Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 3:19 AM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > > Sanctimonious: "Making a show of being morally better than others." > > > > I'm not making a show of anything. Of course. Silly me. I should have recognized that you are doing nothing more than faithfully, er, reliably carrying the banner of Truth. With the pink unicorn logo in the corners. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> Of course you may know that a cyclical universe seems to be > out of > favor with cosmologists now because the latest evidence > points to the > density of "stuff" in the universe (matter + > energy + "dark matter" + > "dark energy") being less than the critical > density necessary to halt > the expansion, much less make everything fall back into a > "big > crunch." And while some Biblical literalists and > others may claim > otherwise, there are many scientists who do not believe > that there is > necessarily an essential conflict between the findings of > science and > belief in God in general or Christian belief in particular. > . . . ronn! :) if you're talking about those bloody creationist revisionist apologists, all i can say is no way!~) if you are talking about tomes like "the tao of physics", then maybe... as for : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death i can only hope some future quantum physicist will yet save the universe from the scourge of entropy!~) jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 05/08/2008, at 9:57 AM, Olin Elliott wrote: > Betrand Russell (I'm fairly sure it was him) used to call himself "A > Teacup Athiest". He said he couldn't prove, beyond any doubt, that > there wasn't a pink teacup orbiting the sun, but he didn't think > that meant that the likelihood of it existing was on equal footing > with its not existing. Twas a teapot. I had an amusing discussion the other night where I was talking about Teapotists, and as our knowledge of the solar system improves, the teapot orbits further and further out. Eventually, the teapot orbits a different star entirely... Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 05/08/2008, at 9:50 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism". as a devout atheist i > believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on > faith. i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs > when all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black > holes which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the > center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical > mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat > death of the universe starts all over, again. > jon Difference between belief and conviction. I don't "believe there's no god". I think on balance there probably isn't. God is in the same class as fairies, Santa, goblins, bigfoot, nessie, chi and reflexology. No faith required to not believe in them, as I don't really "believe" (even in Not God). Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On 5 Aug 2008, at 05:07, Nick Arnett wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >wrote: > >> >> >> I'm not sanctimonious like some people > > > And just how does that manage also to leave able to freely, so > freely and > urgently, share your views on religion. > > Sanctimonious: "Making a show of being morally better than others." > I'm not making a show of anything. Explanation Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 5 Aug 2008, at 07:36, Dave Land wrote: > On Aug 4, 2008, at 2:55 PM, William T Goodall wrote: > >> On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >>> i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be >>> less intolerant and antagonistic. >> >> And where does that get you? > > Well, for one thing, many people on this list find Jon's posts > pleasant > and courteous, even when they are challenging. Jon, like many others > here, consider IAAMOAC when they post. It's why personal attacks are > to > be avoided: they divide the community, rather than build it. > > Abrasive and monomaniacal posts are not pleasant and courteous, > whether > they come from someone defending or attacking religion. It's true that some of the religionists on this list can be very tiresome but I just cheerfully carry on countering their nonsense. Burdens Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Aug 4, 2008, at 2:55 PM, William T Goodall wrote: > On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >> i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be >> less intolerant and antagonistic. > > And where does that get you? Well, for one thing, many people on this list find Jon's posts pleasant and courteous, even when they are challenging. Jon, like many others here, consider IAAMOAC when they post. It's why personal attacks are to be avoided: they divide the community, rather than build it. Abrasive and monomaniacal posts are not pleasant and courteous, whether they come from someone defending or attacking religion. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > I'm not sanctimonious like some people And just how does that manage also to leave able to freely, so freely and urgently, share your views on religion. Sanctimonious: "Making a show of being morally better than others." Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Jon Louis Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > what is your morality system, william? > > > Me. > > William T Goodall > > so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, > benevolent, compassionate deity? Silly question. Everybody does THAT! It's often how I start my day. Nick "The first thing to know about God is that you aren't it" Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
