date:20230131

On 1/31/23 20:16, Ali via cctalk wrote:

> If I remember Spinrite would read and write each sector back in Level I or
> II and gave you a constant update I still have a license from long
> ago I think the last version came out in early 2000s...

If you look at the specs for SSDs or any flash medium for that matter,
they're rated in terms of *write* cycles, which is why you don't want to
abuse that.

However, it may well be that writing is the only way to refresh cells,
as reading won't, if I understand flash operation correctly.  But
rewriting a sector or block of a file doesn't usually write back to the
original, because of the write-leveling firmware in the drive.

JEDEC requires data retention of a consumer drive for at least 1 year,
which doesn't sound like much; real retention is probably much longer.

You can write a script that write-refreshes every file on the drive.

The easiest thing is to buy a second drive and ping-pong the data
between them periodically.   That way, if one fails, you still have the
other for backup.

FWIW,
Chuck

[cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 11:50 PM Ali via cctalk  wrote:
>
> > (~$300), monitor (CGA had compoosite output, so could connect to cheap
> > CCTV, etc. monitors, and CGA even had a dedicated 4 pin Berg for the
> > SupRMod RF adapter),  and maybe serial, and/or parallel.
>
> Fred,
>
> This is the first time I am hearing about this. I always thought the 
> connector was for light pen input.

No, that's the  6 pin Berg alongside it.

IIRC the MDA card had the light pen connector too, but it was never
documented or supported as the long persistence of the 5151 monitor
meant that a light pen wouldn't work with it.

-tony

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Sellam Abraham via cctalk

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 6:22 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I just checked and I can still read without error some 8" disks that I
> wrote, what, 45 years ago.  They were FM 3740-type format and good
> quality, so there's that.
>

In all my days of doing data conversion professionally (throughout the
2000-aughts), it was rare that I got an 8" disk that had any problems
reading.  Or any other format for that matter.  Magnetic media in my
experience seems to hold up well if stored properly.

> Which is why I wasn't joking about using 9 track 1/2" tape.   Many
> millions of reels of the stuff were in use right up into the 1980s.
> The drives are not unobtanium and the medium is pretty rugged. Had I
> used 7-track tape, I would still not be out of luck, but only because I
> have a 7 track drive, which is far less common these days.

I rarely had any issues reading 9-track tapes either.

I believe I might still have a 7-track drive.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

> If you just need READ, and not WRITE, howzbout COPY *.* NUL
> actually
> XCOPY *.* NUL /S/E
> to include subdirectories

But would a red suffice to refresh or do you need to also write?

Also, this solution, and Chuck's, while workable for reads would leave you
with a blank screen for a long time (e.g. xcopying to NUL a 512GB or bigger
SSD). 

If I remember Spinrite would read and write each sector back in Level I or
II and gave you a constant update I still have a license from long
ago I think the last version came out in early 2000s...

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

On 1/31/23 18:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> Hmmm.. I wonder if there is a program akin to Spinrite that will do
>> that on SSDs (i.e. reread and rewrite every byte). I know Steve Gibson
>> is working on a new version of Spinrite that will work with SSDs so
>> that could be the solution when it comes out...
> 
> If you just need READ, and not WRITE, howzbout COPY *.* NUL
> actually
> XCOPY *.* NUL /S/E
> to include subdirectories

On Linux, that would be:

cp -r / /dev/null

I think that you really don't want to rewrite SSDs.  As I understand the
wear-leveling technology, it's unlikely that you'll write the same
sector/block that you read.   Basically Heraclitus and rivers.

--CHuck

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man


On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Hmmm.. I wonder if there is a program akin to Spinrite that will do that 
on SSDs (i.e. reread and rewrite every byte). I know Steve Gibson is 
working on a new version of Spinrite that will work with SSDs so that 
could be the solution when it comes out...


If you just need READ, and not WRITE, howzbout COPY *.* NUL
actually
XCOPY *.* NUL /S/E
to include subdirectories

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

I just checked and I can still read without error some 8" disks that I
wrote, what, 45 years ago.  They were FM 3740-type format and good
quality, so there's that.

As to the value of the 8080 code that I wrote, not so much.

This was only possible because I wrote the disks in a commonly-used
format on a relatively common medium.  Had I opted to use Memorex 651
media, it might well be gone forever.   I haven't seen a 651 drive in years.

Which is why I wasn't joking about using 9 track 1/2" tape.   Many
millions of reels of the stuff were in use right up into the 1980s.
The drives are not unobtanium and the medium is pretty rugged. Had I
used 7-track tape, I would still not be out of luck, but only because I
have a 7 track drive, which is far less common these days.

