[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/26/2012 10:06 AM, Trevor . wrote: Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153 This 404'd. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Typo, should have read http://www.uk.amsat.org/?p=5153 73 Trevor M5AKA --- On Thu, 27/9/12, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote: Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153 This 404'd. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Are we pursing the Dragon lab option? Robert WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:42:43 -0400 From: glasbren...@mindspring.com To: orbit...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Specific question. Has AMSAT approached SpaceX for a good cause launch? RGO WB5MZO Yes. We went to them, and they came to us to talk about DragonLab. Keep in mind both ARISSat and now Fox have had good cause launches provided, but strictly due to the educational component. 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Dan. thanks for the reply (we will see how long my comments leak through to the BB...I expect the filters to start any moment now) What I am suggesting is that AMSAT needs to think outside the box in terms of justifying satellites. I dont know that public service will or wont sell...but for instance (and I am just musing this) Maybe we can get some traction on ISS by figure out a way to use an amateur radio payload as a proof of operation for Dextre? there is some use planned for Dextre in the December (at least notationally now) flight of a Dragon (ie CRS 2). Finally while I think personal histories are great; there needs to be something more then that; there has to be some reason that advances the cause of the launch provider to get the sizzle that pony up a free launch. I agree that a launch campaign is not free space on a tower, but the point is that we could not have afforded the space on the three towers we are on (for various devices) had we not gotten them for 10 dollars and a shake ...and to do that we had to come up with a package that got the people who owned the tower interested in what we did. We did that and I suspect if AMSAT starts looking outside of the education box they will find one as well. Meanwhile Oscar 7 keeps on chugging RGO WB5MZO Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:05:26 -0400 From: n8...@usa.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) ...if here in Houston we had to pay rent for our tower space (and we have a couple of them) then the group that I am a part of which has a pretty nice repeater/packet system would simply be out of luck. What we were able to do is convince the folks who usually take the large dollars to view us as a public service and we get the tower space (and the everything else space including Electricity) for 10 dollars a year. While AMSAT and other groups might or not compete with paying payloads have we lost the ability to go out and convince people that AMSAT is a worthy cause? Amsat has tried to sell the emergency and disaster communications aspect of amateur radio but so far nobody has bitten on that bait. Getting space on a tower is a few thousand dollars per year, getting a free satellite launch represents a thousand times more money. A local ham club working with local public safety officials can show them directly how valuable hams can be, on the national level we are trying to appeal to a big bureaucracy with little practical experience. Most of the rest of the world regards ham radio as an outmoded hobby practiced by elderly white males. It has been said before in this forum that nobody is going to donate money so that hams can talk to Japan through an amateur satellite. Amsat is not the only worthy non-profit in space these days. We compete with many other amateur space groups, including the Google Lunar X prize teams. Education is what brings in the big bucks today. The grant makers have fully swallowed the phony notion that there is a critical shortage of engineers and scientists, and they donate to causes that support STEM education. Our ability to access space in the future depends on how well we work with the education community. We need to stress that a real engineering design course must include designing for reliability and a long lived communications mission. Amsat has a long and proud history of (mostly) successful satellites, which gives us credibility in the field, if we don't allow others to rewrite history and claim credit for things that we did first. There is always an exception to every rule however, and if we ever find a launch provider who thinks that amateur radio in space is a worthy cause, we will be prepared to jump on it. It all depends on building personal relationships with persons who are in a position to say yes, and as you know, hams come from all walks of life, including corporate executives, military officers and scientists. Dan Schultz N8FGV ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Bob General or specific rants are OK. Look I go to FAA meetings every six months to hang on to my DPE certification and after a bit unless the presenter is very good...you cover the same thing over and over after two decades of doing this. I just dont agree with much of what you are saying. There is upmass that is at least not taken by operating payloads. OSC is going to use a mass simulator for their Antares launch, there has not been a Falcon9 that has flown anywhere near full payload mass, the next one on October 7 or there abouts wont do it...there is likely to be a Falcon heavy less then full launch at some point in the next 2-5 years... http://www.spaceflightservices.com/MHome.php these people are going to try a business on the notion of carrying secondary payloads on the Falcon9...there is a basic bus associated with them...when the bus is done is it possible that there is room to put an amateur payload on that? there are places on the Falcon9 second stage for small payloads...what was the payload that flew on an Ariane second stage and stayed attached to it? IDEFIX or something like that... I've never quite gotten an answer as to why we are not trying to get a linear transponder attached permanently to ISS? Since the Russians ran the last satellite as a sort of ISS payload for a bit its clear that there is some room there to at least try that. Or maybe not; the last satellite from ISS seemed to toast a lot of bridges so maybe those options are gone. Andrew raised Dragon lab...if we can get a payload on Dragonlab that strikes me as a good door opener with SpaceX... Now would any of these organizations dole out 5-10-100 lbs of payload for an amateur radio satellite? I dont know and maybe everyone at AMSat is asking as hard as they can and getting the door slammed in their faces...but that is a different story then there is no launches' Whats the approach to take with these people? AMSAT is big in the educational mode and maybe that is the only pony that the organization has, but maybe there are other approaches that