Re: "Three-Up Tour" & compost tea brew
- Original Message - From: "Lloyd Charles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:24 PM > would use the brix meter on crop. > > Hi Lloyd I have been testing my brews for pH, ergs, brix and temp. As I spray in the evenings I have not done a leaf brix test,I also got to busy to spray so just put it through the irrigation. So far pH and ergs increases as the brew ages and as the temp goes up. Brix is zero% i.e. Temp 20 Degrees = pH 7.2, ergs 2.32 mS at start of brew 24 hrs later 29 degrees =pH 7.8, ergs 2.53 I yet have not done enough brews to see if this is consistent and I do have some variables to contend with like air temp. My second and third brews have shown similar results. Please note this has been set up as a working operation and is ruled by farmyard measurements. Now that work is easing up I will get back to some more testing. Cheers TonyR NZ DOWN UNDER
Re: "Three-Up Tour" & compost tea brew
- Original Message - From: Rambler Flowers LTD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 11:13 AM Subject: Re: "Three-Up Tour" & compost tea brew > Hi Lloyd I have made a small 50Litre brewer made from an old stainless > steel LPG cylinder with a couple of air stones an air pump it cost me about > $60. I have used worm compost worm leachate, comphrey tea with some > equisetum > and barrel compost,humic acid, hydroslated fish kelpand rockdust to produce > a rich smelling frothy ttea in about 24 hrs. I have been aiming for a > balanced fungal/bacterial tea this has been fed to the crop through the > trickle and overhead irrigation. I have been impressed on simple and easy it > is to make and use. Even tho we have had one of the most difficult growing > seasons for a long time I am very impressed with the quality of my crops > .Best yet. > Have you had any sample testes by SFW yet? Hi Tony I have not had any tests done - like you I am relying on feel and smell, we are only applying to fallow ground and stubble residue at the moment, I would use the brix meter on crop. I put my brew straight out - I do a tank at evening and morning and am running the brewer like a ginger beer plant - take out half the mix and top up with more water and nutrient - its back to full strength in 6 to 8 hours - (forgot - I took the compost bag out after 24 hours - I think its a major source of the dreaded biofilm/anaerobic stuff as it gets old) dont know how long this will last for but boy its simple!. I dare say Elaine would not approve of my methods, and if this was going on food crops we would have to test (funny how you can spray endosulfan on tomatoes two days before harvest without needing to test for residue - but compost tea is dangerous). Keep in touch , this is looking interesting. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: "Three-Up Tour" & compost tea brew
Hi Lloyd I have made a small 50Litre brewer made from an old stainless steel LPG cylinder with a couple of air stones an air pump it cost me about $60. I have used worm compost worm leachate, comphrey tea with some equisetum and barrel compost,humic acid, hydroslated fish kelpand rockdust to produce a rich smelling frothy ttea in about 24 hrs. I have been aiming for a balanced fungal/bacterial tea this has been fed to the crop through the trickle and overhead irrigation. I have been impressed on simple and easy it is to make and use. Even tho we have had one of the most difficult growing seasons for a long time I am very impressed with the quality of my crops .Best yet. Have you had any sample testes by SFW yet? They do not have their NZ lab up and running yet so I am relying on ones senses and leaving the brew in an air tight bottle overnight. Next brew I make I will test it by dowsing. Cheers Tony R NZ DownUnder > > On a different tack - I have some compost tea brewing - yes! aerated tea > just like the experts tell us to do. Only in my old rectangular milk vat > with paddle stirrer and sump pump recirculating the brew for aeration. I am > struck by how absurdly simple it is to do now that I have got the basic > principle figured out and have got away from all the hype of fancy, > expensive, machines, and super duper -you beaut, expensive feeds. > In 400 gal I put about 40 to 50 lb of good (BD prep'ed) compost (in a bag > made from plastic flyscreen mesh) , which included a couple double handfuls > each of BD Barrel compost and fresh Worm castings. Then for food 2 litres of > molasses,1 litre liquid kelp, a beancan of powdered humate. It seems to me > that low rates of feeding are the key to making aerobic tea with > "unsuitable" equipment. > This is just like biodynamics - experts make it seem t complicated > when its really simple - so people turn away or dont do it for fear of doing > it wrong. > Cheers all > Lloyd Charles > >
"Three-Up Tour" & compost tea brew
> March/Early April eductional tour. > Gary Zimmer, one of the US' foremost biological farming teachers, and > Jerry Brunetti, Americas foremost Hi Allan Its on at Young in NSW - 27/28th March cost $270 Australian for the two days Thanks for the tip off On a different tack - I have some compost tea brewing - yes! aerated tea just like the experts tell us to do. Only in my old rectangular milk vat with paddle stirrer and sump pump recirculating the brew for aeration. I am struck by how absurdly simple it is to do now that I have got the basic principle figured out and have got away from all the hype of fancy, expensive, machines, and super duper -you beaut, expensive feeds. In 400 gal I put about 40 to 50 lb of good (BD prep'ed) compost (in a bag made from plastic flyscreen mesh) , which included a couple double handfuls each of BD Barrel compost and fresh Worm castings. Then for food 2 litres of molasses,1 litre liquid kelp, a beancan of powdered humate. It seems to me that low rates of feeding are the key to making aerobic tea with "unsuitable" equipment. This is just like biodynamics - experts make it seem t complicated when its really simple - so people turn away or dont do it for fear of doing it wrong. Cheers all Lloyd Charles
Compost Tea use with veggies on the Farmers' Market
We had really nice fall broccoli in our garden with the use of compost tea made from our BD compost, both in 5 gallon buckets for a couple of weeks without aeration with an aquarium aerator for 24 hours and a tsp. of molasses added. It's especially valuable to us because since we only get 1/2 gal/minute water from our deep well and the water table goes down so much in August-September. Also, in our neighborhood IPM weed control project on the county road as we get the common tansy, spotted knapweed, hawkweed and thistle gone, we hoped to use mycorrhizae-rich compost tea in our 40-gallon buckets with our spray rig to encourage the growth of native grasses and broadleaf plants and discourage the the weeds. I am curious to try the addition of humus and kelp to our compost tea, as well as BC and 500 and am contemplating the purchase of a compost tea making unit with a compost well, and a stronger aerating unit to go in our barrels. Just now, I called the Environmental Specialist at our Health District to ask him about e.coli 0157. I told him that the people who make the organic rule are concerned about this and where could I have my compost tested? I also asked him how many cases of icily 0157 he sees and in what. He said they are sporadic and mostly in meat. I've been certified organic ever since the state started having a certification program. Can I sell veggies and herbs under my organic certification on the Market in 2003 if I spray compost tea in August and September to keep my plants alive?
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
You're listed as a speaker at the Nov 14 conference We can put that as your topic, if you'd like. each speaker is getting from 3-4 hours to make their case. The time does not have to be contiguous, however. http://www.gardeningforthefuture.com/biodyn and push the banner I offered Marc Chien to do a practical work day rigging and inoculating a brewer with stirring and applying some bd remedies. Your November conf should include that.
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
ALLAN, HOW CAN I GET DELISTED & NOT RECEIVE THESE E-MAILS? SAM KOONTZ - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts >Also stated by York is that even bd is not an answer in and of itself for a>system as complex as a monoculture as an overhybridized vineyard.The tea is poo pooed by Brinton because he says that other, less expensive, less labor consuming methods will produce the same results. Will published on this in BIODYNAMICS in the early 90's.York's message has always been, in any situation, that the preps are NOT magic, that they are a necessary input to a fully developed horticultural needs of the crop and a mature agriculural understanding of the needs of the soils. Practical as he is, one never hears of him creating a scenario in which the preps are left out. That said, York will still tell you that the preps will not work miracles by themselves.Saddest news I had late last week was that JPI has had no increase in inquiries after the Alt. Vit Conference.What about you, Steve? Have you gotten much follow up?-Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
In a message dated 2/9/03 9:50:43 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << What about you, Steve? Have you gotten much follow up? -Allan >> I offered Marc Chien to do a practical work day rigging and inoculating a brewer with stirring and applying some bd remedies. Your November conf should include that. There is a big interest from Eric Morgan at "Organic Approach"...sstorch
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Also stated by York is that even bd is not an answer in and of itself for a system as complex as a monoculture as an overhybridized vineyard. The tea is poo pooed by Brinton because he says that other, less expensive, less labor consuming methods will produce the same results. Will published on this in BIODYNAMICS in the early 90's. York's message has always been, in any situation, that the preps are NOT magic, that they are a necessary input to a fully developed horticultural needs of the crop and a mature agriculural understanding of the needs of the soils. Practical as he is, one never hears of him creating a scenario in which the preps are left out. That said, York will still tell you that the preps will not work miracles by themselves. Saddest news I had late last week was that JPI has had no increase in inquiries after the Alt. Vit Conference. What about you, Steve? Have you gotten much follow up? -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Also stated by York is that even bd is not an answer in and of itself for a system as complex as a monoculture as an overhybridized vineyard. Premium viticulture and great farming practices are part and parcel. The tea is poo-pooed by Brinton because he did not raise it to the level it has attained. The science is young, but think of the diversity you can bring to the soil in a monoculture situation with these teas in a cheap fashion. diversity is the key here...sstorch
Re: compost tea
In a message dated 2/4/03 12:43:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Compost tea has been used by BD farmers for a long time and no one bothered to get all technical about feeding the culture. Allan's explanation was very good; we just don't yet know if "brewed" compost tea is needed. >> There are several fertilizer companies that will pay you a small dividend if you let them clean the muck out of you pond every few years. What they are accumulating is an incredible quantity of microbes that live in this muck. As it turns of many of the same organisms that live in the soil also live in this pond environment. The extra attention given to aerobically brewed tea gives several orders of magnitude higher of these beneficial organisms in aerobic tea than anaerobic. Always, when cleaning out the brewer the muck smells wonderful and reminiscent of a big healthy lake. This muck goes back into the compost pile. Likewise the tea organisms can be reproduced through judicious use of the biodynamic remedies. With the tea what is not needed id spending thousans on a brewer when you can easily make one with the biggest investment being a tank and a great compressor...sstorch
Compost Tea Maker wasRe: CT=BDcompost,preps+Alaska humus, forest humus & kelp
It's a new model of small compost tea maker by Bob Norsen from Alaska. He doesn't have a web site, but his large model 30-500 gallons is recommended by The Soil Food Web and the results of their testing is under "Bob's Brews" on their Compost Tea list/serve page on , but you have to be a member and have Excel to see them under "Files" on their page. The Bitti-O-Later can make from 3-30 gallons and will have its testing results for microorganisms in the file sometime in the future. It costs $165 and if we decide to get one, I'll try to get it on our road grant. I'm interested in this one because we have a solar electric system and run on DC power with a Trace inverter. The 24 hr. compost tea requires constant power and our system can't spare very much for that long a time. This maker is within our system capabilities. I'm still researching all aspects of this and that's why I'm questioning Allan about his conclusions after the BD Viticulture Conference. Teresa Seed wrote: > >So much potential--so much confusion! > > > >Merla > > Amen to all that, Merla! > > But what is a Bitty-O-Later please? > > Teresa > > _ > Chat online in real time with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk
compost tea
At 12:04 PM 2/4/2003 -0500, Merla wrote: This is my year for my own BC & 500 AND for 24 hr aerobic compost tea. Exactly in what proportion do you combine them? Allan's post answered your questions very well. Compost tea has been used by BD farmers for a long time and no one bothered to get all technical about feeding the culture. Allan's explanation was very good; we just don't yet know if "brewed" compost tea is needed. Thanks, Allan, for articulating the issue. Also a post from Ms. Berkley, possibly on the regulation committee on the NOSB standards in the Compost Tea list/serve files states that CT is considered raw manure. I thought that was not being enforced this year. Am I asking this on the wrong list/serve or can someone answer? I don't want to have my OG certification denied. I'm not current in this area, I thought the decision was that if the compost was acceptable (ie. met all the requirements for number of turnings, temperature etc) then you could apply it as you wish. There may be some requirement for a minimum time period between application and harvest. More to the point, why bother with getting certified? I believe small growers are exempted from the certification requirement. What do other folks do? David Robison
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
