Re: Is CF still relevant?
Peter Well said! I would add one very important thing... actually 2 related things: CF facilitates or encourages writing human-readable, self-documenting, code better than any programming language I have seen or used. This means that you, or someone else, can easily read and understand your program 6 months down the road. Program maintenance is faster, easier and costs much less over time. I shudder to recall those heady days when the popular challenge was I can write that APL program in 1 line but I don't remember what it does... and can't figure out how it does it! (Ken Iversen is probably raveling (,) in his grave). Or John Draper screaming at the top of his lungs at a PC because he could not get changes to his IBM/PC word processor (written in Forth) to work... and his document rolled up, off the screen, into the vapor. or counting parens in LITHP. or the mind-numbing verbosity of the Data Section in CoBOL or trying to enter the proper state of mind to understand the magic of Pearl... TIMTOWTDIW... There Is More Than One Way To Do IT Wrong! Your description of ASP/VB is apt... it really is a Troll. Like you, I've written the ...er, ah... Native-American program in more languages than I care to remember. Cold Fusion may not be the Best of All Time, but it is very well suited for the job at hand. Dick P.S. The first programming language I learned was SOAP... the first I was paid to use was FARGO P.P.S. I can write that SQL Query and Display the output in 2 lines of code (cfquery and cfoutput). There, I've said it! At 12:27 AM -0400 4/25/01, Peter Theobald wrote: I seem to be the exception rather than the rule around here. I am NOT a graphic artist/webmaster learning his first programming language. I am a trained programmer with years of experience programming many different systems. I probably know more computer languages than many of you have heard of ( Cold Fusion, Java, Perl, PHP, SQL, Javascript, HTML, C++, C, Basic, LISP, Forth, Fortran, TCL/Tk, Pascal, Modula-2, COBOL, SNOBOL, Prolog, APL, HyperCard, Bash/SH/CSH/KSH, Bliss, Assembly: Intel, M68000, Z80, 6502, and many many more) For me Cold Fusion's appeal is NOT it's easy learning curve (although it IS easy to learn). It is that it is the FASTEST development environment available to me for producing bug-free, efficient, powerful web sites. I don't develop in ASP/VB because it is an ugly, error prone language that slows me down with too many details. I don't develop (much) in Java because, while it's a beautiful well designed language, it also slows me down with too many unimportant details. I also love Perl for it's power (though pity the newcomer trying to learn it :-) ) but again, it is not the optimal web programming environment. In Cold Fusion I can GET THE JOB DONE. All my customers care about is that I deliver the best possible web site in the shortest time for the least cost. Cold Fusion let's me do that. My customers are happy, so I am happy. In Cold Fusion I can hand off components of a site to junior programmers and they will be very productive. And in Cold Fusion I can switch from WinNT/Win2K hosting to Linux hosting to Solaris hosting if I need to with a minimum of trouble. I can also switch from SQL Server to Sybase to Oracle with a minimum of trouble. Try THAT in ASP! Sorry to rant, but, yes, in my opinion CF is more relevant than ever. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
I shudder to recall those heady days when the popular challenge was I can write that APL program in 1 line but I don't remember what it does... and can't figure out how it does it! Unfortunately those days have not gone, on the contrary... s/APL/Perl/gi Nick ** Information in this email is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You should not otherwise copy it, retransmit it or use or disclose its contents to anyone. Thank you for your co-operation. ** ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
At 9:03 AM +0100 4/25/01, DeVoil, Nick wrote: I shudder to recall those heady days when the popular challenge was I can write that APL program in 1 line but I don't remember what it does... and can't figure out how it does it! Unfortunately those days have not gone, on the contrary... s/APL/Perl/gi Nick Yes and no... you chose a regexp to illustrate your point... there is a lot more magic/complexity to Perl than regexp,.. the I/O, alone, is a thing of wonder. But, I do think that the time spent to learn regexp pays dividends, regardless of the programming language you use them in. Even here, CF's rather weak implementation (getting better with each release), allows you to do things like parsing/removing html tags... in an efficient and straight-forward way. For example the code to format a WDDX packet for display: cfset xx = CFHTTP.FileContent cfset xx = ReReplace(xx, \([^\/]),ullt;\1, ALL) cfset xx = ReReplace(xx, \([\/][^\]+\), brlt;\1/ul, ALL) or the Perl equivalent (not tested) $xx =~ s/\([^\/])/ullt\;\1/g; $xx =~ s/\([\/][^\]+\)/brlt\;\1/ul/g; while at first glance is gibberish, it is simple, efficient and actually quite elegant. I must admit, the CF code is actually more readable than the Perl equivalent. My point is regexp even though cryptic, are a good thing. They are especially useful to any one who uses CF's powerful cfhttp tag to harvest information from other sites: pulling stock prices, shipping rates, airline schedules, news articles, etc. manipulating various formats text of text or html files. Regexp are your friend... I only wish Flash supported them. Dick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
I seem to be the exception rather than the rule around here. I am NOT a graphic artist/webmaster learning his first programming language. I am a trained programmer with years of experience programming many different systems. I probably know more computer languages than many of you have heard of ( Cold Fusion, Java, Perl, PHP, SQL, Javascript, HTML, C++, C, Basic, LISP, Forth, Fortran, TCL/Tk, Pascal, Modula-2, COBOL, SNOBOL, Prolog, APL, HyperCard, Bash/SH/CSH/KSH, Bliss, Assembly: Intel, M68000, Z80, 6502, and many many more) For me Cold Fusion's appeal is NOT it's easy learning curve (although it IS easy to learn). It is that it is the FASTEST development environment available to me for producing bug-free, efficient, powerful web sites. I don't develop in ASP/VB because it is an ugly, error prone language that slows me down with too many details. I don't develop (much) in Java because, while it's a beautiful well designed language, it also slows me down with too many unimportant details. I also love Perl for it's power (though pity the newcomer trying to learn it :-) ) but again, it is not the optimal