Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
duke43j;427380 Wrote: There is a lot of bad information floating around with respect to hi-fi equipment. A digital cable either works, or it doesn't work. If it doesn't work you would hear pops, skips or dropouts in the audio. There is no way you would hear a change in tonality. A digital cable carries 1's and 0's. If it was faulty, 1's would be mistaken for 0's, and vice-versa. This would cause the data to fail an error check and the sample would be discarded. If one or two samples are discarded, the unit is supposed to keep playing the same sound as the last good sample; but this can go on for only about 1/1000 of a second. If it continues, then the unit will mute the output (a dropout). With this kind of operation, there is no way you would characterize the resulting sound as not having enough air, or losing detail. Im afraid you're a ways off the mark here. You need to get caught up on the subject before debunking the bad information. What jitter does is it smears the high frequencies, and this phenomenon is readily observed with just an audio spectrum analyzer, regardless of what anyone thinks it does or doesn't sound like. However, I would say that a loss of detail is a perfectly reasonable description. The older DACs had a clock that was tied to the rate at which the data appeared on its input. If the input data appeared at irregular times (jitter), then the clock in the DAC would tick at irregular intervals (although it would try to smoothe it out as best it could). Reclockers try to smoothe the data rate before they get to the DAC unit. This extra smoothing reduced the jitter even further. Newer DACs with an asynchronous rate converter have two clocks; one to clock in the jittery input data, and a second, very stable clock, to clock the D/A chip. What you're talking about is properly called ASRC or Asynchronous sample rate conversion. In the Benchmark DAC1 it is implemented by an AD1896 chip, and prior to this chip's availability I don't think any off the shelf DACs did it. However, it is NOT _generally_ a feature of newer DACs, and it is not simply a means of having a second more stable local clock. In ASRC, the data stream is mathematically resampled to a completely different rate (eg 110KHz), not merely re-clocked. This certainly eliminates susceptibility to the conventional mechanism of s/pdif jitter, but it also completely reconstructs the data stream and the potential audible impact of resampling should not be overlooked. As long as you don't starve the unit by not feeding it data, or the opposite problem of feeding it too much data, jitter on the input data shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. s/pdif uses only a continuous clock signal that is embedded (manchester encoded) in the data. It does not rely on the kind starving or not flow control you're imagining. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
Not all clocks seem to be created equal either. According to an engineer from Linn Products (admittedly a comptetor, but he did write a Squeezecenter emulator for Linn's DS range, so may know what he is talking about): -As for the clocks - within SBs they vary widely - an old SB1 can drift as much as 10s on an average length track, whilst I have seen a duet with minimal drift. The DS clock is extremely accurate, the SB clocks are obviously not as good in some cases.- http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=2848 10 seconds a track!! -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
JezA;427392 Wrote: -As for the clocks - within SBs they vary widely - an old SB1 can drift as much as 10s on an average length track, whilst I have seen a duet with minimal drift. The DS clock is extremely accurate, the SB clocks are obviously not as good in some cases.- True, SB1 had poor clocking, and a number of other bugs related to PCM passthrough mode, due to bugs in its black-box DSP chip. I don't know about 10s (maybe 10ms?) over the length of a track, but by modern standards not good. All products since SB2 have extremely good clocks and correct handling of raw PCM, so his statement is quite disingenuous in extrapolating that observation to current models, or the SB clocks in general. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Help - distorted sounds!
