Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Right, I'll try Microsoft. Thanks for everyone's help on this. *http://tinyurl.com/2wpzjj* http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.mspx?mid=dab45783-4fd9-4bb6-93c1-4a6613e5ca63dg=microsoft.public.windows.mediacenter On 28/01/2008, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now I feel a bit dumb! I started looking at building a theme for iGoogle and thought that as you can get them to change based on the current local time, I would make a BBC ONE version for backstage. http://www.google.co.uk/ig?skin=http://www.ukfree.tv/igoogle/igoogle-theme0001.xml Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a TV Anytime feed from: http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html And then I had a look at the feed: http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9 And I note, for example: ProgramURLdvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M/ProgramURL That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is PublishedStartTime2008-01-28T20:30:00Z/PublishedStartTime So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get onto Microsoft and get them to use the right data Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, CB, CB. Is there a way to get a picture for each programme automatically? --- Brian -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
On 28/01/2008, Martin Deutsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a TV Anytime feed from: http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html And then I had a look at the feed: http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9 And I note, for example: ProgramURLdvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M/ProgramURL That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is PublishedStartTime2008-01-28T20:30:00Z/PublishedStartTime So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get onto Microsoft and get them to use the right data Wow. I honestly didn't realise that was out there. I wonder if ITV do? It's still obviously got the caveat that, despite everyone's best efforts in playout, programmes don't always run exactly to time, even in largely automated channels such as on the UKTV network; and your best bet of keeping track of programmes running is using the EIT. Yes.. but it's probably easier to get Microsoft to fix their EPG than rewrite their BDA. I don't have a copy of the Radio Times handy, but I'll maybe get started eating the Guardian's tv pages. I bet Charlie Brooker gives you indigestion if you do... Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, CB, CB. Is there a way to get a picture for each programme automatically? the iPlayer site has programme images, which look easy to get, provided you can get the PIP: eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/images/episode/b008s9k6_150_84.jpg (150_84 is the image dimensions, 303_170 should work too) Perhaps someone here will know how far in the past/future they exist; putting in a dud PIP will give a generic iPlayer logo. Is there an easy way to get the b008s9k6 bit from the TV Anytime data? - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Now I feel a bit dumb! I started looking at building a theme for iGoogle and thought that as you can get them to change based on the current local time, I would make a BBC ONE version for backstage. http://www.google.co.uk/ig?skin=http://www.ukfree.tv/igoogle/igoogle-theme0001.xml Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a TV Anytime feed from: http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html And then I had a look at the feed: http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9 And I note, for example: ProgramURLdvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M/ProgramURL That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is PublishedStartTime2008-01-28T20:30:00Z/PublishedStartTime So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get onto Microsoft and get them to use the right data Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, CB, CB. Is there a way to get a picture for each programme automatically? --- Brian
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Thanks for the response On 24/01/2008, Martin Deutsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 24, 2008 3:31 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere, which is not quite Can I assume the word missing from the end of your sentence was true? If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1]. I have already said that the BBC Radio 4 schedule is to the minute. [...] In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC. (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.) I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to acknowledge mistakes and provide accuracy in the data. If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the Memorandum of Understanding and get MS to sort it out. It's not being nobbled. The information you want isn't out there. It may exist internally, but it's not for public consumption. The standard method[2] is to get billed timings from the schedule in advance, and then look for when that event's 'running' in the EIT. From what you've said so far, Microsoft have chosen to do it a different way in Media Center. Of course the information exists internally! Saying that something that the BBC, which is funded by a universal tax on the public, which is a PUBLIC service broadcasters cannot provide said public with any information is quite frankly appalling. Yes, Microsoft have chosen to assume that the schedule information they get is accurate. If someone at the BBC wishes to force them to rewrite their BDA, which they use in every country in the world, to make it more UK-centric, I would be happy about that. I know everyone here likes having a go at Microsoft, but it's the BBC that has a Memoramdum of Understanding, so I probably should be someone in the BBC's job to say that EPG information we provide you with is inaccurate, please redesign your broadcast architecture. I suspect the problem