Re: OT: SPAM filters and this list

[Claude Schneegans]

 thoughts? complaints? bitches? moans?

I'll second this.

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Re: OT: Spam Filters

[Stephen Moretti (cfmaster)]

Another method of attack is using an email client that has junk mail filters 
built into it. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird email client, which has junk mail 
filters that, once trained, filter out spam amazingly well.
  

Complete aside - but just thought I'd mention that Thunderbird v1 has 
been released!!! :oD
Download speeds are understandably awful at the minute, but they could 
be much worse!

Stephen


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RE: OT: Spam Filters

[Tim Laureska]

It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla
site as of 5:40 AM EST

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Moretti (cfmaster) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 3:43 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: Spam Filters

Another method of attack is using an email client that has junk mail
filters built into it. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird email client, which
has junk mail filters that, once trained, filter out spam amazingly
well.
  

Complete aside - but just thought I'd mention that Thunderbird v1 has 
been released!!! :oD
Download speeds are understandably awful at the minute, but they could 
be much worse!

Stephen




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Re: OT: Spam Filters

[Stephen Moretti (cfmaster)]

Tim Laureska wrote:

It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla site as 
of 5:40 AM EST
  

???

http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/

Still there for me.




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RE: OT: Spam Filters

[Tim Laureska]

I do not see any download link on that page or any other page... I was
able to get to the supposed download page in a round - a - bout way but
only thing listed was system requirements

Plz show me where I'm losing my mind... is this affecting US customers
only?

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Moretti (cfmaster) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:03 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: Spam Filters

Tim Laureska wrote:

It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla
site as of 5:40 AM EST
  

???

http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/

Still there for me.






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RE: OT: Spam Filters

[Hugo Ahlenius]

There is a bug in a javascript file on the Thunderbird download page,
that affects user of IE on WinXP sp2:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260780

Try opening the page in your favorite alternative browser, and it will
work.



--
Hugo Ahlenius

-
Hugo Ahlenius  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project OfficerPhone:+46 8 230460
UNEP GRID-Arendal  Fax:  +46 8 230441
Stockholm Office   Mobile: +46 733 467111
   WWW:   http://www.grida.no
- 



|-Original Message-
|From: Tim Laureska [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 12:23
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
|
|I do not see any download link on that page or any other
|page... I was able to get to the supposed download page in a
|round - a - bout way but only thing listed was system requirements
|
|Plz show me where I'm losing my mind... is this affecting US
|customers only?
|
|-Original Message-
|From: Stephen Moretti (cfmaster) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:03 AM
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: Re: OT: Spam Filters
|
|Tim Laureska wrote:
|
|It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla
|site as of 5:40 AM EST
|
|
|???
|
|http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/
|
|Still there for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

~|
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RE: OT: Spam Filters

[Tim Laureska]

Thanks Hugo ... I almost thought there must be a bug or something...
that seems crazy... they're cutting out a large percentage of potential
users

-Original Message-
From: Hugo Ahlenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:04 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters

There is a bug in a javascript file on the Thunderbird download page,
that affects user of IE on WinXP sp2:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260780

Try opening the page in your favorite alternative browser, and it will
work.



--
Hugo Ahlenius

-
Hugo Ahlenius  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project OfficerPhone:+46 8 230460
UNEP GRID-Arendal  Fax:  +46 8 230441
Stockholm Office   Mobile: +46 733 467111
   WWW:   http://www.grida.no
- 



|-Original Message-
|From: Tim Laureska [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 12:23
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
|
|I do not see any download link on that page or any other
|page... I was able to get to the supposed download page in a
|round - a - bout way but only thing listed was system requirements
|
|Plz show me where I'm losing my mind... is this affecting US
|customers only?
|
|-Original Message-
|From: Stephen Moretti (cfmaster) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:03 AM
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: Re: OT: Spam Filters
|
|Tim Laureska wrote:
|
|It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla
|site as of 5:40 AM EST
|
|
|???
|
|http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/
|
|Still there for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|



~|
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RE: OT: Spam Filters

[Hugo Ahlenius]

Lesson learned:

Always catch your errors in javascript! try/catch/throw and onerror are
your friends -- not only in cf, but also on the client.





--
Hugo Ahlenius

-
Hugo Ahlenius  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project OfficerPhone:+46 8 230460
UNEP GRID-Arendal  Fax:  +46 8 230441
Stockholm Office   Mobile: +46 733 467111
   WWW:   http://www.grida.no
- 



|-Original Message-
|From: Tim Laureska [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 13:25
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
|
|Thanks Hugo ... I almost thought there must be a bug or something...
|that seems crazy... they're cutting out a large percentage of
|potential users
|
|-Original Message-
|From: Hugo Ahlenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:04 AM
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
|
|There is a bug in a javascript file on the Thunderbird
|download page, that affects user of IE on WinXP sp2:
|https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260780
|
|Try opening the page in your favorite alternative browser, and
|it will work.
|
|
|
|--
|Hugo Ahlenius
|
|-
|Hugo Ahlenius  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Project OfficerPhone:+46 8 230460
|UNEP GRID-Arendal  Fax:  +46 8 230441
|Stockholm Office   Mobile: +46 733 467111
|   WWW:   http://www.grida.no
|- 
|
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: Tim Laureska [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
||Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 12:23
||To: CF-Talk
||Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
||
||I do not see any download link on that page or any other
|page... I was
||able to get to the supposed download page in a round - a -
|bout way but
||only thing listed was system requirements
||
||Plz show me where I'm losing my mind... is this affecting US
|customers
||only?
||
||-Original Message-
||From: Stephen Moretti (cfmaster) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
||Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:03 AM
||To: CF-Talk
||Subject: Re: OT: Spam Filters
||
||Tim Laureska wrote:
||
||It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla
||site as of 5:40 AM EST
||
||
||???
||
||http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/
||
||Still there for me.
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
|
|
|
|

~|
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RE: OT: Spam Filters

[Tim Laureska]

I hear ya... I'm not trying to drag this on Hugo, but I can see how you
would do that if CF, but how would you do that on say, IE6 on my
computer.. this is new to me

-Original Message-
From: Hugo Ahlenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:47 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters

Lesson learned:

Always catch your errors in javascript! try/catch/throw and onerror are
your friends -- not only in cf, but also on the client.





