Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Not at all. Mark Drew Railo Technologies UK Professional Open Source skype: mark_railo email: m...@getrailo.com gtalk: m...@getrailo.com tel:+44 7971 85 22 96 web:http://www.getrailo.com On 24 Jul 2010, at 19:06, Arsalan Tariq Keen wrote: Does this mean CFML is or will be dying ? -- From: Mark Drew mark.d...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:19 PM To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee Well, is Ben not part of it too? Just saying MD On 23 Jul 2010, at 17:06, Cutter (ColdFusion) wrote: http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Community Professional - ColdFusion Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Co-Author of Learning Ext JS http://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js/book _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dan Baughman wrote: Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335704 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Well, no, not at all. CF has been around for a rather long time and never had a committee to define the language. The work of this particular committee had some effect, helping make some changes late in the CF9 development cycle and some changes in Railo and OpenBD I believe, but by and large it just reverts back to the state things were in a year or so ago. And that state was really quite good. I mean, Adobe is hard at work on Coldfusion X, Railo will be releasing 3.2 soonish and has an awesome looking roadmap for 4.0. OpenBD has released some cool new stuff recently and I'm sure has more planned. The big promise of the committee effort was to try and make a smooth roadmap for the core language so that things like a for-in loop over an array worked the same in all cfml engines. And with Java 7 adding in functional language support, I know that Railo will be adding closures (and probably anonymous functions) and I'm sure that Adobe and OpenBD will at some point as well. What would have been nice is if the committee could have worked out an agreed upon syntax *before* the launch of each supporting engine version so that it just worked. Now it probably means that there will be a few more quirks and inconsistencies between cfml engines. Not the end of the world by any means, just makes it a little bit harder for your average developer if you want to make things works cleanly across cfml engines, kind of like when you are writing CSS and Javascript that needs to support multiple browsers. Would it be awesome if IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari and Opera all got together and made the basic stuff all work the same? Yes it would. But it doesn't, though it has gradually gotten better as the language and the browsers have matured. Same thing is/will likely be true with the various cfml engines. Would be awesome if they worked together on the core language, but if not, we'll live and figure it out and as they all mature, the core language will mostly settle down in compatibility. Cheers, Judah On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Arsalan Tariq Keen arsalk...@hotmail.com wrote: Does this mean CFML is or will be dying ? -- From: Mark Drew mark.d...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:19 PM To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee Well, is Ben not part of it too? Just saying MD On 23 Jul 2010, at 17:06, Cutter (ColdFusion) wrote: http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Community Professional - ColdFusion Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Co-Author of Learning Ext JS http://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js/book _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dan Baughman wrote: Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335706 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Does this mean CFML is or will be dying ? -- From: Mark Drew mark.d...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:19 PM To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee Well, is Ben not part of it too? Just saying MD On 23 Jul 2010, at 17:06, Cutter (ColdFusion) wrote: http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Community Professional - ColdFusion Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Co-Author of Learning Ext JS http://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js/book _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dan Baughman wrote: Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335698 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
No, I wouldn't say that. It just means that there is no longer a committee, whose goal is to have a standard set of tags available in all three engines. It means that if Adobe pushes a new tag into CFX, there is no one saying that that tag should then become a part of the common language base with Railo and OpenBD, of course the opposite is true that any tag that resides in Railo and OpenBD do not need to be integrated into ACF as part of a standard language. Rob On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Arsalan Tariq Keen arsalk...@hotmail.comwrote: Does this mean CFML is or will be dying ? -- From: Mark Drew mark.d...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:19 PM To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee Well, is Ben not part of it too? Just saying MD On 23 Jul 2010, at 17:06, Cutter (ColdFusion) wrote: http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Community Professional - ColdFusion Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Co-Author of Learning Ext JS http://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js/book _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dan Baughman wrote: Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335699 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335674 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Community Professional - ColdFusion Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Co-Author of Learning Ext JS http://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js/book _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dan Baughman wrote: Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335676 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Well, is Ben not part of it too? Just saying MD On 23 Jul 2010, at 17:06, Cutter (ColdFusion) wrote: http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Community Professional - ColdFusion Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer Co-Author of Learning Ext JS http://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js/book _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dan Baughman wrote: Is there an official adobe announcement that it pulled out? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335677 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