would be more productive. When the group I am a part of wanted to move our repeater/beacon complex from a members tower in Clear Lake to something better we got a lot of no's until we got some yes's but we didnt use education at all. We used emergency communications (which payed off when the hurricane came FEMA started using our repeater system), public service and a few other things and finally made it through the door. For it we got 300 feet or tower height, a rack space and emergency power. When the time came the folks there even gave us hardline... Since you brought up politics...all I know is that trying the same thing over and over usually ensures getting the same results. I dont think we are going to see an AO-10,13 or 40 again because of the propulsion issue. I doubt any group is going to let a pyalod on with a motor unless there are real rocket scientist doing the job...the record has not been all that sterling. As for going to the null file...gee I am a life member of Amsat and well I am surprised that these post are showing up on the board... Robert WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:59:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) From: rwmcgw...@gmail.com To: orbit...@hotmail.com CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Robert: You are going to be used for my generic rant, it's not personal. I can get away with this because I have no official role. AMSAT here and elsewhere has NO desire to become just another customer for exactly the reasons you describe. It amazes me that anyone thinks we don't know this. There is a reason for Cubesat work. It's about the only free ride available. Here in the USA, we have NASA ELaNa and there are similar programs elsewhere as essentially our only access to space. The Chinese amateur space groups are doing larger spacecraft but they have direct government support as they try to build a spacefaring cadre of engineers and scientists. In the early days/years of AMSAT we could talk NASA or ESA folks into letting us on board. Now, there are no ESA test rides and Arianespace is a corporation, desirous of making a profit, and giving away rides doesn't contribute to their task of helping the bottom line. People seem to think that AMSAT-anywhere have gotten lazy, stupid, old, whatever. It is not true. We can build tiny sat's or micro sat's and get them up with only cubesats being relatively easy. I've seen a few of our older supporters tell folks where to send their donations and support.. This reminds me of being told things by politicians these days.. Promise much, deliver nothing,,, How has that worked out for folks? If ANYONE has a known likely way to space for a significant amateur transponder only mission, I dare say you will get trampled by AMSAT-anywhere to get to the provider. In general, suggestions like why don't you
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Drew...I didnt see any prices for Dragon lab, all I got was a link to a SpaceReview article which is of course a great site but public. have a great day thanks for the time, I know you are busy...RGO WB5MZO CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org From: glasbren...@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:17:00 -0400 To: orbit...@hotmail.com They weren't offering a free launch on Dragonlab. See my previous post about pricing. This is about as much as I'm going to say on the topic at this point. If you have a real, hard lead, please share it with me or another director or officer privately. 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone On Sep 25, 2012, at 7:52 PM, R Oler orbit...@hotmail.com wrote: Are we pursing the Dragon lab option? Robert WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:42:43 -0400 From: glasbren...@mindspring.com To: orbit...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Specific question. Has AMSAT approached SpaceX for a good cause launch? RGO WB5MZO Yes. We went to them, and they came to us to talk about DragonLab. Keep in mind both ARISSat and now Fox have had good cause launches provided, but strictly due to the educational component. 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Hi, Since Sept 2009 (when I subscribed to the list) - this thread is most interesting! I have great opportunity to help small educational team which is building 1U cubesat. And I have to agree 200% with Tony that there is great potential for ham community in finding space related educational teams in their countries and help them succeed in their missions. 73 Zilvis On 2012.09.26 08:38, Tony Langdon wrote: I see a lot more potential in partnering with the education community. They're seeking to train aerospace engineers, and perhaps working with this community - as mentors, given there's a lot of proven satellite expertise in AMSAT, as well as clients (to have students building to a specification). Amateur radio itself is about learning - usually self learning, but education would seem to broadly fall in the learning side of the hobby. Sharing that with industry and getting working transponders in return would seem like a win-win. I do think it should be a two way street, AMSAT helps the students and universities achieve their educational goals, and gets a working bird in return, once the primary mission is completed. From what was posted about Fox earlier, that sounds like a good example of this sort of thing. And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things. However, I also understand that times have changed, and I may never get the opportunity to try working a HEO in my lifetime. I'm not going to bag AMSAT for that, it's just the way the industry has gone, and the old launch opportunities have dried up. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/26/2012 01:38 AM, Tony Langdon wrote: And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things. One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way? What about a trebuchet? Springs? Rubber bands? Cylinders of compressed gas? Gas produced when needed by mixing two stable chemicals together? A motor that spins up an arm to 'throw' the payload? A magnetic railgun that fires a slug down out of orbit, resulting in recoil pushing the satellite up? Or the payload up, while deorbiting the railgun? Surely someone smarter than I can come up with a scheme that might actually work? And someone with a smoother tongue than I can persuade a university that this is valuable research to be pursued by their space science department? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
