Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> Why is it ever inappropriate to comment on something you've read Dan? When you are plugging your own product simultaneously and make they type of comments you made such as how simple it would be to add the functionality that PLUM posses. Dan ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:188216 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
CF-Community pleasethis is clogging up the good stuff, I really am bored of this. If you want to sue Plum or onTap then go for it, if not so be it. There is no right or wrong people and there is no I in Team. Michael any chance you can kill this? -Original Message- From: Greg Luce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2004 17:27 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? You made a rediculous, uninformed, commentary about PLUM, in a veiled attempt to promote you're "Framework". I think you need to "Get Over Yourself" as you put it. Dan is a skilled IT professional as is Adam. You really should apologize to them. Greg On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:27:23 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:13:35 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does > >> most of what > >> PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... it doesn't > >> have an IDE... > >> and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to > >> me like many > >> of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the > >> onTap > >> framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in > >> a matter of > >> minutes. I'll admit I haven't looked at PLUM very deeply, > >> I've just > >> skimmed the feature list, etc. but it wasn't a > >> jaw-dropper for me. > >> > > > Some bold assertions. When you install it and properly > > evaluate it, > > maybe only then would it be appropraite for you to comment > > on it, and > > does not necessarily have to be in contrast with your > > tool. > > > Dan > > Why is it ever inappropriate to comment on something you've read Dan? > ... I went to the site, I read some information about PLUM, I > commented on what I read, and I _said_ I was commenting on what I > read. I don't see anything wrong with that. I may not have said it in > the most politically correct manner, but ... in all honesty, get over > yourself. > > > s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 > new epoch : isn't it time for a change? > > add features without fixtures with > the onTap open source framework > > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 > http://www.fusiontap.com > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:188019 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
You made a rediculous, uninformed, commentary about PLUM, in a veiled attempt to promote you're "Framework". I think you need to "Get Over Yourself" as you put it. Dan is a skilled IT professional as is Adam. You really should apologize to them. Greg On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:27:23 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:13:35 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does > >> most of what > >> PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... it doesn't > >> have an IDE... > >> and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to > >> me like many > >> of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the > >> onTap > >> framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in > >> a matter of > >> minutes. I'll admit I haven't looked at PLUM very deeply, > >> I've just > >> skimmed the feature list, etc. but it wasn't a > >> jaw-dropper for me. > >> > > > Some bold assertions. When you install it and properly > > evaluate it, > > maybe only then would it be appropraite for you to comment > > on it, and > > does not necessarily have to be in contrast with your > > tool. > > > Dan > > Why is it ever inappropriate to comment on something you've read Dan? > ... I went to the site, I read some information about PLUM, I > commented on what I read, and I _said_ I was commenting on what I > read. I don't see anything wrong with that. I may not have said it in > the most politically correct manner, but ... in all honesty, get over > yourself. > > > s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 > new epoch : isn't it time for a change? > > add features without fixtures with > the onTap open source framework > > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 > http://www.fusiontap.com > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:188018 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:13:35 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does >> most of what >> PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... it doesn't >> have an IDE... >> and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to >> me like many >> of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the >> onTap >> framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in >> a matter of >> minutes. I'll admit I haven't looked at PLUM very deeply, >> I've just >> skimmed the feature list, etc. but it wasn't a >> jaw-dropper for me. >> > Some bold assertions. When you install it and properly > evaluate it, > maybe only then would it be appropraite for you to comment > on it, and > does not necessarily have to be in contrast with your > tool. > Dan Why is it ever inappropriate to comment on something you've read Dan? ... I went to the site, I read some information about PLUM, I commented on what I read, and I _said_ I was commenting on what I read. I don't see anything wrong with that. I may not have said it in the most politically correct manner, but ... in all honesty, get over yourself. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187970 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
plum makes that .net junk program will brought up look like Hey hey! Go easy on me here! :) ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187967 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:13:35 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does most of what > PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... it doesn't have an IDE... > and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to me like many > of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the onTap > framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in a matter of > minutes. I'll admit I haven't looked at PLUM very deeply, I've just > skimmed the feature list, etc. but it wasn't a jaw-dropper for me. > Some bold assertions. When you install it and properly evaluate it, maybe only then would it be appropraite for you to comment on it, and does not necessarily have to be in contrast with your tool. Dan ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187965 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:29:51 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "While the Plum IDE doesn't contain a diagramming tool of its own, Plum > Diagrams are easily created using any flowcharting tool from a #2 pencil to > Visio Enterprise -- use the tool of your choice." That helps, yes. Thanx. > You know, Sean, I don't like the name "Plum IDE," anymore really, because it > isn't a traditional IDE. I wanted to call it "Plum Generator" at one time. I think that would have saved a lot of this confusion. Plum isn't what most people think of as an IDE, it's more of a control center for the generator and framework setup. Plum Generator is fine. Plum Control Center might also be fine. Both names would have set very different expectations and focused people on the configuration and administration aspects of the Plum concept I think. > Actually, we show people how Plum's implementation of the ColdFusion > Application Framework is somewhat different from what they're used to. It's > structured in such a way that all functionality is neatly compartmentalized > between global, modular, and environmental behaviors, and it makes > deployment across development/staging/production environments as simple as > possible. Hmm, I guess I just thought this was everyone's best practice already. The Macromedia Web Team CFMX Coding Guidelines have talked about this sort of thing for years (our first internal draft was over three years ago although I can't remember when we put it up on LiveDocs). I guess I'm making assumptions about how a lot of CFers build their apps. Is this global / modular / environmental split not common for folks? > This may sound like marketing drool, but it was actually our positioning > statement: "Plum was designed for developers who want to rapidly prototype > and build solid ColdFusion applications in minimum time." *grin* It's a little... vague... > Sean, I'm sorry if I accused you of trying to talk Plum down yesterday. I > was wrong. It really appears that you are only trying to learn more about > Plum; it just sounded a bit confrontational. No problem. You guys have a lot invested in Plum so you're bound to be a bit touchy about perceived criticism. I think we're all getting a much better handle on what you guys intended Plum to do for folks which is good for everyone involved. -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187938 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Cool. Thanks for the info. J -Original Message- From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? Plum installation / uninstallation shouldn't mess with the Registry at all. Plum has its own configuration file in XML. By default, Plum stores Client variables in the Registry, but we tell people throughout Plum to use another method as soon as possible. The only reason why Plum defaults to Registry for Client storage is because ColdFusion does so as well, and it saves additional steps from the setup process. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 - Original Message - From: "Joe Rinehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? > Plum can be uninstalled through Add / Remove programs. Not sure what > it leaves behind...Adam? > > -joe > > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:26:58 -0500, Jerry Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What kind of install is Plum? Does the install leave you with a simple > > exe or does it sink its hooks into the registery and other places? I'd > > like to look at it, but I don't want to have a lot of material left > > behind if I decide to uninstall. > > > > J > > > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187936 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
No! Don't make me subscribe to CF-Community. This is good stuff. On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:10:15 -, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm bored of thisCF-Community anyone? > > > -Original Message- > From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 16 December 2004 14:58 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? > > Plum can be uninstalled through Add / Remove programs. Not sure what > it leaves behind...Adam? > > -joe > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:26:58 -0500, Jerry Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > What kind of install is Plum? Does the install leave you with a simple > > exe or does it sink its hooks into the registery and other places? I'd > > like to look at it, but I don't want to have a lot of material left > > behind if I decide to uninstall. > > > > J > > > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187889 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Plum installation / uninstallation shouldn't mess with the Registry at all. Plum has its own configuration file in XML. By default, Plum stores Client variables in the Registry, but we tell people throughout Plum to use another method as soon as possible. The only reason why Plum defaults to Registry for Client storage is because ColdFusion does so as well, and it saves additional steps from the setup process. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 - Original Message - From: "Joe Rinehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? > Plum can be uninstalled through Add / Remove programs. Not sure what > it leaves behind...Adam? > > -joe > > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:26:58 -0500, Jerry Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What kind of install is Plum? Does the install leave you with a simple > > exe or does it sink its hooks into the registery and other places? I'd > > like to look at it, but I don't want to have a lot of material left > > behind if I decide to uninstall. > > > > J > > > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187886 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/PlumDetail.cfm?id=diagrammingss I just added this: "While the Plum IDE doesn't contain a diagramming tool of its own, Plum Diagrams are easily created using any flowcharting tool from a #2 pencil to Visio Enterprise -- use the tool of your choice." It should be more clear now, Sean. Thanks for pointing out the confusion. > I've been reading through the tutorials and I can now see that there's > a *lot* of manual editing of specific .cfm files involved. When we designed Plum, an important task was to keep the Plum IDE as simple as possible. We took the majority of what people would need to do quickly when first building a website and built the controls for that in the Plum IDE, then we left the remainder up to the Plum Framework, Plum's custom tag editors, and handcrafting. We never liked the idea of trying to do everything in an IDE; just boost the initial development to a significantly forward point in the project, then give the developer the tools he needs to take it from there on his own. Our philosophy all along. > The website > is very impressive and makes it sound like Plum does a bunch of stuff > that it actually doesn't seem to do. It talks about an IDE and > diagramming but really it doesn't do any of that. You know, Sean, I don't like the name "Plum IDE," anymore really, because it isn't a traditional IDE. I wanted to call it "Plum Generator" at one time. Do you think that's a better name for the desktop application than "Plum IDE?" Do you think getting rid of the term "IDE" and clarifying the fact that Plum doesn't contain a diagramming tool would help avoid confusion? > It generates CRUD code from a database. It has a custom tag based > framework for master-detail CRUD form-heavy apps. It has a CMS > (although it's not clear how that fits in with the generated CRUD > code). > > The tutorials go into mind-numbing detail about some things I'd expect > all ColdFusion programmers to know (the Application.cfm / > OnRequestEnd.cfm stuff for example) but are generally very clear - > clear about all the manual editing steps, for example. Actually, we show people how Plum's implementation of the ColdFusion Application Framework is somewhat different from what they're used to. It's structured in such a way that all functionality is neatly compartmentalized between global, modular, and environmental behaviors, and it makes deployment across development/staging/production environments as simple as possible. > Adam, could you provide a clearer statement of your target audience? > I've spent a couple of hours reading through everything now and I'm > still not really clear who you're aiming Plum at. As far as I can > tell, it isn't aimed at anyone using an existing framework or an > existing code generator (like Joseph Flannigan's, which just creates > CFCs you can use with any framework). It doesn't appear to be aimed at > folks who'd need the power of something like FarCry. It looks to be > squarely aimed at people who build a lot of fairly straightforward > data entry / data update apps, by trying to automate the tedium of > creating basic CRUD code and simple form layouts. Am I getting the > right impression now? This may sound like marketing drool, but it was actually our positioning statement: "Plum was designed for developers who want to rapidly prototype and build solid ColdFusion applications in minimum time." Sean, I'm sorry if I accused you of trying to talk Plum down yesterday. I was wrong. It really appears that you are only trying to learn more about Plum; it just sounded a bit confrontational. If I can answer any questions for you, or if you'd like to talk over the phone about it, please feel free to call me or David at 770-446-8866 any time. Thanks for your input, and I look forward to more from you. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187883 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
I'm bored of thisCF-Community anyone? -Original Message- From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 December 2004 14:58 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? Plum can be uninstalled through Add / Remove programs. Not sure what it leaves behind...Adam? -joe On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:26:58 -0500, Jerry Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What kind of install is Plum? Does the install leave you with a simple > exe or does it sink its hooks into the registery and other places? I'd > like to look at it, but I don't want to have a lot of material left > behind if I decide to uninstall. > > J > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187881 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Plum can be uninstalled through Add / Remove programs. Not sure what it leaves behind...Adam? -joe On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:26:58 -0500, Jerry Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What kind of install is Plum? Does the install leave you with a simple > exe or does it sink its hooks into the registery and other places? I'd > like to look at it, but I don't want to have a lot of material left > behind if I decide to uninstall. > > J > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187878 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
What kind of install is Plum? Does the install leave you with a simple exe or does it sink its hooks into the registery and other places? I'd like to look at it, but I don't want to have a lot of material left behind if I decide to uninstall. J ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187876 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:38:08 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When did I quote implementation times for a diagramming tool / > technique? Fine if the What Plum Can Do Page is unclear -- it's > unclear -- it gives the appearance that there is a visio-esque > diagramming IDE included (with pictures even). But don't blame the > viewer for jumping to an _obvious_ conclusion, revise the content so > the obvious conclusion is different. I'm with Isaac on this: the Plum web site talks - at some length - about the Plum Methodology being all about diagramming and shows what appear to be example diagrams. Even reading the tutorial in the support section of the site shows the same diagram. If you show stuff like this as part of your product description, people are bound to think the product actually does that: http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/PlumDetail.cfm?id=diagrammingss I've been reading through the tutorials and I can now see that there's a *lot* of manual editing of specific .cfm files involved. The website is very impressive and makes it sound like Plum does a bunch of stuff that it actually doesn't seem to do. It talks about an IDE and diagramming but really it doesn't do any of that. It generates CRUD code from a database. It has a custom tag based framework for master-detail CRUD form-heavy apps. It has a CMS (although it's not clear how that fits in with the generated CRUD code). The tutorials go into mind-numbing detail about some things I'd expect all ColdFusion programmers to know (the Application.cfm / OnRequestEnd.cfm stuff for example) but are generally very clear - clear about all the manual editing steps, for example. Adam, could you provide a clearer statement of your target audience? I've spent a couple of hours reading through everything now and I'm still not really clear who you're aiming Plum at. As far as I can tell, it isn't aimed at anyone using an existing framework or an existing code generator (like Joseph Flannigan's, which just creates CFCs you can use with any framework). It doesn't appear to be aimed at folks who'd need the power of something like FarCry. It looks to be squarely aimed at people who build a lot of fairly straightforward data entry / data update apps, by trying to automate the tedium of creating basic CRUD code and simple form layouts. Am I getting the right impression now? -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187859 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> -Original Message- > From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:21 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? > > I have a belly button Wow Rob - if you think THAT'S great, wait until you discover what's just south of that! You my never leave the house again! Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187854 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> -Original Message- > From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:10 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? > > > For the record I'm > > sure PLUM is good. I really never intended to offend you, I was just > > expressing an opinion. > > Then I'm good with ending this here. Jeeze - I'm not. I WANT SOME BLOOD! Adam - for what it's worth - Isaac often does the same thing to me (and, sometimes, he's even right). It can irk but having know him for several years now I honestly believe there's no malice in it. Honest. He's also tried to get me to try OnTap for years - and I never have. I'll probably not try Plum either. Because as much in awe as I am of the both of you (or anybody that can actually complete something of that scale) I myself am a lazy, lazy man. Yes, too lazy even to evaluate time savers. Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187852 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:21:24 -0800, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a belly button > > Interesting revellation Rob. Did you just discover this? or has it been so long since you looked down you had forgotten it was there? -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187853 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
I have a belly button -- ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~open source XML database~ http://ashpool.sourceforge.net ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187850 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> When did I quote implementation times for a diagramming tool / > technique? I was referring to the whole "This should only take a minute or two... this should only take a few moments..." bit. You have no earthly idea how long it would take to implement the details of those Plum features based on what you've seen so far. > For the record I'm > sure PLUM is good. I really never intended to offend you, I was just > expressing an opinion. Then I'm good with ending this here. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187849 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
>> Excuse me? That's described on the What Plum Can Do >> Page... to quote: > *snip!* > The IDE isn't a visual IDE, which Dreamweaver is. And the > diagramming > technique is just that -- a technique. You can implement > it with a #2 > pencil and an 11 x 17 piece of paper. From the Plum help: > --- > Diagramming Tools > We have all sorts of flowchart and diagramming tools here > at Productivity > Enhancement, but the best software tool for producing Plum > Diagrams by far > is Visio, using its "Cross-functional flowchart" > capability. The best tool > for producing Plum Diagrams overall, though, is a sheaf of > 11" x 17" sheets > of paper, a mechanical pencil, and an artists kneadable > eraser. Sorry to > disappoint the gearheads out there, but it's true. Why > 11" x 17"? Because > you write larger than you think, and a regular letter-size > page just doesn't > give you enough room. > --- > So, you're making judgments and quoting implementation > times... based on > browsing a spec sheet? When did I quote implementation times for a diagramming tool / technique? Fine if the What Plum Can Do Page is unclear -- it's unclear -- it gives the appearance that there is a visio-esque diagramming IDE included (with pictures even). But don't blame the viewer for jumping to an _obvious_ conclusion, revise the content so the obvious conclusion is different. I don't blame people when they say the onTap framework is daunting. I respond by offering help if people want it and I let my detractors have their opinion, misguided or otherwise. At least that's what I strive for. For the record I'm sure PLUM is good. I really never intended to offend you, I was just expressing an opinion. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187847 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> Excuse me? That's described on the What Plum Can Do Page... > to quote: *snip!* The IDE isn't a visual IDE, which Dreamweaver is. And the diagramming technique is just that -- a technique. You can implement it with a #2 pencil and an 11 x 17 piece of paper. From the Plum help: --- Diagramming Tools We have all sorts of flowchart and diagramming tools here at Productivity Enhancement, but the best software tool for producing Plum Diagrams by far is Visio, using its "Cross-functional flowchart" capability. The best tool for producing Plum Diagrams overall, though, is a sheaf of 11" x 17" sheets of paper, a mechanical pencil, and an artists kneadable eraser. Sorry to disappoint the gearheads out there, but it's true. Why 11" x 17"? Because you write larger than you think, and a regular letter-size page just doesn't give you enough room. --- So, you're making judgments and quoting implementation times... based on browsing a spec sheet? Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187841 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
