Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Thanks, I have some 24bit/96kHz music, but I can not really hear any difference between songs where I have both versions. So I wonder if really 24bit/96kHz arrives at the Transporter. Flac nativ is set - so it should be ok?. Is there maybe a log to enable to see if sox is used? christian -- Schindler Schindler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Schindler;498189 Wrote: Thanks, I have some 24bit/96kHz music, but I can not really hear any difference between songs where I have both versions. So I wonder if really 24bit/96kHz arrives at the Transporter. Flac nativ is set - so it should be ok?. Is there maybe a log to enable to see if sox is used? christian Are you running Windows? if so you can open Task Manager and see if sox.exe is running while a 24/96 track is playing. It should not be... Do you have any other SB's running at the same time as the Transporter? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
You can also try the following: Now Playing, right arrow, other Information, Bitrate. Their should be written something much bigger than 1.000 kb/s with 24/96. If it is below 1.000 and you read Converted to it is resampled. -- Aurumer Aurumer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31601 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
christian,using 24/96 khz Flac files here i can clearly tell there is a BIG difference in sound quality from CD Red Book standard files. what's the rest of your system?. dennis Schindler;498189 Wrote: Thanks, I have some 24bit/96kHz music, but I can not really hear any difference between songs where I have both versions. So I wonder if really 24bit/96kHz arrives at the Transporter. Flac nativ is set - so it should be ok?. Is there maybe a log to enable to see if sox is used? christian -- dennis55 Slim Devices/Logitech Transporter Bonnec Audiosysteme Timpano Linn Products Akurate C4200 Totem Acoustics Forest SqueezeBox Radio Duet Controller Linn LP12/Cirkus/Ekos2/Dynavector DV17D2/Linn Linto/Linn Lingo1 last.fm/dennis55 dennis55's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8884 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Phil Leigh;498193 Wrote: Do you have any other SB's running at the same time as the Transporter? I've noticed that if I play 24/96 material on Transporter only, it is not downsampled. If my Transporter and Duet or Boom are playing in sync, they all appear to me to be downsampled (bitrate wise). I made this observation when I have clicked on more info during playback of 24/96 material. -- Squeezed_Rotel John M SqueezeCenter 7.3.3 running on HP MediaSmart LX195 WHS. Transporter, Duet Boom connected through Linksys WRT54gs router. Using an IPod Touch with Ipeng for a controller. For Critical Listening =Transporter = Rotel RC1070 preamp = Rotel RB1080 2 channel amp = Bowers Wilkins 805 Speakers. Squeezed_Rotel's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Yes, this is right. The bitrate in synced mode depends on the abilities of the weaked part, e.g. the not Transporter units. You can only listen to 24/96 if TP plays alone and unsynced. -- Aurumer Aurumer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31601 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Squeezed_Rotel;498263 Wrote: I've noticed that if I play 24/96 material on Transporter only, it is not downsampled. If my Transporter and Duet or Boom are playing in sync, they all appear to me to be downsampled (bitrate wise). I made this observation when I have clicked on more info during playback of 24/96 material. Sync'd Players use a single stream, so that means all sync'd player resolutions are that of the highest format playable on the least enabled player. So if any player needs SoX to play a 24/96 file, all sync'd players get the down sampled 24/48 stream whether they can play 24/96 native or not. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: Second Boom Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
My system is: Sanders Soundsystems gear... ESL 10b speaker ESL amp (ESL pannels) Magtech amp (bass) Behringer DCX2496 DAC/Digital Crossover Here some pictures, speaker placement it slight different now.. http://picasaweb.google.ch/SchindlerKonolfingen/Speaker?feat=directlink Both CD and 24/96 sound great, but no big difference. Will do the test with taskmanager in windows to see if sox is running. Christian -- Schindler Schindler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Schindler;498309 Wrote: My system is: Both CD and 24/96 sound great, but no big difference. Don´t let you fool by some posts in some forums, sadly including this that there is a HUGE difference and out of the sudden your system sounds double as beautiful cause of 24bit. If done correctly the 16bit file shouldn´t dound very different. Some serious listeners find to hear tiny improvemebts here and there but nothing that jumps upon one. I think to remember someone checked many really good recordings and at best he found the best recordings to top out using ~14bits for real. Of cause sampling rate and other things may come in play but not as much as the hype of some people may it to be. -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Schindler;498309 Wrote: My system is: Sanders Soundsystems gear... ESL 10b speaker ESL amp (ESL pannels) Magtech amp (bass) Behringer DCX2496 DAC/Digital