At 06:50 PM Monday 8/4/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > > "By atheists" and "in the name of > > atheism" aren't the same thing. It's > > about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When > > beliefs get > > in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, > > Nazi > > Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the > > Balkan > > conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. > > "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a > > position of non-belief in > > gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of > > humanity seem to > > be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't > > believe in God, > > there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill > > the gap. In > > Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very > > similar in China. > > Charlie. > >i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism". as a devout atheist i >believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith. And that is pretty much what many Christians and others believe: that there is a God, even though they cannot prove it rigorously to the satisfaction of everybody, so they take it on faith. > i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when > all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes > which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center > of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so > that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of > the universe starts all over, again. >jon Of course you may know that a cyclical universe seems to be out of favor with cosmologists now because the latest evidence points to the density of "stuff" in the universe (matter + energy + "dark matter" + "dark energy") being less than the critical density necessary to halt the expansion, much less make everything fall back into a "big crunch." And while some Biblical literalists and others may claim otherwise, there are many scientists who do not believe that there is necessarily an essential conflict between the findings of science and belief in God in general or Christian belief in particular. . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
Betrand Russell (I'm fairly sure it was him) used to call himself "A Teacup Athiest". He said he couldn't prove, beyond any doubt, that there wasn't a pink teacup orbiting the sun, but he didn't think that meant that the likelihood of it existing was on equal footing with its not existing. I sometimes tell people I'm a tooth fairy agnostic (a phrase I stole, from Richard Dawkins I think). Basically, I can't prove to someone who really believes that the tooth fairy definitely doesn't exist. But it just doesn't seem very likely, does it? - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion<mailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:50 PM Subject: Religion kills > "By atheists" and "in the name of > atheism" aren't the same thing. It's > about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When > beliefs get > in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, > Nazi > Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the > Balkan > conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. > "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a > position of non-belief in > gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of > humanity seem to > be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't > believe in God, > there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill > the gap. In > Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very > similar in China. > Charlie. i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism". as a devout atheist i believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith. i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of the universe starts all over, again. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l<http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l> ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> "By atheists" and "in the name of > atheism" aren't the same thing. It's > about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When > beliefs get > in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, > Nazi > Germany, Spain under the Inquisition, Maoist China, and the > Balkan > conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. > "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a > position of non-belief in > gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of > humanity seem to > be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't > believe in God, > there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill > the gap. In > Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very > similar in China. > Charlie. i sit corrected, "in the name of atheism". as a devout atheist i believe there ain't no gawd, but i can't prove it, so i take it on faith. i believe the universe is cyclical and the big bang occurs when all the galaxies in the universe are sucked into super black holes which are then sucked into a super duper black hole at the center of this universe, which then explodes it reaches critical mass, so that the process of expansion, contraction and the heat death of the universe starts all over, again. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 05/08/2008, at 7:31 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > it is true much of religion is evil, and promotes lies and > superstition, but some good is also done in the name of religion. > more so in Judaism, and less so in Islam and Christianity. some of > the eastern religions are more mystical than supernatural. as for > morality, i have to agree with Alberto that some horrible deeds have > been committed by atheists. Tibet is being forcibly modernized and > brought into the 21st century, Buddhist monks are being slaughtered > in the myanmar, etc. i don't know which is the greatest evil, but i > agree with nick that there is room for compassion. i myself am > guilty of baby killing a couple times when i paid for abortions. i > have mixed feelings about that... "By atheists" and "in the name of atheism" aren't the same thing. It's about, as was mentioned a few posts back, ideology. When beliefs get in the way of reason. And in that sense, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Spain under the Inquistion, Maoist China, and the Balkan conflicts are all the same thing. It's ideology. "Atheism" is not an ideology, it's just a position of non-belief in gods. The one problem is that a large proportion of humanity seem to be wired for religion, so if one decides they don't believe in God, there's some room for other dangerous nonsense to fill the gap. In Russia, that was Marx-Leninism and Lysenkoism, and very similar in China. As you were. I'm about to hop on my bike and ride to work. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> > i actually agree with william about religion, except i > try to be less intolerant and antagonistic. > > jon > And where does that get you? > Appeasement Maru > William T Goodall sometimes i am able to engage in a civilized debate, not only on religion and politics, but almost any topic that is controversial. i try not to get emotional so the fanatics i am arguing with don't have a reason to hit me. usually they either give up and walk away when they realize they can't engage, or tell me they will pray for my eternal soul.~) some people are so dogmatic and irrational that they lose their temper anyway and i might just push their buttons out of sheer malicious mischief. if they are so determined to force their beliefs on me then i feel justified in baiting them a bit and forcing my non-belief on them.-} ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 05/08/2008, at 7:29 AM, Nick Lidster wrote: what is your morality system, william? >> >>> Me. >>> William T Goodall >> >> so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an >> omnipotent, >> benevolent, compassionate deity? >> jon >> > > A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon? Probably, but it was pretty funny. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
I wish I was going to World Con, but I'm not. (I have some political issues with Denver, but that's another story and not the reason I'm not going -- I just can't get away at the right time). Too bad you're leaving tomorrow though. Have fun at the convention, though. - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion<mailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:13 PM Subject: Religion kills > I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer > myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship > between society and religion. Personally, I am sick and > tried of hearing "atheistic" used as a synonym for > evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both > sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers > when surveys consistently show that the second largest > "religious affiliation" in the United States > (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who > consider themselves non-religious or secular. Where are our > candidates? Where are the politicians that speak for us? > Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than > Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions > combined -- but when was the last time you saw a > representative of atheists or agnostics included in some > politicians ecumenical service? And can you imagine any > candidate for national office in the US saying openly that > they don't believe in god? And yet, Christian groups > constantly present themselves as an oppressed > minority battling against the evils of secularism. I'm > very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their > faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything > was something to be proud of. The greatest sins in history > -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush > administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and > the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- > are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain > point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only > irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. Anything > that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some > of these -- is a liability, not a virtue. I'm tired of > people telling me that evolution is an "open > question" or that there is no real evidence to support > it. I'm tired of living in a country where, in the > first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at > least one -- Democrats don't have much > more courage here) where every single > candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in > evolution. Who cares? You might not believe in gravity > either, but step off a ten story building and see how much > good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that > I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context, > we would label delusional and maybe outright insane. (Last > year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle > died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it > to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was > the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all > the scientists attempts. We have to respect that because it > is their culture and their religion? It could just as > easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that > the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed > Jonah, or whatever. Its still insane thinking.) Finally, > I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian > country and that the Founding Fathers > were Christian heroes when I know > that most of them couldn't get elected today to save > their lives. They'd be further out on the fringe than > Dennis Kucinich. Thomas Jefferson was working on a version > of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or > the supernatural while living in the White House. The > founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of > the constitution because they intended to set up a secular > government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality. > Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can > understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot > of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all > try not to, I can understand how someone can become so > disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the > same brush. brilliant olin. i guess what taught me tolerance was when i fell in love with a christi
Religion kills
