RE: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I do put a certain amount of thought into my responses although
at times I might lose patience,Khazeh: In other words however
lowly i am i wish to identify with the position of the martyred uncle of
the Bab and i would beg and beseech once again brother Gilberto to
consider the real implications of this:***
A word of recantation from you is
sufficient to set you free and ensure your return, with honours, to your native
city. I pledge my word that, should you be willing to acquiesce, the remaining
days of your life will be spent with honour and dignity under the sheltering
shadow of your sovereign." "Your Excellency," boldly replied Haji Mirza Siyyid
Ali, "if others before me, who quaffed joyously the cup of martyrdom, have
chosen to reject an appeal such as the one you now make to me, know of a
certainty that I am no less eager to decline such a request. My repudiation of
the truths enshrined in this Revelation would be tantamount to a rejection of
all the Revelations that have preceded it. To refuse to acknowledge the Mission
of the Siyyid-i-Bb would be to apostatise from the Faith of my forefathers and
to deny the Divine character of the Message which Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, and
all the Prophets of the past have revealed. God knows that whatever I have heard
and read concerning the sayings and doings of those Messengers, I have been
privileged to witness the same from this Youth, this beloved Kinsman of mine,
from His earliest boyhood to this, the thirtieth year of His life. Everything in
Him reminds me of His illustrious Ancestor and of the imams of His Faith whose
lives our recorded traditions have portrayed. I only request of you that you
allow me to bethe first to lay down my life in the path of my beloved
Kinsman."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers,
p. 447)
Ok. I"ve read that. Right now, it is just a claim. There is no
evidence for it. There is no compelling reason to believe it.So I
basically have to just leave it alone.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto
When this lowly one quoted the above,
you reply:
***
Right now, it is just a claim. There is no
evidence for it. There is no compelling reason to believe it.***
i wonder, dear Gilberto, as
you typed the above, did you really think about it.
The evidence [the life-long evidence of
the maternal uncle of the Bab] is just a ***claim***!. The Bab's uncle
was descended by a lineal succession from the Imam Husayn. He gave his life. His
thoughtful loving head was beheaded [as indeed 20, 000 died and recently even
young women in Shiraz died...] all this is a ***CLAIM*** and we sitting
in the cerebral West write on our keyboards and send it across the world
...***Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is no
compelling reason to believe it.
Praise be to God or as i say since my
childhood Subh.aan Allah!
Even the Voice of Muhammad, the Prophet of
God was heard in this Revelation:[maybe others on this list would be glad to
hear these sacred quotations...even if you see no evidence as yet...for the
"claim"
***Make this known unto them, that nothing
whatsoever may shut them out from Thy Beauty, in these days whereon...Thy Friend
(Muhammad) crieth out: "Glory be to Thee, O Thou the Best-Beloved, for
that Thou hast uncovered Thy Beauty, and written down for Thy chosen ones what
will cause them to attain unto the seat of the revelation of Thy Most Great
Name,
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and
Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 68)
**BECAUSE of you the Apostle (Muhammad)
lamented, and the Chaste One (Fatimih) cried out, and the countries were
laid waste, and darkness fell upon all regions.
(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of
Baha'u'llah, p. 103)
**2.2Thou hast, O Chief, committed
that which hath caused Muhammad, the Apostle of God, to lament
inthe most sublime Paradise. The world hath made thee proud, so much so
that thou hast turned away from the Face through whose brightness the Concourse
on high hath been illumined. Soon thou shalt find thyself in manifest
loss!
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the
Lord of Hosts, p. 142)
May God in His all-embracing Love and
Rah.mat open our eyes all to see the "compelling" evidence.
In the words of the Prophet Elisha praying
in the Bible:
**And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his
eyes, that he may see.** 2 Kings 6:17
humbly sorry Gilberto you moved me
provoked me to write with such candour but I love you and pray for you ...khazeh
i am myself nothing but your colleague servant in this journey of
life
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Re: spiritual validity? was Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Hi, Gilberto, At 01:43 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote: What do you mean by spiritual validity. Is it about becoming a certain kind of person? Reaching enlightenment? Salvation? Something else? In this case, I meant whatever God might consider to be a valid construction of reality. Although we humans are limited by the descriptions provided within specific narratives, God has no such limitations. Perhaps even contradictory narratives might, from God's standpoint, be correct. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/24/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [quoting from] (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 447) Gilberto: Ok. Ive read that. Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is no compelling reason to believe it. So I basically have to just leave it alone. Khazeh: Dear Gilberto When this lowly one quoted the above, you reply: *** Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is no compelling reason to believe it.*** Khazeh: i wonder, dear Gilberto, as you typed the above, did you really think about it. The evidence [the life-long evidence of the maternal uncle of the Bab] is just a ***claim***!. Gilberto: Yes. Khazeh: The Bab's uncle was descended by a lineal succession from the Imam Husayn. He gave his life. His thoughtful loving head was beheaded [as indeed 20, 000 died and recently even young women in Shiraz died...] all this is a ***CLAIM*** Gilberto: Yes. There are many many people who are descended from the prophet Muhammad. (saaws) Descent from the prophet or Hussain does not confer infallibility. The Ayatollah Khomeini is also descended from the prophet. Many people in the Iranian Muslim religious establishment are also descended from the prophet through Hussein. There are many Sunni religious figures who are descended from the prophet. I even read an article explaining that John Kerry (along with a chunk of European royalty) are also descended from the Prophet Muhammad. and we sitting in the cerebral West write on our keyboards and send it across the world ...***Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is no compelling reason to believe it. If you want to call it cerebral, that's ok. Personally, I don't think that arguing in an emotional mode is very persuasive or compelling. I think I could fairly say that sometimes you write in a very sweet, emotional, flowery style. And it makes me think Khazeh is a nice guy but it doesn't make me think I should therefore believe the arguments he is making. ESpecially because there are also Christians who are sweet and nice. And there are Muslims who are sweet and nice. And there are Buddhists who are sweet and nice. etc. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: spiritual validity? was Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/24/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 01:43 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote: What do you mean by spiritual validity. Is it about becoming a certain kind of person? Reaching enlightenment? Salvation? Something else? In this case, I meant whatever God might consider to be a valid construction of reality. Although we humans are limited by the descriptions provided within specific narratives, God has no such limitations. Perhaps even contradictory narratives might, from God's standpoint, be correct. Gilberto: Do you have an example in mind for how two contradictory narratives would both be correct? I would be tempted to say that if they are both correct, then the contradiction isn't real. And vice versa. Peace Gilberto -- There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/24/05, Michael Alcorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all, I believe the following is pertinent to this thread: If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self, and if such a man should reply and say: Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal, such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 143) I think that makes sense. But I would probably read it in a different way. In the Bible there is also a (in my opinion) similar passage about individual accountability. Romans 1 [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; But what I would say is that we have little/no excuse when it comes to the eternal qualities. But when it comes to the details which change from day to day those actually *do* depend on all sorts of extraneous factors. And it is hard to imagine people being held accountable for those. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: spiritual validity? was Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto, At 05:49 AM 10/24/2005, you wrote: Do you have an example in mind for how two contradictory narratives would both be correct? I would be tempted to say that if they are both correct, then the contradiction isn't real. And vice versa. Yes. 1. There is a God (Semitic religions) ... There is no God (most Buddhisms) 2. There is no metempsychosis (`Abdu'l-Baha) ... There is metempsychosis (Vedanta) 3. Jesus is the Alpha, the Omega, and the Way (New Testament) ... Muhammad is the Seal (Qur'an) 3. The end (Jesus as the Way or Muhammad as the Seal) ... The beginning (progressive and relative fulfillment) Narratives often contradict. Other narratives, such as those in the Baha'i texts, may sometimes attempt to explain those contradictions. However, since contradiction is nominal and literary, the contradictions remain in spite of any new narratives which try to resolve them. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Do you think it is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it? Dear Gilberto, Yes, it's possible. I became a Baha'i by reading and reading Baha'i books, specially those revealed by the Central Figures of the Faith. I could understand them well and that's why I decided to become a Baha'i in my late teens. regards, Firouz The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Fwd: Interesting thread
Such orders are present in many Holy Books of God, including Qur'an, and the *context* in which such instructions were given usually warrant God's reason for order them. | |I agree. I wasn't refering to the cases of fire and brimstone |raining down on folks from heaven or heavenly plagues. I was |talking about those cases where according to the Bible, God |commands the children of Israel to wipe out entire |populations, men, women, children, infants, livestock. |Everything that has breath. Just read the book of Joshua for example. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
This is precisely why Baha'u'llah has come - to remove those elements which cause confusion. - Original Message - From: Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:06 PM Subject: RE: Fwd: Interesting thread Such orders are present in many Holy Books of God, including Qur'an, and the *context* in which such instructions were given usually warrant God's reason for order them. | |I agree. I wasn't refering to the cases of fire and brimstone |raining down on folks from heaven or heavenly plagues. I was |talking about those cases where according to the Bible, God |commands the children of Israel to wipe out entire |populations, men, women, children, infants, livestock. |Everything that has breath. Just read the book of Joshua for example. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Sure. So we agree?!? -Gilberto On 10/24/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excellent! You say that Qur'an's instruction to kill was killing of non-believers who waged war against Muhammad or Muslims. That's the context I was referring to. |Ordinary warfare where you make sure not to |kill non-combatants, where you allow the enemy to surrender, |where you cease hostilities when your opponent does, etc. is |not the same thing as the genocides commanded in the Bible. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/22/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human life, are related to the essential fundamental principles. So are you saying that it is an essential fundamental principle to kill apostates? No. In the previous e-mail I spelled out what I meant and you just ignored it. I'm saying, roughly, essentially, that human life has a constant value. And so we should be able to come up with moral principles which tell us when it is just or unjust to take a life. And those principles should not just arbitrarily change in 1844. That's what I'm saying. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Good morning,
I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking at it is all that compelling either. Maybe part of the problem with your explanations (which to me lack clarity anyway) is that they are not all that well thought-out in the *right way*. I suggest, for you message to come across better and more convincing, that you read more writings of Baha'u'llah and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you should read from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you can base your arguments offlegitimateBaha'i point-of-view. It would come across more genuine that way.