We don't need anything so fancy as springs or rubber bands. Electric propulsion is a mature, safe technology, with many universities and organizations developing experimental thrusters that need to be tested in space. Some of them even use solid propellant so no need to do safety qualification on a high pressure gas cylinder. Nothing at all to explode. That is how we will get our next HEO satellite. Dan Schultz N8FGV -- Original Message -- And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things. One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way? What about a trebuchet? Springs? Rubber bands? Cylinders of compressed gas? Gas produced when needed by mixing two stable chemicals together? A motor that spins up an arm to 'throw' the payload? A magnetic railgun that fires a slug down out of orbit, resulting in recoil pushing the satellite up? Or the payload up, while deorbiting the railgun? Surely someone smarter than I can come up with a scheme that might actually work? And someone with a smoother tongue than I can persuade a university that this is valuable research to be pursued by their space science department? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
At 06:04 PM 9/26/2012, Gus 8P6SM wrote: On 09/26/2012 01:38 AM, Tony Langdon wrote: And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things. One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way? These days, definitely not, there's a number of different propulsion ideas being researched, and many of them don't involve explosive chemicals. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
--- On Wed, 26/9/12, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote: One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way? Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153 There are several groups currently developing CubeSats with some form of propulsion. 73 Trevor M5AKA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
I don't know why everyone thinks it is so expensive to send something to space. Here is a video of a couple of guys that sent some Natural Light beer into space with a weather balloon. Why can't we just get together with these guys and send up a satellite? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_00eZtsuJ9M Note: Before I get my inbox filled up with Yer an idiot! There's more to it than that!!! please understand that I know fully well that there is just a bit more to it to get a satellite into orbit than what the guys do in this video. It is still a well-produced video of about the last thing I'd think of to send up on a balloon. Steve, W5IEM *This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the email along with any and all attachments from your system* ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
cool Steve hic cool!! 73 Bob W7LRD - Original Message - From: Steve May steve.w5...@gmail.com To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 1:37:03 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) I don't know why everyone thinks it is so expensive to send something to space. Here is a video of a couple of guys that sent some Natural Light beer into space with a weather balloon. Why can't we just get together with these guys and send up a satellite? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_00eZtsuJ9M Note: Before I get my inbox filled up with Yer an idiot! There's more to it than that!!! please understand that I know fully well that there is just a bit more to it to get a satellite into orbit than what the guys do in this video. It is still a well-produced video of about the last thing I'd think of to send up on a balloon. Steve, W5IEM *This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the email along with any and all attachments from your system* ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
--- On Tue, 25/9/12, Daniel Schultz n8...@usa.net wrote: According to Google there are 33 teams vying for the Google Lunar X Prize. Where are these groups getting the money for their launch to the moon? I'm not aware that any of the groups yet has the money to buy all the launches each team will require. Like many amateur space projects they are relying on funds being raised as the project progresses. From what I've seen a number of groups are aiming for a CubeSat launch into Low-Earth-Orbit and then plan to use some form of propulsion, ion etc to get their CubeSat spacecraft to the Moon. Given the fact that such CubeSat propulsion systems are currently unproven in space this means X-Prize Teams will end up flying one or more likely two test CubeSats first to prove their designs. So assuming the propulsion designs work there could be some test CubeSats ending up in quite nice orbits. What if we offer to provide the communications system for one of these lunar missions. Provide one transponder/telemetry/command system for the lunar vehicle and build another one to drop off in HEO I gather there are already radio amateurs working with some of the teams and it's certainly a good idea for amateurs to get involved in such projects. 73 Trevor M5AKA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
--- On Tue, 25/9/12, Gus 8P6SM 8p...@anjo.com wrote: If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects took just 30 days. Pity we can't obtain funding by the same means. It isn't as if we wouldn't be able to include most of the functionality provided by these satellites as part of asecondary payload. Hi Gus, Yes, I think by reaching out to people we can raise significant extra funds. As you imply it's just a matter of designing a CubeSat that has an amateur radio communications transponder, which we all want, and also has room for other functionality that people outside the amateur community would be prepared to sponsor. In fact I thought the AMSAT Fox project will do exactly that. In an earlier post you wrote: Would it be OK for NASA to use ham frequencies for their Mars Rover project, Yes, that is exactly what has happened, ham frequencies are being used on Mars. See 437 MHz - Curiosity - Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter Frequencies http://www.southgatearc.org/news/august2012/mars_reconnaissance_orbiter_frequencies.htm There are no global Primary Amateur or Amateur-satellite Service allocations above 146 MHz until you get to 24 GHz. Sadly we don't own the 435 MHz band. 73 Trevor M5AKA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Drew. If AMSAT becomes or has become just another customer of launchers then you are probably correct and even more so the future for realsats ie ones that actually do communications is bleak. I am sort of surprised that this is the thought ...if here in Houston we had to pay rent for our tower space (and we have a couple of them) then the group that I am a part of which has a pretty nice repeater/packet system would simply be out of luck. What we were able to do is convince the folks who usually take the large dollars to view us as a public service and we get the tower space (and the everything else space including Electricity) for 10 dollars a year. My boss routinely sends his Gulfstream fleet out to do things for which people pay nothing or little because he gives to good causes. While AMSAT and other groups might or not compete with paying payloads have we lost the ability to go out and convince people that AMSAT is a worthy cause? Specific question. Has AMSAT approached SpaceX for a good cause launch? RGO WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:47:28 -0400 From: glasbren...