> I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer > myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship > between society and religion. Personally, I am sick and > tried of hearing "atheistic" used as a synonym for > evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both > sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers > when surveys consistently show that the second largest > "religious affiliation" in the United States > (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who > consider themselves non-religious or secular. Where are our > candidates? Where are the politicians that speak for us? > Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than > Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions > combined -- but when was the last time you saw a > representative of atheists or agnostics included in some > politicians ecumenical service? And can you imagine any > candidate for national office in the US saying openly that > they don't believe in god? And yet, Christian groups > constantly present themselves as an oppressed > minority battling against the evils of secularism. I'm > very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their > faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything > was something to be proud of. The greatest sins in history > -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush > administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and > the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- > are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain > point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only > irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. Anything > that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some > of these -- is a liability, not a virtue. I'm tired of > people telling me that evolution is an "open > question" or that there is no real evidence to support > it. I'm tired of living in a country where, in the > first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at > least one -- Democrats don't have much > more courage here) where every single > candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in > evolution. Who cares? You might not believe in gravity > either, but step off a ten story building and see how much > good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that > I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context, > we would label delusional and maybe outright insane. (Last > year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle > died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it > to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was > the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all > the scientists attempts. We have to respect that because it > is their culture and their religion? It could just as > easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that > the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed > Jonah, or whatever. Its still insane thinking.) Finally, > I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian > country and that the Founding Fathers > were Christian heroes when I know > that most of them couldn't get elected today to save > their lives. They'd be further out on the fringe than > Dennis Kucinich. Thomas Jefferson was working on a version > of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or > the supernatural while living in the White House. The > founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of > the constitution because they intended to set up a secular > government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality. > Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can > understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot > of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all > try not to, I can understand how someone can become so > disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the > same brush. brilliant olin. i guess what taught me tolerance was when i fell in love with a christian girl who exemplified the better side of her faith. i still harbor a lot of hatred toward the "moral majority", but i don't let them affect how i run for office. i have lost eight elections, but i will NEVER pander to religion. i have even made speeches denouncing corruption in church and state, and identified myself as a neo-marxist revisionist. i am in seattle right now visiting a friend who is waiting for a liver transplant. on wednesday, august 6th, i leave for world con. i would love to continue this discussion at denvention! jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be > less intolerant and antagonistic. And where does that get you? Appeasement Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, William T Goodall wrote: > I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my > compassion. Aand -- the first thing I think of when I read that is Matthew 6:1-18 or so ::headdesk:: Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> >>> what is your morality system, william? > >> Me. > >> William T Goodall > > so essentially you are putting yourself on the same > level as an > > omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? > No, because I actually exist :-) > Important distinction Maru > William T Goodall good answer!~) what did descartes say when asked if he believed in the existence of god? answer: i think not... and then... he disappeared... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> >> > what is your morality system, william? > >> Me. > >> William T Goodall > > so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same > level as an omnipotent, > > benevolent, compassionate deity? > > jon > A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon? > Nick you're right, nick. i was bein ironic, but probably came off as being more sardonic. i have to be careful not to be drawn into the fray, or even agitating it to some extent. i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be less intolerant and antagonistic. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:31, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > what do you call: >> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd >> expect from a >> supporter of baby-killing religion. >> Unmixed words Mari >> William T Goodall A diagnosis? Helpful Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> > your manner of personal attacks. i don't know > anything about you so > > i base my impression of you on what you say > on-line... > > Jon > I haven't attacked anyone. > William T Goodall what do you call: > That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd > expect from a > supporter of baby-killing religion. > Unmixed words Mari > William T Goodall it is true much of religion is evil, and promotes lies and superstition, but some good is also done in the name of religion. more so in Judaism, and less so in Islam and Christianity. some of the eastern religions are more mystical than supernatural. as for morality, i have to agree with Alberto that some horrible deeds have been committed by atheists. Tibet is being forcibly modernized and brought into the 21st century, Buddhist monks are being slaughtered in the myanmar, etc. i don't know which is the greatest evil, but i agree with nick that there is room for compassion. i myself am guilty of baby killing a couple times when i paid for abortions. i have mixed feelings about that... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
