Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/20/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember our class that provides this looks like this class Order ActiveRecord::Base end I could also do this Order.find_by_state(Virginia) Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too Order.find_by_state_and_firstname(Virginia,Bob) Well John I'll have to investigate further. If you are saying that Ruby has built in methods in a buiult-in class called order, then that is pretty interesting. I may also have completely missed what you were saying ;-) No, I'm saying Order extends ActiveRecord::Base. ActiveRecord:Base is the class that provides the active record functionality. When you build a Rails app with the generator, every model object automatically looks like this class theObjectYouWantInTheModel ActiveRecord::Base end I must say this line scares me: Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too How the hell does it just know what to do with it if the method isn't even defined??? Reflection. And lots of Ruby-specific magic. Reflection is how Hibernate (Java) can just figure out data types, etc to build your objects on the fly. And just like Arf! and Reactor in CF know how to model database objects. It's pretty common in metaprogramming. Now the specifics of how ruby (not rails, ruby) can add methods on the fly is a Ruby-specfic feature that's *really* cool. But CF can add methods on the fly as well (see all the recent discussion of Mixins on the list for example. The real value of Rails is that it's an integrated package of really well-thought-out base components that work together really well for building web applications. But if I have to pick one part that knocks it out of the park, it's ActiveRecord -- I want just that for CF (Arf is a good start) which can then be plugged into any VC controller you want (MG, MachII, FB to name a few). Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238401 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Thanks John, Yer on my hit list for when I can find some time to play with it more...I'll have loads of questionsfor now it's back to paying work ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238403 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
That's pretty cool. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 8:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion On 4/19/06, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't want to use the command prompt. It's clunky, outdated and a pain to get around. I'm enough of a visual person that it makes FAR more sense (to ME) to use a visual interface to do things. Then use RadRails in Eclipse and click the button that launches the generate script. I don't understand how that's a lot more visual, but it's just as easy. Why can't they just code it so that you load up a page in localhost/ruby and type in the same things you'd type into the command line? You mean like this? :) http://tryruby.hobix.com/ -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238259 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Thanks again John...appreciated! !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 8:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion On 4/19/06, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow... What a great conversation! Here's what I want to accomplish in my testing of RoR. I want to be able to view the parsed files in my local dev setup, currently using XAMPP. Not sure what you mean by parsed files. Ruby is interpreted if you mean the files that are _generated_ by the command lines scripts in Ruby (or the RadRails GUI or what have you), then they're right there in your app directory. Running Ruby in a server environment requires cgi, fastcgi, scgi or the like. If you're comfortable with XAMPP, then you might want to look at InstantRails -- it's based on the XAMPP distro (and even includes PHP4 and MySQL) and gives you, well, and Instant Rails environment that does not interact with the rest of your system. I really would prefer NOT having to start the Ruby server, just a preference there I guess. The whole point of me wanting to learn a new language/structure is to try and save time, not spend it. No problem, but it's *far* easier when you're learning to use the webbrick server (Ruby server) instead of dealing with fastcgi/etc (*especially* on Windows). If you're on Windows, InstantRails is your fastest path while Locomotive gets you running quickly on OSX. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238260 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Remember our class that provides this looks like this class Order ActiveRecord::Base end I could also do this Order.find_by_state(Virginia) Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too Order.find_by_state_and_firstname(Virginia,Bob) Well John I'll have to investigate further. If you are saying that Ruby has built in methods in a buiult-in class called order, then that is pretty interesting. I may also have completely missed what you were saying ;-) I must say this line scares me: Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too How the hell does it just know what to do with it if the method isn't even defined??? Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238305 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