web programming environment. In Cold Fusion I can GET THE JOB DONE. All my customers care about is that I deliver the best possible web site in the shortest time for the least cost. Cold Fusion let's me do that. My customers are happy, so I am happy. In Cold Fusion I can hand off components of a site to junior programmers and they will be very productive. And in Cold Fusion I can switch from WinNT/Win2K hosting to Linux hosting to Solaris hosting if I need to with a minimum of trouble. I can also switch from SQL Server to Sybase to Oracle with a minimum of trouble. Try THAT in ASP! Sorry to rant, but, yes, in my opinion CF is more relevant than ever. At 05:31 PM 4/20/01 -0400, Joseph Grossberg wrote: You brought up and interesting point, and Neo will be a big boost to CF, IMHO, and I'll be psyched when it arrives. But if someone knows Java, why not just use JRun at that point? Also, Allaire doesn't seem to have a concrete date for CF Server 5 release, much less Neo (a.k.a. version 6). However, while I think that some additional stuff CF does is good (e.g. integration with Flash; I think the MM/Allaire merger is very complimentary), it seems like it's just way behind on other things. I mean, even Perl programmers can use OOP and XML if they want to, but it's not necessary. With CF, you don't even have that option. ColdFusion just seems like it's always a step (or more) behind the competing technologies. I also don't like the fact that we're basically depending on one vendor for everything except a smattering of custom tags and minor third-party applications. If something in Perl or Python doesn't work, someone fixes it soon. If something in ASP or Java doesn't work, then MS or Sun fixes it (or another company will sell it, because the market is large enough). But since Allaire is solely responsible for CF Studio, CF Server, Spectra, JRun, etc., it seems like we're putting all our eggs in one basket. Like, Oh, your upgrade to CF Server 4.5 broke your CFHTTP / CFFTP / CFMAIL tag? Well you have to downgrade to 4.0 or just wait ... until ... whenever we finally release 5.0 ... assuming it's fixed then. Like I said, I think CF has its plusses and minuses, but it just seems less compelling to me by the month. Joe From: Derek Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:40:36 -0700 A couple thoughts... Don't you think Neo/Java will enable CF to pull in other developers and let those of us that know Java expand what we would typically do with CF? Also, don't you think that Allaire now being Macromedia will enhance it's staying power and entice more developers to learn CF? At our company we use CF because it is fast to develop with. No other language we've found has been so fast AND powerful. Derek Hamilton Systems Developer - Original Message - From: Joseph Grossberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML
RE: Is CF still relevant?
Joe said: If you're calling the better-suited things in as a CF object (e.g. Java, COM, MSXML) to do things, then why not just use those technologies (or families of technologies) and skip the CF entirely? I'm not sure I follow this. To use JAVA, COM, or any of these other techologies on a web site, you have to call them from another technology that actually communicates with the browser. This is part of what CF, ASP, JSP, and PHP do. Where is the distinction? --John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
If you're calling the better-suited things in as a CF object (e.g. Java, COM, MSXML) to do things, then why not just use those technologies (or families of technologies) and skip the CF entirely? I'm not sure I follow this. To use JAVA, COM, or any of these other technologies on a web site, you have to call them from another technology that actually communicates with the browser. This is part of what CF, ASP, JSP, and PHP do. Where is the distinction? While I'm certainly a fan of CF, I can certainly see a distinction. CF's support for COM objects, for example, has some fairly serious limitations, to the extent that for some objects, I might have to create others to use as wrappers. I don't have to do that in ASP. ASP is a far superior environment if all you're doing is using a bunch of COM objects. Likewise, if I wanted to contain my core business logic in EJB, it would most likely be more seamless to do so in conjunction with a servlet- and JSP-based interface to those EJBs. To be perfectly honest, because of these limitations, there are some applications that I wouldn't build in CF. For example, I've been using ADSI for some time now, and that's simply a lot harder to do in CF than ASP - you can't do it directly. The thing that keeps me coming back to CF is that, for most general tasks, it lets me do my job a lot better than the above-listed alternatives. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
It's been a while since I've done any Java programming and I don't claim to be an expert, but the most common browsers (IE / Navigator) have a Java Virtual Machine in them. An applet runs in the browser and has nothing to do with CF, ASP, JSP, or PHP. You don't need any of those technologies to use a Java applet. At 09:45 AM 04/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: Joe said: If you're calling the better-suited things in as a CF object (e.g. Java, COM, MSXML) to do things, then why not just use those technologies (or families of technologies) and skip the CF entirely? I'm not sure I follow this. To use JAVA, COM, or any of these other techologies on a web site, you have to call them from another technology that actually communicates with the browser. This is part of what CF, ASP, JSP, and PHP do. Where is the distinction? --John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
Joseph, this is certainly not a Macromedia response but a Mike Brunt (a lowly consultant) response. I think your email was well stated and it has generated some really healthy open debate. We all need to place close attention to the marketplace for my part I want whatever is best for the good of the Internet, the Web and all it's users. I am here because I honestly believe the Internet to be a major force in making the world a better place. Thanks for sparking a great debate. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt Macromedia Consulting Tel 562.243.6255 Fax 401.696.4335 http://www.macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