--
Hugo Ahlenius

-
Hugo Ahlenius  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project OfficerPhone:+46 8 230460
UNEP GRID-Arendal  Fax:  +46 8 230441
Stockholm Office   Mobile: +46 733 467111
   WWW:   http://www.grida.no
- 



|-Original Message-
|From: Tim Laureska [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 13:25
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
|
|Thanks Hugo ... I almost thought there must be a bug or something...
|that seems crazy... they're cutting out a large percentage of
|potential users
|
|-Original Message-
|From: Hugo Ahlenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:04 AM
|To: CF-Talk
|Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
|
|There is a bug in a javascript file on the Thunderbird
|download page, that affects user of IE on WinXP sp2:
|https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260780
|
|Try opening the page in your favorite alternative browser, and
|it will work.
|
|
|
|--
|Hugo Ahlenius
|
|-
|Hugo Ahlenius  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Project OfficerPhone:+46 8 230460
|UNEP GRID-Arendal  Fax:  +46 8 230441
|Stockholm Office   Mobile: +46 733 467111
|   WWW:   http://www.grida.no
|- 
|
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: Tim Laureska [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
||Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 12:23
||To: CF-Talk
||Subject: RE: OT: Spam Filters
||
||I do not see any download link on that page or any other
|page... I was
||able to get to the supposed download page in a round - a -
|bout way but
||only thing listed was system requirements
||
||Plz show me where I'm losing my mind... is this affecting US
|customers
||only?
||
||-Original Message-
||From: Stephen Moretti (cfmaster) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
||Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:03 AM
||To: CF-Talk
||Subject: Re: OT: Spam Filters
||
||Tim Laureska wrote:
||
||It looks like they took the download Thuderbird link off the mozilla
||site as of 5:40 AM EST
||
||
||???
||
||http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/
||
||Still there for me.
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
|
|
|
|



~|
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Re: OT: Spam Filters

[David Fafard]

I am using this too now.. I had bought a Spam filter for Outlook Express 
but Tbird is doing
as good a job as the commericial one!

A little getting used to at first but I'm liking it.

Dave

Another method of attack is using an email client that has junk mail


filters built into it. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird email client, which
has junk mail filters that, once trained, filter out spam amazingly
well.
  

 



Complete aside - but just thought I'd mention that Thunderbird v1 has 
been released!!! :oD
Download speeds are understandably awful at the minute, but they could 
be much worse!

Stephen






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Re: OT: Spam Filters

[Jordan Michaels]

Donna French wrote:

Sorry for the OT post, but I'm hoping someone has setup a great
filtering system or list of keywords to filter by that won't mind
sharing them.

We use CrystalTech hosting and the spam filters are working fine, but
the people within the company are driving me nuts asking when they
will see a considerable decrease in spam. Right now, I go thru the
emails and pull out keywords to filter by and add them to the growing
list each day.

But I still have users getting a couple hundred spam messages per day.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

  

Keyword spam filtering is becoming more and more ineffective as time 
goes on. Does CrystalTech have any kind of anti-spam solution that 
offers hauristic analisys? So... not just a list of keywords but also a 
set of rules that an engine uses to determine if the message is spam? 
(Does the reverse DNS for the reply address resolve? etc.) Spamassassin 
is a good example of a spam-filter that uses a hauristic engine to 
determine spam. Spamassassin can also be trained as to what is spam 
and what isn't spam. Using CrystalTech, would it be possible for you to 
install spamassassin?

Another method of attack is using an email client that has junk mail 
filters built into it. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird email client, which 
has junk mail filters that, once trained, filter out spam amazingly well.

Yet another solution would be to have your email sent through a 
third-party filtering service. (EG: postini) I've seen this method 
deployed very successfully at a local community college.

Just some thoughts.

-- 
Warm regards,
Jordan Michaels
Vivio Technologies
http://www.viviotech.net/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: OT: spam...

[Scott Brady]

From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Seems a bit ironic to me that I'm getting
spammed by the anti-spam police.  

Yeah, I went to their website (without using the affiliate link provided in the 
e-mail) and filled out their contact form (without giving them my e-mail address) and 
complained to them (basically, calling them big hypocrites). Too bad their was a JSP 
error connecting to the mail server.


Scott Brady
http://www.scottbrady.net/

 
 
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RE: OT: spam...

[Lee Fuller]

Did you also get back a message from them stating that it's a spammer who's
pretending to be them?  I did, and they have an announcement about it now.
Seems someone who was caught by them is simply getting even.



| -Original Message-
| From: Scott Brady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
| Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 7:34 AM
| To: CF-Talk
| Subject: Re: OT: spam...
| 
| 
| From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Seems a bit ironic to me that I'm getting
| spammed by the anti-spam police.
| 
| Yeah, I went to their website (without using the affiliate 
| link provided in the e-mail) and filled out their contact 
| form (without giving them my e-mail address) and complained 
| to them (basically, calling them big hypocrites). Too bad 
| their was a JSP error connecting to the mail server.
| 
| 
| Scott Brady
| http://www.scottbrady.net/
| 
|  
|  
| 
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RE: OT: spam...

[Mark A. Kruger - CFG]

Ah... well, that makes more sense.  It's a pretty believable message though.

-Mark

-Original Message-
From: Lee Fuller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:38 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: OT: spam...


Did you also get back a message from them stating that it's a spammer who's
pretending to be them?  I did, and they have an announcement about it now.
Seems someone who was caught by them is simply getting even.



| -Original Message-
| From: Scott Brady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 7:34 AM
| To: CF-Talk
| Subject: Re: OT: spam...
|
|
| From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Seems a bit ironic to me that I'm getting
| spammed by the anti-spam police.
|
| Yeah, I went to their website (without using the affiliate
| link provided in the e-mail) and filled out their contact
| form (without giving them my e-mail address) and complained
| to them (basically, calling them big hypocrites). Too bad
| their was a JSP error connecting to the mail server.
|
| 
| Scott Brady
| http://www.scottbrady.net/
|
|
|
|

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RE: OT: spam...

[Scott Brady]

-- Original Message --
From: Lee Fuller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Did you also get back a message from them stating that it's a spammer who's
pretending to be them?  I did, and they have an announcement about it now.
Seems someone who was caught by them is simply getting even.

Nope, cause my message never went through (JSP error). But it still felt good typing 
it. I'll check out the announcement, though.


Scott Brady
http://www.scottbrady.net/

 
 
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Re: OT: spam...

[Jochem van Dieten]

Lee Fuller wrote:
 Did you also get back a message from them stating that it's a spammer who's
 pretending to be them?  I did, and they have an announcement about it now.
 Seems someone who was caught by them is simply getting even.

It is pretty hard to verify that claim without the full headers. The one 
message that was posted to NANAS does appear to come from a genuine 
spamarrest.com server though: 
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=gt1y2cgzle.fsf%40venus.ling.helsinki.fi

Check out the discusion in NANAE, there are more indications it is not a 
joe job:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnb4m6bl.4hk.you%40jazz.hq.newdream.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Jochem

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Re: OT: spam...

[Dave Lyons]

they are probably owned by AOL ;)


Dave -

- Original Message -
From: Jochem van Dieten [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: OT: spam...


 Lee Fuller wrote:
  Did you also get back a message from them stating that it's a spammer
who's
  pretending to be them?  I did, and they have an announcement about it
now.
  Seems someone who was caught by them is simply getting even.

 It is pretty hard to verify that claim without the full headers. The one
 message that was posted to NANAS does appear to come from a genuine
 spamarrest.com server though:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=gt1y2cgzle.fsf%40venus.ling.helsinki.fi

 Check out the discusion in NANAE, there are more indications it is not a
 joe job:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnb4m6bl.4hk.you%40jazz.hq.newdream.n
et
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Jochem

 
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Re: OT: spam...

[Scott Weikert]

FYI, there was a discussion on SpamArrest sending spams to people in this 
same manner (harvesting emails from folks doing the responder thing to be 
able to email an SA customer) on the WWWAC list (NY new media list) in 
recent hours. You guys aren't the only ones.