A basic Baha'i principle is Progressive Revelation, but you have not been able to articulate what the Baha'i view of this principle really is. Your argumentsagainstProgressive Revelation don't come across because you are basing your arguments off of an interpretation of "Progressive Revelation" that Baha'is ourselves don't accept or believe in ourselves .
Another basic Baha'i principle is oneness of Religions, but you have not been able to articualte this either, your arguments against our view don't come across because you aren't arguing *against* our view of it anyway, you are arguing against a hypothetical concept of oneness of religions that we don't accept ourselves.
I think this is the case for every single Baha'i Principle we've discussed.
Just some advice,
Hajir
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning, Good morning : ) Gilberto: I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me. Hajir: Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking at it is all that compelling either. Gilberto: I'm not trying to convert you. Hajir: Maybe part of the problem with your explanations (which to me lack clarity anyway) is that they are not all that well thought-out in the *right way*. I suggest, for you message to come across better and more convincing, that you read more writings of Baha'u'llah and understand them the way we understand them. I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahai trying to better understand the Bahai faith. Then, you should read from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you can base your arguments off legitimate Baha'i point-of-view. Gilberto: I might just take you up on that. Im curious though. Do you think it is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it? Hajir: A basic Baha'i principle is Progressive Revelation, but you have not been able to articulate what the Baha'i view of this principle really is. Your arguments against Progressive Revelation don't come across because you are basing your arguments off of an interpretation of Progressive Revelation that Baha'is ourselves don't accept or believe in ourselves . Gilberto: Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you can point to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation? Hajir: Another basic Baha'i principle is oneness of Religions, but you have not been able to articualte this either, your arguments against our view don't come across because you aren't arguing *against* our view of it anyway, you are arguing against a hypothetical concept of oneness of religions that we don't accept ourselves. Gilberto: I honestly don't remember addressing the idea of oneness of religions at all very recently. I wonder what you are refering to. And again, I wonder if you have specific, misstatements, lies, errors, omissions in mind? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto: I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahaitrying to better understand the Bahai faith.
Haj:
Tell me something I don't know. : )
Gilberto:I might just take you up on that. I"m curious though. Do you think itis possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
Haj:
Not sure if you have to believe in it, but you sure do have to see it through its own paradigm. Let me know how I can help.
Gilberto:Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you canpoint to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation?Haj:
Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
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RE: Fwd: Interesting thread
Do you think it is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it? Dear Gilberto, Sure. Especially if one is prepared to listen for the Word of God whether one is certain it can be found there or not. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (question directed at Hajir) Do you think it is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it? Dear Gilberto, Sure. Especially if one is prepared to listen for the Word of God whether one is certain it can be found there or not. Do you think it is possible to understand the Bahai writings without believing in them? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Do you think it is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it? Haj: Not sure if you have to believe in it, but you sure do have to see it through its own paradigm. Let me know how I can help. Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm? Gilberto: Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you can point to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation? Haj: Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree. Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums is to point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have been saying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that I don't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective, I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais. Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understanding of progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing these issues. But if not that's ok too.) Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Haj: Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Gilberto:Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums isto point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have beensaying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that Idon't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective,I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais.Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understandingof progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing theseissues. But if not that's ok too.)
---
Haj:
I don't think my explanation of the Baha'i view of Progressive Revelation would be all that useful to you, becauseyou would be seeing Progressive Revelation from MY eyes, my paradigm, not the Baha'i Faith's (Baha'u'llah-Abdu'l-Baha-Shoghi Effendi-House of Justice-the Bab).
My explanation of Progressive Revelation would be an introduction to what Baha'u'llah really taught, my view of them. Sure, sinceI (or someone else here) may have read more of the Baha'i writings and may know more about the Baha'i history than you do, I (we) would be able to help you focus in on what the Baha'i Writings mean by saying X and Y.
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RE: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? You'd have to persuade me that there is a a single Muslim paradigm and that this is the same paradigm as the Qur'an itself first. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm? Haj: I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm. So do Bahais understand the Quran? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haj: Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree. Gilberto: Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums is to point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have been saying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that I don't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective, I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais. Gilberto: Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understanding of progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing these issues. But if not that's ok too.) Haj: I don't think my explanation of the Baha'i view of Progressive Revelation would be all that useful to you, because you would be seeing Progressive Revelation from MY eyes, my paradigm, not the Baha'i Faith's (Baha'u'llah-Abdu'l-Baha-Shoghi Effendi-House of Justice-the Bab). But the things I've said about progressive revelation are actually based on things I've read from the writings as well as things I've heard from other Bahais. Peace gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm? Haj: I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm.So do Bahais understand the Quran?PeaceGilberto
I think the real point is that Baha`i and Muslim viewpoints are not the same and cannot be the same.
Main Entry: paradigm Pronunciation: 'per--"dIm, 'pa-r- also -"dimFunction: nounEtymology: Late Latin paradigma, from Greek paradeigma, from paradeiknynai to show side by side, from para- + deiknynai to show -- more at DICTION1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms3 : a philosophical and theor!
etical
framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind,
We do not conjugate and decline the language in the same way, yet to both their use of the language is obvious and proper.
To those who ACCEPT the Bab and Baha`u'llah, the language has changed. There are new tenses to the verbs and cases to the nouns and, in effect, the Covenant which they embrace has been renewed.
Why should one expect the paradigm to remain the same between Baha`i and Muslim, when it does not remain the same no matter how much Muslims insist that the paradigm between Muslims and Christians must be the same - as Muhammed interprets it.
I cannot expect you to embrace my paradigm, no matter how much it would assist the discussion. If you truly embrace my paradigm you are no longer a Muslim.
You asked Kazeh why if he loved Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is the answer - paradigm shift has occured.
This does not mean interfaith dialogue is impossible, it just means one must permit a small amount of paradigm shift to see some arguments presented. One has to approach interfaith dialogue without fear.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Well, I'm not so sure that there is a Muslim paradigm as such: there is a Wahhabi Sunni paradigm, there is a Si`ah paradigm, there is a Sufi/mystical pradigm, a Hanbali Sunni paradigm, a Shafi`i paradigm, etc., etc. For example, my understanding is that for a very simple and straightforward thing as performing the ablutions (wuzu) as stiplulated in Quran 5:8 about washing your hand/forearms to your elbows there are two rather significantly divergent readings of the preposition elA (to): there is a literal reading of to (i.e., was your hands and forearms from the tip of your fingers to your elbows); and a figurative interpretation of to to mean from (i.e., wash your forearms/hands from your elbow up to the tip of your fingertips). Or, 4:62 about obeying God, His messenger, and oli'l-amr; who is oli'l-amr? The Shi`ah gives you one answer, the Sunni another. Very significantly different. And then the most foundational Quran 3:5 about muhkamAt and mutashAbihAt and that God noweth the ta'wil of Quran, etc., etc. I guess I'd to favor to stay with the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of the Quran when They speak. Iskandar On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
So do Bahais understand the Quran?Haj:
See Scott's response.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam wrote: Gilberto: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm? Haj: I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm. Gilberto: So do Bahais understand the Quran? Scott: I think the real point is that Baha`i and Muslim viewpoints are not the same and cannot be the same. Gilberto: I think I was already assuming different paradigms. Main Entry: par·a·digm 1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype 2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms 3 : a philosophical and theor! etical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind, Scott: We do not conjugate and decline the language in the same way, yet to both their use of the language is obvious and proper. To those who ACCEPT the Bab and Baha`u'llah, the language has changed. There are new tenses to the verbs and cases to the nouns and, in effect, the Covenant which they embrace has been renewed. Gilberto: That's kind of interesting. ORiginally I was thinking you were using the wrong definition of paradigm (2 instead of 3) and it is still a bit of a stretch, but I think it *is* true that sometimes it seems to me that Bahais are speaking a very different language. Scott: Why should one expect the paradigm to remain the same between Baha`i and Muslim, when it does not remain the same no matter how much Muslims insist that the paradigm between Muslims and Christians must be the same - as Muhammed interprets it. Gilberto: I've interacted alot more on Christian forums than on Bahai forums but I still haven't had the same kind of communication problems there. Scott: I cannot expect you to embrace my paradigm, no matter how much it would assist the discussion. If you truly embrace my paradigm you are no longer a Muslim. Gilberto: So would you believe that in order to understand the Bahai writings that you have to believe in them? And again I would repeat, in order to understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt a Muslim paradigm? Scott: You asked Kazeh why if he loved Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is the answer - paradigm shift has occured. Gilberto: I think what he said was that he loved Islam with all his heart and soul and mind. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I'm not so sure that there is a Muslim paradigm as such: there is a Wahhabi Sunni paradigm, there is a Si`ah paradigm, there is a Sufi/mystical pradigm, a Hanbali Sunni paradigm, a Shafi`i paradigm, etc., etc. Yes and no. When people say paradigm they don't just mean a single individual's interpretation of a particular question as opposed to someone else's. A paradigm is something bigger, more general. To quote the definition which Scott copied: 3 : a philosophical and theor! etical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind. So for example some broad parameters of a Muslim paradigm of the Quran might be things like the idea that the commandments of the Quran are still valid. Or the idea that the Last Day is really about the end of creation and not just a metaphor for the coming of the next Manifestation. Or the idea that the Quran is the revelation from the last prophet. Those are examples of big ideas which are part of a common Muslim paradigm. These details about wudu or the meaning of specific individual words are not issues of paradigm. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: But the things I've said about progressive revelation are actually based on things I've read from the writings as well as things I've heard from other Bahais. Haj: But they don't look familiar to me the way to characterize them. I don't think I'm alone. Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where Im wrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'm not seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommit something important? Something else? What? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:So would you believe that in
order to understand the Bahai writings that you have to believe in them? And
again I would repeat, in order to understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt
a Muslim paradigm?Scott:You asked Khazeh why if he loved
Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is the answer - paradigm shift has
occurred.Gilberto:I think what he [Khazeh] said was that he loved
Islam with all his heart and soul and
mind.PeaceGilberto
without wishing to enter this arena of discussion
again because its one requirement seems to be instant and rapid response [and
this servant] is used to detailed analysis and reverence and thoughtful
response__ without wishing to re-enter the "foray" again, I [khazeh] would
say something as my humble name is beingmentioned.