@mindspring.com To: orbit...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org I'll just leave this here, to prove the reality of the situation: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1913/1 Doud said that SpaceX recently completed an internal study on the feasibility of flying secondary payloads. That effort also developed prices for flying those secondary payloads, which he disclosed in his presentation. A P-POD would cost between $200,000 and $325,000 for missions to LEO, or $350,000 to $575,000 for missions to geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO). An ESPA-class satellite weighing up to 180 kilograms would cost $4–5 million for LEO missions and $7–9 million for GTO missions, he said. 73, Drew KO4MA - Drew..No it is not a false premise. .if SpaceX is flying with not used mass we should at least approach them to be able to see if we could put payloads on the vehicle..or take something to ISS...there is mass and space, the launch on Oct 7 will only carry 1000 lbs. Also we might be able to find some space on the Falcon heavy launch. Robert WB5MZO ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Robert: You are going to be used for my generic rant, it's not personal. I can get away with this because I have no official role. AMSAT here and elsewhere has NO desire to become just another customer for exactly the reasons you describe. It amazes me that anyone thinks we don't know this. There is a reason for Cubesat work. It's about the only free ride available. Here in the USA, we have NASA ELaNa and there are similar programs elsewhere as essentially our only access to space. The Chinese amateur space groups are doing larger spacecraft but they have direct government support as they try to build a spacefaring cadre of engineers and scientists. In the early days/years of AMSAT we could talk NASA or ESA folks into letting us on board. Now, there are no ESA test rides and Arianespace is a corporation, desirous of making a profit, and giving away rides doesn't contribute to their task of helping the bottom line. People seem to think that AMSAT-anywhere have gotten lazy, stupid, old, whatever. It is not true. We can build tiny sat's or micro sat's and get them up with only cubesats being relatively easy. I've seen a few of our older supporters tell folks where to send their donations and support.. This reminds me of being told things by politicians these days.. Promise much, deliver nothing,,, How has that worked out for folks? If ANYONE has a known likely way to space for a significant amateur transponder only mission, I dare say you will get trampled by AMSAT-anywhere to get to the provider. In general, suggestions like why don't you folks or I think you folks should go directly to the null file because they consume AMSAT archive storage and only increase its noise floor and they are known to the utter novices working directly with AMSAT-Anywhere. Bob On Tuesday, September 25, 2012, R Oler wrote: Drew. If AMSAT becomes or has become just another customer of launchers then you are probably correct and even more so the future for realsats ie ones that actually do communications is bleak. I am sort of surprised that this is the thought ...if here in Houston we had to pay rent for our tower space (and we have a couple of them) then the group that I am a part of which has a pretty nice repeater/packet system would simply be out of luck. What we were able to do is convince the folks who usually take the large dollars to view us as a public service and we get the tower space (and the everything else space including Electricity) for 10 dollars a year. My boss routinely sends his Gulfstream fleet out to do things for which people pay nothing or little because he gives to good causes. While AMSAT and other groups might or not compete with paying payloads have we lost the ability to go out and convince people that AMSAT is a worthy cause? Specific question. Has AMSAT approached SpaceX for a good cause launch? RGO WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:47:28 -0400 From: glasbren...@mindspring.com javascript:; To: orbit...@hotmail.com javascript:; Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org javascript:; I'll just leave this here, to prove the reality of the situation: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1913/1 Doud said that SpaceX recently completed an internal study on the feasibility of flying secondary payloads. That effort also developed prices for flying those secondary payloads, which he disclosed in his presentation. A P-POD would cost between $200,000 and $325,000 for missions to LEO, or $350,000 to $575,000 for missions to geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO). An ESPA-class satellite weighing up to 180 kilograms would cost $4–5 million for LEO missions and $7–9 million for GTO missions, he said. 73, Drew KO4MA - Drew..No it is not a false premise. .if SpaceX is flying with not used mass we should at least approach them to be able to see if we could put payloads on the vehicle..or take something to ISS...there is mass and space, the launch on Oct 7 will only carry 1000 lbs. Also we might be able to find some space on the Falcon heavy launch. Robert WB5MZO ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org javascript:;. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb -- Bob McGwier Owner and Technical Director, Allied Communication, LLC Facebook: N4HYBob ARS: N4HY ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Specific question. Has AMSAT approached SpaceX for a good cause launch? RGO WB5MZO Yes. We went to them, and they came to us to talk about DragonLab. Keep in mind both ARISSat and now Fox have had good cause launches provided, but strictly due to the educational component. 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
At 10:06 AM 9/25/2012, Bill W1PA wrote: Based on the economics, those of us with aspirations of having a HEO in the near future might be better off upgrading our set-ups for the high-reliability _passive_ HEO that is available (aka EME). With absolutely no intent at sarcasm, any pointers to articles on how to take a HEO-class station up to EME-capable? Are small station-small station QSO's possible on EME, or does at least one station have to look like W5UN or Arecibo? (ok, maybe a little sarcasm) Bill W1PA (sitting on some collapsible C-band dishes) ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb Bill, I will break my current policy of not contributing info to amsat-bb and answer this one -- as I am one former HEO user that migrated to eme. In truth that began before the launch of AO-40. I copied my first eme signal in the fall of 1997 from a large eme station running CW. I used half of my 20T cushcraft 2m satellite antenna (the vertical half) and my ARR preamp. In 1998-99 I began building my eme station: http://www.kl7uw.com/eme144.htm I started with two M2 XP20 (ten-element yagi), an ARR P144VDG preamp and a 120w motorola repeater PA to