The method IS defined, but in the background is what I guess he means. That does sound pretty cool. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:53 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion Remember our class that provides this looks like this class Order ActiveRecord::Base end I could also do this Order.find_by_state(Virginia) Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too Order.find_by_state_and_firstname(Virginia,Bob) Well John I'll have to investigate further. If you are saying that Ruby has built in methods in a buiult-in class called order, then that is pretty interesting. I may also have completely missed what you were saying ;-) I must say this line scares me: Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too How the hell does it just know what to do with it if the method isn't even defined??? Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238307 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
-Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:49 PM Does anyone have a good comparison of the two? Not really. I was looking forward to Mr Corfield's insights after he mentioned he was taking a look at it, but he's presumably been too busy of late as he only wrote one short article on the topic. So I understand that this will be a little tougher than just a is x better than y question. Indeed. I tried getting RoR running on my local dev machine and was immediately turned off by the fact that you have to do so much work using the command prompt. Have the RoR developers never heard of a web browser? As they say, you gotta start somewhere. What would you prefer - an extra year of development time for a cross-platform GUI, or something usable today? There are two different OSS IDEs in development, both based on Eclipse, so give them time and they'll have something tangible, same as the CFEclipse team. To be honest, there are only a few basic commands that you need to know, and you'll remember them in no time flat. The way I see it is that they approach the issue from two distinct points of view. First off, you can't directly compare RoR and CF as they provide two very different workflows - RoR has a vast array of helpers in the forms of an ORB layer dubbed ActiveRecord, scaffolding to automatically generate code for you, migrations and Capistrano for simplifying deployment, etc; with CF you get the server and Notepad :o) To fairly compare the two you need to start adding in extras to the CF equation, which complicates life as there are many options for the equivelant RoR layers - the ORB, the code generation, the framework itself, the AJAX layer, etc. Once you build up the CF side of the equation you have to start with the core languages - Ruby versus ColdFusion. Ruby itself is fairly interesting language as compared to the C/C++/Java/Javascript view on life - syntactically it seems designed around readibility and ease of use for someone with no preconceptions, while CFML is very definitely aimed towards people who know some HTML but want to easily expand that knowledge to do more advanced things, and its ties to Java (and .NET via BlueDragon.NET) expand this advanced-ness to joined-at-the-hip integration with other systems. Personally I think that every developer owes it to themselves to continually expand their abilities through learning new technologies and languages. Amazon has been selling the first edition Agile Web Development with Ruby on Rails book for under $20 for a while, so even people on a tight budget should be able to give it a go. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238150 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) HTH Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238151 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Bryan Stevenson wrote: Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) HTH Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com I would have to concur with the basic idea of this assessment. Vivio Technologies is *very* interested in Rapid Application Development (RAD) and exploring different ways to get the same thing done quickly, and in our own short assessment of RoR there are some simple things that can be done extremely fast and easy. It's just coming up with all the basics first that are the real problem. ColdFusion is great because it allows you to do very custom jobs very quickly. I should note, however, that we are still evaluating RoR, and it should be something that anyone interested in RAD should keep a very close eye on. There is a lot of potential there. HTH! -- Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Blue Dragon Alliance Member [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238152 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
-Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:19 PM It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. You mean if the scaffolds don't do what you need? Or are you talking about its various classes? Of course you're going to have to hand-code something, this isn't Visual Basic ;-) -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238155 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
I thought that same way until I really got into creating some applications with it. To me it's unbelievable how much stuff is available in that framework. I think where most people get hung up is on comparing Rails to CF. Rails is a framework that provides a lot of functionality for you. Ruby, the underlying language would be the comparison to CF. In my opinion, Ruby comes out stronger because it's not only a web app language, it's available straight from the command prompt if you like. Plus, it's not stuck in the middle like CF is, in that CF is a loosely typed language built on top of a strictly typed language which causes some pain. Ruby is built ground up as an object language for which each object has standard methods of to_i, to_s, etc. One thing I will say is that in learning Rails, my CF programming quality has definitely increased. Heck even my javascript programming quality has increased. On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) HTH Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238156 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
