RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Eric J. Hoffman
This thread has been invaluable as we have been struggling with
estimating, etc.

We've been using CF since 3.1.  So we use it day to day, no doubt. 





Eric J. Hoffman
Managing Partner
2081 Industrial Blvd
StillwaterMN55082
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www: www.ejhassociates.com
tel: 651.207.1526
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-Original Message-

From: Earl, George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:12 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two

This has been a really interesting thread, in part because I've seen
several messages from  list members whose names I did not recognize. Are
you all new members or just lurking most of the time? And do you use CF
in your day-to-day business?

George




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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Matt Robertson
On 12/29/05, Mike Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Only one of the clients I've spoken to in the last couple of years was ok
> with hourly rates. Maybe it's the mix of clients I see, but the rest all see
> charging by the hour as something of an open cheque. ...
> They want to have a cap on what they are going to pay.

Absolutely.  If you go hourly your clients have to either know your
work from past experience, and already trust you, or know you from a
referrral, or be impressed by their meeting with you.  If I was just
starting out I don't think I could get away with hourly billing.

> So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big
> margin for error, then add another margin for error.

That was my 'old' way of doing it and I tell clients right up front
that if they want a fixed cost this is how I will derive it,
emphasizing that while an hourly rate on a project is scary, if they
want a fixed cost this is how its figured up in the business.  They
can avoid the overage guesstimates by having faith, paying only for
what they incur and very likely saving money.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Mark A Kruger
tanks!

-Original Message-
From: Yves Arsenault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:48 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two


I am so very late on this thread

Very interesting

Mark, great post on the blog I plan to re-read it.

Thx,

Yves


On 12/30/05, Mark A Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This process is of great interest to me. We work at it from month to month
> as our business grows and we do project estimates based on hourly ranges.
I
> wrote a blog about it recently and it has some excellent comments attached
> about some other similar methods. I often refer potential customers to
this
> blog so they can see (in the spirit of openess) how our numbers are
derived.
>
>
http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com/index.cfm?mode=alias&alias=project%20estimates
>
> The larger companies don't like the "range" so I use my methodology and
> simply offer the maximum as a flat amount - which they use as a basis for
a
> P.O.  Since we are usually doing projects under 100,000 this is fine with
> them.  Needless to say I like the larger companies (ha).
>
> That being said, I have several long standing customers who have been with
> me for a very long time.  Yes, they can be frustrating to deal with, but I
> remember when they were our bread and butter.  I try to work with them and
> help to feel like things have not changed too much.
>
> -Mark



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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Yves Arsenault
I am so very late on this thread

Very interesting

Mark, great post on the blog I plan to re-read it.

Thx,

Yves


On 12/30/05, Mark A Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This process is of great interest to me. We work at it from month to month
> as our business grows and we do project estimates based on hourly ranges. I
> wrote a blog about it recently and it has some excellent comments attached
> about some other similar methods. I often refer potential customers to this
> blog so they can see (in the spirit of openess) how our numbers are derived.
>
> http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com/index.cfm?mode=alias&alias=project%20estimates
>
> The larger companies don't like the "range" so I use my methodology and
> simply offer the maximum as a flat amount - which they use as a basis for a
> P.O.  Since we are usually doing projects under 100,000 this is fine with
> them.  Needless to say I like the larger companies (ha).
>
> That being said, I have several long standing customers who have been with
> me for a very long time.  Yes, they can be frustrating to deal with, but I
> remember when they were our bread and butter.  I try to work with them and
> help to feel like things have not changed too much.
>
> -Mark

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Bryan Stevenson
> This has been a really interesting thread, in part because I've seen several
> messages from  list members whose names I did not recognize. Are you all new
> members or just lurking most of the time? And do you use CF in your
> day-to-day business?
>
> George

Well I'm not a lurkerbut I have used CF full-time since 1998 version 
3.1so yeah...I use it in my day-to-day business ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Bryan Stevenson
> Only one of the clients I've spoken to in the last couple of years was ok
> with hourly rates. Maybe it's the mix of clients I see, but the rest all see
> charging by the hour as something of an open cheque.

hehe...an open cheque for the always open project scope seems fair ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Earl, George
This has been a really interesting thread, in part because I've seen several
messages from  list members whose names I did not recognize. Are you all new
members or just lurking most of the time? And do you use CF in your
day-to-day business?

George


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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Mark A Kruger
This process is of great interest to me. We work at it from month to month
as our business grows and we do project estimates based on hourly ranges. I
wrote a blog about it recently and it has some excellent comments attached
about some other similar methods. I often refer potential customers to this
blog so they can see (in the spirit of openess) how our numbers are derived.

http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com/index.cfm?mode=alias&alias=project%20estimates

The larger companies don't like the "range" so I use my methodology and
simply offer the maximum as a flat amount - which they use as a basis for a
P.O.  Since we are usually doing projects under 100,000 this is fine with
them.  Needless to say I like the larger companies (ha).

That being said, I have several long standing customers who have been with
me for a very long time.  Yes, they can be frustrating to deal with, but I
remember when they were our bread and butter.  I try to work with them and
help to feel like things have not changed too much.

-Mark



-Original Message-
From: Les Mizzell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:02 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two


> So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big
> margin for error, then add another margin for error.

Though I typically bid "per project", I spend a lot of time figuring out
exactly how many hours it's going to take me to complete something, and
I've gotten to the point where I'm usually very close if the client gets
me the stuff I need by their deadline and then leaves me alone to get
their job done.

I've also built up a decent library of widgets (press release apps,
email newsletters, event calendars - along with their admin page - that
sort of thing) that I can just pop into a site, add the proper CSS and
it's done - and I've got a standard charge for those particular widgets.
An event calendar is always going to be $xx.xx, as long as the
functionality stays pretty much the same as my pre-built widget.

