working 12 hours a day is evil, why it must be eradicated
Erik Reuter wrote: If they spent 6 hours per day working and it took two years, then yes, it is likely it could be done in one year if they spent 12 hours. This is not how creativity works. You actually spend 24 hours a day working, except those hours that you spend doing other things. Put those guys 12 hours a day in a noise office with phones ringing and lots of meeting, and they it will take five years for them to do the job Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
At 10:48 PM 11/25/02 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: if you're south of the Mason-Dixon line, the War Between the States Wrong. It's called The War of Northern Aggression. ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
At 01:22 AM 11/27/02 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:19:18AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: No, actually. Ah, then you have the data where you recorded all the solutions you have come up with over a long period of time, and how many were while working, and how many were while goofing? I'd like to see that data. Its a technique. I deliberately know that I have to stop working when a problem needs a creative solution. I remember roaming the halls at Teleco looking at this and that. A VP caught me wandering, gave a look at my distracted expression, and said thinking, huh? Yup was my answer, and we both passed each other with smiles. How is that not working? It _is_ working. The problem would have arisen if the VP did not recognize that it was working. Unfortunately, many bosses would _not_ recognize it as working, because Dan was not at his desk actually typing something into his computer, which is the _boss's_ idea of what a programmer is supposed to be doing from 0800 to 1700. Or even if Dan's immediate boss _did_ recognize wandering the halls to think as working, Dan's boss's boss might call Dan's boss into his office and ask him why one of his people was out wandering the halls goofing off rather than working -- i.e., sitting at his desk typing on his keyboard -- thereby earning both Dan and his boss a ding in the eyes of the big boss. And guess where the big boss will look first when _his_ boss tells him that the company has not met projections this quarter and he has to lay off 5% or 10% of the people under him . . . GSV Those Who Can, Do: Those Who Can't Do, End Up In Management ROU Been There, Done That VFP Like The Time I Was In A Ten-Man Department And The Company Decided To Have A Ten-Per-Cent Across-The-Board RIF (Why is it called a Reduction In Force rather than a Reduction In Personnel?) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: working 12 hours a day is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:48:52AM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: This is not how creativity works. You actually spend 24 hours a day working, except those hours that you spend doing other things. Put those guys 12 hours a day in a noise office with phones ringing and lots of meeting, and they it will take five years for them to do the job If they didn't WANT to work longer hours, then I agree, you can't force someone to be creative if they don't want to be. But that is not what I was claiming. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
In a message dated 11/27/2002 5:18:35 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Why is it called a Reduction In Force rather than a Reduction In Personnel?) RIP could mean you only get yogurt for lunch. RIP is for headstones. William Taylor -- IHNIWAOTM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
Ronn said: It's called The War of Northern Aggression. Didn't the US Civil War start with the Confederacy firing on Fort Sumter? And wouldn't that make it The War of Southern Aggression? Rich GCU Hazy Knowledge ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is evil (proof)
on 27/11/02 3:53 am, Marvin Long, Jr. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If religion is a lie, what is evil? Evil is whatever I'm pointing at when I say 'that is evil' :) -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
on 27/11/02 5:06 am, John D. Giorgis at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, William T Goodall wrote: [a] Lies are evil [1] If you were living in Belgium circa 1943, and had a Jewish family in your basement, and two guys in tacky uniforms ask you Wo sind die Juden? and you say Ich weiss nicht, your lie was *not* evil. Or it could be the lesser of two evils. QED lies are not evil. I don't think so... -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: moderation is evil, why it must be eradicated
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 3:41 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: moderation is evil, why it must be eradicated You're right. I am not right! Aha -- so you admit to being wrong! Now *that* is what I call making progress. :-) (Attention censors: notice the smiley, which indicates humour). I've always thought of you more as a crate kind of guy. Can I be a titanium box? No. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: moderation is evil, why it must be eradicated
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 5:57 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: moderation is evil, why it must be eradicated but unfortuantely you were convicted of a crime and put in prison. Please refrain from making such comments; your statement could seriously damage Sonja's career. If it is found that her career is indeed damaged (for example, she does not get the high-pay job she applied for because the employer found your message and believes your statement to be true), you might end up facing some very serious legal trouble. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 6:10 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated As opposed to anyone under 40 who's paying into Social Security. Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for saddling America's future generations with this disaster. Why is it a disaster if a government decides to financially help those members of the population who (for some reason) are unable to generate income themselves? Over here, we do not call it a disaster -- we call it solidarity. Jeroen -- former recipient of Social Security ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 6:06 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof) [a] Lies are evil [1] If you were living in Belgium circa 1943, and had a Jewish family in your basement, and two guys in tacky uniforms ask you Wo sind die Juden? and you say Ich weiss nicht, your lie was *not* evil. QED lies are not evil. If you saw your neighbour murdering his wife, and then have the police ask you if you know what happened to her, and you say I have no idea, then your lie *is* evil. QED lies are evil. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Robert Seeberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 6:23 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for saddling America's future generations with this disaster. Ahh..and what was the situation before the advent of social security? Educated guess: poverty, alcohol abuse, violence (domestic and otherwise) due to alcohol abuse, suicides. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion, the good side
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Ronn!Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 13:17 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Religion, the good side GSV Those Who Can, Do: Those Who Can't Do, End Up In Management ROTFL! There is truth in many things -- and this is definitely one of them. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion, the good side
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 2:21 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Religion, the good side So, management wanted them to work properly. Productivity went way down. Now *that* sounds familiar. It is happening right now here at work; we are facing more and more restrictions on what we can and cannot do, and decisions on how we should do our jobs, thus making it increasingly more difficult for us to actually do our jobs. Time and time again I get the idea that the higher-ups who come up with those ideas have no idea what it is like on the workfloor. (And I have seen this happen in other organisations as well.) As a side effect, it does not exactly inspire faith in the higher-ups; those ideas are spreading the message that they do not really trust the people who work for them. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion, the good side
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 6:36 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Religion, the good side Good lord, an innovative technique, including coming up with a radically new design, building and testing hardware, all within a year? If they spent 6 hours per day working and it took two years, then yes, it is likely it could be done in one year if they spent 12 hours. Following that reasoning, the job could be done in only six months by working 24 hours per day. Unfortunately, it is more complicated than that. Things like the need for rest, recreation and social activities tend to get in the way. Quality has often been sacrificed to meet an unrealistic deadline. Quality has often been sacrificied even after repeatedly extending the deadline. I submit the various versions of Micro$oft Windows as evidence... :-) Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 05:42:55AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: Seems to me that you've just shot down your proposition, since those words limit it to selected cases. No, it means my proposition is valid. The longer people can work without getting tired, the more they will get done. I've rarely met people who can't work more than 6 hours without getting tired. Now we can agree, although I'd say it thus: for some people, dealing with some kinds of work, more hours yields more output. Generally speaking, I'll add, those are the less creative kinds of work. No, we don't agree. Creative work can have people with more endurance than, for example, non-physical drudge work or physical labor. Many more people find the creative work enjoyable and so can work at it longer without tiring. That is one reason why you see more people voluntarily working overtime for creative jobs and not for jobs like secretary or construction worker. I think the real trick is to stimulate as much of your mind as possible in as many ways related to the problem as possible. There's the rub -- you never know what might be related. But you can make some really good guesses, good enough to greatly increase your efficiency. Pick up any book on creativity and you'll find that creative people are interested in everything. (We're into an area of my expertise here; IIRC, that very sentence appears on my web site.) Metaphor is powerful, so is letting a problem linger in the back of one's head. Big problems are rarely solved by tackling them head-on; many are serendipitous. That is mostly sensationalism and wishful thinking. It doesn't make a good story to say that you were working on the problem for hours and you solved it. It makes a great story to say you were in the bathtub and suddenly had to jump out and run naked to your desk to write down the idea that just occurred to you. Selective memory and drama. Serendipity is not something you can force to happen, but it's not random, either. The first part is a tautology or a useless definition, so I'll ignore it, and the second part conflicts with the first. Head in an interesting direction and you're likely to find things you weren't even looking for. Head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on, and you are likely to find useful things that will help you get your work done. You can't absolutely force ideas, but you can make them more likely. Not every task should be approached this way; sometimes focus and follow-through are far more important than creativity. Learning how to switch deliberately from one mode to the other is an extremely valuable skill. Which contradicts your statement about not being able to influence ideas to happen. (I use influence instead of force since I assume that is what you meant; neither of us would argue that you can absolutely force an idea to come at a given time) -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil
William T Goodall wrote: Or it could be the lesser of two evils. When there are only two choices, then the lesser of the two evils is _not_ evil. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: New thread Re: Religion is evil (proof)
on 27/11/02 2:39 am, Julia Thompson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William T Goodall wrote: [2] If you want to argue that religion is not a lie start a thread. A lot of religion has myth. Myth is stories that, while not literally true, may contain truths. The best ones contain truths about human nature. Some warn against particular human tendencies, others celebrate certain human tendencies. So I'd argue that at least one part of religion is lies containing truths. So the rest of it is lies containing just lies? -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion, the good side
At 02:07 PM 11/27/02 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Ronn!Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 13:17 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Religion, the good side GSV Those Who Can, Do: Those Who Can't Do, End Up In Management ROTFL! There is truth in many things -- and this is definitely one of them. It's based on my observations from jobs I've held in the computer field. Like the day when, after about two years working for that company, I arrived at the office one morning to discover that the combination to the lock on the computer room had been changed and that my login would no longer work. So I called someone to find out what was going on, and that person told me to ask my supervisor, who told me (by then, this was maybe 9:30 in the morning), See me after lunch. He finally broke down a little later and told me, Today is your last day. Though no one ever came out and said so, I could only guess that they thought I knew enough about the system to do something nasty if they had given me any warning, as no one else who had been let go previously had been treated that way. I decided to take it as a compliment to my programming skills rather than a suggestion that I might actually consider sabotage . . . To make it even funnier, within a week I got a call from them asking me if I would come back as a temporary contractor and finish the project I was working on when they abruptly canned me: I suppose no one else there could figure it out. (Yes, I did. And I never considered doing any funny stuff . . .) (I keep wondering if I should send the account of my experience to Scott Adams, but I don't know how he could fit it into a single strip, much less whether anyone would believe it if it came out as a comic: truth can definitely be stranger than fiction . . . ) A few years later, I was asked to teach a class on the basics of operating system design at one of those technical colleges. One day, one of my students asked me why I preferred _teaching_ programmers to actually working as a programmer . . . If You've Read This Far The Answer Should Be Obvious Maru --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
income tax is evil, why it must be eradicated
So far, the only thing the new commie gov.br has done was increasing the t*xes. But a friend of mine told me that they have remodelled the great satan's website to explain for _children_ what they do. I imagine the next step will be giving bonus to kids who denounce their parents :-/ Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
on 27/11/02 1:48 pm, Richard Baker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeroen said: QED lies are evil. Not at all. The statement lies are evil might more accurately be stated all lies are evil. John G gave a counterexample, Which was flawed. so the statement all lies are evil is not true. You've only given a counterexample to the statement no lies are evil. We're left, therefore, with some but not all lies are evil. No, all lies are still evil. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 14:51 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated Why is it a disaster if a government decides to financially help those members of the population who (for some reason) are unable to generate income themselves? Governments do not generate income. Actually, they do. It is called taxes. (My apology for using a dirty word.) They can't pull money for entitlements out of thin air. Correct -- that is why we pay taxes. I think the disaster point is when it'll take three workers to pay for one retired person. That is not so much a disaster but a case of real lousy long-term planning. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:00 AM Subject: Re: Religion, the good side That is mostly sensationalism and wishful thinking. It doesn't make a good story to say that you were working on the problem for hours and you solved it. It makes a great story to say you were in the bathtub and suddenly had to jump out and run naked to your desk to write down the idea that just occurred to you. Selective memory and drama. What data source do you have that contradicts the data provided by people who have actually been highly creative? Yes, my data are limited. My personal experience is just one person. But, I know what has worked successfully over the years. I've been able to solve in 15 minutes what plodders haven't been able to do working 12 hour days for many days. I look around and note the working habits of others who have significant creative breakthroughs. I look at the habits of those who don't. Why should one assume that the people who are creative would be even more creative if they work like those who aren't? Part of the problem with trying to be a creative plodder is that creativity is an edge experience. For me, at least, its foundation is coming up with a new way to ask the question. Long hard work tends to get me in a groove/rut of looking at it the same way. The proof is in the pudding. Let me give one final example. After months of effort, a theorist came up with a solution to a special case of a general problem. He discussed it with Feynman. Feynman proved to be interested and asked him questions. The guy was thrilled that Feynman took an interest in his work. The next day, Feynman had the general solution. Edison copied a lot more than did. Fundamentally, he was wrong, but told a darned good story. Further, the chances of accomplishing great new technologies through simple trial and error have tremendously diminished over the past century. Most breakthroughs are made by those with a God given spark, not by the hardest workers. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is evil (proof)
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, William T Goodall wrote: on 27/11/02 3:53 am, Marvin Long, Jr. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If religion is a lie, what is evil? Evil is whatever I'm pointing at when I say 'that is evil' :) Excellent! Glad we've cleared that up. vbg Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil
on 27/11/02 2:04 pm, Alberto Monteiro at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William T Goodall wrote: Or it could be the lesser of two evils. When there are only two choices, then the lesser of the two evils is _not_ evil. Unless it is. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Hello again
From: Marvin Long, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] I'm tiptoeing back, thinking to myself, No more L3s. No more L3s. No more L3s) With all the discussions about logic and religion, I think this is going to be *very* hard for you to do! grin - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: K. Feete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Yes, but, as Searle and Merleau-Ponty are both so fond of Merleau-Ponty? Isn't that that English comedy team that did all those TV shows and movies??? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is evil (proof)
In a message dated 11/26/2002 8:53:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If religion is a lie, what is evil? William Taylor responded: Evil is any system of philosophy written by George Lucas. ;-) William Taylor - Merely throwing two different threads into a blender. Or L. Ron Hubbard Reggie Bautista Merely adding in a third thread... _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Posted message.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Post. -er. Poster. Reggie The Electric Company Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
Dan wrote: The creative muse is not badgered. You don't simply think day and night. You look at the problem, know that it is solveable, but not now, and go away. As one of the guys told me when he was fussed at for surfing the net at work, how else can I solve a problem...if I just stare at it, I'll never figure it out. [much snipped] This sounds a lot like the creative process as applied to music, as well. The really good stuff, the truly insightful insights, come from the subconscious mind, not the conscious. Sometimes, much of the time even, you have to get your conscious mind out of the way in order to solve a problem or create something truly new. Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
William T Goodall wrote: Or it could be the lesser of two evils. Strange syncronicity: Within the past day, Julia posted a link to a site that sells t-shirts, sweatshirts, stickers, etc. I was looking at that site just before reading your email, and the last shirt I looked at said Cthulu for President: why settle for a lesser evil? :-) Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
Erik wrote: Creative work can have people with more endurance than, for example, non-physical drudge work or physical labor. Many more people find the creative work enjoyable and so can work at it longer without tiring. That is one reason why you see more people voluntarily working overtime for creative jobs and not for jobs like secretary or construction worker. Having worked warehousing and manufacturing jobs, secretarial jobs, and creative jobs, I can confidently tell you that 6 hours of creative work is *much* more taxing that 10 or 12 hours of picking up heavy things and putting them down again (our unofficial job description for a warehousing job I had at Proctor and Gamble), or any of the secretarial work I did. YMMV, of course. However, I had some great creative moments, conceived of some great music, while doing that warehousing job, mostly because I wasn't consciously thinking about music at the time. (I was working at PG as a summer job during college, and during that same summer I did a sound design with original music for a community theater production of _The Bad Seed_.) Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
William T Goodall wrote: No, all lies are still evil. Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by definition, not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?). So is fiction evil? Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradi...