GA, it is interesting what you have...what variety of table grapes do you raise? Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Bob Not sure if this is reply to my earlier post ? it would appear it is unneccessary if our experience is anything to go by. We have grown table grapes in a plastichouse for some 5 seasons with no fungal problems of any sort. We are now working with outside wine grapes -to achieve the same. My comments were in response to Alan Yorks comments of 'no need to extend BD prep usage'' - yet he still sprays Sulphur as a fungicide. In short he still does not have his vineyards balanced or knows his preps well enough to use them to balance the environment. This is organics with the BD preps, not biodynamics. GA - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts Is there no level or no amount of S that is not "gross"?There are times that we apply 3 pounds per acre of dusting sulfur to beautiful hillside vines that have been certified organic for 15 years.Its only on occasion, not even every year. These vines produce grapes that are very high quality, composted, cover cropped, fed soil minerals, fed foliar minerals and respectedloved by those who work with them. What's is so horribly gross about this practice? These are 20-50 acre fields. Our training, pruning and manipulation of the canopy and crop during the season is a primary prevetion of PM.I seen first hand some of the drawbacks of sulfur. But there are trade offs in not using sulfur. Low rates of sulfur, used early in the season does not end up in wine, as a general rule.Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Is there no level or no amount of S that is not "gross"? There are times that we apply 3 pounds per acre of dusting sulfur to beautiful hillside vines that have been certified organic for 15 years. Its only on occasion, not even every year. These vines produce grapes that are very high quality, composted, cover cropped, fed soil minerals, fed foliar minerals and respectedloved by those who work with them. What's is so horribly gross about this practice? These are 20-50 acre fields. Our training, pruning and manipulation of the canopy and crop during the season is a primary prevetion of PM. I seen first hand some of the drawbacks of sulfur. But there are trade offs in not using sulfur. Low rates of sulfur, used early in the season does not end up in wine, as a general rule. Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Dear Lloyd, It seems to me that Messrs York amd Brinton must be farming in some very good country to claim that any system must be able to produce reliable results year in , and year out. they obviously dont farm in an area which has any climatic limitations like we are at the moment.Last Sunday when we came home from the peace march temperature at 6pm was 44 degrees Celcius (110oF). It had been somewhere about that for the previous week, with gale force winds. Then the gale force winds became freezing cold, down to 5 degree Celcius (40o F). Quite a change. How can anyone claim that a productionv system has to be able to produce reliable crops when Australian farmers continually face this challenge of extremely variable rainfall and temperatures. Even if you are an irrigation farmer there is hardly any water allocated because it is not in the dams. As you know our area is generally acknowledged as a pretty safe rainfall area, average 800 mm anually. In the last 15 months rainfall has not reached 150 mm. I know that your farm has not fared much better. Under these conditions any improvement from the use of radionics is easily observed. The fruit trees are in the best condition that I have ever seen them. Particularly with no water since last winter. The grass in between the trees is non existent, just dust. The earth is cracking but the trees are in fantastic health. As good an advertisement for a combination of BD and Radionics as you would ever wish to see. Most of the stock on the mountain have been depastured to other areas or are on the road, scrabbling whatever survival feed they can find. On Sattwa Park even although to look at it you would wonder what the stock are eating they are still in very good condition. The major problem that we have at the moment is drinking water for stock and household water. I am sure that when it eventually rains we will see the recovery results from the use of Radionics and BD. Go well James Hedley. - Original Message - From: "Lloyd Charles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 12:28 AM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts > > > I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton > > both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops > > reliably produced (this means year after year, something that > > excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, > > except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. > > First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged > > Hi Allan > > Hmmm "crops reliably produced -year after year" I certainly would'nt > make that claim for radionics(on its own), nor would I support it for > biodynamics(on its own), it certainly does not happen in conventional > agriculture, no one way is reliable when taken in isolation, and isolation > is the special talent of scientists - when we eliminate the variables to > allow a 'valid trial' we also eliminate many of the mechanisms that allow > nature to function properly. > When I go look at the people that are making alternative > agriculture work well in most cases they are using a broad range of tactics, > and if not they are happily sequestered on a patch of specially good and > fertile soil that forgives the mistakes. Away from those places you mostly > find that a balanced combination of good basic soil remineralisation, > stimulation of microbial activity, and energetics is whats needed for best > results, BD or radionics (energetics) without the minerals is a struggle, > likewise a mineralised soil low in energy, microbial stimulation (compost > tea etc) without attending to basic minerals will crash and burn one day > too. Of course we can always take the other road and adjust yield > expectations downward to come in line with the low fertility - many wine > grape growers do this with seeming good results - planting on a dry barren > hillside and thinning the crop, ' stressing the vines' so that the low > supply of soil minerals is sufficient to give high quality fruit and make > top grade wine - the logic of this escapes me but it seems to work - I think > differently - why not grow on a more hospitable patch - aim for better yield > and supply the minerals that are lacking ?? > My thoughts anyway > Lloyd Charles > >
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, Your question, "Do you know of anyone using compost tea and failing to control powdery mildew?" lacks a critical component to be of most use. Bob - I think you are asking a different question than I'm asking right now. Using compost tea and failing to control disease is not a damnation of CT per se. that's not what I'm getting at, though, I'm simply asking who or what we as a group know on the gross level: Anyone or anyone you know using compost tea on powdery mildew? Is it working or is it not working? After that, your questions would be helpful. -Allan
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
We do know of people using compost tea and there are people claiming to have reduced sulfer use, but there are also people who are stating that they have seen no benefit, so the jury is still out. I now Kurt Grace at Sinsky has been using a lot of tea and has been very happy with the results so far. In response to a separate post, I think it is a little simplistic to say that simply because we have PM in the North Coast, it means that the grape varieties we are growing must be in appropriate for the area. Certainly some varieties are more susceptible and others less (Chardonnay is very suscetible and most reds less). Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Allan Balliett Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts >And sulfer is a way of life out here. Every 10 to 14 days from flowering >through veraison. Powdery mildew is a big problem and sulfer is the only >Organic method that works reliably. > >Peter Peter - Do you know of anyone using Compost tea to control powdery mildew? Do you know of anyone using compost tea and failing to control powdery mildew? Thanks for sharing your information. -Allan
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Title: Message Yes, we are using a model, but it has not significantly reduced sulfer use as far as I know as the pressure in the North Coast most of the summer is always high. 80 degrees and decent humidity. Peter -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:32 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt postsPeter, Am curious if you use a degree day model for knowing when the PM pressure is greatest.Also, do you have good mineral balance in the soil and in the vine?Having good levels of soil/vine calcium, boron, zinc and phosphate (in addition to others) has been a very, very important part of keeping PM under management with my clients/vines.Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Neither Alan nor myself have seen much from radionics. There are significant use of radionics in N. California and I work on jobs where its use has been very well practiced. Maybe its me...I just cant find results...to date. Looking for the wrong thing? Maybe. Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, Your question, "Do you know of anyone using compost tea and failing to control powdery mildew?" lacks a critical component to be of most use. How about taking into account the rest of the farm plan. In other words, if you are using compost tea to manage PM, is it the only management step being taken? Is it white grapes or black? What is the environmental pressures? Humid/cool climate? Is there a nearby vineyard (other) that has PM problems? What is the soil/vine health plan and does it address the need for B, Ca, P K and Zn? Why think that using an external (from the top down) application of anything is going to be sufficient to address a problem as complex as PM infection? I never approach PM from the top down, only. There needs to be an integrated approach that includes soil/vine nutrition, cultural controls and additionally topical applications. Where the particular vines are grown are very significant in this question. Are you comfortable/healthy standing in a polar zone? Are you comfortable/healthy standing in the Sahara desert. Likely not. I dont thing that vines planted in the wrong spot (a spot with environment not to the vines liking) are going to be conformable and healthy enough to defend without something as strong as suffer? Most vines that are easy to defend from PM, defend themselves. If you have bad PM, the question is why? Bob PS I still have been unable do get AY presentation off of real player. I get to the real player screen and then nothing works? Must be me. Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Peter, Am curious if you use a degree day model for knowing when the PM pressure is greatest. Also, do you have good mineral balance in the soil and in the vine? Having good levels of soil/vine calcium, boron, zinc and phosphate (in addition to others) has been a very, very important part of keeping PM under management with my clients/vines. Bob
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
And sulfer is a way of life out here. Every 10 to 14 days from flowering through veraison. Powdery mildew is a big problem and sulfer is the only Organic method that works reliably. Peter Peter - Do you know of anyone using Compost tea to control powdery mildew? Do you know of anyone using compost tea and failing to control powdery mildew? Thanks for sharing your information. -Allan
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
I'm sure one of the reasons Alan York has never seen anyone radionics is that I have never heard of anyone on the North Coast of California (Napa, Sonoma, Mendocino) who is even playing with radionics. If there is any here using radionics, they are keeping pretty quiet. And sulfer is a way of life out here. Every 10 to 14 days from flowering through veraison. Powdery mildew is a big problem and sulfer is the only Organic method that works reliably. Peter
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
My statement concerning the power lines in Hugh's published photo was to refer to an image that I assume many on the list, if they are serious about non chemical agriculture, would subscribe to Acres and be familiar with that photo. The photo is related to Radionic Broadcast, not trees, cattle or scrub. I mearly noted that example as an image that I thought should be familiar to a reasonable proportion of the list, without posting photographs, which it seems many can not handle. I could list many things that distort or block a Radionic Broadcast. I believe these factors show us clearly how it is working when not blocked or interfered with. As for power transmission lines, both my son and I can detect these when being driven, blindfold in a car. [We have some one else drive.] I also have an instrument and antenna built in Oz by Hugh Sangster, based on Dr Phil Calahan's work, that measures the radiation from Power Lines and the readings are parallel with the sensations experienced by a sensitive when passing under them. Some types of fencing material will interfere with Radionic Broadcast, just as they can negate micro waves and Radar. I can go into this at depth, but it may not be of interest to the list. We also have identified like interference with "Towers of Power". Gil Allan Balliett wrote: Gil - This wasn't a call to judgement. It was a simple statement that in the course of their work, Snip
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Those of us involved, can tell so many stories of positive results, it is with wonderment that we read this sort of statement. Is it possible that York/ Brinton made their judgement on the work of some dabbler who is not properly trained? Gil - This wasn't a call to judgement. It was a simple statement that in the course of their work, neither of these men have seen or heard of a farm where radionics was making a definite contribution to the the economic success of the enterprise. More importantly, my statement is from private conversation. It's not my intention to encourage personal attacks on men who were simply stating their observations. I will tell you one thing on the powerline story. I'm working out here in horse country outside of Washington DC. It's not uncommon to see the big arrays of trancontinental power lines x-the road and run away in the hills to either side. At the Blue Ridge Center they ran over the Blue Ridge right before our eyes. Although I always look, I have NEVER^ seen a clear example of the powerlines affecting the growth of plants. Furthermore, I regularly see cattle grazing under the lines when the cattle have the opportunity to graze hundreds of yards away. Furthermore, brush grows freely and wildly under the lines at the Blue Ridge Center, requiring brush clearing (lots of young oaks) twice a season. *The only time I saw what appeared to be a case of the growth of grass diminished under a line on examination turned out to be caused by ROUNDUP and not eminations from the powerlines. Again, just my observations. No need to feel that I'm challenging your observations. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
'Bd farms'' that still spray Sulphur or copper still have problems. I understand Mr Yorks vineyards still use these gross methods. WHat are they covering up and can grapes be grown with out them? Yes we have done it for several years - in a plastic house Glenn. Thanks for posting. I think that York's answer would be that economics force them to use varities that are technically unsuitable for the sites they are planted on but the effectiveness of conventional practices have made vineyard owners expect to be shipping grapes from these varities from those locals each season. OR the vines were converted from conventional to biological and do not perform 100% under biological management. The use of sulphur is not routine. The use of copper is all but prohibited.