I find this to be a very disappointing development. I have no insight into the politics behind this but I can definitely say that we are a poorer community for this choice. http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml I looked forward to being able to write applications to a spec and have some confidence that they would run on multiple engines. It looks like that will continue to be a dream. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335632 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
My thoughts - quote from Adam: It is today, as it was before. Innovation and progress in CFML is driven exclusively by the ColdFusion community. Adobe is merely a vessel that pours those ideas into ColdFusion and spread CFML advancements throughout the world. As a community, we never needed the OpenCFML board to guide or document feedback. I would alter that to be 'Adobe is the CURRENT vessel' since from the beginning CFML innovation was always driven by the community going back to the days of Allaire and the Team Allaire members. If the OpenBD team claims it is not organized enough to submit ideas then they are most likely not organized enough to release a new version of OpenBD and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. This is unfortunate since the commercial version of BlueDragon used to be innovative. If Railo Team claims they want to wait and see what tags flush out in their flavor of CFML then two things are true, 1: they are implementing language enhancements that are not community driven and 2: Railo would rather take a wait and see role instead or a lead role in the OpenCFML board. 2¢ Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Jul 22, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Judah McAuley wrote: I find this to be a very disappointing development. I have no insight into the politics behind this but I can definitely say that we are a poorer community for this choice. http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml I looked forward to being able to write applications to a spec and have some confidence that they would run on multiple engines. It looks like that will continue to be a dream. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335635 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote: My thoughts - quote from Adam: It is today, as it was before. Innovation and progress in CFML is driven exclusively by the ColdFusion community. Adobe is merely a vessel that pours those ideas into ColdFusion and spread CFML advancements throughout the world. As a community, we never needed the OpenCFML board to guide or document feedback. I would alter that to be 'Adobe is the CURRENT vessel' since from the beginning CFML innovation was always driven by the community going back to the days of Allaire and the Team Allaire members. ColdFusion is a trademark owned by Adobe. CFML is something that is shared across a number of engines. I appreciate what Adobe has done so far for CFML. I think it is a bit disingenuous to say that Adobe is merely a vessel to put those ideas into effect. It is a, rather large, commercial entity and it first and foremost has it's own best interests at heart (by design, that's how companies work). To the extent that it aligns with developer interests, that is a great thing. If the OpenBD team claims it is not organized enough to submit ideas then they are most likely not organized enough to release a new version of OpenBD and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. This is unfortunate since the commercial version of BlueDragon used to be innovative. I have no experience with OpenBD, so I can't really comment. If Railo Team claims they want to wait and see what tags flush out in their flavor of CFML then two things are true, 1: they are implementing language enhancements that are not community driven and 2: Railo would rather take a wait and see role instead or a lead role in the OpenCFML board. I do not know if you've had any experience with the Railo project team. I can honestly say that I have never seen a more responsive project. Community suggestions are made on the mailing list, discussed, dropped in JIRA and implemented all the time. As in weekly. The lead developer on the project has often times come to the mailing list and asked for feedback on the best way to implement an idea they'd been tossing around. They have pushed the language forward in the past and continue to do so, with much greater transparency and feedback than any other project I've ever seen. Might they wait on decisions from Adobe about implementation of certain items? That seems prudent to me as it is in the best interests of all CFML programmers to have a consistent language syntax and behavior, certainly for the core language at the least. Like I said, I don't know the politics behind the whole thing. I can't say I really understand Adam's reasons from reading his blog post. My concern, however, isn't the behind the scenes politics, it is my disappointment that an effort to standardize the core language has been tossed by the wayside. I don't really care how it gets done but I think it is in the best interests of developers to be able to write an app with knowledge that you can drop it into a host running Adobe ColdFusion, Railo or OpenBD and be off and running. Ah well. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335636 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Judahjust FYIthe OpenBD team is every bit as responsive as you just described the Railo team Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335637 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Adobe CURRENTLY owns the ColdFusion trademark. This has not always been the case but the trademark has always been commercially owned. about Railo I can honestly say that I have never seen a more responsive project. Community suggestions are made on the mailing list, discussed, dropped in JIRA and implemented all the time. As in weekly. This is most likely the problem that Sean was referring to. Being responsive to the community is one thing, being overly responsive is a problem. Just because one person asks for something and three more chime in with me to +++1 does not make the request 'community driven'. Sean was saying Railo needs to wait and see what parts of their flavor of CFML become popular. This means too many requests are added too quickly without proper market research. Adobe is responding to the community in a mature fashion. Absorbing multitudes of requests, flushing out those requests, talking to the community, to major players and companies that use ColdFusion to see if a request makes sense and would be useful. This method helps ensure that only the best requests get added into CFML and helps ensure proper and complete implementation. To me Railo seems to be adding to their flavor of CFML as fast as the children say 'ooh, I want'. This results in a fat bloated language spec (and fat children). +2¢ Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Jul 22, 2010, at 11:30 AM, Judah McAuley wrote: I can honestly say that I have never seen a more responsive project. Community suggestions are made on the mailing list, discussed, dropped in JIRA and implemented all the time. As in weekly. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335639 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