Joseph, Great questions. If you asked me 6 months ago, I would answer you by saying that the reason I use CF primarily is because it is a great RAD tool. Today, I am thinking about how cool it will be to leverage my CF experience once CF is tied to Flash better (better than Harpoon). The thought of this alone gets my heart racing.A couple of years ago, M$ introduced their "Agent" ActiveX component that allowed you to have a little character (like those annoying M$ Office Assistants) that you could script to make talk. I thought that this was pretty neat, but it required a slow download, and the performance was hideous. Also, you were stuck with the characters that M$ developed. With Flash working better with CF, you could create some compelling agents, IM programs, distance learning tools, training programs, and more. There is probably a lot of potential here that we have not even thought of yet. So the Flash potential and also UltraDev's *potential* have me excited. Those are my hopes for CF. My fears are: - How well will CF be integrated with UltraDev? - How well will CF be integrated with Flash? And I don't mean little Harpoon calendars. - Will MM fix/improve the advanced security features of CF? The "Users -- Groups -- Policies" security model is cludgy. - Will MM or Version 5.0 improve/automate remote file management? By this I mean that I would like for CF to allow me to manage files on the server much like FrontPage extensions do. You rename a file, and all of the links to the file get renamed. FP is a newbie tool, but this is a HUGE time saver when you have a really big site to manage. - Will MM lower the cost of the server? The pro version should cost $599.00. - How will the real world performance be with the Java-based "NEO" (CF version 6.0). I know they say it is faster, but I am just worried. - How soon will 5.0 be out? User defined functions and querying a query will be awesome. The User defined functions alone will add tremendously to the CF community once you can download custom functions (loan calculators, etc.). Just my 2 cents. John McKown, Owner Delaware.Net, Inc. 30 Old Rudnick Lane, Suite 200 Dover, DE 19901 phone: 302-736-5515 toll free: 888-432-7965 fax: 302-736-5945 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
Can someone point me to any online articles about NEO? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.interacttechs.com - Original Message - From: "John McKown" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 8:56 PM Subject: RE: Is CF still relevant? Joseph, Great questions. If you asked me 6 months ago, I would answer you by saying that the reason I use CF primarily is because it is a great RAD tool. Today, I am thinking about how cool it will be to leverage my CF experience once CF is tied to Flash better (better than Harpoon). The thought of this alone gets my heart racing.A couple of years ago, M$ introduced their "Agent" ActiveX component that allowed you to have a little character (like those annoying M$ Office Assistants) that you could script to make talk. I thought that this was pretty neat, but it required a slow download, and the performance was hideous. Also, you were stuck with the characters that M$ developed. With Flash working better with CF, you could create some compelling agents, IM programs, distance learning tools, training programs, and more. There is probably a lot of potential here that we have not even thought of yet. So the Flash potential and also UltraDev's *potential* have me excited. Those are my hopes for CF. My fears are: - How well will CF be integrated with UltraDev? - How well will CF be integrated with Flash? And I don't mean little Harpoon calendars. - Will MM fix/improve the advanced security features of CF? The "Users -- Groups -- Policies" security model is cludgy. - Will MM or Version 5.0 improve/automate remote file management? By this I mean that I would like for CF to allow me to manage files on the server much like FrontPage extensions do. You rename a file, and all of the links to the file get renamed. FP is a newbie tool, but this is a HUGE time saver when you have a really big site to manage. - Will MM lower the cost of the server? The pro version should cost $599.00. - How will the real world performance be with the Java-based "NEO" (CF version 6.0). I know they say it is faster, but I am just worried. - How soon will 5.0 be out? User defined functions and querying a query will be awesome. The User defined functions alone will add tremendously to the CF community once you can download custom functions (loan calculators, etc.). Just my 2 cents. John McKown, Owner Delaware.Net, Inc. 30 Old Rudnick Lane, Suite 200 Dover, DE 19901 phone: 302-736-5515 toll free: 888-432-7965 fax: 302-736-5945 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
On 4/20/01, Joseph Grossberg penned: Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? All of the above. :) -- Bud Schneehagen - Tropical Web Creations _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ColdFusion Solutions / eCommerce Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.twcreations.com/ 954.721.3452 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
I have only dabbled in other programming languages, but from what I can see, CF does most everything the others do, but does it easier. The high cost keeps it from being as popular as ASP and others. I know lots of developers who are spending lots of time learning PHP since the Enterprise version of CF is just too expensive to put on the server. There is just not enough demand for a higher priced account. Too bad Allaire/Macr... There are a lot of potential clients out there if it were just more affordable. Chris Giminez Cyber Scriber I probably should not join this particular thread because I will probably be seen as very biased BUT. But I am a relative newbie as an employee of Allaire now Macromedia. My experience with using ColdFusion and briefly trying ASP is more relevant since I have used ColdFusion since late 1995-96. In reality ColdFusion should have died long ago as it has an appreciable up front cost. But it did not die in the face of alternatives that have no up front costs. In fact rather than ceasing to exist it grew exponentially in use. Also, the ColdFusion community has never seemed small to me as I struggled with and was presented with solutions to challenging issues, time and time again. Now, we have the honeymoon and final marriage of Allaire and Macromedia. I do not know what will eventually come out of this but I do know it will be fed and nurtured with ideas from all the worldwide developers and users of both former Macromedia and Allaire products and I do know that we are only limited by our own imaginations. My personal opinion is that now would definitely be the wrong time to move away from ColdFusion for anyone with a desire to be involved in the future of the Internet and the Web. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt Macromedia Consulting Tel 562.243.6255 Fax 401.696.4335 http://www.macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