Just some food for thought.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man



>It depends on the drive's firmware. Some do background scans of blocks while 
>idle. Others do not. Since you >have no way of knowing which is which (or even 
>when the backgroundscan is done), the safest way to force a >scan is to read 
>the whole drive... any blocks whose raw error count is too high will be 
>rewritten to fresh >blocks. If it's a good SSD you'll likely not notice this 
>happening.  If it's a crappy thumb drive... you may >be better off copying to 
>some other media..


Hmmm.. I wonder if there is a program akin to Spinrite that will do that on 
SSDs (i.e. reread and rewrite every byte). I know Steve Gibson is working on a 
new version of Spinrite that will work with SSDs so that could be the solution 
when it comes out...

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:44 PM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jan 31, 2023, at 8:38 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 5:03 PM Ali via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> >>> I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years
> >>> until
> >>> the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent
> >>> quality optical or pro magnetic media?
> >>>
> >>> You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe.
> >>
> >> Does REFRESHING mean reread and rewrite or just keep power to it? If
> it's
> >> the latter it should be trivial to setup a system with backup battery
> just
> >> to supply voltage to a bunch of SSD drives.
> >>
> >
> > It depends on the drive's firmware. Some do background scans of blocks
> > while idle. Others do not. Since you have no way of knowing which is
> which
> > (or even when the backgroundscan is done), the safest way to force a scan
> > is to read the whole drive... any blocks whose raw error count is too
> high
> > will be rewritten to fresh blocks. If it's a good SSD you'll likely not
> > notice this happening.  If it's a crappy thumb drive... you may be better
> > off copying to some other media..
> >
> > Warner
>
> Do you know what the likely answer is for "memory sticks", SD or MicroSD
> cards, things like that?  I assume their firmware is tiny, so are they
> likely to need active refreshing?
>

They are on the "copy it every so often" end of things. Especially if they
were slow when released.

Warner

>

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk




> On Jan 31, 2023, at 8:38 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 5:03 PM Ali via cctalk  wrote:
> 
>>> I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years
>>> until
>>> the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent
>>> quality optical or pro magnetic media?
>>> 
>>> You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe.
>> 
>> Does REFRESHING mean reread and rewrite or just keep power to it? If it's
>> the latter it should be trivial to setup a system with backup battery just
>> to supply voltage to a bunch of SSD drives.
>> 
> 
> It depends on the drive's firmware. Some do background scans of blocks
> while idle. Others do not. Since you have no way of knowing which is which
> (or even when the backgroundscan is done), the safest way to force a scan
> is to read the whole drive... any blocks whose raw error count is too high
> will be rewritten to fresh blocks. If it's a good SSD you'll likely not
> notice this happening.  If it's a crappy thumb drive... you may be better
> off copying to some other media..
> 
> Warner

Do you know what the likely answer is for "memory sticks", SD or MicroSD cards, 
things like that?  I assume their firmware is tiny, so are they likely to need 
active refreshing?

paul

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 5:03 PM Ali via cctalk  wrote:

> > I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years
> > until
> > the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent
> > quality optical or pro magnetic media?
> >
> > You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe.
>
> Does REFRESHING mean reread and rewrite or just keep power to it? If it's
> the latter it should be trivial to setup a system with backup battery just
> to supply voltage to a bunch of SSD drives.
>

It depends on the drive's firmware. Some do background scans of blocks
while idle. Others do not. Since you have no way of knowing which is which
(or even when the backgroundscan is done), the safest way to force a scan
is to read the whole drive... any blocks whose raw error count is too high
will be rewritten to fresh blocks. If it's a good SSD you'll likely not
notice this happening.  If it's a crappy thumb drive... you may be better
off copying to some other media..

Warner

-Ali
>
>

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy


On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:

This is not the forum to ask MS Windows questions.


while I agree in priciple,
the problem with pin 34 being expected to be "Disk Change" surfaced about 
35 years ago, when IBM, on the AT, repurposed the "Drive Ready" signal,

[cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp


The 4 pin RF modulator conector is the same as what is on the Apple2




On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ali wrote:


(~$300), monitor (CGA had compoosite output, so could connect to cheap
CCTV, etc. monitors, and CGA even had a dedicated 4 pin Berg for the
SupRMod RF adapter),  and maybe serial, and/or parallel.


Fred,

This is the first time I am hearing about this. I always thought the connector 
was for light pen input.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp

(~$300), monitor (CGA had compoosite output, so could connect to cheap
CCTV, etc. monitors, and CGA even had a dedicated 4 pin Berg for the
SupRMod RF adapter), and maybe serial, and/or parallel.

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ali wrote:

Fred,
This is the first time I am hearing about this. I always thought the connector
was for light pen input.

CGA had a DE-9 for video, (warning: incompatible with the DE9 MDP
connector, and incompatible with the bus mouse DE9)

plus an RCA for composite video,

plus a 4 pin Berg with composite video and power for an RF-modulator.
SupRMod was simply one of the most common after-market RF modulators that
used that 4 pin Berg.

