Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Some very hard and dense lumber will last 70 to 100 years as fence posts. Black Locus and Red Mullbury are these kinds of wood. They can be found where pallets are made since these woods are cheap and strong. John http://WhiteCane.org http://BlindWoodWorker.com http://HolyTeaClub.comcom\whitecane http://anellos.ws - Original Message - From: Ron Yearns To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I do not think kiln dried lumber is resistant to moisture or rot. thats why they started making treated lumber cc a , c b a and the like. Ron - Original Message - From: Spiro To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I think it used to be called KD for kilm dried. On Tue, 25 May 2010, Ron Yearns wrote: > OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? > Ron > - Original Message - > From: chiliblindman > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor > > > > You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. > .bob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
If you plan on living at this location for a long while that new composite deck material is really nice. It won't rott or deteriate in any way. Helped my brother do a deck with it and it looks like wood but is made of recycled plastic. Cuts nice and works nice. _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Yearns Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:12 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I do not think kiln dried lumber is resistant to moisture or rot. thats why they started making treated lumber cc a , c b a and the like. Ron - Original Message - From: Spiro To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I think it used to be called KD for kilm dried. On Tue, 25 May 2010, Ron Yearns wrote: > OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? > Ron > - Original Message - > From: chiliblindman > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor > > > > You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. > .bob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
It's the wood of choice here in the islands, and we definitely give it the moisture test. At 03:22 PM 5/25/2010, you wrote: > > >Baked lumber is what is replacing pressure >treated and other. It is baked in large ovens >and it destroys the sugar in the lumber and sap. >Nothing will eat it because there is nothing in >it for them, and it will not rot. It can however >absorb tons of water and dry out time after time without warping. >...bob > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
I do not think kiln dried lumber is resistant to moisture or rot. thats why they started making treated lumber cc a , c b a and the like. Ron - Original Message - From: Spiro To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I think it used to be called KD for kilm dried. On Tue, 25 May 2010, Ron Yearns wrote: > OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? > Ron > - Original Message - > From: chiliblindman > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor > > > > You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. > .bob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Baked lumber is what is replacing pressure treated and other. It is baked in large ovens and it destroys the sugar in the lumber and sap. Nothing will eat it because there is nothing in it for them, and it will not rot. It can however absorb tons of water and dry out time after time without warping. ...bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Baked lumber is not to be confused with dried lumber. Both do get dried, but the sugar content remains in the dried lumber. Pressure treated lumber is ok for 20 years where baked lumber will never warp and is good for 30 to 40 years plus. ...bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
If you use the wood for a basement floor make sure to put a heavy vapor barrier under it and run it up the walls past the edges of the wood. Also if I remember correctly there are two types of treated lumber. Only one of them is meant to be placed directly on the ground or buried such as for fence posts. _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Spiro Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:16 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I think it used to be called KD for kilm dried. On Tue, 25 May 2010, Ron Yearns wrote: > OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? > Ron > - Original Message - > From: chiliblindman > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor > > > > You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. > .bob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
When reference is made to "baked lumber", I am curious if reference is actually being made to "heat modified lumber"? I thought I just read in an article, that there is still question as to whether heat modified lumber will hold up to moisture, particularly when used in contact with the ground. - Original Message - From: Spiro To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I think it used to be called KD for kilm dried. On Tue, 25 May 2010, Ron Yearns wrote: > OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? > Ron > - Original Message - > From: chiliblindman > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor > > > > You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. > .bob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