Crossover Here some pictures, speaker placement it slight different now.. http://picasaweb.google.ch/SchindlerKonolfingen/Speaker?feat=directlink Both CD and 24/96 sound great, but no big difference. Will do the test with taskmanager in windows to see if sox is running. Christian Nice pictures and even nicer system setup. Is the cat climbing tree an attempt to keep kitty off the ESLs? 24/96 will not make up for a poorly engineered recording. But on a great engineered recording that was mastered at the highest level possible then formated to 24/96 there should be slight differences on the better systems that can take advantage of good engineering and high rates. Again nothing that is earth shattering or that would cause ones mouth to drop open in disbelieve to the difference. One might notice that the bass is slightly different and the top end is clearer with what one might call some fuzz/noise removed (enlightened without hiss). Highs seem to be something that I pick right up on on the higher res stuff. They seem to stand out slightly more, are cleaner, clearer, and have more persistence (shimmer) to them. YMMV. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: Second Boom Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
I don´t want to argue to much about sound, cause i did no intensive testing to back anything up. I once played intensively with a 24/96 file when my Transporter was new. Back then i used Naoki Shibatas SSRC cause it was the only easy to use free resampler. Today with a resampler like sox around it may be even less obvious. But one thing i can confirm what iphone says. The highs really seem to loose some fine detail when going from a high sampling rate to 44.1kHz. To me it sounded a tiny bit harder, loosing some micro information but not really different. My magnetostatic tweeters are pretty revealing there. On some recordings that may lead to a better sound/imaging. My bass isn´t that good in my room so there i can´t comment much. Where i never was able to hear any difference was on the HDCDs with peak extension i decoded to 20bit and dithered back to 16. So no resampling involved. Thats why i am that sceptic about the Beatles remaster box in 24/44.1 flac sounds any better as the CDs. -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Schindler;497393 Wrote: Hello, how can I be sure that the Transporter gets 24bit/96kHz Flac music? Not something downsampled? Thanks. Christian You can see the sampling rates in the track additional info. I use a duet controller and can display directly on the remote. -- matka George Transporter-Pathos Logos-Triangle Celius Fedora Core linux matka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34878 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Try downloading a track recorded in 24bit/96kHz from a site such as https://www.hdtracks.com/ -- norderney Transporter (Black) - Arcam A85 Amp - BW CDM1NT Speakers - Yamaha CDRHD1500 Recorder norderney's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=378 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Schindler;497393 Wrote: Hello, how can I be sure that the Transporter gets 24bit/96kHz Flac music? Not something downsampled? Thanks. Christian From the WebUI I would believe. I believe one goes to Settings and make sure that FLAC Native is check. The Transporter doesn't need SoX from SBS to play 24/96 files so it probably plays them Native unless you have options set to force something other then expected behavior. My Transporter plays them Native at 24/96. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: Second Boom Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Last autumn I downloaded several songs from 2Ls free high-res samplers, in order to satisfy my curiosity about these formats (http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html). I was able to stream both 24/48 and 24/96 (specifically the W.A.Mozart: Violin concerto in D major (KV 218) - Allegro Marianne Thorsen / TrondheimSolistene / Øyvind Gimse) to my Receiver, which then runs into a Benchmark DAC1. Both of these resolutions were audible through my stereo. After reading this thread and others on a Norwegian hifi-forum, I revisited these tracks. The Controller now tells me that there is a Problem: Cannot play song (or something to that effect; I have Norwegian as my language setting so I don't know exactly what the original English message is). Now, I am 100% certain that I was able to play 24/96 a few months ago. Why is this not possible now? What has changed in the intermittent software upgrades (nothing else at all hs been changed in my setup)? -- mags65 mags65's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19085 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
mags65;382079 Wrote: Last autumn I downloaded several songs from 2Ls free high-res samplers, in order to satisfy my curiosity about these formats (http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html). I was able to stream both 24/48 FLAC and 24/96 FLAC (specifically the W.A.Mozart: Violin concerto in D major (KV 218) - Allegro Marianne Thorsen / TrondheimSolistene / Øyvind Gimse) to my Receiver, which then runs into a Benchmark DAC1. Both of these resolutions were audible through my stereo. After reading this thread and others on a Norwegian hifi-forum, I revisited these tracks. The Controller now tells me that there is a Problem: Cannot play song (or something to that effect; I have Norwegian as my language setting so I don't know exactly what the original English message is). Now, I am 100% certain that I was able to play 24/96 FLAC over the Receiver a few months ago. Why is this not possible now? What has changed in the intermittent software upgrades (nothing else at all hs been changed in my setup)? which version of SqueezeCenter are you using? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