1 12 volts
2 key
3 composite video
4 ground

(I am not sure whether "Berg" is the correct term for those connectors)

plus a 6 pin Berg for light pen,
1 light pen input
2 key
3 light pen switch
4 ground
5 5 volts
6 12 volts

IBM's manual for it: (with schematics)
https://minuszerodegrees.net/oa/OA%20-%20IBM%20Color%20Graphics%20Monitor%20Adapter%20(CGA).pdf

As far as I know, IBM did not offer an RF modulator nor a light pen.
after market was available.

The phosphor of the IBM monochrome monitor was too long a persistance for
light pen.

Compaq CGA and EGA boards ALSO had a mid-board 10 pin dual-row connector
for connecting to the Compaq portable internal monitor (12 pin but keyed)

EGA-Wonder had an add-on board for Compaq compatability.
Compaq boards were recognizable by the additional 90 degree bend at the
top of the board bracket, by a cutout in the bracket for access to the 4
pin Berg composite, and the connector for the internal monitor

https://oldcrap.org/2020/10/08/compaq-portable/

(I am not sure whether "Berg" is the correct term for those connectors)

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

> I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years
> until
> the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent
> quality optical or pro magnetic media?
> 
> You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe.

Does REFRESHING mean reread and rewrite or just keep power to it? If it's
the latter it should be trivial to setup a system with backup battery just
to supply voltage to a bunch of SSD drives.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy

2023-01-31 Thread Mike Loewen via cctalk


On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote:


On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 3:39 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk 
wrote:


This is not the forum to ask MS Windows questions.



Chris.  Can I ask you stop and consider if you really need to post/reply.
Not every thought that enters ones head needs to be translated into a list
posting   It feels like a stream of consciousness sometimes.


   I second the motion.

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 06:28:55 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
 wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote:
> why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so
> that it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the
> previous disk that's been removed.

WHICH version of Windoze?
What specific kinds, sizes, brands, and models, of drives?

Some drives have a "disk changed" signal; some have "Drive Ready"

In CP/M, whenever you changed disks, you were 'sposed to press Ctrl-C to
tell the OS that you had done so, so that it knew not to believe the
buffer contents.
That was still implemented in early versions of MS/PC-DOS.

C: so some of my measages are getting to the list. thia is hratifying.

Win2K Advanced Server. Generic Athlon XP 2600+ box.

Happena with 2 very different drives. I habe other srives, but this is a 
windows issue. I can feel it in my bones.

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy

2023-01-31 Thread Tom Hunter via cctalk

Try supp...@microsoft.com

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, 7:21 am Chris via cctalk,  wrote:

> why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so that
> it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the previous disk
> that's been removed.
>

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy

2023-01-31 Thread Tony Jones via cctalk

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 3:39 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk 
wrote:

> This is not the forum to ask MS Windows questions.
>

Chris.  Can I ask you stop and consider if you really need to post/reply.
 Not every thought that enters ones head needs to be translated into a list
posting   It feels like a stream of consciousness sometimes.

[cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp

> (~$300), monitor (CGA had compoosite output, so could connect to cheap
> CCTV, etc. monitors, and CGA even had a dedicated 4 pin Berg for the
> SupRMod RF adapter),  and maybe serial, and/or parallel.

Fred,

This is the first time I am hearing about this. I always thought the connector 
was for light pen input.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy

2023-01-31 Thread Tom Hunter via cctalk

This is not the forum to ask MS Windows questions.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, 7:21 am Chris via cctalk,  wrote:

> why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so that
> it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the previous disk
> that's been removed.
>

[cctalk] Re: windows reports contents of previous floppy


On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote:
why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so 
that it tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the 
previous disk that's been removed.


WHICH version of Windoze?
What specific kinds, sizes, brands, and models, of drives?


Some drives have a "disk changed" signal; some have "Drive Ready"


In CP/M, whenever you changed disks, you were 'sposed to press Ctrl-C to 
tell the OS that you had done so, so that it knew not to believe the 
buffer contents.

That was still implemented in early versions of MS/PC-DOS.

[cctalk] windows reports contents of previous floppy

why does this happen? how do I "reset" a floppy drive (in windows) so that it 
tells me what's on the current disk, not what was on the previous disk that's 
been removed.

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk




> On Jan 31, 2023, at 2:19 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2023, at 5:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
>>> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
>>> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
>>> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
>>> casing?)
>> 
>> Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference.  The as I said 
>> recently, all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I’ve tried to recovered have been 
>> fine.  The main data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another 
>> manufacturer.
>> 
>> I’m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc’s.
>> 
>> As part of my recent efforts I’ve regained access to data that while live on 
>> spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999.
>> 
>> Zane
> 
> I don't remember if RW (erasable) DVDs exist, or if that is only offered for 
> CD blanks.  As I understand it, the RW technology has nowhere the longevity 
> of the write-once kind.  Makes sense since those are reversible, which 
> suggests that the reversing might happen gradually in storage, similar to the 
> way that NVRAM (flash memory) gradually fades which OTP ROMs tend to last 
> forever unless they have a process defect.
> 
>   Paul

I was quite frankly amazed that I was able to recover data from Memorex CD-RW 
disks.