work W5UN and KB8RQ on CW. This grew to my current four XP20 with polarity switching and better preamps plus 1300w PA (8877). Any one that still has an AO-40 class 2m antenna (at least 10-element and 13 dBi gain) with a good 2m preamp and at least 150w amplifier can become an entry-level 2m-eme station. You still probably will not be able to contact a similar equipped station but there are many stations like mine that you can work. Az-el tracking helps but not absolutely necessary. This is possible with smaller stations due to the digital sw called JT65. JT65 enables detection of signals 10-dB weaker than CW can be copied. The old standard station for CW eme was four ten-element yagis and 600w output (typ what one got from a pair of 4CX250's under the old 1000w maximum dc input regulation). One yagi is 6-dB less than four and 150w is 6-dB less than 600w, totaling a drop of 12-dB. With two 13-dBi yagis and 400-600w one can work stations of the same size (though it may be difficult at times). JT65 is available FREE and downloaded from: http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/ click the link to WSJT and download WSJT9.3 Those that are serious about trying eme should consider subscribing to the MoonNet e-mail reflector where one can find plenty of help getting started: http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html The above suggestion is provided to those stations that miss HEO sats and desire more technical challenge than they experience with FM LEO (orbiting repeaters). I will reply directly to inquiries or questions but will not post further on amsat-bb. 73, Ed - KL7UW 600m - 3cm EME: 50/144/432/1296/3400 http://www.kl7uw.com/ ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
They weren't offering a free launch on Dragonlab. See my previous post about pricing. This is about as much as I'm going to say on the topic at this point. If you have a real, hard lead, please share it with me or another director or officer privately. 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone On Sep 25, 2012, at 7:52 PM, R Oler orbit...@hotmail.com wrote: Are we pursing the Dragon lab option? Robert WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:42:43 -0400 From: glasbren...@mindspring.com To: orbit...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Specific question. Has AMSAT approached SpaceX for a good cause launch? RGO WB5MZO Yes. We went to them, and they came to us to talk about DragonLab. Keep in mind both ARISSat and now Fox have had good cause launches provided, but strictly due to the educational component. 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
...if here in Houston we had to pay rent for our tower space (and we have a couple of them) then the group that I am a part of which has a pretty nice repeater/packet system would simply be out of luck. What we were able to do is convince the folks who usually take the large dollars to view us as a public service and we get the tower space (and the everything else space including Electricity) for 10 dollars a year. While AMSAT and other groups might or not compete with paying payloads have we lost the ability to go out and convince people that AMSAT is a worthy cause? Amsat has tried to sell the emergency and disaster communications aspect of amateur radio but so far nobody has bitten on that bait. Getting space on a tower is a few thousand dollars per year, getting a free satellite launch represents a thousand times more money. A local ham club working with local public safety officials can show them directly how valuable hams can be, on the national level we are trying to appeal to a big bureaucracy with little practical experience. Most of the rest of the world regards ham radio as an outmoded hobby practiced by elderly white males. It has been said before in this forum that nobody is going to donate money so that hams can talk to Japan through an amateur satellite. Amsat is not the only worthy non-profit in space these days. We compete with many other amateur space groups, including the Google Lunar X prize teams. Education is what brings in the big bucks today. The grant makers have fully swallowed the phony notion that there is a critical shortage of engineers and scientists, and they donate to causes that support STEM education. Our ability to access space in the future depends on how well we work with the education community. We need to stress that a real engineering design course must include designing for reliability and a long lived communications mission. Amsat has a long and proud history of (mostly) successful satellites, which gives us credibility in the field, if we don't allow others to rewrite history and claim credit for things that we did first. There is always an exception to every rule however, and if we ever find a launch provider who thinks that amateur radio in space is a worthy cause, we will be prepared to jump on it. It all depends on building personal relationships with persons who are in a position to say yes, and as you know, hams come from all walks of life, including corporate executives, military officers and scientists. Dan Schultz N8FGV ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
At 02:05 PM 9/26/2012, Daniel Schultz wrote: Amsat has tried to sell the emergency and disaster communications aspect of amateur radio but so far nobody has bitten on that bait. Getting space on a tower is a few thousand dollars per year, getting a free satellite launch represents a thousand times more money. A local ham club working with local public safety officials can show them directly how valuable hams can be, on the national level we are trying to appeal to a big bureaucracy with little practical experience. Most of the rest of the world regards ham radio as an outmoded hobby practiced by elderly white males. It has been said before in this forum that nobody is going to donate money so that hams can talk to Japan through an amateur satellite. Amsat is not the only worthy non-profit in space these days. We compete with many other amateur space groups, including the Google Lunar X prize teams. Education is what brings in the big bucks today. The grant makers have fully swallowed the phony notion that there is a critical shortage of engineers and scientists, and they donate to causes that support STEM education. Our ability to access space in the future depends on how well we work with the education community. We need to stress that a real engineering design course must include designing for reliability and a long lived communications mission. I've watched this discussion for some time, and have a couple of things to say. Given what has been done in the past, and what is most likely practical, I don't see a lot of potential for amateur satellites in emergency communication. They could be pressed into service for remote area messaging, but real time communication is more likely to take place on HF, which is open in regional areas more often and for longer than the typical LEO pass. Maybe a geostationary