The cost of PHP versus CF not counting server license is not that far off. If you want top of the line performance with ZendCache you will need to pay a hefty price (www.zend.com). If you want to use Zend's php editor you have to pay a price too. The caching system is part of CF already. WIth JSP, Level 4 JDBC drivers will cost from several hundred to thousands depending on your database and number of connections. That alone will overshadow the cost a professional license. None of the open source solutions are free or even close to free to get the performance and connectivity of a CF enterprise or even professional edition. I think what it comes down to is stability and how you use the products. PHP doesn't have a nice error catching system like JSP or CF. JSP has shown to be the slowest of all platforms. PHP for windows is as buggy as your backyard so switching to linux/bsd means extra training/cost to your company. But I do agree allaire should setup to the plate and at least give an estimate on the CF 6.0/JSP edition timeline. Even an estimate will satisfy a lot of us. xing - Original Message - From: "Chris Giminez" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? I have only dabbled in other programming languages, but from what I can see, CF does most everything the others do, but does it easier. The high cost keeps it from being as popular as ASP and others. I know lots of developers who are spending lots of time learning PHP since the Enterprise version of CF is just too expensive to put on the server. There is just not enough demand for a higher priced account. Too bad Allaire/Macr... There are a lot of potential clients out there if it were just more affordable. Chris Giminez Cyber Scriber I probably should not join this particular thread because I will probably be seen as very biased BUT. But I am a relative newbie as an employee of Allaire now Macromedia. My experience with using ColdFusion and briefly trying ASP is more relevant since I have used ColdFusion since late 1995-96. In reality ColdFusion should have died long ago as it has an appreciable up front cost. But it did not die in the face of alternatives that have no up front costs. In fact rather than ceasing to exist it grew exponentially in use. Also, the ColdFusion community has never seemed small to me as I struggled with and was presented with solutions to challenging issues, time and time again. Now, we have the honeymoon and final marriage of Allaire and Macromedia. I do not know what will eventually come out of this but I do know it will be fed and nurtured with ideas from all the worldwide developers and users of both former Macromedia and Allaire products and I do know that we are only limited by our own imaginations. My personal opinion is that now would definitely be the wrong time to move away from ColdFusion for anyone with a desire to be involved in the future of the Internet and the Web. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt Macromedia Consulting Tel 562.243.6255 Fax 401.696.4335 http://www.macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and y
Re: Is CF still relevant?
No one accused CF of being cheap to host but the fact is that it was never targeted to the individual developer. CF Enterprise is expensive, but I am sure others can attest to this -it is still possible to develop killer applications using CF Professional. CF may not be the best tool for the solo consultant, working hand to mouth on projects - but it is still relevant at the enterprise level. Large companies are using it all over the place - some exclusively, some not. I have been using CF since version 1.0 in 1995. I like it. I feel that I can do wonders with it. But I am not closing my eyes or sticking my head in the sand. It is still relevant, but at the same time I am looking at JSP as an augmentation of my skill set, particularly with Neo ahead of us. Dave Watts -and even Ben Forta have made cases for when and where to use CF. Sometimes it isn't the best tool for the job at hand. In many others, in the hands of skilled developers who understand how architect applications, using components and extensions, it can be a very powerful glue tying things together. I see a distinct parrallel in the heyday of the X-Base languages such as Clipper, and the development of the user community as well as the third party component market that came with it during the late '80s and early '90s. I just hope that Macromedia is a better company to have CF at this stage of develoment than Computer Associates was when Clipper was purchased. DC - Original Message - From: "Chris Giminez" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 15:54 Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? I have only dabbled in other programming languages, but from what I can see, CF does most everything the others do, but does it easier. The high cost keeps it from being as popular as ASP and others. I know lots of developers who are spending lots of time learning PHP since the Enterprise version of CF is just too expensive to put on the server. There is just not enough demand for a higher priced account. Too bad Allaire/Macr... There are a lot of potential clients out there if it were just more affordable. Chris Giminez Cyber Scriber I probably should not join this particular thread because I will probably be seen as very biased BUT. But I am a relative newbie as an employee of Allaire now Macromedia. My experience with using ColdFusion and briefly trying ASP is more relevant since I have used ColdFusion since late 1995-96. In reality ColdFusion should have died long ago as it has an appreciable up front cost. But it did not die in the face of alternatives that have no up front costs. In fact rather than ceasing to exist it grew exponentially in use. Also, the ColdFusion community has never seemed small to me as I struggled with and was presented with solutions to challenging issues, time and time again. Now, we have the honeymoon and final marriage of Allaire and Macromedia. I do not know what will eventually come out of this but I do know it will be fed and nurtured with ideas from all the worldwide developers and users of both former Macromedia and Allaire products and I do know that we are only limited by our own imaginations. My personal opinion is that now would definitely be the wrong time to move away from ColdFusion for anyone with a desire to be involved in the future of the Internet and the Web. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt Macromedia Consulting Tel 562.243.6255 Fax 401.696.4335 http://www.macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or
Re: Is CF still relevant?
