Re: Fusebox pros and cons
I believe that an important key to controlling scope creep is persistent documentation. I have found that if I can point at a piece of paper and just remind the customer that s/he said (or did not say) they needed a particular feature, then the may reconsider their new request. Granted that this doesn't always work, and must be done in a tasteful and tactful way to work, it seems to help more often than not. Also, it is helpful to define the contract into distinct segments. I used to use 15%, 35%, 75%, 100%, FINAL. 15% is simply the initial mockup. Customer reviews this for scope adherence and also might ask for scope changes, which are then negotiated before proceeding. 35% is the revised mockup, where the customer comments have been incorporated (or evaluated to 'not feasible'). Customer reviews this for revised scope adherence. Can't add new scope items, just point out deficiencies and defects. Any scope added after this point goes into specifications for the next revision (not in contract) of the application. 75% is the revised mockup + any corrected customer comments. This is more or less just a progress review. Pick up the minor interaface bugs (code bugs should never be seen by the customer) 100% means a complete application, performing fully to the 35% scope and specifications and should be ready for immediate release to public. Customer reviews this one carefully, making sure that everything works as scoped out. This should be just a go/no-go. FINAL is the packaged / installed application. - Original Message - From: "Ian Lurie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:03 AM Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > Yup. That works. But it still ticks off the clients. > > If everyone was reasonable we wouldn't need governments, I guess... > > -Original Message- > From: Christopher Olive [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:02 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > that's the point of having an appendix b in your contract, with this sort of > thing specified. > > the clause in the contract referencing said appendix shoul dhave something > along the lines of "if Client requests more, this is my/our fee for changes, > per hour." > > then jack the hourly rate up REAL high. if they want it that bad, they'll > pay for it. > > christopher olive > cto, vp of web development, vp it security > atnet solutions, inc. > 410.931.4092 > http://www.atnetsolutions.com > > > -Original Message- > From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:49 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Bingo, that is correct. > As an example: >"I want a one-time rating system. I really want to capture the user's > first impression without them being able to change it." > [create a one time rating system] > "What if the user wants to change there rating? It does happen." > > At 08:04 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >I think he meant that clients often expand and dilute development > >methodology by adding features and functions to an application after the > dev > >plan is locked down... you know, your client comes in during the beta and > >says " hey you know I was thinking, what if we..". Personally, the > >best ideas I've ever had have come from clients - so I don't resent it. > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:56 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >not being contradictory here but, > > > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most > >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the > >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our > >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service > >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't > >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > > > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > > > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > > > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >cc: > > > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > I think he meant Daves. > > There is usually too much client involvement for a well wri
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
I did have such some clause... but in that case I made the change as a customer service move. Bad move, because now I had the precedent of going over and above for nothing extra. After making it known that I had done way more than was in the contract and that the clock was going to start ticking, I had a client who refused to pay his bill at the end of the month. Live and Learn! ;) At 11:02 AM 3/14/2002 -0500, you wrote: >that's the point of having an appendix b in your contract, with this sort >of thing specified. > >the clause in the contract referencing said appendix shoul dhave something >along the lines of "if Client requests more, this is my/our fee for >changes, per hour." > >then jack the hourly rate up REAL high. if they want it that bad, they'll >pay for it. > >christopher olive >cto, vp of web development, vp it security >atnet solutions, inc. >410.931.4092 >http://www.atnetsolutions.com > > >-Original Message- >From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:49 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Bingo, that is correct. > As an example: >"I want a one-time rating system. I really want to capture the user's >first impression without them being able to change it." > [create a one time rating system] > "What if the user wants to change there rating? It does happen." > >At 08:04 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >I think he meant that clients often expand and dilute development > >methodology by adding features and functions to an application after the dev > >plan is locked down... you know, your client comes in during the beta and > >says " hey you know I was thinking, what if we..". Personally, the > >best ideas I've ever had have come from clients - so I don't resent it. > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:56 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >not being contradictory here but, > > > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most > >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the > >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our > >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service > >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't > >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > > > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > > > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > > > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >cc: > > > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > I think he meant Daves. > > There is usually too much client involvement for a well written > >applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. > > > >At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: > > >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > > > > > >-Original Message- > > >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM > > >To: CF-Talk > > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a > > >dozen... > > > > > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: > > >--- snip --- > > > >it is > > > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and > >structured > > > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > > > >sixpence worth. > > > > > > > >Mike Brunt > > > >Sempra Energy > > > >213.244.5226 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Yup. That works. But it still ticks off the clients. If everyone was reasonable we wouldn't need governments, I guess... -Original Message- From: Christopher Olive [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons that's the point of having an appendix b in your contract, with this sort of thing specified. the clause in the contract referencing said appendix shoul dhave something along the lines of "if Client requests more, this is my/our fee for changes, per hour." then jack the hourly rate up REAL high. if they want it that bad, they'll pay for it. christopher olive cto, vp of web development, vp it security atnet solutions, inc. 410.931.4092 http://www.atnetsolutions.com -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Bingo, that is correct. As an example: "I want a one-time rating system. I really want to capture the user's first impression without them being able to change it." [create a one time rating system] "What if the user wants to change there rating? It does happen." At 08:04 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: >I think he meant that clients often expand and dilute development >methodology by adding features and functions to an application after the dev >plan is locked down... you know, your client comes in during the beta and >says " hey you know I was thinking, what if we..". Personally, the >best ideas I've ever had have come from clients - so I don't resent it. > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:56 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >not being contradictory here but, > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >cc: > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I think he meant Daves. > There is usually too much client involvement for a well written >applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. > >At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a > >dozen... > > > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >--- snip --- > > >it is > > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and >structured > > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > > >sixpence worth. > > > > > >Mike Brunt > > >Sempra Energy > > >213.244.5226 > > > > > > > > > __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