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan Balliett wrote: I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops reliably produced (this means year after year, something that excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged Gil writes:- I have a lot of difficulty make up my mind as to answer or not answer this sort of post. Do York/ Brinton suggest that the only credible people are those who do not charge for services rendered? Do they get their chemicals free and the knowledge to apply them without charge? If they need an operation, do they pay and trained and equipped person, or do they seek some one with some likely looking tools and who does not charge a professional fee and accept that as a professional service? If all does not go well, do they then denigrate all trained persons? I can not speak for those whom York/ Brinton are judging. It may be that those involved are not fully trained and there fore not providing a reliable service. There may be third party influences that are negating the Radionics. An example is a photograph Hugh published in an Acres USA, that clearly showed the effect of a power line across a crop of corn and the resulting reduction of the beneficial effect. We know that the effect of Nuclear Power Stations is much larger than the promoters would have us think. In many areas, ground water carries so much chemicals from other properties, that one must first start a program of nullifying that before doing other work. Those of us involved, can tell so many stories of positive results, it is with wonderment that we read this sort of statement. Is it possible that York/ Brinton made their judgement on the work of some dabbler who is not properly trained? Gil
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
'Why > would a person need that? Even the best BD farm does not cover up the vagieries of bad weather or extreme drought, frost or low light situation. This is where the BD preps used wisely can overcome such things in a way nothing else will. We are also seeing the negative effects of soil structure, which will take years to sort by physical means can be addressed with the direct spraying of specific homeopathic BD preps. 'Bd farms'' that still spray Sulphur or copper still have problems. I understand Mr Yorks vineyards still use these gross methods. WHat are they covering up and can grapes be grown with out them? Yes we have done it for several years - in a plastic house GA
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Is there a way to download Alan York's talk so that I can listen to it without interruption? What's the interruption? Please explain. Thanks Physical tapes may become available from Penn State, but the organizer implied that he was in no hurry to dupe them. Let me know what you need to make the sound file work for you. The file, incidentally, is 150+ megs and took me 2.5 hours to upload on DSL! -Allan
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Is there a way to download Alan York's talk so that I can listen to it without interruption? Peter Young Bennett Valley Vineyards -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Allan Balliett Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts >My apologies to Mr York! I guess too that I need reminding occassionally >that radionics only works well in the hands of a skilled and talented >operator, there are'nt many around, count em on your fingers probably in >your country as well as here! Lloyd - I can't do justice to this because I do not have verbatim notes, but I noticed over and over again that as I asked Mr. York or Mr. Brinton about the effectiveness of one dynamic approach to another - - from Heinz Groetzke's 100% chicken manure tea to radionic application, each of them in their own way and own words asked 'Why would a person need that? There must be something fairly basic that is not right or you wouldn't be looking for something so extreme.' on top of that, Alan York said a couple of times (maybe even on the tape that I've published at www.gardeningforthefuture.com) 'I think this is all much easier than we are making it.' Which is to say, good farming practices are enough to produce a good farm; the preps are what are needed to produce food fit for human development. (And the development of real soil structure, I'd have to add from the recent AP readings!) Going ahead, because Alan York uses the preps whereever he works (all of the preps), I asked him about horn clay. I told him that it is widely believed that the preps won't work well unless they were mediated through the use of horn clay. He said 'Well, I must be remiss. I've never noticed that the preps were not working.' Again: this is not presented as 'the Truth' or to contradict someone else's experience. I'm putting this man's extensive and effective biodynamic experiences out here for less experienced growers to factor into their decisions for their own approaches. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
My apologies to Mr York! I guess too that I need reminding occassionally that radionics only works well in the hands of a skilled and talented operator, there are'nt many around, count em on your fingers probably in your country as well as here! Lloyd - I can't do justice to this because I do not have verbatim notes, but I noticed over and over again that as I asked Mr. York or Mr. Brinton about the effectiveness of one dynamic approach to another - - from Heinz Groetzke's 100% chicken manure tea to radionic application, each of them in their own way and own words asked 'Why would a person need that? There must be something fairly basic that is not right or you wouldn't be looking for something so extreme.' on top of that, Alan York said a couple of times (maybe even on the tape that I've published at www.gardeningforthefuture.com) 'I think this is all much easier than we are making it.' Which is to say, good farming practices are enough to produce a good farm; the preps are what are needed to produce food fit for human development. (And the development of real soil structure, I'd have to add from the recent AP readings!) Going ahead, because Alan York uses the preps whereever he works (all of the preps), I asked him about horn clay. I told him that it is widely believed that the preps won't work well unless they were mediated through the use of horn clay. He said 'Well, I must be remiss. I've never noticed that the preps were not working.' Again: this is not presented as 'the Truth' or to contradict someone else's experience. I'm putting this man's extensive and effective biodynamic experiences out here for less experienced growers to factor into their decisions for their own approaches. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
- York is not an old guard BD person. He put 'dynamics' way > behind good farming practice and knowledge of the crops being grown. > I have no doubt that if he had seen an application of > effective radionics that he wouldn't be applying it to all of his > accounts. My apologies to Mr York! I guess too that I need reminding occassionally that radionics only works well in the hands of a skilled and talented operator, there are'nt many around, count em on your fingers probably in your country as well as here! Its also only one of many tools and if a person cant use it to good effect then perhaps he's wiser to choose a simpler tool? Most drivers would make better progress in the family sedan than driving a ferrari eh? >. Gimme that man's address and phone > number and I"ll pass it to Mr. York. I'll have to check that - he may not want to go there. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Maybe Brinton and York dont want to see a result - after all radionic and homoepathic use of the BD preps has not been flavour of the month with old guard BD people. Its usually difficult to see something that you have decided not to look for. Lloyd - York is not an old guard BD person. He put 'dynamics' way behind good farming practice and knowledge of the crops being grown. He's the most pragmatic grower I've met who did not come from Australia! I have no doubt that if he had seen an application of effective radionics that he wouldn't be applying it to all of his accounts. This is not to deny the effectiveness of radionics, it's only to say that a man as present in dynamic agriculture as long as York has been says that he's never seen any situations that indicate a positive effect from radionics. Gimme that man's address and phone number and I"ll pass it to Mr. York. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan Would double embryo wheat and barley be good enough evidence to support the worth of radionics. It took one of Arden Andersen's best clients 20 generations (10 years) to do this out in Washington state with wheat and foliar fertilisation dont know whether they used radionics or not and its only a story he tells - no reason to doubt it though. Our radionics man in australia did this in three years using radionic analysis to maximise the energetic effect of fertiliser programs (base and foliars). I saw the crop of barley at harvest time and believe me it was not a case of 'finding' one or two, at least 60% of the plants we pulled were double embryo - gone clear through to harvest as healthy robust plants in a drought year, this guy is also keeping pest species out of crop paddocks spread from central queensland to tasmania by using radionic broadcast from his home base in southern victoria nightingales out of poppy fields, insect pests out of pea and bean crops, etc , etc) commercial farmers are paying him good money to do this stuff. Maybe Brinton and York dont want to see a result - after all radionic and homoepathic use of the BD preps has not been flavour of the month with old guard BD people. Its usually difficult to see something that you have decided not to look for. Mopre later Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Hmmm "crops reliably produced -year after year" I certainly would'nt make that claim for radionics(on its own), nor would I support it for biodynamics(on its own), it certainly does not happen in conventional agriculture, no one way is reliable when taken in isolation, and isolation is the special talent of scientists - when we eliminate the variables to allow a 'valid trial' we also eliminate many of the mechanisms that allow nature to function properly. Lloyd - Looks like I was suffering more of a failure to communicate than usual yesterday! Brinton and York were ruing that they have never seen an affective application of radionics. This was not meant to imply that the radionics would be in isolation. It meant that the radionics was an effective component of a farm management system. On the "BD only" remark, one can some times pick up the sense on this list that the preps are enough to make anyone a good farmer/gardener. York points out in his presentation that the men who gathered to listen to RS speak were not only very good farmers but they, for the most part, were also very perceptive individuals, realizing that early in the game that chemical agriculture was destroying the fertility of land and the flavor and nutritional value of food. Even AP, they say, is a stupendously talented farmer and that his successes in Australia are due to him experience-based insights into the needs of the land and the farms and not 'solely' due to the regular application of BD 500. (This one, I admit, I have problems with. I can't see how much direct input AP can have into millions of acres and hundreds of farms, many of which are operated with men who have no philosophical predisposition to holistic agriculture.) Thanks for bringing these points up, Lloyd. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
> I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton > both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops > reliably produced (this means year after year, something that > excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, > except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. > First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged Hi Allan Hmmm "crops reliably produced -year after year" I certainly would'nt make that claim for radionics(on its own), nor would I support it for biodynamics(on its own), it certainly does not happen in conventional agriculture, no one way is reliable when taken in isolation, and isolation is the special talent of scientists - when we eliminate the variables to allow a 'valid trial' we also eliminate many of the mechanisms that allow nature to function properly. When I go look at the people that are making alternative agriculture work well in most cases they are using a broad range of tactics, and if not they are happily sequestered on a patch of specially good and fertile soil that forgives the mistakes. Away from those places you mostly find that a balanced combination of good basic soil remineralisation, stimulation of microbial activity, and energetics is whats needed for best results, BD or radionics (energetics) without the minerals is a struggle, likewise a mineralised soil low in energy, microbial stimulation (compost tea etc) without attending to basic minerals will crash and burn one day too. Of course we can always take the other road and adjust yield expectations downward to come in line with the low fertility - many wine grape growers do this with seeming good results - planting on a dry barren hillside and thinning the crop, ' stressing the vines' so that the low supply of soil minerals is sufficient to give high quality fruit and make top grade wine - the logic of this escapes me but it seems to work - I think differently - why not grow on a more hospitable patch - aim for better yield and supply the minerals that are lacking ?? My thoughts anyway Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
I've got my wires x-d again. Will things that compost just soaking in an ocassionally stirred barrel is good for curing foliar diseases. It is my impression that he thinks it is actually better, perhaps simply because it is easier and cheaper to make than the aerated variety. He also thinks that 'just stirred' BC makes very good a very good foliar application and did publish an article on this in Biodynamics. I hope this is helpful -Allan "good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already." does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? This is a 'typo,' buddy. Will was saying that good BARREL COMPOST (BC) has everything we need if we simply prepare it as directed (stir for 20 minutes) This was based on studies from his lab, not from conjecture. Thanks for drawing this out. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Its just a shame though that these stories, just like mine, of achieving frost tolerance in wheat via high brix, are anecdotal and dont count!! (sorry Laura and Bill I believe you just like you would probably believe my brix thing) Lloyd et al - For the purposes of AY's request, it's fine if the reports are anecdotal. In fact, for these purposes, if you are talking about your own experiences, we won't call that anecdotal. If you are talking about a third party's good fortune, we'll have to consider that to be anecdotal. York (AY) is simply stating that he's never met anyone who has had repeated good luck with teas. He does not find it to be a reliable approach to managing a potentially lucrative crop. As he says "Let's face it, we're in business. I'm going with what works." In AY's mouth, though, this is never an excuse to grab the chem cans. He has a program of cultivation, fertilization, IPM and spraying that works for him. I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops reliably produced (this means year after year, something that excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, did Will say what kinds of studies or testing ? thanks, daniel will operates Woods End Lab, one of the oldest soil and microbiology labs in the country. Apparently he has published research on this topic in BIODYNAMICS. I'm searching for the article and will let you know more about it when I find it. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan Balliet wrote> (bravely) > Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the most astounding upshots > of this week's conference was the chance to meet with experienced > growers who have worked with compost tea and who have found teas to > be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim them to be. This was a very good post and despite Jeff's expected return was beneficial to the cause - Allan's has drawn a couple of good replies from Laura and Bill - using tea with good results - changing a spray program on 20 and 30 acres of vines away from chemical fungicides is a solid committment! . Its just a shame though that these stories, just like mine, of achieving frost tolerance in wheat via high brix, are anecdotal and dont count!! (sorry Laura and Bill I believe you just like you would probably believe my brix thing) L Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, did Will say what kinds of studies or testing ? thanks, daniel - Original Message - From: "Allan Balliett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts > > "good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling > >foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already." > > > >does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? > > This is a 'typo,' buddy. Will was saying that good BARREL COMPOST > (BC) has everything we need if we simply prepare it as directed (stir > for 20 minutes) This was based on studies from his lab, not from > conjecture. > > Thanks for drawing this out. -Allan > > >