- Original Message - From: "David E. Crawford" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 11:08 PM No one accused CF of being cheap to host but the fact is that it was never targeted to the individual developer. CF Enterprise is expensive, but I am sure others can attest to this -it is still possible to develop killer applications using CF Professional. CF may not be the best tool for the solo consultant, working hand to mouth on projects - but it is still What are the thoughts about the future competition from "ASP.NET" - especially since Macromedia will clearly have to support both CF and ASP.NET in one way or the other. I would always go with CF all things being equal, e.g. using my own servers, but a great irritation over here in Britain, is that most hosting providers for Windows NT/2000 will not support CF - only ASP. That means that is someone wants CF at a co-lo centre - it isn't good. To be controversial for a moment - maybe Macromedia should do a deal with Microsoft to integrate a version Cold Fusion services directly in the Windows 2000 O/S? After all - Macromedia are fundamentally a web development tool company, and M$ want to sell Windows 2000 to as many people as possible - and the market for CF developers expands many times. As an aside - anyone know of any good CF hosting companies over here? Otherwise, which are the best of the well connected ones in the US? Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Is CF still relevant?
Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
Joseph Grossberg wrote: But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? Well it depends on the individual doesn't it? If you have projects you can't build in CF or you feel like you're wasting your time then perhaps it better to work in another language if that system provides you with the tools you need to complete the tasks you have. If you can build your projects in CF and you are happy using CF then I don't see the point in "grass is greener" type introspection. And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, The day you get a project that you can't build in CF is probably the point at which you should look at another solution. Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Because I can build complex, modular systems quickly. I can't do the same in PHP (modular yes but not anywhere near as quickly) -- It's amazing that movies can still make people who sit on their asses in front of a computer seem like they're doing something cool and dangerous. Andrew O'Hehir The Matrix review - Salon Magazine email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.pixelgeek.com/ ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
I've done sites in ASP, CF and JSP. Each has certain advantages, but for the *majority* of sites I've done CF has been the best tool for the job. And that is what will keep it relevant, for at least a good while longer. But, it is always advisable to learn as many ways as possible to get the job done. Greg -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
|Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? I just started learning CF, I mean, JUST :) In fact I posted my first question on the list about server trouble while trying my first example codes from a book ;) I haven't even figured out how to connect to a database using CF yet grin However, I thought long and hard before trying CF, and it is kinda my last attempt at learning a programming language. I am a graphics/front-end type of web designer. I detest Javascript, and I can't wrap my brain around Perl for some reason--at least not through self-study. I thought about learning ASP or PHP, but just looking at the code make my brain freeze. So, I figured if I couldn't learn CF, I should just give it up and concentrate on my graphics abilities. I'm basically trying to figure out if that side of my brain is just dead, or what...by trying to learn CF. My main concern with CF, is that is not as widely available in "affordable" hosting. What "affordable" means to one person is way out of reach with another, but my point is, all *NIX servers have Perl (most have PHP), all NT servers have ASP. You can find relatively cheap hosting, $10-$20, with both, but add CF to the mix and you're looking way above that in general. IMHO, if CF weren't so durned expensive to put on a machine, it would be more widespread with programmers and users, companies or individuals who cater more to small business, or who are doing their own personal pages. Perl and PHP gained a huge following because it was free, easily obtainable, and they are great programming languages. Someone who was making a 6 figure website *and* a person who hosted their webpage on Hypermart could use Perl. I'm not familiar with ASP enough to know why it's so widely used. Many people steered me to CF because it was supposedly the easiest language to learn (we'll see---if *I* can learn it, then it's easy, LOL). Sometimes I wonder if I am wasting my time, if I shouldn't just go to a class to learn perl, since that is what I have the most use for, but--well, I'm giving it a try. :) Just my 2 cents, Gina ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
A couple thoughts... Don't you think Neo/Java will enable CF to pull in other developers and let those of us that know Java expand what we would typically do with CF? Also, don't you think that Allaire now being Macromedia will enhance it's staying power and entice more developers to learn CF? At our company we use CF because it is fast to develop with. No other language we've found has been so fast AND powerful. Derek Hamilton Systems Developer - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
Joe, Great topic (but I'm sure it'll start getting flamed for not being in CF-Community). I'm sure many others here have been mulling over this question themselves, whether they admit it or not (depending on how hardcore CF they are... :) Our company has a lot of legacy code in CF, (almost all of it) due to a decision made a few years ago to use it. Due to the fact that its what I code in almost exclusively for maintenance of past projects, and projects in the immediate future, it IS what I'm most knowledgable in at the moment, (although I have done a few projects in ASP and Java as well) but I'm totally ready to start a newer, cleaner way of doing things (OOP specifically!!). I too, don't have a language preference and I recognize the beauty in some of the newer, competing solutions out there right now such as Java and .NET I've read a couple books and tutorials on .NET and its an obvious successor to web development as we know it today. Our company is planning to move towards .NET in the future, but I'm sure it will be a decently slow, painful process, due to all the legacy code, etc.. Can't wait to start coding in .NET for real, actual projects... Just my opinion. - Scott -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg To: CF-Talk Sent: 4/20/01 3:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