I don’t remember if I’ve run across any DVD-RW disks in my efforts (they do 
exist).

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk

> On Jan 31, 2023, at 5:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk  
> wrote:
>> 
>> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
>> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
>> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
>> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
>> casing?)
> 
> Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference.  The as I said 
> recently, all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I’ve tried to recovered have been 
> fine.  The main data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another 
> manufacturer.
> 
> I’m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc’s.
> 
> As part of my recent efforts I’ve regained access to data that while live on 
> spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999.
> 
> Zane

I don't remember if RW (erasable) DVDs exist, or if that is only offered for CD 
blanks.  As I understand it, the RW technology has nowhere the longevity of the 
write-once kind.  Makes sense since those are reversible, which suggests that 
the reversing might happen gradually in storage, similar to the way that NVRAM 
(flash memory) gradually fades which OTP ROMs tend to last forever unless they 
have a process defect.

paul

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk

On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Half-inch open-reel 9 track tape seems to withstand the test of time as
> well as anything.
> 
> The problem with the high-capacity tape used for server backup will be
> finding drives and controllers compatible with it in years to come.  I
> don't know how many people, for example, squirrel away LTO drives of
> various types, but you're not going to read that LTO-2 tape on your
> LTO-9 drive.  Then there's the matter of finding the apppropriate
> controller.
> 
> 8mm and DDS drives are starting to become uncommon.  And we all know the
> fate of QIC/Travan tapes.
> 
> The rule seems to be that if you want to hang onto something, keep
> migrating it to newer storage.
> 
> --Chuck

When using tape as an archive medium, you must include a plan for refreshing 
those tapes.  When creating an archive solution, it’s important that the 
refresh of the media is an automated process that doesn’t require headcount.

Having a system in place for tracking where all your archive media is, and what 
it is, is equally important.  Case in point, I’ve spent the last 3 weekends 
trying to find some boxes of floppies.  I found “them” on Sunday, only to find 
that they are apparently no longer in one of the boxes, and that box must be 
one of the others I’ve found, and it’s been reused.  

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk

On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
> casing?)

Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference.  The as I said recently, 
all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I’ve tried to recovered have been fine.  The main 
data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another manufacturer.

I’m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc’s.

As part of my recent efforts I’ve regained access to data that while live on 
spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999.

Zane

[cctalk] Framework vs. Symphony

I've used neither. I have FWII here. Going to attempt to read the floppies (it 
was sealed when I got my hands on it). Which do you prefer.

[cctalk] Re: PKBACK Floppies?

2023-01-31 Thread David Glover-Aoki via cctalk

On Jan 29, 2023, at 9:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Some of the floppies I’m recovering data look to be either a multi-part ZIP 
> file, or something.  Was this a separate product from PKZIP?  I’m not sure if 
> I have a copy of PKZIP in the stuff I’ve recovered thus far.  I’ve not pulled 
> them into DOSBOX to try and restore them, so far I’ve just tried to use 
> Stuffit-Expander.   Part of the problem is every file has the same name, just 
> on different floppies.

Info-ZIP still supports "split" archives, and spanned archives can be converted 
to split archives by renaming them to the appropriate extension. From the man 
page:

zip version 3.0 and later can create split archives.  A split archive is a 
standard zip archive split over multiple files.  (Note that split archives are 
not just archives split in to pieces, as the offsets of entries are now based 
on the start of each split.  Concatenating the pieces together will invalidate 
these offsets, but unzip can usually deal with it.  zip will usually refuse to 
process such a spliced archive unless the -FF fix option is used to fix the 
offsets.)

One use of split archives is storing a large archive on multiple removable 
media.  For a split archive with 20 split files the files are typically named 
(replace ARCHIVE with the name of your archive) ARCHIVE.z01, ARCHIVE.z02, ..., 
ARCHIVE.z19, ARCHIVE.zip. Note that the last file is the .zip file.  In 
contrast, spanned archives are the original multi-disk archive generally 
requiring floppy disks and using volume labels to store disk numbers.  zip 
supports split archives but not spanned archives, though a procedure exists for 
converting split archives of the right size to spanned archives.  The reverse 
is also true, where each file of a spanned archive can be copied in order to 
files with the above names to create a split archive.

A split archive with missing split files can be fixed using -F if you have the 
last split of the archive (the .zip file).  If this file is missing, you must 
use -FF to fix the archive, which will prompt you for the splits you have.

David.

[cctalk] Re: Miscellaneous UCSD Pascal stuff I've found

2023-01-31 Thread David Barto via cctalk

These items have all been claimed.

