[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
So another good thread goes down the drains thanks to hijackers ... :( -- slimkid slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
How about used Bryston 2B-LP? Can be had for around $500 (and up!), very versatile and rugged. Some may say the sound is too cold and analytical, but then again, some may like that. I'm running a pair (Bi-Amped, Bi-Wired) for my frontend, and one for my rear channels. Cheers! Allan -- alZmtbr alZmtbr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8773 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
The bryston would be a good bet. Looking at used amps, I'd look at bryston, mccormack, and older classe amps. All good quality and built like tanks. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Skunk;171811 Wrote: Your choice of the number 180 makes me wonder if you wrote the article :-) Interesting site, though slightly overzealous imho. I swear it wasn't me ;-)! Peter Aczel has been around forever, or at least much longer than I have. You're right, he is overzealous; years of failing utterly to convince the deluded must wear on your psyche. But that amp really is an amazing deal: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Behringer+A500hl=enlr=client=firefox-arls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialhs=yKElmode=onlinescoring=p Lowest price listed is actually $160, although I don't know about the website. I'm thinking of building a pair of quad-amped speakers, and one option I have in mind is four of those. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
mmg_fan;171769 Wrote: and even little know chinese amps like the dussan. I think the Dussun DS99 integrated amp, at $500, is one of the best values out there. Great sounding amp with lots of power -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
slimkid;171782 Wrote: I never heard it, but there's Jolida amp with 100w/ch, with tube preamp and SS amp, which might be an interesting choice too.I have it. I like it, but if you're thinking 200 W, our tastes are enough different that my experience is probably irrelevant. -- tom permutt tom permutt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1893 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;171773 Wrote: You might check this one, which I've seen new for $180: http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG reviewed here: http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=20blogId=1 I'm very interested in this amp, but only if it can be re-trimmed to get rid of the crossover distortion. The reason the relative distortion levels go down with increasing power (as can be seen at theaudiocritic) is that there is old fashined, ugly, crossover distortion present. This is seen very clearly in Hi-fi World's review of the A500. It does seem like a fantastic bargain, however -and if it can be modified a bit it will be an even better bargain! -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Well, here is a fascinating site where they couldn't pick the A500 out of a blind study. Not conclusive (I can't figure out the experimental methodology because I don't read spanish) but certainly interesting. I wish I could read spanish as the concept of groups getting together for blind study of gear fascinates me. http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Eric Carroll;171987 Wrote: Well, here is a fascinating site where they couldn't pick the A500 out of a blind study. Not conclusive (I can't figure out the experimental methodology because I don't read spanish) but certainly interesting. I wish I could read spanish as the concept of groups getting together for blind study of gear fascinates me. http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm If you listen at high volume the crossover distortion will be masked. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
The distortion is nearly 70dB down at a few watts (the red curve is irrelevant as it's dominated by harmonics above 20 kHz which are inaudible anyway). I doubt anyone could pick that out in a blind test, especially when you look at figure 5 in the audiocritic review - about 90% of the harmonic distortion is due to the second harmonic. Remember, people (at least in some cases) fail to distinguish between tube amps and SS in blind tests, and tube amps typically have somewhere around *ten thousand to a hundred thousand* times more distortion than this one. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172006 Wrote: The distortion is nearly 70dB down at a few watts (the red curve is irrelevant as it's dominated by harmonics above 20 kHz which are inaudible anyway). I doubt anyone could pick that out in a blind test, especially when you look at figure 5 in the audiocritic review - about 90% of the harmonic distortion is due to the second harmonic. Remember, people (at least in some cases) fail to distinguish between tube amps and SS in blind tests, and tube amps typically have somewhere around *ten thousand to a hundred thousand* times more distortion than this one. Your figures about tube amps are just plain wrong. How did you arrive at them? Also, it is the nature of the distortion that decides if it is pleasant or awful, not just the level. A couple of watts are in fact quite a lot. If listening at low levels you might only use 1/10 of a watt or less. In