For the next wishing well planter that I make I plan to use baked lumber. Baked lumber is heated to I think about 400 degrees. This destroys all of the sugar in the wood making it insect proof and rot resistant Here is some more information from Baley wood products the saw mill from which I purchase all of my wood. http://www.baileywp.com/html/thermo.html What is Thermo-Treated Wood? Thermo-Treatment is the process of gradually heating any species of lumber to temperatures of 410 - 450º F in a special chamber that has had the oxygen completely removed from the system. These conditions are needed to prevent the wood from combusting, which takes place at temperatures over 300º F. Why Use Thermo-Treated Wood? a.. Durability: 25 year life span can be expected for exterior applications b.. Moisture Repulsion: The process seals the cellular structure of the wood making it impervious to water and moisture c.. Stabilizaton: Swelling and shrinkage is reduced as well as cracking and checking d.. Color: Consistent brown color all the way through to the very center of the board e.. Chemical Free: Chemicals are not used in the Thermo-Treatment process which makes this product an environmentally friendly alternative. Milling: Sawing: Sawing does not differ much from sawing untreated wood. Because of the stabilization from the heat treatment, distortion of the wood is greatly reduced after sawing. Since the Thermo-Treatment eliminates the resins in the wood, machines require little cleaning after milling. Planing: Machines well using all normal methods. Sharp Cutters provide the best results, as with all woods. Milling: Blades must be sharp, otherwise tearout may occur. Milling across the grain may increase tear out. Tearout is most likely to take place at the end of a board where there is a thick piece of wood behind the blade. Careful planning should be taken into consideration. Sanding: Material sands generally the same as untreated wood. Due to the absence of resins in the wood that has been crystalized in the process, the sand paper does not load up like it does with untreated woods. Surface treatment: Use surface treatment that will protect against Ultra Violet radiation in order to prevent color changes and surface shakes. Take into account that Thermo-Treated wood has lower water absorption than normal wood and needs a longer time to penetrate the wood. Oil-based substances work just as well as they would with normal wood. Gluing: Longer Processing time is needed for the glue to be absorbed by the Thermo-treated wood, especially when using water based glues. Because the Thermo-Treated wood has a low moisture absorption, penetration and drying time of the glue is increased. Screwing: Heat treatment reduces the splitting strength of the wood. The use of self-tapping or predrilling hardware is recommended. Also, the use of stainless steel screws with less threads and countersunk heads is recommended for external use and in humid environments. We recommend not using galvanized fasteners as they tend to leave bleed marks on the woods surface over time. Nailing: It is recommended to use a compressed air gun with depth control since hammer contact with the wood promotes splitting. To reduce the risk of discoloration from metal nails, the use of stainless steel nails is recommended. Small oval head nails help to reduce the risk of splitting as well. For more information on thermo-treated woods, please visit this website. Home - Original Message - From: "Ron Yearns" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? Ron - Original Message - From: chiliblindman To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. .bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit the archives page at the following address http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list just send a blank message to: blindhandyman-h...@yahoogroups.comyahoo! Groups Links __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of vir
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
I think it used to be called KD for kilm dried. On Tue, 25 May 2010, Ron Yearns wrote: > OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? > Ron > - Original Message - > From: chiliblindman > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor > > > > You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes > and not rot or expand and shrink. > .bob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
OK I'm biting . White is bakeed lumber? Ron - Original Message - From: chiliblindman To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. .bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
You might consider the newer baked lumber. It will take moisture extremes and not rot or expand and shrink. .bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
I have never heard of stable mats. I'll have to look into that. Thank you. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Sherrer Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:14 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Hi Tom Tractor Supply is selling stable mats right now, or at least I had seen them a little while ago. They are large mats designed to go on dirt floors. Another option is hard wood that will not rot. You may have to get this kind of wood from a saw mill, since this kind of wood is too hard for general use. Black Locus or Red Mullberry are good choices. Ibe and Purple Heart are good choices if you can get them in a decking grade. A lumber seller in my area has Ibe at $2.00 a board foot in decking grade. it is a brown wood from South America. John http://WhiteCane.org http://BlindWoodWorker.com http://HolyTeaClub.comcom\whitecane http://anellos.ws - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Hi Tom Tractor Supply is selling stable mats right now, or at least I had seen them a little while ago. They are large mats designed to go on dirt floors. Another option is hard wood that will not rot. You may have to get this kind of wood from a saw mill, since this kind of wood is too hard for general use. Black Locus or Red Mullberry are good choices. Ibe and Purple Heart are good choices if you can get them in a decking grade. A lumber seller in my area has Ibe at $2.00 a board foot in decking grade. it is a brown wood from South America. John http://WhiteCane.org http://BlindWoodWorker.com http://HolyTeaClub.comcom\whitecane http://anellos.ws - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