that's the point of having an appendix b in your contract, with this sort of thing specified. the clause in the contract referencing said appendix shoul dhave something along the lines of "if Client requests more, this is my/our fee for changes, per hour." then jack the hourly rate up REAL high. if they want it that bad, they'll pay for it. christopher olive cto, vp of web development, vp it security atnet solutions, inc. 410.931.4092 http://www.atnetsolutions.com -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Bingo, that is correct. As an example: "I want a one-time rating system. I really want to capture the user's first impression without them being able to change it." [create a one time rating system] "What if the user wants to change there rating? It does happen." At 08:04 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: >I think he meant that clients often expand and dilute development >methodology by adding features and functions to an application after the dev >plan is locked down... you know, your client comes in during the beta and >says " hey you know I was thinking, what if we..". Personally, the >best ideas I've ever had have come from clients - so I don't resent it. > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:56 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >not being contradictory here but, > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >cc: > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I think he meant Daves. > There is usually too much client involvement for a well written >applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. > >At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a > >dozen... > > > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >--- snip --- > > >it is > > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and >structured > > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > > >sixpence worth. > > > > > >Mike Brunt > > >Sempra Energy > > >213.244.5226 > > > > > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Bingo, that is correct. As an example: "I want a one-time rating system. I really want to capture the user's first impression without them being able to change it." [create a one time rating system] "What if the user wants to change there rating? It does happen." At 08:04 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: >I think he meant that clients often expand and dilute development >methodology by adding features and functions to an application after the dev >plan is locked down... you know, your client comes in during the beta and >says " hey you know I was thinking, what if we..". Personally, the >best ideas I've ever had have come from clients - so I don't resent it. > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:56 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >not being contradictory here but, > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >cc: > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I think he meant Daves. > There is usually too much client involvement for a well written >applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. > >At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a > >dozen... > > > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >--- snip --- > > >it is > > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and >structured > > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > > >sixpence worth. > > > > > >Mike Brunt > > >Sempra Energy > > >213.244.5226 > > > > > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
you got my point exactly. Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/14/2002 09:17:26 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons I was being sarcastic, meaning that clients will always come up with some foolish idea. From a recent discussion here, having the local weather (Relative to home office) taking up 90% of the Corporate Intranet homepage when the bulk of the users are from a remote location. I believe your standpoint is that even though that may be a bad design decision, it doesn't mean that the code is written poorly? I was referring to an application as a whole, including the GUI. Although on another note, most of my clients do have CF Skill in some extent. I'm usually hired specifically for my database design skills or other 'big / complicated stuff.' They do the simple stuff on there own. It has both benefits and problems. On one of my last projects, I bid out to add 'X, Y, Z' functionality to the site. The client thought I was going to also re-code everything he had coded in the 'right' way. There is a big communication gap there, as you can imagine. At 08:55 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: >not being contradictory here but, > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >cc: > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I think he meant Daves. > There is usually too much client involvement for a well written >applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. > >At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a > >dozen... > > > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >--- snip --- > > >it is > > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and >structured > > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > > >sixpence worth. > > > > > >Mike Brunt > > >Sempra Energy > > >213.244.5226 > > > > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
i read ya. :-) "Ian Lurie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/14/2002 09:09:25 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons That's easy: When a client starts a sentence with 'Wouldn't it be easy to...', and you've already completed requirements collection, and done all the stuff you're supposed to to prevent scope creep, but know that you're in for a fight anyway. That's 'destructive' input. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons not being contradictory here but, how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't know the tech., how can they have destructive input? possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons I think he meant Daves. There is usually too much client involvement for a well written applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > >-Original Message- >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a >dozen... > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- snip --- > >it is > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > >sixpence worth. > > > >Mike Brunt > >Sempra Energy > >213.244.5226 > > > __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
I was being sarcastic, meaning that clients will always come up with some foolish idea. From a recent discussion here, having the local weather (Relative to home office) taking up 90% of the Corporate Intranet homepage when the bulk of the users are from a remote location. I believe your standpoint is that even though that may be a bad design decision, it doesn't mean that the code is written poorly? I was referring to an application as a whole, including the GUI. Although on another note, most of my clients do have CF Skill in some extent. I'm usually hired specifically for my database design skills or other 'big / complicated stuff.' They do the simple stuff on there own. It has both benefits and problems. On one of my last projects, I bid out to add 'X, Y, Z' functionality to the site. The client thought I was going to also re-code everything he had coded in the 'right' way. There is a big communication gap there, as you can imagine. At 08:55 AM 3/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: >not being contradictory here but, > >how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most >of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the >organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our >individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service >is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't >know the tech., how can they have destructive input? > >possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan > > > > >Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM > >Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >cc: > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I think he meant Daves. > There is usually too much client involvement for a well written >applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. > >At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM > >To: CF-Talk > >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a > >dozen... > > > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >--- snip --- > > >it is > > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and >structured > > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > > >sixpence worth. > > > > > >Mike Brunt > > >Sempra Energy > > >213.244.5226 > > > > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
That's easy: When a client starts a sentence with 'Wouldn't it be easy to...', and you've already completed requirements collection, and done all the stuff you're supposed to to prevent scope creep, but know that you're in for a fight anyway. That's 'destructive' input. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons not being contradictory here but, how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't know the tech., how can they have destructive input? possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons I think he meant Daves. There is usually too much client involvement for a well written applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > >-Original Message- >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a >dozen... > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- snip --- > >it is > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > >sixpence worth. > > > >Mike Brunt > >Sempra Energy > >213.244.5226 > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
I think he meant that clients often expand and dilute development methodology by adding features and functions to an application after the dev plan is locked down... you know, your client comes in during the beta and says " hey you know I was thinking, what if we..". Personally, the best ideas I've ever had have come from clients - so I don't resent it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons not being contradictory here but, how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't know the tech., how can they have destructive input? possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons I think he meant Daves. There is usually too much client involvement for a well written applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > >-Original Message- >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a >dozen... > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- snip --- > >it is > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > >sixpence worth. > > > >Mike Brunt > >Sempra Energy > >213.244.5226 > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