such situations any crossover distortion will suddenly be very dominant. THD should be measured at very low levels to unveil this kind of problem, but crossover distortion is so 70's that people just don't even look for it much any more (but distortion getting lower with increasing power should have triggered alarm bells). -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172011 Wrote: Your figures about tube amps are just plain wrong. How did you arrive at them? A couple of watts are in fact quite a lot. If listening at low levels you might only use 1/10 of a watt or less. In such situations any crossover distortion will suddenly be very dominant. THD should be measured at very low levels to unveil this kind of problem, but crossover distortion is so 70's that people just don't even look for it much any more (but distortion getting lower with increasing power should have triggered alarm bells). Sorry - these are amplitude measurements, not power? In that case take the square root of what I said. Picking a tube amp at random: http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/306yamamoto/index3.html you see that the distortion into 8 Ohms at .1W is .5%, and 3% at 1W. Compare that to the A500, which is .09% at .1W, and around .05% at a watt. So it's better by a factor of 5 even at very low power, and by more than a factor of 50 at one watt. That's not particularly good for a SS amp, I agree, but it's still much smaller than is typical for tubes - and of course the amp is capable of much, much higher power output. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172020 Wrote: Sorry - these are amplitude measurements, not power? In that case take the square root of what I said. Picking a tube amp at random: http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/306yamamoto/index3.html you see that the distortion into 8 Ohms at .1W is .5%, and 3% at 1W. Compare that to the A500, which is .09% at .1W, and around .05% at a watt. So it's better by a factor of 5 even at very low power, and by more than a factor of 50 at one watt. That's not particularly good for a SS amp, I agree, but it's still much smaller than is typical for tubes - and of course the amp is capable of much, much higher power output. EDIT - why is it the amplitude of the harmonic distortion that's plotted here? Isn't the power a more relevant statistic for what we hear? If so, my original figures are more or less correct, at least at a few watts. I'm not really up for a full explanation/investigation. Let's just say that a tube amp that is rated in the 10s of watts, being driven into soft-limiting is going to generate loads of distortion. It is meaningless to compare distortion figures at similar power levels between such totally different designs since the tube amp would be used with extremely sensitive speakers. I'm sure the Behringer would sound pretty awful playing into such sensitive speakers, wheras the tube amp would sound very nice indeed as there is no increased distortion for low level signals. (Also realise that if 1/10 of a watt is used, a lot of the signal will be much further down yet in level. How would that sound with 70's style transistor radio type crossover distortion?) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172026 Wrote: I'm not really up for a full explanation/investigation. Let's just say that a tube amp that is rated in the 10s of watts, being driven into soft-limiting is going to generate loads of distortion. It is meaningless to compare distortion figures at similar power levels between such totally different designs since the tube amp would be used with extremely sensitive speakers. I'm sure the Behringer would sound pretty awful playing into such sensitive speakers, wheras the tube amp would sound very nice indeed as there is no increased distortion for low level signals. (Also realise that if 1/10 of a watt is used, a lot of the signal will be much further down yet in level. How would that sound with 70's style transistor radio type crossover distortion?) My question was just why amplitude and not power - I would guess that human perception of distortion scales more closely with the power than with the amplitude, but perhaps that's wrong. I don't understand what you're saying in your post. That tube amp has 5 times more distortion amplitude (-45dB), or 25 times more distortion power, at 1/10 of a watt. Extrapolating the A500 distortion (which is quite linear on the log-log plot from a few watts down) to lower power, to get to -45dB you'd have to go down another three orders of magnitude. So at .0001 W the two distortions would be comparable, assuming the tube amp curve stays flat. I doubt even the most sensitive speakers are going to make much noise at that level. Therefore into any speakers the A500 has significantly lower distortion, so I don't see why you think it would sound bad. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172034 Wrote: I see how you are thinking. However, you can't extrapolate anything down in level when it comes to crossover distortion. It's a discontinuity in the transfer curve which is of equal size regardless of the signal level. It doesn't scale with the signal. Put a low enough signal in there and it will be 100% distortion. (Well, depending on exactly how the discontinuity looks.) I hope that made it clearer? Actually you're wrong - that's precisely the case in which my extrapoloation is correct. Suppose the measured amplifier signal is A = A0 + N, where A0 is the ideal (non-distorted) signal, and N is some componenent which doesn't scale with A0. What's plotted is the log of the ratio of the distortion component to the ideal: log((A-A0)/A0) = log(N/A0) = log(N) - log(A0). So the distortion is linear in log(A0), which is indeed what the graph shows, and is exactly what I assumed above. Now that I think about it, you stated before that this was evidence of crossover distortion - actually, it's simply evidence that there's a component to the THD+N which is independent of the power. That is always the case - even with the amp switched off you'll measure some voltage across the outputs due to random noise. On the other hand the FT shows most of the noise is from harmonics, so I suppose that indicates it's related to the signal. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172039 Wrote: Actually you're wrong - that's precisely the case in which my extrapolation is correct. Suppose the measured amplifier signal is A = A0 + N, where A0 is the ideal (non-distorted) signal, and N is some componenent which doesn't scale with A0. What's plotted is the log of the ratio of the distortion component to the ideal: log((A-A0)/A0) = log(N/A0) = log(N) - log(A0). So the distortion is linear in log(A0), which is indeed what the graph shows, and is exactly what I assumed above. Now that I think about it, you stated before that this was evidence of crossover distortion - actually, it's simply evidence that there's a component to the THD+N which is independent of the power. That is always the case - even with the amp switched off you'll measure some voltage across the outputs due to random noise. On the other hand the FT shows most of the noise is from harmonics, so I suppose that indicates it's related to the signal. I don't know enough about the spectrum of crossover noise to say whether it looks consistent with that or not. OK, I misread your earlier post. Then we both agree that Fig 4 at http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=20blogId=1 actually indicated a constant level signal related distortion mechanism? I.e a fixed size discontinuity in the transfer curve. Yet, this is ignored, and the FFT is presented at maximum power, showing the distortion is almost completely dominated by the second harmonic, which is basically harmless.. This is a bit silly, as no-one will listen at max power much of the time. It does make sense, however, if one assumes good behaviour for small signals, around the crossover point. Hence my earlier remarks about reviwers not expecting 1970's style distortion. I believe the Behringer will sound very good in damped large rooms with relatively inefficient speakers (a typical home theater setting in other words). In a small less damped room with efficient speakers, however, I suspect small signal distortion will be too high to be pleasant. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Getting back on topic, there are a lot of components of pro amps at AVS Forum. Pro amps are available in music stores, so no big markup. They are very robust, quite well protected and can power low impedance speakers. Crown and QSC seem to be favorites. While not many audiophiles use them, when you go see a performer live, these are the kinds of amps that are used. Obviously, the larger the venue, the larger the amp, but still. Yes, they don't have the audiophile cred, so be prepared to see them bashed in 3, 2, 1... -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Mark Lanctot;172055 Wrote: Getting back on topic, there are a lot of components of pro amps at AVS Forum. Pro amps are available in music stores, so no big markup. They are very robust, quite well protected and can power low impedance speakers. Crown and QSC seem to be favorites. While not many audiophiles use them, when you go see a performer live, these are the kinds of amps that are used. Obviously, the larger the venue, the larger the amp, but still. Yes, they don't have the audiophile cred, so be prepared to see them bashed in 3, 2, 1... Yeah, and do you believe such amps are used in the 0.1 Watt range very often? Sound reinforcement and the like is not comparable to audio reproduction in the home. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172047 Wrote: OK, I misread your earlier post. Then we both agree that Fig 4 at http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=20blogId=1 actually indicated a constant level signal related distortion mechanism? I.e a fixed size discontinuity in the transfer curve. On closer examination it's a bit more complicated. Model the measured response as A = A0 + N(A0)^n, where N is some constant. The case considered above was n=0. However for any n this will look linear on that plot, with a slope that depends on n (and the linear extrapolation I used above will be valid). Looking at the plot for 20Hz and 1kHz, n=.5 up to maybe 5W, and then n=1 from then on. For 20 kHz n=0 all the way up to 50W, and then 1 from then on. So in other words for 20Hz and 1kHz the measured signal in the low power regime matches well with A = A0 + N A0^.5 - the distortion grows like the square root of the amplitude - it's NOT constant. Any idea what that means? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172056 Wrote: Yeah, and do you believe such amps are used in the 0.1 Watt range very often? Sound reinforcement and the like is not comparable to audio reproduction in the home. Actually my response was directed to the OP, but it looks like we're not interested in answering his question anymore. But what was it I said about them being bashed? I thought I was being facetious, but it did really happen in about 3 seconds. Hmm. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Mark Lanctot;172058 Wrote: Actually my response was directed to the OP, but it looks like we're not interested in answering his question anymore. But what was it I said about them being bashed? I thought I was being facetious, but it did really happen in about 3 seconds. Hmm. I thought you read the later posts and just wanted to chime in? Certainly looked that way to me. Sure, one could buy a PA-amp and hope it will sound nice. It depends on many factors if it will or won't. Ambient noise in the listening room, just to mention one. (Unlikely to be very low in a PA situation.) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172061 Wrote: I thought you read the later posts and just wanted to chime in? Certainly looked that way to me. No, I'm actually behind my reading considerably. I should have quoted the OP's first post, sorry. Fixed now. Sure, one could buy a PA-amp and hope it will sound nice. It depends on many factors if it will or won't. Ambient noise in the listening room, just to mention one. (Unlikely to be very low in a PA situation.) I will grant you that some of these amps use fan-cooled heatsinks. Yes, that is a big issue in a typical listening room, but there are ways around it. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172057 Wrote: On closer examination it's a bit more complicated. Model the measured response as A = A0 + N(A0)^n, where N is some constant. The case considered above was n=0. However for any n this will look linear on that plot, with a slope that depends on n (and the linear extrapolation I used above will be valid). Looking at the plot for 20Hz and 1kHz, n=.5 up to maybe 5W, and then n=1 from then on. For 20 kHz n=0 all the way up to 50W, and then 1 from then on. So in other words for 20Hz and 1kHz the measured signal in the low power regime matches well with A = A0 + N A0^.5 - the distortion grows like the square root of the amplitude - it's NOT constant. Any idea what that means? Eh.. I'm sure you are about to tell me? Anyway, the distortion figures will be a combination of crossover distortion (dominant for very small signals) and other non-linearities. The curve doesn't represent a single distortion mechanism. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Mark Lanctot;172063 Wrote: No, I'm actually behind my reading considerably. I should have quoted the OP's first post, sorry. Fixed now. I will grant you that some of these amps use fan-cooled heatsinks. Yes, that is a big issue in a typical listening room, but there are ways around it. I was thinking more about where on the amp's transfer curve most of the time will be spent in the different environments. If P/A amps are still being designed with no regard for crossover distortion, then that clearly will be a big factor. (Granted, the Behringer could just be an exception.) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172065 Wrote: Eh.. I'm sure you are about to tell me? Anyway, the distortion figures will be a combination of crossover distortion (dominant for very small signals) and other non-linearities. The curve doesn't represent a single distortion mechanism. Actually I have no idea - it was a question! I agree it's not a single mechanism, although it fits a power law so well (and with nice powers) that I suspect there's a simple explanation. In any case the initial conclusion is supported - this amp has much less distortion, at all audible levels, than a typical tube amp. While that may not be saying much, it does indicate that it's unlikely to sound unpleasant at any listening level. This is further supported by the fact that the reviewer listened to it and stated it sounded the same as any other well-behaved amp; I'm sure he tried turning down the volume, and he has one of the best and most revealing speaker systems in the world. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172070 Wrote: Actually I have no idea - it was a question! I agree it's not a single mechanism, although it fits a power law so well (and with nice powers) that I suspect there's a simple explanation. In any case the initial conclusion is supported - this amp has much less distortion, at all audible levels, than a typical tube amp. While that may not be saying much, it does indicate that it's unlikely to sound unpleasant at any listening level. This is further supported by the fact that the reviewer listened to it and stated it sounded the same as any other well-behaved amp; I'm sure he tried turning down the volume, and he has one of the best and most revealing speaker systems in the world. I can't agree with your conclusions. We simply don't know what the curve would have looked like in the sub 1W range. Of course, it is entirely possible the measured crossover distortion in Hi-fi World's test was due to a one-off production problem, and that normally the amps are properly biased. When it comes to low level this can mean anything! In an A/C:ed large room with carpets etc it might still require quite a few watts, wheras in my tiny UK-sized living room with wooden floor and not much ambient noise it could mean 1/10 or less of that power. I got curious now so will measure output power as I'm listening right now with my son sleeping upstairs. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Seems I have about +/-0.5 volts peek-to-peek on the outputs. And even then my volume is a bit high to overcome the noise of the laptop's fan. sqr(U)/R gives 0.5^2 / 8 = 0.031 Watts peek, or 0.022 Watts RMS. I believe my KSA-50S switches to its first higher bias level at about 0.7 Watts, and I can play very loud (even with daytime references) without this ever happening. So it is clearly a mistake not to measure an amp's performance below 1W. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172085 Wrote: I can't agree with your conclusions. We simply don't know what the curve would have looked like in the sub 1W range. Of course, it is entirely possible the measured crossover distortion in Hi-fi World's test was due to a one-off production problem, and that normally the amps are properly biased. When it comes to low level this can mean anything! In an A/C:ed large room with carpets etc it might still require quite a few watts, wheras in my tiny UK-sized living room with wooden floor and not much ambient noise it could mean 1/10 or less of that power. I got curious now so will measure output power as I'm listening right now with my son sleeping upstairs. What was the result? In figure 3 (which is for an 8 ohm load) the THD+N is measured down to .1 W. It's true that the curve might change below that - there's no way to know, of course. But .1 W is already a pretty low level, and we saw that if the (very linear) behavior continues, the distortion will be lower than the tube all the way down to .0001 W, which I'm pretty sure is inaudible even for sensitive speakers. Anyway, getting vaguely back on topic, if you're looking for the absolute lowest distortion and best build quality this amp isn't for you. But I very much doubt you'll hear those differences, and for $170 or so it's pretty hard to beat. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172104 Wrote: What was the result? In figure 3 (which is for an 8 ohm load) the THD+N is measured down to .1 W. It's true that the curve might change below that - there's no way to know, of course. But .1 W is already a pretty low level, and we saw that if the (very linear) behavior continues, the distortion will be lower than the tube all the way down to .0001 W, which I'm pretty sure is inaudible even for sensitive speakers. Anyway, getting vaguely back on topic, if you're looking for the absolute lowest distortion and best build quality this amp isn't for you. But I very much doubt you'll hear those differences, and for $170 or so it's pretty hard to beat. See my last post. I don't think a large fixed low level non-linearity is going to follow your extrapolation. I think it will massively distort low level signals. It's a know fact that crossover distortion sounds horrible. Please note that my measurements of the power output were from the PEAKs! I.e bass sounds and drums. Voices (especially backup singers) are way below even that. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P.S: I think it is on topic to point out the possible fallacies of getting P/A-style amplifiers for home use. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172106 Wrote: See my last post. I don't think a large fixed low level non-linearity is going to follow your extrapolation. I think it will massively distort low level signals. It's a know fact that crossover distortion sounds horrible. Please note that my measurements of the power output were from the PEAKs! I.e bass sounds and drums. Voices (especially backup singers) are way below even that. OK, interesting. Re: the A500, I don't have access to the other review, but from the audiocritic data there's no reason to think this is crossover distortion - it doesn't scale the way you say it should - and it's linear over nearly two orders of magnitude in power, so the best prediction is it remains so. Even if your crossover behavior - no scaling with power - takes over right at .1W, you'd still need to go down to about .005W to equal the tube amp distortion, which is still a factor of 5 down from your listening level. Anyway I don't think we're going to convince each other at this point :-) - but thanks for the interesting discussion. FYI my speakers at barely audible level are around .02 VRMS, so you're right, that is very low. Actually they don't sound very good at that level either - no midrange. Not sure if that's due to nonlinearities in the speakers, amp, room, Inguz RC, or my ears though. You have to remember there's a psychoacoustic scaling with level - the same signal reduced in amplitude sounds different, not just quieter, because our sound percetion isn't linear. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172110 Wrote: OK, interesting. Re: the A500, I don't have access to the other review, but from the audiocritic data there's no reason to think this is crossover distortion - it doesn't scale the way you say it should - and it's linear over nearly two orders of magnitude in power, so the best prediction is it remains so. Even if your crossover behavior - no scaling with power - takes over right at .1W, you'd still need to go down to about .005W to equal the tube amp distortion, which is still a factor of 5 down from your listening level. Anyway I don't think we're going to convince each other at this point :-) - but thanks for the interesting discussion. FYI my speakers at barely audible level are around .02 VRMS, so you're right, that is very low. Actually they don't sound very good at that level either - no midrange. Not sure if that's due to nonlinearities in the speakers, amp, room, Inguz RC, or my ears though. You have to remember there's a psychoacoustic scaling with level - the same signal reduced in amplitude sounds different, not just quieter, because our perception of sound isn't linear. I'm not sure about 0.02 Volts RMS into mine.. I had about 0.5 volts peek-to-peek. But if you don't get much mid-range at low levels it sounds like some non-linearity in the mid-driver's suspension. A hysteris-effect. My Yams keep amazingly consistent sound when lowering listening levels. Yeah, we are not getting much further with guesswork. My point was just that something 60-70 dB below maximum listening level may well spoil low level listening. (I'm listening right at the cut-off limit of the SB3's built in volume control, which I believe is 50dB below the max level. In addition I dialed in another 5 dB attenuation in the preamp level.) Thanks for the discussion. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;172110 Wrote: I don't have access to the other review, but from the audiocritic data there's no reason to think this is crossover distortion - it doesn't scale the way you say it should ... P.S: If you'd have seen the screen-shot of the sine wave you'd say there was crossover distortion! It looks gross! But, I guess it could be a bad sample. I don't even want to try to relate this to tube stuff, as I don't know much about tube amps. (Surely they must vary greatly according to operating mode and implementation, though..) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
P Floding;172109 Wrote: P.S: I think it is on topic to point out the possible fallacies of getting P/A-style amplifiers for home use. Yes, it is. But you've clearly listened to a lot of equipment. I would guess that the OP would get a lot more benefit from you recommending something else. The rest of the discussion is perfectly valid, but might be better continued in its own thread. This is not meant to be a snotty post, so please don't get too angry with me. --Michael -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
There are _lots_ of really good used amps selling in the 500-1000 range. Even if opaqueice is right about the behringer amp, if it's anything like the other behringer equipment I've seen, it's crapshoot. I've seem some behringer stuff that was great, and some that was awful. I will say in their defense that when a coworker bought a 3k mixing board from them that was defective, it was replaced immediately, no questions asked. There was another thread on this very topic in which I gave some recommendations. If you search for my name and a similar topic, you will find it. In all truth, the only quibble I have with opaqueice is about the length of the useful life of the thing. regards, Michael -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Build quality isn't great - I went to look at one, although I wasn't able to listen to it. Adequate, but not excellent. That's what you get for $170. I use a modified version of optimized.drc. The improvement is dramatic, and easily measurable. I'm happy to discuss that more in another thread if someone starts one. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
On the question of the audibility of differences between amps, this is a thoughtful and thorough article from Stereo Review (which I hadn't seen before). The results are unsurprising. http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
You might check this one, which I've seen new for $180: http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG reviewed here: http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=20blogId=1 -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
Hi, since you have MMGs, they will somewhat limit you in your choices. You need an amp that is stable at 4 ohm and is capable of delivering high current and, at least, 50 W/ch. Why not stay with NAD, it's proven robust. Nad 352 with 80w/ch or Nad 372 with 120W/ch (both at 8 Ohms ,and that almost doubles at 4 Ohms) are within your price range, new or used, or their 'amp only' versions - I don't remember model numbers right now. I never heard it, but there's Jolida amp with 100w/ch, with tube preamp and SS amp, which might be an interesting choice too. In my experience, Rotel SS amps are too bright with Magnepans. Marantz PM-7200 is in the price range, but I don't think it's a good match to MMGs. Cambridge Azur 640A might be worth trying also. -- slimkid slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)
opaqueice;171773 Wrote: You might check this one, which I've seen new for $180: Your choice of the number 180 makes me wonder if you wrote the article :-) Interesting site, though slightly overzealous imho. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31843 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