Return-Path: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:54:57 EST Subject: Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradi... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 11/26/2002 12:39:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On the other hand, the right of Congress to declare war has been eviscerated, the limitations on the powers of Congress in article II have been eviscerated, the 9th and 10th amendments are virtually meaningless, the US government now has trillions of dollars of debt, the US government is the country's single largest operator of a pyramid-Ponzi scheme, and a group of unelected justices overturned the electorates desire to protect unborn human life. Let me get this straight. You think that a majority of the americans favor outlawing abortion? You think that issues such as this should be decided by a majority? When you speak of justices are you referring to the court that went against all of its philosophical beliefs to intervene in a state courts ruling about a state law? But of course it is likely that you will get what you want. The current court seems to have no problem with ignoring or rewriting the constitution to suit its conservative agenda. In many respects, it could be argued that we could have done much better than the US Constitution. Return-Path: Received: from rly-xg04.mx.aol.com (rly-xg04.mail.aol.com [172.20.115.201]) by air-xg04.mail.aol.com (v90.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXG44-1126003930; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:39:30 1900 Received: from www.mccmedia.com ([206.204.15.162]) by rly-xg04.mx.aol.com (v90.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXG42-1126003915; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:39:15 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAQ5e5V03234; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:40:05 -0800 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAQ5d2V03141 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:39:03 -0800 Received: from dialup-209.244.226.162.dial1.washington1.level3.net ([209.244.226.162] helo=user-uffjsqlpw8) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GYQ5-sr-00 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:38:02 -0800 Message-Id: X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:24:23 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "John D. Giorgis" Subject: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b2 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors David Brin and Gregory Benford. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:39 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 Dan Minette wrote: >> The US Constitution has been subject to hundreds of years of >> verification. It seems to work fairly well. On the other hand, the right of Congress to declare war has been eviscerated, the limitations on the powers of Congress in article II have been eviscerated, the 9th and 10th amendments are virtually meaningless, the US government now has trillions of dollars of debt, the US government is the country's single largest operator of a pyramid-Ponzi scheme, and a group of unelected justices overturned the electorates desire to protect unborn human life. In many respects, it could be argued that we could have done much better than the US Constitution. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Face Off may become a reality
Face transplants 'on the horizon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/health/2516181.stm A leading plastic surgeon is calling for a debate about the ethics of face transplants - which he predicts will be possible within months This would be really helpful for people with Crouzon Syndrome. IIRC, An American surgeon announced this in 1998-9, but I don't recall hearing anything about it afterwards. Jon _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
In a message dated 11/27/2002 7:39:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Governments do not generate income. Actually, they do. It is called taxes. (My apology for using a dirty word.) Agreed. But the taxes have to come from people who have incomes. Governments do not generate people's incomes. At some point, the taxes become high enough that more lower income people give up and become sucklers instead of sows. Governments do not create the income that is taxible. People scream It's our money! and the Government screams Only what we let you keep. They can't pull money for entitlements out of thin air. Correct -- that is why we pay taxes. And if the tax base decreases but expenditures remain constant? I think the disaster point is when it'll take three workers to pay for one retired person. That is not so much a disaster but a case of real lousy long-term planning. Long term planning unfortunately means almost nothing but looking towrds one's re-election. If Social Security today was the same as when it was started, it would work. I think only one worker in 20 was expected to live long enough to get benifits, and it was about 15 workers to support one retired person. [Very rough estimate. I bet John has or can get the exact figures instantly.] There were no heart transplants, lung transplant, kidney transplants etc. But naturally, no elected politician is going to decrease benifits. William Taylor - Give it to the people that are closing air bases. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil
In a message dated 11/27/2002 7:51:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When there are only two choices, then the lesser of the two evils is _not_ evil. Unless it is. That depends upon what your defin... **BANG** Ow. I'll shut up now. William Taylor - The classical Chinese language had no word for is. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion, the good side
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Erik Reuter ... Pick up any book on creativity and you'll find that creative people are interested in everything. (We're into an area of my expertise here; IIRC, that very sentence appears on my web site.) Metaphor is powerful, so is letting a problem linger in the back of one's head. Big problems are rarely solved by tackling them head-on; many are serendipitous. That is mostly sensationalism and wishful thinking. It doesn't make a good story to say that you were working on the problem for hours and you solved it. It makes a great story to say you were in the bathtub and suddenly had to jump out and run naked to your desk to write down the idea that just occurred to you. Selective memory and drama. What makes you think so? It flies in the face of the success I've had. Do you have real-world experience in this area? My successes have been at Intel, IBM, Microsoft, Apple, etc. Not to mention my own companies. Serendipity is not something you can force to happen, but it's not random, either. The first part is a tautology or a useless definition, so I'll ignore it, and the second part conflicts with the first. I don't follow. I see no conflict between the two parts. Head in an interesting direction and you're likely to find things you weren't even looking for. Head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on, and you are likely to find useful things that will help you get your work done. You can't absolutely force ideas, but you can make them more likely. Uh, that's what I said. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 10:15:50AM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: Having worked warehousing and manufacturing jobs, secretarial jobs, and creative jobs, I can confidently tell you that 6 hours of creative work is *much* more taxing that 10 or 12 hours of picking up heavy things and putting them down again Almost every company I've been to, the secretaries and manual laborers go home at 5pm (or whenever the shift ends). If you are there late, it is almost solely the people with the creative or somewhat creative jobs who are still working. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil
Reggie Bautista wrote: Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by definition, not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?). So is fiction evil? Fictional stories are not lies, because lies can only exist when there the purpose is deception. Sometimes even telling the absolute truth _is_ a lie, when it's told in such a way that the victim will not believe it. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:08:32AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: What makes you think so? Experience, observation, logic. It flies in the face of the success I've had. Do you have real-world experience in this area? More accurately, it flies in the face of your perception of the success you've had. The successes are one thing, that is an objective fact (more or less). But the mechanism of those successes, that is much harder to pin down. If your brain is as peculiar as you suggest, I'm not sure I trust the accuracy of those perceptions. I don't follow. I see no conflict between the two parts. If it is not random, then it can be influenced. Head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on, and you are likely to find useful things that will help you get your work done. You can't absolutely force ideas, but you can make them more likely. Uh, that's what I said. So, we agree that working longer (head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on) will be likely to create more results. I guess we have nothing to argue about! -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
misspelling cthulhu is evil, why it must be eradicated
Reggie Bautista wrote: (...) the last shirt I looked at said Cthulu for President: why settle for a lesser evil? Cthulhu. Ph'unglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:44:07AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: What data source do you have that contradicts the data provided by people who have actually been highly creative? Why are your anecdotal sources so much more credible than mine? I guess having a magic god-given brain makes your sources more credible? Well, maybe god just gave me a magic brain, and my brain has stronger magic than yours, did you think of that, didya, punk? :-) But, I know what has worked successfully over the years. I've been able to solve in 15 minutes what plodders haven't been able to do working 12 hour days for many days. Oh, that magic god given brain again. Of course, the perceptions of a mundane, comprehensible, objective brain are more credible than a magic brain. Your past comments on the working of the brain and intelligence have demonstrated a pattern that I think lacks scientific objectivity and therefore loses some credibility with me. If you believe something is true, especially if it relates to mental processes, it is quite likely you will find a way to make it true. Self-fulfilling prophecy. I look around and note the working habits of others who have significant creative breakthroughs. I look at the habits of those who don't. Why should one assume that the people who are creative would be even more creative if they work like those who aren't? What did I say that made you think that? The creative people can think standing on their head for all I care, but the longer they stand on their head and think, the more work they are likely to accomplish (up to a point, of course, but as I said, I know and have known many creative people who get more results up to 10 to 14 hours) Part of the problem with trying to be a creative plodder is that creativity is an edge experience. For me, at least, its foundation is coming up with a new way to ask the question. Long hard work tends to get me in a groove/rut of looking at it the same way. Looks like a mental block to me, maybe the magic god-given brain isn't all its cracked up to be. There are lots of ways to work and look at things from a different angle other than playing golf. Although if you are thinking about the problem most of the time you are playing golf, then I would call that working longer hours. The proof is in the pudding. Let me give one final example. After months of effort, a theorist came up with a solution to a special case of a general problem. He discussed it with Feynman. Feynman proved to be interested and asked him questions. The guy was thrilled that Feynman took an interest in his work. The next day, Feynman had the general solution. Why did you get the idea that I was saying no one is better at problem solving than anyone else? If you had a story where Feynman worked 6 hour days and solved a problem more quickly than when he worked 12 hours days, then you would have something relevant. Most breakthroughs are made by those with a God given spark, not by the hardest workers. I assume you mean by that, those with an exceptional mind. Or do you mean to say that only god can create an exceptional mind? Anyway, more breakthroughs will be made by those with exceptional minds WHO WORK LONGER HOURS than those with equally exceptional minds who work shorter hours. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
