Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
> If you want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. I think this comment is out of date. Certainly, early J had limited gui facilities compared with APLs, but at least since J5, J has gui support that is perfectly adequate for typical desktop applications. Moreover if you really want something fancier, then you can write the gui in another toolkit such as Qt or Electron and call J under the covers. Jqt is itself written in Qt and calls J this way. Apart from the gui, I find the J IDE to be much more productive than any of APLs, which to me always seem rather clunky. On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:15 AM Devon McCormick wrote: > If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you > want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
You might want to consider how quickly the implementation of APL/360 got out of the box from the first APL conference in 1969—it was widely used on an in-house mainframe at the insurance company where I worked by 1974—people could begin using it the same day they logged in. It spread all over the world including Russia despite Regan suspending Soviet-American trade and scientific exchange. Perhaps someone has an estimate of the users and clients of APL businesses such as IBM. IPSharp, STSC, Dyalog… It seems to me despite the promise of an even more powerful language the uptake of J in the last 30 has been not so great—one might blame marketing but APL was not marketed so much as demanded. There is a different learning curve in part from the less relatable ascii characters instead of the elegant APL notation, in part the need to master a more complex composition.The language has extended well beyond primitives to include what might rather be a code library. Obviously it can be learned as attested by many members of this forum. > On Oct 6, 2021, at 6:07 AM, Ian Clark wrote: > > joseph turco writes: >> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic exercise > (you can say, 'for fun') > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > rational argument is irrelevant. > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > Which to try first? Look at https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > to get a quick comparison of both. > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. One > makes money, the other doesn't. > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. The > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. > That tells you something too. > > The singer, not the song? > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal mining > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never will. > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of my > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But coding > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that wasn't > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I was. > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the viola, > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the most > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is elegant, > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds because > of its trade connections. > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > (a) because it's fun? > (b) because it isn't? > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. When I > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid jobs. > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, javascript, > Python…) > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco wrote: > >> Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, >> >> I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is not my >> intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an inexperienced >> programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array language >> purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know this is a >> J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any reason I >> should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using ASCII >> characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that wrong or >> if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not focusing on >> J and instead on APL? >> -- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.js
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
Devon says in 2 sentences what took me thirty. That's being terse. (I've been writing far too much Swift recently.) On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 18:15, Devon McCormick wrote: > If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you > want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > entertaining. > > > > Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will > > continue to gain in status (and rarity). > > > > > > On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller wrote: > > > > > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > entertaining. > > > > > > Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical > > > sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer > > > games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players > > > can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of > > > others -- often with better graphics)). > > > > > > Food for thought? > > > > > > -- > > > Raul > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark > wrote: > > > > > > > > joseph turco writes: > > > > > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic > > exercise > > > > (you can say, 'for fun') > > > > > > > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > > > > > > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > > > > rational argument is irrelevant. > > > > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > > > > > > > Which to try first? Look at > > > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > > > > to get a quick comparison of both. > > > > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > > > > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > > > > > > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. > > One > > > > makes money, the other doesn't. > > > > > > > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > > > > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual > Basic. > > > The > > > > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more > fun. > > > > That tells you something too. > > > > > > > > The singer, not the song? > > > > > > > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal > > > mining > > > > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > > > > > > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never > > will. > > > > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most > of > > my > > > > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > > > > > > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > > > > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But > > > coding > > > > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone > who > > > > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that > > wasn't > > > > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I > > was. > > > > > > > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > > > > > > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > > > > > > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the > > viola, > > > > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or > the > > > most > > > > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > > > > > > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is > > > elegant, > > > > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds > > because > > > > of its trade connections. > > > > > > > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > > > > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > > > > > > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > > > > (a) because it's fun? > > > > (b) because it isn't? > > > > > > > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. > > When I > > > > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those > arcane > > > > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid > > jobs. > > > > > > > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being > too > > > > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, > > > javascript, > > > > Python…) > > > > > > > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > > > > > > > > > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is > > not > > > my > > > > > intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an > > > inexperienced > > > > > programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array > > > language > > > > > purely as an academ
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