>> -Original Message- >> From: Adam Churvis >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:11 PM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? >> >> > Point Plum to your database and generate >> > code (this would take a bit longer but >> > wouldn't be difficult by any stretch of >> > the imagination). >> >> *snip!* >> >> That list I just snipped was pretty long. >> Since it only takes moments, just do it! >> Until you do, you're all talk and no action. > I like Isaac. I like Adam. > But what I'd really like is a bare > knuckle drag-down between them! > No rounds, no rules, no mercy! > ... first rule of framework club: > you don't talk about framework club. I love that movie! :) s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187842 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> -Original Message- > From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:11 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO? > > > Point Plum to your database and generate code (this would take a bit > longer but wouldn't be difficult by any stretch of the imagination). > > *snip!* > > That list I just snipped was pretty long. Since it only takes moments, > just > do it! Until you do, you're all talk and no action. I like Isaac. I like Adam. But what I'd really like is a bare knuckle drag-down between them! No rounds, no rules, no mercy! ... first rule of framework club: you don't talk about framework club. Jim Davis ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187839 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> You haven't really looked into Plum at all > -- there *is* no visual IDE or diagramming tool! Excuse me? That's described on the What Plum Can Do Page... to quote: Point Plum to your database and generate code The Plum IDE is a standalone Windows desktop application that reads your database schema and creates an XML-based project file containing the specifications of each object in your database. Once Plum has these specs, it can generate all the source code necessary for searching, sorting, listing, adding, viewing, editing, and deleting records in your database. Source code is perfectly-formatted and based on simple custom tag calls, so it's simple to understand and modify. Plum does a pretty good job of guessing how you want your code to generate, but most likely you'll want to change a few things to better suit your needs. Just a few clicks is all it takes to completely redesign and regenerate your source code, and it's fast, too. Easy-to-understand business process diagramming technique A simple diagramming method plots process flows against roles and stages to give you a visual model of your applications workflow. Roles in these diagrams map to the roles used by ColdFusion for authorization, stages map to status values stored in the database records manipulated by processes on the diagram, and process flows map to application modules, so everything your diagram directly determines how your application will be built. See the whole forest, not just the trees Unlike wireframes, click-throughs, and HTML page prototypes that concentrate just on screens, the Plum Methodology creates a complete map of the entire workflow of each process flow your application supports. This process map shows you precisely how a user arrives at a task, which users can accomplish each task, and the various dependent outcomes of each task. And unlike complicated diagramming techniques like UML, Plum Diagramming is so simple and straightforward that both you and your clients will understand exactly what's going on. - so let me strip out what gives me the impression there's a visual IDE: - The Plum IDE is a standalone Windows desktop application ... Easy-to-understand ... diagramming technique ... A simple diagramming method ... Roles in these diagrams map to the roles ... manipulated by processes on the diagram, ... so everything your diagram directly determines how your application will be built. Unlike wireframes... And unlike complicated diagramming techniques like UML, Plum Diagramming is so simple and straightforward that both you and your clients will understand exactly what's going on. -- These descriptions even have PICTURES of diagrams! So what am I supposed to think? s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187838 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> Point Plum to your database and generate code (this would take a bit longer but wouldn't be difficult by any stretch of the imagination). *snip!* That list I just snipped was pretty long. Since it only takes moments, just do it! Until you do, you're all talk and no action. > Likely this has a lot to do with the fact that I'm not generally real impressed with visual IDE's and diagramming tools. I can use Visio - I know how, it's not hard - it may not write my code for me, but the framework writes more code for me all the time -- and I've generally not been impressed by any of the automated code generators I've seen. You haven't really looked into Plum at all -- there *is* no visual IDE or diagramming tool! You really should learn more about something before you go criticizing it. If you didn't even know this, how can you possibly know what it would take to implement any of Plum's features (all the details of them, not just some facsimile)? You can't. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187837 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
>> So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does most of what >> PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... > >onTap doesn't do most of what Plum does by a long shot, >and the things that onTap does that Plum doesn't do, >we don't want Plum to do. Internationalization? ... I didn't see it mentioned on the What Plum Can Do page. >> and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to me like many >> of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the onTap >> framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in a matter of >> minutes. > >Go ahead and try to add to onTap everything that Plum does now, >then tell me just how many "minutes" it took you. Really didn't mean disrespect (although I could see how it might have been taken that way)... I was just commenting on what I saw on the What Plum Can Do page -- and there are a number of items in the list to which my response was "feh -- moments". Specifically: Point Plum to your database and generate code (this would take a bit longer but wouldn't be difficult by any stretch of the imagination). Create master-detail forms that manipulate multiple related database tables (same as above - would take a little longer - not difficult) Work in parallel (not very different) QueryStubs automatically generate sample query objects One attribute triggers sample data Never throw away another prototype (not difficult) Ready to rock, right out of the box Learn and adapt Plum custom tags Intuitive naming convention Easy separation (these are very core to the onTap framework thinking) Choose your WYSIWYG editor (not difficult except that I've not been impressed with the WYSIWYG editors available - i'm not impressed with the way users use them either, so it's not a big seller for me) Multi-page articles (if I'd already built a CMS with the onTap framework would take moments -- I just don't have a whole CMS built on it currently) One custom tag call displays content (sounds to me like calling a fuseaction as a custom tag or similar -- the onTap framework does this -- it also has the ability to return the content as HTML library objects which can be further modified in powerful and discrete ways without the use of any complicated regular expressions). Client-side validation Server-side validation (does both in a consolidated manner) Filtered select menus (close - wouldn't be tough to add the remaining feature) Chooser controls (not difficult) Date time controls (not difficult) User and role management system Attach roles to users Profile self-management Switch to private registration Integrated login and registration (I may not be entirely clear from the description of this feature) Email passwords Keep me logged in (Members onTap and Roles onTap plugins do all these things -- I'm planning to consolidate these into a single plugin soon, once I've got more of the internationalization features in place.) Extends and simplifies CFLOGIN (not sure why I'd want to bother) Synchronized logins (not sure what this means) Module-, page-, and section-level security easily implemented with a single custom tag call (it's a function in Roles onTap) Auto-submit timed-out data (moments - I contemplated doing this and decided against - was an arbitrary decision - is this something most people want?) Automatic validation (server-side validation does have to be executed, but it's a single function call with one argument: the form - wouldn't be hard to automate this) Prevents hacking (as long as you use the framework's database management features - doesn't scrub the url, but could in moments) Validation tests (no graphical editor, but the feature set is very robust) A place for everything, and everything in its place (same) ColdFusion components do all the heavy lifting (nice if you feel like code reuse is impossible without OO but I don't find this necessary -- the onTap framework offers added-values features for CFC's like dynamic and multiple inheritance, plus it provides a mechanism for working around issues related to CFC discovery -- I still don't use them unless I feel like I _need_ inheritance and/or polymorphism). Pre-defined exceptions Error handlers Slipstream your own business rules into the framework Switch exception handling on and off (structures there - it hasn't been heavily developed) Switchable persistent scopes (not difficult) Consolidated cookies (i don't use a lot of cookies, so I'm not sure what the real advantage is) Module exit routine (don't understand the description) Sniff browsers only once (why sniff at all?) User-choosable layouts (moments) Intelligent stylesheets (use a dtd that forces IE into standards compliance mode and don't worry about your 0.01% of visitors using Konqueror to encourage them to get with the program) Separate layouts for consumers and admins (moments) Printable site pages (moments - and the description gives me the impression the framework tells yo
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
I haven't had a chance to play with PLUM yet, but I play to try it out soon. However, I did want to come out and thank Adam and David (and anyone else who helped) for what is clearly a huge amount of effort. It's easy for people to get worked up about the details of how it works, or what frameworks it does or doesn't support. But let's not lose sight of the fact that these two guys have put their money where their mouth is and released, for free, what looks to be a very interesting and useful new tool. As someone who has met both of them, I can attest to their genuine desire to help others and add to the community. PLUM might not be for everyone, but everyone should be grateful that generous people like them (and everyone else who contributes to the community through code, writing or whatever) are here. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187827 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
