Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games So I went looking for TLoU2 information on the forum ... And somehow it seems there is no straightforward explanation of anything. After a few pages in the TLoU2 topic, I think I got enough of an impression of sorta-kinda-maybe what the gameplay is like (not that I've found anyone actually just saying it). I guess it sounds reasonable-ish. More like T-ball than Dodgeball, to pretend anyone reads my posts.I'm still not going to bother, for all the numerous other reasons already mentioned. But I will concede that it represents significant progress toward mainstream accessibility. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/609360/#p609360 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
2021-01-24
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AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games Yeah I don't get the game playing itself argument. Since when is configurability a bad thing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/609337/#p609337 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games One must keep in mind that everything, even the smallest of a11y settings in that game, is a toggle. If you're blind and you want to, you could turn off the golden path, turn off the navigation audio cues, turn off everything. No problem. It's literally your choice as to how difficult you want things to be. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/609320/#p609320 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
2021-01-24
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : sightlessHorseman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games The mainstream Discord server is still a project I want to finish, the problem the last few weeks was that there were quite a lot of stones thrown my way regarding getting assistive devices for the work environment. I really hope that all this stuff gets solved in the coming days and weeks.Regarding tlou 2, if someone states that Tlou 2 basically plays itself just states that this person does actually don't know what he is talking about in the slightest. You can certainly turn on puzzle skipping, invisible while prone to full and unlimited breath under water, but the game gets really interesting when things like these are turned off and don't protect you at every corner. If you are trying to deconstruct the accessibility of a game, do keep in mind that you should actually have a knolledge about what is available and what can be modified.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/609308/#p609308 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games @26, You wouldn't necessarily need a capture card. You could use the XBox Console Companion, and I think that PS has one but not sure what it's called URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/609144/#p609144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Well it's not just games though, I mean in terms of mechanics, like what do I do at place X in game Y.I know Liam for example has mentioned using, I think, a capture card with his X-Box so he can do OCR on menus. Somebody who hears about "playable" or "accessible" games and decides to get a console isn't going to know a damn thing about that. I get not going through how you're doing whatever on every game stream, that would probably be pretty boring. But I mean, maybe somebody will see that they need additional hardware and decide not to play because it's not for them.That's kind of more what I mean, even just the basic setup. Something like Slay The Spire is accessible, though it still has a learning curve. Something like Hades doesn't sound very accessible, from my standpoint, at least I don't see how people who play it, if they are, are doing it. But you know you ask, "what's accessible", and somebody will go "fighting game X", and then you find out you need a capture card, or sighted assistance in parts, or whatever. I'd call that playable, but with a lot of work. I'm not gonna piss on anybody doing that, it's great that they're enjoying it.I just wish they'd be forthcoming about what it involves so that you have a much better idea about what the playable/accessible claim means. I think they feel that they've figured out a way to do it, so that means everybody can or should do that, and that's just not the case. I personally don't care so much about whether game X is fully accessible or involves a lot of button mashing or whatever. I mean I do, because I'd like to know what experience I'm getting. But I don't care in terms of what we might call really playable.That's a debate I'm not interested in having. You're playing it and enjoying it? Awesome! It's playable for you, whatever that means to you. But I think the problem is that people then just claim it's playable, without specifying what that actually means in practical terms. I should be fair and say some people. I think Liam, the only person I follow on any kind of regular basis so feel free to recommend more people if you think it's worth it, is pretty up front about how playable or not a game is, at least in general terms. And I don't fault him for not doing more because he is trying to just stream games and have fun, and getting into the nuts and bolts every single time would bore people to tears. But he at least tells you some stuff and gives critiques and all.But yeah, more guides and more practical discussion so people know what "playable" means in terms of each game would be really helpful. I mean people keep talking about consoles getting more and more accessible. That's probably true. But is it to the point where I'd be willing to buy one? Not so far as I can see, and none of the vague accessibility talk from most places is changing my mind. And I think that's sad because the big way to get more of this stuff happening is for more people to support it by buying it and using it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/609123/#p609123 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games That is a disappointment for me too. It's unfortunate that all these organisations like BDW, Able Gamers, etc. don't share what knowledge they have. Most of their spokespeople are streamers, which primarily do just that, stream games. If they're streaming, they want people to watch and donate money to them. They might explain how they do one thing or another while playing a game, but most people don't want to sift