I'm fully updated at 7.3.1 - unless there's a new one after that? -- mags65 mags65's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19085 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
mags65;382084 Wrote: I'm fully updated at 7.3.1 - unless there's a new one after that? oh - yes! prior to 7.3.2, 96kHz playback was achieved by dropping alternate samples to get back to 48Khz that the receiver/sb can handle. This is a very crude and audibly bad way of doing things. The means that (before 7.3.2) that a 24/96 file should sound worse than its 24/48 equivalent! In 7.3.2, a new on-the-fly transcoding method for FLAC was introduced, using SOX to correctly downsample to 48kHz. now 24/48 and 24/96 sound identical. I think that in 7.3.1, they took away the drop alternate sample method and transcoded 24/96 via lame to 320bps MP3! (this is probably why your files don't play - you need to install LAME.EXE). However - don't do this! Go to 7.3.2 instead and avoid turning high bitrate flacs into MP3! regards Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Ok! Thanks for clearing this up for me, Phil. I guess I'll stick at the 24/48 then - to the extent that I use these formats. It really bugs me that as a Norwegian I'm not allowed to buy high-res downloads from the US - and the likes of 2L and Linn really don't have that much to satisfy my musical tastes. Oh, well... -- mags65 mags65's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19085 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
mags65;382087 Wrote: Ok! Thanks for clearing this up for me, Phil. I guess I'll stick at the 24/48 then - to the extent that I use these formats. It really bugs me that as a Norwegian I'm not allowed to buy high-res downloads from the US - and the likes of 2L and Linn really don't have that much to satisfy my musical tastes. Oh, well... I know about the US issue(being in the UK myself!) - although I am fond of some of the Linn Jazz stuff. By the way, I find that 24/48 is identical to 24/96 (on slim AND non-slim gear). -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
...I have to agree. The old adage your system is only as good as the weakest link still holds, and as we all have high quality equipment/cables the need for the source, the original mastering, to be better is probably more important than most of the other things we spend our time worrying about (i.e. 16/44.1 v 24/96 etc.). If the mastering is poor, then no amount of of equipment will make it sound perfect. I think the 24/48, 24/96 issue is just progress. I have listened to a dem on a transporter comparing CD 16/44.1 v 24bit sources of the same material and it is better... or was it just different...?! But progress is progress and that just means that as Internet download speeds improve and storage get cheaper, then recording studios will start making 24/96 the defacto, and that will one day mean that everyone will end up needing to upgrade their equipment (including everyone with SB2 or SB3!) which will in turn drive the future audio market. If this didn't happen we'd all get bored!! ;o) (but if they make the cost of a 24/96 even 10% more than a 16/44.1 then I for one won't buy it -- it isn't that much better). Technically, 24/96 is *different* to 16/44.1 -- that can be proved (one file is 20Mb and the other one is 80Mb)!!! Whether you can hear the difference, and whether it is better, is just down to your ears... (just hope all that extra HF doesn't upset pets!) -- swarduk swarduk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20371 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
darrenyeats;378893 Wrote: Themis, 24/96? You're on my side of the line now. Welcome to the lower rez side. :) http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=378850postcount=1 Darren PS: Of course I respect everyone's right to an opinion. Just a bit of fun! In my family, everybody (wifechildren) prefers analog sound to digital on the same recording. Blind and systematically. I haven't personally done any serious comparisons between 24/96 and 16/44.1/48, but I know that I prefer the SACD sound to the redbook one. In fact, I never liked the D/A PCM sound, although D/A converters are slowly getting better with time (or perhaps it's me who is getting slowly used to it). However, what I meant, is that 24/96 will be soon a de facto download format. Time will tell what comes next. ;) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