William T Goodall wrote: No, all lies are still evil. I replied: Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by definition, not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?). So is fiction evil? William responded: Lie - a false statement made with the intention of deceiving: anything misleading or of the nature of imposture. Fiction doesn't pretend to be true, and therefore isn't a lie. Not all Christians are fundamentalists who insist on the literal truth of the Bible. Many Christians interpret most of the stories in the bible as parable and metaphor. Therefore, for those people, the Bible doesn't lie. And if it turns out that portions of the New Testament are literal truth (portions, because it can't *all* be true -- it contradicts itself), then the Bible doesn't lie. The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled anyway, because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as evidenced by the contradictions I mentioned above. If you take issue with fundamentalists, I'm right there with you 100%. If you take issue with all Christians because the Bible is not 100% literal truth, then you are making a straw man arguement. Reggie Bautista _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
Erik wrote: Anyway, more breakthroughs will be made by those with exceptional minds WHO WORK LONGER HOURS than those with equally exceptional minds who work shorter hours. I think the only real issue here is the definition of work. If by work longer hours you mean work longer hours tied to a desk, then I (and probably Dan and Nick) will have to continue to disagree with you. But if by work longer hours you mean think about the problems while working on other things to let the subconscious work on the problem, then I think we're all in agreement. Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion, the good side
On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:02:08PM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: But if by work longer hours you mean think about the problems while working on other things to let the subconscious work on the problem, then I think we're all in agreement. No, I don't mean working on other things, unless those other things are occupying only a small part of your thinking (for example, thinking about the problem while driving down a long empty road would qualify as working, but not reading a book about something unrelated). -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html *blink* *twitch* Make it stop Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just clicked on this and it told me that the page could not be found. What's up? Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil
I wrote: The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that it is literal truth, Alberto replied: This is an empty set. Books such as _Job_ are considered as fiction by everyone. Perhaps this is true in Brazil, but I know of at least one person who sits two rows over from me who believes that every single word in the Bible is the literal truth. And she's not alone. I think it's really sad, but it's true. I spent a few years part-time at a community college before transferring to UMKC (University of Missouri at Kansas City), and there were whole *droves* of people who believed in the literal truth. And they kept trying to recruit me. Reggie Bautista Resistance is *not* futile _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html *blink* *twitch* Make it stop Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guatam wrote: I just clicked on this and it told me that the page could not be found. What's up? A problem with your internet service provider? I just clicked on the link and it opened a new browser window and took me right there. And then I saw it starting again and panicked, and managed to close not only that window, but also the one below it, and had to sign back on to Hotmail to send this reply to you :-) Reggie Bautista _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
brin-l.com is down
Unsure if this has already been mentioned (or if anyone gives a rat's behind), but brin-l.com is down. It's been down for at least 12 hours -- possibly longer. I had been working on updating my website through Frontpage last night and the link kept getting a 'down' tag. Jon _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion, the good side
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Erik Reuter Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:41 AM ... More accurately, it flies in the face of your perception of the success you've had. The successes are one thing, that is an objective fact (more or less). But the mechanism of those successes, that is much harder to pin down. If your brain is as peculiar as you suggest, I'm not sure I trust the accuracy of those perceptions. I don't follow. I see no conflict between the two parts. If it is not random, then it can be influenced. I haven't argued that it can't be influenced. I argued that it cannot be forced. That's like the difference between criticism and censorship. So, we agree that working longer (head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on) will be likely to create more results. I guess we have nothing to argue about! Only if one equates working longer with head in an interesting direction. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
on 27/11/02 6:20 pm, Gautam Mukunda at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html *blink* *twitch* Make it stop Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just clicked on this and it told me that the page could not be found. What's up? Gautam He probably exceeded his bandwidth quota and had to remove it. Just for you I have recreated it at http://homepage.mac.com/williamgoodall/iMovieTheater8.html And will take it down tomorrow. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: misspelling cthulhu is evil, why it must be eradicated
I wrote: (...) the last shirt I looked at said Cthulhu for President: why settle for a lesser evil? and somehow evil Hotmail changed that to: (...) the last shirt I looked at said Cthulu for President: why settle for a lesser evil? and so Alberto replied: Cthulhu. Ph'unglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! I promise, I really did spell it correctly the first time I typed it. I dunno what happened. It must be Nyarlathotep's fault... :-) Reggie Bautista How many other ways can I temp the Elders today? Maru _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
on 27/11/02 5:58 pm, Reggie Bautista at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William T Goodall wrote: No, all lies are still evil. I replied: Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by definition, not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?). So is fiction evil? William responded: Lie - a false statement made with the intention of deceiving: anything misleading or of the nature of imposture. Fiction doesn't pretend to be true, and therefore isn't a lie. Not all Christians are fundamentalists who insist on the literal truth of the Bible. Many Christians interpret most of the stories in the bible as parable and metaphor. Therefore, for those people, the Bible doesn't lie. And if it turns out that portions of the New Testament are literal truth (portions, because it can't *all* be true -- it contradicts itself), then the Bible doesn't lie. That would mean that portions of it weren't lies, not all of it. The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled anyway, because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as evidenced by the contradictions I mentioned above. If you take issue with fundamentalists, I'm right there with you 100%. If you take issue with all Christians because the Bible is not 100% literal truth, then you are making a straw man arguement. Some Anglican clergy in England (or so I have heard) have the position that the Bible is parable and metaphor, that some of the historical events *may* have taken place (although that doesn't really matter), but that none of the miracles actually happened, that there was no actual resurrection, that Jesus (if he was a historical figure) was not literally the son of God (since God doesn't literally exist) and so on. Under this interpretation the Bible could be interpreted as not making any counterfactual claims and therefore possibly not lying. But I don't think that is the interpretation of all Christians who are not fundamentalists. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
RE: http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html, I wrote: I just clicked on the link and it opened a new browser window and took me right there. William T. Goodall replied: You must have some caching going on, because it is gone. I just went back again, and clicked refresh in Internet Explorer to reload, and still was able to see it. So I typed the URL in Netscape Navigator, which I had not used previously to view it. And it came up. Then I clicked Reload in Netscape and got a message saying it wasn't there. So I re-typed it and pressed enter. And it was there. Then I clicked Reload again and it wasn't there again. So I tried again in Internet Explorer, and it worked 2 out of 5 times. Very strange. Perhaps something is working strangely at mac.com's webserver? Reggie Bautista Truly Puzzled Maru _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
William T. Goodall wrote: Some Anglican clergy in England (or so I have heard) have the position that the Bible is parable and metaphor, that some of the historical events *may* have taken place (although that doesn't really matter), but that none of the miracles actually happened, that there was no actual resurrection, that Jesus (if he was a historical figure) was not literally the son of God (since God doesn't literally exist) and so on. Under this interpretation the Bible could be interpreted as not making any counterfactual claims and therefore possibly not lying. But I don't think that is the interpretation of all Christians who are not fundamentalists. True, it's probably not the interpretation of all Christians who are not fundamentalists, but it's at least pretty close to the interpretation of this particular (more or less) Christian who is definitely not a fundamentalist. The original thing that started this whole discussion was a proof that religion is evil because of lies. If, in my case, my religion is not a lie, then in my case, at least, religion is not evil based on that proof. Now, if you'd care to revise the proof... :-) Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
De : Reggie Bautista [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] RE: http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html, I wrote: I just went back again, and clicked refresh in Internet Explorer to reload, and still was able to see it. So I typed the URL in Netscape Navigator, which I had not used previously to view it. And it came up. Then I clicked Reload in Netscape and got a message saying it wasn't there. So I re-typed it and pressed enter. And it was there. Then I clicked Reload again and it wasn't there again. So I tried again in Internet Explorer, and it worked 2 out of 5 times. In a typically brinellian way, Reggies demonstrates a willingness to undergo severe metal anguish to prove himself right. Reggie Bautista Truly Puzzled Maru Either that or you're a masochist. :-) Jean-Louis, who woke up with the tune in his mental jukebox and hasn't shaken it since. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
Jean-Louis wrote: In a typically brinellian way, Reggies demonstrates a willingness to undergo severe metal anguish to prove himself right. Reggie Bautista Truly Puzzled Maru Either that or you're a masochist. :-) Nope, I'm just a compulsive troubleshooter. Hmm, maybe that *does* make me a masochist :-) Reggie Bautista I've been called far worse Maru _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. This may all just be some big matrix I am in, but math works either way. What about the Axiom of Choice? Does it exist? Or the Continuum Hypothesis? Does it exist? AoC: Neither accepting it or NOT accepting it leads to a contradiction. Both are valid. Analysis of the Continuum One path to finding out if CH is true is to look for sets of real numbers that have cardinality greater than aleph0 and less than c. If such sets exist, then CH is false. While looking for these sets mathematicians have decomposed the reals into different types of sets and come up with characterizations of the reals, continua, and continuity. 