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
"good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already." does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? This is a 'typo,' buddy. Will was saying that good BARREL COMPOST (BC) has everything we need if we simply prepare it as directed (stir for 20 minutes) This was based on studies from his lab, not from conjecture. Thanks for drawing this out. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Alan, thanks for this post, I find it very interesting. I have been interested in compost teas for some time and have played with a brewer of my own creation. When Will Brinton said, "good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already." does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? daniel - Original Message - From: "Allan Balliett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts > Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the most astounding upshots > of this week's conference was the chance to meet with experienced > growers who have worked with compost tea and who have found teas to > be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim them to be. > > Alan York asks people to ask the hard questions. He says a hard > question right now is 'Do you know of a vineyard that has effectively > controlled foliar disease with compost tea for three seasons.' He's > willing to back this question down to one season. (The unusually dry > summer this past year has eleviated foliar diseases across the board, > tea or no tea.) > > Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this > conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a > push towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves. > She said, and Will Brinton concurred, that it is the feeds in the > teas that select the final microbial mix and these microbes were not > necessarily the ones that would do as good of works as ones commonly > dominant in dry compost. Will Brinton stated that there is not need > for pumped up populations of microbials. He feels that this is > unfounded, unscientific hysteria. He went on to say that good compost > tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar > disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already!! Think about > it folks: > > Even better: Compost tea and brewer sales people in Pennsylvania have > received letters from the EPA telling them that they cannot sell > their products as disease control products because there is NO > SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE. > > Again - I'm sharing this info for your own evaluation. I've got egg > on my face, of course. > > -Allan > > > >
COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the most astounding upshots of this week's conference was the chance to meet with experienced growers who have worked with compost tea and who have found teas to be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim them to be. Alan York asks people to ask the hard questions. He says a hard question right now is 'Do you know of a vineyard that has effectively controlled foliar disease with compost tea for three seasons.' He's willing to back this question down to one season. (The unusually dry summer this past year has eleviated foliar diseases across the board, tea or no tea.) Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a push towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves. She said, and Will Brinton concurred, that it is the feeds in the teas that select the final microbial mix and these microbes were not necessarily the ones that would do as good of works as ones commonly dominant in dry compost. Will Brinton stated that there is not need for pumped up populations of microbials. He feels that this is unfounded, unscientific hysteria. He went on to say that good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already!! Think about it folks: Even better: Compost tea and brewer sales people in Pennsylvania have received letters from the EPA telling them that they cannot sell their products as disease control products because there is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE. Again - I'm sharing this info for your own evaluation. I've got egg on my face, of course. -Allan
Re: NYT Article/Homemade Compost tea Machine
Thanks, Perry, but I don't have Excel. My "Microsoft Word 98" software for my MAC was a gift from a friend and he did not give me the whole office array. I probably don't know how to understand a biological assay anyway. What you've already told me is enough to start on. Lloyd has told me a lot of stuff too. Until you've actually tried some of these ingredients, you can't know what will work for you. I did already find the article that you cited on making a 5 gallon brewer and, in fact, reprinted and offered it in our "Why Organic?" booth at the county fair along with a demonstration model. We used it for the garden last summer with only BD compost and molasses. I have no where to go but up. What I am trying to do is build a 40-50 gallon size CT maker for use with the garden and the road. The western US is expecting increased drought conditions and we only have 1/2 gal/min water and run out in August and September. I am hoping to rectify this with CT applications so we won't have to abandon certain crops this year. Last year we abandoned the keeper onions and the Brussels sprouts were not very large. We had a good fall planting of broccoli that we used CT on that was awesome. We're getting the hang of it. Herb was an aluminum designer in industry and designed window washing equipment for skyscrapers. He has 3-dimensional visualization and is dyslexic. He also is good with Rube Goldberg water configurations. I can never figure out the garden watering connections they're so complicated. He also makes hydraulic rams. He works intuitively and has trouble collaborating. I am on Elaine's CT list/serve and have a personal archive of all posts which I have read once. It's hard to grasp everything before you actually start using it and it's so garbled in little separate emails. I'm trying to reorganize all the relevant posts for him to read. He's really tied into his own projects, doesn't want to be bothered, but I don't give up. We have looked at a lot of pictures in the CT list files and I saw Jerry Brunetti's model at the Mid-Atlantic Conference. Herb can't understand that a lot of people have been working for years designing CT makers and that they have already established perameters. He finally realized that the bottom needed to be rounded so that anaerobic bacteria couldn't form in the cracks. I don't know what we will finally come up with or when. I try not to expect too much. I tend to be a perfectionist and a small pocketbook. My grant money can't be used for anything that is actually useful to me because everything has to be O.Kd by the Weed Supervisor and he feels it has to be something that makes sense to the conventional-thinking people in the county and state bureaucracy to cover his ass (pardon me). It would be political suicide for me to buy something to make a specialized piece of equipment that would be useful for years both to the road and to our farm. Am I bitter? Yes. But they will probably have to come around if I keep plugging. Best wishes, Merla Perry Clutts wrote: > Hi Merla, Check out this > site.http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/Tea/tea1.htmIt > gives good instructions (w/ photos) on how to build a small tea > machine... not really a machine, but a bucket bubbler. The > instructions show a manifold and several hoses. I just use a long > airstone that fits across the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket. If you > use a larger container, I would suggest there be enough air to keep > the compost moving around the container. Last year, for ingredients, I > used compost, 500, 508, BC, molasses, and cooked whole grains (wheat). > Remember, when designing a feeding program for the tea, less food can > make better tea... so you only need to use very small amounts. I've > got a copy of a biological assay from last summer I can send you if > you like (do you have MS Excel on your computer?). There are some > machines that cost under 100 $US, but the 5 gal system is around > 25$US. Perry > > I'm trying to get him to help me make a homemade compost > tea machine and he thinks he already knows everything > about it without listening to me. I love him! Best, > Merla >
Re: NYT Article/Homemade Compost tea Machine
Hi Merla, Check out this site. http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/Tea/tea1.htm It gives good instructions (w/ photos) on how to build a small tea machine... not really a machine, but a bucket bubbler. The instructions show a manifold and several hoses. I just use a long airstone that fits across the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket. If you use a larger container, I would suggest there be enough air to keep the compost moving around the container. Last year, for ingredients, I used compost, 500, 508, BC, molasses, and cooked whole grains (wheat). Remember, when designing a feeding program for the tea, less food can make better tea... so you only need to use very small amounts. I've got a copy of a biological assay from last summer I can send you if you like (do you have MS Excel on your computer?). There are some machines that cost under 100 $US, but the 5 gal system is around 25$US. Perry I'm trying to get him to help me make a homemade compost tea machine and he thinks he already knows everythingabout it without listening to me. I love him! Best, Merla
Re: compost tea
was alluded to in another conversation that populations shift on a 28 day lunar cycle, affected by cosmic events...sstorch Thanks, SS, for this important post. I am also hearing from people who test regularly that either the populations vary greatly with the same inputs -or- something strange happens in the Fed Ex truck! Let's hope you work progresses! -Allan
compost tea
In a message dated 1/15/03 7:38:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Does this mean anything to you? This is not static work. It is not only work that is being refined but it is also work in which, perhaps, problems have been detected and corrections offered. (e-coli) this is an evolving work. How does one know how to evaluate a piece of archival data if they are operating in a vacuum. (Reading the archive without working with the BD Now! group) Why avoid the living organization? I really don't understand. >> The tea is really a facinating thing. In my preliminary studies of it last year we looked under a Nikon Phase Contrast microscope capable of flourescence, dark phase, phase contrast and compound microscopy. The first day took me four hours to look over 1/4 inch of a microscope slide. A few weeks later I went back and the sample with the same exact inoculants and brew time, and brewer were identical. The samples were completely different. Totally different biology, I was baffled. In speaking with a brewer in California who was having the folks at UC Davis analyze samples, said that they gave up because each sample brought hundreds of previously unidentified species to the plate. They could not afford the time to analyze the dataand biology. It is my hope that through working with my Alma Mater, Southampton College, we can use some Marine Biological methods to analyze the teas. One such test will be the diurnal sampling. Here a sample is drawn and tested every hour four 24 hours. I would like to modify it to extend for 36-48 hours to get a good picture of vitality and decline in the teas. It was alluded to in another conversation that populations shift on a 28 day lunar cycle, affected by cosmic events...sstorch
Fw: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics
- Original Message - From: "Frank Teuton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics > Dear Dr Benbrook: > > I appreciate the tone of your post. > > The problem as I see it, is that a task force on compost issues, including > compost tea, was brought together that did not include any of the advocates, > advisors, or practitioners of compost tea making, specifically Dr Ingham and > some of the firms she works with. > > I don't pretend to understand the politics of who is in and who is out in > creating these groups, but I do know that when you exclude a group of > stakeholders from a process such as this, then issue a finding which > undermines their work directly, the result is not likely to be a satisfied > and happy bunch of campers. > > Any future body formed about the issues of compost tea should certainly > include Dr Ingham or someone who can represent a similar viewpoint. > Furthermore, the group should at least attempt to perform a literature > review, and conduct a sampling of the various commercially produced > products, for both positive and negative aspects. > > It should not be difficult to access the underlying research such a group > relies on for its recommendations. Every effort should be made to be open, > to receive and respond to comments, and to clearly state assumptions, > research needs, opinions of various task force members, and the basis of > recommendations and conclusions. > > It should also attempt to put these things into clear and simple language so > that farmers and other growers as well as consumers understand what is > known, what is assumed, and what else needs to be done. > > Clearly, no one out there has a total, thoroughgoing understanding of all > the details of microbial action in water, soil solution, phyllosphere, > rhizosphere and solid state environments such as drier soils and composting > and vermicomposting environments. Our best researchers, of which Elaine > Ingham is certainly one, admit that we are barely scratching the surface in > terms of knowing who all the actors are, and knowing exactly what each does. > > But, as Russel Bulluck used to like to close his posts: > > "The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot > be dealt with as a whole with any detail by any one person, > and at the same time it plays so important a part in the soil > economy that it must be studied. " > --Sir E. John Russell > The Micro-organisms of the Soil, 1923 > > Indeed in one of his pithier posts on a closely related topic, Russ lays out > the reality for us: > > "Here's the good news and the bad news. . . The good news is that pathogenic > strains of enteric bacteria (such as the dreaded E. coli O157:H7) produce > toxins that require a large energy output, and as such, these organisms are > not normally good competitors in the soil environment (being used to the gut > of cows, the bugs in the soil no longer have a constant and rich nutrient > supply or constant and pleasant 37 degrees C temp). The bad news is that > some > enteric bacteria will likely be found in soil! We don't live in a sterile > environment, but luckily, most of the bacteria in soil (and our food for > that > matter) are not harmful. > > > Let me say this. . . the food that we eat (be it vegetable, mineral or > animal) > has bacteria on it or in it. That's right, our food has bacteria in it. . . > millions of bacteria. Our skin has bacteria on it, as well as fungi, mites, > some nematodes (likely as not), and other bugs that literally make your skin > crawl (does everyone feel a little itchy now?). Most bacteria and fungi are > not that bad. If they were bad, we'd not be here! " > > http://www.sare.org/htdocs/hypermail/html-home/43-html/0129.html > > I personally want organic food to be food grown in a living soil, with a > full and active foodweb. That means, yes indeed, there will be millions of > bacteria on it, of a large diversity, and fungi, and other stuff. That > living food is what we all evolved on; it is what we have eaten for > countless millennia. > > People who want or need sterile food should either not buy organic food (or > conventional food, either, for that matter) or they should cook the heck out > of everything. > > I think the big bugaboo on compost tea down at the NOSB is fear of 0157. I > think every time 0157 is raised as an issue, it should be pointed out that > the big breeders of this pathogen are the CAFOs, especially grainfed cattle > feedlots. It is true that such operation