- Original Message - From: "Jon Louis Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:53 PM Subject: Religion kills >> > what is your morality system, william? > >> Me. >> William T Goodall > > so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, > benevolent, compassionate deity? > jon > A little bit of a reach to say that isn't Jon? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:23, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >>> what is your morality system, william? > >> Me. >> William T Goodall > > so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an > omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? No, because I actually exist :-) Important distinction Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:55, Olin Elliott wrote: [snip] Amen Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> > what is your morality system, william? > Me. > William T Goodall so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > > >> A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first >> pick a >> morality system by which to judge the others. >> Relativism Maru >> William T Goodall > > what is your morality system, william? Me. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Nick Arnett wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >wrote: > >> >> On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >>> i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? >> >> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. > > > I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked > religion, > it was the lack of compassion I saw in them. > > Seriously, William, what about compassion? Do you have or wish to > have any > compassion for the victims of this event? What do you think of > compassion > in general, outside of the context of religion? > > I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your > business and > you are welcome to them. I am curious what you think about > compassion, > however. Does it not apply in this situation? Ever? I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my compassion. And neither should you Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first > pick a > morality system by which to judge the others. > Relativism Maru > William T Goodall what is your morality system, william? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Alberto Monteiro wrote: > > Jon Louis Mann wrote: >> >>> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd >>> expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. >>> Unminced words Maru >>> William T Goodall >> >> lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending >> what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow >> brinlisters as "supporters of baby-killing religion", just because >> they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of >> those people who consider all jews to be baby killers? is it >> possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to >> practice peace, love and brotherhood? jon >> > William has a point here. > > There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that > babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject > of euthanasia. > > There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by > devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses > or to abandon baby girls. > > AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second > type of religion. > > Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see > which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less > protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would > be more human than most atheistic morality systems. A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first pick a morality system by which to judge the others. Relativism Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
> then why are you so angry? > jon >I'm not angry. What makes you think that? >Mildly irritated Maru I can't speak for William, but as a non-believer myself, I find a lot to be angry about in the relationship between society and religion. Personally, I am sick and tried of hearing "atheistic" used as a synonym for evil, I'm sick of hearing political candidates of both sides pander to a small minority of fundamentalist believers when surveys consistently show that the second largest "religious affiliation" in the United States (after the combined Christian denominations) are those who consider themselves non-religious or secular. Where are our candidates? Where are the politicians that speak for us? Secular voters, if organized, would be larger block than Jewish voters, or any of the other non-Christian religions combined -- but when was the last time you saw a representative of atheists or agnostics included in some politicians ecumenical service? And can you imagine any candidate for national office in the US saying openly that they don't believe in god? And yet, Chri stian groups constantly present themselves as an oppressed minority battling against the evils of secularism. I'm very very tired of hearing politicians talk about their faith -- as if unquestioning, unsupported belief in anything was something to be proud of. The greatest sins in history -- and certainly almost all the crimes of the Bush administration, from Guantanamo to the war on science and the deliberate suppression of global warming information -- are the crimes of men who believe so totally in a certain point of view that facts are not only unnecessary, not only irrelevant, but an evil that must be suppressed. Anything that we believe in unquestioningly -- and we all have some of these -- is a liability, not a virtue. I'm tired of people telling me that evolution is an "open question" or that there is no real evidence to support it. I'm tired of living in a country where, in the first decade of the 21st century we have a major party (at least one -- Democrats do n't have much more courage here) where every single candidate will openly avow that he doesn't believe in evolution. Who cares? You might not believe in gravity either, but step off a ten story building and see how much good your belief does you. I'm tired of being