not being contradictory here but, how does too much client envolment hinder a well written application? most of the clients i've worked with don't have the CF skillset in the organization so I've been able to keep everything pretty clean, as our individual interpretations of "clean" go. I would think that our service is applying technology to business rules. if they, the consumers, don't know the tech., how can they have destructive input? possibly just lucky w/ the clients i've had?...savan Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 03/13/2002 07:05:04 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons I think he meant Daves. There is usually too much client involvement for a well written applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > >-Original Message- >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a >dozen... > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- snip --- > >it is > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > >sixpence worth. > > > >Mike Brunt > >Sempra Energy > >213.244.5226 > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> As does everyone, I'd guess. I prefer using stored procedures for that. Once > you place your database access logic in the database itself, there's little > to be gained from saving a three-line CF file in a separate location. Unless you have to make changes to that stored procedure and now you have to find every where you called it in your code. > And this takes me to my primary complaint about Fusebox. It tells you how to > organize your CF code. I don't think that this is where CF developers get in > trouble, generally. Instead, they should more often be thinking about how to > partition their application, and put various pieces of code in different > tiers. How about an example of what you mean then. I am interested in the best way, what ever way that may be. Right now Fusebox works very well for me. > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > http://www.figleaf.com/ > voice: (202) 797-5496 > fax: (202) 797-5444 Bill K. __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
I think he meant Daves. There is usually too much client involvement for a well written applications to exist. It is the curse of being the service industry. At 04:24 PM 3/13/2002 -0600, you wrote: >What? well written applications? Or Daves? > >-Original Message- >From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM >To: CF-Talk >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a >dozen... > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- snip --- > >it is > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > >sixpence worth. > > > >Mike Brunt > >Sempra Energy > >213.244.5226 > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
What? well written applications? Or Daves? -Original Message- From: Cary Gordon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:31 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a dozen... At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: --- snip --- >it is >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My >sixpence worth. > >Mike Brunt >Sempra Energy >213.244.5226 __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
ROTFL! Not everyone can know everything. Just because someone doesn't know everything doesn't mean that are creating bad or malformed applications. I bet even Dave doesn't know everything. ( That's why he hired Simon, right? ) At 09:30 AM 3/13/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a >dozen... > >At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- snip --- > >it is > >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured > >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My > >sixpence worth. > > > >Mike Brunt > >Sempra Energy > >213.244.5226 > > __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Based on his contributions to this list, I'd guess that there are about a dozen... At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: --- snip --- >it is >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My >sixpence worth. > >Mike Brunt >Sempra Energy >213.244.5226 __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
Roger B. wrote: > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:22:10 +0100, in cf-talk you wrote: > >>I don't see the problem with a custom tag reaching out to a server level >>variable to determine the OS and thereby the directory delimiter. > > Why wouldn't you simply pass that server level variable into the tag > as an attribute? What's the point of side-stepping the custom tag > interface and treating it like an include? Simplicity for the user. If I design a customtag to replace cfmail I want it to act somewhat like cfmail. That means that if a spooldir is not explicitly passed in, it is read from the registry. If a port, SMTP server, directory delimiter, output format etc. are not defined as customtag attributes I read default values from the registry and server variables. If people want to specify them explicitly in the attributes they are welcome to do so. If not, it works just fine, but a little bit slower. Even though I don't really like a customtag to be dependent on something that is not explicitly passed into it, I don't see any real problem. Jochem __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:40:19 -0500, in cf-talk you wrote: >I prefer using stored procedures for that. Once >you place your database access logic in the database itself, there's little >to be gained from saving a three-line CF file in a separate location. Dave, You *have* seen the worst of FB, haven't you? :) I have little in the way of three line CF files, myself... I think that's going overboard. To broaden my example, that query file I mentioned *does* run a query... but then it checks to see if any records were returned. If not, it constructs a special, substitute query. Then it loads a series of associated WDDX files from the file server, does a little string manipulation, and merges them into the query in question. SPs aren't a useful option in my particular app, but I'm all for your argument that people should use them as much as possible. But even if the example were using an SP instead of a CF-generated query, the rest of that work would still need doing. And Fusebox provides a nice way to access that work without having every other app on the server re-invent the wheel. -- Roger __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:22:10 +0100, in cf-talk you wrote: >I don't see the problem with a custom tag reaching out to a server level >variable to determine the OS and thereby the directory delimiter. Jochem, Why wouldn't you simply pass that server level variable into the tag as an attribute? What's the point of side-stepping the custom tag interface and treating it like an include? -- Roger __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
Roger B. wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:48:48 -0500, in cf-talk you wrote: > >>My complaint with this technique is the same, essentially, as my complaint >>with using the Request scope to share data between custom tags and their >>calling pages. It breaks the model of defined inputs and outputs. > > I think those two issues are apples and oranges. In the case of the > request scope and custom tags, I agree with you. A custom tag > shouldn't be "reaching out" to grab its data from global variables... > that data should be explicitly sent into the tag. I don't see the problem with a custom tag reaching out to a server level variable to determine the OS and thereby the directory delimiter. I do see a problem with a custom tag writing to anything but the variables scope. Writing might have consequences for other applications. Jochem __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
No more so than with any other website. It's not a Fusebox issue. Ken -Original Message- From: jon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons This might be a dumb question, but don't you have trouble with the back button if you always go through one page? __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
This might be a dumb question, but don't you have trouble with the back button if you always go through one page? -- jon - jon roig online community services manager epilepsy foundation tel: 215.850.0710 site: http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
> And this takes me to my primary complaint about Fusebox. It tells you how to > organize your CF code. I don't think that this is where CF developers get in > trouble, generally. Instead, they should more often be thinking about how to > partition their application, and put various pieces of code in different > tiers. It would be a shame if nothing were learned from the history of > client-server development. and thus was born "no box". --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> Let me give you a concrete example with which I'm intimately familiar: > > Let's say you have a forum app. One of its tasks is to display a list > of recent discussions... let's give that task a name like > "showtopics". Showtopics' work is broken down into a query, the > creation of a thread structure, and then the layout of the page. > > Now, if I want to display a list of recent forum discussions on my > site's front page, I *could* recreate the query call, the threading > code, and wedge it into the code that creates that front page. Or I > could simply call my fusebox as a custom tag and say, "Hey, use your > pre-existing code to feed me the query results and that structure... > but leave off your presentation stuff, 'cause I'll do that myself." > > Call me crazy, but when I have a chance to separate data from > presentation, I take it. :) As does everyone, I'd guess. I prefer using stored procedures for that. Once you place your database access logic in the database itself, there's little to be gained from saving a three-line CF file in a separate location. And this takes me to my primary complaint about Fusebox. It tells you how to organize your CF code. I don't think that this is where CF developers get in trouble, generally. Instead, they should more often be thinking about how to partition their application, and put various pieces of code in different tiers. It would be a shame if nothing were learned from the history of client-server development. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