Welcome back Joseph ;) If you want a low impact way to keep up with many of the array languages, the J/APL/BQN/K/Q/functional/combinatory comparison is something that occurs frequently on the Array Cast podcast that Adam Brudzewsky, Stephen Taylor, Conor Hoekstra and Richard Park and I produce. https://www.arraycast.com/episodes Cheers and enjoy the journey, bob > On Oct 6, 2021, at 14:20, joseph turco wrote: > > So I played around more with APL and I actually am not a big fan of how > variables and functions are managed. I prefer the way J does things with > the built-in editor. I guess its J for me! > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 3:04 PM joseph turco > wrote: > >> Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of Ward's. i >> wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree i that the >> conventions that J uses are more palatable than what the standard >> nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill revisit J and see >> which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL. >> >> regards, >> >> Joseph Turco >> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky >> wrote: >> >>> BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of >>> SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, >>> etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at >>> Dyalog. >>> >>> They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., >>> verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, >>> using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, >>> because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable >>> with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, >>> currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be >>> Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or >>> two, >>> including a pop quiz at the end. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: Hey all, thanks for the responses. After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones >>> time. regards, Joseph Turco On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick >>> wrote: > If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you > want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark >>> wrote: > >>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > entertaining. >> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will >> continue to gain in status (and rarity). >> >> >> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller >>> wrote: >> >>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > entertaining. >>> Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical >>> sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer >>> games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players >>> can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of >>> others -- often with better graphics)). >>> >>> Food for thought? >>> >>> -- >>> Raul >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark > wrote: joseph turco writes: > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic >> exercise (you can say, 'for fun') Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that rational argument is irrelevant. Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. Which to try first? Look at >>> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook to get a quick comparison of both. Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than vice-versa. That tells you something. Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other >>> doesn't. >> One makes money, the other doesn't. I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual > Basic. >>> The choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more > fun. That tells you something too. The singer, not the song? How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal >>> mining town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never >> will. But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
So I played around more with APL and I actually am not a big fan of how variables and functions are managed. I prefer the way J does things with the built-in editor. I guess its J for me! On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 3:04 PM joseph turco wrote: > Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of Ward's. i > wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree i that the > conventions that J uses are more palatable than what the standard > nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill revisit J and see > which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL. > > regards, > > Joseph Turco > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky > wrote: > >> BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of >> SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, >> etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at >> Dyalog. >> >> They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., >> verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, >> using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, >> because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable >> with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, >> currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be >> Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or >> two, >> including a pop quiz at the end. >> >> Bob >> >> On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: >> > Hey all, thanks for the responses. >> > >> > After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the >> > representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. >> > I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones >> time. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Joseph Turco >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick >> wrote: >> > >> >> If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you >> >> want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark >> wrote: >> >> >> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining >> >> entertaining. >> >>> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will >> >>> continue to gain in status (and rarity). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller >> wrote: >> >>> >> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining >> >> entertaining. >> Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical >> sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer >> games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players >> can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of >> others -- often with better graphics)). >> >> Food for thought? >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark >> >> wrote: >> > joseph turco writes: >> >> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic >> >>> exercise >> > (you can say, 'for fun') >> > >> > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. >> > >> > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that >> > rational argument is irrelevant. >> > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. >> > >> > Which to try first? Look at >> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook >> > to get a quick comparison of both. >> > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than >> > vice-versa. That tells you something. >> > >> > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other >> doesn't. >> >>> One >> > makes money, the other doesn't. >> > >> > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an >> > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual >> >> Basic. >> The >> > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more >> >> fun. >> > That tells you something too. >> > >> > The singer, not the song? >> > >> > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal >> mining >> > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. >> > >> > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never >> >>> will. >> > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most >> >> of >> >>> my >> > discretionary time. That tells you something else. >> > >> > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… >> > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But >> coding >> > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone >> >> who >> > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that >> >>> wasn't >> > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of Ward's. i wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree i that the conventions that J uses are more palatable than what the standard nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill revisit J and see which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL. regards, Joseph Turco On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky wrote: > BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of > SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, > etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at Dyalog. > > They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., > verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, > using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, > because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable > with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, > currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be > Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or > two, > including a pop quiz at the end. > > Bob > > On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: > > Hey all, thanks for the responses. > > > > After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the > > representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. > > I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones time. > > > > regards, > > > > Joseph Turco > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick > wrote: > > > >> If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you > >> want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark wrote: > >> > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > >> entertaining. > >>> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will > >>> continue to gain in status (and rarity). > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller > wrote: > >>> > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > >> entertaining. > Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical > sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer > games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players > can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of > others -- often with better graphics)). > > Food for thought? > > -- > Raul > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark > >> wrote: > > joseph turco writes: > >> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic > >>> exercise > > (you can say, 'for fun') > > > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > > rational argument is irrelevant. > > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > > > Which to try first? Look at > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > > to get a quick comparison of both. > > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. > >>> One > > makes money, the other doesn't. > > > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual > >> Basic. > The > > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more > >> fun. > > That tells you something too. > > > > The singer, not the song? > > > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal > mining > > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never > >>> will. > > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most > >> of > >>> my > > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But > coding > > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone > >> who > > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that > >>> wasn't > > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I > >>> was. > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the > >>> viola, > > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or > >> the > most > > fun – you'll end up playing the vio