through an hours long stream that, in the case of Twitch, isn't even archived permanently to find out how to pass a certain thing. Next you have streamers like Brandon Cole, whose done some great things don't get me wrong, but the only reason he's able to play stuff like Diablo or Miles Morales is because he 1: has sighted people in the chat, and 2: has a gamer girlfriend who can help him figure stuff out in person when he's not streaming.Most blind gamers don't have one or both of those things. With these networks getting as large as they are recently, it's just sad no one's committing to write up guides for new players wanting to get into the scene. There's breakdownwalls.net, but all that thing has is a bunch of MK char guides which are written in MK Lingo, so you can't exactly understand what they're on about unless you already know how MK, and fighting games in general work. MK is often among the first fighting games recommended to someone asking about playable games, so the chances someone might not know the fighting game vocabulary is quite high.This is what the mainstream gaming Discord could have been immensely useful for. Even if no one ever wrote guides and stuff, at the very least it could have served as a place where you could ask for help with a game and someone who happened to be there could help you out in person, either through text or voice. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608973/#p608973 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Yeah, the mainstream VI gaming community isn't great at supporting newbies. I think it's a combination of A. not wanting to deal with the blindy community after they've been distancing them selves successfully for so long and probably don't want to come back and B. because it's frankly hard to explain allot of this stuff if you aren't in person and most people who ask probably only show a small amount of interest so the time VS reward ratio isn't worth it for them.That's just my read on it though,, I could be missing something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608951/#p608951 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I think the thing that frustrates me personally is like a 1 to Camlorn's 20.5 of raging.You ask what games are accessible, e.g. on Steam with controllers. "Oh fighting games like Ninja Bloodstorm Revinocu Diorama Fight Park 3.7"! Then you go, OK, let's check that out on Youtube, and it's just a bunch of fighting noises. Then you ask about accessibility, and it's pretty much "well you can hear the direction of the enemies".For me, that's not accessibility, at least not as it stands. I don't mean that in quite the same sense Camlorn does. I mean, OK, maybe it's playable somehow or other. But "you can tell the direction of the enemies" doesn't really help me much. OK, great. How am I navigating stuff? How am I picking options, fighting the enemies, things like that? I have no idea, and a lot of more mainstream game players seem to have that attitude of "I had to suffer through figuring it out, you do that too".So for me, I check out games like that on Youtube, and I have absolutely no idea what in the hell's going on. Like I said, it's just a bunch of random fighting noises. So I mean, I've asked about this a few times over the years, e.g. what X-Box stuff is accessible, is it worth getting one, stuff like that. I either get vague answers or crickets. If people really want to push for more mainstream game accessibility, getting something together to help potential newbies would be a big step, IMO. Maybe there's something out there I'm just unfamiliar with. But just a good solid getting started with more mainstream games, what's available, how do they work, practically speaking, stuff like that.Then people could make their own decisions about whether or not Hades or Warrior Lizards 12 or whatever is actually accessible and worth buying on Steam or shelling out for a console or what have you. I'm all fine with different people being able to handle different levels of accessibility and getting enjoyment from it. But it's frustrating, for me at least, to be told "oh yeah X is accessible", when you can mostly only really find that out by spending money on X, which I will happily do. Then you manage to chase down some game playing of X and it's just random noises, so as far as you can tell, no, X isn't really accessible at all.And I mean, I'm like, old and shit. I played video games, totally blind, on the Atari 2600 when it first came out. So I'm down with some random joystick movement and button mashing, up to a point. But to Camlorn's point, this ain't the old days of Space Invaders and stuff. That approach seems a lot less satisfying and useful in modern games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608919/#p608919 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
2021-01-22
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games It started freaking me out when they were able to simulate long hair moving and flowing as it normally does when you move, and do so quite realistically. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608908/#p608908 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games You're thinking of 3D games as made of tiles, but they're not anymore. Think more like tens of thousands of triangles for relatively small parts of the level, oriented in all sorts of directions. Even the concept of "ground" isn't actually really a thing if you don't want it to be: you just let the physics engine do the physics engine thing off the triangle soup. That's an at least slight simplification, but it's nonetheless accurate enough.In-game archery for example can be as accurate as real-world archery, including simulating the arrow falling due to gravity and wind conditions if you want it to be, and you might fall anywhere on the spectrum from lock-on to you literally have to be as good at aiming as a real world archer. Characters are simulated to the level of arms, sometimes to the level of individual fingers.Precision varies from "meh, whatever" to "this pipe is literally as wide as your character's feet and you have to run across it while being shot at", depending on the game. Your measurements aren't inaccurate in the sense that that's a common enough requirement, but they're inaccurate in the sense that that's not really the minimum. 