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

It's the fact that the legit folks get nailed as well.

Listen..we all agree that spam is evil...we all agree that mail servers
should not be open.BUT is it so bad to give the folks running the server
a chance to fix it first??  My issue is that once found to be open it is
incredibly difficult to get off the blacklist.  This means that legit folks
can be without mail for a long time.  Even if ORDB continues to aid in
stopping legit mail, they could at least invest in some decent hardware and
bandwidth.  I mean 5-10 hours to test a mail server is so ridiculous it's
not funny.  If they are going to keep it up then the test should be avble to
be performed in a matter of minutes and not hours.

They suckI'm right...so na na na na naaa ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Jochem van Dieten]

Bryan Stevenson wrote:

 It's the fact that the legit folks get nailed as well.
 
 Listen..we all agree that spam is evil...we all agree that mail servers
 should not be open.BUT is it so bad to give the folks running the server
 a chance to fix it first??


I would also very much like a chance to update my Win2K to SP2 and 
supply some security fixes directly after install, but Nimda always gets 
there first. Shouldn't I get a chance to fix it first?

Face it, it is the way things work. You may not like it this way because 
you were running an Open Relay and got locked out, but I like it this 
way. And I control what email gets through to my server.


 My issue is that once found to be open it is
 incredibly difficult to get off the blacklist.  This means that legit folks
 can be without mail for a long time.  Even if ORDB continues to aid in
 stopping legit mail, they could at least invest in some decent hardware and
 bandwidth.  I mean 5-10 hours to test a mail server is so ridiculous it's
 not funny.  If they are going to keep it up then the test should be avble to
 be performed in a matter of minutes and not hours.


Actually, hardware and bandwidth are not the issue, sufficient testing 
clones spread around the globe and testing interval randomization are 
the issue. If they simply used 1 IP to do all the testing it would be 
pretty simple to lock out that IP. If they use more but test immediately 
it is still very easy to lock out their IPs.

Jochem
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

You're comparing what an organization like ORDB does to a virusgee I
guess your are coming around to my view ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Paris Lundis]

the anti-spam passion always gets funny :)

a similar but certainly costly non blockable, but regulated by bad laws, is
the legislation they passed on unsolicited fax transmissions...

then again, I bet everyone doesn't attack their postman/post office about
all the unsolicited paper form junk mail they receive :)

even if a mail server being open is theoretically bad and your blocking it
prevents some mail from flowing through it we are talking about hindering
another's ability to provide service in an open environment... certainly
whoever, raises any suit will notably sue both those blocking and ORBZ then.

blocking because of risk is bad bad bad.. it is unproven... the likelihood
that someone is going to do something wrong is unfounded until it happens...
the impact on public health and safety therefore is about 0.

the whole over reactive security aka I hate spam approach is way too far...
whether a relay is open because it is, or admin hasn't hardened it or it is
testing or a number of other things...

I say this all because we handle near 500 domains across various platforms
and they certainly receive a lot of spam... but it hardly is something that
even causes much effort more than a few delete key presses..

ORBZ service is just horrible... basically wait for days... configure,
reconfigure, etc

I wish ORBZ would write a crawler to find security holes in others web
servers then destroy their DNS ability/records since they haven't patched...
now that would be nice.. sure would cut down on all that spare traffic
absorbed by admins who haven't patched or won't in months. Now that would be
useful :)

-paris


-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:37
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


It's the fact that the legit folks get nailed as well.

Listen..we all agree that spam is evil...we all agree that mail servers
should not be open.BUT is it so bad to give the folks running the server
a chance to fix it first??  My issue is that once found to be open it is
incredibly difficult to get off the blacklist.  This means that legit folks
can be without mail for a long time.  Even if ORDB continues to aid in
stopping legit mail, they could at least invest in some decent hardware and
bandwidth.  I mean 5-10 hours to test a mail server is so ridiculous it's
not funny.  If they are going to keep it up then the test should be avble to
be performed in a matter of minutes and not hours.

They suckI'm right...so na na na na naaa ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Jon Hall]

I agree they are definately way to overzealous and their server sucks.
Probably because no one will host them :) However, they are not the worst.
We got onto some list called Pegasus or something a while back, and it is
absolutely insane how they run this thing. They do a lookup on ARIN and
block every netblock that is owned by the netblock that failed one of their
tests. We think a dial up customer sent some spam, not sure though. Their
web site does not tell how one got on their blacklist and they do not answer
emails. We were never able to get off of their list despite the fact that
orbs thinks we are fine... We actually went and got a couple more netblocks
and another backup backbone provider, stuck our mail servers on the new
backbone and forgot about them. We might still be blacklisted for all I know
:-)
What's worse is that the people who use the blacklist services really do not
know how these lists work. I talked to two different admins that ran this
Pegasus list and they had no clue how one got on or off the list. They also
didn't know who ran it or how it was run. Sounds like a protection racket to
me.

jon
- Original Message -
From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 It's the fact that the legit folks get nailed as well.

 Listen..we all agree that spam is evil...we all agree that mail servers
 should not be open.BUT is it so bad to give the folks running the
server
 a chance to fix it first??  My issue is that once found to be open it is
 incredibly difficult to get off the blacklist.  This means that legit
folks
 can be without mail for a long time.  Even if ORDB continues to aid in
 stopping legit mail, they could at least invest in some decent hardware
and
 bandwidth.  I mean 5-10 hours to test a mail server is so ridiculous it's
 not funny.  If they are going to keep it up then the test should be avble
to
 be performed in a matter of minutes and not hours.

 They suckI'm right...so na na na na naaa ;-)

 Bryan Stevenson
 VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
 Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
 p. 250.920.8830
 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]



~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

To avoid Nimda, CodeRed, et al, I usually leave the network cable unplugged
when installing.  I then disable IIS, replug the network cable, install SP,
then turn IIS back on.  Pretty simple.

Personally, I think it's OK to get blocked.. as long as notification and
retesting happen in a timely fashion.I agree that the whole process
could be done in a matter of minutes rather than hours.

I still believe that you are responsible for the consequences of your
configuration.

- Original Message -
From: Jochem van Dieten [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Bryan Stevenson wrote:

  It's the fact that the legit folks get nailed as well.
 
  Listen..we all agree that spam is evil...we all agree that mail servers
  should not be open.BUT is it so bad to give the folks running the
server
  a chance to fix it first??


 I would also very much like a chance to update my Win2K to SP2 and
 supply some security fixes directly after install, but Nimda always gets
 there first. Shouldn't I get a chance to fix it first?

 Face it, it is the way things work. You may not like it this way because
 you were running an Open Relay and got locked out, but I like it this
 way. And I control what email gets through to my server.


  My issue is that once found to be open it is
  incredibly difficult to get off the blacklist.  This means that legit
folks
  can be without mail for a long time.  Even if ORDB continues to aid in
  stopping legit mail, they could at least invest in some decent hardware
and
  bandwidth.  I mean 5-10 hours to test a mail server is so ridiculous
it's
  not funny.  If they are going to keep it up then the test should be
avble to
  be performed in a matter of minutes and not hours.