I do add in a certain amount of "slop" to allow for a margin of error,
and there's also certain clients that have a per hour "a**hole fee" that
gets factored in as well, because I know it's going to take twice as
long to get their job done because they won't leave me alone long enough
to make any real progress.



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client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Will Tomlinson
> The problem is for the small guy to get those good clients because 
> when you need business you will do about anything to get it, which 
> leads to trouble and you end up with clients who are the "buy here - 
> pay here (aka bad credit car buyers)" types of customers. 

AMEN BROTHER! Right on!

:)

WIll

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread Les Mizzell
> So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big
> margin for error, then add another margin for error.

Though I typically bid "per project", I spend a lot of time figuring out 
exactly how many hours it's going to take me to complete something, and 
I've gotten to the point where I'm usually very close if the client gets 
me the stuff I need by their deadline and then leaves me alone to get 
their job done.

I've also built up a decent library of widgets (press release apps, 
email newsletters, event calendars - along with their admin page - that 
sort of thing) that I can just pop into a site, add the proper CSS and 
it's done - and I've got a standard charge for those particular widgets. 
An event calendar is always going to be $xx.xx, as long as the 
functionality stays pretty much the same as my pre-built widget.

I do add in a certain amount of "slop" to allow for a margin of error, 
and there's also certain clients that have a per hour "a**hole fee" that 
gets factored in as well, because I know it's going to take twice as 
long to get their job done because they won't leave me alone long enough 
to make any real progress.

~|
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread James Holmes
AMEN! I gave up on my computer hardware side-business after dealing
with just one of these. I should have simply refused to sell them the
system rather than deal with all the problems that this person kept
causing.

On 12/30/05, Jennifer Gavin-Wear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A few years ago I ran a small IT dealership.  I learnt that problem
> customers stay problem customers, things never get better.  And the longer
> you keep them on your books the worse it gets.  While I was dealing with the
> idiots (and that's being kind) my competition was getting the good stuff.
> Had I had more sense and experience I would of dumped these idiots very
> early on and they would of been knocking on the door of my competitors and
> giving them the grief.
>
> Bad customers aren't just bad news because they pay late and their feedback
> to you is never good.  The longer you keep them on your books the longer
> they are bad mouthing you behind your back to other potential customers.  So
> get rid.

--
CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/

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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-30 Thread dave
Plus the ones you give good deals to or give them slack are the ones who you 
are constantly chasing for payments or whatever. I have a client right now that 
i gave 75% off price and a year and a half to pay and then they came back and 
tried to not pay and have been bad mouthing me to everyone because I got my 
attorney after them for payment, needless to say we are settling tomorrow and 
they are getting checkbook out but still a PITA. And then the clients who want 
to pay full price are the ones that are on time with payment and little or no 
hassle.

The problem is for the small guy to get those good clients because when you 
need business you will do about anything to get it, which leads to trouble and 
you end up with clients who are the "buy here - pay here (aka bad credit car 
buyers)" types of customers. And if you notice the busy shops or developers are 
the ones with a solid and firm price who don't discount everything which 
commands respect from the customers and they have far fewer hassles.

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/
http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: "Jennifer Gavin-Wear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 2:30 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two 

A few years ago I ran a small IT dealership. I learnt that problem
customers stay problem customers, things never get better. And the longer
you keep them on your books the worse it gets. While I was dealing with the
idiots (and that's being kind) my competition was getting the good stuff.
Had I had more sense and experience I would of dumped these idiots very
early on and they would of been knocking on the door of my competitors and
giving them the grief.

Bad customers aren't just bad news because they pay late and their feedback
to you is never good. The longer you keep them on your books the longer
they are bad mouthing you behind your back to other potential customers. So
get rid.

I currently charge 50% up front and 50% on completion for development based
on total project cost, not an hourly rate. The idea of the 10% on hold I
think is really good, but I think 90 days is a bit long and I'd probably go
for 30.

I'm seeing some extremely wide variances in project costs in the market.
>From the stupidly cheap (how can they live on that level) to the incredibly
expensive (the customer won't come back when he finds out he has been ripped
off). So I am wondering what realistic rates are in the UK and would
appreciate feedback.

Thanks,

Jenny



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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Jennifer Gavin-Wear
A few years ago I ran a small IT dealership.  I learnt that problem
customers stay problem customers, things never get better.  And the longer
you keep them on your books the worse it gets.  While I was dealing with the
idiots (and that's being kind) my competition was getting the good stuff.
Had I had more sense and experience I would of dumped these idiots very
early on and they would of been knocking on the door of my competitors and
giving them the grief.

Bad customers aren't just bad news because they pay late and their feedback
to you is never good.  The longer you keep them on your books the longer
they are bad mouthing you behind your back to other potential customers.  So
get rid.

I currently charge 50% up front and 50% on completion for development based
on total project cost, not an hourly rate.  The idea of the 10% on hold I
think is really good, but I think 90 days is a bit long and I'd probably go
for 30.

I'm seeing some extremely wide variances in project costs in the market.
>From the stupidly cheap (how can they live on that level) to the incredibly
expensive (the customer won't come back when he finds out he has been ripped
off).  So I am wondering what realistic rates are in the UK and would
appreciate feedback.

Thanks,

Jenny




~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Mike Kear
Only one of the clients I've spoken to in the last couple of years was ok
with hourly rates. Maybe it's the mix of clients I see, but the rest all see
charging by the hour as something of an open cheque.  Maybe they've all had
renovatoins done in their houses and seen the costs blow out that way.
They want to have a cap on what they are going to pay.

So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big
margin for error, then add another margin for error.