You make some assertions which are unfortunately, a bit short-sighted. First. Cold-fusion in and of itself cannot parse xml, but the MSXML parser can, and if I'm not mistaken, it IS accessible as a CFOBJECT. Second of all, ASP is kind of object oriented. You build COM objects and call them through your page. You can do that with CF as well. PHP is object oriented, but why would you bother with all that coding when you can create COM objects instead that are more accessible by other apps. JSP is good, but it's a pain to learn. Cold Fusion provides a great approace to providing rapid-application development that quite honestly php, asp, and jsp cannot compete with. A seasoned cold-fusion person can keep up to most tasks faster than any other. -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
I probably should not join this particular thread because I will probably be seen as very biased BUT. But I am a relative newbie as an employee of Allaire now Macromedia. My experience with using ColdFusion and briefly trying ASP is more relevant since I have used ColdFusion since late 1995-96. In reality ColdFusion should have died long ago as it has an appreciable up front cost. But it did not die in the face of alternatives that have no up front costs. In fact rather than ceasing to exist it grew exponentially in use. Also, the ColdFusion community has never seemed small to me as I struggled with and was presented with solutions to challenging issues, time and time again. Now, we have the honeymoon and final marriage of Allaire and Macromedia. I do not know what will eventually come out of this but I do know it will be fed and nurtured with ideas from all the worldwide developers and users of both former Macromedia and Allaire products and I do know that we are only limited by our own imaginations. My personal opinion is that now would definitely be the wrong time to move away from ColdFusion for anyone with a desire to be involved in the future of the Internet and the Web. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt Macromedia Consulting Tel 562.243.6255 Fax 401.696.4335 http://www.macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
I feel the same way. I have started coding in ASP.Net just learn it, and I think it is really cool. I too have been playing the game of, 'what will happen to CF now' or 'should I stay doing CF or should I move on to something else?'. I am really starting to contemplate this more now, since I lost my CF job and there is hardly any CF jobs here in the Dallas(Texas) area and there are many more ASP/Java type jobs. I would take a Jr Java job now when I probably would not have 6 months ago. My 2 cents. -- Original Message -- From: Scott Becker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:45:22 -0400 Joe, Great topic (but I'm sure it'll start getting flamed for not being in CF-Community). I'm sure many others here have been mulling over this question themselves, whether they admit it or not (depending on how hardcore CF they are... :) Our company has a lot of legacy code in CF, (almost all of it) due to a decision made a few years ago to use it. Due to the fact that its what I code in almost exclusively for maintenance of past projects, and projects in the immediate future, it IS what I'm most knowledgable in at the moment, (although I have done a few projects in ASP and Java as well) but I'm totally ready to start a newer, cleaner way of doing things (OOP specifically!!). I too, don't have a language preference and I recognize the beauty in some of the newer, competing solutions out there right now such as Java and .NET I've read a couple books and tutorials on .NET and its an obvious successor to web development as we know it today. Our company is planning to move towards .NET in the future, but I'm sure it will be a decently slow, painful process, due to all the legacy code, etc.. Can't wait to start coding in .NET for real, actual projects... Just my opinion. - Scott -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg To: CF-Talk Sent: 4/20/01 3:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
I dont have a problem parsing XML with CF, although no server side scripting language like cf or asp and so on is ever going to be the best tool for that. Any programming language can be object oriented, it's whether or not the language designer forces the situation as in Java's case. I can make a kick ass OOP Basic program with goto's, who cares? You want OO on CF, check Fusebox or cfObjects. Lastly, Linux used to have a real tiny community too. That does not seem to negatively affect the success of Linux today. The only thing that can be said about a programming environment with a small community, is that is has a small community. Why do I use it? It works. jon - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
You brought up and interesting point, and Neo will be a big boost to CF, IMHO, and I'll be psyched when it arrives. But if someone knows Java, why not just use JRun at that point? Also, Allaire doesn't seem to have a concrete date for CF Server 5 release, much less Neo (a.k.a. version 6). However, while I think that some additional stuff CF does is good (e.g. integration with Flash; I think the MM/Allaire merger is very complimentary), it seems like it's just way behind on other things. I mean, even Perl programmers can use OOP and XML if they want to, but it's not necessary. With CF, you don't even have that option. ColdFusion just seems like it's always a step (or more) behind the competing technologies. I also don't like the fact that we're basically depending on one vendor for everything except a smattering of custom tags and minor third-party applications. If something in Perl or Python doesn't work, someone fixes it soon. If something in ASP or Java doesn't work, then MS or Sun fixes it (or another company will sell it, because the market is large enough). But since Allaire is solely responsible for CF Studio, CF Server, Spectra, JRun, etc., it seems like we're putting all our eggs in one basket. Like, "Oh, your upgrade to CF Server 4.5 broke your CFHTTP / CFFTP / CFMAIL tag? Well you have to downgrade to 4.0 or just wait ... until ... whenever we finally release 5.0 ... assuming it's fixed then." Like I said, I think CF has its plusses and minuses, but it just seems less compelling to me by the month. Joe From: "Derek Hamilton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:40:36 -0700 A couple thoughts... Don't you think Neo/Java will enable CF to pull in other developers and let those of us that know Java expand what we would typically do with CF? Also, don't you think that Allaire now being Macromedia will enhance it's staying power and entice more developers to learn CF? At our company we use CF because it is fast to develop with. No other language we've found has been so fast AND powerful. Derek Hamilton Systems Developer - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Is CF still relevant?