 Actually, hardware and bandwidth are not the issue, sufficient testing
 clones spread around the globe and testing interval randomization are
 the issue. If they simply used 1 IP to do all the testing it would be
 pretty simple to lock out that IP. If they use more but test immediately
 it is still very easy to lock out their IPs.

 Jochem
 
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

I'll agree that a blackhole list for web servers is a great idea.
Definitely a far greater risk and traffic waste than open relays.

- Original Message -
From: Paris Lundis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: OT: SPAM lists?


 the anti-spam passion always gets funny :)

 a similar but certainly costly non blockable, but regulated by bad laws,
is
 the legislation they passed on unsolicited fax transmissions...

 then again, I bet everyone doesn't attack their postman/post office about
 all the unsolicited paper form junk mail they receive :)

 even if a mail server being open is theoretically bad and your blocking it
 prevents some mail from flowing through it we are talking about hindering
 another's ability to provide service in an open environment... certainly
 whoever, raises any suit will notably sue both those blocking and ORBZ
then.

 blocking because of risk is bad bad bad.. it is unproven... the likelihood
 that someone is going to do something wrong is unfounded until it
happens...
 the impact on public health and safety therefore is about 0.

 the whole over reactive security aka I hate spam approach is way too
far...
 whether a relay is open because it is, or admin hasn't hardened it or it
is
 testing or a number of other things...

 I say this all because we handle near 500 domains across various platforms
 and they certainly receive a lot of spam... but it hardly is something
that
 even causes much effort more than a few delete key presses..

 ORBZ service is just horrible... basically wait for days... configure,
 reconfigure, etc

 I wish ORBZ would write a crawler to find security holes in others web
 servers then destroy their DNS ability/records since they haven't
patched...
 now that would be nice.. sure would cut down on all that spare traffic
 absorbed by admins who haven't patched or won't in months. Now that would
be
 useful :)

 -paris


 -Original Message-
 From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:37
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 It's the fact that the legit folks get nailed as well.

 Listen..we all agree that spam is evil...we all agree that mail servers
 should not be open.BUT is it so bad to give the folks running the
server
 a chance to fix it first??  My issue is that once found to be open it is
 incredibly difficult to get off the blacklist.  This means that legit
folks
 can be without mail for a long time.  Even if ORDB continues to aid in
 stopping legit mail, they could at least invest in some decent hardware
and
 bandwidth.  I mean 5-10 hours to test a mail server is so ridiculous it's
 not funny.  If they are going to keep it up then the test should be avble
to
 be performed in a matter of minutes and not hours.

 They suckI'm right...so na na na na naaa ;-)

 Bryan Stevenson
 VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
 Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
 p. 250.920.8830
 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Len Conrad]

And shutting people down with no warning is also inexusable

People running open relays are lazy or incompetent, so sending them a 
warning, even automated (no labor) won't energize them or power up their 
skills.

In 2001, every mail admin has used up his virtual three strikes.  No 
excuse, no warning.

Len


http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training
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http://IMGate.MEIway.com  : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Len Conrad]

I'll agree that a blackhole list for web servers is a great idea.
Definitely a far greater risk and traffic waste than open relays.

You can only say that since you haven't been the victim of a mutli-week, 
high-source-bandwidth DoS and other malicious attacks mounted through 
1000's and 1000's of open relays world-wide.

Len


http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training
http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.4 for NT4  W2K
http://IMGate.MEIway.com  : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

True - I wasn't thinking of malicious attacks, I was thinking of SPAM.

- Original Message - 
From: Len Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 I'll agree that a blackhole list for web servers is a great idea.
 Definitely a far greater risk and traffic waste than open relays.
 
 You can only say that since you haven't been the victim of a mutli-week,
 high-source-bandwidth DoS and other malicious attacks mounted through
 1000's and 1000's of open relays world-wide.
 
 Len
 
 
 http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training
 http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.4 for NT4  W2K
 http://IMGate.MEIway.com  : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways
 
~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Well Len thanks for calling me lazy and incompetent.  Until I got
blacklisted I did not know about open relays.  So how does that put me in
either category?  The mail server I was running had no documentation about
the possible abuse of or even the existence of open relays.  I'm the first
to admit that my face was red when I found out that the situation existed
and I dropped everything else I was doing and fixed it immeadiately.  I can
guarantee you that had I received a warning, it would certainly would have
energized me to deal with the situation.

Please watch those blanket statements in the future...because I am far from
lazy or incompetent...you weenie ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

No disrespect intended, but I would say that you should have been aware of
the potential issues.

Lazy and incompetent are strong terms.  Perhaps irresponsibly
negligent is better.

If someone spreads viruses because their virus scanner didn't tell them they
had to update it, that's negligence.  If someone doesn't patch IIS and
spreads CodeRed, Nimda, et al,  to everyone and their dog, that's
negligence.  Negligence and innocence are not synonymous.

You are responsible for the consequences of your configuration.

---
Billy Cravens

- Original Message -
From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Well Len thanks for calling me lazy and incompetent.  Until I got
 blacklisted I did not know about open relays.  So how does that put me in
 either category?  The mail server I was running had no documentation about
 the possible abuse of or even the existence of open relays.  I'm the first
 to admit that my face was red when I found out that the situation existed
 and I dropped everything else I was doing and fixed it immeadiately.  I
can
 guarantee you that had I received a warning, it would certainly would have
 energized me to deal with the situation.

 Please watch those blanket statements in the future...because I am far
from
 lazy or incompetent...you weenie ;-)

 Bryan Stevenson
 VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
 Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
 p. 250.920.8830
 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
~~
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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Paris Lundis]

it is a classic age old elitism thing... oh yeah you should know...

I know someone who broke into over 2000 computers years ago and someone else
who distributed a widely acclaimed worm of its day... needless to say their
argument and logic was the same understandably... OH THE DUMB ADMIN...

Being an admin has many functions and responsibilities... One important
quality is the ability to learn.. another is the prioritization of important
things...  This argument falls there...

Again I guess I will ask it, if open relays are so bad from this side of the
house, why do we even include them in mail servers?

Just because someone stumps you at Jeopardy on one question doesn't make you
stupid or them gifted :)

-paris


-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 13:17
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


Well Len thanks for calling me lazy and incompetent.  Until I got
blacklisted I did not know about open relays.  So how does that put me in
either category?  The mail server I was running had no documentation about
the possible abuse of or even the existence of open relays.  I'm the first
to admit that my face was red when I found out that the situation existed
and I dropped everything else I was doing and fixed it immeadiately.  I can
guarantee you that had I received a warning, it would certainly would have
energized me to deal with the situation.

Please watch those blanket statements in the future...because I am far from
lazy or incompetent...you weenie ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]


~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Yup..I'll take the hit...I should have done more research.  The fact still
remains that groups like ORDB are going too far in their approach to SPAM

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[John Rossi]

I emailed my old ISP last year to complain about their open relay, since I was getting
bounced emails, and they had no idea what an open relay was even when I pointed them to
relevant info. So while incompetent is a strong word it can be appropriate in certain
instances.