>Go ahead and try to add to onTap everything that Plum does now, then tell me >just how many "minutes" it took you. Used to be you had to say 'fusebox' to get a fistfight started. Now its just "framework". -- --Matt Robertson-- President, Janitor MSB Designs, Inc. mysecretbase.com ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187816 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Adam Churvis wrote: > Spike, > > Thanks for your input. I'd like to address your issues. > > >>There is quite a lot of configuration work up front to set up a project >> and ensure that Plum knows all about the ColdFusion, Web server and >>Database. > > > Any application will eventually need all this information. Plum just > collects it all up front. Agreed, This isn't an issue. It was an observation since a lot of people didn't seem to know what it does or how it does it. > > >>Once you've got your project set up Plum uses these to allow >>you to perform configuration tasks without leaving the IDE and to >>generate code for task like CRUD operations on a single table, and >>searching, again on a single table. > > > Plum search forms can search on parent tables, too. > ok, I must have missed something there. Is there a strict limit to which tables can or can not be searched, or can you select 3 or 4 tables and tell the search form to search all of them. I don't think there's a huge use case for that particular example btw, it's more curiosity about how you can use Plum to build searches and forms. > >>The major downfall I can see is that there doesn't appear to be *any* >>way to actually edit the text of a file directly. You have to use an >>external text editor of some kind to to that. > > > This was intended from the beginning. Plum is a tool to add to your > toolbox, not replace your toolbox. To try and recreate HomeSite inside Plum > would not have been realistic for us. > Yep, I can appreciate that, but I still find it a little odd that there's nothing in there at all. > >>Also, once you start modifying the generated code you can't easily merge >>your modified code with code that Plum generates in the future. You can >>either choose to overwrite an existing file or leave it alone. I guess >>that means that PLUM is designed primarily for generating stub code that >>you then modify and don't use Plum to manage in the future. > > > Once you've gone as far as you like in the Plum IDE for a page, you > right-click the page node and choose "Lock This Page", which prevents that > page from being overwritten by future generations. ok, that makes sense. > > Plum was never intended to be a round-tripping tool; it was intended to > generate all or most of the code you need for a page, then its job is done > and the rest (if anything) is up to the developer. > Thanks for clarifying that. > >>It's certainly a promising product and I can see why it would be useful >>to a lot of people, but there are a few areas where I think it's missing >>key features. Appologies to the developers if any of these are already >>in there. I looked but I couldn't find them. >> >>They are in no particular order: >> >>Integrated text based editor that supports the same sort of stuff CF >>developers have become used to - tag insight etc. >>Integrated SQL editor to support searching and other SQL operations on >>more than 1 table. >>Round-trip code management and merging. >>Customization of the CFML code generation to suit individual coding > > styles. > > We've never intended to include any of these features in Plum. That's not > the application space we're occupying. ok > > >>Support for frameworks other than the Plum framework. > > > The Plum IDE is tightly coupled to the Plum Framework, and wouldn't have any > utility with any other frameworks. The Plum IDE is not a traditional IDE, > but an IDE for Plum application development. > It sounds more like a project management and configuration tool than an IDE, but I've only looked at it briefly, so I really can't make any sort of solid assertions either way on that. It's just the feeling I got. > >>Support for a less page-centric application model. > > > Could you clarify this a bit? Yep, The in the app that got auto-generated when I created my project quite a lot of files were generated in the webroot. I tend to write apps that are structured more like a Mach-ii app. Quite a few CFC methods will be called on any given reqest and they will not necessarily be the same methods for every request. Some may require pre-processing to check for data validation; some may require a remote lookup of some kind; some may need to perform security checks of one kind or another; and some may need to do post-processing once data has been returned from a database. Each of those method calls is an integral part of the request for a given page, but they could each easily be added to any existing page. In other words, I tend to use an n-tier development approach and specify the functionality that should be called and in what order for any given page request. If I'm using Mach-ii that will be specified in the mach-ii.xml file. If I'm not, it will be specified somewhere in the controller layer (I tend to use an MVC approach whether I'm using mach-ii or not). I also tend to use quite a few "form generators" in some types of apps. Tha
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:56:26 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I noticed that you have not requested a Beta License Key to try Plum yet, > Sean. When you have a version that will install on non-Windows platforms, I'll look at it - I don't have a Windows machine to try it on. > I have a feeling that your main purpose, though, is to try to talk Plum down > in favor of Fusebox and/or Mach-ii, which everyone knows is your framework > of choice. No, I'm trying to understand exactly what components are in Plum and how tightly coupling they are to see whether there is any part that I can actually evaluate. Someone who has a Windows box has installed Plum and generated a sample app and shipped me the generated code (which I can't run because it's tightly coupled to MS SQL Server - but I can at least look at the code to get some idea of what Plum does). -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187805 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Hey all, I gave myself a quick tour of Plum earlier today and blogged it, with a quick look at features, architecture, etc. Full post at http://www.clearsoftware.net/client/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=D88E6D1E-E081-2BAC-698D354A075833D4 -joe -- For Tabs, Trees, and more, use the jComponents: http://clearsoftware.net/client/jComponents.cfm ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187818 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Spike, Thanks for your input. I'd like to address your issues. > There is quite a lot of configuration work up front to set up a project >and ensure that Plum knows all about the ColdFusion, Web server and > Database. Any application will eventually need all this information. Plum just collects it all up front. > Once you've got your project set up Plum uses these to allow > you to perform configuration tasks without leaving the IDE and to > generate code for task like CRUD operations on a single table, and > searching, again on a single table. Plum search forms can search on parent tables, too. > The major downfall I can see is that there doesn't appear to be *any* > way to actually edit the text of a file directly. You have to use an > external text editor of some kind to to that. This was intended from the beginning. Plum is a tool to add to your toolbox, not replace your toolbox. To try and recreate HomeSite inside Plum would not have been realistic for us. > Also, once you start modifying the generated code you can't easily merge > your modified code with code that Plum generates in the future. You can > either choose to overwrite an existing file or leave it alone. I guess > that means that PLUM is designed primarily for generating stub code that > you then modify and don't use Plum to manage in the future. Once you've gone as far as you like in the Plum IDE for a page, you right-click the page node and choose "Lock This Page", which prevents that page from being overwritten by future generations. Plum was never intended to be a round-tripping tool; it was intended to generate all or most of the code you need for a page, then its job is done and the rest (if anything) is up to the developer. > It's certainly a promising product and I can see why it would be useful > to a lot of people, but there are a few areas where I think it's missing > key features. Appologies to the developers if any of these are already > in there. I looked but I couldn't find them. > > They are in no particular order: > > Integrated text based editor that supports the same sort of stuff CF > developers have become used to - tag insight etc. > Integrated SQL editor to support searching and other SQL operations on > more than 1 table. > Round-trip code management and merging. > Customization of the CFML code generation to suit individual coding styles. We've never intended to include any of these features in Plum. That's not the application space we're occupying. > Support for frameworks other than the Plum framework. The Plum IDE is tightly coupled to the Plum Framework, and wouldn't have any utility with any other frameworks. The Plum IDE is not a traditional IDE, but an IDE for Plum application development. > Support for a less page-centric application model. Could you clarify this a bit? Spike, I really appreciate your feedback, and I hope you continue to look into Plum and let us know what you like and what you don't like. If you go through the tutorials provided with the product, they will show you quite a lot of what Plum can do to really improve your daily development effort. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187817 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does most of what > PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... onTap doesn't do most of what Plum does by a long shot, and the things that onTap does that Plum doesn't do, we don't want Plum to do. > and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to me like many > of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the onTap > framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in a matter of > minutes. Go ahead and try to add to onTap everything that Plum does now, then tell me just how many "minutes" it took you. > I'll admit I haven't looked at PLUM very deeply, I've just > skimmed the feature list, etc. but it wasn't a jaw-dropper for me. Are you saying that this: http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm wasn't a jaw dropper? Exactly what does it take to drop your jaw? Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187813 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Thank you Spike! This one post has given me more insight into Plum than anything posted so far and more than anything on the website. It will also give me a context for the generated code that someone was kind enough to send me as an example... On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:10:45 -0800, Spike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've downloaded and installed Plum and I'm still not really sure what > type of audience it is aimed at. > > There is quite a lot of configuration work up front to set up a project >and ensure that Plum knows all about the ColdFusion, Web server and > Database. Once you've got your project set up Plum uses these to allow > you to perform configuration tasks without leaving the IDE and to > generate code for task like CRUD operations on a single table, and > searching, again on a single table. > > Once you've got a site created you can manage configuration and perform > some auto-generation of code for specific page types such as a search > page where you specify a table to search and which form controls, if > any, should be generated for each column in that database table. > > There's also a stored procedure generator that will generate stored > procedures to do CRUD operations on a specific table and a component > generator that will generate a component that calls your stored procedures. > > The major downfall I can see is that there doesn't appear to be *any* > way to actually edit the text of a file directly. You have to use an > external text editor of some kind to to that. > > Also, once you start modifying the generated code you can't easily merge > your modified code with code that Plum generates in the future. You can > either choose to overwrite an existing file or leave it alone. I guess > that means that PLUM is designed primarily for generating stub code that > you then modify and don't use Plum to manage in the future. > > It's certainly a promising product and I can see why it would be useful > to a lot of people, but there are a few areas where I think it's missing > key features. Appologies to the developers if any of these are already > in there. I looked but I couldn't find them. > > They are in no particular order: > > Integrated text based editor that supports the same sort of stuff CF > developers have become used to - tag insight etc. > Integrated SQL editor to support searching and other SQL operations on > more than 1 table. > Round-trip code management and merging. > Customization of the CFML code generation to suit individual coding styles. > Support for frameworks other than the Plum framework. > Support for a less page-centric application model. > > Spike ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187810 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
