Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Hey All, I have a feeling that I may alienate myself a bit with my first post herebut here goes... I dont belive Don tried the Carbon Fiber as a shot-in-the-dark kind of whim. I've been reading-up on Carbon Fiber (CF) for audio applications for a short time. What I've found seems quite interesting to me. I'll pontificate for a bit and then paste some quotes/info that caught my eye, but what Im posting here is by no means the end-all-be-all on the subject. So please take all that I post with a grain of salt. Also note that most of what I'm posting is NOT in direct reference to SB3 or Transporter, though it is totally on topic with the thread started by Don. 1: DeafCat, check this out: http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/control/category/~category_id=TWPCAT_11 If you do a web-search for RFI/EMI fabrics, mesh, screen etc... a TON of options come-up, many are coated or metalized fabrics that pass air in/out.Good Luck! 2: I recently purchased some CF sleeves and a small sheet to test. I did this before reading Dons post(s). I do not know if the CF will have any audible impact in my system, but Ill report back to the group on my impressions, if anyones interested that is. 3: Heres a bit of my thought process behind my decision to spend ~$60 and some DIY-time on some CF sleeves and fabric to test in my system: I think most of us can agree that RFI can/will degrade a systems sound quality to some degree or another. Also, depending on where one is living (near industry, in a big city, radio transmitter/relay towers, etc... vs. miles from anything) also affect the relative amounts of transmitted and airborne RFI pollution ones system may have to overcome. We all know that certain gear (sources, amps, pre, cables, etc) rejects or limits the intrusion/transmission/radiation of RFI/EMI better than others. So, that means the potential audible benefits of RFI attenuation will be both system and locale dependant. Consider that someone owning a high-end system where theres no RFI will likely not benefit much from RFI shielding/attenuation. The converse is also very true. I know all of you posting here already know this stuff; the above is primarily for those whore reading and not posting. Knowing that CF absorbs RFI (think original Stealth Technology) then, theoretically speaking, if each individual piece of audio gear (cables and all) were completely encased in carbon, then externally radiated RFI would be attenuated and internally generated radiated RFI generated in each component would also be limited in its ability to escape and impact other parts of the audio system. Interesting enough, but this CF application does nothing for the RFI transmitted via cables and connectorsor does it? I've read but I don't claim to understand the discourse between a pair of electrical engineers discussing the benefits of CF in their own audio DIY projects. One of them suggests that CF can, when placed at the ends of cables, limit harmonic-ringing and standing waveswhich in some cases can have audible benefits. This may account for some of the success of Furutech and Oyaide have had with using carbon fiber in outlet covers and certain manufacturers have had with creating the IEC and plug ends out of CF (Acrolink maybe, cant recall, sorry?). This sounds ridiculous to me, especially at the prices being asked for these things, but the number of people (well respected and otherwise) that have reported positive audible benefits that these products supposedly provide can not (at least not by me) be dismissed out-of-hand So, that and the below quotes were the foundation of my reasoning for thinking that I should get some of this carbon fiber and try it out for myeslf .$60, heh, if it doesnt work no biggie, at least my system wont be picked-up on radar! 4: OK, here are those quotes I promised. All credit goes to the original posters'. Begin Quote: The carbon damps RF resonances on the power cords. - Al Sekela 16:43:28 05/30/07 (0) In Reply to: RE: Add some carbon fiber to the face plate. posted by Soundripples on May 30, 2007 at 11:00:39 It is essentially the same technique used to make stealth aircraft. Electromagnetic waves are reflected by good conductors, such as the aluminum plate in your project or aircraft skin. If the waves encounter a resistive surface, such as the carbon fiber or the secret materials used on stealth aircraft (hint: see Stillpoints ERS cloth), they are converted to heat and little of their energy is reflected. If the resistance is too high, they pass through until they hit the underlying metal, and then they are reflected. There is some optimum value of surface resistivity that will totally absorb the waves. I don't know what it is, but typical carbon fiber material seems to be reasonably close. Lucky for us that carbon fiber is also used to make golf club shafts and the like, and the materials are available at non-audio prices.