John

-Original Message-
From: BILLY CRAVENS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:27 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


No disrespect intended, but I would say that you should have been aware of
the potential issues.

Lazy and incompetent are strong terms.  Perhaps irresponsibly
negligent is better.

If someone spreads viruses because their virus scanner didn't tell them they
had to update it, that's negligence.  If someone doesn't patch IIS and
spreads CodeRed, Nimda, et al,  to everyone and their dog, that's
negligence.  Negligence and innocence are not synonymous.

You are responsible for the consequences of your configuration.

---
Billy Cravens

- Original Message -
From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Well Len thanks for calling me lazy and incompetent.  Until I got
 blacklisted I did not know about open relays.  So how does that put me in
 either category?  The mail server I was running had no documentation about
 the possible abuse of or even the existence of open relays.  I'm the first
 to admit that my face was red when I found out that the situation existed
 and I dropped everything else I was doing and fixed it immeadiately.  I
can
 guarantee you that had I received a warning, it would certainly would have
 energized me to deal with the situation.

 Please watch those blanket statements in the future...because I am far
from
 lazy or incompetent...you weenie ;-)

 Bryan Stevenson
 VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
 Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
 p. 250.920.8830
 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]



~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

You got it Paris..nobody's perfecteven us lazy incompetent folks need
help sometimes ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Dave Watts]

 Well Len thanks for calling me lazy and incompetent. Until I got
 blacklisted I did not know about open relays. So how does that 
 put me in either category? The mail server I was running had no 
 documentation about the possible abuse of or even the existence 
 of open relays. I'm the first to admit that my face was red when 
 I found out that the situation existed and I dropped everything 
 else I was doing and fixed it immediately. I can guarantee you 
 that had I received a warning, it would certainly would have 
 energized me to deal with the situation.

You're not going to like hearing this, but if you set up an SMTP server
without knowing about the possibility of it being an open relay, then you
were certainly at that time incompetent as an SMTP server administrator.

Don't take it personally - I've done the same thing before, and guess what?
At the time, I was certainly incompetent as an SMTP server administrator.
I'm probably still incompetent in that role, but at least I know about that
problem. I was just like you - I read the software manual, which didn't
mention the problem, I installed the software, and away I went, happy as can
be, until I got a bunch of complaints about people relaying mail through the
server, and shortly after, getting blacklisted by ORBS. When I did find out
about the problem, I reconfigured the server, and tried again. It turned out
that there were still ways to relay mail through the thing, and I was still
blacklisted. It turned out to be far more complicated than it should've
been, and if I'd been a competent SMTP administrator, I'd have used a better
SMTP server.

The larger problem here, and the reason you don't get a warning, is that
when you plug servers into the Internet, those servers have the potential to
affect any - or every - other server on the Internet. It's unfortunate, but
the minimum level of competence is necessarily higher when you plug servers
into the Internet, than when you plug them into your own private network.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
voice: (202) 797-5496
fax: (202) 797-5444
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Len Conrad]

Well Len thanks for calling me lazy and incompetent.  Until I got
blacklisted I did not know about open relays.  So how does that put me in
either category?

If you run a public mail server, don't know what open relays are, nor how 
to close your own, that's incompetence.

The mail server I was running had no documentation about
the possible abuse of or even the existence of open relays.

then change mail servers.  there's lotsa of good ones around, commercial 
and free.

I can guarantee you that had I received a warning, it would certainly 
would have energized me to deal with the situation.

So would have coming in the office one morning to find your mail server 
hijacked and the transit point for 30K abuse mails/hour all night, and 600K 
mail queued up to go, disk full.

Please watch those blanket statements in the future...because I am far from
lazy or incompetent...you weenie ;-)

As with MS and their repeated security screw ups, the grace period for open 
relays is over, long ago.  That said, if you pay to pay MAPS and DL their 
RBL reverse zone, it's 10+ mb of open relays, IIRC.

(Don't put your mailbox server on internet as MX host, either.)

Len


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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Len Conrad]

Yup..I'll take the hit...I should have done more research.  The fact still
remains that groups like ORDB are going too far in their approach to SPAM

They do much more good than harm, ime.  collateral damage isn't fun for the 
damaged, but it's recoverable.  These people are doing voluntary work.

Len


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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Paris Lundis]

I just believe ORBS is far to aggressive and then when you want to say its
fixed, far too slow... the concept in theory is fine...

wish we would start blocking massive DNS blocks and IPS and all sorts of
other things across the board... but only when cause exists... (ie:
something wrong has happened).. and where people in charge are notified or
documentable attempts have been made to contact the power people on the side
of error/problem...

Sure would work nicely with all the virulent crap circling the web.. sure
would put a damper on things... guess it also would place in part,
competitors and such in there too :)

-paris




-Original Message-
From: Len Conrad [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 13:57
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


Yup..I'll take the hit...I should have done more research.  The fact still
remains that groups like ORDB are going too far in their approach to SPAM

They do much more good than harm, ime.  collateral damage isn't fun for the
damaged, but it's recoverable.  These people are doing voluntary work.

Len


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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Jon Hall]

I don't know if that is correct.
ORDB and the like will get the dumb spammers, but I'd say 95% of the people
that get blacklisted are admins with misconfigured servers. Perhaps less,
but I think misconfigured servers are the majority. In these cases as soon
as the admin is aware of the problem he/she fixes it. If the blacklist
services just sent an email before blacklisting the server most of the anger
directed at these services would not exist. I know I would totally support
them, if they just sent an email first.

However, most intelligent spammers don't rely on relays, or stick to blocks
of ip's. They take over unused address space and spam away, then drop off
the net, or even have their own backbones. These blacklisters are only a
false sense of security, run by a bunch of nerds who get a kick out of the
power to stop someone else's email server.

jon
- Original Message -
From: Len Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Yup..I'll take the hit...I should have done more research.  The fact
still
 remains that groups like ORDB are going too far in their approach to SPAM

 They do much more good than harm, ime.  collateral damage isn't fun for
the
 damaged, but it's recoverable.  These people are doing voluntary work.

 Len




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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

h..voluntarily breaking the law you meanthe predecessor to ORDB was
ORBS (from Aussie Land) and they got shut down after having two successful
legal injunction brought against them.


Anyhoo...I'm sure we've beaten this subject to death and nothing is going to
change until someone with deep pocktes and some time on there hands sues
these guys just like the last ones.

Lets put this puppy to rest nowwe're all right in our own little worlds
;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Ditto

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Exactly my point

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Justin Greene]

It is so funny to see this discussion keep cropping up.  The whole
blacklisting of open relays is a very touchy issue.  I agree that there is
little excuse for running an open relay in today's world (though some argue
that it is their right... I think this was an issue in MIT vs. MAPS).  I
will not agree however that running one makes you ignorant.  I have been
blacklisted and not notified.  The blacklist claims that it is not their
responsibility to let me know that I was listed.  Turns out that the mail
server we were using (post.office) has few bugs (or holes) in it's relay
filtering and that the only way to prevent it from being used as an open
relay is to IP restrict who can connect.  This is contrary to the
documentation.  I only found out about this because a users mail was being
rejected and I was able to get a copy of the test that had failed and
confirm the bug.  This information in hand I resolved it.  It have been nice
to know I had failed though so that it could have been resolved sooner, this
would have been even more effective than blocking me.

