Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Björn Helgason]

asatru.is

lots of powerful operators with well defined roles and rules.

never tells you what to do or not to do.

only tells you what happens if you do.

On 10 Mar 2018 20:08, "Ian Clark" <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:

If all programming language communities are religions, then might J be
classified as a heresy?

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Jo van Schalkwyk <jvanschalk...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Heh. All programming language communities are indistinguishable from
> religions. It's a human thing. My 2c, Jo.
>
> On 9 March 2018 at 08:40, R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> > Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J
is
> > a religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics
> with
> > a religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...).
> > Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel (
> > http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and
> > like real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and
the
> > second has changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together with
> > the current Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the
> Holy
> > Spirit and the Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a Pope,
> > and who better than Henry Rich could play that role? He even
> > single-handedly extended and optimised the religion, not to mention the
> > Dissect he created, which teaches you to recognize your sins. Recently,
> the
> > Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, more modern, the bible for
> > dummies.
> > The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and
> the
> > Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests. However,
> we
> > don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f.
> > https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs,
> > competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the
> > heathens. Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and
> you
> > may give yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope
> > should give this issue some attention.
> >
> > Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept
> new
> > members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to help
> > the newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old
> > religious saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here
> as "
> > many are challenged, but few succeed".
> > But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you
> > experience heaven.
> > However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is
> > try to convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately
> > mostly in vain. And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which
> > appears to be even harder.
> > Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but
> above
> > all, they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new
> faith.
> > So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now?
> > Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm afraid
> I
> > cannot help you.
> >
> >
> > R.E Boss
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of james
> > > faure
> > > Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40
> > > To: c...@jsoftware.com
> > > Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > >
> > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current
course,
> > it will be
> > > quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> (correct
> > > me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first
> hand
> > > experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J
> > and in fact
> > > have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe
> they
> > are
> > > convinced of it's power.
> > >
> > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
> > > international.epitech.eu
> > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to
Epitech
> > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> > > solidified its reputation ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious intere

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jo van Schalkwyk]

Heresy indeed. Both to other religions---erm, programming languages---and
of course to APL devotees, to whom it is crystal clear that J strays from
the one true path. Let's not even talk about K, the infidels :)  Jo.

On 11 March 2018 at 09:08, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If all programming language communities are religions, then might J be
> classified as a heresy?
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Jo van Schalkwyk <jvanschalk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Heh. All programming language communities are indistinguishable from
> > religions. It's a human thing. My 2c, Jo.
> >
> > On 9 March 2018 at 08:40, R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J
> is
> > > a religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics
> > with
> > > a religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...).
> > > Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel (
> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and
> > > like real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and
> the
> > > second has changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together
> with
> > > the current Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the
> > Holy
> > > Spirit and the Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a
> Pope,
> > > and who better than Henry Rich could play that role? He even
> > > single-handedly extended and optimised the religion, not to mention the
> > > Dissect he created, which teaches you to recognize your sins. Recently,
> > the
> > > Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, more modern, the bible for
> > > dummies.
> > > The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and
> > the
> > > Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests.
> However,
> > we
> > > don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f.
> > > https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs,
> > > competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the
> > > heathens. Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and
> > you
> > > may give yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope
> > > should give this issue some attention.
> > >
> > > Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept
> > new
> > > members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to
> help
> > > the newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old
> > > religious saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here
> > as "
> > > many are challenged, but few succeed".
> > > But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you
> > > experience heaven.
> > > However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is
> > > try to convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately
> > > mostly in vain. And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which
> > > appears to be even harder.
> > > Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but
> > above
> > > all, they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new
> > faith.
> > > So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now?
> > > Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm
> afraid
> > I
> > > cannot help you.
> > >
> > >
> > > R.E Boss
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of james
> > > > faure
> > > > Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40
> > > > To: c...@jsoftware.com
> > > > Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > > >
> > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current
> course,
> > > it will be
> > > > quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> > (correct
> > > > me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first
> > hand
> > > > experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J
> > > and in fact
> > > > have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe
> > they
> > > are
> &

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

If all programming language communities are religions, then might J be
classified as a heresy?