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Dyak;231488 Wrote: the number of people (well respected and otherwise) that have reported positive audible benefits that these products supposedly provide can not (at least not by me) be dismissed out-of-hand You're making a common logic error. Just because a large number of people say something is true does not actually make that thing true, especially when a lot of those people earn their living selling the thing they are talking-up. For example, look at astrology. There are many millions of people who believe their lives are controlled by such silliness as where the stars and planets are in relation to each other and the earth. Are they right? What about psychics? Do you think any of them really can see the future? A lot of women who live in trailers do. How about Naziism? A lot of people were convinced that there was an ultimate solution to all of mankind's problems. Were they right? Look how many people voted for W, not once, but twice! That alone should tell you about the wisdom of crowds. All of this still ignores the dangers of handling CF and especially the danger of CF fiber fragments getting into your audio equipment and wrecking it. You can make all the arguments you want about stealth technology and whatever crap you read on some internet forum populated by religious fanatics disguised as audiophiles, or in marketing literature from companies trying to sell expensive stuff to audiophiles. In the end, if you wrap your equipment in CF cloth it is unlikely to keep working for very long. If you are lucky, no one including you, your children, spouse, guests, or pets will have the mind-bending experience of inhaling any of those flying fiber fragments. What makes more sense, listening to a salesman whose next boat payment depends on your believing what he says or believing what the MSDS says, and what people who have handled the material say? I think the public school system in this country needs to put a lot more effort into teaching critical thinking skills... TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Godwin's Law +1. Seriously though, everyone should be very skeptical about these claims for CF. If you want to shield a component from ambient RFI, you want to make a Faraday cage out of the best conductor you can find - NOT something resistive. I don't know how good a conductor CF is for RFs, but I doubt it's very good - which means that yes, some of the energy will be absorbed and converted into heat, but much of the rest will simply pass through and affect the equipment inside. Aluminum foil is probably better. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
opaqueice;231502 Wrote: Godwin's Law +1. Did I miss the Nazi reference, or do you mean Darwin? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Dyak;231488 Wrote: 1: DeafCat, check this out: http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/control/category/~category_id=TWPCAT_11 If you do a web-search for RFI/EMI fabrics, mesh, screen etc... a TON of options come-up, many are coated or metalized #8220;fabrics#8221; that pass air in/out. Good Luck! Doug Cheers :) Interesting stuff -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Skunk;231523 Wrote: Did I miss the Nazi reference, or do you mean Darwin? I meant Godwin. It's in Tyler's post. But Darwin may be at work here as well - an audiophile that dies by inhalation of CF particles from a very ineffective Faraday cage would be a pretty strong candidate for his eponymous award -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Tyler, I don't feel I have made a logic error, as I was voicing my opinion, not making a blanket statement of Truth. Sorry if I did not make it clear it seems my writing style (or lack thereof?) can be an impediment. Regardless, the convincing factors, for me, was of some individuals whose opinions I've come to respect over the past few years...and I was merely linking that to why I ventured to put my $$ down to test and evaluate their claims. Did you also happen to catch the phrase immediately preceding the portion of my post that you (selectively?) copied, where I qualify this entire statement with, This sounds ridiculous to me, but the number I am skeptical of their claims and will test and evaluate them for myself. I was skeptical of the audible benefits of component vibration control. I was skeptical of the purported benefits of certain types of power conditioning. I was skeptical of the effects of speaker placement and room tuning. So, instead of my going and claiming to the world that these things Could Not, Would Not, and Never Will make any audible benefits to any individual's system; I went out, gathered what info I could, acquired materials, asked questions, and then tested and personally evaluated each of these to my own satisfaction in my system. Granted, what and how I've tested would not survive a Peer-Review and could not be taken by anyone else as anything other than Opinion.as this is Audio we're discussing, which its perception is a completely subjective and individual experience. But I've researched, tested, and then evaluated, which is the very foundation of critical thinking which you just bashed in your post. As defined on Wikipedia: Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analyzing and evaluating. So, have you tested CF yet, and can you tell me, with completely unbiased objectivity that CF CAN NOT have an audible impact or are you simply making an assumption and stating it as fact? In light of your response, please lay-off the derision and name calling, you're a senior member here Thank you for the kind welcome. Overall, I can understand a lack of open minds, this is not a forum dedicated to discussing experimentation with largely theoretical ideas, though I can say that as I read one or two posts in this thread, I recall reading of certain individuals claiming that it was an absolute physical impossibility for the Wright Bros. to fly. Let me back-up. A bit... I'm not trying to convince you, me, or anyone else that this CF stuff