All i would say is that Scott [and
Iskandar]seem to have captured the essence of that which I wanted to
convey.
I love with all my heart and soul Islam but I
love with all my heart and soul the Gospel of Saint John and Isaiah and
Jeremiah.
As a Baha'i i love [or I am taught] to love with
all my mind and soul the essence.
Many moons ago i quoted the sacred words of the
Guardian in that he defined the Faith of Baha'u'l llah [as the ESSENCE, THE
PROMISE, THE RECONCILER, AND THE UNIFIER OF ALL Religions] =[a Faith which is at
once the essence, the promise, the reconciler, and the unifier of all
religions(Shoghi Effendi)
of course This
Essence is loved by me with all my heart and
soul.
And
Interestingly the attribute of "essence", the ability to unify and reconcile are
INSEPARABLE from the attribute of the Faith of Baha'u'llah as being the Promised
Day of God__the Day of Eschatological Fulfilment __ the Day of
Qiyaamat
In other words
however lowly i am i wish to identify with the position of the martyred uncle of
the Bab and i would beg and beseech once again brother Gilberto to consider the
real implications of this:
**"Your Excellency," boldly replied
Haji Mirza Siyyid Ali, "if others before me, who quaffed joyously the cup of
martyrdom, have chosen to reject an appeal such as the one you now make to me,
know of a certainty that I am no less eager to decline such a request. My
repudiation of the truths enshrined in this Revelation would be tantamount to a
rejection of all the Revelations that have preceded it. To refuse to acknowledge
the Mission of the Siyyid-i-Bb would be to apostatise from the Faith of my
forefathers and to deny the Divine character of the Message which Muhammad,
Jesus, Moses, and all the Prophets of the past have revealed. God knows that
whatever I have heard and read concerning the sayings and doings of those
Messengers, I have been privileged to witness the same from this Youth, this
beloved Kinsman of mine, from His earliest boyhood to this, the thirtieth year
of His life. Everything in Him reminds me of His illustrious Ancestor and of the
imams of His Faith whose lives our recorded traditions have portrayed. I only
request of you that you allow me to be 448 the first to lay down my
life in the path of my beloved Kinsman."
(Shoghi Effendi, The
Dawn-Breakers, p. 447)
finally i believe the paradigm has
shifted but the essence is from God
hoping for true peace for you dear
Gilberto
khazeh if i do not reply it is
because i think very few indeed read what i write...and what i
quote...
Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways," says Yahweh. (WEB)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. (ASV)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, or your ways
my ways, says the Lord. (BBE)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. (DBY)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (WBS)
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways My ways, saith the LORD. (JPS)
For not My thoughts 'are' your thoughts, Nor your
ways My ways, -- an affirmation of Jehovah, (YLT)
(CEV) The LORD says: "My thoughts and my ways are not
like yours.
(GNB) "My thoughts," says the LORD, "are not like
yours, and my ways are different from yours.
(KJVA) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither
are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(MKJV) For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor
your ways My ways, says Jehovah.
(MSG) "I don't think the way you think. The way you
work isn't the way I work." GOD's Decree.
(SVD)
.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/23/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam wrote: Gilberto: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm? Haj: I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm.Gilberto: So do Bahais understand the Quran?Scott: I think the real point is that Baha`i and Muslim viewpoints are not the same and cannot be the same.Gilberto:I think I was already assuming different paradigms. Main Entry: paradigm 1 : EXAMPLE, P!
ATTERN;
especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype 2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms 3 : a philosophical and theor! etical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind,Scott: We do not conjugate and decline the language inthe same way, yet to both their use of the language is obvious andproper.To those who ACCEPT the Bab and Baha`u'llah, the language has changed.There are new tenses to the verbs and cases to the nouns and, ineffect, the Covenant which they embrace has been renewed.Gilberto:That's kind of interesting. ORiginally I was thinking you were usingthe "wrong" de!
finition
of paradigm (2 instead of 3) and it is still abit of a stretch, but I think it *is* true that sometimes it seems tome that Bahais are speaking a very different language.Scott:Why should one expect the paradigm to remain the same between Baha`iand Muslim, when it does not remain the same no matter how muchMuslims insist that the paradigm between Muslims and Christians mustbe the same - as Muhammed interprets it.Gilberto:I've interacted alot more on Christian forums than on Bahai forums butI still haven't had the same kind of communication problems there.
Scott (in reply):
Granted, but manyChristians will balk to consider the claim of Trinity as a making of partners with God, or concede that Jesus was taken down from the cross alive, or that the Bible as they know it is flawed. These are all evidences of that paradigm shift, of which I spoke.Scott:I cannot expect you to embrace my paradigm, no matter how much itwould assist the discussion. If you truly embrace my paradigm you areno longer a Muslim.Gilberto:So would you believe that in order to understand the Bahai writingsthat you have to believe in them? And again I would repeat, in orderto understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt a Muslim paradigm?Scott:You asked Kazeh why if he loved Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that isthe answer - paradigm shift has occured.Gilberto:I think what he said was that he loved Islam with all his heart andsoul and mind.
Scott (in reply):
Well, to love Islam means to most a love of Muhammed. I know that Islam existed according to Muhammed, before His own revelation. Still Kazeh speaks from a Baha`i paradigm, where the voice of Muhammed clearly speaks of continuation of Prophethood and Revelation.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where I"mwrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'mnot seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommitsomething important? Something else? What?Haj:
Youoversimplify Baha'i principles.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: without wishing to enter this arena of discussion again because its one requirement seems to be instant and rapid response [and this servant] is used to detailed analysis and reverence and thoughtful response__ without wishing to re-enter the foray again, I [khazeh] would say something as my humble name is being mentioned. Dear Khazeh, I know you might not like the pace of discussions but from my perspective I am one of the few Muslims who participates in these forums and on a regular basis am aholding several conversations at once with a group of people. People are always firing back at me in rapid response and I have to do the same just to keep up with the pace of the conversation. I do put a certain amount of thought into my responses although at times I might lose patience, especially if a subject has already been discussed before or if the other person adopts a certain tone. I would say that if the other person wants to control the pace of the conversation, it would be easier for them to wait than for me to wait. Khazeh: All i would say is that Scott [and Iskandar] seem to have captured the essence of that which I wanted to convey. I love with all my heart and soul Islam but I love with all my heart and soul the Gospel of Saint John and Isaiah and Jeremiah. From my perspective that sounds like exageration in the sense that I would say you can only love one thing with all your heart. Khazeh: In other words however lowly i am i wish to identify with the position of the martyred uncle of the Bab and i would beg and beseech once again brother Gilberto to consider the real implications of this: **Your Excellency, boldly replied Haji Mirza Siyyid Ali, if others before me, who quaffed joyously the cup of martyrdom, have chosen to reject an appeal such as the one you now make to me, know of a certainty that I am no less eager to decline such a request. My repudiation of the truths enshrined in this Revelation would be tantamount to a rejection of all the Revelations that have preceded it. To refuse to acknowledge the Mission of the Siyyid-i-Báb would be to apostatise from the Faith of my forefathers and to deny the Divine character of the Message which Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, and all the Prophets of the past have revealed. God knows that whatever I have heard and read concerning the sayings and doings of those Messengers, I have been privileged to witness the same from this Youth, this beloved Kinsman of mine, from His earliest boyhood to this, the thirtieth year of His life. Everything in Him reminds me of His illustrious Ancestor and of the imams of His Faith whose lives our recorded traditions have portrayed. I only request of you that you allow me to be 448 the first to lay down my life in the path of my beloved Kinsman. (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 447) Ok. Ive read that. You've quoted that same passage to me before. Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is no compelling reason to believe it. So I basically have to just leave it alone. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't just be a "fad". I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning based on more fundamental principles.