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at Dyalog. They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or two, including a pop quiz at the end. Bob On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: Hey all, thanks for the responses. After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones time. regards, Joseph Turco On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick wrote: If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark wrote: For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will continue to gain in status (and rarity). On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller wrote: For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of others -- often with better graphics)). Food for thought? -- Raul On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark wrote: joseph turco writes: I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun') Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that rational argument is irrelevant. Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. Which to try first? Look at https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook to get a quick comparison of both. Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than vice-versa. That tells you something. Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. One makes money, the other doesn't. I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. The choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. That tells you something too. The singer, not the song? How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal mining town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never will. But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of my discretionary time. That tells you something else. What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But coding a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that wasn't Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I was. But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! So… APL or J? Things to consider: [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the viola, no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the most fun – you'll end up playing the viola. [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is elegant, appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds because of its trade connections. [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? (a) because it's fun? (b) because it isn't? Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. When I left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid jobs. Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, javascript, Python…) When the fun stops: stop. On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco wrote: Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is not my intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J.
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
Hey all, thanks for the responses. After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones time. regards, Joseph Turco On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick wrote: > If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you > want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > entertaining. > > > > Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will > > continue to gain in status (and rarity). > > > > > > On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller wrote: > > > > > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > entertaining. > > > > > > Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical > > > sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer > > > games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players > > > can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of > > > others -- often with better graphics)). > > > > > > Food for thought? > > > > > > -- > > > Raul > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark > wrote: > > > > > > > > joseph turco writes: > > > > > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic > > exercise > > > > (you can say, 'for fun') > > > > > > > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > > > > > > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > > > > rational argument is irrelevant. > > > > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > > > > > > > Which to try first? Look at > > > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > > > > to get a quick comparison of both. > > > > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > > > > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > > > > > > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. > > One > > > > makes money, the other doesn't. > > > > > > > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > > > > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual > Basic. > > > The > > > > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more > fun. > > > > That tells you something too. > > > > > > > > The singer, not the song? > > > > > > > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal > > > mining > > > > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > > > > > > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never > > will. > > > > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most > of > > my > > > > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > > > > > > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > > > > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But > > > coding > > > > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone > who > > > > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that > > wasn't > > > > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I > > was. > > > > > > > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > > > > > > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > > > > > > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the > > viola, > > > > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or > the > > > most > > > > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > > > > > > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is > > > elegant, > > > > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds > > because > > > > of its trade connections. > > > > > > > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > > > > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > > > > > > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > > > > (a) because it's fun? > > > > (b) because it isn't? > > > > > > > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. > > When I > > > > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those > arcane > > > > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid > > jobs. > > > > > > > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being > too > > > > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, > > > javascript, > > > > Python…) > > > > > > > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > > > > > > > > > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is > > not > > > my > > > > > intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. > > Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will > continue to gain in status (and rarity). > > > On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller wrote: > > > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. > > > > Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical > > sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer > > games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players > > can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of > > others -- often with better graphics)). > > > > Food for thought? > > > > -- > > Raul > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > > > > > joseph turco writes: > > > > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic > exercise > > > (you can say, 'for fun') > > > > > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > > > > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > > > rational argument is irrelevant. > > > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > > > > > Which to try first? Look at > > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > > > to get a quick comparison of both. > > > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > > > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > > > > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. > One > > > makes money, the other doesn't. > > > > > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > > > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. > > The > > > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. > > > That tells you something too. > > > > > > The singer, not the song? > > > > > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal > > mining > > > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > > > > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never > will. > > > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of > my > > > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > > > > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > > > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But > > coding > > > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who > > > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that > wasn't > > > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I > was. > > > > > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > > > > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > > > > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the > viola, > > > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the > > most > > > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > > > > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is > > elegant, > > > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds > because > > > of its trade connections. > > > > > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > > > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > > > > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > > > (a) because it's fun? > > > (b) because it isn't? > > > > > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. > When I > > > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane > > > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid > jobs. > > > > > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too > > > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, > > javascript, > > > Python…) > > > > > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > > > > > > > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is > not > > my > > > > intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an > > inexperienced > > > > programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array > > language > > > > purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know this > > is a > > > > J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any reason > I > > > > should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using > ASCII > > > > characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that > > wrong or > > > > if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not > > focusing on > > > > J and instead on APL? > > > > >
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will continue to gain in status (and rarity). On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller wrote: > For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. > > Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical > sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer > games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players > can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of > others -- often with better graphics)). > > Food for thought? > > -- > Raul > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > > > joseph turco writes: > > > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic exercise > > (you can say, 'for fun') > > > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > > rational argument is irrelevant. > > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > > > Which to try first? Look at > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > > to get a quick comparison of both. > > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. One > > makes money, the other doesn't. > > > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. > The > > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. > > That tells you something too. > > > > The singer, not the song? > > > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal > mining > > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never will. > > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of my > > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But > coding > > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who > > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that wasn't > > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I was. > > > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the viola, > > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the > most > > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is > elegant, > > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds because > > of its trade connections. > > > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > > (a) because it's fun? > > (b) because it isn't? > > > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. When I > > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane > > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid jobs. > > > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too > > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, > javascript, > > Python…) > > > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco > wrote: > > > > > Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > > > > > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is not > my > > > intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an > inexperienced > > > programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array > language > > > purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know this > is a > > > J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any reason I > > > should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using ASCII > > > characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that > wrong or > > > if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not > focusing on > > > J and instead on APL? > > > -- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining entertaining. Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of others -- often with better graphics)). Food for thought? -- Raul On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > joseph turco writes: > > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic exercise > (you can say, 'for fun') > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > rational argument is irrelevant. > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > Which to try first? Look at https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > to get a quick comparison of both. > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. One > makes money, the other doesn't. > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. The > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. > That tells you something too. > > The singer, not the song? > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal mining > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never will. > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of my > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But coding > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that wasn't > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I was. > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the viola, > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the most > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is elegant, > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds because > of its trade connections. > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > (a) because it's fun? > (b) because it isn't? > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. When I > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid jobs. > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, javascript, > Python…) > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco wrote: > > > Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > > > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is not my > > intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an inexperienced > > programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array language > > purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know this is a > > J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any reason I > > should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using ASCII > > characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that wrong or > > if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not focusing on > > J and instead on APL? > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
joseph turco writes: > I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun') Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that rational argument is irrelevant. Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. Which to try first? Look at https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook to get a quick comparison of both. Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than vice-versa. That tells you something. Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. One makes money, the other doesn't. I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. The choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. That tells you something too. The singer, not the song? How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal mining town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never will. But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of my discretionary time. That tells you something else. What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But coding a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that wasn't Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I was. But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! So… APL or J? Things to consider: [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the viola, no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the most fun – you'll end up playing the viola. [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is elegant, appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds because of its trade connections. [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? (a) because it's fun? (b) because it isn't? Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. When I left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid jobs. Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, javascript, Python…) When the fun stops: stop. On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco wrote: > Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is not my > intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an inexperienced > programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array language > purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know this is a > J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any reason I > should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using ASCII > characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that wrong or > if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not focusing on > J and instead on APL? > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jchat] Should I learn APL or J?