Costas Piliotis wrote: First. Cold-fusion in and of itself cannot parse xml, but the MSXML parser can, and if I'm not mistaken, it IS accessible as a CFOBJECT. There is also no reason why you couldn't just connect to Saxon (as a servlet) and in the future this might be the simplest approach with the plans for Neo etc -- Oh, dear! This high infant-mortality rate is a real devil when it comes to staging quality children's theatre. Blackadder (via Ben Elton) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.pixelgeek.com/ ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
1) "JSP is good, but it's a pain to learn." -- would it not be worth the extra time invested to learn it? 2) "Cold Fusion provides a great approace to providing rapid-application development that quite honestly php, asp, and jsp cannot compete with. A seasoned cold-fusion person can keep up to most tasks faster than any other." -- I don't disagree with that, when it comes to building web sites with database-driven content. However, CF seems to fall behind when it comes to other tasks that you might want a server to do, in my experience. If you're calling the better-suited things in as a CF object (e.g. Java, COM, MSXML) to do things, then why not just use those technologies (or families of technologies) and skip the CF entirely? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
Small Community - Is a good thing in my opinion, growing at a steady rate is good, if the growing is well thought out and thoroughly implied. I can say this much from experience, when I first started working with CF was in the summer of 96, it was a ~SMALL~ community!!! btc -Original Message- From: Jon Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? I dont have a problem parsing XML with CF, although no server side scripting language like cf or asp and so on is ever going to be the best tool for that. Any programming language can be object oriented, it's whether or not the language designer forces the situation as in Java's case. I can make a kick ass OOP Basic program with goto's, who cares? You want OO on CF, check Fusebox or cfObjects. Lastly, Linux used to have a real tiny community too. That does not seem to negatively affect the success of Linux today. The only thing that can be said about a programming environment with a small community, is that is has a small community. Why do I use it? It works. jon - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a novice again)? Is it because your ccompany's legacy code is all in CF? Is it because you genuinely think that ColdFusion is, generally speaking, the best solution for web application development in 2001? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
However, while I think that some additional stuff CF does is good (e.g. integration with Flash; I think the MM/Allaire merger is very complimentary), it seems like it's just way behind on other things. And lets not forget Shockwave while we're at it. It doesn't get as much attention as Flash (even from Macromedia oddly enough) but I've built some very interesting front-ends for Cold Fusion systems using it. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Is CF still relevant?
different tools suit different needs. i use CF because it's a rapid application devleopment platform. it's easy to find CF programmers. GREAT CF developers are cheaper than GREAT java developers. i'm not sure what i missed, but can you please explain why CF *can't* use XML? You wrote: "even Perl programmers can use OOP and XML if they want to, but it's not necessary. With CF, you don't even have that option." i've used XML with CF for almost two years now, so i'm intrigued. i've developed sites using CF, ASP, Java, Delphi COM objects, etc. *personally* if i had a very transaction-intense site i think i would go with weblogic or atg's dynamo. but i've only needed something that "industrial" once or twice. anyway...there are always as many opinions as there are people :). -Original Message- From: Joseph Grossberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? You brought up and interesting point, and Neo will be a big boost to CF, IMHO, and I'll be psyched when it arrives. But if someone knows Java, why not just use JRun at that point? Also, Allaire doesn't seem to have a concrete date for CF Server 5 release, much less Neo (a.k.a. version 6). However, while I think that some additional stuff CF does is good (e.g. integration with Flash; I think the MM/Allaire merger is very complimentary), it seems like it's just way behind on other things. I mean, even Perl programmers can use OOP and XML if they want to, but it's not necessary. With CF, you don't even have that option. ColdFusion just seems like it's always a step (or more) behind the competing technologies. I also don't like the fact that we're basically depending on one vendor for everything except a smattering of custom tags and minor third-party applications. If something in Perl or Python doesn't work, someone fixes it soon. If something in ASP or Java doesn't work, then MS or Sun fixes it (or another company will sell it, because the market is large enough). But since Allaire is solely responsible for CF Studio, CF Server, Spectra, JRun, etc., it seems like we're putting all our eggs in one basket. Like, "Oh, your upgrade to CF Server 4.5 broke your CFHTTP / CFFTP / CFMAIL tag? Well you have to downgrade to 4.0 or just wait ... until ... whenever we finally release 5.0 ... assuming it's fixed then." Like I said, I think CF has its plusses and minuses, but it just seems less compelling to me by the month. Joe From: "Derek Hamilton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:40:36 -0700 A couple thoughts... Don't you think Neo/Java will enable CF to pull in other developers and let those of us that know Java expand what we would typically do with CF? Also, don't you think that Allaire now being Macromedia will enhance it's staying power and entice more developers to learn CF? At our company we use CF because it is fast to develop with. No other language we've found has been so fast AND powerful. Derek Hamilton Systems Developer - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something n
Re: Is CF still relevant?