David

> On Jan 31, 2023, at 12:57 PM, grif...@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Does the post office still have a book rate?
> 
> On Jan 31, 2023 10:12, David Barto via cctalk  wrote:
> This is all on paper and weighs a fair bit.

> Located in San Diego area, so pickup would be best.

> I’m willing to ship it for 50% of the shipping cost.

> 
> All classic computer related:

> 
> UCSD Pascal pSystem listing from UCSD Pascal II.0 along with notes about what 
> BIOS failures look like.

> Listing of a pascal_interpreter, written in Pascal (of course)

> 
> Tech Notes and Books:

> 
> Tech Notes:

> Booting the CP/M Adaptable System on the IMS8000

> SofTech MicroSystems Errata sheet for the FORTRAN Manual

> UCSD Pascal System Synchronous Input/Output Subsystem Implementation Guide 
> (II.1, Preliminary) Date 10 April 79

> SofTech MicroSystems Marketing Department memo on Version IV compatiblity 
> with Preceding Versions

> SofTech MicroSystems Adaptable System Tech Note (TN #2)

> 
> Books:

> UCSD Pascal Version I.5 September 1978

> UCSD Pascal Version II.0 March 1979

> SofTech MicroSystems Micro News Vol I, No. 3 May 1980

> SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Pascal II.0 Users Manual Feb 1980

> SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Fortran User Reference Manual May 1980

> Practical Pascal Programs By Greg Davidson

> 
> David

> 
> 
>

[cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage

2023-01-31 Thread Cameron Kaiser via cctalk

>> I think (I might have mentioned it at the thread start) it was part of a
>> plan for a school network.  Tandy offered a similar setup for schools
>> for the Model 1/3/4 systems, where the "host" could send programs, and
>> the clients would load from the common host system.
> IIRC there was the Network 1 which was 500 baud M1/3/4 only,  and the
> Network 2 which was very similar but could also handle 1500 baud M3/4
> and Coco (and M100?). These used the casstte ports and allowed the
> host machine to 'broadcast' a file (program) to all the student
> stations or load a file from one student station at a time back to the
> host.

I worked with an elementary school teacher who used exactly such a system to
ship software from a CoCo 3 with a floppy drive to diskless CoCo 2s. You turned
the dial to each client in turn and ran CLOAD on the client, and it pulled it
over the cassette port. No automatic push, but I think he had only around 15
computers or so, so it didn't take long to load software. My math fractions
trainer I wrote in CoCo BASIC was in use there for a number of years.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce

[cctalk] Re: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle

2023-01-31 Thread ben via cctalk


On 2023-01-31 12:39 p.m., Chris via cctalk wrote:

  On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 02:02:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
 wrote:




Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I
have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible
calculations" for the placement of the stones.)


the chief, put that stone there.
The druid, put that stone  here.
The Workers, "OK,Lunch Break", the stone stays where it is.

Stonehenge Decoded, (1964) answered all my questions.
Just like the Pyramids, all talk and no work.
Nova (PBS) explored both, and we now have New but very tiny
Pyramid, and Stonehenge a new stone.
Ben.

[cctalk] Re: OT: Ancient Astronomers Was: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum


addendum:
The solstice sticks are not due to observation and planning.
Just needed a little shade when watching the sunset from my hammock.


Building anothe sundial.
I found some garden gnome, and one with a pointy head that can cast a 
shadow.

But, he's kinda Jamaican.
So, I make a sign that says, "Gnomes?? No mon, We're gnomen"

[cctalk] OT: Ancient Astronomers Was: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum


Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I
have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible
calculations" for the placement of the stones.)


On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote:

C: I'm all ears.
I myself had arrived at a plausible explanation for crop circles. Apart 
from creation by humans or any other species. I was told "they" were 
proven to be fraudulent though. I don't know.


OK
I stick a stick in the ground, to mark the direction that the sun sets.
(I now use a notch in the top of my fence)
But, eventually, it's not lined up with sunset any more.  It has moved!
So, I stick a new stick in.  But, it happens again.
I end up with lots of sticks.  Moving along.
Eventually, it stops moving in that direction, and starts back the other 
way!
I have a row of sticks.  I pull out some, but leave the end-points, 
because those are the extremes of the directions.


Belafon (a Druid computer consultant (Terry Pratchett)) has a great deal 
on some vintage used rocks. So, I buy a few, and have him put them where 
my sticks are.  Not sure yet how he moves them.  Maybe by spinning them 
around in a crop circle first?


Similarly sticks and rocks for phases of the moon.  But, the full cycle 
isn't an integer.  Sometimes it's 29 days, sometimes 30.  So. I make one 
circle of 29 rocks, and another of 30.


Hmmm. why did I have another circle of 56?