told that I have to be tolerant of beliefs that, in any other context, we would label delusional and maybe outright insane. (Last year an Orca whale trapped in Puget Sound here in Seattle died because scientists couldn't get close enough to it to rescue it, because local Indians were convinced it was the re-incarnation of their ancient Chief and blocked all the scientists attempts. We have to respect that because it is their culture and their religion? It could just as easily have been fundamentalist Christians convinced that the whale was an instrument of Satan, or that it once housed Jonah, or whatever. Its still insane thinking.) Finally, I'm tired of being told that America is a Christian country and th at the Founding Fathers were Christian heroes when I know that most of them couldn't get elected today to save their lives. They'd be further out on the fringe than Dennis Kucinich. Thomas Jefferson was working on a version of the Bible that eliminated all references to miracles or the supernatural while living in the White House. And the founding fathers deliberately left all mention of god out of the constitution because they intended to set up a secular government, founded on the idea of reason and rationality. Like I said, I can't speak for William, but I can understand how a non-believer can be very angry about a lot of things going on in the world, and though I hope we all try not to, I can understand how someone can become so disillusioned that they start to tar all believers with the same brush. From: William T Goodall<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion<mailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Religion kills On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >>> i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did >> religion do to you? >> jon > >> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. >> Best Defence Maru >> William T Goodall > > then why are you so angry? > jon I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk<http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/> Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/<http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/> "Those who can make you beli
Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > > i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? > > Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked religion, it was the lack of compassion I saw in them. Seriously, William, what about compassion? Do you have or wish to have any compassion for the victims of this event? What do you think of compassion in general, outside of the context of religion? I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your business and you are welcome to them. I am curious what you think about compassion, however. Does it not apply in this situation? Ever? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
Jon Louis Mann wrote: > >> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd >> expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. >> Unminced words Maru >> William T Goodall > > lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending > what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow > brinlisters as "supporters of baby-killing religion", just because > they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of > those people who consider all jews to be baby killers? is it > possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to > practice peace, love and brotherhood? jon > William has a point here. There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject of euthanasia. There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses or to abandon baby girls. AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second type of religion. Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would be more human than most atheistic morality systems. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:11, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >> I'm not angry. What makes you think that? >> Mildly irritated Maru >> William T Goodall > > your manner of personal attacks. i don't know anything about you so > i have to base my impression of you on what you say online... > jon I haven't attacked anyone. No smoking crater Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:09, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually > try to practice peace, love and brotherhood? It doesn't matter what they try - religion is intrinsically evil because it promotes lies and superstitious bullshit. The fact that some people are nicey-nicey and sugar-candy about it doesn't make a whit of difference to that. It may be worse than the transparently wicked forms of religion because they deceive more people that way. Gilded turd Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> I'm not angry. What makes you think that? > Mildly irritated Maru > William T Goodall your manner of personal attacks. i don't know anything about you so i have to base my impression of you on what you say online... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd > expect from a > supporter of baby-killing religion. > Unminced words Maru > William T Goodall lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow brinlisters as "supporters of baby-killing religion", just because they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of those people who consider all jews to be baby killers? is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to practice peace, love and brotherhood? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote: >>> i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did >> religion do to you? >> jon > >> Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. >> Best Defence Maru >> William T Goodall > > then why are you so angry? > jon I'm not angry. What makes you think that? Mildly irritated Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> >> calling William himself indecent has generally > not > >> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in > the past. > > "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the > action, not the person (v. saying > > "you are an indecent person"). I try to > always stay conscious of the > > distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. > I was trying to speak hypothetically and give examples and > counter-examples for each of you. I apologize for any lack > of clarity > on my part. > Mauro Diotallevi i thought the definintion of indecent was, "if it's in deep enough, it's in decent"!~) jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> > i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did > religion do to you? > jon > Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. > Best Defence Maru > William T Goodall then why are you so angry? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 17:35, Nick Arnett wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >> calling William himself indecent has generally not >> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. >> > > "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. > saying > "you are an indecent person"). I try to always stay conscious of the > distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. > That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion. Unminced words Maru "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish." - Albert Einstein -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way. Best Defence Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >> calling William himself indecent has generally not >> been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. >> > > "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying > "you are an indecent person"). I try to always stay conscious of the > distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. I was trying to speak hypothetically and give examples and counter-examples for each of you. I apologize for any lack of clarity on my part. -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Curtis Burisch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the > >WTC died from greed, since they were there to work. > > Isn't that the obvious conclusion?!!!??? Only if you include the phrase "Great Satan" in there somewhere. Nick > ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > calling William himself indecent has generally not > been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. > "indecent of you" *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v. saying "you are an indecent person"). I try to always stay conscious of the distinction... it is a compassionate one, I believe. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 1:02 PM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane > hypocrite. > Just jumping in to point out that personal attacks are generally not considered a good thing here, and to remind everyone to attack the topic, not the person who posted on the topic. And that certainly goes both ways. Attacking Nick's religious beliefs is one thing, but attacking Nick himself is not generally considered acceptable on this list, just as calling William's post indecent is probably ok, but calling William himself indecent has generally not been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past. Cooler Heads Maru -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion kills
>To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the >WTC died from greed, since they were there to work. Isn't that the obvious conclusion?!!!??? Curtis Blatant Troll Maru :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 11:02 AM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane > hypocrite. Even if -- no, especially if -- you consider religion to be weakness, surely you can find some empathy for people who have been killed and injured, had to bury their family members, no matter what the cause? I wrote my first response to you while sitting with my wife in an emergency room, where we were worried that she's got something wrong with her heart. We had been up most of the night and I'd heard the story out of India on the radio while driving back to the hospital after catching a couple of hours sleep. And as I heard the story, I thought of you immediately, William, and wondered if you would be able to respond first to the grief and tragedy before making your usual response. And I thought, no matter why those people where there, it is clear that what panicked them was fear of a landslide or avalanche. To me, what you have said is like saying that those killed on 9/11 in the WTC died from greed, since they were there to work. Where is your compassion? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
> The hadj is another abominable superstition that kills > people. During the 2006 Hajj 362 pilgrims died. > If it weren't for superstitious religious nonsense they > wouldn't have > been there in the first place. And fatal stampedes happen > several > times every year at religious events so ignorance isn't > an excuse. > William T Goodall i don't dispute any of that william. my point was that plane crashes, ships at sea,and rock concerts, etc. also cause panic and death. much of it IS due to ignorance, and the kind of miserable conditions that cause people to place their faith in redemption or some other nonsense that gives them hope. you can't blame everything in the world on religious fanaticism. religion feeds off people's hatred and fear of the other. another reason why these beliefs are so wide spread is greed. that is what you should be ranting about. i hate religion as much as you, if not more, but you need to stop blaming the victims and find other, more effective ways to criticize the institution. you need to be pragmatic, nt dogmatic; otherwise you are the same as those you attack. i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 3 Aug 2008, at 20:21, Jon Louis Mann wrote: > Nick Arnett wrote: > >>> Children dead, not even cremated yet... And you're >> already blaming >>> religion for something caused by fear of an avalanche! >> Indecent of >>> you, really. Would it be okay if it had been a food >> line? At least you >>> could give people a chance to grieve a little before >> blaming. That >>> would be slightly humane. > >> I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you >> inhumane >> hypocrite. >> Monstrous Evil Maru > > hold on, i hate religion as much as anyone, but this was panic. it > happens on the hadj, The hajj is another abominable superstition that kills people. During the 2006 Hajj 362 pilgrims died. > plane crashes, ships at sea, and rock concerts. as religions go, > hinduism is not as evil as some others. > jon > >> There have been at least three fatal stampedes in the country so far >> during 2008, although the numbers killed were far smaller than in the >> latest incident." If it weren't for superstitious religious nonsense they wouldn't have been there in the first place. And fatal stampedes happen several times every year at religious events so ignorance isn't an excuse. Culpable Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