I do agree with you on the bugs/fixes issue. In fact I have been testing CF 5.0b3 recently and found out that a custom tag we wrote does not work correctly with 5.0. If we can't get that tag to work that will be a big deal for us. But I have to rely on Allaire only because of the cfx environment and CF's processing. (I know, it could be written as a COM component but that wasn't my decision). My question is, are you trying to rationalize some other decision or something and just using CF for the mental validation? What's up? What are you doing that CF doesn't excel at as much as you would like? Derek Hamilton Systems Developer - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? You brought up and interesting point, and Neo will be a big boost to CF, IMHO, and I'll be psyched when it arrives. But if someone knows Java, why not just use JRun at that point? Also, Allaire doesn't seem to have a concrete date for CF Server 5 release, much less Neo (a.k.a. version 6). However, while I think that some additional stuff CF does is good (e.g. integration with Flash; I think the MM/Allaire merger is very complimentary), it seems like it's just way behind on other things. I mean, even Perl programmers can use OOP and XML if they want to, but it's not necessary. With CF, you don't even have that option. ColdFusion just seems like it's always a step (or more) behind the competing technologies. I also don't like the fact that we're basically depending on one vendor for everything except a smattering of custom tags and minor third-party applications. If something in Perl or Python doesn't work, someone fixes it soon. If something in ASP or Java doesn't work, then MS or Sun fixes it (or another company will sell it, because the market is large enough). But since Allaire is solely responsible for CF Studio, CF Server, Spectra, JRun, etc., it seems like we're putting all our eggs in one basket. Like, "Oh, your upgrade to CF Server 4.5 broke your CFHTTP / CFFTP / CFMAIL tag? Well you have to downgrade to 4.0 or just wait ... until ... whenever we finally release 5.0 ... assuming it's fixed then." Like I said, I think CF has its plusses and minuses, but it just seems less compelling to me by the month. Joe From: "Derek Hamilton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is CF still relevant? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:40:36 -0700 A couple thoughts... Don't you think Neo/Java will enable CF to pull in other developers and let those of us that know Java expand what we would typically do with CF? Also, don't you think that Allaire now being Macromedia will enhance it's staying power and entice more developers to learn CF? At our company we use CF because it is fast to develop with. No other language we've found has been so fast AND powerful. Derek Hamilton Systems Developer - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Is CF still relevant? Now, before you dismiss this as a troll, please let me elaborate. This isn't so much an instigation or a whine as it is a call for us to take a step back and reevalutate things periodically. Over the course of my career as a web programmer/developer, I have worked with a variety of sever-side languages and technologies: ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl and Python. I like some more than others, but I'm not an evangelist for any; they each have their uses. And I recognize some of CF's strengths: easy to learn for people who know only tag-based HTML or don't have significant programming experience; built-in admin tool; specialized editor; comes with pre-built tags and web-based administrator. There are also major flaws: broken/sketchy tags; no XML parsing; not OOP; relatively small community; etc. Right now, I work at a web development firm that is primarily "a CF house" (besides me). Our more senior programmers are looking at honing their CF skills, while our less experienced webmasters are trying to learn ColdFusion. But, I can't help but wonder whether they are wasting their time. Would they be better off spending their time learning ASP, Java or another non-CF solution? Why or why not? And how would we tell if and when it was time to give up CF and try something else, as all but the most stubborn experts in also-ran languages (Ada, SmallTalk), applications (Netscape, Lotus Notes) and Operating Systems (Amiga) have resignedly done? Lastly, why do *you* still use CF? Is it because it's what you're best at, and you don't want to try something new (where, temporarily, you'd be a
Re: Is CF still relevant?
1) "JSP is good, but it's a pain to learn." -- would it not be worth the extra time invested to learn it? Absolutely. The same can be said for .NET but its not because the languages are superior but more of an ability to provide solutions to broader range of clients. If you're calling the better-suited things in as a CF object (e.g. Java, COM, MSXML) to do things, then why not just use those technologies (or families of technologies) and skip the CF entirely? Because by doing that, you lose the rapid development capabilities provided by CF. I've used CF in conjunction with COM and, more specifically, the MS XML parser quite effectively. Would I say that ASP would've been better suited for the job? Absolutely not. CF worked admirably and I reaped the rewards of turning the code around *very* quickly. CF is not the end-all, be-all of web languages but if I can leverage to provide a good solution, I'll select it over something else any day. Rey Bango Team Allaire... - Original Message - From: "Joseph Grossberg" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "CF-Talk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Is CF still relevant? 1) "JSP is good, but it's a pain to learn." -- would it not be worth the extra time invested to learn it? 2) "Cold Fusion provides a great approace to providing rapid-application development that quite honestly php, asp, and jsp cannot compete with. A seasoned cold-fusion person can keep up to most tasks faster than any other." -- I don't disagree with that, when it comes to building web sites with database-driven content. However, CF seems to fall behind when it comes to other tasks that you might want a server to do, in my experience. If you're calling the better-suited things in as a CF object (e.g. Java, COM, MSXML) to do things, then why not just use those technologies (or families of technologies) and skip the CF entirely? Joe ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