1ft^3 is very, very large when close up.So, first you have to develop a walking detector that can turn triangle soup into here is a surface you can traverse and how you can traverse it. This is going to range from not so bad, where not so bad means you put one dev on the team on it full time for a couple weeks, through to impossible. You might or might not have some sort of pathfinding matrix to go read from, depending. Also, hope they don't screw with gravity or something. And whatever this is has to deal with those skinny pipes or whatever--and have I mentioned they can be curved, and that the cutoff of where you can or can't walk on a sloped surface isn't a constant, it's due to whatever the real-world simulation of physics says about friction?Then you maybe need your "you fell down, here is your vertical orientation" communication thing, depending. Enemies above the player are a problem because HRTF isn't that good. Maybe the game is 3rd person. If it's 3rd person you probably need to add some sort of first person viewpoint. Except that if it was 3rd person, that might have been because even sighted people would have trouble playing it from a first person perspective, since the artists/designers were trying to give you an overview and puzzles might rely on it, so now you're making a thing that even sighted people can't handle accessible.If it can be done in the real world it can be done in a game. Games are at the point of simulating curtains because games have run out of things to simulate. You can do stuff like realistically stack dishes on a table in at least Skyrim. Maybe you find a 3d game that's mostly 2d, doesn't require anything resembling spatial accuracy, and that has incredibly good pathfinding metadata. But things like Unity make it trivial to have a game that's accurate to the real world to the point where the illusion doesn't break down even if you zoom in as close as you can, so much so that the limit isn't the game but the resolution of your TV, and it runs on a medium-end laptop. So everyone just does that now. if you're sighted and you want to make a big 3D game, you have to actively opt out of this tooling. The equivalents of 3D game BGT run at this level. There are a few things that are sort of unsolved like realistic water simulations, but that's the sort of thing that's irrelevant because if whatever magical solution got as far as needing to make realistic water accessible, it'd be the kind of thing that's doing groundbreaking machine learning.Seriously. When I say that to solve this in the general case you need an AI or something and it would solve it in the real world too, I'm really, truly not kidding around. You might be able to identify games which are low spatial accuracy and with a ton of level metadata and in that case maybe you've reduced the problem set down to the world's most monumental UX challenge. But adding that metadata takes human effort, it's not automatic. So you're going to get the bare minimum to make the game AI run.Lidar is capable of producing real world triangle meshes at a much higher resolution than game engines. Give me a game AI navigation buddy that's not going to take multiple man-years per game engine plus at least man-months of customization per game after that, and I'll give you guide dog drones. Probably actually guide dog helmets since putting lidar on a drone and getting any real battery life out of it isn't a super feasible ask at the moment, but nonetheless these challenges are pretty close to equivalent.And every year, the engines get more realistic and require less structured data,, just generally working their way to nothing but the triangle soup. You may think "surely it's
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games But realistically, if you're dealing with a human-sized avatar, an accessible resolution of 1ft^3 is quite optimistic, yeah. I do get the impression that, unless you're talking FPS type controls where precise aiming matters, most mainstream games actually are about 1ft^3 in terms of what they expect from players, or thereabouts, with all the fine details mostly being for immersion rather than gameplay. But maybe I'm misunderstanding bits and pieces of information that have Marine Snowed in over the years.You say a handful, but I've only heard of like two people who got far enough in the JFIMA for me to conclude it's playable. I do feel like a more competent sound designer could improve on the concepts and get us the 3d equivalent of BK3, but that's clearly not me.And that's a resolution of, like, 1m^3. That's abismal by mid 90s standards. But everything else we have is abismal by mid 90s standards, so whatever.(OK, actually, the size of voxels in the JFIMA is not especially consistent, because I established the low/mid/high thing using a house as the first map, and I needed something more like 1.5m to get chairs / tables / counters. But then the JFIMA has cars and sidewalks, and clearly the voxels need to be bigger. But the point is that the resolution is terrible and I don't see it improving.Meh, I'd be happy with a game that is to the JFIMA as BK3 is to Mario, probably. But that would never work as a mainstream game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608898/#p608898 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games @18In so far as I know, everything you've done isn't even close to the complexity of the games you're mentioning. You have to rewind the clock a lot further for that. I'm pretty sure that even half-life had a full physics engine approximating the real world, but it was at the beginning of that era so it's possible it didn't. I know half-life 2 did, though, being as I could play it; you might have made navigation accessible but not good enough to do a firefight. Games since then have developed larger, more complex environments. If you want to do something like a modern RPG then even figuring out the world map is a challenge--nothing like small islands of realistic geography to make your life fun.You've shown that you can write a 3D game for the blind which can be played by a small minority of blind players, but Audioquake showed the same thing, and no matter how you slice it 3D games have moved on since then. Some game engines (Unity) are now used by self-driving car people. They have extra metadata and level designers could add extra things to the level to make it work, but solving the problem in the general case would solve it for the real world too.If you/this thread wants my positive outlook? Reach out to people