Nick Arnett wrote: > > Children dead, not even cremated yet... And you're > already blaming > > religion for something caused by fear of an avalanche! > Indecent of > > you, really. Would it be okay if it had been a food > line? At least you > > could give people a chance to grieve a little before > blaming. That > > would be slightly humane. > I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you > inhumane > hypocrite. > Monstrous Evil Maru hold on, i hate religion as much as anyone, but this was panic. it happens on the hadj, plane crashes, ships at sea, and rock concerts. as religions go, hinduism is not as evil as some others. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
On 3 Aug 2008, at 18:55, Nick Arnett wrote: > Children dead, not even cremated yet... And you're already blaming > religion for something caused by fear of an avalanche! Indecent of > you, really. Would it be okay if it had been a food line? At least you > could give people a chance to grieve a little before blaming. That > would be slightly humane. > I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane hypocrite. Monstrous Evil Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Debunking bullshit is a thankless task. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion kills
Children dead, not even cremated yet... And you're already blaming religion for something caused by fear of an avalanche! Indecent of you, really. Would it be okay if it had been a food line? At least you could give people a chance to grieve a little before blaming. That would be slightly humane. On 8/3/08, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7539509.stm > > "India temple stampede 'kills 140' > A stampede at a hilltop temple in northern India has killed at least > 140 people, police say. > > The stampede happened at the Nainadevi temple in the Bilsapur district > of Himachal Pradesh state, during a nine-day Hindu religious festival. > > Police said the victims included 40 children. Fifty more people were > hurt and have been taken to hospital. > > The Nainadevi temple is about 160km (100 miles) from the Himalayan > hill town of Shimla. > > Most of the worshippers are believed to be from the neighbouring state > of Punjab. > > Crowds had gathered at the temple to celebrate the festival of Shravan > Navratras, which began on Saturday and runs until 11 August. > > At least 50,000 people were expected to attend the festivities, says > the BBC's Damian Grammaticas in Delhi. > > > Hindu worshippers were climbing up a 4-km (2.5-mile) trail leading to > a hill-top temple, chanting and singing hymns, when the stampede > happened. > > Our correspondent says a rain shelter beside the narrow mountain > collapsed during poor weather conditions, causing widespread panic > amid fears of a landslide. > > Hundreds were then crushed together in a tiny space where they were > unable to breathe. > > Children lost their grip on their mothers' hands and were crushed > under the feet of scared pilgrims attempting to leap over broken > railings to save themselves, witnesses said. > > Television footage showed the narrow path strewn with torn clothes and > bags with flowers and offerings. > > Survivors gathered at nearby hospitals looking for injured relatives. > The chief minister of Himachal Pradesh is said to have offered > compensation to those injured in the stampede, and to the families of > those killed. > > Indian temples are regularly hit by stampedes, as huge crowds of Hindu > devotees flock to make offerings at festival times. > > There have been at least three fatal stampedes in the country so far > during 2008, although the numbers killed were far smaller than in the > latest incident." > > Dangerous Addiction Maru > -- > William T Goodall > Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk > Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ > > "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit > atrocities." ~Voltaire. > > ___ > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l > ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion kills
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7539509.stm "India temple stampede 'kills 140' A stampede at a hilltop temple in northern India has killed at least 140 people, police say. The stampede happened at the Nainadevi temple in the Bilsapur district of Himachal Pradesh state, during a nine-day Hindu religious festival. Police said the victims included 40 children. Fifty more people were hurt and have been taken to hospital. The Nainadevi temple is about 160km (100 miles) from the Himalayan hill town of Shimla. Most of the worshippers are believed to be from the neighbouring state of Punjab. Crowds had gathered at the temple to celebrate the festival of Shravan Navratras, which began on Saturday and runs until 11 August. At least 50,000 people were expected to attend the festivities, says the BBC's Damian Grammaticas in Delhi. Hindu worshippers were climbing up a 4-km (2.5-mile) trail leading to a hill-top temple, chanting and singing hymns, when the stampede happened. Our correspondent says a rain shelter beside the narrow mountain collapsed during poor weather conditions, causing widespread panic amid fears of a landslide. Hundreds were then crushed together in a tiny space where they were unable to breathe. Children lost their grip on their mothers' hands and were crushed under the feet of scared pilgrims attempting to leap over broken railings to save themselves, witnesses said. Television footage showed the narrow path strewn with torn clothes and bags with flowers and offerings. Survivors gathered at nearby hospitals looking for injured relatives. The chief minister of Himachal Pradesh is said to have offered compensation to those injured in the stampede, and to the families of those killed. Indian temples are regularly hit by stampedes, as huge crowds of Hindu devotees flock to make offerings at festival times. There have been at least three fatal stampedes in the country so far during 2008, although the numbers killed were far smaller than in the latest incident." Dangerous Addiction Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