If my aunt were a man she'd be my uncle... -Original Message- From: Roger B. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Fusebox pros and cons On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:51:39 -0500, in cf-talk you wrote: >That is, you couldn't usefully pry the module out >of the application and use it just anywhere, because it relies on the data >structure of the parent application. Dave, Agreed. I should state for the record that I'm not of the FB3, drag-and-drop, reuse-the-same-fuses-across-a-dozen-applications school. When I talk about code modularization and reuse in Fusebox, I'm talking specifically about having an app serve as a sort of inter-application "web service" via the custom tag interface. >I don't find this level of linkage >especially useful - either something is dependent on the larger application, >or it's not, from a linkage perspective. Let me give you a concrete example with which I'm intimately familiar: Let's say you have a forum app. One of its tasks is to display a list of recent discussions... let's give that task a name like "showtopics". Showtopics' work is broken down into a query, the creation of a thread structure, and then the layout of the page. Now, if I want to display a list of recent forum discussions on my site's front page, I *could* recreate the query call, the threading code, and wedge it into the code that creates that front page. Or I could simply call my fusebox as a custom tag and say, "Hey, use your pre-existing code to feed me the query results and that structure... but leave off your presentation stuff, 'cause I'll do that myself." Call me crazy, but when I have a chance to separate data from presentation, I take it. :) >I should note that I'm not a fan of Fusebox. I know, and I'm not a fan of *all* of it... the official version, anyway. But I like some of the core ideas a great deal. -- Roger __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:51:39 -0500, in cf-talk you wrote: >That is, you couldn't usefully pry the module out >of the application and use it just anywhere, because it relies on the data >structure of the parent application. Dave, Agreed. I should state for the record that I'm not of the FB3, drag-and-drop, reuse-the-same-fuses-across-a-dozen-applications school. When I talk about code modularization and reuse in Fusebox, I'm talking specifically about having an app serve as a sort of inter-application "web service" via the custom tag interface. >I don't find this level of linkage >especially useful - either something is dependent on the larger application, >or it's not, from a linkage perspective. Let me give you a concrete example with which I'm intimately familiar: Let's say you have a forum app. One of its tasks is to display a list of recent discussions... let's give that task a name like "showtopics". Showtopics' work is broken down into a query, the creation of a thread structure, and then the layout of the page. Now, if I want to display a list of recent forum discussions on my site's front page, I *could* recreate the query call, the threading code, and wedge it into the code that creates that front page. Or I could simply call my fusebox as a custom tag and say, "Hey, use your pre-existing code to feed me the query results and that structure... but leave off your presentation stuff, 'cause I'll do that myself." Call me crazy, but when I have a chance to separate data from presentation, I take it. :) >I should note that I'm not a fan of Fusebox. I know, and I'm not a fan of *all* of it... the official version, anyway. But I like some of the core ideas a great deal. -- Roger __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> > What would happen, for example, if your program received a > > value for Form.myvar, and a different value for URL.myvar? > > In my apps, the form variable would "win" the spot in the > attributes scope. Not a problem. Is this explicitly noted in the application architecture? If not, it's a problem, from my perspective. Good design explicitly notes such things, rather than relying on "default" behaviors, which may either be misunderstood by others reading your code, or which may lead someone reading your code to incorrectly infer that a different behavior may occur, or which don't explicitly describe what you intend to occur. For example, let's say you have the following expression: x = 5; y = 3; z = 2; final = x + y * z; Now, we can both read that, and because we know the order of evaluation, we'll be able to figure out that our final variable will be equal to 11, rather than 16, because the multiplication will be performed first. However, we can't be sure that the original author intended that behavior - we can only assume that the author knew the order of evaluation. So, from this perspective, the use of parentheses may improve the readability of the statement: final = x + (y * z); Now, looking at that, we can determine not only what it'll actually do, but what the author intended it to do. I admit that this is a trivial example, and am not saying that you should always use parentheses, but that code which is self-documenting is, all other things being equal, superior to code which isn't. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> > Typically, modules within an existing application are > > linked tightly enough to the rest of the application > > that there's very little to be gained by calling them > > as custom tags, in my opinion. > > Okay... but that's not a description of a typical Fusebox > application, where one of the primary ideas is avoiding > tightly linked modules. One set of sufficiently abstract > queries can power an application and simultaneously expose > that application's data or services to other apps via the > custom tag interface... and any optimization of those queries > (or whatever) benefits not just the core app, but everything > that calls it. In my experience (primarily with Fusebox applications written by others, admittedly), modules are kind of in a state of limbo between being tightly linked and loosely linked. That is, you couldn't usefully pry the module out of the application and use it just anywhere, because it relies on the data structure of the parent application. I don't find this level of linkage especially useful - either something is dependent on the larger application, or it's not, from a linkage perspective. As for "sufficiently abstract queries", I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but it sounds like the kiss of death to application performance if done improperly. I should note that I'm not a fan of Fusebox. I find that, for myself, the burden imposed by the organizational structure outweighs any benefits provided by that organizational structure. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:48:48 -0500, in cf-talk you wrote: >What would happen, for example, if your program received a value for >Form.myvar, and a different value for URL.myvar? Dave, In my apps, the form variable would "win" the spot in the attributes scope. Not a problem. >My complaint with this technique is the same, essentially, as my complaint >with using the Request scope to share data between custom tags and their >calling pages. It breaks the model of defined inputs and outputs. I think those two issues are apples and oranges. In the case of the request scope and custom tags, I agree with you. A custom tag shouldn't be "reaching out" to grab its data from global variables... that data should be explicitly sent into the tag. But in the case of the formurl2attributes thing, nothing is breaking... attributes is as valid an input scope as form or url. There's no "reaching out" involved. -- Roger __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:05:16 -0500, in cf-talk you wrote: >Typically, >modules within an existing application are linked tightly enough to the rest >of the application that there's very little to be gained by calling them as >custom tags, in my opinion. Dave, Okay... but that's not a description of a typical Fusebox application, where one of the primary ideas is avoiding tightly linked modules. One set of sufficiently abstract queries can power an application and simultaneously expose that application's data or services to other apps via the custom tag interface... and any optimization of those queries (or whatever) benefits not just the core app, but everything that calls it. -- Roger __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> > Yes, that's all well and good. However, my original point, > > which I didn't make clear enough, is that when I write a > > program, that program should explicitly accept specific > > inputs from specific locations. This isn't a documentation > > issue, it's a program design issue. > > Specific inputs? yes. But specific locations? What's not > appealing about being able to refer to the same URL variables > you're used to, then at some point down the road, also being > able to refer to that same variable coming from a form or even > a custom tag without having to recode anything? If you're > worried about looping through your form structure, you can still > refer to it using the form scope - it's just also available > in an attributes scope for further flexibility. I'm not trying > to convert anyone or anything, it's all a matter of opinion > I guess, but I would be interested in hearing of an example > where the attributes scope gets in the way or ruins the design. Unless you're practicing yoga, uninhibited flexibility is not necessarily a good thing. The fact is, Form.myvar is not the same variable as URL.myvar - part of what defines a variable is its namespace, or scope. If you want to write a program which can accept either, that's fine - but you should probably do that explicitly, rather than simply copying those variables into a third scope. What would happen, for example, if your program received a value for Form.myvar, and a different value for URL.myvar? This may be unlikely, but good program design is supposed to cover the unlikely events as well as the likely ones. My complaint with this technique is the same, essentially, as my complaint with using the Request scope to share data between custom tags and their calling pages. It breaks the model of defined inputs and outputs. The design of a program should be limiting where appropriate, and personally, I think that in most cases, clearly defining and limiting the expected inputs of a program is an appropriate limitation for that program. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Ah.. well, thanks for putting me straight on that. -Original Message- From: stas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:23 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Fusebox pros and cons You still get your FORM and URL vars with Fusebox. If you don't want to read them from the attributtes scope, you don't have to! - Original Message - From: "Mark A. Kruger - CFG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hear hear - reminds me of a conversation I had with a Java programmer who told me that JSP conveniently converted all URL and FORM variables to the same "request" scope. Which would pretty much break a lot of my form programming . I like being able to specify scopes and keep items logically separated. mark -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE > scoped vars are converted to attributes scope. I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually want to know where the inputs for that program come from. __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> Yes, that's all well and good. However, my original point, > which I didn't > make clear enough, is that when I write a program, that program should > explicitly accept specific inputs from specific locations. > This isn't a > documentation issue, it's a program design issue. Specific inputs? yes. But specific locations? What's not appealing about being able to refer to the same URL variables you're used to, then at some point down the road, also being able to refer to that same variable coming from a form or even a custom tag without having to recode anything? If you're worried about looping through your form structure, you can still refer to it using the form scope - it's just also available in an attributes scope for further flexibility. I'm not trying to convert anyone or anything, it's all a matter of opinion I guess, but I would be interested in hearing of an example where the attributes scope gets in the way or ruins the design. Adam. __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
You still get your FORM and URL vars with Fusebox. If you don't want to read them from the attributtes scope, you don't have to! - Original Message - From: "Mark A. Kruger - CFG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hear hear - reminds me of a conversation I had with a Java programmer who told me that JSP conveniently converted all URL and FORM variables to the same "request" scope. Which would pretty much break a lot of my form programming . I like being able to specify scopes and keep items logically separated. mark -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE > scoped vars are converted to attributes scope. I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually want to know where the inputs for that program come from. __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
At 09:11 AM 3/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >I'm late in this thread as always (PST time and Starbucks Coffee excuse>). The greatest advantage of Fusebox from my experience is that it >enables non ColdFusion savvy developers and designers to get up to speed >quickly in CF. It gives them a structured set of reference points, You have a good point, although that is not a unique characteristic to Fusebox. >it is >true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured >but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My >sixpence worth. This made me laugh. ;) I think it is sad, but true. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Need a Web Developer? Contact me! AIM: Reboog711 | Fax / Phone: 860-223-7946 -- My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> I like being able to specify scopes and keep > items logically separated. Fusebox doesn't destroy the original scope or alter it in any way, it just makes the data available in the attributes scope should you have a desire to reference it that way. Ken __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
I'm late in this thread as always (PST time and Starbucks Coffee ). The greatest advantage of Fusebox from my experience is that it enables non ColdFusion savvy developers and designers to get up to speed quickly in CF. It gives them a structured set of reference points, it is true that any well written CF Application should be logical and structured but there aren't that many Dave Watt's et al in the real CF World, My sixpence worth. Mike Brunt Sempra Energy 213.244.5226 "A complex system that does not work is invariably found to have evolved from a simpler system that worked just fine. " -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:05 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful > > in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually > > want to know where the inputs for that program come from. > > The new fusedocs really are a nice touch to the current > methodology - they specifically map out what's coming in > and what's going out of each file. You can always use > studio's split screen function to keep that 'key' right at > the top of your page if you start confusing scopes. Also, > given the structure of the fusedocs, XML, you can imagine > the uses of this (ie. auto documentation-booklet generation, > visual mapping of your application, etc). Yes, that's all well and good. However, my original point, which I didn't make clear enough, is that when I write a program, that program should explicitly accept specific inputs from specific locations. This isn't a documentation issue, it's a program design issue. > I would have to say that it would be an advantage when > desigining sub-applications or modules that can be called > as custom tags. As far as knowing where inputs come from, > that would be a documentation issue. Again, as stated above, I don't see this as a documentation issue. Using the Attributes scope for everything may be useful if you want to treat everything as a custom tag; I don't find that to be appealing. Typically, modules within an existing application are linked tightly enough to the rest of the application that there's very little to be gained by calling them as custom tags, in my opinion. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> > I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful > > in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually > > want to know where the inputs for that program come from. > > The new fusedocs really are a nice touch to the current > methodology - they specifically map out what's coming in > and what's going out of each file. You can always use > studio's split screen function to keep that 'key' right at > the top of your page if you start confusing scopes. Also, > given the structure of the fusedocs, XML, you can imagine > the uses of this (ie. auto documentation-booklet generation, > visual mapping of your application, etc). Yes, that's all well and good. However, my original point, which I didn't make clear enough, is that when I write a program, that program should explicitly accept specific inputs from specific locations. This isn't a documentation issue, it's a program design issue. > I would have to say that it would be an advantage when > desigining sub-applications or modules that can be called > as custom tags. As far as knowing where inputs come from, > that would be a documentation issue. Again, as stated above, I don't see this as a documentation issue. Using the Attributes scope for everything may be useful if you want to treat everything as a custom tag; I don't find that to be appealing. Typically, modules within an existing application are linked tightly enough to the rest of the application that there's very little to be gained by calling them as custom tags, in my opinion. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Hear hear - reminds me of a conversation I had with a Java programmer who told me that JSP conveniently converted all URL and FORM variables to the same "request" scope. Which would pretty much break a lot of my form programming . I like being able to specify scopes and keep items logically separated. mark -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:20 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE > scoped vars are converted to attributes scope. I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually want to know where the inputs for that program come from. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful in > places, but when > I'm writing a program, I usually want to know where the > inputs for that > program come from. The new fusedocs really are a nice touch to the current methodology - they specifically map out what's coming in and what's going out of each file. You can always use studio's split screen function to keep that 'key' right at the top of your page if you start confusing scopes. Also, given the structure of the fusedocs, XML, you can imagine the uses of this (ie. auto documentation-booklet generation, visual mapping of your application, etc). > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > http://www.figleaf.com/ > voice: (202) 797-5496 > fax: (202) 797-5444 > > __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
I would have to say that it would be an advantage when desigining sub-applications or modules that can be called as custom tags. As far as knowing where inputs come from, that would be a documentation issue. Just my $.02 worth. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:20 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE > scoped vars are converted to attributes scope. I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually want to know where the inputs for that program come from. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