It will be a little tight, but if it's just storage, we don't need much more than head room. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jennifer Jackson Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:51 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Is the ceiling high enough to do some kind of raised floor? As I am about to spend a lot of money to have my slab jack hammered out so I can have plumbing repaired again. I am opposed to concrete floors over plumbing and other duct work. Jennifer - Original Message - From: Jewel To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor perhaps offer a fun-filled holiday to the Rossis. Jewel - Original Message - From: "Tom Vos" mailto:vos17%40iowatelecom.net> > To: mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:43 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman-owner%40yahoogroups.com> To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster <http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_ page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29> &PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit the archives page at the following address http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list just send a blank message to: blindhandyman-h...@yahoogroups.comyahoo <mailto:blindhandyman-help%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5125 (20100518) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
My point about code was only that if a window was to be added it would have to conform to code. This may include a window suitable for egress depending on location and probably other things. There may be several advantages to adding a window including a convenient way to install a really good basement floor. - Original Message - From: Ron Yearns To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I wouldn't be worrying about codes qat this point If there ain't one there now it is a grandfather thing. I don't think we caught how much headroom we are working with. Go for what suits you. Ron - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:28 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I'm tossing back and forth the ideas of wood or paving stones. I'm not too worried about being up a step from the rest of the floor. And since it's storage space, I doubt code would require a window. Thanks. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor A couple of suggestions depending on exact circumstances. Is there an existing concrete floor in the rest of the basement you wish to level up to? What is it's elevation. You probably prefer to have it similar height. That might mean some excavation or some fill. Now poured concrete nicely bedded on crushed rock and sand would probably be ideal but without a window to access the area that would be a filthy job. Maybe there is reason to insert a window for light, egress and of course to allow access to the space for the installation of a floor. Now as for elevation, I would suggest about three inches of sand base leveled to the thickness of 18 inch or 24 inch pre-cast patio slabs thickness below the present floor grade. Actually another quarter inch so that the slabs can be tamped flat and secure. You would probably not go too wrong to lay a film of poly on the earth before the sand. It might be necessary to excavate some dirt first. Of course now you have hauled dirt, sand and patio slabs through the house so, why not cement? A pressure treated floor too will last longer than you are likely to need it. You could get away with quite narrow joists if you sunk something like 6 by 6 treated timbers, one at each edge and a third down the middle. getting them truly level before adding the joists would take some patience, again my trick is to excavate a little deep then fill with crushed rock the bottom of the trench and tamp the timbers down until level then pack around them with more stone to keep them stable and drier. Now 2 by 8 or even 2 by 6 joists on 16 inch centers would make a firm support remembering that the span will be less than 6 feet. If the footing timbers are above the grade a little you could even go to engineered joists for further rigidity as they will be out of the mud then apply decking as per usual. I understand that these days they glue the decking down onto the engineered joists to produce a "monolithic" structure. If the basement walls are cement block you might consider adding a window. Modern code may require though that this be suitable for egress in case of fire and that may be a larger window and well and more than you wanted. Hope these are helpful ideas. Dale leavens If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
I wouldn't be worrying about codes qat this point If there ain't one there now it is a grandfather thing. I don't think we caught how much headroom we are working with. Go for what suits you. Ron - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:28 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor I'm tossing back and forth the ideas of wood or paving stones. I'm not too worried about being up a step from the rest of the floor. And since it's storage space, I doubt code would require a window. Thanks. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor A couple of suggestions depending on exact circumstances. Is there an existing concrete floor in the rest of the basement you wish to level up to? What is it's elevation. You probably prefer to have it similar height. That might mean some excavation or some fill. Now poured concrete nicely bedded on crushed rock and sand would probably be ideal but without a window to access the area that would be a filthy job. Maybe there is reason to insert a window for light, egress and of course to allow access to the space for the installation of a floor. Now as for elevation, I would suggest about three inches of sand base leveled to the thickness of 18 inch or 24 inch pre-cast patio slabs thickness below the present floor grade. Actually another quarter inch so that the slabs can be tamped flat and secure. You would probably not go too wrong to lay a film of poly on the earth before the sand. It might be necessary to excavate some dirt first. Of course now you have hauled dirt, sand and patio slabs through the house so, why not cement? A pressure treated floor too will last longer than you are likely to need it. You could get away with quite narrow joists if you sunk something like 6 by 6 treated timbers, one at each edge and