lies with the fact that the MS record facility is a 'file copy' from the source to the hard drive without any decoding or interpretation of the data. As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S as an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions. It took quite a lot of effort to get them to recognise the damn radio stations! ...so do you think the broadcasters should try to make up for your media player's shortcomings? Or should Microsoft perhaps make their software more aware of the way things are done around here? Both. There are not incompatible. Remember that the MS system works with DVB-T, DVB-S and also can work with an external set-top box and a analogue input. So, reading the DVB streams better would work with digital data, but not with an external decoder. - martin [1] Other listings magazines are available. [2] cf. the 'digital tick' specs to which I referred in an earlier message. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Brian, It seems to me that one of the reasons this thread is going on so long is that many of the people in it share a belief which you don't - and to them it seems so obvious that they haven't bothered to state it explicitly. Here is what I believe is the major axiom of contention: It is impossible to run a broadcast channel precisely to schedule It seems to me that Brian's suggestions make sense if this axiom turns out to be false. Similarly it seems to me that everyone else's defence of the status quo is a description of an engineering work-around designed to compensate for the problems caused by this axiom holding true. Martin and Brian batted back and forth: If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1]. I have already said that the BBC Radio 4 schedule is to the minute. I suspect that Martin's response might well be Ok - but they don't actually stick to that schedule. Indeed Steve has already said: I mean, think how often Radio 4 presenters crash the pips. This is because they're trying their damndest to stick to a schedule that's too tight. So they come in late on a regular basis. Just like Southern Trains, in fact. There are a number of possible solutions to this problem. The one that seems to have been universally adopted by UK TV networks is to publish a fuzzy timetable. One that's accurate to about 5 minutes. They can aim internally for minute-accuracy, but they know they won't get it. This is OK, because they didn't promise minute-accuracy to the world - only 5-minute accuracy. This is comparable to the standard practice when making Hi-Fi equipment. If you build an amp that can cope with an input range of between x and y (before it blows up), then you'll write on the box that it can cope with between x+delta and y-delta. That way there's some tolerance for when things go wrong. If you want to make an FOI request for the timetable everyone aims at internally, then I'm sure you'll get it. But it won't come with any guarantees. If they were to publish it in the EPG, then people would complain when it turned out that 99% of the programmes broadcast at different times to those scheduled. They don't want to imply a guarantee that they can't keep, so they won't volunteer the minute-accurate target schedule. Is that at all helpful? Gareth. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
On 25/01/2008, Gareth Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian, It seems to me that one of the reasons this thread is going on so long is that many of the people in it share a belief which you don't - and to them it seems so obvious that they haven't bothered to state it explicitly. Here is what I believe is the major axiom of contention: It is impossible to run a broadcast channel precisely to schedule As a committed atheist, I don't ever believe anything! As someone who wrote the ITV scheduling system back in 1992, I actually have the experience to know of what I speak, no matter what other people choose to believe. The system I wrote for ITV over 15 years ago worked down to the FRAME - that's 1/25 of a second. That is how channels are scheduled. Most channels are just playout systems, this is particularly true for things like UKTV. Some channels are a mixture of live and recordings (BBC ONE, ITV-1) and these still manage to schedule programmes within second. The only exception is once-a-year news events or sports. There are some totally live channels too, such as NEWS 24. It seems to me that Brian's suggestions make sense if this axiom turns out to be false. Similarly it seems to me that everyone else's defence of the status quo is a description of an engineering work-around designed to compensate for the problems caused by this axiom holding true. My point was that the schedule on BBC TWO has been deliberately nudged along a few minutes to gain a competitive schedule advantage, and this is being withheld. I could just ask the BBC TWO scheduler if this is the case or not, I suppose. Martin and Brian batted back and forth: If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1]. I have already said that the BBC Radio 4 schedule is to the minute. I suspect that Martin's response might well be Ok - but they don't actually stick to that schedule. Indeed Steve has already said: I mean, think how often Radio 4 presenters crash the pips. This is because they're trying their damndest to stick to a schedule that's too tight. So they come in late on a regular basis. Just like Southern Trains, in fact. Running something to a schedule is vital, because if you don't just chuck other people off the air, which would be selfish... News 24 is a great example of a TV channel that can keep to a schedule! And, like trains, broadcast schedules are supposed to be there so people can easily change from one line to another! There are a number of possible solutions to this problem. The one that seems to have been universally adopted by UK TV networks is to publish a fuzzy timetable. One that's accurate to about 5 minutes. They can aim internally for minute-accuracy, but they know they won't get it. This is OK, because they didn't promise minute-accuracy to the world - only 5-minute accuracy. This is comparable to the standard practice when making Hi-Fi equipment. If you build an amp that can cope with an input range of between x and y (before it blows up), then you'll write on the box that it can cope with between x+delta and y-delta. That way there's some tolerance for when things go wrong. The schedule is accurate, but not precise. If you want to make an FOI request for the timetable everyone aims at internally, then I'm sure you'll get it. But it won't come with any guarantees. If they were to publish it in the EPG, then people would complain when it turned out that 99% of the programmes broadcast at different times to those scheduled. They don't want to imply a guarantee that they can't keep, so they won't volunteer the minute-accurate target schedule. Would an EPG be useful if the titles were imprecise? 