"why not both?" On the long run, yes, it is very likely each of the two has its strong and weaker points. However, to start with, I would not embark on both at the same time, because there are quite some differences that might confuse you and distract from actually learning the core, and lead to frustration. It's a bit like Italian and Spanish: learn both, and you could start mixing up concepts (been there, done that). For instance: - trains of two isolated verbs are interpreted differently in J and Dyalog: J (u v) y <-> y u v y and x (u v) y <-> x u v y Dyalog (u v) y <-> u v y and x (u v) y <-> u x v y (I hope I got that correct) - J only combines strings of numbers into a vector, while Dyalog does that for any juxtaposed value, including variable names, leading to nested vectors (sort of implicitly boxing of the juxtaposed values) - many primitives are packed differently into the glyphs, e.g. in Dyalog, IIRC, / is used as verb (replicate) and as an operator (reduce) (see https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Function-operator_overloading), while in J verbs, adverbs and conjunctions don't change to other types based on their context in an expression; Dyadic cases of scan (\) and reduce (/) in Dyalog do other things than in J,… - Is the index origin still 1 by default in Dyalog ? If so, I'd advise setting it to 0 to keep mental sanity. Anyway, of course, it's personal, and it might also be fun to explore the differences… Jan-Pieter On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 02:49 Raul Miller wrote: > J and Dyalog APL have some interesting ties. > > Of course, Ken Iverson invented both languages. > > But, also, Roger Hui (the primary implementer of J) has moved over to > Dyalog and has been using his experience here to help out over there. > > Anyways... this is definitely an area where you might want to ask: why not > both? > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 6:27 PM Jan-Pieter Jacobs > wrote: > > > > Hi Joseph > > I have to say I don't know APL very thoroughly, but here are some things > I > > like J for that APL doesn't have (someone please correct me if I'm > wrong): > > > > - It's open source and free (Dyalog isn't, although there are open source > > GNU APL and NARS2000). > > - It works even on your phone (at least mine, android and ios/ipad). This > > combined with a nice keyboard (my favourite is messagEase) is bliss for > > impressing friends (I guess this depends on your friends :p). > > - There's very powerful tools for learning I haven't heard of in APL > > contexts: the addons debug/dissect, trace, tte, the interactive labs. > > - It has a very powerful system of automatic inverses (called obverses, > > since they are not all 100% inverses), for instance, p: y finds the y'th > > prime. p: inv y finds the index number of prime y (inv being a standard > > library adverb defined as inv=: ^:_1). This combines well with the under > > conjunction &. . For instance, ever wondered what first 10 primes after > 1e6 > > are?: ((i.10)+])&.(p:inv) 1e6 will tell you. You can as well assign them > > using the obverse conjunction :. to overwrite one or define a new one, > > based on your use case. > > - There's a very cool addon for doing calculus on J functions: > derivatives > > (also partial), integrals,… : math/calculus. > > - There's many more built-in primitives in J to pick from, like p: and q: > > for primes and prime factoring, p. and p.. for polynomial and polynomial > > derivative, C. and A. for handling permutations, and so on. This comes in > > handy when doing e.g. code-golf, or participating in adventofcode. That's > > actually how I ended up learning J. > > - If you're looking for an "academic" challenge, I guess you will find > the > > tacit trains that were reintroduced in j903-beta u and later quite fun. I > > wouldn't jump to them at the beginning though, might be to confusing and > > you can perfectly do without. > > > > I'll leave the advantages of APL to people that actually use the > language. > > > > Have fun exploring! > > > > Jan-Pieter > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 23:35 joseph turco > wrote: > > > > > phew, that's good then! > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 5:18 PM Pierpaolo Bernardi > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:11 PM joseph turco < > italian.pepe...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is > not > > > my > > > > > intentions. > > > > > > > > Don't worry about this. APL and J are friends, not enemies. > > > > > -- > > > > For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > > > -- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >
