[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
Touchscreen with a 'real' stylus. On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 1:10 PM Kenton A. Hoover via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view on the mouse is correct. Much > of Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never > designed for (only) use by youth. > > Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch > targets needing to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never > want to take your hands off the keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just > sit in the middle of the graph of connivence/precision. > > .. > > -- > Kenton A. Hoover > ken...@nemersonhoover.org > shib...@mail.marchordie.org > +1 415 830 5843 > On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk , > wrote: > > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was > intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled > people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux > fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint > where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural > and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. > > > > Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads > superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old > Thinkpads. But again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows > almost daily. They have their place. And for portable devices they're > largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least had the option > of a mouse or something close. > > > > Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects > of the newer tech just await refinement? >
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view on the mouse is correct. Much of Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never designed for (only) use by youth. Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch targets needing to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never want to take your hands off the keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just sit in the middle of the graph of connivence/precision. .. -- Kenton A. Hoover ken...@nemersonhoover.org shib...@mail.marchordie.org +1 415 830 5843 On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk , wrote: > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended > not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with > their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, > it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I > favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and > faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. > > Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, > make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. > But again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. > They have their place. And for portable devices they're largely the only game > in town. But I often wish I at least had the option of a mouse or something > close. > > Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of > the newer tech just await refinement?
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 21:59, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > > Well, nobody teaches that... At least, nobody has taught me that, nor > have I ever seen anybody do that. In the early days, Apple did when it first introduced them, and some of the 1st PC laptops with them played little tutorial videos. But that was last century now. > And I have seen many people > complaining about how useless they are... Me too, but more seem to like than dislike them. :-( And they are solid-state and take no maintenance or cleaning, so they save manufacturers money. :-( Also, they support gestures, for people weaned on touchscreens, so I think their grip will not easily be broken. I dislike gestures and turn them off. As I type, on a circa 14 year old Thinkpad, which got a RAM upgrade yesterday, my trackpad is disabled and I have only a CLIT mouse. (Centrally Located Input Tool, of course.) > Now, for the first time in my life, have I access to this extremely > important information. :-D > Acceptably by which measurement? I hate them! I hate them! I hate them > with all my might! I disable them in all laptops when possible, either > by hardware or by software. > > But I'm trying one right now and, for the first time in many years, > thanks to this very email of yours, I'm seeing the point of this > freaking thing. I might even start to use it now instead of reaching for > a mouse when keyboard shortcuts don't cut it (almost exclusively while > browsing some very badly designed or heavily graphics loaded web sites). > > Thank you! Oh, well, great. I am very happy I was able to help! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > IF you can get used to it, the clit-mouse can work well. > Not everybody can get used to it. > And, until you do, it is extraordinarily frustrating. > It's one of those "is the dress gold or black" kinda things. I cannot stand them, and think they are the worst pointer design device ever devised by (an obviously deranged) man. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I also once had an IBM laptop with the "eraser stick" thingie in the middle of the keyboard. I turned it back in after a few weeks and demanded some other model, any model so long as it didn't have that device. IF you can get used to it, the clit-mouse can work well. Not everybody can get used to it. And, until you do, it is extraordinarily frustrating. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On 2023-01-23 18:56, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know *how* to use them effectively. Well, nobody teaches that... At least, nobody has taught me that, nor have I ever seen anybody do that. And I have seen many people complaining about how useless they are... The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right movements. Now, for the first time in my life, have I access to this extremely important information. Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but acceptably. Acceptably by which measurement? I hate them! I hate them! I hate them with all my might! I disable them in all laptops when possible, either by hardware or by software. But I'm trying one right now and, for the first time in many years, thanks to this very email of yours, I'm seeing the point of this freaking thing. I might even start to use it now instead of reaching for a mouse when keyboard shortcuts don't cut it (almost exclusively while browsing some very badly designed or heavily graphics loaded web sites). Thank you!