Inventing Sundial
I notice that one star ("Polaris") stays still, while the others move.
I stick a stick in the ground, pointing at it.

During the day, I notice that its shadow is in different places, and
When lunch arrives, I notice where the shadow is.
MAYBE I get the idea that I could use that.
The next day, when the shadow is at the pebble, I am ready for lunch on 
time.


For other times of day, I don't calculate positions, with multiple 
sine waves, and using Anna's lemon tree, etc.


I watch the time on my cellphone, and at 5:00, I put a pebble where the 
shadow is.


Eventually, I notice that it is inaccurate at other times of the year, so 
I have one set of pebbles for winter solstice, one for summer solstice, and 
some in between, such as the equinox.



And THAT is how you can become a "brilliant, obviously great at math, 
ancient astronomer" without having a clue.



I try archery.  I can't hit the side of a barn.  But, one day, I finally 
hit the barn!  I'm so proud of that, that I leave the arrow in and draw 
concentric circles around it to highlight where it is.   My neighbor says, 
"Did you really shoot that arrow?"

"Sure did"
"Wow!  You hit the exact center of the circles!"
And, that is how you get a reputation as a great marksman.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle

 On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 02:02:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
 wrote:


Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I
have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible
calculations" for the placement of the stones.)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

C: I'm all ears.

I myself had arrived at a plausible explanation for crop circles. Apart from 
creation by humans or any other species. I was told "they" were proven to be 
fraudulent though. I don't know.

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 11:37 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state
> > devices?  M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks?   A friend proposed
> > that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data
> recovery
> > becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional
> > magnetic media?
>
> I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years until
> the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent
> quality optical or pro magnetic media?
>

Spec is 1 or 3 years retention at end of life. At start of life it can be a
decade for QLC parts or 30 years for SLC parts though those latter
numbers aren't guaranteed.

You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe.
>

Yes. And access all the used block for some firmware (some won't do
proactive scans).

Warner

>
> - Ethan
>
> --
> : Ethan O'Toole
>
>
>

[cctalk] Media longevity (Was: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle


On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
...

What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state
devices?  M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks?   A friend proposed
that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data recovery
becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional
magnetic media?


some thoughts, albeit no technical insights:

Still a problem.
With spinning rust, you can bypass some of the mechanisms involved in 
normal reading, in order to get at a more "raw" version of what is 
recorded.  Such as GreaseWeazle.  Thus, a corrupted sector header, 
or a parity error, that migh lock you out of access using "normal" means 
can be examined.  In the case of only a few bits being bad, it can be 
manually repaired, albeit with considerable manual labor.



I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
(not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
casing?)


Current media is better than the early stuff.
But, it is still susceptible to degradation and/or damage.
All of my DVDs are also imaged on spinning rust.  (I have been told that 
it is legal to do so with commercial DVDs using ANYDVD, although 
marketing, or even creating, such a tool runs afoul of certain laws)


The latest variety of optical media, "MDISC", claims extreme longevity, 
while maintining full compatability with being read by "legacy" systems.
But, obviously real testing of such claims (rather than simulations or 
extrapolations from stress testing) will take time.
It does look like a good step away forward in protection against 
degradation.
Although, the higher the density (MDISC BDXL is available at 100GB on a 
disc), the less amenable it is to out of channel access for repair.


Obviously, distributed redundancy of storage is the only practical way to 
protect against damage.  But, that is of susbstantially less effectiveness 
against degradation.  In the relatively early stages of degradation, it 
can help to recognize when degradation is occuring, simply by seeing a 
copy go bad as a signal to check the other copies.


Multiple forms of the media, such as copying to every new form of media 
periodically serves to increase redundancy, and having mutilple media 
types reduces the possibilities of multiple copies degrading.


Occasionally, the tools and knowledge to access some media are lost.
News reports let us know that the sky is falling.
There is a fair amount of "reinventing the wheel" done to recover content 
that might still be trivial for othere.

Multiple forms of media is the obvious way.
The Egyptioan hieroglyphics were unreadable for a while, until somebody 
lucked onto a multi-form document (Rosetta Stone).
Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation.  (although I 
have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible 
calculations" for the placement of the stones.)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 6:53 PM Jim Brain via cctalk
 wrote:

> I think (I might have mentioned it at the thread start) it was part of a
> plan for a school network.  Tandy offered a similar setup for schools
> for the Model 1/3/4 systems, where the "host" could send programs, and
> the clients would load from the common host system.

IIRC there was the Network 1 which was 500 baud M1/3/4 only,  and the
Network 2 which was very similar but could also handle 1500 baud M3/4
and Coco (and M100?). These used the casstte ports and allowed the
host machine to 'broadcast' a file (program) to all the student
stations or load a file from one student station at a time back to the
host.

If there had been a version using DLOAD then presumably it would have
been host to student stations only, so the teacher couldn't
save/print/examine a student's work.