a third down the middle. getting them truly level before adding the joists would take some patience, again my trick is to excavate a little deep then fill with crushed rock the bottom of the trench and tamp the timbers down until level then pack around them with more stone to keep them stable and drier. Now 2 by 8 or even 2 by 6 joists on 16 inch centers would make a firm support remembering that the span will be less than 6 feet. If the footing timbers are above the grade a little you could even go to engineered joists for further rigidity as they will be out of the mud then apply decking as per usual. I understand that these days they glue the decking down onto the engineered joists to produce a "monolithic" structure. If the basement walls are cement block you might consider adding a window. Modern code may require though that this be suitable for egress in case of fire and that may be a larger window and well and more than you wanted. Hope these are helpful ideas. Dale leavens If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
I'm tossing back and forth the ideas of wood or paving stones. I'm not too worried about being up a step from the rest of the floor. And since it's storage space, I doubt code would require a window. Thanks. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor A couple of suggestions depending on exact circumstances. Is there an existing concrete floor in the rest of the basement you wish to level up to? What is it's elevation. You probably prefer to have it similar height. That might mean some excavation or some fill. Now poured concrete nicely bedded on crushed rock and sand would probably be ideal but without a window to access the area that would be a filthy job. Maybe there is reason to insert a window for light, egress and of course to allow access to the space for the installation of a floor. Now as for elevation, I would suggest about three inches of sand base leveled to the thickness of 18 inch or 24 inch pre-cast patio slabs thickness below the present floor grade. Actually another quarter inch so that the slabs can be tamped flat and secure. You would probably not go too wrong to lay a film of poly on the earth before the sand. It might be necessary to excavate some dirt first. Of course now you have hauled dirt, sand and patio slabs through the house so, why not cement? A pressure treated floor too will last longer than you are likely to need it. You could get away with quite narrow joists if you sunk something like 6 by 6 treated timbers, one at each edge and a third down the middle. getting them truly level before adding the joists would take some patience, again my trick is to excavate a little deep then fill with crushed rock the bottom of the trench and tamp the timbers down until level then pack around them with more stone to keep them stable and drier. Now 2 by 8 or even 2 by 6 joists on 16 inch centers would make a firm support remembering that the span will be less than 6 feet. If the footing timbers are above the grade a little you could even go to engineered joists for further rigidity as they will be out of the mud then apply decking as per usual. I understand that these days they glue the decking down onto the engineered joists to produce a "monolithic" structure. If the basement walls are cement block you might consider adding a window. Modern code may require though that this be suitable for egress in case of fire and that may be a larger window and well and more than you wanted. Hope these are helpful ideas. Dale leavens If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
That thought had occurred to me. I'll have to check out the cost, but I like the idea of not sealing off the floor and allowing drainage. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Gouveia Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:51 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Hi Tom, Since you're only going to be using the area for storage, have you considered paving stones? Granted, you'll have a bit of a workout lugging the various bags of fine sand down there, and carrying the paving stones down there, but the advantage is that there would be plenty of drainage through the stones themselves, and, if you wanted to, you can cover it up later on with three quarter inch plywood, and/or lumber, and place other flooring down there, such as parquet flooring, laminate tiling, or any other type of tiling. You would have to use a tamper machine to tamp down the sand, and to wedge the fine sand in between the paving stones, but again, it would be easier to do than concrete, and the best part is, if you've got pretty good depth perception, it's completely doable by a blind man. Just thinking out loud. Smile. Victor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Thanks, that sounds thorough From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:36 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Well, here is my $0.02 on the topic. Figure out what you want the finished height of the floor to be and excavate as needed. Lot of work. 5 gallon buckets of dirt out of a basement is not fun, I know from experience. 6 mil plastic on the dirt, and up the edges a few inches, using caulk to seal, and hold the plastic up on the wall. 2x6 treated boards fastened to the sides of the concrete as ledger boards. I would use construction adhesive, and tapcons. 2x6 joists to span across and installed with joist hangers. top with 3/4 T&G exterior grade plywood. Won't need footings, but this assumes that there is concrete on all four sides of your hole. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