So is the onTap framework (free that is) -- which does most of what PLUM does and some things PLUM doesn't do... it doesn't have an IDE... and in looking at the feature list for PLUM it seemed to me like many of features mentioned that aren't currently core in the onTap framework could be implemented in the onTap framework in a matter of minutes. I'll admit I haven't looked at PLUM very deeply, I've just skimmed the feature list, etc. but it wasn't a jaw-dropper for me. > ah, kewl. Hmmm, maybe a new acronym is in order then? :) > PLUM is on > my list of things to get to after the new year. > Yeah, my jaw was ajar when I saw 'free'. > Doug > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:27:47 -0500, Adam Churvis > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time >> > to do the beta >> > thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and >> > team yesterday >> > during a short chat about using code gen tools. It >> > seems to me that >> > PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the >> > Interactonline >> > DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to >> > use a codegen >> > tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this >> > sense the term IDE >> > is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen >> > tool , you need >> > to use some sort of framework to abstract the process >> > so to speak. >> > >> > Is this far off Adam? >> >> Douglas, >> >> I can see how Plum might look like that, but it actually >> does much more. >> >> Plum isn't just a code gen tool; in fact, some developers >> may choose to not >> use the code generation capabilities at all (other than >> installing the Plum >> Framework for a project). Others may choose not to use >> the Plum Methodology >> for designing and implementing their project. Some >> choose to use all three >> in varying amounts -- it's entirely up to the developer. >> >> Plum goes *wy* beyond those DW extensions, in that it >> has a >> comprehensive framework of services and reusable code >> libraries that do just >> about everything a website generally needs, including a >> complete CMS >> (Content Management System), automated Verity management, >> unit test >> generators, stored procedure generators, component >> generators, and *tons* >> more -- that's why I posted this link, which everyone >> *really should look >> at* from top to bottom, even though it's very long: >> >> http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo >> .cfm >> >> Nothing like Plum has ever been built before, which adds >> to some of the >> confusion surrounding the product. >> >> The fact that it's free astonishes a lot of people, too. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Adam Phillip Churvis >> Member of Team Macromedia >> http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com >> >> Download Plum and other cool development tools, >> and get advanced intensive Master-level training: >> >> * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers >> * ColdFusion MX Master Class >> * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 >> >> > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187808 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
the troubleshooter on the site aint bad either. Answered MY question anyway. Dana On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:29:49 -0500, Douglas Knudsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ah, kewl. Hmmm, maybe a new acronym is in order then? :) PLUM is on > my list of things to get to after the new year. > > Yeah, my jaw was ajar when I saw 'free'. > > Doug > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:27:47 -0500, Adam Churvis > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time to do the beta > > > thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and team yesterday > > > during a short chat about using code gen tools. It seems to me that > > > PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the Interactonline > > > DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to use a codegen > > > tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this sense the term IDE > > > is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen tool , you need > > > to use some sort of framework to abstract the process so to speak. > > > > > > Is this far off Adam? > > > > Douglas, > > > > I can see how Plum might look like that, but it actually does much more. > > > > Plum isn't just a code gen tool; in fact, some developers may choose to not > > use the code generation capabilities at all (other than installing the Plum > > Framework for a project). Others may choose not to use the Plum Methodology > > for designing and implementing their project. Some choose to use all three > > in varying amounts -- it's entirely up to the developer. > > > > Plum goes *wy* beyond those DW extensions, in that it has a > > comprehensive framework of services and reusable code libraries that do just > > about everything a website generally needs, including a complete CMS > > (Content Management System), automated Verity management, unit test > > generators, stored procedure generators, component generators, and *tons* > > more -- that's why I posted this link, which everyone *really should look > > at* from top to bottom, even though it's very long: > > > > http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm > > > > Nothing like Plum has ever been built before, which adds to some of the > > confusion surrounding the product. > > > > The fact that it's free astonishes a lot of people, too. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Adam Phillip Churvis > > Member of Team Macromedia > > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > > > Download Plum and other cool development tools, > > and get advanced intensive Master-level training: > > > > * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers > > * ColdFusion MX Master Class > > * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 > > > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187806 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
I've downloaded and installed Plum and I'm still not really sure what type of audience it is aimed at. There is quite a lot of configuration work up front to set up a project and ensure that Plum knows all about the ColdFusion, Web server and Database. Once you've got your project set up Plum uses these to allow you to perform configuration tasks without leaving the IDE and to generate code for task like CRUD operations on a single table, and searching, again on a single table. Once you've got a site created you can manage configuration and perform some auto-generation of code for specific page types such as a search page where you specify a table to search and which form controls, if any, should be generated for each column in that database table. There's also a stored procedure generator that will generate stored procedures to do CRUD operations on a specific table and a component generator that will generate a component that calls your stored procedures. The major downfall I can see is that there doesn't appear to be *any* way to actually edit the text of a file directly. You have to use an external text editor of some kind to to that. Also, once you start modifying the generated code you can't easily merge your modified code with code that Plum generates in the future. You can either choose to overwrite an existing file or leave it alone. I guess that means that PLUM is designed primarily for generating stub code that you then modify and don't use Plum to manage in the future. It's certainly a promising product and I can see why it would be useful to a lot of people, but there are a few areas where I think it's missing key features. Appologies to the developers if any of these are already in there. I looked but I couldn't find them. They are in no particular order: Integrated text based editor that supports the same sort of stuff CF developers have become used to - tag insight etc. Integrated SQL editor to support searching and other SQL operations on more than 1 table. Round-trip code management and merging. Customization of the CFML code generation to suit individual coding styles. Support for frameworks other than the Plum framework. Support for a less page-centric application model. Spike Adam Churvis wrote: >>I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time to do the beta >>thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and team yesterday >>during a short chat about using code gen tools. It seems to me that >>PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the Interactonline >>DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to use a codegen >>tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this sense the term IDE >>is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen tool , you need >>to use some sort of framework to abstract the process so to speak. >> >>Is this far off Adam? > > > Douglas, > > I can see how Plum might look like that, but it actually does much more. > > Plum isn't just a code gen tool; in fact, some developers may choose to not > use the code generation capabilities at all (other than installing the Plum > Framework for a project). Others may choose not to use the Plum Methodology > for designing and implementing their project. Some choose to use all three > in varying amounts -- it's entirely up to the developer. > > Plum goes *wy* beyond those DW extensions, in that it has a > comprehensive framework of services and reusable code libraries that do just > about everything a website generally needs, including a complete CMS > (Content Management System), automated Verity management, unit test > generators, stored procedure generators, component generators, and *tons* > more -- that's why I posted this link, which everyone *really should look > at* from top to bottom, even though it's very long: > > http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm > > Nothing like Plum has ever been built before, which adds to some of the > confusion surrounding the product. > > The fact that it's free astonishes a lot of people, too. > > Respectfully, > > Adam Phillip Churvis > Member of Team Macromedia > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > Download Plum and other cool development tools, > and get advanced intensive Master-level training: > > * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers > * ColdFusion MX Master Class > * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187804 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
ah, kewl. Hmmm, maybe a new acronym is in order then? :) PLUM is on my list of things to get to after the new year. Yeah, my jaw was ajar when I saw 'free'. Doug On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:27:47 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time to do the beta > > thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and team yesterday > > during a short chat about using code gen tools. It seems to me that > > PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the Interactonline > > DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to use a codegen > > tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this sense the term IDE > > is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen tool , you need > > to use some sort of framework to abstract the process so to speak. > > > > Is this far off Adam? > > Douglas, > > I can see how Plum might look like that, but it actually does much more. > > Plum isn't just a code gen tool; in fact, some developers may choose to not > use the code generation capabilities at all (other than installing the Plum > Framework for a project). Others may choose not to use the Plum Methodology > for designing and implementing their project. Some choose to use all three > in varying amounts -- it's entirely up to the developer. > > Plum goes *wy* beyond those DW extensions, in that it has a > comprehensive framework of services and reusable code libraries that do just > about everything a website generally needs, including a complete CMS > (Content Management System), automated Verity management, unit test > generators, stored procedure generators, component generators, and *tons* > more -- that's why I posted this link, which everyone *really should look > at* from top to bottom, even though it's very long: > > http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm > > Nothing like Plum has ever been built before, which adds to some of the > confusion surrounding the product. > > The fact that it's free astonishes a lot of