MAPS has basically been put out of business by getting sued over this issue
(I think it was the legal costs though, not the settlements that killed
them).  It will probably not be long before the others follow suit (no pun
intended).  The Internet is a collection of private networks and it is
within the rights of the owner of every single network to decide who may and
may not pass traffic across their backbone, so if they want to subscribe to
an ORB, it is their right, however you block someone with deep pockets and
you are in for an expensive fight, right or not.

my $.002

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Howie Hamlin]

Just as a clarification:

The IMS mentioned below is emwac IMS (http://www1.sica.com/ims/) and not our mail 
server product.  On-Line Data Solutions owns the
trademark to iMS but there are many web sites that refer to the old emwac server as 
IMS.

Regards,

--
Howie Hamlin - inFusion Project Manager
On-Line Data Solutions, Inc. - www.CoolFusion.com  - 631-737-4668 x101
inFusion Mail Server (iMS) - The Intelligent Mail Server
 Vote for iMS as the CFDJ Reader's Choice Awards Most Innovative Product 
http://www.sys-con.com/coldfusion/readerschoice2001/nominationformbpa.cfm
 Find out how iMS Stacks up to the competition: 
http://www.coolfusion.com/imssecomparison.cfm

- Original Message -
From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Hey All,

 cf_rant
 I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of the blackhole
 database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing favours
 by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
 (allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their implementation
 SUCKS!

 The Scenario:

 I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and hosting a
 client's domain during development).  After about 8 months with no mail
 issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages from ORDB.org and
 then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had been
 added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs so they can
 block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.

 SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning and
 no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well that bit of
 strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any mail
 (BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).  You then have
 to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
 re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12 plus hrs).  If
 you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again (which I had to do).

 My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS and
 found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
 Soft...get it).

 My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care that
 my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
 because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So these
 guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
 allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide behind
 the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
 database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use the gun I
 handed him!!

 Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against them and had to
 shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
 someone with the time and money will go after them too...awww what a
 shame *insert eveil grin here*
 /cf_rant

 Thanks for listening...and get ArgoSoft's mail serversuper easy to use
 and install

 Bryan Stevenson
 VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
 Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
 p. 250.920.8830
 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

 To go back to your gun analogy,
 we are restricted in possession and use of guns in order to reduce the
 likelihood of homicides.  Otherwise, I should be able to carry a locked
and
 loaded gun anywhere I choose.

 open relay MX's lying around will be picked up by spammers and used as
 weapons.  Running an open relay is inexcusable.

 Len

And shutting people down with no warning is also inexusable

Bryan



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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

I would agree that it would be best to give a warning with an opportunity to
fix the problem.  However, the fact that your relay was open is the source
of the problem.  If I found myself in the appropriate role, upon hearing of
open relays in my company I'd start handing out directions to the local
unemployment office.  If you can't configure it properly, don't run it.


- Original Message -
From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


  To go back to your gun analogy,
  we are restricted in possession and use of guns in order to reduce the
  likelihood of homicides.  Otherwise, I should be able to carry a locked
 and
  loaded gun anywhere I choose.
 
  open relay MX's lying around will be picked up by spammers and used as
  weapons.  Running an open relay is inexcusable.
 
  Len

 And shutting people down with no warning is also inexusable

 Bryan

 
 
  http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training
  http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.4 for NT4  W2K
  http://IMGate.MEIway.com  : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail
gateways
 
 
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Geesh...glad I don't work for you ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Michael Dinowitz]

Other than black hole lists, I don't know of any. I read of a distributed 
system being worked up on slashdot a few days back. I was going to suggest 
the same thing for iMS users to catalog email addresses, subjects, etc. of 
spam to be blocked.

At 03:15 PM 12/4/01, you wrote:
I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?


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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

Yeah, I saw the thing on Slashdot too - I'll probably investigate that.

- Original Message -
From: Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Other than black hole lists, I don't know of any. I read of a distributed
 system being worked up on slashdot a few days back. I was going to suggest
 the same thing for iMS users to catalog email addresses, subjects, etc. of
 spam to be blocked.

 At 03:15 PM 12/4/01, you wrote:
 I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
 any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?
 
 
 
~~
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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Cameron Childress]

www.orbz.org


Cameron Childress
elliptIQ Inc.
p.770.460.1035.232
f.770.460.0963
--
http://www.neighborware.com
America's Leading Community Network Software





 -Original Message-
 From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 3:20 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Other than black hole lists, I don't know of any. I read of a distributed
 system being worked up on slashdot a few days back. I was going
 to suggest
 the same thing for iMS users to catalog email addresses,
 subjects, etc. of
 spam to be blocked.

 At 03:15 PM 12/4/01, you wrote:
 I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
 any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?
 
 
 
~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Howie Hamlin]

iMS does have direct support for ORBs-type blackhole lists...

Regards,

Howie

- Original Message - 
From: Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Other than black hole lists, I don't know of any. I read of a distributed 
 system being worked up on slashdot a few days back. I was going to suggest 
 the same thing for iMS users to catalog email addresses, subjects, etc. of 
 spam to be blocked.
 
 At 03:15 PM 12/4/01, you wrote:
 I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
 any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?
 
 
 
~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Len Conrad]

I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?

We run an SMTP anti-abuse gateway, and subcribe it to selected RBL servers, 
do DNS validations, enforce SMTP protocol compliance, regex filters on 
headers, bodies, attachments.  This kills 90% of spam, and a bunch of 
worms, virii, too without costing anything.

A couple of new ones that look promising are spamassassin.taint.org and
tmda.sourceforge.net.

Another one combines the MAIL FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a lookup of the 
owner of the sending mailserver's ip.  If you say [EMAIL PROTECTED] and your 
mailserver is not an AOL ip, click.

Len



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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Michael Dinowitz]

I know but I don't like them much as they've banned me in the past even 
though I'm covered hole wise. What I want is a distributed network for 
people who know each other to be able to pull down definitions of spam from 
subject lines (and portions of the same), email from, email to, etc. An 
automatic download of an WDDX packet every night would allow us to be up to 
date and we would know where each spam setting came from.

At 03:47 PM 12/4/01, you wrote:
iMS does have direct support for ORBs-type blackhole lists...

Regards,

Howie

- Original Message -
From: Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


  Other than black hole lists, I don't know of any. I read of a distributed
  system being worked up on slashdot a few days back. I was going to suggest
  the same thing for iMS users to catalog email addresses, subjects, etc. of
  spam to be blocked.
 
  At 03:15 PM 12/4/01, you wrote:
  I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
  any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?
  
  
 

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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

Personally, I'd like to avoid the blackhole lists.  Reason being, it's very
easy to get unfairly placed on their list - perfect example was the
VerizonMail.com? domain.  I'd like to avoid as much spam as possible, but
still take as much care to ensure that real users (ie, non-scumbags) can
reach me.  The moment that I have to tell a friend, business associate, or
potential customer that their email couldn't reach me because my spam filter
caught them, is the moment that I've gone too far.