I suppose we could ask, unless they charge for answering questions. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fowle Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:30 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor It is possible to have concrete put in through a hose from a truck, but probably very expensive and would have to be done by a contractor. Probably prohibitively costly, the high end method. tom Fowle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Well, here is my $0.02 on the topic. Figure out what you want the finished height of the floor to be and excavate as needed. Lot of work. 5 gallon buckets of dirt out of a basement is not fun, I know from experience. 6 mil plastic on the dirt, and up the edges a few inches, using caulk to seal, and hold the plastic up on the wall. 2x6 treated boards fastened to the sides of the concrete as ledger boards. I would use construction adhesive, and tapcons. 2x6 joists to span across and installed with joist hangers. top with 3/4 T&G exterior grade plywood. Won't need footings, but this assumes that there is concrete on all four sides of your hole. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
A couple of suggestions depending on exact circumstances. Is there an existing concrete floor in the rest of the basement you wish to level up to? What is it's elevation. You probably prefer to have it similar height. That might mean some excavation or some fill. Now poured concrete nicely bedded on crushed rock and sand would probably be ideal but without a window to access the area that would be a filthy job. Maybe there is reason to insert a window for light, egress and of course to allow access to the space for the installation of a floor. Now as for elevation, I would suggest about three inches of sand base leveled to the thickness of 18 inch or 24 inch pre-cast patio slabs thickness below the present floor grade. Actually another quarter inch so that the slabs can be tamped flat and secure. You would probably not go too wrong to lay a film of poly on the earth before the sand. It might be necessary to excavate some dirt first. Of course now you have hauled dirt, sand and patio slabs through the house so, why not cement? A pressure treated floor too will last longer than you are likely to need it. You could get away with quite narrow joists if you sunk something like 6 by 6 treated timbers, one at each edge and a third down the middle. getting them truly level before adding the joists would take some patience, again my trick is to excavate a little deep then fill with crushed rock the bottom of the trench and tamp the timbers down until level then pack around them with more stone to keep them stable and drier. Now 2 by 8 or even 2 by 6 joists on 16 inch centers would make a firm support remembering that the span will be less than 6 feet. If the footing timbers are above the grade a little you could even go to engineered joists for further rigidity as they will be out of the mud then apply decking as per usual. I understand that these days they glue the decking down onto the engineered joists to produce a "monolithic" structure. If the basement walls are cement block you might consider adding a window. Modern code may require though that this be suitable for egress in case of fire and that may be a larger window and well and more than you wanted. Hope these are helpful ideas. Dale leavens If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Is the ceiling high enough to do some kind of raised floor? As I am about to spend a lot of money to have my slab jack hammered out so I can have plumbing repaired again. I am opposed to concrete floors over plumbing and other duct work. Jennifer - Original Message - From: Jewel To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor perhaps offer a fun-filled holiday to the Rossis. Jewel - Original Message - From: "Tom Vos" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:43 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit the archives page at the following address http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list just send a blank message to: blindhandyman-h...@yahoogroups.comyahoo! Groups Links __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5125 (20100518) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Hi Tom, Since you're only going to be using the area for storage, have you considered paving stones? Granted, you'll have a bit of a workout lugging the various bags of fine sand down there, and carrying the paving stones down there, but the advantage is that there would be plenty of drainage through the stones themselves, and, if you wanted to, you can cover it up later on with three quarter inch plywood, and/or lumber, and place other flooring down there, such as parquet flooring, laminate tiling, or any other type of tiling. You would have to use a tamper machine to tamp down the sand, and to wedge the fine sand in between the paving stones, but again, it would be easier to do than concrete, and the best part is, if you've got pretty good depth perception, it's completely doable by a blind man. Just thinking out loud. Smile. Victor
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Our trucks charge $300 for the hose delivery system. Betsy At 04:29 PM 5/18/2010, you wrote: > > >It is possible to have concrete put in through a hose from a truck, but >probably very expensive and would have to be done by a contractor. >Probably prohibitively costly, the high end method. > >tom Fowle > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
It is possible to have concrete put in through a hose from a truck, but probably very expensive and would have to be done by a contractor. Probably prohibitively costly, the high end method. tom Fowle
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