people, too. > > Respectfully, > > Adam Phillip Churvis > Member of Team Macromedia > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > Download Plum and other cool development tools, > and get advanced intensive Master-level training: > > * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers > * ColdFusion MX Master Class > * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187797 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time to do the beta > thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and team yesterday > during a short chat about using code gen tools. It seems to me that > PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the Interactonline > DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to use a codegen > tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this sense the term IDE > is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen tool , you need > to use some sort of framework to abstract the process so to speak. > > Is this far off Adam? Douglas, I can see how Plum might look like that, but it actually does much more. Plum isn't just a code gen tool; in fact, some developers may choose to not use the code generation capabilities at all (other than installing the Plum Framework for a project). Others may choose not to use the Plum Methodology for designing and implementing their project. Some choose to use all three in varying amounts -- it's entirely up to the developer. Plum goes *wy* beyond those DW extensions, in that it has a comprehensive framework of services and reusable code libraries that do just about everything a website generally needs, including a complete CMS (Content Management System), automated Verity management, unit test generators, stored procedure generators, component generators, and *tons* more -- that's why I posted this link, which everyone *really should look at* from top to bottom, even though it's very long: http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm Nothing like Plum has ever been built before, which adds to some of the confusion surrounding the product. The fact that it's free astonishes a lot of people, too. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187792 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
maybe we need to get mike D to start a CF-Argument list, eh? j/k I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time to do the beta thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and team yesterday during a short chat about using code gen tools. It seems to me that PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the Interactonline DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to use a codegen tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this sense the term IDE is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen tool , you need to use some sort of framework to abstract the process so to speak. Is this far off Adam? Doug On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:56:26 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about > > the Plum framework? Can it be used separately? > > It's not that the Plum IDE *can't* support those other frameworks, Sean; the > Plum IDE was designed to be intimately integrated with the Plum Framework > only. Other frameworks have nothing at all to do with Plum. > > > > The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE > > > > But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on > > non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework > > available separately so non-Windows users can look at it? > > If Mono will support the Plum IDE on non-Windows OSes, then yes. Otherwise, > no. > > I noticed that you have not requested a Beta License Key to try Plum yet, > Sean. Perhaps your questions would be more on target if you understood the > focus of the Plum IDE, and that it isn't a traditional IDE like HomeSite, > Dreamweaver, etc. > > I have a feeling that your main purpose, though, is to try to talk Plum down > in favor of Fusebox and/or Mach-ii, which everyone knows is your framework > of choice. > > Respectfully, > > Adam Phillip Churvis > Member of Team Macromedia > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > Download Plum and other cool development tools, > and get advanced intensive Master-level training: > > * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers > * ColdFusion MX Master Class > * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187789 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about > the Plum framework? Can it be used separately? It's not that the Plum IDE *can't* support those other frameworks, Sean; the Plum IDE was designed to be intimately integrated with the Plum Framework only. Other frameworks have nothing at all to do with Plum. > > The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE > > But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on > non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework > available separately so non-Windows users can look at it? If Mono will support the Plum IDE on non-Windows OSes, then yes. Otherwise, no. I noticed that you have not requested a Beta License Key to try Plum yet, Sean. Perhaps your questions would be more on target if you understood the focus of the Plum IDE, and that it isn't a traditional IDE like HomeSite, Dreamweaver, etc. I have a feeling that your main purpose, though, is to try to talk Plum down in favor of Fusebox and/or Mach-ii, which everyone knows is your framework of choice. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187783 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:42:19 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It sounds like you're trying to make the fact that we have a new framework > for ColdFusion developers sound like a negative thing. Not at all, just trying to get a clear picture in my head about Plum since I can't test it. > We're not competing, in that we're not trying to dissuade people from using > Fusebox, Mach-ii, onTap, or anything else. Plum is simply another choice, > and we think it's a choice that might appeal to people who don't want to use > one of the frameworks you mentioned. OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about the Plum framework? Can it be used separately? > The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework available separately so non-Windows users can look at it? -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187780 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Fair enough, I prefer to have shorter emails with a link if I am interested in checking it out, I go there. I rarely click on any link unless it is from a trusted list such as this and the subject interests me. Dan On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:44:12 +1100, Mike Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dan, I get abour 800 emails a day. Probably 2/3 of them have links > in them. I just dont click on links in emails unless there is a > reason. Forgetting the spam, if I went and looked at all those sites, > I would never get any work done. I'm not unique here. Most of us > have more email in a day than we can deal with and still get our work > done. > > I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was > a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've > seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt > about anything that concerned me, I never read them. > > I'm not criticising anyone in particular, and I'm not criticising the > Plum team. > > I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and > used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if > they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know > what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice > it. > > It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets > written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing > and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their > interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their > potential users to see the benefits. > > > Cheers > Mike Kear > Windsor, NSW, Australia > AFP Webworks > http://afpwebworks.com > .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:07:41 -0500, Dan O'Keefe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never > > >saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before > > >I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my > > >better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say > > >what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy > > >my time. > > > > Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a > > tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going > > to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what > > it does? > > > > To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to > > products and knowledge which help me do my job. > > > > I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email > > than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does. > > > > Dan > > > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187754 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> So in addition to being a Windows-only IDE, it's also a competing > framework to Fusebox, Mach II, onTap and so on? > > Is the Plum framework usable separately? Is it documented separately? It sounds like you're trying to make the fact that we have a new framework for ColdFusion developers sound like a negative thing. We're not competing, in that we're not trying to dissuade people from using Fusebox, Mach-ii, onTap, or anything else. Plum is simply another choice, and we think it's a choice that might appeal to people who don't want to use one of the frameworks you mentioned. All Plum documentation is contained in a single integrated .chm (compiled help) file, but the Plum IDE, the Plum Framework, and the Plum Methodology are all documented separately. The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE, and you can integrate as much or as little of the Plum Framework with code generated by the Plum IDE (or handcrafted code) as you like. It's entirely up to the developer. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187727 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:20:28 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Plum Framework is intended to become a standard framework for ColdFusion > development. It's a rich framework that contains many useful services and > reusable code libraries. So in addition to being a Windows-only IDE, it's also a competing framework to Fusebox, Mach II, onTap and so on? Is the Plum framework usable separately? Is it documented separately? -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187695 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> To be honest, I've visited the Plum site and I still don't really > understand what it actually does. It doesn't sound like it supports > any of the standard frameworks and it doesn't work on Mac or Linux it > seems. The Plum Framework is intended to become a standard framework for ColdFusion development. It's a rich framework that contains many useful services and reusable code libraries. The Plum IDE is built on the .NET Framework, so it runs on Windows OSes only right now, but the generated code will run on any platform. We'll soon see how the Plum IDE runs on Mono, but I'm not counting on anything. > The closest thing that comes to mind is Synthis Adalon - but when I > asked on one of the lists whether it is meant to be a competitor to > Adalon, no one responded. As best as I can tell, Adalon generates only the shells into which you have to handcraft all your own code, but it's still one hell of a cool product. It also generates documentation and other useful stuff. Everyone should check out Adalon to see if it fits your bill. I hear the guys who run the company are very helpful, too. I've met them a couple of times and they were very knowledgeable. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187680 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:44:12 +1100, Mike Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was > a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've > seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt > about anything that concerned me, I never read them. To be honest, I've visited the Plum site and I still don't really understand what it actually does. It doesn't sound like it supports any of the standard frameworks and it doesn't work on Mac or Linux it seems. The closest thing that comes to mind is Synthis Adalon - but when I asked on one of the lists whether it is meant to be a competitor to Adalon, no one responded. > I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and > used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if > they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know > what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice > it. Well, the original email I saw about it was posted by Peter Tilbrook on cfaussie and it absolutely did *not* say what the product was. When I saw a post from Adam directly, it gave some vague idea about the product. > It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets > written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing > and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their > interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their > potential users to see the benefits. I agree and whilst I teased someone on cfaussie for being "too lazy" to click the link to go find out about it (I was joking and the humor was really aimed at Peter T for his information-free post about Plum), I would like to encourage authors to provide more information when they are promoting something especially including information about which platforms products run on and what databases they support. I get *very* frustrated if I have to go to a site and navigate through to the download - and sometimes as far as actually installing a trial version! - only to find that the product is platform-specific! -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187672 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