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 10:10 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Personally, I like trackpads. But my wife doesn't. And clearly there are > lots of opinions. Pick what you like, don't be surprised if others have > different preferences. > I love my Kensington Expert Mouse, which is actually a trackball.It and a Happy Hacking Pro keyboard fits onto my Humanscale 4G keyboard tray. It was a conscious effort to limit the amount of arm movement. Quite a few of my Linux colleagues use no mouse at all, all keyboard shortcuts. My wife cannot operate the trackball at all but it's all down to ramp up effort which is why I've never been able to adapt to one of the ergonomic split keyboards or Emacs :) Tony > > Are large trackballs (with balls the size of a golfball or larger) still > around? I remember a few people around the office that had one. I also > remember seeing all the air traffic controller stations at the local FAA > control center equipped with such trackballs. That made some sense, it > allows the operator to work in a confined space without having to worry > about keeping a clear desk surface. That was before touchpads were > invented, 1990s I think. > > > I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know > > *how* to use them effectively. > > > > The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large > > pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your > > fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the > > finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or > > toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right > > movements. > > > > Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it > > by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but > > acceptably. > > Interesting. It doesn't seem to apply to my Mac touchpad. Or maybe only > if I run Linux on that hardware, that seems to have a different sensitivity > setting. > > paul > >
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
> On Jan 23, 2023, at 12:56 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:00, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> >> I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. > > Agreed. > > Trackpads are tolerable, but I preferred the era of trackballs. But if > my laptop is on my actual lap, I turn off the trackpad and just use > the trackpoint. Easier, less arm and hand movement, keeps your hands > on the keyboard, and generally less hassle. Clearly what we have in this discussion is "different strokes for different folks". I once had a laptop with a small trackball in the front edge. It was somewhat tolerable on the desk, not so much on the lap. I also once had an IBM laptop with the "eraser stick" thingie in the middle of the keyboard. I turned it back in after a few weeks and demanded some other model, any model so long as it didn't have that device. Personally, I like trackpads. But my wife doesn't. And clearly there are lots of opinions. Pick what you like, don't be surprised if others have different preferences. Are large trackballs (with balls the size of a golfball or larger) still around? I remember a few people around the office that had one. I also remember seeing all the air traffic controller stations at the local FAA control center equipped with such trackballs. That made some sense, it allows the operator to work in a confined space without having to worry about keeping a clear desk surface. That was before touchpads were invented, 1990s I think. > I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know > *how* to use them effectively. > > The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large > pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your > fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the > finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or > toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right > movements. > > Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it > by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but > acceptably. Interesting. It doesn't seem to apply to my Mac touchpad. Or maybe only if I run Linux on that hardware, that seems to have a different sensitivity setting. paul
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:00, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Agreed. Trackpads are tolerable, but I preferred the era of trackballs. But if my laptop is on my actual lap, I turn off the trackpad and just use the trackpoint. Easier, less arm and hand movement, keeps your hands on the keyboard, and generally less hassle. I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know *how* to use them effectively. The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right movements. Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but acceptably. Which I think is also the point about MS Office 2007 and later. Before, with menus and toolbars, it was efficient once you memorised the layout of the menus and the hotkeys, and you could customise the toolbars as you saw fit. (I used to place them vertically at left and right of the workspace, add a bunch of my own buttons, remove some, and then I worked out it was quicker to memorise the hotkeys and just hide the toolbars completely.) I speedread. Recently someone on lobste.rs expressed incredulity I'd read a 5000 word article in 5 minutes. For me that is not even hurrying. Menus are fast. Most people can't read that fast, and can't memorise a complex menu layout. So for most people, the horrible ribbon introduced in Office 2007 is easier. They can't read fast, they lack comprehension, and so they search, every time, looking at groups of icons and then within them. For youngsters this is preferable. For grumpy old gits like me, it's worse. *MUCH* worse. I find Office 2007 & later unusable. I can't even put the big fat waste of space vertical. So, I keep some old copies of Office around, and I use LibreOffice and other tools. For now, I have the choice. But modern versions of Windows and Linux are removing menu bars, which are an old-people tool, and replacing them with icons and visual controls. For me, idiot lights, for idiots. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever actually used a light pen. Sellam On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 3:04 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > Bring back the light pen! > > Have you tried dragging and dropping in Excel with a light pen? OMG, never > again ;) > > -Ali > >
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
> Bring back the light pen! Have you tried dragging and dropping in Excel with a light pen? OMG, never again ;) -Ali
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 3:00 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > I find touch pads > > superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on > > old Thinkpads. > > I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Hate touch pads. They take > up too much real estate, are consistently being touched inappropriately > (see what I did there... lol), and are hard to do multi click, and drag and > drop operations with them. Touch screens have their uses but I think they > are very limited (i.e. works best in an app only environment where > interaction is menu/choice based). The younger generation would disagree... > Bring back the light pen!
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
> I find touch pads > superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on > old Thinkpads. I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Hate touch pads. They take up too much real estate, are consistently being touched inappropriately (see what I did there... lol), and are hard to do multi click, and drag and drop operations with them. Touch screens have their uses but I think they are very limited (i.e. works best in an app only environment where interaction is menu/choice based). The younger generation would disagree... -Ali
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On 1/22/23 08:43, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/22/23 07:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was >> intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled >> people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly >> linux fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There >> was a stint where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which >> is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. > I use a trackball on all my computers. Logitech works, but very > expensive. I use Kensington version. I do a lot of electronic CAD > work, and the mouse moves when I go to click a button. That requires me > to have a death grip on the mouse, and that gives me carpal tunnel > symptoms. You can take your fingers off the trackball before pressing > the buttons, then there is no cursor motion. When CT started to make my life miserable, I tried the Cirque pad as well as the C-H Products trackballs (still have them all). What made the difference for me was training my non-dominant hand to use the mouse. I still use a trackball where space is tight, however. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On 1/22/23 07:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. I use a trackball on all my computers. Logitech works, but very expensive. I use Kensington version. I do a lot of electronic CAD work, and the mouse moves when I go to click a button. That requires me to have a death grip on the mouse, and that gives me carpal tunnel symptoms. You can take your fingers off the trackball before pressing the buttons, then there is no cursor motion. Jon
[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices
On 2023-01-22 6:14 a.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications. Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. But again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They have their place. And for portable devices they're largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least had the option of a mouse or something close. Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of the newer tech just await refinement? CHEAPER IS BETTER!!! PC CLONES. or SELL A NEW PRODUCT AT HIGH PRICE AND CALL IT BETTER TECH !!! $100 mouse. $100 usb cables. or JUST BE BIGGER, APPLE,IBM,INTEL. It all boils down to marketing, and how to make people by newer crap. Ben.