Gilberto, I agree. For this reason, the Baha'i writings stress that the 'essential' aspect of religion, what in your terminology are the 'fundamental principles', remain the same. What really remains the same is the Essence of God, and these principles are manifestations of His names.
On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious lawschange, I think the periods we are talking about are really not asdistant as you seem to be making out. According to the Bahai faith,isn't the shariah valid until the Bab announced that he was bringing anew revelation in 1844,
So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith,killing apostates is A-OK until 1843.
It is a sign of openmindedness that you are starting to view the world as a Baha'i!Areyou starting to see theTruth of the Baha'iRevelation?
So really, we are talking about you imposing your late20th century values on the mid-19th century which isn't as much of astretch.
The mid 19th century was not all that different in those areas and lands owned and run by Islam from the 7th century. Even today,the middle eastlooks like the 7th century, doesn't it. For Islam to be valid, it has to freeze time to the conditions of the 7th century. This is why we have the Baha'i Revelation, so that civilization may continue to grow.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/22/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't just be a fad. I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning based on more fundamental principles. Hajir: Gilberto, I agree. For this reason, the Baha'i writings stress that the 'essential' aspect of religion, what in your terminology are the 'fundamental principles', remain the same. No. But there are parts of the shariah which I would include in that fundamental essential aspect but which Bahais would not. For example, I would say that properly understood, both the existence of slavery and its abolition flow out of those fundamental principles. But for Bahais this is not the case. I would say that genocide is always wrong, but some Bahais (like some Christians) have argued that some genocides (like those attributed to God in the OT) are ok. Gilberto: On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious laws change, I think the periods we are talking about are really not as distant as you seem to be making out. According to the Bahai faith, isn't the shariah valid until the Bab announced that he was bringing a new revelation in 1844, So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith, killing apostates is A-OK until 1843. Hajir: It is a sign of openmindedness that you are starting to view the world as a Baha'i! Are you starting to see the Truth of the Baha'i Revelation? ??? No I strongly disagree with the hypothetical situation I described above. I don't think fundamental moral principles should change with the calendar. If it is wrong to kill people for their religious beliefs in 1844 then it is wrong to kill people for their religious beliefs in 1843. I would say that the Bahais are reading the hadith in the most unflattering light with the intention of trying to discredit Islam. And my response is that if that's what they are trying to do then it becomes their responsibility to defend killing apostates in 1843. Personally, I think it makes more sense to try to resove the apparent difficulty by appealing to a single set of basic moral principles which can explain why a certain behavior was justifiable in one context even though such contexts might be rare today. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/22/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When God punishes man for his perversity, that is not called genocide. genocide is done by man to man. I agree. I wasn't refering to the cases of fire and brimstone raining down on folks from heaven or heavenly plagues. I was talking about those cases where according to the Bible, God commands the children of Israel to wipe out entire populations, men, women, children, infants, livestock. Everything that has breath. Just read the book of Joshua for example. Peace Gilberto |I would say that genocide is always wrong, but some Bahais (like some |Christians) have argued that some genocides (like those |attributed to God in the OT) are ok. | The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto,
But there are parts of the shariah which I would include in that fundamental
essential aspect but which Bahais would not.
What is a fundamental essential aspect of the Islamic law that I as a Baha'i disagreed was essential? All religions teach:
1. pure and kind heartedness
2. justice
3. man created by God
4. love of God
5. love of man6. selflessness and elimination of ego and selfishness
7. importance of works
8. search for God
9. obeying the law of God
10. importance of prayer
11. helping the poor
12. doing unto others like doing unto self
13. elimination of hypocrisy
14. teaching cause of God
15. etc. etc.
For example, I would say that properly understood, both the existence of slavery and its abolition flow out of those fundamental principles. But for Bahais this is not the case.
I also think everything flows out of the fundamental principles.
I would say that genocide is always wrong, but some Bahais (like some Christians) have argued that some genocides (like those attributed to God in the OT) are ok.
How do you presume you know the exact circumstance for the commandment of God made thousands of years ago?
On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious laws change, I think the periods we are talking about are really not as distant as you seem to be making out.
Since the essentials don't change, I don't see this as a problem. God makes the decision when to change the non-essential religious laws that are borne out of those essential teachings. And it is God who decides which specific non-essential laws are appropriate, not you or me.
Unless of course you claim to the mihdi of Islam and are advancing your own claim, and now deem the shariah death penalty for apostates no longer valid or restricted to very rare situations.
So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith, killing apostates is A-OK until 1843.There was a justification for it until 1843, and the justification in my view was to prevent people from making false claims to revelation from God. This rule allowed the Bab to declare Himself without being lost in the crowd of too many false claimants. But since I am not God, I cannot tell you whether this is the only reason. What I *can* tell you for sure is that this law is not part of the Baha'i Law, and is therefore no longer valid for this day and age. Even proto-Baha'is like agnostics, Christians, Jews, and some Muslims agree that it is outdated.
I don't think fundamental moral principles should change with the calendar.
Neither do I. But I don't think the Islamic rule to kill apostates is an essential fundamental teaching of Islam or religion in general. It is one of those laws that had a specific purpose, but this specific scenario is now obviously lost to Islam. And there isn't one entity, one leader, with the authority to make a conclusive decisive decision about this rule, such that it would apply to all Muslims. There is no way that you, if you claim to be a kind of a mihdi, bring together the Shi'a and the Sunni to both agree to throw this rule on apostates out the window, or to make it so specific that it is no longer exercised. Shi'as even today sentence Baha'is to death based on this Hadith.
Hajir
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Hajir, I think the following is pretty repetitive on my part.. I think there is a core idea behind most of the responses which I'm trying to get across and came up in different ways. On 10/22/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: But there are parts of the shariah which I would include in that fundamental essential aspect but which Bahais would not. Hajir: What is a fundamental essential aspect of the Islamic law that I as a Baha'i disagreed was essential? I gave you an example... Gilberto: For example, I would say that properly understood, both the existence of slavery and its abolition flow out of those fundamental principles. But for Bahais this is not the case. Hajir: I also think everything flows out of the fundamental principles. I've discussed this issue before with other Bahais but maybe you are different. Let me ask you. Do you think slavery is wrong? And if so why? Gilberto: I would say that genocide is always wrong, but some Bahais (like some Christians) have argued that some genocides (like those attributed to God in the OT) are ok. Hajir: How do you presume you know the exact circumstance for the commandment of God made thousands of years ago? Gilberto: I don't start with the assupmtion that the Bible is in its entirety the word of God. It needs to be examined to see if it makes sense. And you might call it presumtuous but I feel comfortable sticking to the rule of thumb that genocide is generally wrong. (Maybe you could come up with a bizzare hypothetical situation where genocide might prevent a much greater harm from resulting but I don't think that applies in the OT) Gilberto: On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious laws change, I think the periods we are talking about are really not as distant as you seem to be making out. Hajir: Since the essentials don't change, I don't see this as a problem. The point was that from a Bahai perspective (at least as I understand it) the rules change when the Manifestation says so. But in some cases it seems a bit too much like Simon Says for my taste. As if at one point slavery was 100% A-Ok, and then a moment later it was 100% totally wrong. That is weird when I think about it. Hajir: God makes the decision when to change the non-essential religious laws that are borne out of those essential teachings. Gilberto: I would say that people have the capacity to reason morally based on the essential moral principles. That's why there was an abolitionist movement in the West which started before Bahaullah. Hajir: And it is God who decides which specific non-essential laws are appropriate, not you or me. Gilberto: I think God informed us of the essential principles in the first place, and he gave us an intellect and the capacity to reason based on those essential principles. Unless of course you claim to the mihdi of Islam and are advancing your own claim, and now deem the shariah death penalty for apostates no longer valid or restricted to very rare situations. Gilberto: I think that is reasonable. The shariah isn't supposed to be applied in a stupid simplistic way. The various punishments have certain conditions. Gilberto: So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith, killing apostates is A-OK until 1843. Hajir: There was a justification for it until 1843, and the justification in my view was to prevent people from making false claims to revelation from God. Gilberto: That isn't a very convincing reason to me. People made all sorts of false claims before 1843 and after 1843. Hajir: This rule allowed the Bab to declare Himself without being lost in the crowd of too many false claimants. I think there are ALOT of claimants of all kinds even today if you really look. Check out. http://unusualchurches.blogspot.com/ Gilberto: I don't think fundamental moral principles should change with the calendar. Hajir: Neither do I. But I don't think the Islamic rule to kill apostates is an essential fundamental teaching of Islam or religion in general. I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human life, are related to the essential fundamental principles. Human life didn't suddenly become more valuable in 1844. So if it was justifiable to kill another human being in situation X in 1843 it should be justifiable to kill another human being in situation X in 1844. (and vice versa) If it is not justifiable to kill another human being in situation Y in 1844 then it is also not justifiable to kill another human being in situation Y in 1843. (and vice versa). Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto, I'm surprised you haven't brought up the concept of abrogation 'naskh'and progressive revelation within the Qur'an itself. Why do you object to progressive revelation and abrogation by Baha'i Writings over the Qur'an, but hide the issues over abrogration and progressive revelation within the Qur'an itself? It seems you are trying to hide away from all the evidences supporting Baha'u'llah as fulfillment of the Qur'anic Revelation. Honestly, in your heart, your qalb, don't youfeel that Baha'u'llahis right, and that you are really turning your back on God's Cause, and instead of helping it advance and grow, you are really working to stop the advancement of the Cause of God? Hajir --- major issue in Qur'anic interpretation is that of abrogation - Naskh. Within the Qur'an itself are statements which offset others, but according to the doctrine of abrogation the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies. The Muslim argument is that the abrogated verses were only meant for specific, temporary situations. We have seen that the revelation of the Qur'an is grounded in the historical circumstances of the life and career of Muhammad, and so there is a progressive element in doctrine of Islam's holy book. Situations change and develop, and since the Qur'an reflects this, its teachings changed with the circumstance at hand. At the most obvious level we can see this in the fact that in the early years of Islam, Muhammad was a minority preacher in Mecca, concerning himself with almost solely theological and moral/social issues, but when he moved to Medina, he became the Governmental Executive, and so his rev! elations began to address legal, political and economic matters. The Qur'an explains the practice of abrogation by referring to the sovereignty of God. Yusuf Ali says: For: 2.106 The word which I have translated by the word 'revelations' is Ayat... It is not only used for verses of the Quran, but in a general sense for God's revelations, as in ii. 39 and for other Signs of God in history or nature, or miracles, as in ii. 61. It has even been used for human signs and tokens of wonder, as, for example, monuments or landmarks built by the ancient people of AD (xxvi. 128). What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means tht God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its Form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammad. Some commentators apply it also to the Ayat of the Quran. There is nothing derogatory in this if we believe in progressive revelation. In iii. 7 we are told distinctly about the Quran, that some of its verses are basic or fundamental, and others are allegorical, and it is mischievous! to treat the allegorical verses and follow them (literally). On the other hand, it is absurd to treat such a verse as ii. 115 as if it were abrogated by ii. 144 about the Qibla. We turn to the Qibla, but we do not believe that God is only in one place. He is everywhere. As can be seen, some Muslims believe that this verse refers to Jewish and Christian Scriptures. However, it is not the only verse that impinges on this subject, and these others indicate that what is involved is abrogation of the Qur'an. For: 16.101 ... The doctrine of progressive revelation from age to age and time to time does not mean that Allah's fundamental Law changes. It is not fair to charge a Prophet of Allah with forgery because the Message as revealed to him is in a different form from that revealed before, when the core of the Truth is the same, for it comes from Allah. In the Hadith, we find reference to abrogation which specifically relates this practice to the Qur'an. Another text concerns Surah 2:106; a Qur'anic reciter was supposed to have memorised every revelation from Muhammad, so what was under consideration in this text was whether he should have deleted those verses which had been cancelled. Finally, there are Hadith texts which settle the issue that abrogation relates to the Qur'an itself, rather than to the holy scriptures of the Jews and Christians (or anyone else for that matter). The Hadith illustrates our earlier point about the progressive character of Qur'anic revelation, and how an aspect of this related to the changed conditions of Muhammad after the Hegira. The classic example often used by Muslim exegetes to explain the mechanics of abrogation is found with respect to the widow's bequest. To understand what this involves, we can examine the fact that Islam makes a great point in portraying itself as a 'mercy' to Mankind, and part of this is that is does not burden believers with too much ritual obligation. For example, Surah 73 begins in vs. 2 - 4, by commanding Believers to spend a considerable portion of the night in prayer, but ayah 20 abrogates this. S. 43:89 orders that polytheists be let alone, however, S. 2:190-191 commands
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human life, are related to the essential fundamental principles.
So are you saying that it is an essential fundamental principle to kill apostates?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I wouldn't want to impose my 21st century values, sensibilities, ethics, standards, etc. upon God nor upon His Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century. If the Prophet Muhmmad said it (and I have no compelling reason that He didn't), then it was the Will of God for Him to make that statement at that time. God doeth whatsoever He willeth and so does His Manifestation or the Prophet. Iskandar Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your attempts at clarifying the issue; but, with all due respect, I'm not persuaded yet that the Bukhari hadith that Hajir mentioned is fake. But I'd love to be able to belive what you say below. I'm not trying to argue that the hadith is fake. But if it is, that just makes a certain argument easier. So now we can consider the alternative. I've already taken a stab at it. So now the question goes to you. If you really believe that Muhammad said this and you also believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, then this isn't just a Muslim burden to try to justify the statement found in the hadith. How do you as a Bahai justify the statement? -Gilberto Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviousl y and clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation. Personally, I would want to avoid fundamentalism and a certain narrow minded approach. For most questions, it generally isn't a good idea to whip out the first passage in the Quran or hadith which you think might apply, and interpret it in the first way which occurs to you. The wiser and more intelligent approach would be to look at all the different texts which apply, and try to understand what they say collectively. And make sure you understand them properly, and make sure you understand the real-world situation you want to apply them to. So Unless, of course, one can find another particular hadith that specifically, explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on it an d clarifies it. For example, one passage not just from a hadith but from the Quran which is easy to mention in this regard is: whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men So if you find some isolated hadith saying that its ok to kill someone, a reasonable assumption is that they must have been guilty of murder themselves or mischief in the land or again: [6.151] Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice. So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong . Peace Gilberto On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think tha t the Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelli ng evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But , the fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said i t is not a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love to be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don' t have that proof now. Thanks for being honest. Do you think it is possible to interpret t he hadith in a way which doesn't have the features you find problemati c? For example, is it possible that the young people talked about have some other feature or characteristic not mentioned in the hadith wh ich is the real reason why they would be killed? What I mean is, could it be that there is a very specific group of people who really are/wer e especially dangerous to the faith for reasons which aren't actually mentioned in the hadith, but this group is only described by the hadith. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/21/05, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't want to impose my 21st century values, sensibilities, ethics, standards, etc. upon God nor upon His Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century. If the Prophet Muhmmad said it (and I have no compelling reason that He didn't), then it was the Will of God for Him to make that statement at that time. God doeth whatsoever He willeth and so does His Manifestation or the Prophet. Dear Iskandar, Okay. I see where you are coming from. And I don't expect to convince you otherwise. We should just agree to disagree. I would just prefer to think that values, especially those coming from God, would be more fundamental and long-lasting than what you are describing. Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't just be a fad. I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning based on more fundamental principles. On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious laws change, I think the periods we are talking about are really not as distant as you seem to be making out. According to the Bahai faith, isn't the shariah valid until the Bab announced that he was bringing a new revelation in 1844, So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith, killing apostates is A-OK until 1843. And I don't know how old you are but I would guess that your formative years were still definitely over 5 years ago. So really, we are talking about you imposing your late 20th century values on the mid-19th century which isn't as much of a stretch. Peace Gilberto Iskandar Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your attempts at clarifying the issue; but, with all due respect, I'm not persuaded yet that the Bukhari hadith that Hajir mentioned is fake. But I'd love to be able to belive what you say below. I'm not trying to argue that the hadith is fake. But if it is, that just makes a certain argument easier. So now we can consider the alternative. I've already taken a stab at it. So now the question goes to you. If you really believe that Muhammad said this and you also believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, then this isn't just a Muslim burden to try to justify the statement found in the hadith. How do you as a Bahai justify the statement? -Gilberto Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviousl y and clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation. Personally, I would want to avoid fundamentalism and a certain narrow minded approach. For most questions, it generally isn't a good idea to whip out the first passage in the Quran or hadith which you think might apply, and interpret it in the first way which occurs to you. The wiser and more intelligent approach would be to look at all the different texts which apply, and try to understand what they say collectively. And make sure you understand them properly, and make sure you understand the real-world situation you want to apply them to. So Unless, of course, one can find another particular hadith that specifically, explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on it an d clarifies it. For example, one passage not just from a hadith but from the Quran which is easy to mention in this regard is: whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men So if you find some isolated hadith saying that its ok to kill someone, a reasonable assumption is that they must have been guilty of murder themselves or mischief in the land or again: [6.151] Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice. So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong . Peace Gilberto On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto, At 09:59 PM 10/19/2005, you wrote: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true (although many contain alot of wisdom and truth). I think anyone who believes in anything also disbelieves in the negations of that thing. I don't necessarily. Although the divine worlds be never ending, yet some refer to them as four: The world of time (zamán), which is the one that hath both a beginning and an end; the world of duration (dahr), which hath a beginning, but whose end is not revealed; the world of perpetuity (sarmad), whose beginning is not to be seen but which is known to have an end; and the world of eternity (azal), neither a beginning nor an end of which is visible. Although there are many differing statements as to these points, to recount them in detail would result in weariness. Thus, some have said that the world of perpetuity hath neither beginning nor end, and have named the world of eternity as the invisible, impregnable Empyrean. Others have called these the worlds of the Heavenly Court (Lahút), of the Empyrean Heaven (Jabarút), of the Kingdom of the Angels (Malakút), and of the mortal world (Nasút). -- Bahá'u'lláh, The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, page 25 I don't think that accepting one construction of truth or reality (haqIqat) negates other, even contradictory, constructions of truth. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto, At 11:38 PM 10/19/2005, you wrote: Which religion says all religions are true? Many New Agers hold to that viewpoint, including Adi Da (born Franklin Jones), the founder of the true world-religion of Adidam (formerly Free Daism), and Ken Wilber. Adi Da is Wilber's former guru. Wilber, in his book _Spectrum of Consciousness_, argued that all religions and belief systems, without exception, are true from particular vantage points. He then advocated a full-spectrum (integralist) approach to human development. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:59 PM 10/19/2005, you wrote: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true (although many contain alot of wisdom and truth). I think anyone who believes in anything also disbelieves in the negations of that thing. I don't necessarily. I would say that if you can translate different perspectives into one another in a way which reconciles them, then one doesn't really negate the other. in the first place. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I don't have any particularly compelling reason to belive that the hadith that the authoritative Bukhari cites is fake but I'd love to be see compelling evidence that the Prophet Muhammad never said such a thing. Regards, Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hajir: What about the Hadith? Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Hajir: Please explain this Hadith to me: Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577: I heard the Prophet saying, In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection. You've been asking me alot of questions recently. So let me ask you a few first. Do you believe that this hadith comes from the prophet Muhammad? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Iskandar and Hajir, I really would appreciate a more responsive answer. Do you even believe that it is within the realm of possiblity that Muhammad (saaws) a Manifestation of God, the same God that you believe sent the Bab and Bahaullah to usher in an era of world peace, do you believe that it is within the realm of possibility that Muhammad would have said something like that? Peace Gilberto On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't have any particularly compelling reason to belive that the hadith that the authoritative Bukhari cites is fake but I'd love to be see compelling evidence that the Prophet Muhammad never said such a thing. Regards, Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hajir: What about the Hadith? Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Hajir: Please explain this Hadith to me: Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577: I heard the Prophet saying, In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection. You've been asking me alot of questions recently. So let me ask you a few first. Do you believe that this hadith comes from the prophet Muhammad? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto, At 07:42 AM 10/20/2005, you wrote: I would say that if you can translate different perspectives into one another in a way which reconciles them, then one doesn't really negate the other. in the first place. Wouldn't that need to assume some kind of omniscience? In other words, why would it be significant if we can't translate the narratives? Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/20/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, At 07:42 AM 10/20/2005, you wrote: I would say that if you can "translate" different perspectives into one another in a way which reconciles them, then one doesn't really negate the other. in the first place. Wouldn't that need to assume some kind of omniscience? In other words, why would it be significant if we can't translate the narratives?I'm not trying or intending to assume omniscience. It's all a work inprogress. It's all tentative. Suppose there are two people and one ofthem says "I believe in 6 gods" while the other one says, "I believein 203 gods". It might turn out that the two of them can sit downtogether and try to clarify what they mean by "gods" and they clarifythat maybe what one person is calling a "god" can be seen as havingdifferent aspects which the other person would call seperate anddistinct "g!
ods".
etc. And maybe at the end of the day they will hugand say "Actually we both agree, we are just using differentterminology"But there is no guarantee that this will be the result. Onepossibility is that if they had continued to discuss things they wouldhave reached that same point, but they chose not to stick with it,they lost patience and continued with the apparent disagreement.Another possibility is that they really do disagree. That theyactually are really clear on what the other person is saying and theydisagree about the nature of how the world is.If two people are looking at an unidentified white powder and one ofthem says "It's arsenic" and the other person says "There is noarsenic in there. It is just confectioner's sugar" then those twoclaims actually negate one another.PeaceGilberto
Of course your example is resolvable in an empirical way. Religion is not.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is not a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love to be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't have that proof now. I don't know what Hajir thinks. Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Iskandar and Hajir, I really would appreciate a more responsive answer. Do you even believe that it is within the realm of possiblity that Muhammad (saaws) a Manifestation of God, the same God that you believe sent the Bab and Bahaullah to usher in an era of world peace, do you believe that it is within the realm of possibility that Muhammad would have said something like that? Peace Gilberto On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't have any particularly compelling reason to belive that the hadith that the authoritative Bukhari cites is fake but I'd love to be see compelling evidence that the Prophet Muhammad never said such a thing. Regards, Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hajir: What about the Hadith? Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Hajir: Please explain this Hadith to me: Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577: I heard the Prophet saying, In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection. You've been asking me alot of questions recently. So let me ask you a few first. Do you believe that this hadith comes from the prophet Muhammad? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Fwd: Interesting thread
Hi, Gilberto, I'm not trying or intending to assume omniscience. It's all a work in progress. It's all tentative. Suppose there are two people and one of them says I believe in 6 gods while the other one says, I believe in 203 gods. It might turn out that the two of them can sit down together and try to clarify what they mean by gods and they clarify that maybe what one person is calling a god can be seen as having different aspects which the other person would call seperate and distinct gods. etc. And maybe at the end of the day they will hug and say Actually we both agree, we are just using different terminology What I am arguing for is contextualization. It is difficult enough comparing narratives of the same religious category (different Baha'i faiths, Islams, Buddhisms, etc.) Comparing narratives produced within different historical and cultural contexts is treacherous. Difference or linguistic contradiction is not necessarily a measure of spiritual validity. If two people are looking at an unidentified white powder and one of them says It's arsenic and the other person says There is no arsenic in there. It is just confectioner's sugar then those two claims actually negate one another. That is empirical. It is different if one is discussing ethics and spirituality. Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * Prof. of Sociology * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, Kansas 913-469-8500 x3376 * Fax 913-469-2589 * VOIP 347-983-0161 Mobile 913-768-4244 * http://MarkFoster.net * Office GEB 151D The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
spiritual validity? was Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, Mark Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I am arguing for is contextualization. It is difficult enough comparing narratives of the same religious category (different Baha'i faiths, Islams, Buddhisms, etc.) Comparing narratives produced within different historical and cultural contexts is treacherous. Difference or linguistic contradiction is not necessarily a measure of spiritual validity. What do you mean by spiritual validity. Is it about becoming a certain kind of person? Reaching enlightenment? Salvation? Something else? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is not a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love to be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't have that proof now. Thanks for being honest. Do you think it is possible to interpret the hadith in a way which doesn't have the features you find problematic? For example, is it possible that the young people talked about have some other feature or characteristic not mentioned in the hadith which is the real reason why they would be killed? What I mean is, could it be that there is a very specific group of people who really are/were especially dangerous to the faith for reasons which aren't actually mentioned in the hadith, but this group is only described by the hadith. Analagously to how in hadith it says the Dajjal will be one-eyed. That doesn't mean all one eyed people are the Dajjal. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/20/05, Mark A. Foster wrote: Gilberto, At 07:42 AM 10/20/2005, you wrote: I would say that if you can translate different perspectives into one another in a way which reconciles them, then one doesn't really negate the other. in the first place. Wouldn't that need to assume some kind of omniscience? In other words, why would it be significant if we can't translate the narratives? I'm not trying or intending to assume omniscience. It's all a work in progress. It's all tentative. Suppose there are two people and one of them says I believe in 6 gods while the other one says, I believe in 203 gods. It might turn out that the two of them can sit down together and try to clarify what they mean by gods and they clarify that maybe what one person is calling a god can be seen as having different aspects which the other person would call seperate and distinct g! ods. etc. And maybe at the end of the day they will hug and say Actually we both agree, we are just using different terminology But there is no guarantee that this will be the result. One possibility is that if they had continued to discuss things they would have reached that same point, but they chose not to stick with it, they lost patience and continued with the apparent disagreement. Another possibility is that they really do disagree. That they actually are really clear on what the other person is saying and they disagree about the nature of how the world is. If two people are looking at an unidentified white powder and one of them says It's arsenic and the other person says There is no arsenic in there. It is just confectioner's sugar then those two claims actually negate one another. Peace Gilberto Of course your example is resolvable in an empirical way. Religion is not. Again, I'm not claiming omniscience. If the conflicts are absolutely irresolvable then we all have to shrug our shoulders and say I don't know. You can't just assume all religions are true. You can't just assume all religions but yours are false. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that theProphet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compellingevidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, thefact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is nota compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love tobe able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't havethat proof now. I don't know what Hajir thinks. Hajir:
I agree.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviously and clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation. Unless, of course, one can find another particular hadith that specifically, explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on it and clarifies it. I think the Bukhari hadith that Hajir shared is straightforward and clear. I'd take it at its face value. I wouldn't want to neccessarily interpret it otherwise. Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is not a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love to be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't have that proof now. Thanks for being honest. Do you think it is possible to interpret the hadith in a way which doesn't have the features you find problematic? For example, is it possible that the young people talked about have some other feature or characteristic not mentioned in the hadith which is the real reason why they would be killed? What I mean is, could it be that there is a very specific group of people who really are/were especially dangerous to the faith for reasons which aren't actually mentioned in the hadith, but this group is only described by the hadith. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviously and clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation. Personally, I would want to avoid fundamentalism and a certain narrow minded approach. For most questions, it generally isn't a good idea to whip out the first passage in the Quran or hadith which you think might apply, and interpret it in the first way which occurs to you. The wiser and more intelligent approach would be to look at all the different texts which apply, and try to understand what they say collectively. And make sure you understand them properly, and make sure you understand the real-world situation you want to apply them to. So Unless, of course, one can find another particular hadith that specifically, explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on it and clarifies it. For example, one passage not just from a hadith but from the Quran which is easy to mention in this regard is: whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men So if you find some isolated hadith saying that its ok to kill someone, a reasonable assumption is that they must have been guilty of murder themselves or mischief in the land or again: [6.151] Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice. So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong. Peace Gilberto On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is not a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love to be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't have that proof now. Thanks for being honest. Do you think it is possible to interpret the hadith in a way which doesn't have the features you find problematic? For example, is it possible that the young people talked about have some other feature or characteristic not mentioned in the hadith which is the real reason why they would be killed? What I mean is, could it be that there is a very specific group of people who really are/were especially dangerous to the faith for reasons which aren't actually mentioned in the hadith, but this group is only described by the hadith. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe:
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I'm very happy you said that, Gilberto: "So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong."