You seem primarily interested in defending Adobe and attacking open source projects. I find this rather unhelpful and churlish. I was not trying to start a political discussion at all but rather pointing out to the community that a rather promising project has met its demise. I would like to see a standards body for CFML that pushes an evolving language framework forward while still giving individual implementations room to innovate. As a community of developers, we stand the best chance of maintaining and expanding our ranks if a new developer can come in, see a well written language spec and know that if they jump into a project they can deploy it on a CF9 multi-instance cluster at an enterprise site fronted by a BigIP load balancer or they can demo it on a $10 a month Railo VPS. I have no desire to get into any blame games and I hope that we avoid them all together. I just want to see a promising project revived because I think it will be to the benefit of us all. Judah On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote: Adobe CURRENTLY owns the ColdFusion trademark. This has not always been the case but the trademark has always been commercially owned. about Railo I can honestly say that I have never seen a more responsive project. Community suggestions are made on the mailing list, discussed, dropped in JIRA and implemented all the time. As in weekly. This is most likely the problem that Sean was referring to. Being responsive to the community is one thing, being overly responsive is a problem. Just because one person asks for something and three more chime in with me to +++1 does not make the request 'community driven'. Sean was saying Railo needs to wait and see what parts of their flavor of CFML become popular. This means too many requests are added too quickly without proper market research. Adobe is responding to the community in a mature fashion. Absorbing multitudes of requests, flushing out those requests, talking to the community, to major players and companies that use ColdFusion to see if a request makes sense and would be useful. This method helps ensure that only the best requests get added into CFML and helps ensure proper and complete implementation. To me Railo seems to be adding to their flavor of CFML as fast as the children say 'ooh, I want'. This results in a fat bloated language spec (and fat child ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335640 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote: This is most likely the problem that Sean was referring to. Being responsive to the community is one thing, being overly responsive is a problem. Just because one person asks for something and three more chime in with me to +++1 does not make the request 'community driven'. Sean was saying Railo needs to wait and see what parts of their flavor of CFML become popular. This means too many requests are added too quickly without proper market research. It's also important to consider the difference between the core language - which needs to be compatible across all engines for those engines to be useful - and the rest of the CFML stuff. So Railo can easily implement new administrator features, networked caches and all manner of extensions based on the needs of a few but when it comes to the language, much more care must be taken. A great example is for-in for arrays in cfscript. Railo has supported var in such loops for a long time and had for-in on arrays long before the committee considered it. The committee picked a different implementation but since no one but Railo had implemented it, there was no compatibility issue (insofar as code that ran on Adobe / OpenBD behaved the same on Railo). With CF9.0.1 adding for-in array matching the committee spec, Railo changed their for-in array implementation to match - breaking some existing Railo code because core language compatibility is important (and there will probably be an Administrator setting added to allow legacy Railo code to continue to execute as-is). To me Railo seems to be adding to their flavor of CFML as fast as the children say 'ooh, I want'. This results in a fat bloated language spec (and fat children). And yet the Adobe ColdFusion uses far more disk space and RAM than OpenBD or Railo... :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret A ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335641 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
My thoughts - [SNIP] If the OpenBD team claims it is not organized enough to submit ideas then they are most likely not organized enough to release a new version of OpenBD and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. This is unfortunate since the commercial version of BlueDragon used to be innovative. I completely disagree with you about that one. The OBD group (sounds like an SM party ;) is quite innovative, for instance there are several items which are now in CF9 that I believe had their inception in Open BlueDragon. OBD has a very active mailing list, and the committee and programmers involved in it are quite responsive to the community and also to their own innovation. regards, larry ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335647 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. I guess that all depends on your definition of innovative. I have been following the OBD mailing list and (off the top of my head) could any of these be defined as innovative? Porting OBD to run on Google App Engine? Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), SimpleDB and Simple Queue Service? Or rendering dynamic CFML code? Or a spell checker plugin? G? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: My thoughts - [SNIP] If the OpenBD team claims it is not organized enough to submit ideas then they are most likely not organized enough to release a new version of OpenBD and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. This is unfortunate since the commercial version of BlueDragon used to be innovative. -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com Wait. We can't stop here. This is bat country. -- HST ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335652 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote: If the OpenBD team claims it is not organized enough to submit ideas then they are most likely not organized enough to release a new version of OpenBD and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. This is unfortunate since the commercial version of BlueDragon used to be innovative. Could I see a link where this is claimed, by an OpenBD person and not purported by someone else? I'd just like to understand where this is coming from since to date we have had timely releases and are delivering point releases every few months (we shoot for 6ish months per release). I'm open to criticism and would be more than interested in your, or other's, feedback but blindly saying OpenBD is not organized is libelous. Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335654 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