One liner to prevent 100% of spam:
*@*.*

- Original Message -
From: Len Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 I was looking at automating my server-side SPAM filtering.  Are there
 any resources for pulling known SPAM addresses?  Free, as in beer?

 We run an SMTP anti-abuse gateway, and subcribe it to selected RBL
servers,
 do DNS validations, enforce SMTP protocol compliance, regex filters on
 headers, bodies, attachments.  This kills 90% of spam, and a bunch of
 worms, virii, too without costing anything.

 A couple of new ones that look promising are spamassassin.taint.org and
 tmda.sourceforge.net.

 Another one combines the MAIL FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a lookup of the
 owner of the sending mailserver's ip.  If you say [EMAIL PROTECTED] and your
 mailserver is not an AOL ip, click.

 Len


 
 
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Hey All,

cf_rant
I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of the blackhole
database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing favours
by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
(allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their implementation
SUCKS!

The Scenario:

I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and hosting a
client's domain during development).  After about 8 months with no mail
issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages from ORDB.org and
then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had been
added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs so they can
block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.

SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning and
no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well that bit of
strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any mail
(BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).  You then have
to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12 plus hrs).  If
you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again (which I had to do).

My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS and
found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
Soft...get it).

My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care that
my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So these
guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide behind
the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use the gun I
handed him!!

Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against them and had to
shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
someone with the time and money will go after them too...awww what a
shame *insert eveil grin here*
/cf_rant

Thanks for listening...and get ArgoSoft's mail serversuper easy to use
and install

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

~~
Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more 
resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Troy Montour]

Bryan,
I know your feeling they did it to me while I was first setting up my
server for my domain and a friends. and it was a bear to get it off there
cause it was new software that I never used but after getting it set-up it
was a good software package. The mail server is from icewarp called Merak it
cost money but has some nice features with it.
if you want to check them out its
www.icewarp.com

but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Troy Montour
Vampires Inc

- Original Message -
From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Hey All,

 cf_rant
 I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of the blackhole
 database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing favours
 by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
 (allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their implementation
 SUCKS!

 The Scenario:

 I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and hosting a
 client's domain during development).  After about 8 months with no mail
 issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages from ORDB.org
and
 then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had been
 added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs so they can
 block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.

 SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning and
 no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well that bit of
 strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any
mail
 (BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).  You then
have
 to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
 re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12 plus hrs).
If
 you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again (which I had to
do).

 My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS and
 found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
 Soft...get it).

 My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care
that
 my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
 because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So these
 guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
 allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide behind
 the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
 database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use the gun I
 handed him!!

 Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against them and had to
 shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
 someone with the time and money will go after them too...awww what a
 shame *insert eveil grin here*
 /cf_rant

 Thanks for listening...and get ArgoSoft's mail serversuper easy to use
 and install

 Bryan Stevenson
 VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
 Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
 p. 250.920.8830
 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq
Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Paris Lundis]

yeah we have had problems with ORBS... weirdly it called one of our servers
open somehow because we customarily bounce bad mail back or have a responder
reply that the account has moved or is invalid... whatever, no relaying...
or so it says in my configuration..

based on their lack of service, documentation and slow response if is an ass
burner...

I had a ditto experience a while back... sooner or later someone will haul
them in and find five others and class action them...

It is a nice gesture... but way to heavy handed... they should at least
allow unlimited resubmissions for debugging purposes never nice dealing
with them...

It is like dealing with the Borg...

Well two of us.. who else hates this piece of net trash?

-paris




-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 15:48
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


Hey All,

cf_rant
I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of the blackhole
database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing favours
by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
(allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their implementation
SUCKS!

The Scenario:

I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and hosting a
client's domain during development).  After about 8 months with no mail
issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages from ORDB.org and
then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had been
added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs so they can
block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.

SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning and
no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well that bit of
strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any mail
(BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).  You then have
to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12 plus hrs).  If
you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again (which I had to do).

My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS and
found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
Soft...get it).

My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care that
my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So these
guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide behind
the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use the gun I
handed him!!

Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against them and had to
shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
someone with the time and money will go after them too...awww what a
shame *insert eveil grin here*
/cf_rant

Thanks for listening...and get ArgoSoft's mail serversuper easy to use
and install

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]


~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq
Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[BILLY CRAVENS]

My opinion would be that if you are running a mail server, it is your
responsibility to be aware of and control how it relays.  (IMO, falls into
the same bucket as setting up IIS and being aware of things like Code Red)
However, I will agree that some of the blackhole lists are a bit flawed in
their implementation.

- Original Message -
From: Troy Montour [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Bryan,
 I know your feeling they did it to me while I was first setting up my
 server for my domain and a friends. and it was a bear to get it off there
 cause it was new software that I never used but after getting it set-up it
 was a good software package. The mail server is from icewarp called Merak
it
 cost money but has some nice features with it.
 if you want to check them out its
 www.icewarp.com

 but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

 Troy Montour
 Vampires Inc

 - Original Message -
 From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:48 PM
 Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


  Hey All,
 
  cf_rant
  I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of the blackhole
  database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing
favours
  by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
  (allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their
implementation
  SUCKS!
 
  The Scenario:
 
  I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and hosting a
  client's domain during development).  After about 8 months with no mail
  issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages from ORDB.org
 and
  then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had
been
  added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs so they can
  block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.
 
  SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning
and
  no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well that bit of
  strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any
 mail
  (BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).  You then
 have
  to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
  re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12 plus hrs).
 If
  you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again (which I had to
 do).
 
  My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS
and
  found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
  Soft...get it).
 
  My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care
 that
  my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
  because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So
these
  guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
  allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide
behind
  the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
  database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use the gun I
  handed him!!
 
  Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against them and had
to
  shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
  someone with the time and money will go after them too...awww what a
  shame *insert eveil grin here*
  /cf_rant
 
  Thanks for listening...and get ArgoSoft's mail serversuper easy to
use
  and install
 
  Bryan Stevenson
  VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
  Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
  p. 250.920.8830
  e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq
Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists

RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Paris Lundis]

oh yeah without a doubt one should be responsible if something isn't locked
down.. but I don't see anyone suing people because they spread a virus via
there email contact list unknowingly or the mass of traffic/faulty attacks
generated when one of these worms gets loose... I only see one or two
providers saying enough is enough and axing their users access until the
patch

the difference between an open mail relay and an open server is graphically
different

an open server can expose privileged information, be used to attack other
machines, giveaway source and other intellectual property...

an open relay can only be used to send mail...

blocking an open mail server that hasn't sent or relayed any bad mail is
like giving everyone drinking a beer a DUI because they theoretically have
the ability to achieve such.. or a homicide case to a gun owner...

this prevention mentality fails really badly...  relaying is in part a
positive thing and needed in some circumstances... otherwise it wouldn't
ever be a feature...

should I take an anonymous FTP section owner and sue him because my program
theoretically could be stored on his site illegally or scads of other
preventative measures against normal web services... or maybe we can block
DNS entries of sites we don't politically agree with...

I should stop before someone gets some bad ideas really...