Fw: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics
- Original Message - From: "Chuck Benbrook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics > I have learned much from the ongoing dialogue re compost and compost > tea safety and thank the technical experts for taking the time to walk the > non-microbiologists among us through the issues/science. I agree there is > much more to learn re how to assure compost safety and that the U.S., for > certain, has underinvested in this promising technology. > > Still, the unresolved scientific and food safety issues surrounding > compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for not just the > sustainable ag/organic community, but also for FDA/USDA and practising soil > microbiologists. I appreciate the passion and knowledge Elaine brings to > this issue, and her patience and clarity in many recent posts, but her views > are not universally shared among the relatively small group of scientists > charged with the responsibility of advising the NOP/USDA re how to move > forward with the regulation of compost tea applications under the NOP. I > have had a chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force > with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which the work of > the task force has come under attack, from a variety of quarters. > > We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic > agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel of organic > farming and that they will misrepresent the views of scientists, government > agencies, the local bartender to make their point and raise concerns. Of > course they will also fully exploit any disagreements within the organic > community, a process now under way. > > The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious and > deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report and decisions > could be regarded as consistent with the precautionary principle. There > must be a very firm foundation if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits > applications of compost tea under circumstances that might, even very > occassionally, result in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination. Anyone > who believes that technology and processes now exist, or can readily be > developed, that would assure food safety following applications of compost > tea should take their case, and data, to the task force and other technical > advisory bodies. But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of these > bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are wrong. > Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical advisory body > conclusions is to assure that the committees in the future are composed of > open-minded people lacking conflicts of interest; are given the background > and data needed to understand the issues they have been asked to review; and > to package/present data and information before the committees in clear and > compelling ways. > > The way the organic community deals with potential compost food > safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping consumer > attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food. I hope everyone with > scientific/technical skills and experience on these issues will find a way > to work cooperatively and together to assure that the pursuit of the disease > control and agronomic benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of > patience, caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not > know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical control and > application of these technologies in the real world. > > Chuck Benbrook >
Fw: [compost_tea] Re: NOSB & Compost Tea
- Original Message - From: "Frank Teuton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: NOSB & Compost Tea > > - Original Message - > From: "Kirk Leonard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Compost Tea Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:41 PM > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: NOSB & Compost Tea > > > > On this one, Frank, I don't agree with your two cents. Is Richard Mathews > a > > personal friend of yours? I recall a key, acerbic element of his argument > > that sounds just like yours. > > Never met the man, never even heard of him until I read the minutes, Kirk. > But I do see that if there is not more regulation of what is done to make > compost teas, the 'food safety crisis' problem he mentions is going to be > pretty likely to occur. > > > > Yes, there is potential danger here, but it is > > so much less than Lysol by its very nature that I am comfortable forging > > ahead, without any particular strategy, actually, except biology is bigger > > and better than chemistry. > > > > You are going to have to show me how the Bess material was CFR 503 Class A > > compost based on what Elaine and Jack Houck have said. I would love to > see > > that chain of custody, also. T'wasn't good compost, pretty clearly, and a > > questionable tea machine. Eh? Class A doesn't permit ecoli-laced > material > > for any use above much lower levels than were used. We will figure out > > aeration standards soon, too. > > Class A biosolids compost levels for fecal coliforms are <1000 MPN/g. The > compost Bess used contained E.coli levels in the 10-100 MPN/g range, well > within the EPA 503c regs, unless there were extraordinarily large numbers of > other fecal coliforms present. > > http://www.epa.gov/owm/mtb/biosolids/503pe/503pe_5.pdf > > http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2000/compost/msg00162.html > > It is apparently true that OMRI standards for compost require nearly > complete E. coli eradication, <3 CFU/g : > > http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/1997/compost/msg05799.html > > I looked around for explanations of the difference between CFU and MPN > standards, and found: > > http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102cfunf.html > > http://www.jlindquist.net/generalmicro/102dil3.html > > So it is quite possible to get a virtually E. coli free compost, but Class A > EPA 503 regs do not require anything close to that. > > A negative test for E. coli in compost would need to be <1 CFU/g or 0 MPN/g, > wouldn't it? > > If you want an eyeful on E. coli in compost, read this article, Kirk: > > www.woodsend.org/microbia.pdf > > That article is part of the reason I place a lot more faith in vermophilic > compost than thermophilic compost. > > Remember this, Kirk, if we aren't ::ALWAYS:: right about this, there is a > serious risk of a 'food safety crisis' arising. > > The need for rigorous testing is not the death knell for compost tea > (amplified foodweb culture) technology. To the contrary, it is the sine qua > non for its safe development for fresh produce crops. > > I realize this E. coli business can be taken out to lunch, so to speak, and > I can imagine the fanatics trying to impose a 'Silent Spring' scenario to > get rid of all the birds flying over, and dropping on, farmer's fields. > > I mean, consider the days when passenger pigeons darkened the skies for > hours as a flock passedor the density of droppings along a wall covered > with Virginia Creeper or similar bird magnet vines. > > We all live, as the microbiology prof told my late father in law, in a thin > layer of fecal material...shaking hands and hugging your kids is fraught > with hazard...;-) > > But still, we do need to put safeguards in place. Get the testing regimen in > place, get everyone to sign on, and let's move this process forward. > > Frank Teuton >
FW: [SANET-MG] NOSB minutes on Compost Tea (From JP)
Title: FW: [SANET-MG] NOSB minutes on Compost Tea (From JP) Let's clarify the different kinds of compost tea that you might be concerned with, and ones that you don't need to be concerned with. If I forget a category, or you see the need to split a category, please chime in - First, if you apply tea made from any source more than 90 to 120 days before the crop surface would be consumed, there are no worries. Second, compost tea made from plant-based, no human waste compost. E. coli is not present in the starting materials, not present in the compost. This category should be of no concern to folks with respect to the human pathogen question. Third, compost tea made with food waste material that could have low levels of E. coli. E. coli is fairly easily reduced to non-detectable levels with this type of compost. Testing might be necessary to document that E. coli is not present in the final compost material, and that it is then safe to apply to food plants. Fourth, manure-based tea is what the E. coli concern is all about. We can make compost tea from manure-based compost without any E. coli in the final tea. BUT people also manage to make compost tea from manure-based compost that contains E. coli. The problem becomes, how do you KNOW that you managed to exit the E. coli from the tea? What are the parameters that allow E.coli (and other human pathogens) to be destroyed? We have done it, but now we need to understand what the important factors are in producing these teas routinely. So, that's where the situation is. Don't go ballistic about compost tea in general. But on plants that you eat without washing the surface of the material you are going to consume, stay away from compost tea made with manure-based compost. Elaine Ingham President, Soil Foodweb Inc. www.soilfoodweb.com
urgent: compost tea on vines, AUS
Hi, We are formulating a preliminary research proposal to Grape and Wine Research & Development Council (GWRDC) for looking at standardisation and efficacy of compost tea for disease control with commmercially available compost and grower made compost. I had feedback from organic vege growers that they are interested in that sort of research. but since GWRDC funds grape research only I need feedback from grape growers. By spreading the project over several industries (grape and vege) because of some shared components it wouild reduce industry cost and increase the chance to get the proposal acccepted. Anyone out there in Australia growing grapes who would like to see us doing research on compost tea? Christiane
RE: Compost Tea List/tomatoes
Liz & Roger, thanks for your input. Glad to hear others are having success with Wilber's method. On another note, through inter-public library loan, I was able to get a copy of Koliskos book 'Agriculture of Tomorrow'. Only took about a week to get it. Public libraries can be a very good resource. -Chris -Original Message- From: Liz Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Compost Tea List/tomatoes on 29/8/02 8:40 AM, Roger Pye at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Trem, Chris wrote: > >> Will try Charles Wilber's method of growing tomatoes next year, my cages >> won't be more than 8 feet tall though. >> > I came across an idea in an Australian magazine (Grass Roots, I think) > for growing tomatoes. Materials needed are six empty 20 litre (5 gallon) > drums (like the ones motor oil comes in), three pieces of steel concrete > mesh 2.4m (8 feet) long by 1.2m wide and six steel star pickets (posts). > Of course the mesh can be as long as needed. > > Prepare the bed. Place the drums in position so a piece of mesh will > lay flat on top with two drums at each end and two in the middle set > back from the edges of the mesh a bit. Drive steel posts well into into > the ground on the inside of the four corners and on the inside of the > middle section aligned with the others. Securely wire the mesh to the > posts. Pull the drums out and reposition then on the mesh. Lay another > piece on the drums, fitting it over the posts. Wire it to the posts. > Repeat the process with the third piece. Take the drums away and use > them for something else. > SNIP> > > Friends of mine who live in a rocky area tried this method as getting stakes into their ground proved to be a difficult task. They are very pleased with the results of this method, they've had higher yields and less problems all around with their tomatoes. > Liz >
Re: Compost Tea List/tomatoes
on 29/8/02 8:40 AM, Roger Pye at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Trem, Chris wrote: > >> Will try Charles Wilber's method of growing tomatoes next year, my cages >> won't be more than 8 feet tall though. >> > I came across an idea in an Australian magazine (Grass Roots, I think) > for growing tomatoes. Materials needed are six empty 20 litre (5 gallon) > drums (like the ones motor oil comes in), three pieces of steel concrete > mesh 2.4m (8 feet) long by 1.2m wide and six steel star pickets (posts). > Of course the mesh can be as long as needed. > > Prepare the bed. Place the drums in position so a piece of mesh will > lay flat on top with two drums at each end and two in the middle set > back from the edges of the mesh a bit. Drive steel posts well into into > the ground on the inside of the four corners and on the inside of the > middle section aligned with the others. Securely wire the mesh to the > posts. Pull the drums out and reposition then on the mesh. Lay another > piece on the drums, fitting it over the posts. Wire it to the posts. > Repeat the process with the third piece. Take the drums away and use > them for something else. > SNIP> > > Friends of mine who live in a rocky area tried this method as getting stakes into their ground proved to be a difficult task. They are very pleased with the results of this method, they've had higher yields and less problems all around with their tomatoes. > Liz >
Re: Compost Tea List
Trem, Chris wrote: >Will try Charles Wilber's method of growing tomatoes next year, my cages won't be >more than 8 feet tall though. > I came across an idea in an Australian magazine (Grass Roots, I think) for growing tomatoes. Materials needed are six empty 20 litre (5 gallon) drums (like the ones motor oil comes in), three pieces of steel concrete mesh 2.4m (8 feet) long by 1.2m wide and six steel star pickets (posts). Of course the mesh can be as long as needed. Prepare the bed. Place the drums in position so a piece of mesh will lay flat on top with two drums at each end and two in the middle set back from the edges of the mesh a bit. Drive steel posts well into into the ground on the inside of the four corners and on the inside of the middle section aligned with the others. Securely wire the mesh to the posts. Pull the drums out and reposition then on the mesh. Lay another piece on the drums, fitting it over the posts. Wire it to the posts. Repeat the process with the third piece. Take the drums away and use them for something else. Plant seeds/seedlings. As plants develop they will grow up through the holes and the fruit will lay on the mesh. I would also put a 50-75mm layer of hay-type mulch on the bed before seedlings are planted. Trials in vineyards in South Australia and Victoria a few years ago showed 75mm (3") as optimum depth, anything over that being a waste and in fact too much of a block. The advantages of mulch over no mulch were - 30% increase in yield, thicker stems and bigger grapes, much less watering required. The yield increase was through reduced fruit loss. Worth a thought. roger