3.3.1 Decomposing the Reals There are many ways to decompose the reals. We can split the reals into two sets, such as the rational and irrational numbers or the algebraic and transcendental numbers, or we can look at types of subsets of the reals, such as Borel sets and non-Borel sets. The hope is that these decompositions will help us to characterize the entire set of reals. For example, the rationals provide a good approximation to the reals because any real number can be approximated as closely as you please by a rational number. This should serve as a warning though. Despite the rationals' great ability to represent the reals they are of a different cardinality than the reals. So, just because a collection of sets is a good approximation of the reals doesn't mean that it will give us much useful information about cardinality questions. Bearing this in mind, let's try to understand CH by looking at sets that, in some sense, represent the reals. CH is true for closed, Borel, and analytic sets, i.e.: any infinite closed set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. any infinite Borel set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. any infinite analytic set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. This means that if there is a set that falsifies CH, i.e., a set with cardinality between aleph0 and c, it will not be one of these types of sets. Since there are only c of these types of sets and there are 2csubsets of R, there are plenty of sets left which might falsify CH! http://www.ii.com/math/ch/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The Fool ... conquestadors, slavery, apartheid, and feudal systems were political and conquistadors: conquer, take gold, convert to catholicism. Notice how most of south America is adamantly catholic? I don't think there's any question that the primary goal, far and away, was material. And there's a very good argument that Catholicism was (and still often is) abused by the minority to retain political and economic power. The fact that religion can be misused so effectively doesn't prove that it is bad, only that it is very powerful. Slavery was ever aided and abetted by the bible, the bible says slavery is OK, tells how to mark slaves, how to treat slaves, how to sell slaves, how to free slaves (except female slaves). It was the religious who used the bible as justification for slavery in the south, before-during-after the civil war. Same argument as above. The war was about economics and states' rights, wasn't it? No. Titus 2:9-10 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please them well, not talking back, 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things. 1 Peter 2:18-20 18 Let house servants be in subjection to their owners with all due fear, not only to the good and reasonable, but also to those hard to please. 19 For if someone, because of conscience toward God, bears up under grievous things and suffers unjustly, this is an agreeable thing. 20 For what merit is there in it if, when YOU are sinning and being slapped, YOU endure it? But if, when YOU are doing good and YOU suffer, YOU endure it, this is a thing agreeable with God. divine right of kings: Kings can do anything because god appointed them, and so they are acting on behalf of god. This is a pivotal christian doctrine. No, it is most certainly not. That is a medieval idea that was quite self-serving for those in power. Although the Bible says that leaders fulfill God's purposes, it also quite clearly says that the purpose may be to show people a negative example. Christianity teaches that *everyone* makes mistakes, except Adam before the Fall and Christ. You'd do well to learn more about what Christianity actually teaches if you're going to criticize it. Criticism that is based on extreme interpretations isn't going to convince the mainstream. We're not all right-wing fundamentalists. Romans 13:1-4 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God's minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad. Colossians 1:16 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Titus 3:1-2 3 Continue reminding them to be in subjection and be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak injuriously of no one, not to be belligerent, to be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool quoted a bunch of biblical quotes to show how the Bible endorses slavery and the divine right of kings. My reply: This is why a literal interpretation of the Bible is problematic at best. For each of these passages, there are other passages that can be quoted that contradict them (I don't have the time or patience to do a search right now, but I may have time sometime next week). The Bible is great as a historical document. The Bible is also great as a philosophical treatise. It even includes a little history among all the parable and allegory. But it should not be taken as literal truth or literal direction. Reggie Bautista The above paragraph is IMHO, YMMV, as usual. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool - Isn't religion is evil a rather broad statement? Do you really No. It is an exact statement. believe ALL religions are inherently evil? Do no religions do any good for Yes. the world so that they must all be eradicated? No, yes. As for the Crusades: http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Crusades.html . It took quite long, but I think civilization is slowly maturing -- and so are our religions (despite the fact some seem lodged in the past and are only maturing reluctantly). Looking at the world *today*, can you really say that all of the world's religions *as a whole* ultimately produce more far more bad than good in the world? Yes. Remember two things - 1) much of the world's charity is organized/administered by religions and 2) Just as you say that some Bullshit. The U.S. gives the smallest percent of it's gdp as foreign aid (of all industrialized nations), but that number is still larger than what any other nation gives as aid by a wide margin. people commit evil for their god, there are many (and I'd say far more) who commit good for their god. Spreading, irrationality, anti-science, esoteric Trvth, wars in any number of nations, and other things aren't evil? And I'd say the threat/promise of an afterlife that many religions have has a net postive effect. Spreading the Threat And/Or promise of an afterlife is single most evil thing religion does. It's what gives terrorists the ability to commit massive kamikaze attacks against innocents. What justifies your absolutism to say religion must be eradicated? Anything that preaches irrational ideas as rational is something that has to be stopped. Does this absolutism apply to other institutions and facets of life? Yes. You never responded to other people's analogous questions, so I'll pose some here: - The Germans committed many evil, terrible atrocities in WWII. Should all Germans today be eradicated? You are Creating a false dichotomy. - Alcohol has ruined lives, caused countless deaths, and probably even caused a number of wars. Should alcohol be abolished? Yes. - Some people will put forward a fervent case replete with proof that the USA (aka Great Satan) -or perhpas even all western civilization- is quite evil and should be eradicated. Would you agree? That is irrational and religious. Why would I advocate irrational/religious conspiracies? Honestly, I don't think anyone here is strongly debating whether assorted religions are responsible for some evils of the past/present. The thing is that you're overlooking a great many other factors, such as the fact that religions are human institutions and are subject to human fallibilities just like everything else we do. Also, economic factors play/played a big role in much religious zealotry of the present and past. Blaming religion without considering things such as these is only seeing a small part of the picture. Religions were created because of the fear of death. Taking away that fear of death allows people to kill others at will: because those others they kill don't really die, they go so some mythical plane of being. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 04:59 PM 11/25/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: Hum. The dark ages, IIRC, were a result of invading barbarians destroying a weakened Rome. The Catholic Church helped preserve what knowledge was left and bring them to the end. The catholic church did ten times as much damage as the sacking of Rome ever did. Well, as a statement, I find this particularly unconvincing. Perhaps you should try backing it up. I said I would get to my anti-religion/christ essay sometime in jan/feb. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: I think Julia did not take a good look at the items I suggested. Might I suggest she click on the See larger picture link or read the reviewers' descriptions? (If she does, I think she will see why the shipping restrictions are not a problem . . . ) ROTFLMAO I missed it the first time I looked. But you maybe right. That might just be it. At least Jeroen can't do any major damage to the house or himself using those. On the other hand he would be hard pressed keeping Tom out of this kind of toolkit, seen the interest little Tom already developed for mamies grown ups toolbox. grin Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reggie Bautista asked: Kneem, should the Republican party be eradicated because of the illegal actions of Richard Nixon? Should the Democratic party be eradicated because of the illegal actions of Bill Clinton? Should Democracy be banned because eventually we [*] elect a jerk, a tyrant, a thief or a megalomaniac? Alberto Monteiro covering my ass [*] we must be taken as a generalization, and I am not thinking about any specific election that happened recently in any country. /covering my ass Bullshit. Bush is all of those things and you know it. Not quite. If I remember my history correctly Hitler was elected, so was Mussolini and if I'm not totally mistaken a few other proven megalomaniacs and or thieves and or etc. as well. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Jeroen wrote: However, given the worship of the Almighty Dollar by some people, one cannot help but wonder if Capitalism qualifies as a religion... :-) Not Capitalism, but just one perverted sect of capitalism that believes that the dollar is worth anything but what is written in it. Reminds me of how that American expert on counterfitting so charmingly put it, when interviewed by the BBC on the subject of why the dollar isn't made more frauderesistant by adding additional safety features: The dollar basically is our money but in essential it is your problem not ours. Sonja :o) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Dan Minette wrote: One needs to look at sources that support one's view with the same critical eye as those that oppose it. Technique is a good starting point. nitpick I think that that is scientifically incorrect. You first need to try to disprove your own point in all possible ways to be able to prove it. So you need to look more closely at the opposing sources. /nitpick Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
K. Feete wrote: Superstition and irrational beliefs occur with or without religion. Witness Skinner's superstitious pigeons, or my conviction that mentioning the fact that it's raining if I want it to rain will make the rain stop. grin I thought that's what umbrellas are for. Bring one and it won't rain, forget yours and it will pour. No? ;o) Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Catholic View of Sex
At 12:28 AM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 09:34 PM 11/24/2002 -0500 K. Feete wrote: I'm living with a girl who's strongly Catholic right now. I don't understand her, and she doesn't understand me, but we've learned which subjects to avoid (sex is the biggie) and we get along very well. Why do you avoid this topic? My best friend is a firm believer that premarital sex is something to be encouraged. Yet, even though we disagree totally, we learn a lot from our disagreements. JDG You four should go on a double date then. In fact make it a series of four dates, so you switch partners twice.* Kevin T. *I mean after the initial awkwardness of the first date, you have a second date with the same person so you can have more relaxed conversations, then switch partners. **Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Galileo wakes from radiation-induced coma
From CNN: Galileo wakes from radiation-induced coma By Richard Stenger CNN Wednesday, November 27, 2002 Posted: 9:57 AM EST (1457 GMT) (CNN) -- An aging Jupiter probe that shut down during its final and most daring scientific mission has resumed normal operations, according to NASA. The Galileo spacecraft, which went silent November 5 after making its closest approach to Jupiter, is now in good working order, except for its tape recorder, mission scientists said this week. The instrument stored data recorded during the flyby, which brought Galileo within 44,500 miles (71,500 kilometers) of Jupiter's visible clouds. It appears that the tape recorder has taken a hit from the intense radiation Galileo passed through. Our efforts to restore the tape recorder may continue for a few weeks, said Eilene Theilig, lead Galileo scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. The descent, the most dangerous since Galileo arrived in the giant planet system seven years ago, took the ship deep into the dangerous radiation belts enveloping Jupiter. Galileo, which has endured four times as much radiation as it was designed to withstand, shuts down automatically when faced with high radiation levels, a reflexive response called safe mode intended to protect its sensitive electronics. The $1.4 billion craft has survived other deep forays into the radiation belts, but the one in November subjected it to twice as much radiation as any previous encounter. The repeated energy bathes have taken a toll in recent years. Galileo's camera is now shuttered and its tape player has become stuck several times. NASA engineers have always managed to unblock the tape player, but diagnostic tests suggest that the current problem is different. They hope to fix the recording device to download data from the November 5 dive, which took Galileo within 100 miles (160 kilometers) of the tiny inner moon Amalthea and inside Jupiter's little studied gossamer ring, an extremely faint and diffuse debris band outside the planet's main ring. The observations include information about dust levels, charged particles and possibly the composition and density of Amalthea, an oddly shaped satellite about 155 miles (250 kilometers) wide. Whether the data is recovered or not, Galileo, nearly spent of fuel, remains on a collision course with Jupiter in September 2003. The fatal plunge is to ensure that the bus-sized robot ship does not strike and contaminate the large moon Europa, thought to possess a vast subsurface ocean that could harbor microbial life. _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