You mean if the scaffolds don't do what you need? Or are you talking about its various classes? Of course you're going to have to hand-code something, this isn't Visual Basic ;-) Speaking in very general terms Damien. Simple examplewant to check that the start date is before the end date entered into a form...RoR does NOT do that for youit WILL make sure both dates are dates because they are typed that way in the DB, but you still have to hand code the extra validation. For me...I have clean base app templates lying aroundRoR just doesn't save me enough time to bother (but I'll throw in a big YET). Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238158 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Hey Bryan, not to pick on your or anything :) On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) So just because it's not the Holy Grail it isn't useful? Does that infer CF is the Holy Grail :) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. It's funny, because if I go back to the early CF code that I wrote while learning the language and different frameworks, at that time I would have been saying the same of CF and the frameworks. So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). Or you could just extend those base classes to do the kinds of things you want it to. So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) HTH Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238160 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, if anyone has input on this topic, I'd love to hear it. I tried getting RoR running on my local dev machine and was immediately turned off by the fact that you have to do so much work using the command prompt. Have the RoR developers never heard of a web browser? Having the command line option is great, IMHO, it allows you to create an IDE like RadRails that has gui versions of the generator commands built into it. Maybe I'm more comfortable with the cl, but I feel it gives you a lot more power of the program will do and what's happening with it currently. I like the fact that to start the local server you drop into the command like and type ruby script\server. From then on, the server writes it's logs to stdout so you can always view them. no extra programs to open up. Long live the Command Line! :) !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238161 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
That's it you blaspheming frood, you're off to the Frogstar and into the Total Perspective Vortex! You know, I tried to get into an evaluation of RoR, but from the initial setup to building a couple of apps, it just felt off somehow. It may be great, but it's one of those things, similar to JSP that I just didn't enjoy learning about. It seemed like a lot of extra work to anything custom at all and I kept commenting on how simple it would be to do whatever I was trying to do if I was doing it with CF. It's an unfair and very biased assessment no doubt, but I just didn't enjoy it at all. --Ferg Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: I thought that same way until I really got into creating some applications with it. To me it's unbelievable how much stuff is available in that framework. I think where most people get hung up is on comparing Rails to CF. Rails is a framework that provides a lot of functionality for you. Ruby, the underlying language would be the comparison to CF. In my opinion, Ruby comes out stronger because it's not only a web app language, it's available straight from the command prompt if you like. Plus, it's not stuck in the middle like CF is, in that CF is a loosely typed language built on top of a strictly typed language which causes some pain. Ruby is built ground up as an object language for which each object has standard methods of to_i, to_s, etc. One thing I will say is that in learning Rails, my CF programming quality has definitely increased. Heck even my javascript programming quality has increased. On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) HTH Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238163 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Don't make me read Vogon poetry to you! I can totally understand. At first I was like where in the hell are my application variables? and I realized later that the structure of programming is way different. And as for feeling off.that's kinda the way I feel about ASP.net 2.0. It looks really killer in demos, but when it comes down to creating stuff with it, well.I just didn't like the feel. On 4/19/06, Ken Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's it you blaspheming frood, you're off to the Frogstar and into the Total Perspective Vortex! You know, I tried to get into an evaluation of RoR, but from the initial setup to building a couple of apps, it just felt off somehow. It may be great, but it's one of those things, similar to JSP that I just didn't enjoy learning about. It seemed like a lot of extra work to anything custom at all and I kept commenting on how simple it would be to do whatever I was trying to do if I was doing it with CF. It's an unfair and very biased assessment no doubt, but I just didn't enjoy it at all. --Ferg Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: I thought that same way until I really got into creating some applications with it. To me it's unbelievable how much stuff is available in that framework. I think where most people get