RE: Compost Tea List
>Thanks Steve and Frank for your excellent examples of the sort of >food production experience that should be being shared more and more >on this list. -Allan I wanted to do lots in the garden this fall & winter but the wife wants to get all the house renovations done as soon as possible, so... the honey-do list has pretty much replaced the garden to-do list for now. I am brewing a batch of cow manure tea in an 80 gallon container to which was added 1,000 ml of homeopathic compost preps with a spritz of 508 on the top. Another batch of compost preps will be added again later. The tea will be put out through the drip system and sprayed on the plants. All I have time to grow now are cover crops. The cow peas are doing well against grasshopper attacks but the sun hemp was devoured. Every one is having lots of problems with grasshoppers here in southern Arizona. Every summer when the monsoons come the eggs hatch and it's a big problem. I tried using nosema on them, hopefully it will help but I definitely plan to do some serious ashing. I'm waiting for the next installment of H. Courtney's recomendations to find out when the next best ashing period is. I made up a batch of homeopathic Azomite that I spray on the ground and even a batch of homeopathic humic acid. Would like to do petry dish tests with them to see how the different potencies influence sprouting... as time permits next year. Will try Charles Wilber's method of growing tomatoes next year, my cages won't be more than 8 feet tall though. He speaks so highly of Kudzu that I ordered some seed and will make compost and tea from it and see for myself. Also, plans are under way to build a root cellar. Why not take advantage of the natural coolness of the earth. It should work well in the hot summer's here. -Chris
Re: Compost Tea List
Thanks Steve and Frank for your excellent examples of the sort of food production experience that should be being shared more and more on this list. For the record: because I believe Will Brinton and have seen his studies, I believe Elaine and am following her suggestions. I am very excited about her theories, especially when they are expressed through her mouth, but I am not yet satisfied with their performance in practice. I am VERY aware, however, that any short comings I have with compost tea could be explained by previously un-noted problems I have will delivering spray. I'm working on getting a better sprayer for next season. I am also very interested in piping tea (incl BC) to the my rows on a continual basis (inspired by Bob Cannard) I know there are several people on this list who are using drip to put compost teas out. I'd appreciate it if they'd find the time to share their experiences here. What did I learn this season? I'm going full cycle: I'm back to COMPOST COMPOST and MORE COMPOST, but that will be behind, beneath or whatever, all the other techniques I've picked up in the last few years. I think my dynamics and foliars asked too much of too little soil carbon this year. Next year (by which I mean this year ie I'm putting compost down now for next season) there'ss going to lots of compost in and on the soil. -Allan
Re: Compost Tea List
Hey Steve, Allan, et al: Given that cucurbits are notoriously volatile in terms of being up and running full steam one day, and down from a disease the next, crashes in the production thereof are somewhat to be expected from time to time. I must admit to a certain perverse satisfaction that the Great Storch has hit obstacles in his efforts to grow the Great Pumpkin, if only to demonstrate that BD growers are heir to the same problems that can plague everyone else. I salute his candor in 'fessin' up. If Allan and Elaine are right about compost tea, regular apps of compost tea could have prevented Steve's problem. Last year I grew white pumpkins on very rich soil that were packed tight foliage wise, and had no problems with powdery mildew ( I assume this is what Steve means by 'downy' but could be mistaken). In fact I still have one of them, that has kept well past the normal 'due date'.:-) But, as they say here, 'une annee ne resemble pas a une autre' (every year is different). Maybe my pumpkin patch of last year would have been nailed like Steve's this year. Maybe compost tea, or horsetail, or some other stuff applied at the right time would have saved it. You never step in the same river twice, which keeps kayaking from getting too boring, eh? I agree with Steve that spacing matters; nearly everything matters. If he had the same big rains this spring that we did, the stage was set for problems (too much water followed by not enough water = stressed plants). In any community garden plot on the island of Montreal, you can see some extremely tight spacing with high productivity, and due to very rich soil and regular watering, little disease in many cases. I once grew 22 canteloupes in a 4 x 5 space in one of mine! And, I also agree that compost tea is one tool among many, and cannot substitute for other good management practices. Subtle energies, it seems to me, can only go so far in correcting fundamental problems. In my own case, lack of water on deep sandy soil means we need to first and foremost organize ourselves to irrigate our land at least three months of the year. This point was driven home to us clearly by the drought we are now experiencing for the last two months. If I believed in Hugh's rainmaking abilities, I suppose I would order a Field Broadcaster and just ask for rain through it. But, I think instead I will go the more prosaic route, pumps and pipes and sprinklers. O me of little faith! And, while compost tea, properly made, can help with foliar problems, it cannot make up for too much water or not enough water, when these problems are severe. Otherwise people would be fighting floods and droughts with compost tea, which really wouldn't make sense, eh? One nice bonus to regular irrigation is the ability to move the tea to the field through the sprinkler system ( I have expressed my skepticism about the ability of drip systems to handle the tea, although some of the disposable ones might do it, much of the benefit would be lost in filtration). So, the irrigation system can now replace the tractor and sprayer most of the time as the tea delivery system. We also got a lot of mulching done this year, which will pay off down the road. But still, on land that could use two inches of rain a week, water is de rigeur, which means we gotta have it. Frank Teuton---humbly acknowledging that humus needs humidity... - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Compost Tea List > > In a message dated 8/28/02 6:30:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << > Just the same, I'm very, very, VERY interested in hearing from you > what a person could be doing wrong in SEED BED PREPARATION, PLANTING, > SOWING, or CULTIVATION that would promote fungal diseases. >> > > Well, for instance we had a gorgeous patch of earth and over the fall and > winter we had turnips and rudabegahs there. I ate as many as I could and I > picked the remainder for the cows. By Winter's end I had stuff the size of > soccer balls. The soil has classic bd crumb structure, earthworm every three > to four inches, and you could see the fungal filaments in the soil. I > thought wow, what a great field for squash or pumpkins this summer. Sure > enough pumpkins go in. Planted way to dense. Plants come up and look great, > fruit set is incredible. Weather turns nasty hot, dry then rains, turns humid > and they get wailed with downy. So now we have three acres of soccerball > size pumpkins in August and no vines with leaves left. What a lost opp > ortunity...sstorch >
Re: Compost Tea List
In a message dated 8/28/02 6:30:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Just the same, I'm very, very, VERY interested in hearing from you what a person could be doing wrong in SEED BED PREPARATION, PLANTING, SOWING, or CULTIVATION that would promote fungal diseases. >> Well, for instance we had a gorgeous patch of earth and over the fall and winter we had turnips and rudabegahs there. I ate as many as I could and I picked the remainder for the cows. By Winter's end I had stuff the size of soccer balls. The soil has classic bd crumb structure, earthworm every three to four inches, and you could see the fungal filaments in the soil. I thought wow, what a great field for squash or pumpkins this summer. Sure enough pumpkins go in. Planted way to dense. Plants come up and look great, fruit set is incredible. Weather turns nasty hot, dry then rains, turns humid and they get wailed with downy. So now we have three acres of soccerball size pumpkins in August and no vines with leaves left. What a lost opp ortunity...sstorch
Re: Compost Tea List
>In a message dated 8/27/02 6:39:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > ><< >Neither of the above are appropriate to use for foliar disease >control >> > >If you are managing these dis-eases during growing season you must admit to >yourself that you have done something wrong in the seed bed preparation, >planting, sowing, cultivation or choice of plant in the location. sstorch Give me a break, Steve. It's statements like the ones above that put such a weird twist to biodynamics as a practice and prevent many people from actually observing their patch and doing what it needs as they ponder whether they are worthy of growing plants or not. The level of health that you refer to above does not occur instantly. It must be achieved. Not all of us are lucky enough to be working right now in established biodynamic landscapes. I don't know of any reasonable experienced person who would think that a person could take any piece of non-BD ground and believe that they could make it into a garden that hummed in harmony with the cosmos in anything less than 3 years. Many have told me that SEVEN years is the key, that it's at SEVEN years that the preps REALLY kick in. Seven years of conscientious biodynamic management to achieve the level of health through the bd soil and atmosphere that you are apparently taking for granted at your place right now. In the meantime, it's very helpful to many of us to have access to non-intrusive, pro-diversity biological tools like compost tea to keep the garden in trim as we work to that balanced future. Just the same, I'm very, very, VERY interested in hearing from you what a person could be doing wrong in SEED BED PREPARATION, PLANTING, SOWING, or CULTIVATION that would promote fungal diseases. (A a more precise choice of words in your original post might be DON'T GARDEN SOUTH OF THE MASON-DIXON, of course.)
Re: Compost Tea List
Jose, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Merla Jose Luiz M Garcia wrote: > I have been thru all Yahoo Groups and could not > find the new Compost Tea List. > Can someone give me the exact address ? > > Thank You > > jose
Re: Compost Tea List
In a message dated 8/27/02 6:39:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Neither of the above are appropriate to use for foliar disease control >> If you are managing these dis-eases during growing season you must admit to yourself that you have done something wrong in the seed bed preparation, planting, sowing, cultivation or choice of plant in the location. sstorch
Compost Tea List
I have been thru all Yahoo Groups and could not find the new Compost Tea List. Can someone give me the exact address ? Thank You jose
Re: Compost Tea List
>I think bdnow has the most cutting edge compost tea happenen. If you are >using bd compost and barrel compost no one can make better tea than >that.sstorch Steve - Neither of the above are appropriate to use for foliar disease control. Compost tea, made with BD Composst and Barrel Compost and BD 508 and paramagnetic rock, and good molasses and choice humates and (on and on) is pretty hot stuff. I'm glad it's a choice for me in managing my garden, as are BC and BD compost themselves. -Allan
Re: Compost Tea List
In a message dated 8/26/02 2:24:02 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << It makes me think that there must be ANOTHER CT list somewhere, one that I'm not subscribed to! >> I think bdnow has the most cutting edge compost tea happenen. If you are using bd compost and barrel compost no one can make better tea than that.sstorch
Re: Compost Tea List
Steve Diver wrote: >So, you have to click twice to read one message. To get back >to the list of email messages, you also have to click twice. Each >time, you have to wait for the webmail page to load. > >Is that what ecological agriculture is coming to? > >Instead of enhancing and facilitating the flow of information, >we are constrained to corporate web hosts and their >advertisements? > Yahoo have adopted something I call the 'falling marble' principle. Esoterically it can be visualised as a vertical tube with channels going off it at different heights and angles, each of which has a flipover entrance door. The channels rejoin the tube further down. Drop a marble down the tube; if there are no obstructions (that is, all the doors are closed), the marble falls straight through. In the yahoo case, the advertisements constitute obstructions (doors) which deflect marbles (their mailing list subscribers and visitors alike) away from the tube down channels lined with advert hoardings and then back to the tube. People who join yahoo mailing lists are automatically confronted with advertisements. Most put up with the inconvenience and annoyance - I run 4 yahoo! lists and am on several others - if only for keeping up to date with stuff they joined the lists for. In fact, there are a lot of people who join these mailing lists who are only exposed to the minor inconvenience of ads accompanying their emails into their inboxes because they never go near the website (usually they become confused by yahoo's registration process which has all the hallmarks of being designed by an infant chimpanzee, and give up). Subscribers can eliminate adverts from their incoming yahoo emails. I think it costs about $US10.00 a month but don't quote me. At least two of the mailing lists I'm on do this. So yahoo can't lose. First it gets income from the businesses which advertise on its sites, then from subscribers who pay the fee, then from commission from businesses when subscribers buy advertised products. It has ever been thus in recorded history - take a great idea and ruin it by turning it into a money-making proposition. Like Planet Earth, for example :( roger
Re: Compost Tea List
- Original Message - From: Steve Diver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 3:06 AM Subject: Re: Compost Tea List > Allan asks "What's with the compost tea list?" > > Instead of enhancing and facilitating the flow of information, > we are constrained to corporate web hosts and their > advertisements? > > Steve Diver Yep - the compost tea list has crashed and burned after a successful takeoff ! Lloyd Charles > > > > > > > >
Re: Compost Tea List