99% in such environments is terrible. Is that at all helpful? As a justification for doing nothing, yes. I'm just thinking of the user of the PVR systems. Gareth. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Brian Butterworth wrote: The system I wrote for ITV over 15 years ago worked down to the FRAME - that's 1/25 of a second. That is how channels are scheduled. Scheduling systems may be accurate to 1/25 of a second, but that doesn't necessarily imply that they are equally precise. The ability to change their minds up to the last minute *and beyond* means that the accurate times need only reflect the schedulers' intentions, rather than being set in stone. My point was that the schedule on BBC TWO has been deliberately nudged along a few minutes to gain a competitive schedule advantage, and this is being withheld. I could just ask the BBC TWO scheduler if this is the case or not, I suppose. That would be more useful than asserting it without any evidence, certainly. Would an EPG be useful if the titles were imprecise? 99% in such environments is terrible. Firstly, titles *are* imprecise - they contain spelling errors and inconsistencies (eg Brand New Top Gear vs Top Gear vs Best of Top Gear, etc) that make it very hard for PVRs to do useful things with them (eg title-based series detection). Secondly, millions of people *do* find schedules useful despite the lack of total accuracy. So 99% in such environments is adequate. As a justification for doing nothing, yes. Something has already been done - a standard for accurate recordings has been agreed and implemented by the broadcasters and PVR manufacturers. I'm just thinking of the user of the PVR systems. The people who have bought standards-compliant PVRs get accurate recordings. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Steve, Thanks On 25/01/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian Butterworth wrote: The system I wrote for ITV over 15 years ago worked down to the FRAME - that's 1/25 of a second. That is how channels are scheduled. Scheduling systems may be accurate to 1/25 of a second, but that doesn't necessarily imply that they are equally precise. The ability to change their minds up to the last minute *and beyond* means that the accurate times need only reflect the schedulers' intentions, rather than being set in stone. However, my contention is that the schedule has been changed well ahead of broadcast. I don't doubt that there are changes made late, but the use of promotional films, indent sequences and continuity announcements means that almost all programmes start exactly on time. MyTV system, which at the time was lots of companies with different schedules and with the added complication of inserting a heap of different regional advertisements, certainly needed to be accurate and precise to get everyone working together. My point was that the schedule on BBC TWO has been deliberately nudged along a few minutes to gain a competitive schedule advantage, and this is being withheld. I could just ask the BBC TWO scheduler if this is the case or not, I suppose. That would be more useful than asserting it without any evidence, certainly. Aside from the actual timings, of course. And the new NaT on ITV1... Would an EPG be useful if the titles were imprecise? 99% in such environments is terrible. Firstly, titles *are* imprecise - they contain spelling errors and inconsistencies (eg Brand New Top Gear vs Top Gear vs Best of Top Gear, etc) that make it very hard for PVRs to do useful things with them (eg title-based series detection). Secondly, millions of people *do* find schedules useful despite the lack of total accuracy. So 99% in such environments is adequate. This doesn't happen. They would all be recorded with the Microsoft PVR software, I'm afraid. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mj59 As a justification for doing nothing, yes. Something has already been done - a standard for accurate recordings has been agreed and implemented by the broadcasters and PVR manufacturers. But who would want one of these boxes with the facilities of ZX Spectum when I have a HD, 3D PVR with a Terrabyte of storage? I'm just thinking of the user of the PVR systems. The people who have bought standards-compliant PVRs get accurate recordings. I'll get onto Microsoft about this then! S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Steve, Thanks for replying. On 24/01/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian Butterworth wrote: It seems incredible to me that the BBC is DELIBERATELY providing me (via Microsoft) with inaccurate information. If you were to start by assuming that inaccuracies in the EPG data provided by the BBC were there for reasons other than to screw over Windows Media Center users, you might be more likely to come up with a reasonable explanation for the behaviour. I'm not looking for an explanation of the behaviour. I know WHY it happens, it so the BBC can gain a small commercial advantage over it's commercial competitors. I'm just musing that the provision of EPG data appears to be inaccurate, which is hardly in keeping with the BBC's new found hair-shirted honesty. *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing poisoned information. Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose? Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software? As Martin describes, there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other broadcaster for this. The BBC should not CHANGE the schedule, and I am not saying it should. I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at 2202-2232 then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers. Somewhere inside the TVC is a computer system that has some code in it, or is operated by a person, who programmes in the automatic play out of a pre-recorded programme for a time slot which is translated into the published EPG for a slightly different time. And I am sure everyone knows how I feel about the BBC dictating restricted standards to the public. Given how much you know about broadcasting, I am certain that you are aware of the conceptual and practical differences between programme schedules published a week or more in advance, and actual playout times, which can vary considerably, especially (but by no means exclusively) if live events overrun. I don't know much about Digiguide, but it seems probable to me that they are only providing you with the former information. Again, I find it hard to understand how the BBC is to blame for this. I'm just asking for accurate information to be published. If it's wrong to say that the Queen stormed out in a Huff, then it's wrong to provide imprecise schedules to people's computers, set-top boxes and PVRs, surely? (As I recall the Gypsy Media people just automatically pass on the BBC's schedules, and WMC updates them live.) The reason I asked here is that Microsoft say they data comes from Gypsy Media, and then they say it's from the BBC. But yes, you are right, I did have a hand in designing the computerised schedule system the ITV companies used from 1993 onwards so I do understand how it all works in practice. So I bet that the reason I'm the only person in the whole of the UK who notices these minor schedule errors, and that will teach me to sync all my clocks to the MSF from Rugby. Perhaps it's having the mathematical difference between precision and accuracy beaten into me at school? S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
On Jan 24, 2008 10:31 AM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing poisoned information. Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose? Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software? As Martin describes, there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other broadcaster for this. The BBC should not CHANGE the schedule, and I am not saying it should. I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at 2202-2232 then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers. Somewhere inside the TVC is a computer system that has some code in it, or is operated by a person, who programmes in the automatic play out of a pre-recorded programme for a time slot which is translated into the published EPG for a slightly different time. And I am sure everyone knows how I feel about the BBC dictating restricted standards to the public. The person and the system with the precise schedule are sitting little bit up the road in the Broadcast Centre, but that's a moot point. The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying oh, hey, you know that programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few seconds, so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start. It's how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables. Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice is using a listings guide that's based on the same information that's provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the air with DTT. In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC. (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.) - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
On 24/01/2008, Martin Deutsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 24, 2008 10:31 AM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing poisoned information. Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose? Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software? As Martin describes, there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other broadcaster for this. The BBC should not CHANGE the schedule, and I am not saying it should. I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at 2202-2232 then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers. Somewhere inside the TVC is a computer system that has some code in it, or is operated by a person, who programmes in the automatic play out of a pre-recorded programme for a time slot which is translated into the published EPG for a slightly different time. And I am sure everyone knows how I feel about the BBC dictating restricted standards to the public. The person and the system with the precise schedule are sitting little bit up the road in the Broadcast Centre, but that's a moot point. But it does confirm the rest... The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying oh, hey, you know that programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few seconds, so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start. It's how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables. broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere, which is not quite Accuracy, impartiality ... a willingness to acknowledge mistakes when we make them: meeting all these expectations simultaneously ... but it is what the BBC has to do. That's Mark Thompson, speaking whilst us Backstage people where having an Unfesitval round the corner... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/24/television.edinburghtvfestival2007 Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice is using a listings guide that's based on the same information that's provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the air with DTT. That seems quite like trying to have it both ways. In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC. (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.) I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to acknowledge mistakes and provide accuracy in the data. If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the Memorandum of Understanding and get MS to sort it out. As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S as an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions. It took quite a lot of effort to get them to recognise the damn radio stations! - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Caveat: I'm an amateur in this area who knows a bit because I run a MythTV system. Be polite if you correct me. Brian Butterworth wrote: I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at 2202-2232 then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers. Doesn't the EPG offer an advance 'target schedule' (as per Radio Times/TV Times of old) to the nearest 5 minutes and a supplemental 'as broadcast' delivered via the EIT (or whatever the OTA/OTC technology is). Maybe an EIT/HTTP gateway would appear to be useful but I don't think it's that simple. Should an EPG even include 'as broadcast' information? I'd say not. From a UI point of view I see an EPG as being a coarse grained forward planning system for use by humans. The EIT can fine-tune a system to interpret an EPG but not 'change' it. Say I ask my PVR to record Dr Who on Thursday night at 7pm (1) - if a plane crashes at Heathrow at 6:30pm and there is live coverage; Dr Who is cancelled. So when I go and look at the EPG I see Dr Who has gone - what's up with that then? Am I an idiot? I'm sure it was there... Actually I still want to see the original EPG data supplemented with broadcast data. A different scenario is that the storyline in a show shows events that are deemed inappropriate (eg showing 'Airplane' the week of 9/11) so the schedule is changed a couple of days in advance - the EPG should change and may make mention in the comments of replacing previously scheduled programmes. (1) OK, for the record: I actually say 'record Dr Who whenever it's on and just get one copy of each episode - go sort it out' and watch it when it appears in my list. That's the benefit of geeky OSS for you though. The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying oh, hey, you know that programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few seconds, so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start. It's how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables. broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere, which is not quite So they don't publish it - they broadcast it - for free!! Using the same technology you use to pick up the TV signal. In a well defined manner. The buggers! Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice is using a listings guide that's based on the same information that's provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the air with DTT. That seems quite like trying to have it both ways. See above - I think there are 2 ways for 2 different things. In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC. Always good. I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to acknowledge mistakes and provide accuracy in the data. The data isn't any more of a mistake than any Gantt chart in existence. It's an estimate with well bounded error bars (+/- 5 minutes). Surely you don't go back and lie about the estimates you gave people do you? As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S as an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions. ***WHAT*** So basically: My PVR is too brain-dead to pick up information from a different software component and would all broadcasters, all over the world stop broadcasting changes live, over the air with the programmes and move to a centralised, polled. unicast model so we don't have to change our code? Although that does sound like Microsoft software engineers. Whilst speaking to them wrt a major UK Telco they would often seem to wonder if we could just change the PSTN to fit the way their instant messenger application worked... Can you feel the sympathy? grin David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
On Jan 24, 2008 3:31 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere, which is not quite Can I assume the word missing from the end of your sentence was true? If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1]. [...] In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC. (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.) I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to acknowledge mistakes and provide accuracy in the data. If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the Memorandum of Understanding and get MS to sort it out. It's not being nobbled. The information you want isn't out there. It may exist internally, but it's not for public consumption. The standard method[2] is to get billed timings from the schedule in advance, and then look for when that event's 'running' in the EIT. From what you've said so far, Microsoft have chosen to do it a different way in Media Center. As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S as an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions. It took quite a lot of effort to get them to recognise the damn radio stations! ...so do you think the broadcasters should try to make up for your media player's shortcomings? Or should Microsoft perhaps make their software more aware of the way things are done around here? - martin [1] Other listings magazines are available. [2] cf. the 'digital tick' specs to which I referred in an earlier message. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Brian Butterworth wrote: I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to acknowledge mistakes and provide accuracy in the data. Accuracy is impractical. Locking the start time of programmes to a second-precise pre-published schedule would cause chaos. I mean, think how often Radio 4 presenters crash the pips. If you had a channel with no live content, no continuity, no opt-outs and no last-minute programming changes then you might have a chance, but you can't design the EPG system for an entire platform around those limitations. So instead, you engineer a compromise. The schedule becomes a guideline - people can use it for planning their viewing, and PVRs can use it to try and stop you from booking more simultaneous recordings than you have tuners, and as a way to plan when to switch themselves on and tune in. Then you have a precisely-timed trigger signal (EIT P/F on Freeview) that the PVR can use to tell when the programme starts and ends. That way the broadcaster retains the flexibility to change the schedule as often as they need to, while the consumer still gets accurate recordings. You appear to be asking for last-minute schedule changes to be published separately. Well, you could do that, but the system I just described is better*, so that's what's been implemented. *it allows PVRs to behave correctly even when programmes overrun indefinitely and without prior warning, for example. If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the Memorandum of Understanding and get MS to sort it out. Do you really need a letter saying that WMC has not been certified as compliant with the Freeview Playback standard? Doesn't the absence of a Freeview Playback badge on WMC-based devices mean that Microsoft already know? I think that the core issue here is your assertion that published schedules should be as precise as possible, and updated as often as necessary. I don't think that most people expect that to be the case, and I don't personally see a compelling argument for making it so. If accurate Freeview recording from WMC is important to you, I would suggest that you direct your efforts towards getting Microsoft to implement it using the existing standards, and ideally get WMC certified by the DTG while they're at it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/papers/pdffiles/ibc99pl.pdf might be of interest to people following this discussion. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
My cheapo Freeview PVR has an option to record a number of minutes either side of a programme. That works for me. J -- Jason Cartwright Web Specialist, EMEA Marketing [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44(0)2070313161 On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A small question. There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as published! A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO. Programmes in this slot actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with Newsnight starting at 10:33pm. The schedule is shown in the newspapers, on the BBC site, and (most importantly) fed to EPG (ie, Sky's and the one used by Windows Media Center) always says 10pm-10:30pm for whatever programme is on. Obviously the late start is because people often watch the news headlines on BBC ONE and then turn over to 'TWO for some entertainment, thus the delayed start. Also, the junction between the end of the regional news on BBC ONE matches the start of Newsnight, which also makes sense. I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough, but if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get an overrun from the previous programme and miss the end. Can something be done with the source data to fix this?
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A small question. There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as published! A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO. Programmes in this slot actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with Newsnight starting at 10:33pm. [...] I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough, but if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get an overrun from the previous programme and miss the end. Can something be done with the source data to fix this? To answer your question, something is already being done. - For major networks in the UK, the Present/Following information in the SI tables should roll over just before the actual programme start time. In some cases this is triggered directly from the playout system. Keep an eye on when Newsnight is on 'now' on a Freeview box to see this in action. - A decent PVR should pay attention to this, and record the entirety of the event - ie from when it becomes the 'present' event, to when it's no longer running. To get a 'digital tick', recievers should adhere to http://www.dtg.org.uk/testing/conformance.html , and the document UK Digital TV Receiver Recommendations, which states this. (An event can actually be 'paused', for example, during a commercial break, but I think it's pretty obvious why none of the broadcasters would want to do this.) - However, on Sky, the accurate EIT P/F is not carried across multiplexes, so your Sky+ box may just record from the billed start time. It should record all the way to the end, though - so with the 10pm programme, you may get a few minutes of the preceding programme, but it should continue to record until 10.32pm, when the next event starts. The second-accurate schedules of programmes could be considered to be commercially sensitive, so the broadcasters aren't so keen on publishing them in advance (for example, a broadcaster wouldn't want a competitor knowing about stunts where one programme will start a little early, or follow directly on from the previous with no commercial break, in order to stop viewers switching over to the big new show on the other side). If your PVR hasn't quite caught up with these developments though, you could perhaps try what Jason's suggested and add a couple of minutes either side. Hope this helps, - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