I have had no problem getting 50% on acceptance of my proposal,  40% on
launch of the site, and the client retains 10% until 90 days after site
launch - a period I call the warranty period.I found that helped them
feel happy with paying the 40% on launch, rather than saying "yes thats
nearly complete, but can you just do this or do that and we'll call it
done."They know they have some of my money to hold over my head as an
incentive to get all those little tweaks finished.

For my part, 10% is small enough an amount that i can walk away from it if
it becomes really necesary.  Like for example if the client keeps coming up
with one reason after another to keep me hanging around doing stuff for him
under the original contract.  (something that hasn't happened in this
business, but did happen frequently to me when I was running a telemarketing
call centre business years ago)

I am currently working on a project with many more milestones than "start"
and "launch" and "warranty end"  - it's got about 10 milestones with
payments attached, but I think one of the clincher deals was allowing the
client to retain part of the fee for 90 days after launch, so they can feel
sure I'm going to hang around to help them phase it all in and get it bedded
down.

In all these cases,  it's unnecessary because I WANT to hang around.  I WANT
to be getting more business from them, but they dont know that.   At that
point, I'm just another salesperson telling them a story.  The point of
allowing them to retain some of the money is that they dont have to figure
out whether I'm like their carpenter doing their house add-on - do a bit now
and come back next month to do a bit more - or whether I'm going to stay on
their job and get it finished for them.

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month



On 12/30/05, Aaron Rouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I used to do this, did it in 1/4s or 1/3s depending on the jobs.  However
> at
> some point in the past couple of years I have switched to strictly hourly
> rates.  I think once I started getting so busy, one of my clients is
> essentially a full time job at around 40 hours per week, is when I
> switched
> to strictly hourly rates.
>
> On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how and
> > how
> > many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of
> job
> > billed/paid.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
>
>


~|
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Matt Robertson
On 12/29/05, Les Mizzell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now there's a thought. Keeps your cash flow a little more regular too...

That has been a BIG benefit.  There is literally always money coming
in, and since its weekly the bites you take out of the client are
smaller, which seems to decrease the pain factor for them somewhat. 
Plus, if they get behind in a couple of payments it provides an easy
'resting place' for that job, where work resumes when the late
invoices are taken care of.  Keeps you from getting in too deep
without payment, and as importantly the client can easily understand
why work is not progressing, and knows what they need to do to pick it
back up again.  My long-term clients get some slack.  But I usually
won't cross 3 weeks.

Regular weekly billings can be problematic with large organizations
who always seem to have accounting departments staffed by chimps. 
Still, I place the burden of feeding the chimps bananas on the
department who has hired me, and they do, in general, deal with it
internally, which is as it should be.

If I were to go monthly that would mean I'd be working up to two
months for free before I had to cut someone off.  Past my pain
threshold.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

~|
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread John Paul Ashenfelter
On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how and how
> many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job
> billed/paid.

I've done progress- and frequency-based billing and prefer
frequency-based a lot (monthly is usually my default for established
clients).

One cardinal rule though, is to refuse the go-live code distribution
until you're paid. If it *has* to be released today, they'll find the
money.

I found it *extremely* effective to add hosting as a business b/c it
covers my biz hosting costs, makes me a small percentage, and means I
say when launch happens. Many smaller clients like that just as much
since it saves them the trouble of negotiating hosting agreements and
the crapshoot on lowest-bidder hosted web site support. Its a lot
easier for me too b/c I effectively can do shared hosting but all the
apps are mine -- no worrying about someone else screwing up the server
(of course it doesn't stop you from screwing it up yourself). There's
never any arguing w/ the tech support guys about access, etc. You can
find decent *dedicated* hosting (not virtual, not shared) that's more
than adequate for many smallbiz websites for <$200/mo (as low as
$89/mo for example with 1and1 on Linux).

--
John Paul Ashenfelter
CTO/Transitionpoint
(blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com
(email) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

~|
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Les Mizzell
> I sidestep this issue with weekly billings.  Each billing includes a
> shorthand, day-by-day "di this today" list.


Now there's a thought. Keeps your cash flow a little more regular too...

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Les Mizzell
Michael E. Carluen wrote:
> Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how and how
> many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job
> billed/paid.

It can vary a little per client, but unless it's somebody I know and 
love and do continual work with, I always get 30% upon approval of the 
site map and features and I make sure those features are chiseled in stone.

Due date for the next payment isn't something I've "hard coded" into the 
contracts. The client and I usually negotiate a point that we're both 
comfortable with. It really varies with the project. If it's a really 
large project that's going to take a very long time to complete, I may 
even do a few smaller payments along and along in the contract just to 
keep my cash flow going. I'm not going to build a five figure app (not 
that I get that many of these!) for somebody and wait until the end to 
see any income from it!

To me, it's really about finding a comfort level with a particular 
client. I know they want to see their project completed before they fork 
over too much $$, but I gotta eat while I'm working or I start to get 
cranky and my code starts to look a little weird...

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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Cornillon, Matthieu \(Consultant\)
All,

I don't have much more to add, except for some reinforcement of already
stated ideas.  My mother and step-father have been running very
successful engineering consulting firms out of their house for years,
and their advice to me has echoed what the folks on this list have said:

1) Never underbid.  You devalue yourself in the eyes of the market.  (To
drive this home, a story about a family friend who owned a winery: he
was having trouble with sales, despite consistently winning
competitions.  He raised his price about 35%, and sales went through the
roof.)

2) Bill one hourly rate.  Estimates of total job price should be based
on the number of hours you anticipate.  This way, if the client asks for
extra, you simply estimate the extra number of hours, and they pay for
that.  If it's a total job quote that is not explicitly based (i.e.,
noted in the contract) on the number of hours, it makes it a lot harder
to estimate add-ons.