-paris


-Original Message-
From: BILLY CRAVENS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 17:40
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


My opinion would be that if you are running a mail server, it is your
responsibility to be aware of and control how it relays.  (IMO, falls into
the same bucket as setting up IIS and being aware of things like Code Red)
However, I will agree that some of the blackhole lists are a bit flawed in
their implementation.

- Original Message -
From: Troy Montour [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 Bryan,
 I know your feeling they did it to me while I was first setting up my
 server for my domain and a friends. and it was a bear to get it off there
 cause it was new software that I never used but after getting it set-up it
 was a good software package. The mail server is from icewarp called Merak
it
 cost money but has some nice features with it.
 if you want to check them out its
 www.icewarp.com

 but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

 Troy Montour
 Vampires Inc

 - Original Message -
 From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:48 PM
 Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


  Hey All,
 
  cf_rant
  I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of the blackhole
  database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing
favours
  by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
  (allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their
implementation
  SUCKS!
 
  The Scenario:
 
  I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and hosting a
  client's domain during development).  After about 8 months with no mail
  issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages from ORDB.org
 and
  then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had
been
  added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs so they can
  block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.
 
  SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning
and
  no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well that bit of
  strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any
 mail
  (BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).  You then
 have
  to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
  re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12 plus hrs).
 If
  you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again (which I had to
 do).
 
  My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS
and
  found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
  Soft...get it).
 
  My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care
 that
  my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
  because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So
these
  guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
  allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide
behind
  the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
  database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use the gun I
  handed him!!
 
  Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against them and had
to
  shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
  someone with the time and money will go after them too...awww what a
  shame *insert eveil grin here*
  /cf_rant
 
  Thanks

RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Cameron Childress]

 My opinion would be that if you are running a mail server, it is your
 responsibility to be aware of and control how it relays.  (IMO, falls into
 the same bucket as setting up IIS and being aware of things like Code Red)

I second this opinion.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining your servers
in a net-friendly manner.  Some people don't know how, others forget or
don't have the time.  Too much effort to track down and warn everyone (how
they supposed to do that anyway?).  Blacklisting is the only way.

 However, I will agree that some of the blackhole lists are a bit flawed in
 their implementation.

True, so true...

-Cameron


Cameron Childress
elliptIQ Inc.
p.770.460.1035.232
f.770.460.0963
--
http://www.neighborware.com
America's Leading Community Network Software





 -Original Message-
 From: BILLY CRAVENS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 5:40 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


 My opinion would be that if you are running a mail server, it is your
 responsibility to be aware of and control how it relays.  (IMO, falls into
 the same bucket as setting up IIS and being aware of things like Code Red)
 However, I will agree that some of the blackhole lists are a bit flawed in
 their implementation.

 - Original Message -
 From: Troy Montour [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:34 PM
 Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


  Bryan,
  I know your feeling they did it to me while I was first
 setting up my
  server for my domain and a friends. and it was a bear to get it
 off there
  cause it was new software that I never used but after getting
 it set-up it
  was a good software package. The mail server is from icewarp
 called Merak
 it
  cost money but has some nice features with it.
  if you want to check them out its
  www.icewarp.com
 
  but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.
 
  Troy Montour
  Vampires Inc
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:48 PM
  Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?
 
 
   Hey All,
  
   cf_rant
   I just had an mazingly frustrating experiences with one of
 the blackhole
   database maintainers (ordb.org).  These folks think they are doing
 favours
   by helping ISP's to block mail server IPs that are running open relays
   (allow spammers to send using that mail server), but their
 implementation
   SUCKS!
  
   The Scenario:
  
   I'm running  a development box with IMS as a mail server (and
 hosting a
   client's domain during development).  After about 8 months
 with no mail
   issues whatsoever I receive a bunch of spam test messages
 from ORDB.org
  and
   then get a message saying that my mai lever was an open relay and had
 been
   added to their database.  This database is provided to ISPs
 so they can
   block ALL mail coming from the IP addresses in it.
  
   SOOOOO ORDB thinks it's best to just add my IP with NO warning
 and
   no chance to fix the issue before getting blacklisted.  Well
 that bit of
   strong arming shut down my mail server and my client couldn't send any
  mail
   (BTW my logs show that no spam EVER went through the system).
  You then
  have
   to try and fix the problem (not easy in IMS) and submit your IP for
   re-testing (which they say takes 5-10 hours...reality was 12
 plus hrs).
  If
   you haven't closed the relay then you have to try again
 (which I had to
  do).
  
   My client was without e-mail for over 2 days.  I had to get rid of IMS
 and
   found a GREAT free mail servr that allows SMTP authentication (Argo
   Soft...get it).
  
   My communications with ORDB were less than fruitful.  They didn't care
  that
   my mail service was interrupted and said they don't give you a warning
   because then more spam would get through (which there was none). So
 these
   guys would rather innocent people lose their mail service instead of
   allowing a few more spams through...geesh.  To top it off they hide
 behind
   the well it;s the ISPs that block you..we just provide them with the
   database of IPs.  Which transaltes to He didn't have to use
 the gun I
   handed him!!
  
   Well their predecesor ORBS had 2 legal injunctions against
 them and had
 to
   shut down.  I'm sure if they continue to stop valid mail service that
   someone with the time and money will go after them
 too...awww what a
   shame *insert eveil grin here*
   /cf_rant
  
   Thanks for listening...and get ArgoSoft's mail serversuper easy to
 use
   and install
  
   Bryan Stevenson
   VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
   Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
   p. 250.920.8830
   e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
 
 
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq
Archives

Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Go Paris!  I think we see eye-to-eye ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Ahh yes...blacklisting is fine BUT

They should give you a few days grace to fix the issue before they do it.  A
little more spam won't hurt anyone and the grace period means that the valid
users of the mail server don't have their service interuppted as a result of
the blacklisting without notification.

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[tom muck]

The only thing worse than spam is that nazi-like ORBZ.

tom

Paris Lundis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
 yeah we have had problems with ORBS... weirdly it called one of our
servers
 open somehow because we customarily bounce bad mail back or have a
responder
 reply that the account has moved or is invalid... whatever, no relaying...
 or so it says in my configuration..


~~
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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Bryan Stevenson]

yup..but they are gone apparently..the lawyer got 'em

Now can I hear a big w what a shame ;-)

Bryan Stevenson
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
p. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

~~
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RE: OT: SPAM lists?

[Paris Lundis]

amen.


-Original Message-
From: tom muck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 18:20
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: OT: SPAM lists?


The only thing worse than spam is that nazi-like ORBZ.

tom

Paris Lundis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
 yeah we have had problems with ORBS... weirdly it called one of our
servers
 open somehow because we customarily bounce bad mail back or have a
responder
 reply that the account has moved or is invalid... whatever, no relaying...
 or so it says in my configuration..



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Re: OT: SPAM lists?

[Len Conrad]

To go back to your gun analogy,
we are restricted in possession and use of guns in order to reduce the
likelihood of homicides.  Otherwise, I should be able to carry a locked and
loaded gun anywhere I choose.

open relay MX's lying around will be picked up by spammers and used as 
weapons.  Running an open relay is inexcusable.

Len


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