like Slay the Spire, be like "if you just added text to speech blind people could play" and start trying to make inroads there. There's enough things that could be made accessible that we don't need to chase the ones that can't, if we're going to chase it. We could and really should be aiming for the low-hanging fruit first. Hit up people making rhythm games. "have you seen Sequence storm?". Or people making fight games. If it weren't for the bullet hell aspects, I think you could almost, almost do undertale. But there's a whole world of games like that that are 2d and in something tile-based and all you'd need is Shadow Line levels of stuff to play them, but what everyone cares about are the big AAA 3D games that can't really be adapted even with near-infinite money. Game accessibility is doable. hell, if you went to indie studios doing popular-but-underpaying things and said "here is $2 and here is how you make the game accessible" things would happen, no infinite money/hypothetical solutions required. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608889/#p608889 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I still say it can be done under the right circumstances. But I also notice that the right circumstances involves an uncomfortable number of grappling hooks and magic equivalents. By which I mean, before I got anywhere near here, and was designing 3d level concepts, I kept running into "if a genie gave me this right now, how could I actually play it?" problems, which tended to result in high-forgiveness features and tools to make precision less pinpoint and more dinner-plate, so to speak. But mainstream games have done similar things. In 2d, sure, most games say either jump the whole way or climb a rope/ladder, but some let you catch a ledge if you get close enough, and climb up. Slower than a perfect jump, but acceptable in most circumstances, and allows the devs to play with level design and jump animations in different ways. In 3d, Sonic games introduced the hoaming attack, because it turns out that jumping on moving enemies with precision in 3d is a lot harder than in low-res 2d.And I could sorta imagine a co-op game with the ability to target-lock, allowing one player to target the other in order to follow them sighted guide style. It would have to be a very solid game wherein this does not significantly detract from the experience, though, which sounds challenging, but still doable.But why do I bother? Nobody's going to do it right. Give me $100 million, the best software and hardware, and an elixor of infinite AP, and I'm sure I'd still mess it up. Windows Vista was in development for over 10 years before it came out, and aiui, it's the least popular version of Windows since ME. How about NASA's SLS? Duke Nukum Forever? I'd say Halflife III but I don't know if that's a good example? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608887/#p608887 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games @14It's not about whether they did it. It's about the fact that if you're blind enough that you can't see it, you have to turn off a huge chunk of the game.But my point isn't specifically that it sucks, my point is that saying it's objectively good isn't accurate, and it existing doesn't change the fact that blind people chase the "I can play sighted games" dream so far as things like Diablo where you really can't. Maybe all the people chasing it secretly have enough vision to play it. As I said, I used to. But that doesn't ever seem to be the case.Everyone has forgotten audioquake. Audioquake certainly didn't have people playing as well as sighted people. But you didn't have to turn things off to play it. Being blind doesn't inherently make needing to turn things off necessary.Maybe in the case of The Last of Us, it's only possible to adapt the game by doing that, and as usual they're not going to spend too much extra money on covering the last 10%. They've done a lot for a lot of disabilities, and the fact that doing this for blindness in such a way that it's not flip all the switches to off takes like twice as much effort as they put in isn't on them. In so far as it being a generally good effort that let a lot of people play videogames that wouldn't otherwise have been able to do, yes, they succeeded--but blind people are only like 5% of that.But nonetheless, look at Sequence Storm. That dev said "ok, I've got blind players. How do I make a fun game for blind players" and went out and figured out how to do that, rather than just giving us a bunch of toggles to make the game easier and easier. The Last of Us solves the problem with a hammer. That's not well-balanced anything.Someone big had to try first. Maybe someone will try next. Maybe eventually someone will approach this from a more reasonable philosophy and think specifically about blind players. Lots of games like Slay the Spire literally just need TTS.I'm also not saying anything is unethical. I'm saying that the people who chase sighted gaming seem unhealthy, and as though they can't really cope with blindness. They're not doing anything morally wrong. But you don't find it even slightly unsettling that there's this zealous faction who will defend the idea that they can grab a sighted game and have at it even though they're basically continuously failing and only succeeding by chance, and that if you so much as call that into question everyone immediately gets super angry? I certainly do.@15The game handles navigation for you, disables a bunch of combat etc etc etc. And you still die. That doesn't say what you want it to say. It's another piece of evidence that we can't make complex 3d games accessible no matter how hard we try, not a piece of evidence that they somehow did some great job doing this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608859/#p608859 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games @9: Good on you for actually checking the list. And it sounds like a depressing list, tbh, like you're disabling mechanics to make the game less of a game.So I am still wondering ... with navigation and environmental hazards and all that disabled, what do you actually do? What are people playing the game for? It's not the story; that's what Youtube's for. Is it combat? Like, I really don't understand the point.I tried playing Dodgeball in elementary school. Then a girl slowly walked up, tagged me with a ball, and cheerfully announced that I was out, as though this was supposed to make me feel included. OTOH, I could sorta stand T-ball with a sighted runner, since speed was the important part and staying on the line was assumed to be trivial for everyone else. Are we playing Dodgeball, or T-ball? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608854/#p608854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Tlou2 plays itself? explains why I died so often. I guess the game just sucks at playing itself. You can turn off half the gameplay, sure. It's the half of the gameplay nobody (blind or sighted) is playing the game for.Nobody bought the game to enjoy Naughty dog's rope climbing physics or to practice their ledge jumping, which by the way, you can still fall to your death with that feature enabled. It's not there to make it impossible for you to fall to your death. It's there so you know when you're about to do it.The game doesn't automatically skip puzzles for you. when you're in a puzzle, you're told that if you have trouble completing the puzzle, you can skip it at any time. I skipped them all because I only cared about the story my first playthrough, but others on the forum have talked about not having to use that feature.Fun fact: Sighted people use auto-aim too, because, and I don't mean this in a condescending sarcastic way, but it's actually really difficult to aim with a joystick. the thing that automatically faces your character in the right direction is not automatic. You can wander wherever and however you want, but if you're lost then you can hit l3 and then yes, you will be pointed in the right direction for story progression. It does not help you in combat or other encounters where you don't have a specific location to travel to. The swimming underwater thing is something I never had on because it's just not necessary for us. there are haptic and audible warnings when you're running out of breath, and surfacing for air is really easy to do, though I rarely had to because most water sequences are really short.yes, you can't enjoy 100% of details that went into the game. I'll never be able to visually look at the Seattle that is portrayed there and I'll never be able to navigate through story progression without the golden path thing, though you can definitely get through a lot without needing it, but I can play (and beat) the game on a similar difficulty level as a sighted person. those sighted people can and do configure a lot of those settings too, by the way.Regarding hades, you don't really need any mods to play or beat the game, nor do you need god mode, especially once you're familiar with how the enemies in the game world act.Even if you choose to use god mode (I did,) you can still enjoy 100% of the story, which is the main reason I play the game in the first place.There are some games where I'm inclined to agree with you on, like Gears 5 for example. The fact that all you can really play without sighted help is hoard mode, and that only on beginner mode makes the game seem really silly for us, but I'm not gonna say people are desperate for choosing to play it. It is fun for a little while! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608853/#p608853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Tlou2 plays itself? explains why I died so often. I guess the game just sucks at playing itself. You can turn off half the gameplay, sure. It's the half of the gameplay nobody (blind or sighted) is playing the game for.Nobody bought the game to enjoy Naughty dog's rope climbing physics or to practice their ledge jumping, which by the way, you can still fall to your death with that feature enabled. It's not there to make it impossible for you to fall to your death. It's there so you know when you're about to do it.The game doesn't automatically skip puzzles for you. when you're in a puzzle, you're told that if you have trouble completing the puzzle, you can skip it at any time. I skipped them all because I only cared about the story my first playthrough, but others on the forum have talked about not having to use that feature.Fun fact: Sighted people use auto-aim too, because, and I don't mean this in a condescending sarcastic way, but it's actually really difficult to aim with a joystick. the thing that automatically faces your character in the right direction is not automatic. You can wander wherever and however you want, but if you're lost then you can hit l3 and then yes, you will be pointed in the right direction for story progression. It does not help you in combat or other encounters where you don't have a specific location to travel to. The swimming underwater thing is something I never had on because it's just not necessary for us. there are haptic and audible warnings when you're running out of breath, and surfacing for air is really easy to do, though I rarely had to because most water sequences are really short.yes, you can't enjoy 100% of details that went into the game. I'll never be able to visually look at the Seattle that is portrayed there and I'll never be able to navigate through story progression without the golden path thing, though you can definitely get through a lot without needing it, but I can play (and beat) the game on a similar difficulty level as a sighted person. those sighted people can and do configure a lot of those settings too, by the way.Regarding hades, you don't really need any mods to play or beat the game, nor do you need god mode, especially once you're familiar with how the enemies in the game world act.Even if you choose to use god mode (I did,) you can still enjoy 100% of the story, which is the main reason I play the game in the first place.There are some games where I'm inclined to agree with you on, like Gears 5 for example. The fact that all you can really play without sighted help is hoard mode, and that only on beginner mode makes the game seem really silly for us. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608853/#p608853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games @9: Good on you for actually checking the list. And it sounds like a depressing list, tbh, like you're disabling mechanics to make the game less of a game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608854/#p608854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Tlou2 plays itself? explains why I died so often. I guess the game just sucks at playing itself. You can turn off half the gameplay, sure. It's the half of the gameplay nobody (blind or sighted) is playing the game for.Nobody bought the game to enjoy Naughty dog's rope climbing physics or to practice their ledge jumping, which by the way, you can still fall to your death with that feature enabled. It's not there to make it impossible for you to fall to your death. It's there so you know when you're about to do it.yes, you can't enjoy 100% of details that went into the game. I'll never be able to visually look at the Seattle that is portrayed there and I'll never be able to navigate through story progression without the golden path thing, though you can definitely get through a lot without reaching it, but I can play (and beat) the game on a similar difficulty level as a sighted person. those sighted people can and do configure a lot of those settings too, by the way.Regarding hades, you don't really need any mods to play or beat the game, nor do you need god mode, especially once you're familiar with how the enemies in the game world act.Even if you choose to use god mode (I did,) you can still enjoy 100% of the story, which is the main reason I play the game in the first place.There are some games where I'm inclined to agree with camlorn on, like Gears 5 for example. The fact that all you can really play without sighted help is hoard mode, and that only on beginner mode makes the game seem really silly for us. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608853/#p608853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
2021-01-22
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games The pessimism regarding TLOU2 makes no sense. Games have been letting you configure various settings for years, how is having the option to configure accessibility settings any different? No, it's not perfect, but who is able to grab a bow or rifle and hit the bulls eye at a hundred yards on their first shot? That's a lot of effort to just casually disregard because it didn't tick a few specific boxes for you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608837/#p608837 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games About 12 years ago, my brother owned a Nintendo DS. I couldn't even begin to play any of the games we had properly, but you know what? I still had the time of my life fucking around in the mario cart courses, learning the level layouts of some of the 2d beat em ups, and trying all the different Super Mario levels and minigames to see how far I'd get. And Also? I even figured out some of them, and had a blast doing so. It got to the point where I got my own DSI and kept playing on that one for a long time. So this just reinforces my point. I couldn't normally pass even a single level of Super Mario's main game mode, so needed a cartridge with a completed save on it. Still loved the hell out of it, and I still remember how cool it felt when I got lucky with a giant mario power up and managed to beat w1l1. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608828/#p608828 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games About 12 years ago, my brother owned a Nintendo DS. I couldn't even begin to play any of the games we had properly, but you know what? I still had the time of my life fucking around in the mario cart courses, learning the level layouts of some of the 2d beat em ups, and trying all the different Super Mario levels and minigames to see how far I'd get. And Also? I even figured out some of them, and had a blast doing so. It got to the point where I got my own DSI and kept playing on that one for a long time. So this just reinforces my point. I couldn't even get past the first level of Mario so needed a cartridge with a completed save on it. Still loved the hell out of it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608828/#p608828 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Assuming every blind person who plays mainstream games, be they with a11y features or without is doing so out of desperation or denial, is a picture book case of generalizing. Who are you to decide what people are supposed to enjoy? Who are you to say what their reasons are for enjoying these things? Who are you to call anyone working as a consultant, anyone advocating to companies and dev teams, anyone experimenting with things others deemed impossible "desperate or denying?"I don't agree with everything some of the bdw or able gamers people say and do. I don't take all their words as Gospel like some others. But testing, implementing, and using a11y features in Tlou2 is not bashing a controller waiting for the right sounds to play. The non-vision preset you posted is just that, a preset. You can turn all that shit off. You can play the game with the right audio cues and that's it if that's how you want to play it. So for fuck's sake, let people play whatever they want in whatever way they want. If someone really is desperate enough to run around WoW with a sighted guide so they can pretend they're actually participating in and contributing to raids or whatever, then let them. It won't hurt you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608783/#p608783 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Exactly. We got only one, and these people made an effort when many others didn't. That counts for something, and like connor said before; people have different levels and ways of enjoying a game, and that's what matters in the end, doesn't it? If a game isn't perfect in accessibility but people still have fun, fun that makes them jump when some crazy shit happens, fun that makes them hooked to the game, fun that makes them wanting more, then that's all that matters doesn't it? Enjoyment is the point of a game, it doesn't have to be perfect to be able to accomplish that, but like I said, some people may not like it that way. Some people may want a hundred percent accessibility and inclusiveness and that is perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean that the game in general isn't up to the standards, it may not be according to you, but people are still having their fun with it, and if that's the case then I dare say that the company did a good enough job at least for a first, and I am extremely thankful to the work put in by them. Most of those features are optional like someone mentioned before and it doesn't necessarily make the game super easy to do either, ratking anyone? Indeed they have done a better job than many audio games have, where either the games are too complicated making the gamer want to rage quit entirely due to the mere complexity in the mechanics or simply so easy that there is no challenge offered what so ever. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608794/#p608794 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Assuming every blind person who plays mainstream games, be they with a11y features or without, is a picture book case of generalizing. Who are you to decide what people are supposed to enjoy? Who are you to say what their reasons are for enjoying these things? Who are you to call anyone working as a consultant, anyone advocating to companies and dev teams, anyone experimenting with things others deemed impossible "desperate or denying?"I don't agree with everything some of the bdw or able gamers people say and do. I don't take all their words as Gospel like some others. But testing, implementing, and using a11y features in Tlou2 is not bashing a controller waiting for the right sounds to play. The non-vision preset you posted is just that, a preset. You can turn all that shit off. You can play the game with the right audio cues and that's it if that's how you want to play it. So for fuck's sake, let people play whatever they want in whatever way they want. If someone really is desperate enough to run around WoW with a sighted guide so they can pretend they're actually participating in and contributing to raids or whatever, then let them. It won't hurt you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608783/#p608783 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Assuming every blind person who plays mainstream games, be they with a11y features or without, is a picture book case of generalizing. Who are you to decide what people are supposed to enjoy? Who are you to say what their reasons are for enjoying these things? Who are you to call anyone working as a consultant, anyone advocating to companies and dev teams, anyone experimenting with things others deemed impossible "desperate or denying?"I don't agree with everything some of the bdw or able gamers people say and do. I don't take all their words as Gospel like some others. But testing, implementing, and using a11y features in Tlou2 is not bashing a controller waiting for the right sounds to play. The non-vision preset you posted is just that, a preset. You can turn all that shit off. You can play the game with the right audio cues and that's it if that's how you want to play it. So for fuck's sake, let play whatever they want in whatever way they want. If someone really is desperate enough to run around WoW with a sighted guide so they can pretend they're actually participating in and contributing to raids, then let them. It won't hurt you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608783/#p608783 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I don't want to defend the game, because it could be better in many ways, but many of those options you've mentioned are optional. Turn off auto-aim or auto-jumping and the game is still playable. It's not like press X to win. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608742/#p608742 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Ok, so from here, the vision preset:https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/the-last-of-us-part-ii/accessibility/You get a thing that prevents you from falling off ledges to your death, a thing that skips puzzles, at least one thing that makes combat easier, an auto-aim, a thing that always faces your character in the right direction, a thing that auto-performs jumps and stuff like that, a thing that lets you swim underwater infinitely, and so on. And that's even before we go down the list of specific toggles that make combat easier.Maybe it doesn't technically play itself, but you can turn off probably at least half the gameplay. In so far as calling it the best balanced example that's like saying Earth is the best planet with humans on it or something. You've only got one, so of course it's the best. A well-balanced inclusive game shouldn't have to have us turn off gameplay for accessibility, it should let us participate in gameplay.I mean, at least it makes more sense than playing all the ones where you just bash around until you win, I suppose. But anyone defending it as the best thing ever has a long, long way to go to convince me that the general phenomenon isn't some sort of denial and/or desperation thing. I don't know anything about this specific tester, but in general accessibility people are one of the worst groups for admitting that being disabled is actually, you know, a disability. So "a blind person tested it" doesn't automatically invalidate anything I'm saying either. Nor does a video that looks impressive. Hearing a bunch of gameplay sounds and having someone play it when your hand isn't on the controller isn't enough to know what the experience will actually be like, and it isn't enough to know how it compares to the sighted experience either.Something like Hades could have been made accessible. It wasn't. People still go nuts trying to play it. In what way is this healthy? It's not about "handling it" or anything like that. You can try all you want but the information just isn't there. I give Naughty Dog a lot of points for trying, and I wish that other more feasible games did. Lots of fighting stuff could be done for one thing. But that's not the world we live in.The world we live in is the world in which we can't develop audiogames because blind people have no money and no desire to pay for things, so everyone gets desperate and bashes on whatever sighted game they've got, in some sort of delusional idea that this is even 10% of the sighted experience. Yeah, videogames are kind of amazing, and I wish I could still play them. Don't get me wrong. But, I mean, if you want to randomly hit things until stuff happens get a combination lock and set it to a random combination or something while a CD of combat sounds plays, it's basically the same thing.Anyway, end rant. And cue a lot of mad people I suppose. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608737/#p608737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I have not looked too deeply into the last of us two, and got the impression that "the game plays itself "is roughly half or more correct. What does the player actuallydo that makes it worthwhile?But yeah, I live by myself and require one euphamism of an incentive to bother with mainstream games, because that would mean I'd be buying and setting up the console ... Ugh, and getting someone to fix my internet because you can't play games without internet anymore for some stupid, stupid, stupid reason. So we're looking at, what, a few months of saving, plus unpleasant human interaction, all to play some games (plural, because there does not exist a single game worth that). Said experience better be euphamism good.I mean, I'm here making this comment, so clearly I'd prefer it if things were different. But good luck selling me on ... basically any game I could possibly play independently, never mind enough to justify all the setup. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608680/#p608680 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I will just step in here to say the following:The last of us two, most certainly does not "Play it self". I have seen several people struggling with parts and enjoying the game overall. Imo it is one of the most balanced game when it comes to inclusiveness we've seen in a while.People, I get that realism should always be kept in mind and one should not daydream but, sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask yourself whether you're being "realistic?" or "pessimistic"? Especially when the information in question is completely invalid, and there are proofs and evidences for the same.We are no where near perfection, but there are people out there who are making efforts and trying, and sooner or later we will have to acknowledge this fact and try to be a little more positive, have been seeing our community do quite the opposite for a good while so thought I'd point this simple yet crucial factor out. With that, hope you all have a good day.Peace URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608663/#p608663 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I will just step in here to say the following:The last of us two, most certainly does not "Play it self". I have seen several people struggling with parts and enjoying the game overall. Imo it is one of the most balanced game when it comes to inclusiveness we've seen in a while.People, I get that realism should always be kept in mind and one should not daydream but, sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask whether you're being "realistic?" or "pessimistic"? Especially when the information in question is completely invalid, and there are proofs and evidences for the same.We are no where near perfection, but there are people out there who are making efforts and trying, and sooner or later we will have to acknowledge this fact and try to be a little more positive, have been seeing our community do quite the opposite for a good while so thought I'd point this simple yet crucial factor out. With that, hope you all have a good day.Peace URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608663/#p608663 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Lol wondering if @3 even watched blind people playing the game to come to the conclusion they came to. If the game did basically play itself, people like Brandon wouldn't have had nearly as much trouble with some sections as they did, and he was one of the a11y testers btw, so he already knew what was going down. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608651/#p608651 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games In my experience, some people can handle it and most can't. I just feel happy for those who are able to still enjoy them selves, and ultimately that's what is most important anyway. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608623/#p608623 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I always played games of people who can see without problems, including I finished them all, and I always felt gratified with myself. I don't mind playing normal games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608478/#p608478 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games I have yet to see anyone really play a non-modded game in a way that I would consider satisfying, and the typical experience is you bash around and hit stuff until you "win". We have the last of us 2, but it looks like the accessibility features in that are basically "and now the game plays itself". There's a few other sighted games that bothered to do stuff. There's Slay the Spire and Quake, which have mods by the blind community. So, sometimes we can get one.But this topic is about playing games that offer nothing. If you have enough vision to get something out of it I see the point. For many years I could sit on top of the TV and play stuff.But since it's already controversial. I honestly have trouble seeing the "let's all go play sighted games because we can technically win, by the way I have no vision" thing as anything but denial and some sort of unhealthy coping mechanism. There are better things to do with your time than pretend you're sighted and bash on a controller bumping off things until you stumble on the right button sequence. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608418/#p608418 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Accessibility in video games
Re: Accessibility in video games Well some times but the feelling of progressing / finishing a game on your own is verry gratifying. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608409/#p608409 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Accessibility in video games
Accessibility in video games I am going to open a controversial topic. Maybe this is not the right place, feel free to move the post if necessary.It turns out that in the Hispanic community there is talk that there are some games accessible to blind people. We are talking about titles like Hades.Talking on Telegram with a friend who is not visually impaired he said something like "Hades without seeing you can try to play, but just try".The point is that I see blind people playing play Station or pc games, games that are not fully playable by visually impaired people.I even read Brandon Cole saying that Animal Crossing is playable by blind people.How much is it worth paying for games that can't be completed without the help of someone who can see the screen? Doesn't it frustrate you to spend hours trying to move along a wall?Sorry for my bad English. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/608399/#p608399 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