satellite could be more practical for emergency use, though there would need to be 3 to cover (almost) all of the Earth - and my particular side would be at the bottom of the heap, unless it was the Chinese who put the bird up there. I see a lot more potential in partnering with the education community. They're seeking to train aerospace engineers, and perhaps working with this community - as mentors, given there's a lot of proven satellite expertise in AMSAT, as well as clients (to have students building to a specification). Amateur radio itself is about learning - usually self learning, but education would seem to broadly fall in the learning side of the hobby. Sharing that with industry and getting working transponders in return would seem like a win-win. I do think it should be a two way street, AMSAT helps the students and universities achieve their educational goals, and gets a working bird in return, once the primary mission is completed. From what was posted about Fox earlier, that sounds like a good example of this sort of thing. And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things. However, I also understand that times have changed, and I may never get the opportunity to try working a HEO in my lifetime. I'm not going to bag AMSAT for that, it's just the way the industry has gone, and the old launch opportunities have dried up. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money) So the number holds. Mark N8MH On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312 From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be for a P3E class satellite ? Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: ) Mark: Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America. Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs. Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO s! at! ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations. Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D). So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances: The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time. To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches. Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than launches if we can get others to support our launch costs. BTW, Aviation Week Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites: Doing More with Less) which highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese student F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week. Information about TechEdSat may be found here: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html Coupled with the launch costs is the justification for launches. NASA and others (such as the
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
At 02:47 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote in part: BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership; you can renew online at www.amsat.org... ;-) not in my lifetime as long as the only thing I see is the FM sats. By the way how is that program going to replace AO 40 ?? ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Thanks Barry and Mark for posting this number, I know it's been published in various Symposium Proceedings. I don't think some of the people who regularly post here and bemoan the good old days realize how much the launch cost really is or what the effort is to get that kind of money. If I ever win the PowerBall or Mega Millions, I'll cut AMSAT a check for the launch, but until then. John, AG9D On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Mark L. Hammond marklhamm...@gmail.comwrote: At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money) So the number holds. Mark N8MH On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312 From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be for a P3E class satellite ? Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: ) Mark: Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America. Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO s! at! ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations. Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D). So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances: The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time. To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches. Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than launches if we can get others to support our launch costs. BTW, Aviation Week Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites: Doing More with Less) which highlights this evolution, including cubesats,
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Actually, I hope folks understand and recall that AMSAT's mission and vision statement was changed a few years ago. http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/AboutAmsat/mission.php So there isn't a program underway to replace AO-40. That happened at an annual meeting and was voted on by paid members as I recall. Or maybe it was done by Board members elected by paid members. I honestly forget. This list, obviously, remains open to members and non-members alike. That too is a conscious decision by the organization. Mark N8MH On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM, John Becker w0...@big-river.net wrote: At 02:47 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote in part: BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership; you can renew online at www.amsat.org... ;-) not in my lifetime as long as the only thing I see is the FM sats. By the way how is that program going to replace AO 40 ?? ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb -- Mark L. Hammond [N8MH] ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO satellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. Very well put Barry. If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects took just 30 days. ArduSat - $106,330 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-in-space KickSat - $74,587 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space SkyCube - $116,890 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880837561/skycube-the-first-satellite-launched-by-you None of the individuals involved in those projects has any previous track record in building and launching satellites, yet lots of people were happy to back them with hard cash. How is it people with no proven track record can so easily raise such sums of money ? It's down to communications, they actively sought to engage with people and involve them in what they were doing. I think there's something we can learn here. Across the world millions of people are keen on space and would love to be involved in a space project, even if it's just donating $25 to it - We need to reach out to them. 73 Trevor M5AKA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/24/2012 03:47 PM, Barry Baines wrote: Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312 From: Mark Spencermspencer12345@ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca; s=s1024;t=1348432005; bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKuTO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE= Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be for a P3E class satellite ? Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: ) Mark: Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America. Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs. Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO sa t! ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations. Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D). So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances: The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time. To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches. Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than launches if we can get others to support our launch costs. BTW, Aviation Week Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites: Doing More with Less) which highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese student F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week. Information about TechEdSat may be found here: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html Coupled with the launch costs is the
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
What if we convince a consortium of educational institutions they need a HEO. Do educational institutions have to pay the going rate? 73 Bob W7LRD - Original Message - From: Trevor . m5...@yahoo.co.uk To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:18:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO satellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. Very well put Barry. If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects took just 30 days. ArduSat - $106,330 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-in-space KickSat - $74,587 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space SkyCube - $116,890 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880837561/skycube-the-first-satellite-launched-by-you None of the individuals involved in those projects has any previous track record in building and launching satellites, yet lots of people were happy to back them with hard cash. How is it people with no proven track record can so easily raise such sums of money ? It's down to communications, they actively sought to engage with people and involve them in what they were doing. I think there's something we can learn here. Across the world millions of people are keen on space and would love to be involved in a space project, even if it's just donating $25 to it - We need to reach out to them. 73 Trevor M5AKA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/24/2012 05:18 PM, Trevor . wrote: If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects took just 30 days. Pity we can't obtain funding by the same means. It isn't as if we wouldn't be able to include most of the functionality provided by these satellites as part of a secondary payload. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 9/24/12, Bob- W7LRD w7...@comcast.net wrote: What if we convince a consortium of educational institutions they need a HEO. Do educational institutions have to pay the going rate? snip If my alma mater is an indication, it might be a waste of time trying to convince a lot of educational institutions to put anything into orbit, let alone an amateur radio satellite. Several years ago, I attended an alumni function hosted by the department where I studied for my last 2 degrees (a master's in electrical engineering and a Ph. D. in electrical and computer engineering). I asked the chairman at the time why there was no interest in amateur radio in the department, figuring that it has covers many of the topics taught by the professors there plus it's a fun activity in which the students could use the technical knowledge that they learned. His answer was along the lines of no interest or not popular. In other words, amateur radio doesn't bring in large research grants and corresponding bragging rights which the department could use against its competitors at other universities. Since it doesn't have the same pizzazz as, say, nanotechnology or wearable computers, why bother? Besides, isn't amateur radio obsolete technology? (Of course, it didn't surprise me that he didn't know what D-STAR was.) However, I'd bet if a leading university would get involved in amateur radio satellites, a lot of engineering and physics departments would be falling all over themselves trying to get one into orbit. Meanwhile, my alma mater wonders why it's been years since I donated any money 73s Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
That would be the cost to fly as a secondary payload. The bulk of the launch cost is paid by the primary payload, and that currently runs anywhere from 90 million to 130 million, depending on payload weight and desired orbit. 73, Jim KQ6EA On 09/24/2012 08:04 PM, Mark L. Hammond wrote: At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money) So the number holds. Mark N8MH On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312 From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be for a P3E class satellite ? Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: ) Mark: Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America. Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs. Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO ! s! at! ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations. Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D). So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances: The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time. To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches. Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than launches if we can get others to support our launch costs. BTW, Aviation Week Space Technology Magazine had a series of articles in the 30 JUL 12 issue (Small Satellites: Doing More with Less) which highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese student F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
If AMSAT were given a near free launch by SpaceX or any of the other new rocket folks there is nothing to put on the bird. The Dragon launching to the space station Oct 7th is only carring 1000 pounds there is a lot of excess lift capability...nothing to put on it Robert WB5MZO Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:36:44 -0400 From: 8p...@anjo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) On 09/24/2012 03:47 PM, Barry Baines wrote: Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312 From: Mark Spencermspencer12345@ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca; s=s1024;t=1348432005; bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKuTO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE= Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be for a P3E class satellite ? Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: ) Mark: Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America. Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HEO! sa t! ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations. Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D). So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances: The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time. To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA grants in order to be able to afford launches. Clearly, it make much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather than launches if we can get others to support our