Hi! Steve, I understand that part of the slowness with Yahoo has to do with the US Intelligence software that scans every post and keeps track of who is accessing which material and inter links who exchanges with whom and that sort of thing. Over here we have Ozemail, which is a part of Yahoo. Late last year, most of our independent SPs "got rolled" by the Telcos who put up charges until they could no longer exist. The only way we could continue to access our old email addresses (for a period) was to go with Ozemail/ Yahoo. I was a candidate in the last Federal Election and had no option, unless I wanted to disappear (electronically speaking). The drop in speed and quality has been marked and I for one still miss the much more advanced and far quicker system we had before the take over. Gil Steve Diver wrote: > Allan asks "What's with the compost tea list?" > > It moved from Ibiblio.org to YahooGroups. > > This seems like a simple matter, but it is actually > quite a change that is less user-friendly and > functional. Snip
Re: Compost Tea List
>Allan asks "What's with the compost tea list?" Points well taken, Steven Diver. What concerns me, however, is the hurdy-gurdy nature of the compost tea list and the general lack of content. It makes me think that there must be ANOTHER CT list somewhere, one that I'm not subscribed to! (Yes, I made the move to YAHOO!) Thanks for your input. -Allan
Re: Compost Tea List
Allan asks "What's with the compost tea list?" It moved from Ibiblio.org to YahooGroups. This seems like a simple matter, but it is actually quite a change that is less user-friendly and functional. Ibiblio email lists, which include Permaculture, are true listserv-style email lists with accompanying web archives. Ibliblio.org is hosted by a public institution which promotes information technology and resource sharing. YahooGroups is a WebMail-style email list. It has archives, yet it is based on WebMail-style archiving and access. This means you have to wade through the *very* slow load time at Yahoo to view each entry. Yahoo loads up with Java, and Java causes many computers to freeze up and crash. Also, you have to "register" with YahooGroups. Well, Compost Tea at YahooGroups exists, so it is still there. Yet, I voice opposition to bland-thinking when it comes to blanket adoption of corporate-hosted electronic web forums. Here are some examples of web archives: BD-Now - Biodynamics Now! [archives at CSF] http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ CSF hosts a number of lists. The beauty of this web archive is the simple web address assigned to each email posting. You can easily use this link as a referral to a previous posting of merit. BD-Now through The Mail Archive: Date Index http://www.mail-archive.com/bdnow@envirolink.org/maillist.html BD-Now through The Mail Archive: Thread Index http://www.mail-archive.com/bdnow@envirolink.org/index.html The Mail Archive is another way to access BD-Now, and it has the additional *power* of a search engine. However, The Mail Archive version only goes back to a certain point in time... May 2002? Permaculture Archives at CSF http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/lists/ The Permaculture Archives at Ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/ Compost Tea List at Ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/compostteas/ The old site, fast loading with easy access. Compost Tea at YahooGroups http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/ The new site, slow loading with not-too-easy access. You get the idea. Fascinating, I just tried the YahooGroup webmail archive and clicked on a single message. Instead of loading the message, a web page opens with a a large ad banner. Above the banner it says: "Yahoo! Groups is an advertising supported service. Continue to message" So, you have to click twice to read one message. To get back to the list of email messages, you also have to click twice. Each time, you have to wait for the webmail page to load. Is that what ecological agriculture is coming to? Instead of enhancing and facilitating the flow of information, we are constrained to corporate web hosts and their advertisements? Steve Diver
Re: Compost Tea List
Yeah Allen, it is refreshing to be able to wash your hands and sit and easily contact likeminded folk. Makes you feel so not alone in the world here...SStorch
Compost Tea List
What's with the compost tea list? It seemed like it was going to be the be-all and end-all of sustainable organic agriculture. Instead its this very unsatisfying hurdy-gurdy. Nothing flows. Worse, Elaine is virtually totally absent (of course, she's probably been lost in OZ recently) My question to CT list people: do I only feel like I'm only receiving half of the messages that must be sent to the list, or is there some Gison 'cut up' aspect to it? Market Farming went through a similar 'conversion' a few years back. A couple of weeks of being the best grower's list imaginable and now a fairly mundane group of people. While I'm at it, what in the world has happened to SANET in the last few years? I'm happy to take this opportunity to thank contributers to BD Now! for the many hours that they put in at their keyboards to support BD Now! Thanks to the hundreds of 'lurkers' who continue to give BD Now! it's sense of 'presence.' -Allan >here is my experience with compost tea list. Which was once >here and working OK - I have tried to no avail to get connected since they >moved - I just wasted another hour and a half this morning - the yahoo site >is a clutter of commercial rubbish, every time I tried to get on I was told >someone else was already using my name and login and I should go away and >think up another one - I finally got in this morning (I thought) then >couldnt find the archive - the whole thing has been frustrating and if I >eventually succeed the site is a mess of other stuff and slow to operate as >well. So hang in there we have got a good thing going with this list >Cheers all >Lloyd Charles
compost tea list
I noticed a new compost tea list http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas I see Allan is already signed on. == Dave Robison
pump for compost tea
The perfect pump is air, how many gallons are you brewing??? Air is the best mover of water... SStorch Mime-Version: 1.0 I have 25 acres of grapes to treat and will use a 1,000 litre (approx. 250 gallon) tank to brew in. Due to time constraints etc. I'd like to brew enough to do the whole vineyard in one go. I do have a continuous duty air pump (heavy duty) and currently only one 12" pond aeration style air stone. I planned to order small bubble diffusers too. Have listers had better experience using aeration hose ? I will need to pump to get the tea out as it would be a real task to lift the 1,000 litre poly tank higher than my sprayer. Another question though - my sprayer has a diaghram pump what PSI are people spraying at ? using T Jet nozzles and swirl plates and size and pattern are you spraying with ? >Could the original poster please repost the link to vortex pumps ? thanks >I am looking for the "perfect" pump for my compost tea brewer Laura - You do not need to pump compost tea to brew it. You do need to pump it out of the barrel, if you want to filter it in the process, but you don't need to even do that if you just open a drain at the bottom of the tank and let gravity do the work. What you do need is an excellent airpump and excellent aeration hoses that will infuse the water with oxygen and agitate the compost at the same time. None of the better brewers circulate the tea itself. -Allan Mime-Version: 1.0 Laura Sabourin Feast of Fields Inc Demeter Certified Vineyard & Farm http://www.ragdolls.net/vineyard.htm Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm R R # 1 St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7
RES: Good Compost Tea Article
Excellent article. Thanks for the contribution. I love you all Jose - Another ACRES reprint at http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/composttea_feb01.pdf, this one by Mary Howell-Martens provides a great overview of the brewing and use of compost tea -Allan
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
Steve - I don't want to nit-pick, but I wonder how the vortices in my flowform cascade are not peripheral ? The flowforms are thin plastic shells and, inside each one, the liquid flows around the outer edge in twin vortices before joining in chaotic discharge into the next flowform beneath. That seems to be about as peripheral as in a bucket ? Thanks for your suggestion that I should double the time to 20 mins. Tony N-S.
Good Compost Tea Article
Another ACRES reprint at http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/composttea_feb01.pdf, this one by Mary Howell-Martens provides a great overview of the brewing and use of compost tea -Allan
Stirring Preps -- Was: Flow forms and compost tea
In preparing any preps for application, we use our intuitive tools to determine how long a prep needs to be stirred. In our case, we are currently only stirring for a garden and need one 5 gallon bucket of solution. As always, we set up a coning (intuitive connection) with the Overlighting Deva of our farm, OL Deva of BD preps, OD Deva of Light Expression Essences, OL Deva of the vegetable garden. With these connections, it has always been found that there one vibrational essence which is requested for the mix -- for us, it has always been a special "in-house" essence of amethyst or Lava; the prep which was to be applied: and water from our well. I always incorporate Reiki into the process -- hopefully to more quickly and perhaps to add energetic appropriateness to the solution. Stirring creating full vortices, I have found that for most stirrings, the time required and determined through dowsing is around 45 minutes for completion of the stirring on the preps which have stated a need in literature of 1 hour stirring. Strangely, recently, I did a sequential spray to start the season and the stirring necessary for the Combo of prepared BD500 and BC was 45 minutes, the 501 was 45 minutes, but, the horn clay was only about 25 minutes. In the past, when using this method of determining the stirring time, and with stirring similar times on similar preps, we have produced gardens that grew in unbelievable ways. We had marigolds that grew to 18 inches in heighth and same in width -- blue corn grew to ten feet in heighth -- everything was abundant!!! Anyway, it is just a process. Peace. Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern "Expressing the Light" http://www.ExpressingTheLight.com "A Ministry Dedicated to the Divine Process" and "Light Expression Essences" http://www.LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
In a message dated 5/9/02 12:37:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << As I've mentioned before, I circulate the prep solution around the flowform cascade with a hand-operated diaphragm pump (small-boat bilge-pump) and I treat it as a sort of t'ai-chi exercise, attempting to concentrate my energy and intentions into the flowing liquid, so I hope it is gaining something from me as well as from the succession of vortices and chaotic mixing. The main argument seems to be whether 10 mins is long enough for this to produce results. Could we have input from others who use flowforms in this way, please >> It is probably half the required time. What you are doing with flowforms is developing spring or stream quality water. The vortices you have created do enliven the water and of course imprint the remedies on it. You are not however forming the vortex from the periphery, which is the eternally creative inteligence of God...SStorch
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
Allan - I have 14 tiers, as used at Emerson College. I think I remember their telling me that they ran preps for 10 mins - but, also, I calculated that 10 mins' circulation through them equals as many vortices and reversals (chaos) as I'd get in an hour's hand-stirring.Tony N-S.
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
>Instead of stirring, I run water plus prep (for spraying or compost heap, >not to make tea) through a cascade of flowforms for about 10 mins. Do I win >both ways or get the booby prize ? Tony N-S. How did you arrive at 10 minutes, Tony. Not saying I'm right, of course, but I've always stirred 500 and 501 for an hour in the 3 tier flow forms. -Allan
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
Instead of stirring, I run water plus prep (for spraying or compost heap, not to make tea) through a cascade of flowforms for about 10 mins. Do I win both ways or get the booby prize ? Tony N-S.
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
There is a big difference between the Steiner remedies and compost tea. The truth is, that I have restored our farm with cold well or rain water. I can count on one hand how many times I have used warm water. Rudy sez that you may want to use warm water, not mandatory, for those who plung their arm in and stir I highly recommend it. With the compost tea I am getting as high a population of the beneficials as I would like. The SFI method is based on high volume and repetition, where I have accomplished the same results with one tenth the spray applications using biodynamics. So for those who are not ready for bd, SFI is a great alternative and supplement for soil food...SStorch
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
> > Steve and all-- I see on page 68 of her Gardening for >Life book that Maria Thun recommends against using >"dynamized water" that has been through the flow forms >for use in mixing the preparations. Just guessing, I'd assume that dynamized water had already 'imprinted' with someting else just as we would hope to imprint 'wild' water with the signature of the preps. Perhaps a 'clearing' process would allow the 'dynamized' water to be used for preps. Otherwise, good, clean, natural, warm, water s.b. fine. -Allan
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
Friends - My recollection is that Steiner recommends WARM WATER for stirring the preps. This has always been a curiosity to me, a guy who likes to dip his water from the rainbarrel. The folks at Earthworks, the folks whom, I understand, are hitting the highest numbers for ALL THE MICROBES in their SFI tests, are recommending that you start tea brewing at 71 degrees. Starting any lower than that means substantially reduced microbial counts. Maybe, Steve, if you heat your water before brewing, you can re-take the high count crown. -Allan >In a message dated 5/5/02 9:01:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > ><< Steve and all-- I see on page 68 of her Gardening for >Life book that Maria Thun recommends against using >"dynamized water" that has been through the flow forms >for use in mixing the preparations. > >> > >I have been using well water right out of the ground sand the first exposure >this water gets is some air, light and bam the preps go in and get stirred... >sstorch
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
In a message dated 5/5/02 9:01:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Steve and all-- I see on page 68 of her Gardening for Life book that Maria Thun recommends against using "dynamized water" that has been through the flow forms for use in mixing the preparations. >> I have been using well water right out of the ground sand the first exposure this water gets is some air, light and bam the preps go in and get stirred... sstorch
Re: Flow forms and compost tea
Steve and all-- I see on page 68 of her Gardening for Life book that Maria Thun recommends against using "dynamized water" that has been through the flow forms for use in mixing the preparations. Do you know why she recommended this? Does this apply to making compost tea? Is the point of the flow forms to increase O2 in the tea? Any other comments, explanations? Dorothy __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com
Re: compost tea