I can do that too, but it's not really user friendly in the traditional sense. On 23/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My cheapo Freeview PVR has an option to record a number of minutes either side of a programme. That works for me. J -- Jason Cartwright Web Specialist, EMEA Marketing [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44(0)2070313161 On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A small question. There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as published! A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO. Programmes in this slot actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with Newsnight starting at 10:33pm. The schedule is shown in the newspapers, on the BBC site, and (most importantly) fed to EPG (ie, Sky's and the one used by Windows Media Center) always says 10pm-10:30pm for whatever programme is on. Obviously the late start is because people often watch the news headlines on BBC ONE and then turn over to 'TWO for some entertainment, thus the delayed start. Also, the junction between the end of the regional news on BBC ONE matches the start of Newsnight, which also makes sense. I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough, but if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get an overrun from the previous programme and miss the end. Can something be done with the source data to fix this? -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Martin, Thanks very much for the reply. On 23/01/2008, Martin Deutsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A small question. There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as published! A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO. Programmes in this slot actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with Newsnight starting at 10:33pm. [...] I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough, but if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get an overrun from the previous programme and miss the end. Can something be done with the source data to fix this? To answer your question, something is already being done. - For major networks in the UK, the Present/Following information in the SI tables should roll over just before the actual programme start time. In some cases this is triggered directly from the playout system. Keep an eye on when Newsnight is on 'now' on a Freeview box to see this in action. I had noticed that this happens on all Freeview boxes. It used to be a nightmare before at program junctions as the NOW and NEXT would become the same. - A decent PVR should pay attention to this, and record the entirety of the event - ie from when it becomes the 'present' event, to when it's no longer running. To get a 'digital tick', recievers should adhere to http://www.dtg.org.uk/testing/conformance.html , and the document UK Digital TV Receiver Recommendations, which states this. (An event can actually be 'paused', for example, during a commercial break, but I think it's pretty obvious why none of the broadcasters would want to do this.) I'm using the Windows Vista Ultimate Media Center, which is the best PVR I have ever used. A Sky HD box seems like a ZX Spectrum by comparision. It's connected to the TV using DVI and I've got a terrabyte to store stuff on. But, as it a Microsoft product, it's only the Haupagge card that is approved. The EPG is fed from the Digiguide people, who have a feed directly from the BBC. The Microsoft system relys on the EPG, but it can do brilliant tricks when you need to resole a clash (there is a limit of two decoders) like spot other showing of the same epsiode, and you can set series priorites. Additionly it remembers your series records and automatically picks up the same one next season. - However, on Sky, the accurate EIT P/F is not carried across multiplexes, so your Sky+ box may just record from the billed start time. It should record all the way to the end, though - so with the 10pm programme, you may get a few minutes of the preceding programme, but it should continue to record until 10.32pm, when the next event starts. Sky+ boxes have an automatic facility that records an extra few minutes if it can too. The second-accurate schedules of programmes could be considered to be commercially sensitive, so the broadcasters aren't so keen on publishing them in advance (for example, a broadcaster wouldn't want a competitor knowing about stunts where one programme will start a little early, or follow directly on from the previous with no commercial break, in order to stop viewers switching over to the big new show on the other side). It's hardly a secret about these junctions, they happen every single day and they can be seen on the live BARB graphs. It seems incredible to me that the BBC is DELIBERATELY providing me (via Microsoft) with inaccurate information. If your PVR hasn't quite caught up with these developments though, you could perhaps try what Jason's suggested and add a couple of minutes either side. *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing poisoned information. Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose? Hope this helps, - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings
Brian Butterworth wrote: It seems incredible to me that the BBC is DELIBERATELY providing me (via Microsoft) with inaccurate information. If you were to start by assuming that inaccuracies in the EPG data provided by the BBC were there for reasons other than to screw over Windows Media Center users, you might be more likely to come up with a reasonable explanation for the behaviour. *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing poisoned information. Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose? Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software? As Martin describes, there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other broadcaster for this. Given how much you know about broadcasting, I am certain that you are aware of the conceptual and practical differences between programme schedules published a week or more in advance, and actual playout times, which can vary considerably, especially (but by no means exclusively) if live events overrun. I don't know much about Digiguide, but it seems probable to me that they are only providing you with the former information. Again, I find it hard to understand how the BBC is to blame for this. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