True, but it's not as complete as standard packages like LiveStats for example. There's no doubt about the advantages, but IMHO the abstraction causes other issues. - Original Message - From: "John Beynon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:48 AM Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > There's a $50 fusebox log tool available from www.secretagents.com for > online reporting...basic, but its pretty powerful, > > Jb. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Frank Mamone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: 12 March 2002 15:48 > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Re: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > Because of this reason I decided not to go with it. Many > > clients have standard Web Stats packages already installed. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Donny Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM > > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > > Very well said. > > > > > > One more Pro: > > > > > > - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I > > will take care > > > of the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" > > > circuit. > > > > > > Yet one more Con: > > > > > > - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their > > website. Since > > > FB always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get > > millions of hits > > > to index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is > > > possible, just need some extra work. > > > > > > Just my 2 cents > > > > > > Donny > > > iLogic Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM > > > To: CF-Talk > > > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > > > > Can open, worms all over the floor! > > > > > > IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated > > followers - if > > > you come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to > > > adopt fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), > > however if you > > > come to CF from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox > > > like a java built duck to object oriented water. > > > > > > Advantages: > > > 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in > > again and > > > again to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. > > > 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and > > > have people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while > > never being > > > able to see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component > > > development > > > 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the > > rooms together > > > (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid > > component > > > development and site building. > > > > > > Disadvantages: > > > 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head > > around if > > > you build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox > > seems like > > > DNA > > level > > > work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the > > > seed.) > > > 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to > > "fix" an error in > > a > > > site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really > > > depends > > on > > > how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) > > > 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF > > > developers world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - > > > both of these come from hard-core programming backgrounds, > > others have > > > tried and given up - > > FB > > > is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > > > > > > Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I > > > think there may be two FB camps now > > > > > > J > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 > > > To: CF-Talk > > > Subject: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > > > > I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the > > > time > > to > > > learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? > > Are there any > > good > > > books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I > > need on my > > > server to be able to use it? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
> One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE > scoped vars are converted to attributes scope. I'm not so sure that's an advantage. It might be useful in places, but when I'm writing a program, I usually want to know where the inputs for that program come from. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
I agree ( and would add, based on another post that I already deleted ) that... Working in a team is not unique to fusebox. I can still work with other programmers in a team, even if I do not code with fusebox. I would argue to the below that converting URL / FORM / ATTRIBUTE variables to a single scope is un-necessary in many cases. At 10:59 AM 3/12/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I don't mean to be a fusebox shil here, but... > >One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE scoped vars are >converted to attributes scope. So, you could have a url/stats safe page >such as: www.mysite.com/shop/viewitem.cfm which contains only the code: > > >FuseBox and URL vars aren't really tied together. > >Of course, every site and situation is different, so there are always >reasons to go or not go with fusebox. > > >>> "Frank Mamone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 03/12/02 10:47AM >>> >Because of this reason I decided not to go with it. Many clients have >standard Web Stats packages already installed. > > >- Original Message - >From: "Donny Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM >Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > Very well said. > > > > One more Pro: > > > > - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will take care of > > the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" circuit. > > > > Yet one more Con: > > > > - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their website. Since FB > > always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to > > index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is possible, > > just need some extra work. > > > > Just my 2 cents > > > > Donny > > iLogic Inc. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > Can open, worms all over the floor! > > > > IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you > > come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt > > fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF > > from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built > > duck to object oriented water. > > > > Advantages: > > 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again > > to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. > > 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have > > people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to > > see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development > > 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together > > (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid >component > > development and site building. > > > > Disadvantages: > > 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you > > build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA >level > > work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) > > 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in >a > > site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends >on > > how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) > > 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers > > world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come > > from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - >FB > > is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > > > > Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think > > there may be two FB camps now > > > > J > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time >to > > learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any >good > > books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my > > server to be able to use it? > > > > Thanks, > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
I don't mean to be a fusebox shil here, but... One advantage of FB is that all URL, FORM and ATTRUBUTE scoped vars are converted to attributes scope. So, you could have a url/stats safe page such as: www.mysite.com/shop/viewitem.cfm which contains only the code: FuseBox and URL vars aren't really tied together. Of course, every site and situation is different, so there are always reasons to go or not go with fusebox. >>> "Frank Mamone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 03/12/02 10:47AM >>> Because of this reason I decided not to go with it. Many clients have standard Web Stats packages already installed. - Original Message - From: "Donny Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > Very well said. > > One more Pro: > > - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will take care of > the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" circuit. > > Yet one more Con: > > - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their website. Since FB > always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to > index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is possible, > just need some extra work. > > Just my 2 cents > > Donny > iLogic Inc. > > > > -Original Message- > From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Can open, worms all over the floor! > > IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you > come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt > fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF > from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built > duck to object oriented water. > > Advantages: > 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again > to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. > 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have > people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to > see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development > 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together > (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component > development and site building. > > Disadvantages: > 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you > build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA level > work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) > 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in a > site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends on > how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) > 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers > world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come > from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB > is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > > Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think > there may be two FB camps now > > J > > -Original Message- > From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time to > learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any good > books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my > server to be able to use it? > > Thanks, > > T > > > > __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