3) Everything in writing up front, as detailed as possible.

4) Bill for the work you do.  If you quote 35 hours, bill 22 if you work
22 and 39 if you work 39.  It's usually a good idea to include something
that says: "will not go over unless client is first notified".  See
exception in number 6, below.

5) One sales technique is to provide the client with a menu.  As you all
know, "getting the job done" can mean a dozen different things for one
set of specifications.  For example, a simple web form might be made to
work, but adding JavaScript utilities that make keyboard navigation
easier might up the value of the tool.  So, you say, "x hours will get
you the basic form, but x+4 hours will get you these other features".
This can be tricky, though.

6) For those of you starting out: if you are worried that your rate
sounds too high, or that your overall job price is too stiff, don't
worry: you can lie!  What do I mean?  Let's say that you have decent
skills, but you are on your first job out and feel nervous charging
$1000 (20 hours at $50/hr) for a project because you aren't positive you
can deliver the quality you want to deliver in the hours you've laid
out.  You can just work overtime for free, but tell them that you did it
in the 20 hours.  You take the hit in the short run, but as you gain
experience and confidence, that goes away, and you don't have to deal
with changing your rate over time.  And if it takes you 60 hours
(barring any truly giant problems that pop up), you will have learned
better estimating skills!

HTH,
Matthieu

~|
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client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Bryan Stevenson
> The customer will do whatever you ALLOW them to do. It is the same old 
> adage... People get treated the way they ALLOW themselves to be treated.
>
> A client who wants to circumvent a sound business practice is not a client 
> that can be considered a good investment of your time.


Well said...if your client goes sideways...you weren't doing things right 
(well..most times anyways).

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Matt Robertson
On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how and how
> many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job
> billed/paid.

I sidestep this issue with weekly billings.  Each billing includes a
shorthand, day-by-day "di this today" list.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Bryan Stevenson
and further to what Lez has said

Some folks think it's harsh to use such strict change control.  I say no way. 
Clients end up appreciateing it because everything is so detailed they aren't 
left with any grey areasthey aren't left guessing what the outcome may 
be...it's right there in black and white...all changes documented...no 
confusion.

Just like being the grocery store...prices in stone...ya know aht ya get cause 
it says so right on the price tag for the product ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Les Mizzell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two


>> When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out load
>
> Yea, same here. But, I'm almost too busy now, so maybe it's time to
> raise rates a little bit. I don't back down on them for anybody.
>
> I now do most jobs in phases:
>
> 1. Meet with client and work out site map and site functionality
> 2. Draw up a detailed contract specifying deadlines for things and
>whom is supplying what.
>
> Two things I'm always careful about:
>
> a. Client is responsible for delivering *all* content to me by a
>specified date or that voids my "complete" deadline.
>
> b. I do a very detailed site map listing all features. If they try
>to sneak a single additional feature in after development has
>started, then it's an *addition*, is billed additionally and
>adds additional time to the "complete" date.
>
> 3.Once all the above is approved, I get a partial payment
>   (usually 1/3rd) before I do anything else. Until I get this
>   payment, they're not going to see a single layout, because
>   I had a client walk with my layouts, call me on the phone and
>   go "we've decided to try something else", and then *use* the
>   layouts for their site anyway. The partial payment is always
>   enough to cover the initial graphic design.
>
> 4. From there I plow into the site/application structure, CSS and
>all that other good stuff. At some point in the process, defined
>in the contract, I get another payment.
>
> 5. After it's all finished, unless it's a client I've worked with
>before and trust, it doesn't go live until I'm paid in full.
>
> I've only been ripped off once in the last 10 years - and I manged to
> sell the site in question to somebody else, so the system is working
> pretty good in my opinion.
>
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Bryan Stevenson
Glad to shed some lightbest of luck ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

~|
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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Adkins, Randy
I am considering going to a strict hourly basis.
Right now most of what I do is project based fee.
I usually do like what was mentioned previously,

1. Meet with client and discuss all requirements.
2. establish contract and get signatures.
3. request 25% of contract cost prior to any development work.
4. upon completing and prior to formal testing, request 
50% of contract cost.
5. upon acceptance and prior to delivery, the remaining 
25% should be paid.


Now there was one client I did 33% at start and the remaining
at acceptance and prior to delivery.

So far it has worked for me.


-Original Message-
From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 1:38 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two

I used to do this, did it in 1/4s or 1/3s depending on the jobs.
However at some point in the past couple of years I have switched to
strictly hourly rates.  I think once I started getting so busy, one of
my clients is essentially a full time job at around 40 hours per week,
is when I switched to strictly hourly rates.

On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how 
> and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 
> 33.3% of job billed/paid.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>
>




~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Aaron Rouse
I used to do this, did it in 1/4s or 1/3s depending on the jobs.  However at
some point in the past couple of years I have switched to strictly hourly
rates.  I think once I started getting so busy, one of my clients is
essentially a full time job at around 40 hours per week, is when I switched
to strictly hourly rates.

On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how and
> how
> many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job
> billed/paid.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>
>


~|
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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Michael E. Carluen
Les, interesting point on progress payments.  I'm curious as to how and how
many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job
billed/paid.

Thanks,
Michael



-Original Message-
From: Les Mizzell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:09 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two

> When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out
load

Yea, same here. But, I'm almost too busy now, so maybe it's time to 
raise rates a little bit. I don't back down on them for anybody.

I now do most jobs in phases:

1. Meet with client and work out site map and site functionality
2. Draw up a detailed contract specifying deadlines for things and
whom is supplying what.

Two things I'm always careful about:

a. Client is responsible for delivering *all* content to me by a
specified date or that voids my "complete" deadline.

b. I do a very detailed site map listing all features. If they try
to sneak a single additional feature in after development has
started, then it's an *addition*, is billed additionally and
adds additional time to the "complete" date.

3.Once all the above is approved, I get a partial payment
   (usually 1/3rd) before I do anything else. Until I get this
   payment, they're not going to see a single layout, because
   I had a client walk with my layouts, call me on the phone and
   go "we've decided to try something else", and then *use* the
   layouts for their site anyway. The partial payment is always
   enough to cover the initial graphic design.

4. From there I plow into the site/application structure, CSS and
all that other good stuff. At some point in the process, defined
in the contract, I get another payment.

5. After it's all finished, unless it's a client I've worked with
before and trust, it doesn't go live until I'm paid in full.

I've only been ripped off once in the last 10 years - and I manged to 
sell the site in question to somebody else, so the system is working 
pretty good in my opinion.



~|
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Tim Claremont
The customer will do whatever you ALLOW them to do. It is the same old adage... 
People get treated the way they ALLOW themselves to be treated.

A client who wants to circumvent a sound business practice is not a client that 
can be considered a good investment of your time.

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Les Mizzell
> When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out load

Yea, same here. But, I'm almost too busy now, so maybe it's time to 
raise rates a little bit. I don't back down on them for anybody.

I now do most jobs in phases:

1. Meet with client and work out site map and site functionality
2. Draw up a detailed contract specifying deadlines for things and
whom is supplying what.

Two things I'm always careful about:

a. Client is responsible for delivering *all* content to me by a
specified date or that voids my "complete" deadline.

b. I do a very detailed site map listing all features. If they try
to sneak a single additional feature in after development has
started, then it's an *addition*, is billed additionally and
adds additional time to the "complete" date.

3.Once all the above is approved, I get a partial payment
   (usually 1/3rd) before I do anything else. Until I get this
   payment, they're not going to see a single layout, because
   I had a client walk with my layouts, call me on the phone and
   go "we've decided to try something else", and then *use* the
   layouts for their site anyway. The partial payment is always
   enough to cover the initial graphic design.

4. From there I plow into the site/application structure, CSS and
all that other good stuff. At some point in the process, defined
in the contract, I get another payment.

5. After it's all finished, unless it's a client I've worked with
before and trust, it doesn't go live until I'm paid in full.

I've only been ripped off once in the last 10 years - and I manged to 
sell the site in question to somebody else, so the system is working 
pretty good in my opinion.

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Tim Claremont
You could modify the Dilbert cartoon from a few weeks ago and just say that the 
discount will be between 1 and two million dollars.

It'll be a lot closer to the 'one dollar' than the 'two million' dollars, but 
it will definately be between those two numbers!

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Ali Awan
I loved reading Bryan’s post, about the grocery store analogy.  I’ve tried 
to dip my foot in the pool of freelancing, and I’ve turned down a lot for the 
same reasons.  Oh we just want to give this a try for a couple of months 
(without pay), and if it works out…..  Yeah, hopefully the homeless shelter 
has room for my family, while I’m developing your app.

I just wanted to thank Bryan, Matt, and John Paul.  All of your replies have 
given me confidence, and helped.

Right now, I’m helping a friend, which is how I will justify my low flat fee. 
 Plus I’m learning PHP while I’m doing it.  

Thanks again,
Ali

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Aaron Rouse
Well the best "sales person" is the one who makes each customer think they
are getting a deal better than anyone else could get there.

I charge different clients different rates but do not charge different rates
for types of work on the same project.

On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that
> they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think
> of!
> Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all
> glowy inside :O)
>
> Work:   £100,000,000
> Because it's you discount:  £99,000,000
>
> Total:  £1
>
> Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD
>
> Ade
>
>


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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Kevin Aebig
LOL... o my...

!K

-Original Message-
From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: December 29, 2005 10:45 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two

On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that
> they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think
of!
> Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all
> glowy inside :O)
>
> Work:   £100,000,000
> Because it's you discount:  £99,000,000
>
> Total:  £1
>
> Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD

Umm, actually I'd wonder about the quality of the code I'm getting
since your subtraction is off by... ummm. 999,999 *grin*

> Ade
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Rich Kroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 29 December 2005 14:47
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two
>
>
> One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of
giving
> away "free" or "low flat-fee" type projects is the clients will be blown
> away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming
back
> with further work.  In my experience, I've found it better to charge the
> full amount as a line item, then to give a "new account" discount on those
> first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for
what
> the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future
> know that this discount will not be applied.
>
> Rich Kroll
> Application Developer
>
>
> 



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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Adrian Lynch
Oh crapola!

Work:   £100,000,000
Because it's you discount:  £99,000,000
Because you're the bestest: £999,999

Total:  £1

:OD

-Original Message-
From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 29 December 2005 16:45
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two


On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that
> they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think
of!
> Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all
> glowy inside :O)
>
> Work:   £100,000,000
> Because it's you discount:  £99,000,000
>
> Total:  £1
>
> Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD

Umm, actually I'd wonder about the quality of the code I'm getting
since your subtraction is off by... ummm. 999,999 *grin*

> Ade


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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread John Paul Ashenfelter
On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that
> they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of!
> Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all
> glowy inside :O)
>
> Work:   £100,000,000
> Because it's you discount:  £99,000,000
>
> Total:  £1
>
> Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD

Umm, actually I'd wonder about the quality of the code I'm getting
since your subtraction is off by... ummm. 999,999 *grin*

> Ade
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Rich Kroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 29 December 2005 14:47
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two
>
>
> One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving
> away "free" or "low flat-fee" type projects is the clients will be blown
> away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back
> with further work.  In my experience, I've found it better to charge the
> full amount as a line item, then to give a "new account" discount on those
> first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what
> the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future
> know that this discount will not be applied.
>
> Rich Kroll
> Application Developer
>
>
> 

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Bryan Stevenson
Wow...I think Matt and I are on the same page...well said Matt!! ;-)

The next step, which I haven't done yet, is to bring in a CF
> coder.  the trouble with expanding your staff is your clients want
> *you* to do the work if the relationship is right, and you're stepping
> away from them.  Another challenge.