truly does work; I'm merely trying to show to those that are interested in the subject that there was enough interesting info out there to convince me (and others before me) to experiment with it. I did not quote or refer to even the tip-of-the-iceberg on the subject. You're right I did not address safety issues, but I do electrical wiring too; I work with chemicals daily; I drive a truck; and I even go swimming! All of these require proper preparation before engaging in the activity and can be quite deadly to those who play with them in an unprepared and childish manner. Thank you for the warning and for the MSDS, but I will pay-the-piper should I fail to prepare and act in a properly disciplined manner. Hey Opaqueice, Yeah, you're probably right on both fronts. Everyone should be skeptical of the claims .test and evaluate for oneself! And I think youre totally correct about the Faraday Cage statement too. Im not certain about the aluminum foil statement though, as Ive tested it a bit, and found that the foil, grounded or ungrounded, wrapped around cables, components, or the entire rack seemed to have more negatives or no-impacts than benefits that I was able to perceive, in my system, at that time Maybe incorrectly, I have hypothesized that: 1) A combination of the shield (metal body of most components = a Faraday Cage) with a CF absorber may potentially add a bit of audible effectiveness. 2) That plastic bodied components may benefit more than the metal cased ones due to a lack of shield (and CF is cheaper, quicker, and easier for me to cover an existing component than using a metal project box, or sheet-metal). 3) That unshielded cables (PCs and ICs), specifically, may benefit from CF. Of course I could be totally wrong with all of the above, but for $60 I get to test/experiment and determine perceived effectiveness in my own system, first-hand as opposed to relying on others' reports or theories. So, likely I've wasted $60, but on the off-chance that I did nothm, that will make me quite happy. I live less than 300-meters from the beginning of a transmitter array I suffer from EMI/RFI related issuesaarrghh. Thank goodness I'm a hopeless Tweaker, and I keep repeating to my significant other something that I read recently when she comments on the amount of time I spend experimenting, building, and re-arranging .I tell her, At least its
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Dyak;231539 Wrote: I am skeptical of their claims and will test and evaluate them for myself. I was skeptical of the audible benefits of component vibration control. I was skeptical ... snip But I've researched, tested, and then evaluated, which is the very foundation of critical thinking which you just bashed in your post. As defined on Wikipedia: Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analyzing and evaluating. Its a matter of degrees, I guess. When I see statements I know or suspect to be ridiculous, I make a decision NOT to spend money/time to test them. THAT is the essence of critical thinking. If you have to go out and test everything for yourself you're NOT applying critical thinking. If I tell you that shooting yourself in the head will make your system sound better, will you test it? Of course not. No one would, therefore everyone is capable of applying critical thinking to some situations. Critical thinking is about applying your knowledge and experience. Knowing the effect of a gun is enough to know that it can't possibly improve the sound of your audio system. Granted some folks have less knowledge and experience than others and therefore will need to perform more experiments, but another place to apply critical thinking is in knowing whose opinions to trust and in the design and analysis of the experiments. The first sign of someone being less than trustworthy is when their income depends on your believing what they have to say. There are other factors as well, such as the person's statements about other topics, etc. Some people are just misled and repeat what they have heard elsewhere and others are just pathological liars and will make up whatever pleases them for whatever reasons they have. Surely we can agree that there is a huge change, detectable by anyone with functioning ears, when one plays music with the amp switched off and then switched on. The experimenter's expectations are unlikely to influence the result of such a test. However, when the likely (or unlikely) effect of a tweak is small, the effect of the experimenter's expectations must be considered. Someone wraps equipment in CF and by golly, they hear a difference. Can it be a huge difference? maybe, if they live next to a TV broadcast antenna or similar high power RF source. If not, which is the majority of locations in the world, it will be at most a slight difference. This requires proper experiment design to test with any significance. Proper design includes double blind testing. Instrumentation would be better than a human listener because it has fewer biases, but then you open the whole measurable vs. audible can of worms and the whole thing, like this thread, quickly becomes mind-numbing. No one has denied that there may be an effect when wrapping equipment with CF cloth. It is conductive. Conductive shields are used in electronics everywhere. The difference is that those conductive shields are part of an overall system design to improve or maintain performance. What has been pointed out is that using CF cloth as a shield is likely to end up wrecking the very equipment that the CF wrapper is trying to improve. It has also been pointed out by experienced people (well, me, anyway) that handling CF cloth in a living space is not a good idea because the same flying fibers that will short electrical circuits are easily inhaled and caught in the eyes and skin and the reaction is definitely unpleasant to say the least. I'm going to apply some critical thinking here and state that using aluminum foil instead of CF cloth is likely to provide the same audible benefit as CF, but it doesn't have the associated