  To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost to 
  launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO.  The 
  current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). 
  The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in 
  cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and 
  others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as 
  Tony, AA2TX  (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has 
  evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. 
This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 
  2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for 
  ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches.  Clearly, it make 
  much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft 
  development rather than launches if we can get others to support our

[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat

I like going round and round in circles as much as the next guy. Now we
seem to be getting to the crux of the issue. Perhaps it's just the feeling
I get from reading the messages, predominantly from those across the pond
from the USA. It seems that the bashing and complaining is mostly directed
at AMSAT-NA as if everyone expects the US version of AMSAT to fund, build
and launch everything. There is AMSAT-UK, -DL, -Italia, - India, - South
Africa, -China (CAMSAT) and Brazil. I'm sure I missed a few. So rather than
expect -NA to do it all perhaps those AMSAT organizations not held under
the thumb of ITAR ( or maybe that are too ) should band together, like the
international partners of the ISS have and build one giant bird for all of
us.

John, AG9D

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote:

On 09/24/2012 08:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:

As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to
contribute to.

Incorrect.

http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.**php/spendendonations-topmenu-**125http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.php/spendendonations-topmenu-125

I've given to AMSAT-NA, -DL, and -UK, and am members of -NA and -UK. I'd
be a member of -DL, but my wife gets tired of me asking what this and
that means in Deutsch.

73, Drew KO4MA

I will admit, I was speaking about AMSAT-NA specifically, but failed to
say so. I have also hesitated to join AMSAT-DL simply because I can't
understand the language. I've previously been a member of AMSAT-NA and
AMSAT-UK.

I am not averse to rejoining AMSAT-NA (because NA is closer to me than UK)
but frankly, I am not convinced that the policies being followed will
result in more/better/any satellites that I can actually use. As has been
pointed out here very recently, the new AMSAT-NA mission statement does not
even mention the word communications.

--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
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[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)