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
That's correct, but then again SpaceX isn't in business to give away launches. It's a false premise. However, the Fox project is building multiple flight units, because occasionally 1U cubesat slots do open on short notice, and an off-the-shelf spacecraft has a chance to fly. This isn't without cost however. As an example, the solar cells for Fox cost about $500 each, with 12 per spacecraft. Spare flight units also need to be tested and properly stored and maintained. But, with the cubesat form factor flying so often, it's a good risk. Other form factor spacecraft would require significant vehicle dependent engineering to launch in anything other than a PPOD or variant. 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2012, at 8:05 PM, R Oler orbit...@hotmail.com wrote: If AMSAT were given a near free launch by SpaceX or any of the other new rocket folks there is nothing to put on the bird. The Dragon launching to the space station Oct 7th is only carring 1000 pounds there is a lot of excess lift capability...nothing to put on it Robert WB5MZO ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
According to Google there are 33 teams ( http://www.googlelunarxprize.org/teams ) vying for the Google Lunar X Prize. Where are these groups getting the money for their launch to the moon? Are any of them for real? Many amateur space groups are just blowing hot air, they have a lot of enthusiasm but little understanding of just how hard space flight really is. The cheap launches to HEO are gone. If we want another HEO satellite we must think outside the box. Collaborations with other organizations will be our ticket to space in the 21st century. What if we offer to provide the communications system for one of these lunar missions. Provide one transponder/telemetry/command system for the lunar vehicle and build another one to drop off in HEO on the way to the moon. Our 50 year history of space communications gives us more credibility than anyone else in that field. Our experience and expertise might be welcomed by one or more of these teams. Assuming, of course, that they are for real and have funding for a launch Dan Schultz N8FGV ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
Drew..No it is not a false premise. .if SpaceX is flying with not used mass we should at least approach them to be able to see if we could put payloads on the vehicle..or take something to ISS...there is mass and space, the launch on Oct 7 will only carry 1000 lbs. Also we might be able to find some space on the Falcon heavy launch. Robert WB5MZO CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org From: glasbren...@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:56:33 -0400 To: orbit...@hotmail.com That's correct, but then again SpaceX isn't in business to give away launches. It's a false premise. However, the Fox project is building multiple flight units, because occasionally 1U cubesat slots do open on short notice, and an off-the-shelf spacecraft has a chance to fly. This isn't without cost however. As an example, the solar cells for Fox cost about $500 each, with 12 per spacecraft. Spare flight units also need to be tested and properly stored and maintained. But, with the cubesat form factor flying so often, it's a good risk. Other form factor spacecraft would require significant vehicle dependent engineering to launch in anything other than a PPOD or variant. 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2012, at 8:05 PM, R Oler orbit...@hotmail.com wrote: If AMSAT were given a near free launch by SpaceX or any of the other new rocket folks there is nothing to put on the bird. The Dragon launching to the space station Oct 7th is only carring 1000 pounds there is a lot of excess lift capability...nothing to put on it Robert WB5MZO ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
The main reason we are not going to have a AO-10 or 13 redo is that the odds of some launch provider allowing an AO payload to have an engine on it after AO-40 are small. IF for instance however we had had a payload on the first real (not the boilerplate) Dragon launch...well the second stage burned to a very nice elliptical orbit...Robert WB5MZO Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:05:09 + From: kq...@verizon.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312) That would be the cost to fly as a secondary payload. The bulk of the launch cost is paid by the primary payload, and that currently runs anywhere from 90 million to 130 million, depending on payload weight and desired orbit. 73, Jim KQ6EA On 09/24/2012 08:04 PM, Mark L. Hammond wrote: At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money) So the number holds. Mark N8MH On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines bbai...@mac.com wrote: Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312 From: Mark Spencer mspencer12345@ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be for a P3E class satellite ? Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: ) Mark: Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund raising efforts. The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the frame that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much maxed out what might be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America. Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio vision to what a HE! O ! s! at! ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a Case for Support that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations. Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself (though that also costs real money depending upon size and features and whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with P3-D). So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what AMSAT might be able to afford under current circumstances: The cost to launch a microsat (e.g. a 9 x 9 x 9 structure such as AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted for a 1u cubesat (4 x 4 x 4) back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that would likely increase in cost of time. To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and others who have real money to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has evolved from a university novelty to a standard spacecraft specification. This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 (we were selected in 2012