OK, I'll admit it. I'm a wimp. Good idea, though s to put in footers. I'll have to do some measuring on the head room. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:58 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Tom, Come on, 12 feet squared by 4 inches thick would only be 96 80 pound bags of cement. Child's play. How about if you pour a few footers, then just build a deck on top of the footers. How much head room do you have? The footers don't need to be more than an inch or two above the dirt. but the joists would add depth. At 12 by 12, I think you could get away with four footers pretty easily. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu <mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu> Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Maybe I could do a Tom Sawyer thing, and convince the neighbors that carryhing heavy buckets of concrete to the basement is fun! From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:25 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor perhaps offer a fun-filled holiday to the Rossis. Jewel - Original Message - From: "Tom Vos" mailto:vos17%40iowatelecom.net> > To: mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:43 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman-owner%40yahoogroups.com> To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster <http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_ page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29> &PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit the archives page at the following address http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list just send a blank message to: blindhandyman-h...@yahoogroups.comyahoo <mailto:blindhandyman-help%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5125 (20100518) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Rick, Thanks for the question I should have answered to begin with. This space will only be used for storage, so we don't need something fancy. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Hume Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:16 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Howdy Tom, Now I have to admit that after reading your note, that I scratched my head and deleted your request for assistance. Then I realized that you had really gave the group a challenge. I've been thinking about the problem and believe the first thing we need to know, is how you're planning to use the area. If you're considering it as a living area, you would want a better quality floor and a better barrier from the soil. If you're not going to use it as a living area, I can imagine some possible alternative floors. - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Thank you, Ron. There is some dampness, but not water. Part of the basement has a concrete floor, and it is dry. From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Yearns Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:34 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Does this dirt floor stay dry? Is it possible to get twelve foot two bys into this space down the steps? If it is dry and you can get the lumber down there without cutting it nto four foot pieces wood could be a viable choice. Two things I would lay dowm plastic on the dirt to trap moisture below the surface. I would also use below grade treated lumber. Lowes or Home Depot does not stock it but can order it special. I would use below grade for the two bys and regular treated for the plywood. If this place ever gets wet you best dig a sump hole for a pump before you do the other work. Hopefully you have headroom for this project. Ron - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Does this dirt floor stay dry? Is it possible to get twelve foot two bys into this space down the steps? If it is dry and you can get the lumber down there without cutting it nto four foot pieces wood could be a viable choice. Two things I would lay dowm plastic on the dirt to trap moisture below the surface. I would also use below grade treated lumber. Lowes or Home Depot does not stock it but can order it special. I would use below grade for the two bys and regular treated for the plywood. If this place ever gets wet you best dig a sump hole for a pump before you do the other work. Hopefully you have headroom for this project. Ron - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Tom, Come on, 12 feet squared by 4 inches thick would only be 96 80 pound bags of cement. Child's play. How about if you pour a few footers, then just build a deck on top of the footers. How much head room do you have? The footers don't need to be more than an inch or two above the dirt. but the joists would add depth. At 12 by 12, I think you could get away with four footers pretty easily. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel:(412) 268-9081
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Does the area stay dry? You can always put in a wooden floor, I'd use treated lumber for the frame work, and a layer of half inch plywood. Then you can put any surface on top of the ply you want. - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
perhaps offer a fun-filled holiday to the Rossis. Jewel - Original Message - From: "Tom Vos" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:43 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit the archives page at the following address http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list just send a blank message to: blindhandyman-h...@yahoogroups.comyahoo! Groups Links __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5125 (20100518) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Howdy Tom, Now I have to admit that after reading your note, that I scratched my head and deleted your request for assistance. Then I realized that you had really gave the group a challenge. I've been thinking about the problem and believe the first thing we need to know, is how you're planning to use the area. If you're considering it as a living area, you would want a better quality floor and a better barrier from the soil. If you're not going to use it as a living area, I can imagine some possible alternative floors. - Original Message - From: Tom Vos To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:43 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[BlindHandyMan] Putting in a basement floor
Are there any alternatives for a basement floor other than concrete? We have a room in the basement with a dirt floor. It's not very usable that way, but to get concrete down there will be tough. There are no windows, so concrete would have to be hauled through the entry and kitchen and down the stairs. Or we could carry bags of Redi Mix, but it's going to take a whale of a lot of bags to do the room. It's only about 12 feet square, but that's a lot of lugging. Any ideas? Blessings, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