Matt we're in that boat right now.  In tha past we've brought in subs as 
needed, 
but we have just hired 3 coders.  What we have done to help mitigate client 
fears (because they all want me...same as you've found) is to say to 
them"You get our staff at the prescribed rate, but you also get me (and one 
of my partners in this case) to manage the project and ensure quality is kept 
up 
to expected standards."

This way they essentially get 5 bodies for the price of 3shows how the 
project can be "saved" in the event of a tight timeline etc.  Of course this 
will only work up to a max number of projects and then the "free" bodies get 
stretched too thin.

Hopefully it will help ya in the transition ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Adrian Lynch
I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that
they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of!
Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all
glowy inside :O)

Work:   £100,000,000
Because it's you discount:  £99,000,000

Total:  £1

Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD

Ade

-Original Message-
From: Rich Kroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 29 December 2005 14:47
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two


One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving
away "free" or "low flat-fee" type projects is the clients will be blown
away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back
with further work.  In my experience, I've found it better to charge the
full amount as a line item, then to give a "new account" discount on those
first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what
the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future
know that this discount will not be applied.

Rich Kroll
Application Developer


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RE: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-29 Thread Rich Kroll
One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving
away "free" or "low flat-fee" type projects is the clients will be blown
away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back
with further work.  In my experience, I've found it better to charge the
full amount as a line item, then to give a "new account" discount on those
first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what
the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future
know that this discount will not be applied.

Rich Kroll
Application Developer


-Original Message-
From: Ali Awan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 6:30 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two

Matt,

I've been asking a similar question to no avail.
I'm glad someone started this thread over here.

As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on
your own.  I just wanted to ask some advice of you.

Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone?  Like for example,
$35/hour. 
I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on,
project planning, as opposed to actual development?  Next, should there be a
different rate for database development, versus application development
(PHP, ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html.
Also do you recommend "padding" hours, based on the above (padding slightly
higher for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html).

I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps.  I'll
sometimes do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start.
I'm hoping that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals,
and the clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven
results.

Cheers
--Ali
>If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a
>client, my answer is an emphatic "yes", and no, don't be greedy as in
>set the price on a job-specific basis.
>
>Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: 
>"Brain surgery" and "Legwork".  Brain surgery equates to "I don't know
>how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years,
>I'll be able to figure it out."  Legwork is "yeah been there done
>that... no problem."
>
>Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent.  I place a
>value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented
>to me.  So I make money.  More importantly, the client comes back for
>the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given
>them a baseline that they know they can count on.  Your code spoke for
>itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a
>snowball rolling downhill.
>
>This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked
>so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid.  Actually have
>more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients.  First
>tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. 
>When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients.  I'm still
>backed up at least a month.
>
>--
>--mattRobertson--
>Janitor, MSB Web Systems
>mysecretbase.com



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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread John C. Bland II
lol John "pro bono yourself into the poor house." Excellent quote. :-)

Someone, I think Matt or Bryan said it best. Be firm (aka confident) in your
rate. I once was shy about my rate but I'm well worth it in many arenas so
now I DO NOT budge my rate for anyone. What I will do is shave hours down
but I won't change my rate, unless they retain me (extra incentive).

[to add to the client stories]
I have a client right now that is becoming a big pain. They let me know if
the quote (I sent last night and revised today) was too high they'd have to
walk. Well, since I don't have a nuisance fee (lol) I could really care
less. They've offered to bring more clients our way and everything in lieu
of us, in my words, giving away work or doing it for beans (with no franks).
The bottom line is...we're prepared to let the client go. They want high
quality work and we provided that, and then some. We even gave away about
$2000 worth of free work because we REALLY wanted to help them get their
site up. BUT, I guess that doesn't matter in their eyes. lol.

I'd like to second that using multiple rates is a pain. Quickbooks makes it
quite easy for you which is fine but its a huge pain for you keep up with
who pays what for what. Keep 1 rate...maybe 2. We've charged different rates
for meetings before (def helps keep down the # of meetings and the length)
but all dev rates are the same. Whether we're doing CF, Flash, Flex, JS,
PHP, or HTML...its $X and not a penny less.

Someone noted they did free work to build up a portfolio...this is GREAT.
Its hard to say "Pay me $100/hr" when you don't have any work to show for
it. As time passes you will increase your rate. Just be professional about
how you approach rate increases and let your clients know at the beginning
of your relationship, preferably in writing, that rate increases are
possible and how it will affect them.

(not to go on and on but one more thing)
That leads me to another great point. PUT IT ALL IN WRITING! When it comes
down to it you need some documents to back your claims for what the client
owes you for. Be as detailed as possible.

Hope that helps...