The problem is, it is "wrong" for a Muslim to become a Baha'i. This is a greatest form of challenge for any religion that springs out of Islam, especially a religion that claims to be independent of Islam: specifically, the Baha'i Faith. This is clear evidence that the Bab and Baha'u'llah were not only motivated by God, but where animating the power of God on earth when they succeeded to tear through layers and layers of veils and clouds so that the sun of Baha may shine.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your attempts at clarifying the issue; but, with all due respect, I'm not persuaded yet that the Bukhari hadith that Hajir mentioned is fake. But I'd love to be able to belive what you say below. I'm not trying to argue that the hadith is fake. But if it is, that just makes a certain argument easier. So now we can consider the alternative. I've already taken a stab at it. So now the question goes to you. If you really believe that Muhammad said this and you also believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, then this isn't just a Muslim burden to try to justify the statement found in the hadith. How do you as a Bahai justify the statement? -Gilberto Iskandar On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviously and clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation. Personally, I would want to avoid fundamentalism and a certain narrow minded approach. For most questions, it generally isn't a good idea to whip out the first passage in the Quran or hadith which you think might apply, and interpret it in the first way which occurs to you. The wiser and more intelligent approach would be to look at all the different texts which apply, and try to understand what they say collectively. And make sure you understand them properly, and make sure you understand the real-world situation you want to apply them to. So Unless, of course, one can find another particular hadith that specifically, explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on it and clarifies it. For example, one passage not just from a hadith but from the Quran which is easy to mention in this regard is: whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men So if you find some isolated hadith saying that its ok to kill someone, a reasonable assumption is that they must have been guilty of murder themselves or mischief in the land or again: [6.151] Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice. So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong. Peace Gilberto On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is not a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love to be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't have that proof now. Thanks for being honest. Do you think it is possible to interpret the hadith in a way which doesn't have the features you find problematic? For example, is it possible that the young people talked about have some other feature or characteristic not mentioned in the hadith which is the real reason why they would be killed? What I mean is, could it be that there is a very specific group of people who really are/were especially dangerous to the faith for reasons which aren't actually mentioned in the hadith, but this group is only described by the hadith. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
I've said this before but the Bahai faith obviously sets up a hierarchy of different religions with the most recent religion (itself) on the top. And I think that is necessarily messed up.
Hajir:
Are you suggesting that Islam doesn't do that, while the Baha'i Faith does?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
So if you are married to the Bahai faith and think its the greatest religion in the world, that's your perception. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it the same way. And another person might be perfectly happy without being married to Bahai.
Hajir:
Are you suggesting that Islam is above our perception?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they havedisbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not fromamong them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but ifthey turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,and take not from among them a friend or a helper.[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there isan alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fightingyou or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He wouldhave given them power over you, so that they should have certainlyfought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight youand offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.Gilberto:
So who is excepted? Those who you have a treaty with. Those who havestopped fighting. Those who have withdrawn and offered peace. So thepeople in verse 89 who are being fought against are clearly those whoyou have no treaty with, and who have not laid down their arms and arecontinuing to fight against you. But those who are peaceful, ALLAH HASNOT GIVEN YOU A WAY AGAINST THEM. When the Quran talks about using force against a group of people its not just non-Muslims who are peacefully minding their own business. It is talking about those who have violently attacked the Muslims and have no intention of stopping.Hajir:
Doesn'tthe second part of the verse assumes there was fighting already taking place: "their hearts shrinking from fighting you".
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
"Whosoever killed a person unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (5:32)
"According to this verse of the Qur'an, if one human being is killed who is neither guilty of murdering another person nor guilty of causing disorder/strife, it would be equivalent of massacring the entire human race, which is an inconceivably barbaric crime, and a monumental sin. This verse makes it clear and unequivocal who is a legitimate target, and who is not."
2.190-1: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."
"This verse is traditionally interpreted (for example by Ibn Kathir) as forbidding attacks on non-combatants."
The other verse in question was in"reference to the Hypocrites (munafiqin), a group at Medina, who are said to have pretended to be Muslims while secretly supporting their enemies."
(answers.com)
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I've said this before but the Bahai faith obviously sets up a hierarchy of different religions with the most recent religion (itself) on the top. And I think that is necessarily messed up. Hajir: Are you suggesting that Islam doesn't do that, while the Baha'i Faith does? I don't think Islam sets up a hierarchy of religions according to time, no. For example, apart from the political situation around Palestine, orthodox Islam and Judaism are actually very similar in perspective. (dietary code, sacred language, regular ritual, specific days of fasting, rules about grooming + hygine, monotheistic, non-Trinitarian) In terms of theological/religious matters I think many Muslims might have more of a disagreement with the typical Christian than the typical Jew. Just because Christianity is more recent, I wouldn't assume that Christians are more spiritual. Personally, I tend to see things more in terms of individuals than groups. It is up to God to judge different individuals and the state of their souls. I think some people following old religions can be very spiritual and wise. And some people follow new religions can be very unspiritual. I would not want to make generalizations. If anything, I would even suggest that the older religions with more notches under their belt also have a great deal more wisdom accumulated within their frameworks. A longer history of saints, mystics, philosophers etc. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: So if you are married to the Bahai faith and think its the greatest religion in the world, that's your perception. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it the same way. And another person might be perfectly happy without being married to Bahai. Hajir: Are you suggesting that Islam is above our perception? No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If John is married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmed will also probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. But there is not a whole lot of point in arguing about it. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. Gilberto: So who is excepted? Those who you have a treaty with. Those who have stopped fighting. Those who have withdrawn and offered peace. So the people in verse 89 who are being fought against are clearly those who you have no treaty with, and who have not laid down their arms and are continuing to fight against you. But those who are peaceful, ALLAH HAS NOT GIVEN YOU A WAY AGAINST THEM. When the Quran talks about using force against a group of people its not just non-Muslims who are peacefully minding their own business. It is talking about those who have violently attacked the Muslims and have no intention of stopping. Hajir: Doesn't the second part of the verse assumes there was fighting already taking place: their hearts shrinking from fighting you. I'm not sure what is your point. There are other passages in the Quran which talk about not being the aggressor in the first place. There is no justification in the Quran for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Given the context of the discussion, I would ask you to be honest and explicit about what you are saying. What is the point you are trying to make? -Gilberto On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whosoever killed a person – unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land – it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. (5:32) According to this verse of the Qur'an, if one human being is killed who is neither guilty of murdering another person nor guilty of causing disorder/strife, it would be equivalent of massacring the entire human race, which is an inconceivably barbaric crime, and a monumental sin. This verse makes it clear and unequivocal who is a legitimate target, and who is not. 2.190-1: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. This verse is traditionally interpreted (for example by Ibn Kathir) as forbidding attacks on non-combatants. The other verse in question was in reference to the Hypocrites (munafiqin), a group at Medina, who are said to have pretended to be Muslims while secretly supporting their enemies. (answers.com) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets bn‰¶…¶z™¶rz•†rž±m�•z–j¢½…·ÓŠqvn‰z¹®mŠž™j¡¢Š²q¹±m¶–�yÓý~š¹®�j‰vŠjn†‚y–žŠŠmŠŠqvn§Šqvóy~
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto: I don't think Islam sets up a hierarchy of religions according totime, no.
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If Johnis married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the mostbeautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmedwill also probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman inthe world. But there is not a whole lot of point in arguing about it.