At 12:02 27-11-2002 -0500, William Taylor wrote: Governments do not generate income. Actually, they do. It is called taxes. (My apology for using a dirty word.) Agreed. But the taxes have to come from people who have incomes. Governments do not generate people's incomes. True; people generate their own income by working for it. Of course, it might be argued that the income of people in the Civil Service is generated by most of the population, as these people are paid with taxpayers' money. Allow me to use this opportunity to send a big Thanks! to Ticia for her contributions to my paycheck! :-) At some point, the taxes become high enough that more lower income people give up and become sucklers instead of sows. Sucklers? Sows? What are those? They can't pull money for entitlements out of thin air. Correct -- that is why we pay taxes. And if the tax base decreases but expenditures remain constant? Then the government will have to commit the mother of all cruel acts: raise taxes. EVIL GRIN I think the disaster point is when it'll take three workers to pay for one retired person. That is not so much a disaster but a case of real lousy long-term planning. Long term planning unfortunately means almost nothing but looking towrds one's re-election. That is a politician's viewpoint; when I say long-term planning I am thinking more along the lines of planning ahead for the several decades. If Social Security today was the same as when it was started, it would work. Social Security over here has not changed all that much over time, it is the age distribution of the population that has changed. Our biggest problem with Social Security right now is State Pensions. When it was first set up (1950's IIRC) there were many young people and relatively few old people, so paying for it was not a problem. However, the guy who set it up did not think of the fact that those young people would some day be old enough to apply for a State Pension, and that there might not be enough younger people then to pay for it. He also did not (but probably could not) foresee that old people would live longer, and thus would be receiving a State Pension longer. Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
At 14:37 27-11-2002 -0500, Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: In a typically brinellian way, Reggies demonstrates a willingness to undergo severe metal anguish to prove himself right. Hey, I thought that was *my* prerogative! Er... um... er... forget I said that... GRIN Jeroen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:10:21 -0500 At 11:43 PM 11/26/2002 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to guess it's the Social Security system he's referring to. I'm sure he'll let us know if I'm right. Indeed, we have a winner. :) As opposed to anyone under 40 who's paying into Social Security. Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for saddling America's future generations with this disaster. JDG John, My family barely survived one year (when I was quite young) and wouldn't have if it weren't for temporary use of SSDI and unemployment benefits. Have you ever had to depend on unemployment and/or SSDI as a temporary, sole source of income to feed your children? I suspect you haven't. From experience, it tends to make one more sympathetic to the plight of others who have. I do think the SSI/SSDI system is overtaxed and taken advantage of, yes. But the concept itself has, I know from personal experience, helped many people who need a hand. I'm obviously referring here to people who might need a temporary boost, or to a retiree living on a fixed income and not people who are milking the system. A followup Q: does this mean you would also like to eliminate unemployment benefits? They certainly seem to be in the same category... Jon _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
A rubber mallet is a very useful thing. I think we could use another one around here. Crescent wrenches aren't too bad. A crescent wrench implies something that's already tooled to fit together, just needing tightening or something. (Of course, you can over-tighten, and get problems that way. Fortunately, Bowflex will send replacement bolts if you ask them.) To be fair I have to admit that although Jeroen is somewhat of a dummy at any form of constructive DIY he is very good at the destructive kind. Last year he spent almost a week getting down all the plaster (stripping the whole lot back to the brikwork where necessary) from all the walls and ceilings in our hallway (with a simple chisel and a klaw hammer). It was a lot of plaster that came off those walls. I believe it took about 700 kg dry weight to replace it all. Wow. I don't like plaster. Too hard to get anything into it to hang things, was my experience at my mother's new (actually, rather old) house. (I say new because she bought it in 1999, but it was built in the 1930s. At least, the original part of it was. It had an addition sometime before 1980, and then another one IIRC in 1992. The last addition is a nice large room, on the order of 6m X 6m.) I've got a system worked out now for putting things up when it's wood studs for the frame and drywall for the wall surface. Julia Three relevant points in one posts! I almost feel like e-mailing off list, but that's gotten a bad rap lately. First the Bowflex: you have one? You like? My gym membership runs out soon and while I'm much stronger and healthier than I was last year, the other reasons I joined this gym have gone away. It will be good for me to drop the membership. I already have home free weights and a chepo bench, but was wondering about a machine. I saw this: http://healthfxamerica.com/ which is much cheaper. While I'm not a serious mechanic anymore, my favorite tool(s) you had to special order from sears. They are tappet wrenches. Couldn't find an easy link, and don't know if they make them in metric. They have a thinner head than a normal wrench, with two sizes on each wrench, and are longer. My four wrenches saw more action than any other tool in my belt pouch. Still haven't started yet, waiting for the mad season to be over with: Sonja, what do you mean about the weight of the plaster replaced, 700kg? Do you mean that 50kg came off a wall that had to be replaced with something else, or that was truly the weight of the material that was new? I've got my house mapped out, home much surface material and insulation I'll need and the current costs. I'm pulling new electric, cable, and phone wires for each room, plus other things. Maybe new whole house AC, but will wait to see how much new insulation helps. The room I'm in now will be the last of six because it's currently the nicest. I'd like to move or remove a wall to redo the kitchen, wondering if I should consult an architect or interior design person. Any suggestion/experiences? A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad ones. He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop ceilings, and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I have the walls open. I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC drain pipes (noise). Kevin T. One person, yet the laundry never stops. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bush Seeks To Roll-Back Clean Air Rules
Existing rules require U.S. utilities and refineries to invest in state-of-the-art pollution controls if a plant undergoes a major expansion or modification. The issue is pivotal for aging coal-fired utilities in the Midwest that could face hundreds of millions of dollars in new investments. Under the proposed rules, the EPA would change the definition of routine maintenance to give utilities more leeway to modify a plant without triggering extra pollution-reduction requirements. So let's say that a coal fired power plant wanted to upgrade their steam turbines to a new design that was 15 percent more efficient than their previous design. Under the old (Clinton era) rules, this would trigger the EPA to force new source review; killing the upgrade because of the hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade the entire plant to the highest achievable standards. So instead of being 15 percent more efficient, plants are only being maintained and not improved. Maybe you would like to explain how in this case the Clinton era policy actually helps the environment? The Bush rollback consists of putting the new source review back to where it belongs, namely in ensuring that any new power plant be built to utilize the best pollution fighting technology available. Old coal plants are by definition old. They should be allowed to upgrade as necessary without being burdened with regulations that only brand new power plants should adhere to. Critics also warned that the new proposal could endanger ongoing lawsuits brought by the EPA against nine U.S. utilities to enforce the new source review rules. Always important to sue utility companies. It's only one of the ways the government makes everything we buy just a little more expensive. And maybe a little less cleaner than they should be. Hanging with the Anti-Christ, Matthew Bos Rah rah! Another true answer, not rhetoric like the journalists like to push. Your posts are too few and far between Matthew, but quality makes up for quantity a hundred-fold. Kevin T. No added value(my post) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Return-Path: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:34:25 EST Subject: Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, for example, no matter what field you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, I'd be okay. Hey I am at Cornell, we don't want you right wing nut jobs. But we could still have dinner Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb04.mx.aol.com (rly-xb04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.105]) by air-xb02.mail.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILINXB24-1126115950; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:59:50 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com ([206.204.15.162]) by rly-xb04.mx.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXB42-1126115941; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:59:41 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAQH0TV11471; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:00:29 -0800 Received: from web14609.mail.yahoo.com (web14609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.224.241]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id gAQH0MV11461 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from [157.191.2.17] by web14609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 PST Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: Gautam Mukunda Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b2 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors David Brin and Gregory Benford. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) > > Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually > > getting an academic job are essentially zero, but > > that's the way these things work nowadays... > > > > Gautam > > You're just in the wrong field . . . > -- Ronn! :) True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, for example, no matter what field you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, I'd be okay. Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Googlism
J. van Baardwijk wrote: jeroen died of viral myocarditis jeroen unfortunately died on January 22, 1999 jeroen has been cured Medicine is pretty advanced in the Netherlands... add obligatory 2nd line here Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 12:10 AM, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 11:43 PM 11/26/2002 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to guess it's the Social Security system he's referring to. I'm sure he'll let us know if I'm right. Indeed, we have a winner. :) As opposed to anyone under 40 who's paying into Social Security. Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for saddling America's future generations with this disaster. JDG ___ Your complaint should be with successive administrations and legislatures who expanded Social Security to an unsustainable point. As for FDR's greatness, I'll stack him up against ANY President in the latter half of the 20th Century. All pale in comparison. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Something fun based on Something Scouted. :)