Hi! Dave, I understand that in each case it was salmonella. I do not understand how the build up came about. My information came from a talk by a BD/ Organic Inspector, who was pointing out that Organic is not necessarily healthy. His message was one of the need to practice care with matters such as minimizing soil to produce transfer of organisms. He said that in Australia, a disproportional high percentage of food poisoning is traced back to organic producers. While not advocating chemicals, he was calling for care. Gil Dave Robison wrote: > Gil-- > I'm not a biologist but I don't fully understand the cases you described. > > >We have had two serious cases of bacterial poisoning that has been traced > >back to > >Organic growers. > > > >The first concerned orange juice made from a mixture of organic and > >conventional > >fruit. Many people were poisoned and a major national brand nearly ruined > >by it. > >When it was traced back to the grower, it was an organic grower, who was using > >irrigation in an area with almost no rainfall and thus the folia spray had not > >washed off the fruit when it was processed, resulting in the bacteria getting > >into the fresh juice. (The whole orange is crushed, so anything on the > >skin can > >be mixed in with the juice.) > > If there's no rain and presumably not fungal disease on the tree, why spray > a foliar application? Is it supposed to be foliar fertilizer? Is it > supposed to provide longer shelf life for the fruit? > What kind of bacteria would make people sick? Salmonella? E. coli? Were > these present in the compost? Or the tea? My expectation is that well made > compost should not have such bacteria present. Nor should properly aerobic tea. > > >The other was only a few days ago and from the early report it seems to be > >very > >high bacteria counts in salad vegetables. This occurred in a very up market > >establishment and may cause them to stop using organic product. > > What kind of bacteria? I can't imagine that there would be a problem unless > it was something like salmonella. Was such a bacteria coming from compost? > Or was it raw manure? As far as I know, the cases we had of dangerous E. > coli came from raw manure, in some cases from cows ranging in the orchard > and windfall fruit being harvested from the ground. > This is an important issue because the scare factor from these cases > resulted in the gov't developing completely unrealistic regulations > regarding compost turning etc. > > == > Dave Robison
compost tea
Gil-- I'm not a biologist but I don't fully understand the cases you described. >We have had two serious cases of bacterial poisoning that has been traced >back to >Organic growers. > >The first concerned orange juice made from a mixture of organic and >conventional >fruit. Many people were poisoned and a major national brand nearly ruined >by it. >When it was traced back to the grower, it was an organic grower, who was using >irrigation in an area with almost no rainfall and thus the folia spray had not >washed off the fruit when it was processed, resulting in the bacteria getting >into the fresh juice. (The whole orange is crushed, so anything on the >skin can >be mixed in with the juice.) If there's no rain and presumably not fungal disease on the tree, why spray a foliar application? Is it supposed to be foliar fertilizer? Is it supposed to provide longer shelf life for the fruit? What kind of bacteria would make people sick? Salmonella? E. coli? Were these present in the compost? Or the tea? My expectation is that well made compost should not have such bacteria present. Nor should properly aerobic tea. >The other was only a few days ago and from the early report it seems to be >very >high bacteria counts in salad vegetables. This occurred in a very up market >establishment and may cause them to stop using organic product. What kind of bacteria? I can't imagine that there would be a problem unless it was something like salmonella. Was such a bacteria coming from compost? Or was it raw manure? As far as I know, the cases we had of dangerous E. coli came from raw manure, in some cases from cows ranging in the orchard and windfall fruit being harvested from the ground. This is an important issue because the scare factor from these cases resulted in the gov't developing completely unrealistic regulations regarding compost turning etc. == Dave Robison
Flow Forms and Compost Tea (from SFW)
(From Elaine Ingham's monthly newsletter. You can get the current edition or subscribe at http://www.soilfoodweb.com Frankly, I find this report confusing, but the first sentence is pretty encouraging! -Allan) 1. BIODYNAMICS Flow-Forms - do they make good tea? They sure do! No surprise to BD Folks, but now you know why BD Flow Form tea can be good! But as with all compost tea machines, you need to make sure the tea being produced is fully aerobic through the entire brewing process. Below are data from a three Flow Form tea. The pool of water at the bottom of the flow forms is shown to need additional aeration. (See original newsletter at address above.) Some compost tea making machines have been shown to not maintain adequate aeration when standard compost tea recipes have been used. The amount of microbial food put into these machines must be reduced from what is recommended in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, or the tea will be anaerobic during the brewing cycle. With fewer food resources, lower numbers of organisms will be grown and 50 to 100 gallons of tea would have to be applied using these teas. If normal food levels are used, the tea may go anaerobic, and you have to apply 50 to 100 gal of tea to get adequate organism numbers, BUT there may be anaerobic metabolites that can harm plants, and human pathogens might be growing in the tea. The EarthWorks, EPM, Microb-Brewer and Compara machines typically maintain adequate aeration through the whole brewing cycle. The recipes in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual can be used (based on 50 gal original Microb-Brewer machines) for 5 gal/ac typical application rate. Flow Form data The Flow Form set-up used was a three-step unit, a compost basket under the last step, and an un-aerated pool of water. The organisms didn't start growing immediately, but within a few hours, the tea in the pool started losing oxygen. When the compost basket was removed at 12 hours, 6 ppm oxygen levels were then maintained, but much of the damage had been done. The fungi extracted early on were lost, and the anaerobic conditions on the bottom of the pool were not brought back to aerated conditions. This shows how important mixing and good aeration throughout the machine are. A ring of tubing with little air holes around the bottom of the pool would allow the pool to stay aerated. Great tea could probably be ready in 16 hours using BD Flow Forms. Activity measurements (a sum of bacteria and fungi together) in the top flow form and in the pool are shown below. Activity improved greatly when the organisms growing in the compost were removed at 12 hours. But aeration could not keep up in the pool, and active organisms were again lost in the pool. The smell from the bottom of the pool was pretty bad when the brewing was stopped at 32 hours and the tea was emptied out of the pool.
Re: How to spray compost tea?
>I know there was some discussion of size of spray nozzle and >pressure when we had Elaine Ingham on here. > >Will the regular spray nozzle that came with my 2 gallon garden >sprayer be okay for getting the little critters out without hurting >them? I mean, I know they're microscopic, but I'd like to hear from >folks who have experience. > >Bonnie Bonnie - Elaine does give measurements for the various soil critters, so you might want to check with her web page after you find out the dimensions of your sprayhead. I wouldn't worry about that too much, however. As long as you keep your presure low and your nozzle is reasonably open, I don't think you're going to have problems. If you are innoculating soil in a garden, you may want to skip the sprayer and just splash the tea out like you would 500. If you are treating foliage, of course, youll want to stay with the sprayer. I hope this is helpful. -Allan
How to spray compost tea?
I know there was some discussion of size of spray nozzle and pressure when we had Elaine Ingham on here. Will the regular spray nozzle that came with my 2 gallon garden sprayer be okay for getting the little critters out without hurting them? I mean, I know they're microscopic, but I'd like to hear from folks who have experience. Bonnie
SFW: Compost tea vs Compost
Hi Dan - Compost has more organic matter than compost tea, basically the non-soluble types of organic matter that do not dissolve in water. Thus, the benefit from compost is for a much longer time period than compost tea, or nearly any other kind of amendment. John Buckerfield in Australia showed that compost would benefit grapes for 4 to 5 years after a single application. But the cost of transportation and application can be a killer when it comes to moving compost very far. So, compost tea is a good choice in those areas where long distances or a lack of application machines are issues. Compost tea contains the soluble nutrients from compost, all the species of organisms we see in compost, but at lower numbers in the tea than in compost. Thus, the benefit from compost tea is not for as long a time period as compost. The long-term food resources in compost don't dissolve in the water, so they stay behind. The benefit from compost tea may be only for months to a year. But, the benefits are much the same from both compost and compost tea, if made correctly. Does that answer the question clearly enough? Elaine Allan Balliett wrote: > From Dan Lynch - > > Please compare and contrast the application of compost and compost > tea to the soil. > Like to understand the advantages and disadvantages of each more than > just the obvious. Of course one disadvantage of compost tea compared > to compost would appear to be the lack of organic matter. Thanks, Dan
Compost Tea Brewers
Dorothy wrote : "I would like to hear from Jose (or others) who have built their own compost tea machines and gotten good test results on the quality of the tea. I understand that the design and ability to maintain an aerboic tea makes a huge difference. Also, the tank should be desgined so there aren't a lot of corners for anaerboic bio films to build up (all from Dr. Elaine I's materials...) Trouble is that the commercial brewers of any size are pretty expensive (almost $2k) So if there are plans for the do-it-yourselfers, I would like to hear about them. Thanks" Hi Dorothy, I have build my own version exactly because I did not have that kind of money to spend. The result was so good than many people have asked me to build also another unit so I gradually entered this business here in Brazil. So far I have made more than 20 units which are spread all over the country making Compost Teas that is helping several farmers from Strickly organic to the most conventional ones. I have sold most of the units to farmers who grows ornamental and have abused chemiclas creating resitant types of fungi. I know that my unit works because all the reports that I have are favourable so far My unit brews Tea using a Vortex Nozzle that incorporates large amounts of air and thereby giving the organisms ( specially bacteria) the necessary oxygen to grow and multiply. I have also created an special blend of ingredients that goes inside the tank which feeds the microbes very efficiently. For those who want to build their own unit I am selling the Vortex Nozzle and a filter that goes in the unit. All the rest ( tank, pump, pipeline, etccc) can be bought locally. If you are interested please contact me directly in the address below: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards Jose
Re: Compost tea brewers
I would like to hear from Jose (or others) who have built their own compost tea machines and gotten good test results on the quality of the tea. I understand that the design and ability to maintain an aerboic tea makes a huge difference. Also, the tank should be desgined so there aren't a lot of corners for anaerboic bio films to build up (all from Dr. Elaine I's materials...) Trouble is that the commercial brewers of any size are pretty expensive (almost $2k) So if there are plans for the do-it-yourselfers, I would like to hear about them. Thanks. __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
Re: SFW: Compost Tea for Fertility (?)
Hey Steve,
if your earthworm castings were the size of yr. fists, what size are those
earthworm critters on yr. farm anyway? :-)
And if you're doing all that spraying all summer, when you have time to do
anything else?
Blessings on you and your farm in the New Year!
Jane
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: SFW: Compost Tea for Fertility (?)
In a message dated 1/16/02 7:47:02 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Haven't seen any discussion of the
> > fertility opportunities here yet,only disease prevention. >>
2001 seemed to be a pivotal year for my farm here on Long Island. The
earthworms are living everywhere; driveways and in the heavily cultivated
fields for vegetable production. I see nothing to attribute the kind of
fertility we are experiencing to anything but the bd remedies. I have been
appying them here for twelve years. In a block of land maybe three acres
that had Fava beans and melons, then oats for cover crop, there were
earthworm castings the size of my fists in the field late in the fall. The
tilth is amazing and continues to improve dispite the abuse of plow and
disc,
and spader, and the "G" cultivating fleet. When digging crops like carrots,
celeriac, turnips, rudabegas, or sugar beets, you see castings everywhere,
and beautiful crumb structure. I can only say that the sequential spraying
of the bd remedies over the past two years is really the key to using these
''compost teas''. After the spraying in the Fall of horn humus, I only
present the remedies in a complete set [for the elementals to work with].
This seems to be the key to get instant response from these remedies in the
form of "super" compost tea.
Here is my spray sequence:
Biodynamic Earth Care program
1. Storch’s North American humus-compost tea {bc made with 500-508} [spray
alone]
2. silica remedy (501) [spray alone]
3. Barrel Compost {Thun Recipe +} [combine 3,4,5]
4. equisetum [horse tail] tea remedy (508 )
5. compost remedy { my recipe}
6. clay remedy {my clay barrel compost} [combine 6 & 7]
7. humus remedy (500)
8. silica-horse tail remedy (501 / 508 ) [spray alone] ; repeat sequence
every two weeks during growing
season!!!!!!!!!!
!!
Put that in yer compost tea brewer...SStorch
Re: SFW: Compost Tea for Fertility (?)
In a message dated 1/16/02 7:47:02 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Haven't seen any discussion of the
> > fertility opportunities here yet,only disease prevention. >>
2001 seemed to be a pivotal year for my farm here on Long Island. The
earthworms are living everywhere; driveways and in the heavily cultivated
fields for vegetable production. I see nothing to attribute the kind of
fertility we are experiencing to anything but the bd remedies. I have been
appying them here for twelve years. In a block of land maybe three acres
that had Fava beans and melons, then oats for cover crop, there were
earthworm castings the size of my fists in the field late in the fall. The
tilth is amazing and continues to improve dispite the abuse of plow and disc,
and spader, and the "G" cultivating fleet. When digging crops like carrots,
celeriac, turnips, rudabegas, or sugar beets, you see castings everywhere,
and beautiful crumb structure. I can only say that the sequential spraying
of the bd remedies over the past two years is really the key to using these
''compost teas''. After the spraying in the Fall of horn humus, I only
present the remedies in a complete set [for the elementals to work with].
This seems to be the key to get instant response from these remedies in the
form of "super" compost tea.
Here is my spray sequence:
Biodynamic Earth Care program
1. Storch’s North American humus-compost tea {bc made with 500-508} [spray
alone]
2. silica remedy (501) [spray alone]
3. Barrel Compost {Thun Recipe +} [combine 3,4,5]
4. equisetum [horse tail] tea remedy (508 )
5. compost remedy { my recipe}
6. clay remedy {my clay barrel compost} [combine 6 & 7]
7. humus remedy (500)
8. silica-horse tail remedy (501 / 508 ) [spray alone] ; repeat sequence
every two weeks during growing
season!!
!!!!!!
Put that in yer compost tea brewer...SStorch