I don't think it is that disappointing honestly. I do think we need to continue, as engine developers, to have a dialogue with each other.There doesn't need to be this ceremonious board to do it. We have a discussion group for conventional wisdom and things that need vetted could go there. We also have phones and email where we can collaborate, it is on the engine developers to be nice and courteous. If we're thinking about adding a tag or a feature we need to step up and reach out to the other engine makers and talk to them and get some feedback. That's easy for me to say being in the completely open source camp (even for us we could improve on this though) I understand if Adobe is working on something they don't want to get out too far they'd rather not talk to other engines. If an engine is looking at adding cfjavascript but not going to follow the conventional syntax OpenBD established a little phone call is a good idea. Same thing when OpenBD looks to implement CF9 features we should be following what has been set forth. Adam On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.comwrote: I find this to be a very disappointing development. I have no insight into the politics behind this but I can definitely say that we are a poorer community for this choice. http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml I looked forward to being able to write applications to a spec and have some confidence that they would run on multiple engines. It looks like that will continue to be a dream. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335655 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. G! On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.comwrote: and certainly not organized enough to be innovative. I guess that all depends on your definition of innovative. I have been following the OBD mailing list and (off the top of my head) could any of these be defined as innovative? Porting OBD to run on Google App Engine? Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), SimpleDB and Simple Queue Service? Or rendering dynamic CFML code? Or a spell checker plugin? G? -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com Wait. We can't stop here. This is bat country. -- HST -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com Wait. We can't stop here. This is bat country. -- HST ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335657 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Sean made a distinction about core language functionality versus add-ons and I think that I should have made that distinction more strongly myself. His example of the for-in loop for arrays is a good one. I'm writing a lot of code today looping over arrays of objects. I'm using the for(i=1; i = ArrayLen(myArray); i++) syntax because i know it works everywhere. I would much rather use a for-in loop but due to the changes that Adobe made in 9.0.1, Railo and Adobe are temporarily incompatible. Railo has made changes to match compatibility but it will be a bit before it makes its way to the stable release. And I have no idea if OpenBD supports that syntax at all. Another example would be transactions. I wanted to write a transaction in cfscript today. I know that CF9 supports it. I don't know if Railo or OpenBD does or if they do, whether there are any major differences. If a developer comes in, downloads the current release of Adobe Coldfusion, Railo or OpenBD and then finds some random tutorials and examples of CFML on the web, I think that all the core language features should just work. There will be thinks like cfldap, S3 integration and such that won't and I'm ok with that. But I do think that a core, coordinated, language is not only key to helping existing developers be more productive, it is also key to attracting and retaining new developers. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Adam Haskell a.hask...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it is that disappointing honestly. I do think we need to continue, as engine developers, to have a dialogue with each other.There doesn't need to be this ceremonious board to do it. We have a discussion group for conventional wisdom and things that need vetted could go there. We also have phones and email where we can collaborate, it is on the engine developers to be nice and courteous. If we're thinking about adding a tag or a feature we need to step up and reach out to the other engine makers and talk to them and get some feedback. That's easy for me to say being in the completely open source camp (even for us we could improve on this though) I understand if Adobe is working on something they don't want to get out too far they'd rather not talk to other engines. If an engine is looking at adding cfjavascript but not going to follow the conventional syntax OpenBD established a little phone call is a good idea. Same thing when OpenBD looks to implement CF9 features we should be following what has been set forth. Adam On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.comwrote: I find this to be a very disappointing development. I have no insight into the politics behind this but I can definitely say that we are a poorer community for this choice. http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/adobe-no-longer-part-of-opencfml I looked forward to being able to write applications to a spec and have some confidence that they would run on multiple engines. It looks like that will continue to be a dream. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335658 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