in the case of plum, i think mike just missed it a few times but its also still in beta and knowing how good of a job adam & david do, im sure they will be making u fully aware upon public release (which is very very soon) plum makes that .net junk program will brought up look like -- Original Message -- From: "Ken Ketsdever" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:56:19 -0800 >Another thought is hey I might not know what it is or does. If that is the >case I probably am not the person responsible for those funcitons. However, >if the marketing guys did a little better job telling me what it is or does I >would be more likely to forward it to the proper personal. Right now I jsut >delete what I don't understand. But if I know it is a recruitment tool, >content management system, or hardware dumagungy, etc.. then I forward it to >the people who work in those areas. Often times a simple explanation such as >"Our CMS (content management system) will > >Last time I ERPed was after a party in college. > > >"It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets >written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing >and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their >interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their >potential users to see the benefits. " > >Confidentiality Notice: This message including any >attachments is for the sole use of the intended >recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >distribution is prohibited. If you are not the >intended recipient, please contact the sender and >delete any copies of this message. > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187645 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Another thought is hey I might not know what it is or does. If that is the case I probably am not the person responsible for those funcitons. However, if the marketing guys did a little better job telling me what it is or does I would be more likely to forward it to the proper personal. Right now I jsut delete what I don't understand. But if I know it is a recruitment tool, content management system, or hardware dumagungy, etc.. then I forward it to the people who work in those areas. Often times a simple explanation such as "Our CMS (content management system) will Last time I ERPed was after a party in college. "It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their potential users to see the benefits. " Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187641 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Dan, I get abour 800 emails a day. Probably 2/3 of them have links in them. I just dont click on links in emails unless there is a reason. Forgetting the spam, if I went and looked at all those sites, I would never get any work done. I'm not unique here. Most of us have more email in a day than we can deal with and still get our work done. I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt about anything that concerned me, I never read them. I'm not criticising anyone in particular, and I'm not criticising the Plum team. I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice it. It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their potential users to see the benefits. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:07:41 -0500, Dan O'Keefe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never > >saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before > >I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my > >better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say > >what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy > >my time. > > Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a > tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going > to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what > it does? > > To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to > products and knowledge which help me do my job. > > I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email > than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does. > > Dan > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - RUWebby http://www.ruwebby.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187636 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
>Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never >saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before >I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my >better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say >what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy >my time. Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what it does? To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to products and knowledge which help me do my job. I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does. Dan ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187621 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Adam, Few years back some of my business friends started asking me whether they should go "urp" or not. Didn't have the faintest idea what they were talking about. Then I was watching CNN one nigt and there was some software vendor loudly proclaiming that if you didn't get an ERP system this instant you were a dunderhead. Nowhere in the ad did they explain what ERP was at all. Guess they assumed their target customers knew, but I will bet that quite a few did not. I've seen ads in the trade magazines myself and wondered what in the heck the company was selling. I do think people get too close to what they're doing and just expect everyone to understand. Rick Mason On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:56:00 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I > > think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget > > that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. > > Yeah, you're right, Mike. > > I especially liked your description of the CRM bit. I almost think vendors > design it that way so that people will follow the "mystique" of a thing like > lemmings over a cliff. Everyone rushes to it because everyone else is > rushing to it, but no one really knows what it is or why they're so > desperate to have it. > > > The other thing that astonishes me is the *price* of things like CRM, ERP, > etc. Oracle just bought PeopleSoft for 10.3 Billion dollars because > PeopleSoft generates a heavy stream of cash from a product that costs a > bloody fortune to acquire, customize, maintain, and support its users. They > sell the dream of a well-oiled ERP system, they typically deliver > substantially less, and people just keep on paying massive fees year after > year for it, as if there is no alternative. > > > Thanks for your feedback, Mike. > > Respectfully, > > Adam Phillip Churvis > Member of Team Macromedia > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > Download Plum and other cool development tools, > and get advanced intensive Master-level training: > > * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers > * ColdFusion MX Master Class > * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187582 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Adam, that looks pretty good to me. If i'd seen it (and i know this will shock some listers, but I dont get time to read every post) I'd have thought that's enough to warrant my investing some time in finding out more. And as you say, none of us wants to turn this list into an advertising/spamming list. And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. And even after it's been announced, there will still be lots of people who haven't seen the announcement. (That's why advertisements appear repeatedly on radio and TV). Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:08:39 -0500, Adam Churvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never > > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before > > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my > > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say > > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy > > my time. > > Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list: > > --- > Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its > new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive > application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum > can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large > relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business > logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and > straightforward. > --- > > I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough > to be appropriate for this list. > > I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most > likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if > you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you > would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above. > > Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list, > and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site > instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool. > > Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike. > > Respectfully, > > Adam Phillip Churvis > Member of Team Macromedia > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187546 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy > my time. Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list: --- Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and straightforward. --- I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough to be appropriate for this list. I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above. Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list, and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool. Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187540 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Gmail keeps the thread emails forever so when you click on the title of a list email you see the whole thread, which is really awesome to get some context. Want a gmail account? Let me know if you want one I have lots just sitting here. On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:41:30 +1100, Mike Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Adam, that looks pretty good to me. If i'd seen it (and i know this > will shock some listers, but I dont get time to read every post) I'd > have thought that's enough to warrant my investing some time in > finding out more. > > And as you say, none of us wants to turn this list into an > advertising/spamming list. > > And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I > think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget > that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. And even > after it's been announced, there will still be lots of people who > haven't seen the announcement. (That's why advertisements appear > repeatedly on radio and TV). > > > Cheers > Mike Kear > Windsor, NSW, Australia > AFP Webworks > http://afpwebworks.com > .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year > > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:08:39 -0500, Adam Churvis > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never > > > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before > > > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my > > > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say > > > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy > > > my time. > > > > Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list: > > > > --- > > Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its > > new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive > > application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum > > can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large > > relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business > > logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and > > straightforward. > > --- > > > > I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough > > to be appropriate for this list. > > > > I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most > > likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if > > you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you > > would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above. > > > > Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list, > > and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site > > instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool. > > > > Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Adam Phillip Churvis > > Member of Team Macromedia > > http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com > > > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187548 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