Have you tried different firmware? Also, have you tried resetting the machine? -- agentsmith System 1: Transporter+Hi-Line RCA-DIN, Naim 202/200/Hicap+Powerline/NAPSC, Naim NAT03 tuner, Harbeth Monitor 30 System 2: SB2 or Airport Express connected via TOSLINK to a Meridian F80 Headphone: Naim Headline+NAPSC and ancient Senn HD580 agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63669 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
I sent an inquiry to S.N., whose response is not surprising, but does support the validity of why re-clocking is necessary in reducing jitter. From what I interpret from the information I have read recently, the claims made by the DAC manufacturers are not, shall I say accurate. Evidently, even the low rated jitter of some DACs (say 0.0003%) is still (very) audible; this is what I just read, but its hard to believe that such low measurements could be (very) audible. We do however see quite a few reviewers who say re-clocking makes an audible difference in their systems. The question for me is one of cost vs return (isnt it always). I can get a new PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC for $2,000 (with a trade in), or a Pace-Car with all the added options for about the same price. I will certainly wait to hear the PWD before making any decisions. I would love to hear a demonstration on jitter, so I would know whether, or not, (I) can even hear any differences. -- timequest timequest's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25640 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
Jitter in the digital world is like noise in the analog world; it's everwhere. Every component, including cables, contributes to jitter. You can't avoid it. Of course, if you don't reduce jitter from wherever it comes from (including cables), you will have problems. My point is that if one uses a DAC with an ASRC, jitter from all external sources (including cables) should be largely eliminated. So, cables shouldn't be an issue unless they are so bad that the input device can't read the data at all, in which case you will have dropouts. So to address the original question -- Do I need a reclocker if my DAC uses an ASRC?, and a subsequent question -- Do I need expensive cables? My opinion on both is No, because external jitter should not be an issue when using a well designed DAC having an asynchronous rate converter. I stand by my statement that there is a lot of bad information out there regarding this area. -- duke43j duke43j's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15911 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
duke43j;427428 Wrote: Jitter in the digital world is like noise in the analog world; it's everwhere. Every component, including cables, contributes to jitter. You can't avoid it. Of course, if you don't reduce jitter from wherever it comes from (including cables), you will have problems. My point is that if one uses a DAC with an ASRC, jitter from all external sources (including cables) should be largely eliminated. So, cables shouldn't be an issue unless they are so bad that the input device can't read the data at all, in which case you will have dropouts. So to address the original question -- Do I need a reclocker if my DAC uses an ASRC?, and a subsequent question -- Do I need expensive cables? My opinion on both is No, because external jitter should not be an issue when using a well designed DAC having an asynchronous rate converter. I stand by my statement that there is a lot of bad information out there regarding this area. I believe you are correct, however I don't think this is bad information: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm This article does make sense, but for me the question remains; just how audible is audible? -- timequest timequest's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25640 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
duke43j;427428 Wrote: Jitter in the digital world is like noise in the analog world; it's everwhere. Every component, including cables, contributes to jitter. You can't avoid it. Of course, if you don't reduce jitter from wherever it comes from (including cables), you will have problems. My point is that if one uses a DAC with an ASRC, jitter from all external sources (including cables) should be largely eliminated. So, cables shouldn't be an issue unless they are so bad that the input device can't read the data at all, in which case you will have dropouts. So to address the original question -- Do I need a reclocker if my DAC uses an ASRC?, and a subsequent question -- Do I need expensive cables? My opinion on both is No, because external jitter should not be an issue when using a well designed DAC having an asynchronous rate converter. I stand by my statement that there is a lot of bad information out there regarding this area. I agree you don't need expensive SPDIF cables - $18 from Blue Jeans for 1.5m is fine :-) Even better than relying on ASRC (and I have one in my TACT) is using the DAC clock to drive the transport. Sadly, this gets into some quite complicated mods...(for me anyway) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Anybody have experience with passive preamps?
duke43j;426351 Wrote: Does anybody have experience using one in their system? I've been using a PS Audio 4.6 in passive mode for about 20 years. I'm happy with it. Soon I'll move to using a single input stereo volume control with balanced input and output cables. The issue of volume controls sounds better at high settings applies to active preamps too. Passive = higher setting = better, other things being equal. You cited impedences as a concern. That is a practical issue to deal with. Trace routing and grounding in the passive preamp can matter too. Quality of the volume pot. matters. Beyond that, there are all the fairy land audiophiles issues. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63739 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Anybody have experience with passive preamps?
Hi Listener. Do you know what the input impedance and gain of your amp is? Also, the output impedance of your preamp? Did you have trouble finding cables that would work OK. It seems that this is more an art than a science, but I would like to find out the parameters I need to stay within to be assured I will be OK with a passive. Hi Phil. Boy, you are really getting into this. I don't have a schematic with my manual. Also nothing on their website. Sorry about that. -- duke43j duke43j's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15911 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63739 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3+ External DAC or Transporter...