hung up is on comparing Rails to CF. Rails is a framework that provides a lot of functionality for you. Ruby, the underlying language would be the comparison to CF. In my opinion, Ruby comes out stronger because it's not only a web app language, it's available straight from the command prompt if you like. Plus, it's not stuck in the middle like CF is, in that CF is a loosely typed language built on top of a strictly typed language which causes some pain. Ruby is built ground up as an object language for which each object has standard methods of to_i, to_s, etc. One thing I will say is that in learning Rails, my CF programming quality has definitely increased. Heck even my javascript programming quality has increased. On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) HTH Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238166 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically with Ruby it comes down to this (in my short investigation of itI stopped because it is NOT the Holy Grail) It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work. I've seen this comment more than once from CF developers and it's simply *not* true. Rails does an enormous amount automatically if you follow the conventions (one of it's explict design principles) but gives you total control of that behavior if you want to customize it: don't like plural table names? ActiveRecord::base.pluralize_table_names=false in environment.rb want to override a table name? class someTable ActiveRecord::Base set_table_name some_crazy_table_name end and so on and so on. You've got to do a rails project before you really start to understand how much is built in So IMHO unless you are writing VERY simple interfaces and data interactions, you might as well just write your code from scratch (or your own wonderful code libraries etc). That's a pretty misleading assessment. Rails apps can be arbitrarily complex without any more limitations than CF except for a few edge cases like good CORBA integration (since we all write so many CORBA-oriented CF apps ;) So no...RoR does not make coding magically simple, but it does make simple coding magic ;-) Having built ColdFusion apps for years and doing my 2nd production Rails app (with several more in various stages of completion, including two CF-Rails ports) I'd say *ASSUMING YOU KNOW RUBY* that you can get more done in Rails than in CF for an equal amount of work. I'd say the same for Java, having done a handful of J2EE and web-based java apps. CF has a couple of specific places where is is currently far superior + Java integration (which in RoR requires web-service or similar integration until JRuby is working) + Flash integration (though the Alph project hooks into Ruby really nicely) + PDF/etc generation And one big plus -- CF works on Windows *far* better than Rails. Rails is a *pain* to configure with stability and performance on Windows. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238167 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
I tried getting RoR running on my local dev machine and was immediately turned off by the fact that you have to do so much work using the command prompt. Have the RoR developers never heard of a web browser? Why would you *develop* in a web browser? I assume that you realize Rails *only* creates web apps so of course they know what a web browser is. In fact, one comes with Rails (WEBrick) that's built in Ruby) As they say, you gotta start somewhere. What would you prefer - an extra year of development time for a cross-platform GUI, or something usable today? There are two different OSS IDEs in development, both based on Eclipse, so give them time and they'll have something tangible, same as the CFEclipse team. To be honest, there are only a few basic commands that you need to know, and you'll remember them in no time flat. RadRails for Eclipse is nice. There's RubyWeaver for Dreamweaver. All the Mac folks seem to use TextMate (which is *gasp* only a text editor -- no WYSIWYG). The way I see it is that they approach the issue from two distinct points of view. First off, you can't directly compare RoR and CF as they provide two very different workflows - RoR has a vast array of helpers in the forms of an ORB layer dubbed ActiveRecord, scaffolding to automatically generate code for you, migrations and Capistrano for simplifying deployment, etc; with CF you get the server and Notepad :o) To fairly compare the two you need to start adding in extras to the CF equation, which complicates life as there are many options for the equivelant RoR layers - the ORB, the code generation, the framework itself, the AJAX layer, etc. Exactly. Rails is a *collection* of tools, libraries, and scripts that support best practices for agile programming. The AJAX stuff, for example, is all from the open source prototype library (one of the two biggies, along with dojo). It's just all packaged really nicely. If you want a similar CF package, take (as an example) Fusebox (replaces Rails ActionPack model and view components) and Reactor (replaces Rails ActiveRecord). package in cf(c)unit and ant. Write a few (perl/python/whatever) scripts that generate an app framework and a few scripts that generate model, view, and controller templates. That's 100% doable. ActiveRecord is amazing, but that's totally portable to CF if someone wanted to (I mean, it's not like the pattern is new). Poof. CF on Rails. Once you build up the CF side of the equation you have to start with the core languages - Ruby versus ColdFusion. Ruby itself is fairly interesting language as compared to the C/C++/Java/Javascript view on life - syntactically it seems designed around readibility and