darrenyeats;379004 Wrote: However, that doesn't mean one format is better than another. One confounding factor in comparing analogue to digital is the mastering, you would need a good ADC/DAC and/or analogue recording equipment to untangle that. You're probably right. I have several recent (digital) recordings that sound perfect. It's probably not a problem of format, but more a problem of mastering, as you say (and as some sound engineers point out too). -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Themis, 24/96? You're on my side of the line now. Welcome to the lower rez side. :) http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=378850postcount=1 Alfafa;378850 Wrote: but I would prefer that it supported as there is already dvd-audio,sacd(approximately) and bd-audio on the way which uses 24bit/192Khz/2ch. snip Or else I think I will just wait until a Transporter 2 is presented and hope that it includes this high samplerate Darren PS: Of course I respect everyone's right to an opinion. Just a bit of fun! -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA;378406 Wrote: I still don't understand your position Pat. Can you hear a difference between 24/48, 24/96 and 24/192? Do you believe others, like say the guys at Gimell and Linn Records and Phillips and Harmonia Mundi, or their customers, can? Blind ABX tests have proven that people can hear the difference between 16 bit and higher rez formats. on a silent section of a track with the volume cranked (so the difference in 16 bit quantization noise was audible). Other than that, no. I did a calculation a while ago on this forum which showed that changing the 24th bit on even a very powerful system corresponds to a change in SPL that's smaller than the fluctuations due to Brownian motion of air molecules - far, far below the threshold of human hearing. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
The problem is not whether there are differences between 44.1 and 96 sampling rates. From the dacs' perspective theses differences are obvious and measurable withing the audible frequency range. The problem is that most people don't care about these differences. -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Themis;378213 Wrote: The problem is not whether there are differences between 44.1 and 96 sampling rates. From the dacs' perspective theses differences are obvious and measurable withing the audible frequency range. The problem is that most people don't care about these differences. below Nyquist (44.1/2) there will be no difference at either sampling frequency. So for example, a 10Khz sine wave will be identical at 44.1/16 or 96/16. The difference is that at 96/16 you could capture a 48Khz sine wave. I agree that most people don't care about the difference in sampling frequency. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Phil Leigh;378227 Wrote: below Nyquist (44.1/2) there will be no difference at either sampling frequency. So for example, a 10Khz sine wave will be identical at 44.1/16 or 96/16. The difference is that at 96/16 you could capture a 48Khz sine wave. I am not the expert, but maybe you forgot the anti aliasing filters needed in the conversion processes? They most probably have an effect to the perceptable frequency range. -- Meridion Meridion's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Meridion;378239 Wrote: I am not the expert, but maybe you forgot the anti aliasing filters needed in the conversion processes? They most probably have an effect to the perceptable frequency range. I didn't forget them... they are part of my annoying electrical stuff :o) They will have an effect, which is why many DACS now internally upsample to 384kHz to push the effects of the recovery AA filter out of harms way. Without upsampling in the DAC, the AA filter can certainly cause adverse changes in the audible spectrum. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
pfarrell;378151 Wrote: Nearly all modern studio equipment can record at 24/96 or 24/192. Its trivial to do. And if it sells better, they win. More practically, when you record at high/wide specs, and then do mixdown, effects, etc. then you have less loss. http://www.pfarrell.com/ So you're saying that a 24/96 consumer product, for example the Transporter, is just a sales ploy? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA wrote: pfarrell;378151 Wrote: Nearly all modern studio equipment can record at 24/96 or 24/192. Its trivial to do. And if it sells better, they win. More practically, when you record at high/wide specs, and then do mixdown, effects, etc. then you have less loss. http://www.pfarrell.com/ So you're saying that a 24/96 consumer product, for example the Transporter, is just a sales ploy? Troll. I said nothing of the sort. You invented this claim. I do not consider the Transporter a consumer product. Its far too expensive for the mass market. Until there is a mass market of high/wide software, there is no practical need for high/wide capable hardware in the mass market. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
I still don't understand your position Pat. Can you hear a difference between 24/48, 24/96 and 24/192? Do you believe others, like say the guys at Gimell and Linn Records and Phillips and Harmonia Mundi, or their customers, can? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA wrote: I still don't understand your position Pat. Can you hear a difference between 24/48, 24/96 and 24/192? Do you believe others, like say the guys at Gimell and Linn Records and Phillips and Harmonia Mundi, or their customers, can? My position is that you are a troll. You are inventing claims that I have not made. Over and over. plonk -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