Hajir:
But I don't think I'm arguingover objective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify itby more concrete means.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If John is married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmed will also probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. But there is not a whole lot of point in arguing about it. Hajir: But I don't think I'm arguing over objective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify it by more concrete means. Could you elaborate? What you just wrote sounds totally contradictory. You don't think you are arguing about objective qualities but you do think we should be able to deal with them through concrete means? Please spell out more what you ahve in mind. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
subjective... I meant subjective.
But I don't think I'm arguing over subjective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify it by more concrete means.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I'm not sure what is your point. There are other passages in the Quran which talk about not being the aggressor in the first place. There is no justification in the Quran for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Hajir: What about the Hadith? There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all? Gilberto: I wouldn't call it a hierarchy. Hajir: Do you mean that Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith in this sense?Gilberto: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true(although many contain alot of wisdom and truth).
Hajir: How is this a better view than saying that all religions *are* true?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Hajir: What about the Hadith?
Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-payingnon-Muslims.
Hajir:
Please explain this Hadith to me:
"Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection." "
--
Hajir:
Now, compare that saying of the Prophet, inspired by God for His day (rightfully so), to the teaching of the Baha'i Faith, which is applicable for our day, this day.
"Persons who have been attracted to the Bah Faith but who decide, for whatever reason, to leave it are entirely free to do so." -One Common Faith
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RE: Fwd: Interesting thread
Title: Message
I am
relatively sure he would claim this refers to Baha'is, and they must be killed
as the Prophet instructed.
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I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will
appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good
talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their
faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them,
for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."
"
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hajir: What about the Hadith? Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-paying non-Muslims. Hajir: Please explain this Hadith to me: Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577: I heard the Prophet saying, In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection. You've been asking me alot of questions recently. So let me ask you a few first. Do you believe that this hadith comes from the prophet Muhammad? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all? Gilberto: I wouldn't call it a hierarchy. Hajir: Do you mean that Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith in this sense? Gilberto: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true (although many contain alot of wisdom and truth). Hajir: How is this a better view than saying that all religions *are* true? Which religion says all religions are true? -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
You have no basis for making such assumptions. On 10/20/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am relatively sure he would claim this refers to Baha'is, and they must be killed as the Prophet instructed. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. I heard the Prophet saying, In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Is it appropriate and OK for a listmember to call Khazeh and his honest and sincere remarks as dishonest and INCREDIBLY dishonest? Iskandar On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 15, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Interesting thread To: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm disappointed in you. It is INCREDIBLY dishonest to quote things out of context in this way. You even cut the quote mid-sentence. Read more of the passage. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
I was angry because of what he was saying about the Quran (in the month of the Quran) and spoke out of that anger. I just think there is a deep contradiction in saying that you love the Quran and respect it as God's word but then on the other hand criticizing it as being out of date and inapplicable for modern times. And I think that the approach Khazeh was taking, and the arguments he was making, in order to prove that the Quran was out of date was way too reminiscent of conversations I've had with Islamophobes who actually hate Islam and make all sorts of other accusations against the prophet and Islam. I don't think Khazeh is evil. He definitely tries to be sweet. And I would imagine that he would be an honest and good person in many different respects. He probably has high moral character in his dealings with people. But I still think that there is a certain contradiction, a certain intellectual dishonesty in the position he is taking with regards to the Quran. I don't think it is personal to him, I think it is intrinsic in the Bahai faith. Bahais have to praise Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran so you can claim to be part of the same tradition. But you have to disparage Muslims and the Quran enough to explain why you don't follow the commandments of Islam and justify why something new was necessary. Peace Gilberto On 10/17/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it appropriate and OK for a listmember to call Khazeh and his honest and sincere remarks as dishonest and INCREDIBLY dishonest? Iskandar On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 15, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Interesting thread To: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm disappointed in you. It is INCREDIBLY dishonest to quote things out of context in this way. You even cut the quote mid-sentence. Read more of the passage. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fwd: Interesting thread
-- Forwarded message -- From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 15, 2005 4:51 PM Subject: Re: Interesting thread To: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Khazeh: On 10/15/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am worried that we are again repeating ourselves and we are losing sight of the broader picture which alas has tremendous implications for our lives, especially in the 21st Century and in the 160th year of the Bahái Era… POINT NUMBER 1] there is no doubt that the Bahái Writings say that the Qur'an is an absolutely authenticated repository of the Word of God Gilberto: Yes. I've heard that from you and other Bahais in the course of my discussions on these forums. And I have had a certain understanding of what absolutely authenticated means. But now recently, Scott, who is Bahai made comments which seemed to me to be totally contrary to that understanding. So in the course of the discussions I've seen, Scott's comments were a new thing. POINT NUMBER 2] there is no doubt that the Iqan and 'Abdu'l-Baha speak glowingly about the truth and beauty of the Holy Bible. Not in question. There are also some slightly negative comments as well. NUMBER 3] there is no doubt that the intention of the Bahái Faith is NOT to BELITTLE the Prophets gone before Baha'u'llah NOT to OBSCURE, HOWEVER SLIGHTLY, THE RADIANCE OF THE PREVIOUS REVELATIONS NOT to OUT THEM from the hearts of their followers NOT to ABROGATE the FUNDAMENTALS of Their DOCTRINES NOT to DISCARD any of Their REVEALED Books [PROMISED DAY IS COME page 108] Yes, those are the ideals mentioned within the Bahai writings. And I think you strive to live those out. I also think that there are other individual Bahais who haven't had the same pure intentions and actually do speak in ways which do belittle previous prophets, obscure the radiance of their revelation, abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, etc. Further The Bahái Faith disclaims any intention of DWARFING any of the Prophets of the past, or of WHITTLING DOWN THE ETERNAL VERITY of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, NOR DOES IT SEEK TO UNDERMINE THE BASIS OF ANY MAN'S ALLEGIANCE TO THEIR CAUSE. (Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 58) Again, those are very nice sentiments. I don't think that every Bahai manages to live up to it. And I think given the Bahai doctrine of Progressive Revelation it is INCREDIBLY difficult for Bahais to implement the noble principles you are talking about. POINT 4] In fact the Master 'Abdu'l-Baha said: It is my hope that you may put forth your most earnest endeavour to accomplish this end, that you may investigate and study the Holy Scriptures WORD BY WORD so that you may attain knowledge of the mysteries hidden therein. Be not satisfied with words, but seek to understand the spiritual meanings hidden in the heart of the words. No comment. POINT 5] The Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things - that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God - that is to say, the human virtues - disappears, and only the form subsists. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 47) Sure. POINT 6] The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries - this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times. I would think that some of these things flow fairly directly from the first. If the first part shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. then that has implications for dealing with theft and injury, abolition of slavery, etc. I guess in order to respond it would just involve
Fwd: Interesting thread
-- Forwarded message -- From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 15, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Interesting thread To: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 10/15/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote This servant will continue if any one shows interest… POINT 6 reaffirms the above in http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg05969.html ** The religions of God have the same foundation, but the dogmas appearing later have differed. Each of the divine religions has two aspects. The first is essential. It concerns morality and development of the virtues of the human world. This aspect is common to all. It is fundamental; it is one; there is no difference, no variation in it. As regards the inculcation of morality and the development of human virtues, there is no difference whatsoever between the teachings of Zoroaster, Jesus and Baha'u'llah. In this they agree; they are one. The second aspect of the divine religions is nonessential. It concerns human needs and undergoes change in every cycle according to the exigency of the time I would look at the last part and say if the second aspect is really nonessential then it doesn't need to be changed. POINT 7 We need the Divine Teachings RENEWED because humanity has lost sight of the essentials and vested interests emphasize often the non-essentials I would say that if the essentials are really common to all religions then we can encourage people to follow those principles which are already found in their own faiths. And if the non-essentials are things that seperate the different religions then we can all de-emphasize them. And that includes Bahais. POINT 8 In all the Holy Books of the past there are injunctions and teachings which are to be contextualized in time in history in the human environment. The Law of God changes with respect to every age. Movements such as Salafiyya in Islam and Fundamentalism in Christianity often miss this salient point I'm not a Salafi. And addressing the Salafi movement is part of a discussion which is already occuring within Islam. The traditional majority already realizes that rulings need to be contextualized. Scholars who follow a traditional methodology look at many different factors specific to a given situation when they arrive at rulings. Muslims don't need to convert to a different religion in order to do that. POINT 9 Such utterances in the past Books need to be contextualized and cannot be the Will of God in a non-abrogatable form NEW TESTAMENT LUKE 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. LUKE LUKE 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law In my understanding the above wasn't intended to be literal. It has a context which allows the principle to still be relevant today. OLD TESTAMENT DEUTERONOMY 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: JOSHUA 6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Yes, I've read those passages before. I don't believe the above can or should be contextualized. I don't believe that God would ever order genocide. I don't believe the above passages are inspired. And that's a big part of why I am as critical of the Bible as I am. In the Qur'anic Dispensation again the times the conditions the Asbaab e nuzuul [circumstances of revelation] the naasikh and the mansuukh [the abrogating verse and the verse that has to be abrogated all these facets are