ease of use for someone with no preconceptions, while CFML is very definitely aimed towards people who know some HTML but want to easily expand that knowledge to do more advanced things, and its ties to Java (and .NET via BlueDragon.NET) expand this advanced-ness to joined-at-the-hip integration with other systems. Y -- Ruby is what makes it interesting. I mean, wow, Ruby is crazy cool. But build your CF framework instead if you want. Rails is about 50% activerecord, 30% agile practices, 10% code generation and 10% ruby. Or thereabouts. Personally I think that every developer owes it to themselves to continually expand their abilities through learning new technologies and languages. Amazon has been selling the first edition Agile Web Development with Ruby on Rails book for under $20 for a while, so even people on a tight budget should be able to give it a go. Exactly. That's an excellent book (but many more are coming out) -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238169 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Wow... What a great conversation! Here's what I want to accomplish in my testing of RoR. I want to be able to view the parsed files in my local dev setup, currently using XAMPP. I really would prefer NOT having to start the Ruby server, just a preference there I guess. The whole point of me wanting to learn a new language/structure is to try and save time, not spend it. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238171 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
So just because it's not the Holy Grail it isn't useful? Does that infer CF is the Holy Grail :) No...just saying RoR ain't all it's being hyped up to beit may be useful to youbut so far...not to me. Or you could just extend those base classes to do the kinds of things you want it to. Again showing that RoR is NOT the Holy Grail of app development...it DOES NOT do everything for youjust the basics. Of course...best tool for the job and all thatso far it does not hold enough allure to pull me away from the way I do things nowwe'll see what the future holds. Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238172 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
I don't want to use the command prompt. It's clunky, outdated and a pain to get around. I'm enough of a visual person that it makes FAR more sense (to ME) to use a visual interface to do things. Why can't they just code it so that you load up a page in localhost/ruby and type in the same things you'd type into the command line? !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:12 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion I tried getting RoR running on my local dev machine and was immediately turned off by the fact that you have to do so much work using the command prompt. Have the RoR developers never heard of a web browser? Why would you *develop* in a web browser? I assume that you realize Rails *only* creates web apps so of course they know what a web browser is. In fact, one comes with Rails (WEBrick) that's built in Ruby) As they say, you gotta start somewhere. What would you prefer - an extra year of development time for a cross-platform GUI, or something usable today? There are two different OSS IDEs in development, both based on Eclipse, so give them time and they'll have something tangible, same as the CFEclipse team. To be honest, there are only a few basic commands that you need to know, and you'll remember them in no time flat. RadRails for Eclipse is nice. There's RubyWeaver for Dreamweaver. All the Mac folks seem to use TextMate (which is *gasp* only a text editor -- no WYSIWYG). The way I see it is that they approach the issue from two distinct points of view. First off, you can't directly compare RoR and CF as they provide two very different workflows - RoR has a vast array of helpers in the forms of an ORB layer dubbed ActiveRecord, scaffolding to automatically generate code for you, migrations and Capistrano for simplifying deployment, etc; with CF you get the server and Notepad :o) To fairly compare the two you need to start adding in extras to the CF equation, which complicates life as there are many options for the equivelant RoR layers - the ORB, the code generation, the framework itself, the AJAX layer, etc. Exactly. Rails is a *collection* of tools, libraries, and scripts that support best practices for agile programming. The AJAX stuff, for example, is all from the open source prototype library (one of the two biggies, along with dojo). It's just all packaged really nicely. If you want a similar CF package, take (as an example) Fusebox (replaces Rails ActionPack model and view components) and Reactor (replaces Rails ActiveRecord). package in cf(c)unit and ant. Write a few (perl/python/whatever) scripts that generate an app framework and a few scripts that generate model, view, and controller templates. That's 100% doable. ActiveRecord is amazing, but that's totally portable to CF if someone wanted to (I mean, it's not like the pattern is new). Poof. CF on Rails. Once you build up the CF side of the equation you have to start with the core languages - Ruby versus ColdFusion. Ruby itself is fairly interesting language as compared to the C/C++/Java/Javascript view on life - syntactically it seems designed around readibility and ease of use for someone with no preconceptions, while CFML is very definitely aimed towards people who know some HTML but want to easily expand that knowledge to do more advanced things, and its ties to Java (and .NET via BlueDragon.NET) expand this advanced-ness to joined-at-the-hip integration with other systems. Y -- Ruby is what makes it interesting. I mean, wow, Ruby is crazy cool. But build your CF framework instead if you want. Rails is about 50% activerecord, 30% agile practices, 10% code generation and 10% ruby. Or thereabouts. Personally I think that every developer owes it to themselves to continually expand their abilities through learning new technologies and languages. Amazon has been selling the first edition Agile Web Development with Ruby on Rails book for under $20 for a while, so even people on a tight budget should be able to give it a go. Exactly. That's an excellent book (but many more are coming out) -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238173 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