There's a $50 fusebox log tool available from www.secretagents.com for online reporting...basic, but its pretty powerful, Jb. > -Original Message- > From: Frank Mamone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 12 March 2002 15:48 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Because of this reason I decided not to go with it. Many > clients have standard Web Stats packages already installed. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Donny Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > Very well said. > > > > One more Pro: > > > > - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I > will take care > > of the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" > > circuit. > > > > Yet one more Con: > > > > - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their > website. Since > > FB always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get > millions of hits > > to index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is > > possible, just need some extra work. > > > > Just my 2 cents > > > > Donny > > iLogic Inc. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > Can open, worms all over the floor! > > > > IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated > followers - if > > you come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to > > adopt fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), > however if you > > come to CF from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox > > like a java built duck to object oriented water. > > > > Advantages: > > 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in > again and > > again to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. > > 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and > > have people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while > never being > > able to see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component > > development > > 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the > rooms together > > (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid > component > > development and site building. > > > > Disadvantages: > > 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head > around if > > you build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox > seems like > > DNA > level > > work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the > > seed.) > > 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to > "fix" an error in > a > > site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really > > depends > on > > how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) > > 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF > > developers world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - > > both of these come from hard-core programming backgrounds, > others have > > tried and given up - > FB > > is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > > > > Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I > > think there may be two FB camps now > > > > J > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Fusebox pros and cons > > > > > > I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the > > time > to > > learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? > Are there any > good > > books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I > need on my > > server to be able to use it? > > > > Thanks, > > > > T > > > > > > > > > __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Fusebox pros and cons
Because of this reason I decided not to go with it. Many clients have standard Web Stats packages already installed. - Original Message - From: "Donny Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > Very well said. > > One more Pro: > > - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will take care of > the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" circuit. > > Yet one more Con: > > - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their website. Since FB > always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to > index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is possible, > just need some extra work. > > Just my 2 cents > > Donny > iLogic Inc. > > > > -Original Message----- > From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Can open, worms all over the floor! > > IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you > come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt > fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF > from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built > duck to object oriented water. > > Advantages: > 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again > to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. > 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have > people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to > see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development > 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together > (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component > development and site building. > > Disadvantages: > 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you > build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA level > work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) > 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in a > site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends on > how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) > 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers > world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come > from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB > is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > > Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think > there may be two FB camps now > > J > > -Original Message- > From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time to > learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any good > books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my > server to be able to use it? > > Thanks, > > T > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
With webtrends, i've never had trouble with urls. For instance, "http://www.sitename.com/index.cfm?page=home"; is counted separate from "http://www.sitename.com/index.cfm?page=news"; The only problem is that you can't tell (from webtrends) how popular certain applications are if you use url params. In these cases I just use a db and a little custom code to track usage. If you have specific needs, you can always make a script that runs through log files to get more meaningful stats. >>> Robert Everland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 03/12/02 10:27AM >>> To take away your con, we use SES urls (search engine safe). Erik V made a tag that changes a url from index.cfm?fuseaciont=something.something&here=there to index.cfm/fuseaction/something.something/here/there/index.html . Not only will this help with the crappy search engines that aren't google, it will make your reporting accurate. Robert Everland III Dixon Ticonderoga Web Developer Extraordinaire -Original Message- From: Donny Ng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Very well said. One more Pro: - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will take care of the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" circuit. Yet one more Con: - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their website. Since FB always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is possible, just need some extra work. Just my 2 cents Donny iLogic Inc. -Original Message- From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Can open, worms all over the floor! IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built duck to object oriented water. Advantages: 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component development and site building. Disadvantages: 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA level work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in a site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends on how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think there may be two FB camps now J -Original Message- From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: Fusebox pros and cons I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time to learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any good books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my server to be able to use it? Thanks, T __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
There's also an ISAPI filter that does this which we use: http://www.pstruh.cz/help/urlrepl/library.htm > -Original Message- > From: Robert Everland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 12 March 2002 15:28 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > To take away your con, we use SES urls (search engine safe). > Erik V made a > tag that changes a url from > index.cfm?fuseaciont=something.something&here=there to > index.cfm/fuseaction/something.something/here/there/index.html > . Not only > will this help with the crappy search engines that aren't > google, it will > make your reporting accurate. > > Robert Everland III > Dixon Ticonderoga > Web Developer Extraordinaire > > -Original Message- > From: Donny Ng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Very well said. > > One more Pro: > > - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will > take care of > the "login" circuit and you will take care of the > "ShoppingCart" circuit. > > Yet one more Con: > > - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their > website. Since FB > always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to > index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting > is possible, > just need some extra work. > > Just my 2 cents > > Donny > iLogic Inc. > > > > -Original Message- > From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons > > > Can open, worms all over the floor! > > IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated > followers - if you > come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt > fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if > you come to CF > from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like > a java built > duck to object oriented water. > > Advantages: > 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in > again and again > to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. > 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your > product and have > people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never > being able to > see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development > 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together > (build a site completely before you even put it together) - > rapid component > development and site building. > > Disadvantages: > 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head > around if you > build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems > like DNA level > work - where you can build the flower first then get around > to the seed.) > 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to > "fix" an error in a > site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - > really depends on > how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) > 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 > CF developers > world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both > of these come > from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and > given up - FB > is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > > Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - > but I think > there may be two FB camps now > > J > > -Original Message- > From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Fusebox pros and cons > > > I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth > taking the time to > learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are > there any good > books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my > server to be able to use it? > > Thanks, > > T > > > > > __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