There doesn't need to be a big ceremonious board, but there does need to be an official language spec, IMHO. randomness Maybe the cfdictionary project could be fleshed out... we could have a nice list of what works like what with what... a single point of reference type of deal... Eh. It's a personal goal at least, but I have oodles of those. :) :Den -- Grief is only the memory of widowed affections. James Martineau On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Adam Haskell wrote: I don't think it is that disappointing honestly. I do think we need to continue, as engine developers, to have a dialogue with each other.There doesn't need to be this ceremonious board to do it. We have a discussion group for conventional wisdom and things that need vetted could go there. We also have phones and email where we can collaborate, it is on the engine developers to be nice and courteous. If we're thinking about adding a tag or a feature we need to step up and reach out to the other engine makers and talk to them and get some feedback. That's easy for me to say being in the completely open source camp (even for us we could improve on this though) I understand if Adobe is working on something they don't want to get out too far they'd rather not talk to other engines. If an engine is looking at adding cfjavascript but not going to follow the conventional syntax OpenBD established a little phone call is a good idea. Same thing when OpenBD looks to implement CF9 features we should be following what has been set forth. Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335660 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Er, cfmldictionary? ;-) :den -- Religion is no more possible without prayer than poetry without language, or music without atmosphere. James Martineau On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:39 PM, denstar wrote: There doesn't need to be a big ceremonious board, but there does need to be an official language spec, IMHO. randomness Maybe the cfdictionary project could be fleshed out... we could have a nice list of what works like what with what... a single point of reference type of deal... Eh. It's a personal goal at least, but I have oodles of those. :) :D ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335661 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Link? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:40 PM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote: Er, cfmldictionary? ;- ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335663 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
http://github.com/denuno/cfml.dictionary It's just a java project right now, but the plan is to leverage it to power a CFML application similar to quickdocs, etc., but with different engines in mind, blah blah blah. CFEclipse was the motivation for this... I'm in the process of switching the way dictionaries are handled to a more flexible and collaborative type of deal. Pull updates from a URL, add/update/share dictionaries easily, etc.. It's a shame that a squatter appears to hold cfml dot org, it would be really nifty to have dictionaries.cfml.org, etc.. The CFML application/website is a bit of a pipe dream at this point, but I'm actively working on the actual java library for interacting with CFML dictionaries, which is more pressing for me ATM. I really need to just bite the bullet and get a VPS somewhere, otherwise the CFML applications will continue to be dreams. Maybe I'll try cfmldeveloper.com for now. :) Yes, I can do it all-- I'm special like that. HOOAH! =)p Should be done by about 2018. :Den -- A specter is haunting Europe - the specter of communism. Karl Marx On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Maureen wrote: Link? On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:40 PM, denstar wrote: Er, cfmldictionary? ; ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335664 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
Oh yeah, and it will allow editing of tags online. That part will probably come before anything else, and materialize pretty soon, as I'm s tired of wanking with the dictionaries by hand, so to speak. Yeah, I know last sentence sounds funny if you're across the pond. Byte me. :) -- Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included. Karl Marx On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote: http://github.com/denuno/cfml.dictionary It's just a java project right now, but the plan is to leverage it to power a CFML application similar to quickdocs, etc., but with different engines in mind, blah blah blah. CFEclipse was the motivation for this... I'm in the process of switching the way dictionaries are handled to a more flexible and collaborative type of deal. Pull updates from a URL, add/update/share dictionaries easily, etc.. It's a shame that a squatter appears to hold cfml dot org, it would be really nifty to have dictionaries.cfml.org, etc.. The CFML application/website is a bit of a pipe dream at this point, but I'm actively working on the actual java library for interacting with CFML dictionaries, which is more pressing for me ATM. I really need to just bite the bullet and get a VPS somewhere, otherwise the CFML applications will continue to be dreams. Maybe I'll try cfmldeveloper.com for now. :) Yes, I can do it all-- I'm special like that. HOOAH! =)p Should be done by about 2018. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335665 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: I'm using the for(i=1; i = ArrayLen(myArray); i++) syntax because i know it works everywhere. I would much rather use a for-in loop but due to the changes that Adobe made in 9.0.1, Railo and Adobe are temporarily incompatible. Railo has made changes to match compatibility but it will be a bit before it makes its way to the stable release. True, it was adjusted to match the OpenCFML spec / ACF9.0.1 in 3.1.2.016 (we're at 3.1.2.018 now) and will be part of the stable 3.2 release 'soon'. Another example would be transactions. I wanted to write a transaction in cfscript today. I know that CF9 supports it. I don't know if Railo or OpenBD does or if they do, whether there are any major differences. According to JIRA, Railo added cfscript transaction support in 3.1.2.014: https://jira.jboss.org/browse/RAILO-749 but nested transactions are not yet supported: https://jira.jboss.org/browse/RAILO-689 -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335667 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe no longer part of the OpenCFML committee
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Or support for Amazon Web services: S3 (well before Adobe did), My bad. Before I get a public tongue lashing... I got Railo mixed up with OBD with the S3 support. Yup, Railo introduced the concept of resources quite a long time ago (in Railo 2.0, back in 2007) that allows standard file tags to work with ram, S3, ZIP files, FTP sites and even database tables. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:335668 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