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Jo van Schalkwyk <jvanschalk...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Heh. All programming language communities are indistinguishable from
> religions. It's a human thing. My 2c, Jo.
>
> On 9 March 2018 at 08:40, R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> > Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J is
> > a religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics
> with
> > a religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...).
> > Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel (
> > http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and
> > like real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and the
> > second has changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together with
> > the current Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the
> Holy
> > Spirit and the Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a Pope,
> > and who better than Henry Rich could play that role? He even
> > single-handedly extended and optimised the religion, not to mention the
> > Dissect he created, which teaches you to recognize your sins. Recently,
> the
> > Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, more modern, the bible for
> > dummies.
> > The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and
> the
> > Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests. However,
> we
> > don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f.
> > https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs,
> > competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the
> > heathens. Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and
> you
> > may give yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope
> > should give this issue some attention.
> >
> > Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept
> new
> > members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to help
> > the newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old
> > religious saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here
> as "
> > many are challenged, but few succeed".
> > But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you
> > experience heaven.
> > However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is
> > try to convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately
> > mostly in vain. And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which
> > appears to be even harder.
> > Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but
> above
> > all, they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new
> faith.
> > So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now?
> > Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm afraid
> I
> > cannot help you.
> >
> >
> > R.E Boss
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of james
> > > faure
> > > Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40
> > > To: c...@jsoftware.com
> > > Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > >
> > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course,
> > it will be
> > > quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> (correct
> > > me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first
> hand
> > > experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J
> > and in fact
> > > have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe
> they
> > are
> > > convinced of it's power.
> > >
> > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
> > > international.epitech.eu
> > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> > > solidified its reputation ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest
> in
> > J, I
> > > will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the
> > hope that
> > > it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time
> > that I
> &g

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jo van Schalkwyk]

Heh. All programming language communities are indistinguishable from
religions. It's a human thing. My 2c, Jo.

On 9 March 2018 at 08:40, R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> wrote:

> Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J is
> a religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics with
> a religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...).
> Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel (
> http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and
> like real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and the
> second has changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together with
> the current Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the Holy
> Spirit and the Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a Pope,
> and who better than Henry Rich could play that role? He even
> single-handedly extended and optimised the religion, not to mention the
> Dissect he created, which teaches you to recognize your sins. Recently, the
> Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, more modern, the bible for
> dummies.
> The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and the
> Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests. However, we
> don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f.
> https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs,
> competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the
> heathens. Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and you
> may give yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope
> should give this issue some attention.
>
> Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept new
> members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to help
> the newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old
> religious saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here as "
> many are challenged, but few succeed".
> But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you
> experience heaven.
> However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is
> try to convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately
> mostly in vain. And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which
> appears to be even harder.
> Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but above
> all, they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new faith.
> So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now?
> Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm afraid I
> cannot help you.
>
>
> R.E Boss
>
>
> > -Original Message-----
> > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of james
> > faure
> > Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40
> > To: c...@jsoftware.com
> > Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> >
> > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course,
> it will be
> > quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct
> > me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first hand
> > experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J
> and in fact
> > have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they
> are
> > convinced of it's power.
> >
> > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
> > international.epitech.eu
> > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> > solidified its reputation ...
> >
> >
> >
> > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> J, I
> > will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the
> hope that
> > it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time
> that I
> > heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about
> > whether the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable
> > to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I
> am
> > here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time
> to
> > time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth
> learning.
> > Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main place
> where
> > people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those conditions being
> > met, If I learned J, it is only because I am b

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[R.E. Boss]

Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J is a 
religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics with a 
religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...). 
Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel 
(http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and like 
real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and the second has 
changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together with the current 
Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the Holy Spirit and the 
Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a Pope, and who better than 
Henry Rich could play that role? He even single-handedly extended and optimised 
the religion, not to mention the Dissect he created, which teaches you to 
recognize your sins. Recently, the Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, 
more modern, the bible for dummies. 
The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and the 
Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests. However, we 
don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f. 
https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs, 
competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the heathens. 
Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and you may give 
yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope should give this 
issue some attention.

Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept new 
members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to help the 
newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old religious 
saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here as " many are 
challenged, but few succeed".
But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you experience 
heaven.
However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is try to 
convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately mostly in vain. 
And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which appears to be even harder.
Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but above all, 
they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new faith.
So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now?
Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm afraid I 
cannot help you.