On 12/28/05, John Paul Ashenfelter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 12/28/05, Ali Awan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Matt,
> >
> > I've been asking a similar question to no avail.
> > I'm glad someone started this thread over here.
> >
> > As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing
> this on your own.  I just wanted to ask some advice of you.
> >
> > Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone?  Like for
> example, $35/hour.
> > I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based
> on, project planning, as opposed to actual development?  Next, should there
> be a different rate for database development, versus application development
> (PHP, ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight
> html.  Also do you recommend "padding" hours, based on the above (padding
> slightly higher for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html).
>
> If you're running your own business, dealing with billing at all is a
> pain in the butt -- why make it *more* complex by adding multiple rate
> tiers. If a client sees you can do some work for $35 hour and other
> work for $50 hour, they'll assume you make money at $35/hour and why
> should they pay more. And from your perspective, it is smarter to pass
> on the $35/hour work and focus on the $50 instead :)
>
> I charge the same rate for everything -- sitting in a meeting,
> thinking through code on a plane, driving to a site, talking on the
> phone, doing code, fuming about something idiotic a client did.
> Regardless of what I'm doing for the client with the hour, it's still
> an hour I'm spending with them instead of someone else. Try going to a
> lawyer or accountant -- it's $300/hr in 6 min increments whether it's
> "Hi how are the kids" or "How can I get paid by this scumbag client".
>
> I do know people who charge nusiance fees, but you have to be pretty
> darn in demand to really get away with that. But again, it keeps
> everyone doing what they want. In this specific instance, it's a West
> Coast Perl programmer who brings in about $150/hour -- but charges
> $300/hour for meetings. It certainly cuts down on the number of
> meetings he's determined to be *crucial* for and let's him focus on
> Perl
>
> There is nothing wrong though, with considering a discount for
> projects you actually *want* to work on. Want to in the sense of "I'm
> really into that" as opposed to "I'm horribly desperate for work!". I
> do some work with a medical group that devises clinical treatments for
> kids with psych problems -- if their grant has $8k instead of the $10k
> that they'd need for one specific project, we both tend to work it out
> b/c I like the work and they let me really try out things with them.
> I've also done some progressive political work at a discount for
> causes I was into. But you've got to be carefu

Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread John Paul Ashenfelter
On 12/28/05, Ali Awan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matt,
>
> I've been asking a similar question to no avail.
> I'm glad someone started this thread over here.
>
> As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on 
> your own.  I just wanted to ask some advice of you.
>
> Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone?  Like for example, 
> $35/hour.
> I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on, 
> project planning, as opposed to actual development?  Next, should there be a 
> different rate for database development, versus application development (PHP, 
> ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html.  Also 
> do you recommend "padding" hours, based on the above (padding slightly higher 
> for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html).

If you're running your own business, dealing with billing at all is a
pain in the butt -- why make it *more* complex by adding multiple rate
tiers. If a client sees you can do some work for $35 hour and other
work for $50 hour, they'll assume you make money at $35/hour and why
should they pay more. And from your perspective, it is smarter to pass
on the $35/hour work and focus on the $50 instead :)

I charge the same rate for everything -- sitting in a meeting,
thinking through code on a plane, driving to a site, talking on the
phone, doing code, fuming about something idiotic a client did.
Regardless of what I'm doing for the client with the hour, it's still
an hour I'm spending with them instead of someone else. Try going to a
lawyer or accountant -- it's $300/hr in 6 min increments whether it's
"Hi how are the kids" or "How can I get paid by this scumbag client".

I do know people who charge nusiance fees, but you have to be pretty
darn in demand to really get away with that. But again, it keeps
everyone doing what they want. In this specific instance, it's a West
Coast Perl programmer who brings in about $150/hour -- but charges
$300/hour for meetings. It certainly cuts down on the number of
meetings he's determined to be *crucial* for and let's him focus on
Perl

There is nothing wrong though, with considering a discount for
projects you actually *want* to work on. Want to in the sense of "I'm
really into that" as opposed to "I'm horribly desperate for work!". I
do some work with a medical group that devises clinical treatments for
kids with psych problems -- if their grant has $8k instead of the $10k
that they'd need for one specific project, we both tend to work it out
b/c I like the work and they let me really try out things with them.
I've also done some progressive political work at a discount for
causes I was into. But you've got to be careful you don't pro bono
yourself into the poor house. If you want to work completely for free,
you'd be better off building up some tech credit working on an open
source project than giving a freebie to a client.

> I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps.  I'll sometimes 
> do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start.  I'm hoping 
> that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the 
> clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results.

How's that worked for you? I'm guessing not all that well.

> Cheers

--
John Paul Ashenfelter
CTO/Transitionpoint
(blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com
(email) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread Matt Robertson
Hi Ali,

I set a single rate in stone.  If I am talking on the telephone to a
client, or writing them an email that is an assessment of a series of
site mods they are requesting (billed 2 hrs of that this morning) or
setting up a server or ... *whatever*.  My time is worht X and that is
what I charge for it.

Your clients must be aware of this, and I keep shorthand notes of what
I do with my time and submit them with my weekly invoices.  I have
gotten completely away from ANY sort of fixed-fee project and now do
only hourly billing with project costs being ballpark-only (and then I
try hard to come in under the ballpark I gave them).

To do this successfully you have to have the trust of your client.
They have to be confident you aren't padding the bill, and that if a
job goes over initial estimates there is a good reason for this; not
that you needed a new transmission on your car.  As you build up time
with a client and treat them more than fairly, this worry will
disappear, but it makes for some edgy first jobs.  Still, in the long
run you wind up with a best-case for yourself where you are not
working for free (underbid a job) or overcharging (it took less time
than you thought).

Thats the other side of this.  If you estimate $1000 for something and
it bills out to $50 because you had a brainstorm, then bill them $50
and take the mountain of good karma (and repeat business, and
referrals) that comes from that.  Hogs get fat.  Pigs get slaughtered.

I would not lowball people to get them in the door, and then jack up
the rate.  Thats perceived negatively no matter what you do, I think. 
Instead, price yourself competitively perhaps only a little below
market, and stick to it throughout the relationship, perhaps with
small annual increases.  If you want a rate increase start the *next*
customers out at the increased rate, which is now better justified by
your extant stable of happy customers and body of work.

> Bryan said
> but they also don't want you so busy you can't do their work.