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/business/media/27MAG.html The National Enquirer's owner is expected to announce the purchase Weider Publications, the publisher of Muscle Fitness and Shape. Possible Brinnellian headlines for the new Shape and Muscle Fitness covers: Get healthier skin: 4 'when to shed' tips from Soro Queen 'Spork'. Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks out about the Pila and Eyedrop Abuse. Jophur pharmacist arrested for selling Phen Phen under the ring. Shocking Expose: Hoonish Diet Protein Shakes a Scam Build a better body (and a second head) in just 30 days. Our new Bench Pressing regime from Gorilla Ooga The best diet ever! (Hint, it involves Steroids Anal Probes) Can't stop eating? Try our new exploding cheesecake recipe from Tymbrimi Chef Sirellicalluana Any takers? :-) Jon _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BRIN-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof) on 27/11/02 1:48 pm, Richard Baker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeroen said: QED lies are evil. Not at all. The statement lies are evil might more accurately be stated all lies are evil. John G gave a counterexample, Which was flawed. so the statement all lies are evil is not true. You've only given a counterexample to the statement no lies are evil. We're left, therefore, with some but not all lies are evil. No, all lies are still evil. No honey, those pants don't make you look fat. I rest my case. xponent You Gotta Be Stupid Not Have Seen That Coming Maru G rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:58 27-11-2002 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled anyway, because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as evidenced by the contradictions I mentioned above. You only mentioned the *existence* of contradictions, you did not give any *examples* of contradictions in the bible. Someone who has never read the bible might not be familiar with any contradictions in it, so you should provide one or two examples. Aaron dies twice: once at mount sinai, once again forty years later before entering the promised land. Yeshua's father joseph has two geaneologies, both different from each other, listed in matthew, and luke. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
on 28/11/02 12:29 am, Robert Seeberger at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, all lies are still evil. No honey, those pants don't make you look fat. I rest my case. But 'honey' was probably asking because she intends to go out in public and be seen by lots of people wearing *those* pants. Now what's evil? -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
At 06:29 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, you wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BRIN-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof) on 27/11/02 1:48 pm, Richard Baker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeroen said: QED lies are evil. Not at all. The statement lies are evil might more accurately be stated all lies are evil. John G gave a counterexample, Which was flawed. so the statement all lies are evil is not true. You've only given a counterexample to the statement no lies are evil. We're left, therefore, with some but not all lies are evil. No, all lies are still evil. No honey, those pants don't make you look fat. I rest my case. xponent You Gotta Be Stupid Not Have Seen That Coming Maru G rob To be follow by the crowd pleaser: 'It's the pint of ice cream and sitting on the sofa every night from 5 - 10 that make you 'look' fat.' Kevin T. Have I been dinged? I don't see my e-mails coming back. (Not a bad thing, my connection is much faster again.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
At 07:23 PM 11/27/2002 -0500 John Garcia should have wrote: As for Reagan's greatness, I'll stack him up against ANY President in the latter half of the 20th Century. All pale in comparison. :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
At 10:43 AM 11/28/2002 +1000, you wrote: Kevin Tarr wrote: I'm pulling new electric, cable, and phone wires for each room, plus other things. Maybe new whole house AC, but will wait to see how much new insulation helps. Ducting is whole lot easier while you're ripping into things than to come back and do it later. Unless you're looking at having several head units in strategic locations (which means only the refrigeration pipes need to traverse the house between the main compressor and the head units instead of running full ducts), then make the decision now. The room I'm in now will be the last of six because it's currently the nicest. I'd like to move or remove a wall to redo the kitchen, wondering if I should consult an architect or interior design person. Any suggestion/experiences? A builder. I've seen too many people remove/relocate a wall only to discover that the wall had some load bearing function. A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad ones. He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop ceilings, and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I have the walls open. I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC drain pipes (noise). Depending on the age of the house (well, of the plumbing to be precise), it may be worthwhile replacing the cast iron pipes with new cast iron pipes. The old ones will have layers of rust, calcium and general gunk in them dramatically reducing their effectiveness. Same applies for water supply pipes. Either that or put in PVC (much easier and cheaper) and then jam insulation around them before you reclad the walls. Depending on the climate, I'd keep the 9 foot ceilings. They're coming back into vogue here now as an extra cost option when you contract to have a house built. Cooler in summer and a more open and airy feel to the room. Cheers Russell C. Kevin T. One person, yet the laundry never stops. (and nor will the renovations and repairs once you start...) Never mind about my other post, wondering if they are getting lost. Some people are e-mailing from the future. What are tonight's powerball numbers? I'll share. Thank you for the reply. Going backwards: southern PA is the climate. Trust me, dropped ceilings were never an option, but he says it every time. I can stand the lower heat settings, I do great with my fuel costs, but the summers are horrid. The house has complete exposure east, west, and south. Sometime days it was 85 at 5am inside, while 70 outside. I know about getting the heat out, but sometimes can't. That does seem like a good idea, with the PVC pipes. I know I 'should' replace the iron, but I don't want to; at least 75 years old. That decision is far in the future. It's a whole complicated mess: The bathroom is big, I could put in shower and whirlpool. But I'd have to keep the one wall I'd like to remove in place for that extra weight. My kitchen, limited by this wall, is very small, the sink, stove and most cabinets are in another room from fridge and table. Yes a builder is a good idea. But again: that is far in the future, the last phase. I understand about the duct work, I have to think about it. There are other considerations. Kevin T. But again: thank you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 06:29 PM 11/27/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: Yeshua's father joseph has two geneologies, both different from each other, listed in matthew, and luke. One is possibly the genealogy of Mary. NO. Nowhere does it say 'Mary'. It says father to 'Joseph' and 'Joseph' son of... It says: Matthew 1:1-16 1 The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham: 2 Abraham became father to Isaac; Isaac became father to Jacob; Jacob became father to Judah and his brothers; 3 Judah became father to Pe'rez and to Ze'rah by Ta'mar; Pe'rez became father to Hez'ron; Hez'ron became father to Ram; 4 Ram became father to Am·min'a·dab; Am·min'a·dab became father to Nah'shon; Nah'shon became father to Sal'mon; 5 Sal'mon became father to Bo'az by Ra'hab; Bo'az became father to O'bed by Ruth; O'bed became father to Jes'se; 6 Jes'se became father to David the king. David became father to Sol'o·mon by the wife of U·ri'ah; 7 Sol'o·mon became father to Re·ho·bo'am; Re·ho·bo'am became father to A·bi'jah; A·bi'jah became father to A'sa; 8 A'sa became father to Je·hosh'a·phat; Je·hosh'a·phat became father to Je·ho'ram; Je·ho'ram became father to Uz·zi'ah; 9 Uz·zi'ah became father to Jo'tham; Jo'tham became father to A'haz; A'haz became father to Hez·e·ki'ah; 10 Hez·e·ki'ah became father to Ma·nas'seh; Ma·nas'seh became father to A'mon; A'mon became father to Jo·si'ah; 11 Jo·si'ah became father to Jec·o·ni'ah and to his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. 12 After the deportation to Babylon Jec·o·ni'ah became father to She·al'ti·el; She·al'ti·el became father to Ze·rub'ba·bel; 13 Ze·rub'ba·bel became father to A·bi'ud; A·bi'ud became father to E·li'a·kim; E·li'a·kim became father to A'zor; 14 A'zor became father to Za'dok; Za'dok became father to A'chim; A'chim became father to E·li'ud; 15 E·li'ud became father to El·e·a'zar; El·e·a'zar became father to Mat'than; Mat'than became father to Jacob; 16 Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. Luke 3:23-38 23 Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, [son] of He'li, 24 [son] of Mat'that, [son] of Le'vi, [son] of Mel'chi, [son] of Jan'na·i, [son] of Joseph, 25 [son] of Mat·ta·thi'as, [son] of A'mos, [son] of Na'hum, [son] of Es'li, [son] of Nag'ga·i, 26 [son] of Ma'ath, [son] of Mat·ta·thi'as, [son] of Sem'e·in, [son] of Jo'sech, [son] of Jo'da, 27 [son] of Jo·an'an, [son] of Rhe'sa, [son] of Ze·rub'ba·bel, [son] of She·al'ti·el, [son] of Ne'ri, 28 [son] of Mel'chi, [son] of Ad'di, [son] of Co'sam, [son] of El·ma'dam, [son] of Er, 29 [son] of Jesus, [son] of E·li·e'zer, [son] of Jo'rim, [son] of Mat'that, [son] of Le'vi, 30 [son] of Sym'e·on, [son] of Judas, [son] of Joseph, [son] of Jo'nam, [son] of E·li'a·kim, 31 [son] of Me'le·a, [son] of Men'na, [son] of Mat'ta·tha, [son] of Nathan, [son] of David, 32 [son] of Jes'se, [son] of O'bed, [son] of Bo'az, [son] of Sal'mon, [son] of Nah'shon, 33 [son] of Am·min'a·dab, [son] of Ar'ni, [son] of Hez'ron, [son] of Pe'rez, [son] of Judah, 34 [son] of Jacob, [son] of Isaac, [son] of Abraham, [son] of Te'rah, [son] of Na'hor, 35 [son] of Se'rug, [son] of Re'u, [son] of Pe'leg, [son] of E'ber, [son] of She'lah, 36 [son] of Ca·i'nan, [son] of Ar·pach'shad, [son] of Shem, [son] of Noah, [son] of La'mech, 37 [son] of Me·thu'se·lah, [son] of E'noch, [son] of Ja'red, [son] of Ma·ha'la·le·el, [son] of Ca·i'nan, 38 [son] of E'nosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
- Original Message - From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:58 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds??? last of six because it's currently the nicest. I'd like to move or remove a wall to redo the kitchen, wondering if I should consult an architect or interior design person. Any suggestion/experiences? A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad ones. He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop ceilings, and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I have the walls open. I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC drain pipes (noise). 9 foot ceilings are much nicer. They make a room look spacious. If the cast iron is in good shape and not rusted through, keep it. Iron pipe is much more durable. Are your walls plaster or drywall? Stippling the ceiling and a nice wallpaper border at the top of a wall can do a lot to improve a living space. Its a waste in a bedroom if you ask me, but enough people like it that you see it pretty often. xponent Remove The Walls, Let In More Light! Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
At 05:46 AM 11/27/2002 -0600 Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 10:48 PM 11/25/02 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: if you're south of the Mason-Dixon line, the War Between the States Wrong. It's called The War of Northern Aggression. In Boston, they call it The Rebellion - which is more accurate, IMHO. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BRIN-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof) on 28/11/02 12:29 am, Robert Seeberger at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, all lies are still evil. No honey, those pants don't make you look fat. I rest my case. But 'honey' was probably asking because she intends to go out in public and be seen by lots of people wearing *those* pants. Now what's evil? The results of telling the truth could be very evil.G xponent Has A Larger Ass Than His Fiance Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Kevin Tarr wrote: Some people are e-mailing from the future. Face it - Australia is the future - we leave you all behind (ignore NZ Fiji, everyone else does...) What are tonight's powerball numbers? I'll share. But how are you going to get my share forward in time to me? Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of William T Goodall Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:39 PM To: BRIN-L Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof) on 28/11/02 12:29 am, Robert Seeberger at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, all lies are still evil. No honey, those pants don't make you look fat. I rest my case. But 'honey' was probably asking because she intends to go out in public and be seen by lots of people wearing *those* pants. Now what's evil? ~~~ The ANSWER isn't evil, the QUESTION is evil!! :-) Jon BTW and seriously, My wife asks these same questions, but she knows she'll get an honest answer without sarcastic (or godforbid 'humorous') comments. If she's looking for anything but honesty, she doesn't ask, and therefore doesn't take it personally. (Maru) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be erad...