R.E Boss


> -Original Message-
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of james
> faure
> Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40
> To: c...@jsoftware.com
> Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> 
> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it 
> will be
> quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct
> me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first hand
> experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J and in 
> fact
> have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are
> convinced of it's power.
> 
> Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> solidified its reputation ...
> 
> 
> 
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, I
> will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope 
> that
> it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time that I
> heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about
> whether the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable
> to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am
> here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time to
> time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth 
> learning.
> Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main place where
> people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those conditions being
> met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely determined, and
> was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare time. I have shown
> J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person who uses it, most
> of those people never made it past the first few steps. The learning curve
> has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of this decade. As an
> aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, so please
> keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for help on J's behalf.
> Also please do not think me arrogant because of 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Don Guinn]

Defining fit as:
   fit=:2 : '(u f.)!.n'
works.

1 2 laminate fit 10]3 4 5

1 2 10

3 4 5


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Raul Miller  wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 7:14 PM, Ian Clark  wrote:
> > But I was writing tongue-in-cheek when I suggested Foreigns. Maybe the J
> > way of doing it is to stick a new (!.)-option in there somewhere, to
> warn J
> > not to optimize.
>
> If you want to prevent the optimization, break the pattern.
>
> Ways that i believe currently work (though I've not tested all of this
> yet against the newest interpreters) include naming part of the
> critical phrase, adding a redundant rank specification on a verb in
> the phrase, altering the sequence with an identity function, and
> creating an intermediate result to separate parts of the phrase.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> --
> Raul
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 7:14 PM, Ian Clark  wrote:
> But I was writing tongue-in-cheek when I suggested Foreigns. Maybe the J
> way of doing it is to stick a new (!.)-option in there somewhere, to warn J
> not to optimize.

If you want to prevent the optimization, break the pattern.

Ways that i believe currently work (though I've not tested all of this
yet against the newest interpreters) include naming part of the
critical phrase, adding a redundant rank specification on a verb in
the phrase, altering the sequence with an identity function, and
creating an intermediate result to separate parts of the phrase.

I hope this helps,

-- 
Raul
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

I wrote,

>  Also, trying to name $: (e.g., as selfreference) is hopeless.

I have noted this, at least once, many years ago.  Perhaps I should
elaborate.  All that,

selfreference=: $:

does is to produce a named recursive verb which would cause a stack error
when any argument(s) is provided.  This would not help a "beginner" and it
should be removed from the list of cover words.




On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 10:55 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yet,
>
>1 2(,: fit 10)3 4 5
> 1 2 10
> 3 4  5
>
> works.  That is strange, to say the least.
>
> Also, trying to name $: (e.g., as selfreference) is hopeless.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Don Guinn  wrote:
>
>> Well, almost all names work. But fit does not.
>>
>> 1 2(,:!.10)3 4 5
>>
>> 1 2 10
>>
>> 3 4 5
>>
>> 1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5
>>
>> |domain error: fit
>>
>> | 1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5
>>
>> Also, for CamelCase, comment out line 253 in primitives.ijs .
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 12:58 PM, Brian Schott 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Ian,
>> >
>> > I like your ideas regarding general/primitives . I just did a load of
>> the
>> > addon and was surprised that they are lowercase. My memory suggested
>> they
>> > were uppercase initial letters like the Vocabulary. But I never use
>> them,
>> > so take what I say with that in mind. I was please to see that in jqt
>> an F1
>> > tap when the cursor is near the primitive, or near the spelled-out
>> > primitive, took me to the Vocabulary page. I was expecting to be
>> delivered
>> > to the Dictionary page, though. Maybe that's something I have not
>> > configured properly on my Mac. Another disappointment on my Mac was that
>> > shift+F1 did not take me to NuVoc (again, maybe a config issue).
>> >
>> > And, all of F1 access leaves out jconsole and jhs as far as I can tell.
>> So,
>> > I suspect new users are steered to jqt.
>> >
>> > I personally lean toward jconsole in much of my J use, btw.
>> >
>> >JVERSION
>> > Engine: j806/j64/darwin
>> > Release: commercial/2017-11-06T10:20:33
>> > Library: 8.06.09
>> > Qt IDE: 1.6.2/5.6.3
>> > Platform: Darwin 64
>> > Installer: J806 install
>> > InstallPath: /users/brian/j64-806
>> > Contact: www.jsoftware.com
>> > --
>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> >
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>
>
>
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