Amen to that.  what you wind up doing is slicing time for everyone and
pleasing no one.  Still, you have constant income and what you can
then start doing is subcontracting.  For example I farm out all design
to a talented firm, and all basic CMS/HTML work (lots of customers
with CMS systems with no time to manage them.  Go figure.)  to someone
else.  The next step, which I haven't done yet, is to bring in a CF
coder.  the trouble with expanding your staff is your clients want
*you* to do the work if the relationship is right, and you're stepping
away from them.  Another challenge.

> Experience has taught me that I don't want the clients that aren't
> willing to pay my rate.  My rate is fair given my experience.  If you take on
> those folks that start your business relationship by complainig about your
> rateguess how much more complaining and nickel and diming strats to happen

oh man is that ever true.  I've got a guy right now that I *know* I
should stay away from but I'm pot-committed in terms of the time I
have spent on him already.  Again you have to be firm, and ready to
walk away if you must.

Just some thoughts,

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread Bryan Stevenson
I know ya asked Mattbut I've also been through the contracting ringer

> I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps.  I'll sometimes 
> do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start.  I'm hoping 
> that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the 
> clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results.

First I admit I've done the same thing. Second I'll say that in my experience 
it 
just doesn't work well.  Clients get a deal and run awayyes some are 
loyalbut they also don't want you so busy you can't do their work.

My neighbour is a general contractor and we have our clinet bitch sessions over 
the fence all the time...and you know what...it seems that no matter what kind 
of contracting you do (building houses or apps) customers somehow think the 
normal rules of business do not apply.

What I mean is you cannot walk into the grocery store and ask for a loaf of 
bread for 25 cents when it's a $1.50you'd simply never think of doing that. 
Well that's exactly what happens to us...

1) "The initial budget is tight but when the project starts making money I'll 
kick some your way for add-ons".  Yeah sure!

2) "Can I pay you later beacuse I don't have the money right now?" Ummm no...go 
ask the grocery store manager if you can pay later!!

I think you see my point.

When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out loadit 
was always the hardest part of the deal.  What I've found over time is you have 
to be firm.  Experience has taught me that I don't want the clients that aren't 
willing to pay my rate.  My rate is fair given my experience.  If you take on 
those folks that start your business relationship by complainig about your 
rateguess how much more complaining and nickel and diming strats to happen 
;-)

IMHO I'm not over priced...I know what I'm doing or can learn about it VERY 
quicklyI'm worth every penny.

So just a little word of warning about the slippery slope of the dancing rate.

All of the above of course goes out the window when you have to pay the rent 
and 
eat ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread Ali Awan
Matt,

I've been asking a similar question to no avail.
I'm glad someone started this thread over here.

As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on 
your own.  I just wanted to ask some advice of you.

Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone?  Like for example, 
$35/hour. 
I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on, 
project planning, as opposed to actual development?  Next, should there be a 
different rate for database development, versus application development (PHP, 
ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html.  Also do 
you recommend "padding" hours, based on the above (padding slightly higher for 
database, or CF Code, as opposed to html).

I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps.  I'll sometimes 
do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start.  I'm hoping 
that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the 
clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results.

Cheers
--Ali
>If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a
>client, my answer is an emphatic "yes", and no, don't be greedy as in
>set the price on a job-specific basis.
>
>Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: 
>"Brain surgery" and "Legwork".  Brain surgery equates to "I don't know
>how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years,
>I'll be able to figure it out."  Legwork is "yeah been there done
>that... no problem."
>
>Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent.  I place a
>value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented
>to me.  So I make money.  More importantly, the client comes back for
>the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given
>them a baseline that they know they can count on.  Your code spoke for
>itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a
>snowball rolling downhill.
>
>This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked
>so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid.  Actually have
>more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients.  First
>tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. 
>When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients.  I'm still
>backed up at least a month.
>
>--
>--mattRobertson--
>Janitor, MSB Web Systems
>mysecretbase.com

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread John C. Bland II
I would agree. To be honest, I teach anyone who will listen not to work with
people who have "packages" setup for custom work. Now, a prebuilt CMS or
whatever is fine but to say "You get 10 pages + 1 swf for $750" is a
terrible deal. (that's only an example)

We either work hourly or estimate the total hours for the project and use
that as the total price for the project. I tell clients if we're under or
over they won't pay any more than the project price (unless there are new
items added to the list.

On 12/28/05, Matt Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a
> client, my answer is an emphatic "yes", and no, don't be greedy as in
> set the price on a job-specific basis.
>
> Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs:
> "Brain surgery" and "Legwork".  Brain surgery equates to "I don't know
> how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years,
> I'll be able to figure it out."  Legwork is "yeah been there done
> that... no problem."
>
> Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent.  I place a
> value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented
> to me.  So I make money.  More importantly, the client comes back for
> the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given
> them a baseline that they know they can count on.  Your code spoke for
> itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a
> snowball rolling downhill.
>
> This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked
> so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid.  Actually have
> more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients.  First
> tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase.
> When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients.  I'm still
> backed up at least a month.
>
> --
> --mattRobertson--
> Janitor, MSB Web Systems
> mysecretbase.com
>
> 

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Re: A Contractor or Two

2005-12-28 Thread Matt Robertson
If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a
client, my answer is an emphatic "yes", and no, don't be greedy as in
set the price on a job-specific basis.

Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: 
"Brain surgery" and "Legwork".  Brain surgery equates to "I don't know
how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years,
I'll be able to figure it out."  Legwork is "yeah been there done
that... no problem."

Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent.  I place a
value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented
to me.  So I make money.  More importantly, the client comes back for
the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given
them a baseline that they know they can count on.  Your code spoke for
itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a
snowball rolling downhill.

This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked
so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid.  Actually have
more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients.  First
tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. 
When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients.  I'm still
backed up at least a month.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

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