> And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I > think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget > that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. Yeah, you're right, Mike. I especially liked your description of the CRM bit. I almost think vendors design it that way so that people will follow the "mystique" of a thing like lemmings over a cliff. Everyone rushes to it because everyone else is rushing to it, but no one really knows what it is or why they're so desperate to have it. The other thing that astonishes me is the *price* of things like CRM, ERP, etc. Oracle just bought PeopleSoft for 10.3 Billion dollars because PeopleSoft generates a heavy stream of cash from a product that costs a bloody fortune to acquire, customize, maintain, and support its users. They sell the dream of a well-oiled ERP system, they typically deliver substantially less, and people just keep on paying massive fees year after year for it, as if there is no alternative. Thanks for your feedback, Mike. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Member of Team Macromedia http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com Download Plum and other cool development tools, and get advanced intensive Master-level training: * C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers * ColdFusion MX Master Class * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187547 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Sorry to say, but what a stupid rant.. right now you are saying actually all the companies making money with Microsoft products or adapting their business strategy based on a Microsoft roadmap are plain silly. There hasn't been a single product communicated by Microsoft for which it was unclear what it did. And If you do not understand a product in the end, maybe it is time to let your fingers do some work and doing some research or ask people polite what the product does and if they want to help you. If you asked me, I helped you. It is so easy pointing fingers despite you're little disclaimer :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187527 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Hello Micha, I guess you didnt read what I wrote at all. On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:59:59 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry to say, but what a stupid rant.. right now you are saying actually > all the companies making money with Microsoft products or adapting their > business strategy based on a Microsoft roadmap are plain silly. There > hasn't been a single product communicated by Microsoft for which it was > unclear what it did. > I didnt say that at all. If people have gone to the trouble to spend time studying someone's software, that's their choice. I'm saying it costs time and money to investigate products, and if someone wants me to try their product, they had better at least tell me what it's going to do for me, or I wont bother. Here's another example (again, one of a great many, but which amuses me whenever I think of it) .. the first time I heard the term CRM was at a Microsoft seminar. It was a presentation for 45 minutes about a new CRM product, and I had never heard that term. I sat there for 10 minutes, thinking I must be the only one in the audience who didnt know what the presentation was about. I tried to work out from the presentation what this CRM thing did, and no clue came. There were screen shots of how easy it was to set up, and now enterprise-wide it was, and how low-cost it was to support, but nothing about what it did.Eventually I decided to risk looking like a fool and asked the guy next t me what CRM meant. He didnt know either. Nor, as it turned out did the guy on the other side, or on either side of them, or in the rows in front or behind.At the end of the 45 minute presentation the guy asked for questions and someone finally had the courage to ask what CRM was. he went red and said you dont know? Everyone laughed because only about half the audience knew what the term CRM meant. And therefore his presentation was pretty well wasted because so few people knew what the product was for.We were supposed to be looking for new products, deciding whether to change our business strategy, and instead we were thinking "This doesn't have any applicatoin to my customers. I think. Well maybe it does. Oh well." All it would have taken to make his presentation more powerful, and useful for all of us, would have been for him to put a few words at the top of his presentation using the words Customer Relationship Management and we'd have been paying attention to his presentation. > And If you do not understand a product in the end, maybe it is time to > let your fingers do some work and doing some research or ask people > polite what the product does and if they want to help you. If you asked > me, I helped you. It is so easy pointing fingers despite you're little > disclaimer :) > > Micha Schopman > Project Manager > The point is, Micha, its quite common for someone to say (and i've seen it right here on this list) "the new version of is out and on our web site! It's terrific- lots of new features, download it and try it out. Let us know if you need any help" I'm not going to bother on the basis of that. It's going to take me time to download, then install it, read the 'readme' file (which in these cases is also pretty short on descriptions of what it does) then run the program, poke around it a bit, debug the install, all before i even discover if it's something I might use. Then if it's not something I'd use, i have to remove it again. Often they de-install cleanly but not always.That frequently comes to several hours. You might have time to tinker around with stuff on the off-chance it might be useful for you, in which case terrific. Go for it. But I either charge my time out by the hour, in which case that represents lost income, or I do this in my own time, which is precious and rare. I want a reason to spend it on that, rather than playing music, building models, watching TV or being with my family. And all it'd take is a simple statement about what the damn product does. If you want LOTS of people do use your product, then its up to you to tell them what the benefits are. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - New Atlanta http://www.newatlanta.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187537 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
It's always amazing to me to see how much common courtesy gets violently flung out the window in an online environment. Instead of saying "I disagree with that comment, here's why..." You say, "what a stupid rant". Clearly, if someone disagrees with anything that you believe, they must be "stupid". Indeed, if someone says anything at all, and you don't like the way it sounds, then quite naturally they're "stupid". [end sarcasm] Even if you disagree with someone who posts to this list, is it so difficult to have a little common courtesy and mutual respect? -JM Micha Schopman wrote: >Sorry to say, but what a stupid rant.. right now you are saying actually >all the companies making money with Microsoft products or adapting their >business strategy based on a Microsoft roadmap are plain silly. There >hasn't been a single product communicated by Microsoft for which it was >unclear what it did. > >And If you do not understand a product in the end, maybe it is time to >let your fingers do some work and doing some research or ask people >polite what the product does and if they want to help you. If you asked >me, I helped you. It is so easy pointing fingers despite you're little >disclaimer :) > > >Micha Schopman >Project Manager > >Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort >Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 >KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 > > > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Silver Sponsor - CFDynamics http://www.cfdynamics.com Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187535 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
Hear hear! But... in this kind of forum.. (or maybe I am getting it mixed up with the CMS one) I wouldnt like everyone telling me about in great detail unless I asked specificlly. There are a number of commercial and non comercial products being developed by people in this list and it would just get a bit booged down. P.S. I contribute to CFEclipse which is a plugin for Eclipse which is a replacement for Dreamweaver aimed at developers. It has nice features and a responsive team (is that a good plug?) MD On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:22 +1100, Mike Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm not wanting to point the finger at anyone in particular, but I'm > always astonished at how many people talk about new software products, > without ever saying what it actually DOES! > > For example (and its only one example of a great many!), FLEX was out > for months and months before I could persuade anyone to tell me what > it was for. Several times I even asked point blank, "What does it > do?", and got a blank look as though I was some kind of crackpot. > The quizzical looks said "are you serious? just download it and find > out for yourself you lazy bugger!" > > Microsoft does it a lot too. We'll get announcement from them that > MSNewWidget2 is out, but not actually saying what it does. Or else > giving motherhood statements like "enables users to access their > information easily and rapidly" They get so close to something while > it's being developed, I think they forget that the rest of us have > been busy with our own lives and don't know . > > It's as though simply because it's been released (or more latterly > been made availble on beta) I ought to spend a few hours downloading > and configuring something, in order to find out if I might possibly > use it. > > NO! > > It's not MY responsibility to go to all the trouble to find out what > it does, if you have a new product, it's YOUR responsibility to TELL > ME what it does, and convince me it's worth my while to go to all the > trouble to get the product and put it on my system. These days to > look at a software package can be a commitment of several hours. On > chargeable time, that's several hundred bucks. On my own spare time, > it's worth ten times that because I have precious little of it. > > Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy > my time. > > Look this sounds like a rant, and I suppose it is. But I spent enough > time in sales to know that no one has any obligation to look at your > product. IF you've gone to all the trouble to make it, it's up to YOU > to tell potential customer/users why they should bother. > > Just because it's there and available, is insufficient reason for me > to invest the time and money to go get it, on the off-chance it might > be useful for me. > [/RANT MODE OFF] > > There. I feel much better now. > > -- > Cheers > Mike Kear > Windsor, NSW, Australia > AFP Webworks > http://afpwebworks.com > .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year > > ~| Special thanks to the CF Community Suite Gold Sponsor - CFHosting.net http://www.cfhosting.net Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:187524 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