don't like plural table names? ActiveRecord::base.pluralize_table_names=false in environment.rb want to override a table name? class someTable ActiveRecord::Base set_table_name some_crazy_table_name end Now that I'm finished blowing Coke out my nose Are you seriously saying those examples are remotely useful or time saving? Those examples have NOTHING to do with custom coding (like my simple example I posted a couple posts back...start/end date validation...make sure start date is before end dateRoR will just make sure both dates are dates,...after that you're back to coding as usual). Prove me wrong...show me something amazing!! ;-) I'm all for learnig a new tool IF it's worth my time. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238176 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: don't like plural table names? ActiveRecord::base.pluralize_table_names=false in environment.rb want to override a table name? class someTable ActiveRecord::Base set_table_name some_crazy_table_name end Now that I'm finished blowing Coke out my nose Are you seriously saying those examples are remotely useful or time saving? Those examples have NOTHING to do with custom coding (like my simple example I posted a couple posts back...start/end date validation...make sure start date is before end dateRoR will just make sure both dates are dates,...after that you're back to coding as usual). Prove me wrong...show me something amazing!! ;-) I'm all for learnig a new tool IF it's worth my time. it's not amazing, but in the model you would add def validate errors.add(:start_date,should be earlier than end_date) unless start_date.nil? || start_date end_date end Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238182 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
it's not amazing, but in the model you would add def validate errors.add(:start_date,should be earlier than end_date) unless start_date.nil? || start_date end_date end Exactlyright back to custom coding. So although that is a hair less code than the equivalent in CFit's not so much better/faster/sexier/cheaper that I'm going to change the way I do things todayI will of course keep an eye on it and see how it evolves. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238183 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
And one big plus -- CF works on Windows *far* better than Rails. Rails is a *pain* to configure with stability and performance on Windows. Well, considering that windows servers are a nightmare (/servers/, not desktops), Rails is on the right track. Sorry, I had to say it. ;) jake heads back to his Linux snob corner --- [INFO] -- Access Manager: This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A2 ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238197 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
Are you saying that Ruby (and hence RoR) is a strictly typed language? That's enough to turn me off right there... -Original Message- From: Zaphod Beeblebrox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:35 AM I thought that same way until I really got into creating some applications with it. To me it's unbelievable how much stuff is available in that framework. I think where most people get hung up is on comparing Rails to CF. Rails is a framework that provides a lot of functionality for you. Ruby, the underlying language would be the comparison to CF. In my opinion, Ruby comes out stronger because it's not only a web app language, it's available straight from the command prompt if you like. Plus, it's not stuck in the middle like CF is, in that CF is a loosely typed language built on top of a strictly typed language which causes some pain. Ruby is built ground up as an object language for which each object has standard methods of to_i, to_s, etc. [INFO] -- Access Manager: This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A2 ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238199 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
yeah, it is custom coding, but isn't all your business logic going to be custom code? What if you are required to have a start date, but your end date could be open ended. There's really not an easy way to automate that kind of logic. Rails can make that kind of code easier I believe. Say you only want that validation to work on an update. def validate_on_update #stuff end or def validate_on_create #stuff end Here's another deal. In my number fields, I'll let people enter commas. In my model I'll add: def before_save() self.price = self.price_before_type_cast.gsub(,,).to_i end Rails un-complicates things for me. I know where things need to go and I know the place for them. In rails, I have a model. In CF and the best practices, you've got a model, a dao, a gateway, a transfer object, and a bean. Should a bean have a persist method?, Does the model contain the validation logic or should my bean have it?, What should my dao return, an object or a query?.I consistently see these types of questions