risks (or cost). However, having been schooled in electrical engineering and worked as an RFIC designer and applications support engineer for about 15 years of my past career, I can also tell you that the haphazard method of randomly placing sheets of aluminum or CF cloth on objects without actually designing the system as a shield is just as likely to cause as many problems as it fixes. Ungrounded pieces of metal wrapped around signal leads are as likely to acts as antennas as they are shields and capacitively couple noise into the circuits they are intended to protect. I know a lot of people like the way CF cloth looks. It is pretty stuff, in an industrial sort of way. If they use it in cars, motorcycles, aircraft, and even bicycles, it's gotta be good for audio, too, right? Wrong. Advertisers have worked for years to train people to think that by showing pictures of high performance cars you'll think that the computer is faster; that because some athlete wears a particular brand of shoes, you'll be able to do what they do if you wear the same shoes; smoking is sexy and enhances athletic performance. The list goes on and on. CF is a material that all sort of magical properties have been assigned to simply by the nature of the things
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
tyler_durden;231555 Wrote: If I tell you that shooting yourself in the head will make your system sound better, will you test it? What kind of bullet, silver or gold tipped? And will I still hear digital glare afterwards? Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I would opt for a platinum bullet. Then the eulogy could state that, although excedingly stupid, i was also excedingly wealthy. and still unable to spell -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
So exactly why did you put the CF on in the first place? Was it a random shot in the dark experiment or were you trying to achieve something in particular? Did you have the CF lying around or did you get it specially? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Phil Leigh;231046 Wrote: Faraday cage does exactly that. Ah ha, I was thinking a screen like steel, but I see a fine ally/steel mesh or two (Or even CF ;-) ) will do the same thing, and allow ventilation for cooling :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;231054 Wrote: Good thinking - resort to name calling and ganging up. I know more than you do about everything Lets chase this guy off. You have a narrow mind or are an employee of SB with an agenda. This was fun! Giving you kids something to whack. Oh yes I just put the carbon fiber on to impress my friends. LOL This thread does exactly what it says on the tin. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I think it's a good (and very light) isolation medium. I don't think it magically absorbs anything, what would it magically turn the heat energy into? I use carbon fiber all over my motorcycle. Looks good, is light, and isolates heat. Not sure about the advnatages those traits would deliver in an audio environment, but then again, I do not argue with psychoacoustics. If it works for you, don't question it! -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
The big problem with ignorance is that it limits your ability to sort out what you know and what you don't. Those who don't know about a particular thing are inclined to think that they know more than they do. There is an interesting paper on the subject of self-knowledge (or the lack thereof) here: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf Read, enjoy and learn! TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I like to see DBT results for shielding equipment and cables. You wrap your stuff up and expect to hear a difference, therefore you hear a difference. Try is when you don't know if the stuff is wrapped or not. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Deaf Cat;230852 Wrote: So would putting something producing/affected by rf/emi in a simple metal box and earthing it do the same thing? ie. protect the item from outside rf/emi and, or stop it from radiating rf/emi. erm...Yeah! (but watch out for the cables...) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
So would putting something producing/affected by rf/emi in a simple metal box and earthing it do the same thing? ie. protect the item from outside rf/emi and, or stop it from radiating rf/emi. -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
The thread has gotten off the point of my post: RF is distorting the sound of the SB3. How can any sort of comparison or recommendation be made when something so prevalent as RF effects the sound? Perhaps my SB3 with shielding sounds as good as a Transporter? -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Deaf Cat wrote: So would putting something producing/affected by rf/emi in a simple metal box and earthing it do the same thing? ie. protect the item from outside rf/emi and, or stop it from radiating rf/emi. Yes, its called a Faraday cage. Usually made of screen for ventilation -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
As far as I can ascertain, the EMI shielding capabilities of Carbon Fibre are similar to those of aluminium foil. It's principle benefit is that it is non-metallic which makes it ideal for certain critical applications (eg avionics). http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/9400/29835/01360389.pdf?tp=isnumber=arnumber=1360389 However, as far as I can tell it is not magic. Wrapping anything in either carbon fibre or aluminium will effectvely shield it from EMI/RFI - and conversely will also stop it radiating RFI/EMI. IF you have nearby equipment that is very susceptible to RFI/EMI they MIGHT be affected by the SB3's display (in which case - turn it off) or the stock PSU which CAN be a rich source of RF (in which case - replace it). -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I'd go with the tin foil, but you might find it has more effect wrapped round your head. Gotta be worth a try! Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Heybrook Sextets plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Again: It is my understanding that CF absorbs and changes to heat. The others reflect. Although a steal or copper box may help. They also change electro magnetic fields. -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;230926 Wrote: Again: It is my understanding that CF absorbs and changes to heat. The others reflect. Although a steal or copper box may help. They also change electro magnetic fields. And your point is what exactly? If you surround your sb in foil and it reflects then nothing will get out...likewise with your CF - regardless of what happens to the RF. I'm still not clear on what you believe is happening. If you think the SB is generating RFI then - yes it is. Regardless of what you wrap the SB in, that will stop the RF getting out. As the paper I pointed you at early makes clear, the screning effect of either (regardless of the mechanism at play) is the same. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Phil the tin foil will reflect the waves created by the sb. So the tin foil will create a little mircowave oven that will cook the sb and create more distortion. -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;231005 Wrote: Phil the tin foil will reflect the waves created by the sb. So the tin foil will create a little mircowave oven that will cook the sb and create more distortion. No it won't. Where do you think these waves are coming from? The VFD, the wireless card? Something else? There is so little energy in those items they won't cook anything. Every single item of electrical equipment you possess creates RFI. Instead of wrapping the SB in anything, why not focus on the thing(s) you think are being affected by this RFI? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;231005 Wrote: Phil the tin foil will reflect the waves created by the sb. So the tin foil will create a little mircowave oven that will cook the sb and create more distortion. But if you earth the foil casing, won't all the rays be pulled to ground ? -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Phil Leigh;230853 Wrote: erm...Yeah! (but watch out for the cables...) Cheers Phil, IC's are screened, ( what ever that means.. :0 ) Mains cable has an earthed shield :) Pat Farrell;230856 Wrote: Yes, its called a Faraday cage. Usually made of screen for ventilation Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Cheers Pat, do you know what material allows ventilation but stops the rf/emi ? or does one have to use heat sinks/fins on the Faraday cage.. :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Faraday cage does exactly that. I can't help thinking this thread is getting confused between light and EMR -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;231005 Wrote: Phil the tin foil will reflect the waves created by the sb. So the tin foil will create a little mircowave oven that will cook the sb and create more distortion. You seriously need to study something other than high-end audio marketing propaganda. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
tyler_durden;231047 Wrote: You seriously need to study something other than high-end audio marketing propaganda. TD :o) - nicely put! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Good thinking - resort to name calling and ganging up. I know more than you do about everything Lets chase this guy off. You have a narrow mind or are an employee of SB with an agenda. This was fun! Giving you kids something to whack. Oh yes I just put the carbon fiber on to impress my friends. LOL -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I'll second the fiber itch etc. There are a number of products that will do similar stuff ...I've not used any so can't comment on its effectiveness. -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I believe that the hazards of carbon fibres have been greatly understated. These materials have been developed to have properties very different from those of gross carbon; yet the hazard analysis seems to have been carried out as if it has the same properties. You can't have it both ways. Some research carried out trying to quantify the inhalation hazard of carbon nanotubes by comparing silica dust exposure (the gold standard for hazardous particulates) and carbon nanotube dust exposure in rats, found that exposure at a level that caused rats exposed to silica dust to die after days or weeks, killed ALL the test rats in about half an hour (sorry can't cite paper exactly). Your carbon fibre cloth probably isn't as bad as that, but I wouldn't be handling it in my house. If the fibres are bound in a matrix, totally benign. I think I'll put on my foil hat now; major league baseball is stealing my thoughts -- *Isaac* *Isaac*'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13183 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Yes I have heard the same about nano CF, but I thought this was a different material. -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber regular cf. Nano tube cf (the really really bad stuff) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube Diesel cars and trucks are more harmful than cf. The particles from diesel engines are very small and get stuck in the lungs. CF particles do not get stuck in the lungs. -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;229950 Wrote: Please see: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/14/149384.html I believe the people in AA not as closed minded as this group. David Aiken's post looks pretty much like what I said. If by close minded you mean experienced in handling CF cloth, then you are right. donwalker;229950 Wrote: I hear solid improvements with the application of the CF. Tin foil will not work as well it only changes the RF - CF absorbs the RF and turns them into heat. I think the real question is what are the health affect of RF. Why does aluminum foil merely change the RF while CF turns it into heat? What sort of change occurs? Why is that less desireable than turning it into heat? How does either of the effects improve the audio when the material of choice is wrapped around a power cord? What are the health effects of RF? is certainly an interesting question. When you know the answer please share it with us. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;230236 Wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber regular cf. Nano tube cf (the really really bad stuff) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube Diesel cars and trucks are more harmful than cf. The particles from diesel engines are very small and get stuck in the lungs. CF particles do not get stuck in the lungs. Dust and particles are not the same thing a small, straight, needle-like pieces of fiber. I don't think they get stuck in the lungs because they make you cough until you gag trying to expel them from your trachea. I don't recommend it, but it's easy enough to test. Get yourself a piece of CF cloth- any size will do. Flex it a few times, cut it with scissors, etc. without using any protective mask, gloves, or goggles. You will experience the joy for yourself. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Please see: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/14/149384.html I believe the people in AA not as closed minded as this group. I hear solid improvements with the application of the CF. Tin foil will not work as well it only changes the RF - CF absorbs the RF and turns them into heat. I think the real question is what are the health affect of RF. -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
If you have not earthed it, try earthing it, things may well improve. Your just using it as shielding from rf etc. are you not :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
yes - RF thats the intended shielding. The shield on the IC made a big difference. I am VERY concerned that there might be health hazards. I have been doing some searches, but have not found anything earth shaking. Does anyone have any links to the health effects of using carbon fiber without a matrix? -- donwalker donwalker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker;229475 Wrote: I am VERY concerned that there might be health hazards. I have been doing some searches, but have not found anything earth shaking. Does anyone have any links to the health effects of using carbon fiber without a matrix? The MSDS would lead you to believe that it's pretty harmless stuff, but I have experienced the itch and the coughing associated with airborne fibers when I was building my bicycle. The itch is comparable to that from handling glass fiber insulation, but the cough is unbelievable. I have never coughed so hard in my life. It may not be carcinogenic, but it is most definitely nasty stuff. The most obvious and undeniable (read the MSDS) issue is the electrical conductivity of the loose fibers. Wrapping CF cloth around electrical/electronic equipment is begging for problems. Good luck! TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
There is some documentation: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10./j.1600-0536.1996.tb02418.x -- bpa bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
SuperQ;229364 Wrote: I take no shame in saying this.. you're batty! Really? Have you tried it? Or just a cheap reference to snake oil? . -- haunyack Transporter - BK R200.2 - Vandersteen 3A Signature. (Listening room) SB3 (RWA analog) - Rotel RB1070 - BW Matrix 805. (Bedroom) Fridgidare - Mirror Pond pale ale - easy chair w/remote - irritated neighbors. haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I take no shame in saying this.. you're batty! -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
donwalker wrote: I am using carbon fiber. Please see pictures. Yes I can hear the difference with the blanket in place. Are they blankets, or batts? If so, you are batty. Is the carbon fiber grounded? Is it better with a digital cable as ground? If you use a proper resin, does it have to be autoclaved? Does the temperature in the autoclave impact sound? ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
Pat Farrell;229368 Wrote: donwalker wrote: I am using carbon fiber. Please see pictures. Yes I can hear the difference with the blanket in place. Are they blankets, or batts? If so, you are batty. Is the carbon fiber grounded? Is it better with a digital cable as ground? If you use a proper resin, does it have to be autoclaved? Does the temperature in the autoclave impact sound? Pat, I love your stuff. Ever done (or thought about doing) an audiophile stand-up routine? I mean it, you give me some good yuks. . -- haunyack Transporter - BK R200.2 - Vandersteen 3A Signature. (Listening room) SB3 (RWA analog) - Rotel RB1070 - BW Matrix 805. (Bedroom) Fridgidare - Mirror Pond pale ale - easy chair w/remote - irritated neighbors. haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Someone tell me I am crazy!
I say this from experience: you ARE crazy. Carbon fiber cloth is made up of tows that have typically 3,000 much-finer-than-hair fibers. Handling the cloth invariably causes some of the fibers to break and they are so light they will waft into the air and easily get into your eyes, stick into your skin, and be inhaled. I have had the itch from getting them on my skin and the coughing fits associated with inhaling the flying fragments. I thought I was going to cough up a lung. Oh yeah, CF is electrically conductive. Those little flying fiber fragments will land on your circuit boards and get into connectors and switches and short things out. You will be lucky if your equipment continues to work at all. If you have ANY sense at all, you will put on some gloves, safety goggles and a face mask, carry that equipment with the CF out of doors, take all that CF off the stuff and vacuum the equipment thoroughly before taking it back into your home. I'd do a lot of vacuuming in the house where you were handling the stuff, too. CF is not to be played with around electrical equipment. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38628 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