pfarrell;378412 Wrote: You are inventing claims that I have not made. Over and over. When I asked Why do Gimell release 24/48 and 24/96 downloads your response was, dismissively: pfarrell;378151 Wrote: Nearly all modern studio equipment can record at 24/96 or 24/192. Its trivial to do. And if it sells better, they win. I haven't invented that. Those were your exact words. That sounds to me like you believe that there is no audible difference betwween 24/48, 24/96 etc, and that the decision to market these format is a sales decision. So, I still don't understand your position. Do you believe that the reason Gimell release 24/96 material is just that it sells better? Or that it also sounds better? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA;378406 Wrote: I still don't understand your position Pat. Can you hear a difference between 24/48, 24/96 and 24/192? Do you believe others, like say the guys at Gimell and Linn Records and Phillips and Harmonia Mundi, or their customers, can? It's easy to spout forth about the fact they are audibly different, and exactly how they sound different. Many people do so. Talk is cheap. But I haven't heard of anyone doing the harder trick of backing up big words with a demonstration, and that is where the argument rests from my POV. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA wrote: pfarrell;378151 Wrote: Nearly all modern studio equipment can record at 24/96 or 24/192. Its trivial to do. And if it sells better, they win. I haven't invented that. Those were your exact words. That sounds to me like you believe that there is no audible difference betwween 24/48, 24/96 etc, and that the decision to market these format is a sales decision. I said nothing about whether or not it sounds better. I said its easy to do, and it might sell better. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
darrenyeats wrote: It's easy to spout forth about the fact they are audibly different, and exactly how they sound different. Many people do so. Talk is cheap. But I haven't heard of anyone doing the harder trick of backing up big words with a demonstration, and that is where the argument rests from my POV. With the minor extension that different is not the same as better At least TAS defines what better means to them, more like the real sound of acoustic instruments in real space. My goal is not better measurements or bigger (or smaller) numbers. My goal is to have it sound like Emmy Lou Harris is singing in my living room. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
You have to agree that the industry doesn't care whether it's better or different. And also, that most of people thinking it's better don't care about bringing any evidence to anybody: apart from the musicians' or sound engineers' point of view (who are way too busy doing their own -interesting- job rather than trying to convince all these skeptics around), all the others' point of view is gracefully ignored. But, wanted or not, 24/96 will be a fact soon, for everybody, ignoring completely of all these who know it is not better. Hehe. Business is business. ;) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Themis;378489 Wrote: But, wanted or not, 24/96 will be a fact soon, for everybody, ignoring completely of all these who know it is not better. Hehe. Business is business. ;) If that ended these silly arguments that would be one plus point. Unfortunately 24/192 looms, and after that... Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
darrenyeats;378502 Wrote: If that ended these silly arguments that would be one plus point. Unfortunately 24/192 looms, and after that... Darren Don't worry: we're all very inventive when it comes to arguing to how what is better for each of us should be better for everybody... we'll find something else. XD -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
mswlogo;377886 Wrote: Feeding the transporter directly into Meridian's Active 24/96 DSP-6000's speakers I beg to differ. Interesting... could you describe the difference? Also, do you think you could tell the difference between raw 24/96 and the same stream correctly downsampled to 24/48 in a controlled DBT? This is a genuine question. I know I couldn't! Regards Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Phil Leigh;377941 Wrote: do you think you could tell the difference between raw 24/96 and the same stream correctly downsampled to 24/48 in a controlled DBT? .. I know I couldn't! Regards Phil Since there is twice the amount of information in a 24/96 stream than in a 24/48 stream I'm somewhat surprised that you can't hear any difference. Might there not be something wrong with your system that it cannot resolve such a huge difference between streams?! -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA;377946 Wrote: Since there is twice the amount of information in a 24/96 stream than in a 24/48 stream I'm somewhat surprised that you can't hear any difference. I don't follow your reasoning there. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA;377946 Wrote: Since there is twice the amount of information in a 24/96 stream than in a 24/48 stream I'm somewhat surprised that you can't hear any difference. Might there not be something wrong with your system that it cannot resolve such a huge difference between streams?! You need to read up on Nyquist theorum and Information Theory and then think about that question again. Twice the number of bits might not be twice the amount of information :o) My whole point is that in informational terms the difference is really quite small... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Phil Leigh;377971 Wrote: You need to read up on Nyquist theorum and Information Theory and then think about that question again. Twice the number of bits might not be twice the amount of information :o) My whole point is that in informational terms the difference is really quite small... The main reason is not information per se - it's that people can't hear sounds with frequencies much above 16kHz, making 96 kHz (with a 48kHz Nyquist cutoff) total overkill. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