To take away your con, we use SES urls (search engine safe). Erik V made a tag that changes a url from index.cfm?fuseaciont=something.something&here=there to index.cfm/fuseaction/something.something/here/there/index.html . Not only will this help with the crappy search engines that aren't google, it will make your reporting accurate. Robert Everland III Dixon Ticonderoga Web Developer Extraordinaire -Original Message- From: Donny Ng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:27 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Very well said. One more Pro: - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will take care of the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" circuit. Yet one more Con: - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their website. Since FB always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is possible, just need some extra work. Just my 2 cents Donny iLogic Inc. -Original Message- From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Can open, worms all over the floor! IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built duck to object oriented water. Advantages: 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component development and site building. Disadvantages: 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA level work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in a site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends on how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think there may be two FB camps now J -Original Message- From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: Fusebox pros and cons I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time to learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any good books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my server to be able to use it? Thanks, T __ Get Your Own Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionb FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Very well said. One more Pro: - It also faclitate developers to work in team. e.g. I will take care of the "login" circuit and you will take care of the "ShoppingCart" circuit. Yet one more Con: - FB is nasty if your clients need reporting on their website. Since FB always goes thru index.cfm first. You might get millions of hits to index.cfm but 0 hits to the other files. I suppose reporting is possible, just need some extra work. Just my 2 cents Donny iLogic Inc. -Original Message- From: James Maltby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: March 12, 2002 7:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fusebox pros and cons Can open, worms all over the floor! IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built duck to object oriented water. Advantages: 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component development and site building. Disadvantages: 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA level work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in a site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends on how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think there may be two FB camps now J -Original Message- From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: Fusebox pros and cons I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time to learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any good books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my server to be able to use it? Thanks, T __ Dedicated Windows 2000 Server PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusiona FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
>Can open, worms all over the floor! > >IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you >come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt >fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF >from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built >duck to object oriented water. > >Advantages: >1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again >to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. >2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have >people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to >see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development >3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together >(build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component >development and site building. > >Disadvantages: >1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you >build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA >level >work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) >2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in >a >site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends >on >how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) >3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers >world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come >from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB >is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! > >Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think >there may be two FB camps now > A couple sites that might be useful in your research are: 1. Fusebox.org, where you can find the latest core files and example apps: www.fusebox.org 2. Hal Helms' site for in-depth writings and tutorials: www.halhelms.com 3. Fusebox mailing list, which is just like this list in terms of useful help, but the host (Topica) is God awful and you will often have problems receiving the messages: www.topica.com/lists/fusebox/ 4. An immensely informative newbie tutorial by Kathryn Butterfly, which can be found at bombusbee.com/index.php?fuseaction=downloads. There are many more resources out there too, but this list should give you a solid start and allow you to determine if Fusebox is for you. And no, you don't need anything special on your machine except for ColdFusion Server and the free core files. I've personally just started using it, and I find certain aspects of it to be incredibly powerful, and I find I'm much more organized. However, some drawbacks I've encountered are lack of error-handling support (coming in a future release), and the concept of layouts tends to be a bit nebulous and unnecessarily complex to implement. Another issue the Fuseboxers are going to have to deal with at some point is integrating it with Neo. Obviously I can't get into details because of the NDA, but all I will say is that there are some core principles of the methodology that are not 100% compatible with the next release of CF and need to be addressed. Hope this helps, Dave. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Fusebox pros and cons
Can open, worms all over the floor! IMHO - Fusebox is a methodology with a lot of dedicated followers - if you come to CF from a "coders" background it's very rare for you to adopt fusebox (unless you are first taught this way), however if you come to CF from a "programmers" background you will take to fusebox like a java built duck to object oriented water. Advantages: 1) re-use your code (build something once, then plug it in again and again to each of your solutions) - reuse code in a O-O style. 2) work by piece rate (farm out whole sections of your product and have people in sweat shops work over "fuses" for you while never being able to see the whole picture) - remote and rapid component development 3) build the bricks first then make rooms then slot the rooms together (build a site completely before you even put it together) - rapid component development and site building. Disadvantages: 1) Non-linear development structure (hard to get your head around if you build sites "organically" from seed to flower - fusebox seems like DNA level work - where you can build the flower first then get around to the seed.) 2) Needs very good documentation to follow (very hard to "fix" an error in a site if you weren't responsible for boxing all the fuses - really depends on how well the site was built along the fb guidelines) 3) Hard to re-train if you're not a programmer - we've got 8 CF developers world-wide working for us and only two of them use FB - both of these come from hard-core programming backgrounds, others have tried and given up - FB is a lifestyle choice and not just for Christmas! Hal Helms is the daddy, anything written by him is groovy - but I think there may be two FB camps now J -Original Message- From: Thane Sherrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: Fusebox pros and cons I've never used fusebox, so I'm wondering if it is worth taking the time to learn. What are the advantages or disadvantages to it? Are there any good books/webpages on learning it? What additional stuff do I need on my server to be able to use it? Thanks, T __ Why Share? Dedicated Win 2000 Server · PIII 800 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HD / 20 GB MO/XFER Instant Activation · $99/Month · Free Setup http://www.pennyhost.com/redirect.cfm?adcode=coldfusionc FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