floating about in CF-land. In CF, it might be an object you get back, it might be a query. In Rails, I get back an array of objects or maybe just one object. That's a lot easier for me to deal with. When I change a field in the db, I know that every object based on that table will now have that new field. I won't have to go into a dao, add the field to each query, go into the gateway, add the field to each query, edit the bean, add the field to the bean, etc. But, I know where you're coming from. I've been doing CF pretty much exclusively from 98 or 99 until last year. I'd still pick CF over most every other technology. On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it's not amazing, but in the model you would add def validate errors.add(:start_date,should be earlier than end_date) unless start_date.nil? || start_date end_date end Exactlyright back to custom coding. So although that is a hair less code than the equivalent in CFit's not so much better/faster/sexier/cheaper that I'm going to change the way I do things todayI will of course keep an eye on it and see how it evolves. Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238200 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
not at all, it's dynamically typed, this would be valid x=hello x=1 y=x y.to_s = 1 On 4/19/06, Munson, Jacob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying that Ruby (and hence RoR) is a strictly typed language? That's enough to turn me off right there... -Original Message- From: Zaphod Beeblebrox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:35 AM I thought that same way until I really got into creating some applications with it. To me it's unbelievable how much stuff is available in that framework. I think where most people get hung up is on comparing Rails to CF. Rails is a framework that provides a lot of functionality for you. Ruby, the underlying language would be the comparison to CF. In my opinion, Ruby comes out stronger because it's not only a web app language, it's available straight from the command prompt if you like. Plus, it's not stuck in the middle like CF is, in that CF is a loosely typed language built on top of a strictly typed language which causes some pain. Ruby is built ground up as an object language for which each object has standard methods of to_i, to_s, etc. [INFO] -- Access Manager: This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A2 ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238202 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
With the exception of the adding a new field in the DB and it's avaialable evrywhere bit, the other examples are easily handles by CFCsone method to update...another to insert...they do different things...just like your example: def validate_on_update #stuff end or def validate_on_create #stuff end Same goes for validation on Insert/update...seperate methods to handle themso no bonus with RoRo there. Now the add a field bit you mentionedwell just because everything knows about the new field does NOT mean that everything knows what to do with it.so back to having to add custom code tweaks to make everything handle that new field correctly. No sale heretry the Vogons..they're big on super highways...mabye they'll see the light that I cannot ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238203 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't want to use the command prompt. It's clunky, outdated and a pain to get around. I'm enough of a visual person that it makes FAR more sense (to ME) to use a visual interface to do things. Then use RadRails in Eclipse and click the button that launches the generate script. I don't understand how that's a lot more visual, but it's just as easy. Why can't they just code it so that you load up a page in localhost/ruby and type in the same things you'd type into the command line? You mean like this? :) http://tryruby.hobix.com/ -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238232 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow... What a great conversation! Here's what I want to accomplish in my testing of RoR. I want to be able to view the parsed files in my local dev setup, currently using XAMPP. Not sure what you mean by parsed files. Ruby is interpreted if you mean the files that are _generated_ by the command lines scripts in Ruby (or the RadRails GUI or what have you), then they're right there in your app directory. Running Ruby in a server environment requires cgi, fastcgi, scgi or the like. If you're comfortable with XAMPP, then you might want to look at InstantRails -- it's based on the XAMPP distro (and even includes PHP4 and MySQL) and gives you, well, and Instant Rails environment that does not interact with the rest of your system. I really would prefer NOT having to start the Ruby server, just a preference there I guess. The whole point of me wanting to learn a new language/structure is to try and save time, not spend it. No problem, but it's *far* easier when you're learning to use the webbrick server (Ruby server) instead of dealing with fastcgi/etc (*especially* on Windows). If you're on Windows, InstantRails is your fastest path while Locomotive gets you running quickly on OSX. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238233 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: don't like plural table names? ActiveRecord::base.pluralize_table_names=false in environment.rb want to override a table name? class someTable ActiveRecord::Base set_table_name some_crazy_table_name end Now that I'm finished blowing Coke out my nose You need a treatment program for that coke problem ;) Are you seriously saying those examples are remotely useful or time saving? No. I was responding to your comment 'It does lots of stuff for you...right up until it needs to something different then the default...then you are right back writing custom code to make your something different work.' Those are a couple examples of something different than what Rails expects (well, ActiveRecord to be specific, but that's a detail) Those examples have NOTHING to do with custom coding (like my simple example I posted a couple posts back...start/end date validation...make sure start date is before end dateRoR will just make sure both dates are dates,...after that you're back to coding as usual). Rails is the framework. Ruby is the language. You want to check that startDate is less than endDate? You need Ruby. Rails just makes it easy to implement in a web app. codeif startDateendDate /code want to check that it's in between two dates? codeif someDate.between?(startDate,endDate)code Now to roll that into the Rails framework class myClass ActiveRecord::Base def validate unless startDateendDate errors.add(Start date must be less than end date) end end Use it a lot, turn it into a helper and you've got it for any class you want to mix it into. But that's just some trivial validation Prove me wrong...show me something amazing!! ;-) I'm all for learnig a new tool IF it's worth my time. Just in ActiveRecord alone, a short list would be aggregation, single-table inheritance and all the acts_as_tree and acts_as_list. Of course, I think it's pretty great that unit, functional, and performance testing is built right in. And so on and so on. As I've said in an earlier post in this thread, the real value is the whole package that works together -- similar things can be done in CF for the most part. And you can do pretty much exactly the Rails thing in Django if you'd rather use Python :) -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238239 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ruby (on Rails) vs Coldfusion
On 4/19/06, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With the exception of the adding a new field in the DB and it's avaialable evrywhere bit, the other examples are easily handles by CFCsone method to update...another to insert...they do different things...just like your example: First of all, you can write CFCs that reflect the database to dynamically find out the content. So that's not all that amazing from a CF perspective. Butyou're really missing a lot about what's going on under the hood. Here's an example of an ActiveRecord class that models an order class Order ActiveRecord::Base end That's it, two lines of code (hardly worth firing up the command line to generate it...) So what can I do now that I have those two lines? (This is *completely* independent of Rails for what it's worth -- I can do this from a Ruby command line since ActiveRecord is just another class. ) First of all, the class reflects the db to find all the columns and their types. Now, some code Order.find(10) I just found order with the key=10. No code, no sql. That function is built-in and knows what to do. Though to be fair, I should add a few lines to initialize the db connection, which would be taken care of in the Rails environment. Now all the orders that are from virginia and a few variations Order.find(:all, :conditions = state='va') Order.find(:all, :conditions = state='va', and firstname='bob') Order.find(:all, :conditions = state='va' and total1000) of course all the quoting, escaping, and sql-injection is handled for you. And it's easy to paramaterize to the params[] hash (similar to attributes scope in cf) if you're in Rails. Order.find(:all, :conditions = [state = :state and total :total,params) Remember our class that provides this looks like this class Order ActiveRecord::Base end I could also do this Order.find_by_state(Virginia) Note that I'm not adding that method to the code. It just gets figured out. I can do this too Order.find_by_state_and_firstname(Virginia,Bob) Still, by ActiveRecord class is two lines of boilerplate. And we haven't gotten to the CUD parts of CRUD yet. Or the C and V parts of MVC. Or testing/etc. What does the equivalent CFC look like? I do know Arf! can do a little of this, and that Reactor will generate some of this as well. And most of this _could_ be duplicated with a lot of hard work in CF. Of course I *do* still have to write the date range validation by hand :) Same goes for validation on Insert/update...seperate methods to handle themso no bonus with RoRo there. Except that you *don't have to write the methods* in most cases, or at least you write very little. Now the add a field bit you mentionedwell just because everything knows about the new field does NOT mean that everything knows what to do with it.so back to having to add custom code tweaks to make everything handle that new field correctly. Sure it does. You can CRUD it. All of the objects (even aggregate objects) automatically know what to do with it. Etc, etc. No sale heretry the Vogons..they're big on super highways...mabye they'll see the light that I cannot ;-) That's fine -- you don't have to use Rails. But I think you're discounting it without knowing a whole lot about what it really does -- watching the Rails in 15m intro doesn't give you much to go on compared to working throught the Rails book (Agile Web Dev w/ Rails) or building a couple of real apps. Heck, I'm annoyed that I have to write XML to configure all the CF frameworks after I come back from a week or two in YAML land.. but that's a completely different thread ;) -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:238241 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