radish;377873 Wrote: As of 7.3 the server will transcode files which have too high a bitrate down to whatever the player can handle. As of 7.3.1 (IIRC) it will do it without switching to mp3 :) Must be another bug with 7.3.1 , 'cos it won't transcode a 24/88.2 flac file down to 24/48 in my setup (SB3). The track in question was downloaded from the Linn site. Thankfully all of my other files are either 16/44.1 or 24/48 flacs. Chris -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Vereina;378077 Wrote: If I understand correctly, it is the 7.3.2 beta that does automatic transcoding of FLAC down to a sampling rate that the SB3 (or SBR) supports. So, I presume that 88.2 kHz would go to 44.1 (although I believe that the 24 bit word length will be maintained). I have just purchased one of the 24 / 88.2 recordings from Linn myself and, according to my CD player (which I am using as a DAC with my SBR), it is receiving 44.1. Just tried 7.3.2 and it does transcode. As to actual bitrates involved is anyones guess - I have no indication as to the bitrate being used. I have a choice of 2 versions to pick from: one version I resampled to 24/48, the other has been left in its' default 24/88.2 . I can hear no difference between the two in playback. Chris -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
opaqueice;378059 Wrote: The main reason is not information per se - it's that people can't hear sounds with frequencies much above 16kHz, making 96 kHz (with a 48kHz Nyquist cutoff) total overkill. So why do people bother recording at 24bit/192khz? And why do people like Gimell sell versions of their music at 24/48 and 24/96? Overkill? Waste of money? Or have they got equipment and ears that can resolve the difference? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA wrote: So why do people bother recording at 24bit/192khz? And why do people like Gimell sell versions of their music at 24/48 and 24/96? Overkill? Waste of money? Or have they got equipment and ears that can resolve the difference? Nearly all modern studio equipment can record at 24/96 or 24/192. Its trivial to do. And if it sells better, they win. More practically, when you record at high/wide specs, and then do mixdown, effects, etc. then you have less loss. JezA still strikes me as a troll -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
JezA;378149 Wrote: So why do people bother recording at 24bit/192khz? There are many good reasons for recording at very high frequencies and resolution. For end users many of those reasons do not apply. -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Phil Leigh;377971 Wrote: You need to read up on Nyquist theorum and Information Theory and then think about that question again. Twice the number of bits might not be twice the amount of information :o) My whole point is that in informational terms the difference is really quite small... It completely depends on what is using the digitized data. Let's say I have a simple sine wave of amplitude 1. And sample it at 0, Pi, and 2PI. Then I'll get 0, 0, 0. Now let's increase the sampling rate to 5 samples. 0, pi/2, pi, 3pi/2, 2pi. Then I'll get 0, 1, 0, 1, 0. That is a HUGE difference from basically doubling the sampling rate. Now it is believed that humans can't hear above 20khz so there is no need to go above 40khz. But there is no proof going above 44.1khz is not sensed by humans. This may translate to less fatigue for example by going higher. Not something you can easily pinpoint in A/B testing. I also believe it allows DAC to run better, bass management and other bits of processing to not dip into the 44.1khz realm. Music is analog and it does take an infinite sampling rate to prefectly reproduce it (to capture 100% of the information). To the human ear doubling 44.1 to 88.2 may or may not be doubling what the human brain/ears can process and it's impossible to put a figure on it's value to listening pleasure. Is going from 22khz to 44khz twice as good to your listening pleasure. I'd say for most of us it's more than twice as good. But we only doubled teh sampling rate. It's not that simple. So there is definitely more information sampling above 44.1 it's arguable if the human brain/ear can use it in a meaningful way. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
mswlogo wrote: Phil Leigh;377971 Wrote: You need to read up on Nyquist theorum and Information Theory and then think about that question again. It completely depends on what is using the digitized data. Let's say I have a simple sine wave of amplitude 1. No, your example is generated to be wrong. You really need to read up on Nyquist and information theory. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