Can someone point me to where I can grab the sox application for 24/96 downsampling (along with instructions on how to integrate it)? -- dminches SB3 CI Audio VDA-2 Aragon Soundstage Aragon 8008X3 Vandersteen 3A Sigs dminches's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12606 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3+ External DAC or Transporter...
dminches;427509 Wrote: Can someone point me to where I can grab the sox application for 24/96 downsampling (along with instructions on how to integrate it)? It's bundled with SC as standard. Otherwise, google is your friend :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3+ External DAC or Transporter...
Maybe it works for some, but I went from SC 7.0 to 7.3 and I got no sound whatsoever, except from one radio station in mp3. What does it take to use 7.3? -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3+ External DAC or Transporter...
radish;427518 Wrote: It's bundled with SC as standard. Otherwise, google is your friend :) I am still running SS 6.5.4 due to the lack of SHN support in SC. That's why I was hoping to find an add-in that I can drop in convert.conf, if that's where it should go. -- dminches SB3 CI Audio VDA-2 Aragon Soundstage Aragon 8008X3 Vandersteen 3A Sigs dminches's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12606 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
These are all the reasons why I feel the SqueezeBox Classic and Transporter (analog outs) are the ideal right now. Interface jitter issues are -completely- eliminated, the server software is outstanding, and these products simply sound fantastic. -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
NewBuyer;427564 Wrote: These are all the reasons why I feel the SqueezeBox Classic and Transporter (analog outs) are the ideal right now. Interface jitter issues are -completely- eliminated, the server software is outstanding, and these products simply sound fantastic. Well that's interesting. I was under the impression, from most of what I have read, that the digital out sounded better than the analog outs (all SM devices), especially when fed through an external (i.e.: better) DAC. -- timequest timequest's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25640 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
seanadams;427570 Wrote: I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better DAC than Transporter's. And even if you did, it would have to support word clock mode to even compete on the same playing field (s/pdif is a huge disadvantage). As for SB3, duet et al, it's analog outputs are not going to blow away a high-end DAC, but yes they would make a fine pairing. I love the Transporter, don't get me wrong. Truth is, immediate A/B comparisons on the dealers best system reveled that the Cullen Stage IV PS Audio DL-III clearly sounded better than the TP (DAC connected to TP A/B with/without) - there's no other way to say it, everyone there heard the difference. I want to get the newest PSA DAC, the PWD, which has true I2S inputs (in the way of HDMI connectors). I really want to see if I can mod the Duet receiver with an I2S output. Is that doable? -- timequest timequest's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25640 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Anybody have experience with passive preamps?
duke43j;427475 Wrote: Hi Phil. Boy, you are really getting into this. I don't have a schematic with my manual. Also nothing on their website. Sorry about that. I looked too - nothing on the web. Still, with only 4 valves it can't be that complex. I used to repair valve gear (30 years ago) - it was my first proper job! I suppose trying to diagnose an issue like the one you appear to have is a mental challenge for me :-) Armed with a signal generator, basic scope and multimeter, most valve amp faults can be pinned down in about 30 mins. In most valve pre-amps the only expensive components are the mains transformer(s), the valves and the pots switches. Aside from these, a repair is usually going to be less than $20 in parts. One last question: has your pre-amp ALWAYS been like this since you have owned it? Regards Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63739 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
timequest;427581 Wrote: I really want to see if I can mod the Duet receiver with an I2S output. Is that doable? Not much you need to mod, the signals are there. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why Reclock If Using Low Jitter DAC
timequest;427581 Wrote: I love the Transporter, don't get me wrong. Truth is, immediate A/B comparisons on the dealers best system reveled that the Cullen Stage IV PS Audio DL-III clearly sounded better than the TP (DAC connected to TP A/B with/without) - there's no other way to say it, everyone there heard the difference. I want to get the newest PSA DAC, the PWD, which has true I2S inputs (in the way of HDMI connectors). I really want to see if I can mod the Duet receiver with an I2S output. Is that doable? Hmmm... so how carefully was this test done? - were the outputs of the TP and DAC level matched to within 0.5dB? If not, the test is highly suspect. Can you describe why you felt the DAC was better? There are two fundamental differences in play... the digital/jitter aspect where TP has a theoretically much better implementation than anything using SPDIF...and the final analogue circuitry where component choices and circuit design will voice the sound differently in the two products. The DAC chip itself is involved in both aspects as are the power supply arrangements. IMHO you should look for a DAC with word-clock out and try that with the duet(suitably modded). This will outperform using i2s into a DAC. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=63796 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