There was the Network 3 which used RS232 ports on the M3 (and M4?) but
which required a ROM change in the student stations I think.

-tony

[cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage

2023-01-31 Thread Jim Brain via cctalk


On 1/31/2023 6:04 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

"DLOAD is the most obscure command in the Color
Computer and absorbs a substantial amount of space in the ROM. DLOAD is so
poorly
understood because Tandy has never made the necessary companion routine,
DSEND.

I wonder if it was originally intended (or even used) at the factory
to download a diagnostic program into the machine for final testing,
or for similar use at repair centres?

The IBM5150 has a similarly obscure facility to download a diagnostic
program through the keyboard port (this one is sort-of documented in
the BIOS sources)

-tony


It's always a possibility, but a dead test cart with the code would have 
been a far better solution, and easier to implement, as the ROM is 
permanent 9so to speak) on a home machine and would have had to go 
through more QA.


I think (I might have mentioned it at the thread start) it was part of a 
plan for a school network.  Tandy offered a similar setup for schools 
for the Model 1/3/4 systems, where the "host" could send programs, and 
the clients would load from the common host system.


Jim

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

[cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage

2023-01-31 Thread Jim Brain via cctalk


On 1/31/2023 4:26 AM, Philip Belben via cctalk wrote:

ZX80, ZX81, Spectrum, Acorn Acom, Acorn Electron, BBC Micro, etc, etc.
Do you count machines like the Amstrad CPC464 which had a built-in
cassette recorder?


And don't forget the Commodore cassette port - used on the PET, VIC, 
C64, ...


I didn't.  It was in the email this was a reply to:

On 1/30/2023 11:34 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
Lots of systems had dedicated cassette ports, but yes, CoCo has a 
dedicated cassette port, as does all the 8 bit CBM machines, I think 
the Model 1/3/4 also, and doesn't the Apple II have one as well.  I am 
sure I am forgetting a bunch. 





This blurred the line between built-in cassette drives and cassette 
ports, since the built-in drive on early PETs became the separate 
drive on later ones, plugging into the same port.
Maybe less so than initially thought, as early PETs had 2 cassette 
ports, so I think that kept people from thnking the cassette drive was 
some "internal only" thing.  The second cassette was addressed as ,2, 
with the internal being ,1



Also unusual, I think, was that it didn't use a modem chip to generate 
tones, but bit-banged them in software.
Not sure how many systems did that, but it was not a CBM exclusive. 
Tandy did that as well on the various 8 bit platforms it offered.


Philip.



--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Ethan O'Toole via cctalk


What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state
devices?  M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks?   A friend proposed
that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data recovery
becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional
magnetic media?


I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years until 
the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent 
quality optical or pro magnetic media?


You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe.



- Ethan

--
: Ethan O'Toole

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

On 1/31/23 10:22, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> Regarding the recent GreaseWeazle story in Maryland:

> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
> casing?)

Half-inch open-reel 9 track tape seems to withstand the test of time as
well as anything.

The problem with the high-capacity tape used for server backup will be
finding drives and controllers compatible with it in years to come.  I
don't know how many people, for example, squirrel away LTO drives of
various types, but you're not going to read that LTO-2 tape on your
LTO-9 drive.  Then there's the matter of finding the apppropriate
controller.

8mm and DDS drives are starting to become uncommon.  And we all know the
fate of QIC/Travan tapes.

The rule seems to be that if you want to hang onto something, keep
migrating it to newer storage.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

2023-01-31 Thread Steve Lewis via cctalk

Regarding the recent GreaseWeazle story in Maryland:

What do you guys think of the "archive-ness" of current solid state
devices?  M.2, NVMe, SSD, or even USB thumb sticks?   A friend proposed
that when one of those starts to go bad, any kind of partial data recovery
becomes difficult - but any more difficult than the old traditional
magnetic media?

I noticed IBM still sells high speed large capacity tape backup.  Large
capacity as in gigabytes if not terabytes (think maybe a 17TB tape was
offered).  But for high speed, I think they are still "SATA-speeds"
(300-600 MB/s)?

Over the past decade or so, I've had a few SSD go bad.  In fact just a few
months ago, I had a main boot drive of a laptop (using an SSD) start to
develop bad sectors and gradually got worse and worse performance - I
mirrored it to a new SSD while the system was still bootable and that
worked out.  But I've never had to really do "data recovery" on any solid
state device.   I do recall once in awhile, "just pulling" a USB thumb
drive corrupted the data - this was more in the early days of USB (maybe
it's still an issue, just modern faster machines are quicker at closing
files and flushing caches, so it's less probable of an issue - but I see
kids at school yanking thumb drives all the time these days).

So I was just curious on other peoples thoughts on that.   Maybe we just
haven't had enough time to really tell yet.

I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
(not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
casing?)