In a message dated 11/27/2002 8:18:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please explain how issuing a ruling stating simply that The US Consitution is silent on the matter of abortion, therfore this is an issue to be decided by Congress, or alternatively, the several States requires ignoring or rewriting the Constitution. I am most curious in anyone's answer to this question. The constitution was written two centuries ago. Abortion was not an issue then. Neither was telecommunications baseball anti-trust exemptions or most of what we will deal with in the early 21st century. But the constitution provides general rules about which part of goverment does which things and what kind of things can be legislated. So the supreme courts abortion ruling dealt with an unforeseen consequence of the constitution. The strength of the document is that it provides a balance between indiviudal and societal rights; between the roles of various aspects of government. As to your other statements about americans attitudes towards abortion. You said americans were against abortion and I challenged you on this. Your response was to list aspects of the abortion debate that different people find difficult to accept. These are complex issues (what are the rights of an underage pregnant women? Under what circumstances can second trimester abortions be performed? The debates about these questions are healthy and necessary since these are difficult ethical moral and legal questions. But concerns about some aspects of abortion does not imply rejection of all abortions ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Humor: Hu's on First
YVW :) A blurb about this e-mail was in Newsweek this week. For the past week, all anyone in a meeting in my office has had to say was Yes Sir. Yasser? and the place breaks up. :-) Jon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Reggie Bautista Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Humor: Hu's on First Jon wrote: Eccles posted this on Culture. I'm sure it's gonna offend *somebody* :-) Jon Playwright Jim Sherman wrote this after Hu Jintao was named chief of the Communist Party in China. HU'S ON FIRST By James Sherman (We take you now to the Oval Office.) George: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening? Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China. George: Great. Lay it on me. Condi: Hu is the new leader of China. George: That's what I want to know. Condi: That's what I'm telling you. George: That's what I'm asking you. Who is the new leader of China? Condi: Yes. George: I mean the fellow's name. Condi: Hu. George: The guy in China. Condi: Hu. George: [much snipped] This is *completely* politically incorrect... But I haven't laughed this much in a very long time! Thanks for sharing! Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:34:25 EST Subject: Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, for example, no matter what field you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, I'd be okay. Hey I am at Cornell, we don't want you right wing nut jobs. But we could still have dinner Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from rly-xb04.mx.aol.com (rly-xb04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.105]) by air-xb02.mail.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILINXB24-1126115950; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:59:50 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com ([206.204.15.162]) by rly-xb04.mx.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXB42-1126115941; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:59:41 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAQH0TV11471; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:00:29 -0800 Received: from web14609.mail.yahoo.com (web14609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.224.241]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id gAQH0MV11461 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from [157.191.2.17] by web14609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 PST Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: 022501c294e8$c2fd5120$1c58560c@micro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b2 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors David Brin and Gregory Benford. brin-l.mccmedia.com List-Post: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=subscribe List-Unsubscribe: http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=help Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam You're just in the wrong field . . . -- Ronn! :) True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, for example, no matter what field you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, I'd be okay. Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: Religion, the good side
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:03:38 EST Subject: Fwd: Religion, the good side To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 In a message dated 11/27/2002 1:12:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It isn't the golf that helps you solve the problem, it is the process of looking at the problem from a different angle. And there are more efficient ways to do that than golf. Now just a minute; i have had many creative ideas while playing golf. I have devised creative uses of my putter (the putter javalin throw was my idea). Did you know that a golf cart can do a 360 after a bad shot by simply hitting the breaks real hard when going down a steep hill at maximum speed? Oh yeah and thought f a way to use diffusion imaging to evaluate neurodegenerative diseases (well in fact my physicst thought of a solution to this problem after I posed it to him but I was thinking about him when hit my ball in the water for the forth time on the 9th hole) Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from rly-xh05.mail.aol.com (rly-xh05.mail.aol.com [172.20.115.234]) by air-xh05.mail.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILINXH54-1127011204; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:12:04 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com ([206.204.15.162]) by rly-xh05.mail.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXH59-1127011141; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:11:41 1900 Received: from www.mccmedia.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAR6CKV22243; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:12:20 -0800 Received: from txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (smtp2.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.230]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAR6CCV22233 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:12:13 -0800 Received: from neutron (cs2417566-129.houston.rr.com [24.175.66.129]) by txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id gAR6A0St023036 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:10:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: 03ab01c295dc$78dd2da0$[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]036801c295d2$0029b7c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Religion, the good side Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:16:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b2 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors David Brin and Gregory Benford. brin-l.mccmedia.com List-Post: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=subscribe List-Unsubscribe: http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=help Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:35 PM Subject: Re: Religion, the good side On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 11:01:09PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Good lord, an innovative technique, including coming up with a radically new design, building and testing hardware, all within a year? If they spent 6 hours per day working and it took two years, then yes, it is likely it could be done in one year if they spent 12 hours. Isn't that like saying if you can run a marathon in 2 hours and 15 minutes, you should be able to run 200 miles in 16 hours? I can't keep peak efficiency for creativity for more than an hour at most. I've lead a team under intense time pressure, implementing a design after the creative work was done. Yet, we couldn't work steady 12 hour days without causing more harm than good. But, the creative stuff requires me to do things like clean the kitchen, play golf, etc. in order to solve the problem. When I stop looking at the problem, the solution appears. And the solution probably would have appeared faster if you weren't doing those other things. There are lots of things you can do to change your viewpoint on a problem, talk to others about it, read books, make a list of all possible solutions that have worked in the past for related problems, check your journal of ideas that you keep, or any of another million ways that you can look up in various problem solving books. Very few creative people I know are list creators. Very few creative people I know go to problem solving books. That's good for solutions to mundane problems, not real creativity. The real trick for creativity is to not work consciously. Its to let the back of your mind do the work. So, part
Fwd: Religion, the good side
In a message dated 11/27/2002 1:14:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, I don't mean working on other things, unless those other things are occupying only a small part of your thinking (for example, thinking about the problem while driving down a long empty road would qualify as working, but not reading a book about something unrelated). Let me add my two cents. For me creativity is a start stop thing. I work on a paper or a peer review etc. I wokr for a while (one or two hours) but then I get stuck. At some point over the next day or two I will know the solution to my problem. With long projects this stop and start stuff reaches a critical mass and then I can plow through till the end no matter how many hours it takes. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Just a general question for the Fool, after hours of reading the volumes of discussion here: Posts you've made in the past suggest you have an almost rabid love for Free Speech. Doesn't your position on religion, et. al. strike you as even a little hypocritical? Or is it that free speech and being able to decide for oneself only applies to the things you agree with? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just a general question for the Fool, after hours of reading the volumes of discussion here: Posts you've made in the past suggest you have an almost rabid love for Free Speech. Doesn't your position on religion, et. al. strike you as even a little hypocritical? Or is it that free speech and being able to decide for oneself only applies to the things you agree with? A. Most religions try to restrict free speech. B. Most religions have various forms of 'thought crimes', Sins which are against free speech. C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy, Religion. D. Religion is not just another bad idea, it's a bad paradigm, a bad way of thinking, a bad way of life, a bad waste of time/money/effort/thought, a bad way to solve problems, a bad way to understand life/science/math/the universe, etc. E. I think religion is dangerous and irrational. F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. (That slavery meme again). G. Fermats last theorem wasn't solved by faith. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy, F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. And yet the title of this thread from the very beginning is religion is evil, why it must be eradicated. Seems to me that if you had your druthers, religion would be done away with, both for the Pat Robertsons and Bin Laden of the world and for the average person down the street that just likes God. If that is the case, than wouldn't you be forcing your view on them? I'm just trying to get where your coming from here, because it seems a bit contradictory. If you hate religion because it has though police, but you are willing to forbid others from following it, how can we take your positions on free speech seriously? You say you aren't preventing anyone from enslaving their minds to idiocy, but you're also saying their idiocy should be eliminated. Am I misreading you here? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