mswlogo;378171 Wrote: It completely depends on what is using the digitized data. Let's say I have a simple sine wave of amplitude 1. And sample it at 0, Pi, and 2PI. Then I'll get 0, 0, 0. Now let's increase the sampling rate to 5 samples. 0, pi/2, pi, 3pi/2, 2pi. Then I'll get 0, 1, 0, 1, 0. That is a HUGE difference from basically doubling the sampling rate. Now it is believed that humans can't hear above 20khz so there is no need to go above 40khz. But there is no proof going above 44.1khz is not sensed by humans. This may translate to less fatigue for example by going higher. Not something you can easily pinpoint in A/B testing. I also believe it allows DAC to run better, bass management, digital cross overs, volume calibration and other bits of processing (all of which my system applies) to not dip into the 44.1khz realm. Music is analog and it does take an infinite sampling rate to prefectly reproduce it (to capture 100% of the information). To the human ear doubling 44.1 to 88.2 may or may not be doubling what the human brain/ears can process and it's impossible to put a figure on it's value to listening pleasure. Is going from 22khz to 44khz twice as good to your listening pleasure. I'd say for most of us it's more than twice as good. But we only doubled the sampling rate. It's not that simple. So there is definitely more information sampling above 44.1 it's arguable if the human brain/ear can use it in a meaningful (enjoyable) way. Erm... actually no. We could have a debate about whether or not music (sound pressure waves) is quintessentially an analogue or digital phenomena - as indeed we could about how human hearing works and how that more closely resembles a digital sampling mechanism than anything analogue... Indeed, one could argue there is no such concept as analogue - it's just a way of rationalising in our human brains the complex realities and implications of quantum physics that comprise the universe. But to the main topic: Information Theory explains that above a certain sampling frequency there is no more useful information to extract. So, no... in this example, doubling the sampling frequency alone does not create twice the information by capturing additional sample that are otherwise missing in-between values. It might seem intuitively that it must...but it doesn't. From a pure Information Theory perspective, the only benefit of a higher sampling rate is the upward movement of the Nyquist frequency, which in turn allows higher frequencies to be captured accurately. This is the theory. It explains why CD's work, why MP3 works and a whole bunch of other important stuff. The problem we are left with is what happens when we try and render the digital information back into (what we call) the analogue realm via a DAC... at which point a bunch of annoying real-world electrical stuff gets in the way! I'm not saying that 16/44.1 is perfect by the way - 24/44.1 or 24/48 or higher is clearly audibly better to most people in most systems that can handle it properly (ie in the DACs). However, having spent hours fiddling around with this I've come to the personal conclusion that lots of people assume that the reason why SACD/DVD-A generally sounded good was the increased sampling frequency...and I think it was the increased bit-depth. Of course, not many people have listened to 16/92 vs 24/92... Again this is consistent with Information Theory - the sampling accuracy or precision is set by the bit-depth, so the higher the bit-depth the lower the intrinsic error in each sample value, therefore the less hard our brains have to work to listen to / make sense of the sound. . -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
ronaldg;377518 Wrote: Can you stream 24b/96kHz flac to the Duet and use an external DAC to play the file in full res? An alternative answer: you can stream 24/96 as 24/48 to the Duet+DAC and it will sound identical to the native 24/96 stream into the DAC... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Phil Leigh;377617 Wrote: An alternative answer: you can stream 24/96 as 24/48 to the Duet+DAC and it will sound identical to the native 24/96 stream into the DAC... How would one stream a 24/96 as 24/48? Is there a setting within SC? Thanks for the info. Ron -- ronaldg ronaldg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12713 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
As of 7.3 the server will transcode files which have too high a bitrate down to whatever the player can handle. As of 7.3.1 (IIRC) it will do it without switching to mp3 :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
Phil Leigh;377617 Wrote: An alternative answer: you can stream 24/96 as 24/48 to the Duet+DAC and it will sound identical to the native 24/96 stream into the DAC... Feeding the transporter directly into Meridian's Active 24/96 DSP-6000's speakers I beg to differ. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
This topic comes up quite a bit, I've noticed. And we see higher resolution music coming out a bit more too, from stores like Linn Music. Any idea when there will be a Duet2 that can at least pass through up to 196Khz? -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz
No, you need a Transporter for 24/96. The SBR will do up to 24/48. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57413 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