-Steve

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 3:33 PM rar via cctalk 
wrote:

> Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney
>
> January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD — Staff members of the System Source
> Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David
> Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a
> new trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr.
> Veney from prison, and declined to re-prosecute.
>
>
>

[cctalk] Miscellaneous UCSD Pascal stuff I've found

2023-01-31 Thread David Barto via cctalk

This is all on paper and weighs a fair bit.
Located in San Diego area, so pickup would be best.
I’m willing to ship it for 50% of the shipping cost.

All classic computer related:

UCSD Pascal pSystem listing from UCSD Pascal II.0 along with notes about what 
BIOS failures look like.
Listing of a pascal_interpreter, written in Pascal (of course)

Tech Notes and Books:

Tech Notes:
Booting the CP/M Adaptable System on the IMS8000
SofTech MicroSystems Errata sheet for the FORTRAN Manual
UCSD Pascal System Synchronous Input/Output Subsystem Implementation Guide 
(II.1, Preliminary) Date 10 April 79
SofTech MicroSystems Marketing Department memo on Version IV compatiblity with 
Preceding Versions
SofTech MicroSystems Adaptable System Tech Note (TN #2)

Books:
UCSD Pascal Version I.5 September 1978
UCSD Pascal Version II.0 March 1979
SofTech MicroSystems Micro News Vol I, No. 3 May 1980
SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Pascal II.0 Users Manual Feb 1980
SofTech MicroSystems UCSD Fortran User Reference Manual May 1980
Practical Pascal Programs By Greg Davidson

David

[cctalk] Re: 5150 cassette (Was: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Comp

2023-01-31 Thread Paul Berger via cctalk




On 2023-01-30 6:39 p.m., ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:

Hi
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:12 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:>> The 
5150 had a cassette port!>> . . .>> The 5160 no longer had the cassette port.
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:> The cassette port on the 5150 could 
also be used as a Telecommunication> Device for the Deaf (TDD) many years ago I made up 
a ISA bus card with the> same function as the cassette port for a gentleman that wanted 
to move on> from a 5150 but still needed the cassette port for a TDD device.
Interesting!
Was that stand-alone and compatible with the ordinary TDD/TTY units?(and 
coupled to a modem)Or was that solely for communicating with other 5150s?
Or was that to use the 5150 as a KSR terminal for a TDD/TTY handling thePOT 
communication?

--Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Was this to actually communicate with the true Deftones for tdd work if so I'd 
be real interested in it we have a very large collection of items that are 
assistive for the deaf and hard of hearing at smecc Museum and this would 
qualify for that so yeah tell me some more thanks Ed


Unfortunately I don't recall the details, the board I made likely had a 
8253 timer chip and probably an 8255 since that was used for the motor 
control and also for the read data input on it and I believe the 
software did not use BIOS at all but rather talked directly to the 
hardware, so it was simple to modify it to use different I/O addresses.  
My involvement was just to create a replacement for the cassette  
interface that was built into a 5150, I was not involved with the 
software at all.


Paul.

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

2023-01-31 Thread Liam Proven via cctalk

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 13:14, Chris via cctalk  wrote:
>
>  I take pains to clearly differentiate what I'm saying from what I'm quoting 
> (and usually on a phone). All the while I have to struggle readimg others 
> mish mosh, often there not even being a single line separating the 2. So 
> please stop complaining. Learn to adapt and overcome.

Well, frankly: no.

Get better tools, such as K9 Mail which bottom-posts fine on Android
devices. Or do what I do: occasionally read mailing lists on my phone,
but I don't respond from my phone unless it's an emergency. I
mark-unread stuff I want to read later.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

 I take pains to clearly differentiate what I'm saying from what I'm quoting 
(and usually on a phone). All the while I have to struggle readimg others mish 
mosh, often there not even being a single line separating the 2. So please stop 
complaining. Learn to adapt and overcome. On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 
06:30:18 AM EST, Liam Proven via cctalk  wrote:  

 On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 08:09, Christian Corti via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Chris, can you *please* correctly indent and cite messages you are
> referring to? I am getting annoyed by guessing what part is from whom.

Agreed.

It's  dead easy if you're using Gmail. I am doing it right now in the
standard web client.

If you use Yahoo or other Oath services, or any MS client, then point
Thunderbird at it.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage

> "DLOAD is the most obscure command in the Color
> Computer and absorbs a substantial amount of space in the ROM. DLOAD is so
> poorly
> understood because Tandy has never made the necessary companion routine,
> DSEND.

I wonder if it was originally intended (or even used) at the factory
to download a diagnostic program into the machine for final testing,
or for similar use at repair centres?

The IBM5150 has a similarly obscure facility to download a diagnostic
program through the keyboard port (this one is sort-of documented in
the BIOS sources)

-tony

[cctalk] Re: DLOAD BASIC command for Color Computer 1/2 heritage