ave "optimization" like houses have
> plumbing.
> > Period. But to people shopping for a new and better language, either to
> > learn themselves or to recruit / train their development teams in, I'd
> say
> > 6 is the most important issue of all where J is concerned.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:48 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Raul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining
> the
> > > alternative ?
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul
> > Miller
> > > <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
> > > > To: Chat forum
> > > > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > > >
> > > > Why do you think optimizations are bad?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Raul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> I mean Special combination: http://code.jsoftware.com/
> > wiki/Vocabulary/
> > > SpecialCombinations
> > > >>
> > > >> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.
> > > com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
> > > >> code.jsoftware.com
> > > >> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not
> > > knowing what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random
> > > values in a 1000 by 1000 ...
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian
> > > Schott <schott.br...@gmail.com>
> > > >> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
> > > >> To: Chat forum
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > > >>
> > > >> I think it means stop_condition.
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Again, I ask, in
> > > >>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
> > > >>> what is "SC based"?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >> 
> > --
> > > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > forums.htm
> > > >> 
> > --
> > > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > forums.htm
> > > > 
> --
> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> forums.htm
> > > > 
> --
> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> forums.htm
> > > --
> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> > >
> > --
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> >
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

>My logic -- it wouldn't be a SC if it was a one-off, uncommon way of doing
things.

Mine too – as a coder. The SCs gurgle away behind the walls like the
plumbing, keeping things running sweetly.

But I spend a lot of time worrying about the "image" of J to the
unconverted. It has to govern how you write instructional material.

I remember when Pascal was being promoted as the dernier-cri in
universities, and all the old Fortran hacks were compelled to attend Pascal
classes and learn about "structured programming". The tutor told me once
that as soon as the grunts knew there was a GOTO, they all switched off.

No wonder Dijkstra wrote: "GOTO considered harmful". It certainly was to
the uptake of Pascal!

I see much the same happening to J over modifiers / SCs vs explicit
definition / loops.


>…knowing that SCs exist make me feel more confident about the language --
that is has been 'battle tested'

Do you see the SCs as jewels in the crown of J – or battle scars?

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 10:49 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's my thoughts on the questions:
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Concerning the page:
> > http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
> >
> > The dust kicked up when horns are locked is obscuring for me some
> important
> > pragmatic questions, to which I personally would like to know the
> answers.
> > Let me break them down as follows:
> >
> > 1. Why is it good for anyone but a speed-freak to know about J's hidden
> > speedups?
> >
> >
> Besides performance, special combinations let a person know what is a
> common "pattern" or idiom in J code. My logic -- it wouldn't be a SC if it
> was a one-off, uncommon way of doing things.
>
>
> > 2. Ditto for people starting out learning to code seriously in J?
> >
> >
> In addition to above, knowing that SCs exist make me feel more confident
> about the language -- that is has been 'battle tested'
>
>
>
> > 3. Ditto for people who are just curious about J?
> >
>
> I think my answer still applies
>
>
> >
> > 4. Why is it good to have an exhaustive reference to J's hidden speedups
> in
> > NuVoc, of all places (the beginner's way-into the J world)?
> >
>
>
> Same as above -- good to know the common patterns
>
> >
> > 5. How well hidden are J's "hidden" speedups?
> > Is a beginner so likely to fall foul of them that a good knowledge of
> them
> > is needed right from Day 1?
> > What does this say to the J-curious about the design of the language?
> >
> >
> I don't think a beginner needs to know them from day 1. It is important for
> J to have "batteries included" good performance... or performance that
> largely "just works". Not necessarily winning the benchmark competitions,
> but enough to give a good experience
>
>
>
> > 6. Why does J need speedups at all, hidden or otherwise?
> > If it does, why bother to hide them? Why not just have libraries of
> faster
> > alternatives to common idioms?
> > Package them as Foreigns if we want to persist in avoiding expressive
> > reserved names.
> >
>
> I think the same as above... If we use the idea of notation as a tool of
> thought... simple notation that is optimized for performance seems to be a
> good thing -- to me at least. I'd rather learn the notation instead of a
> bunch of obscure foreigns (323!:23) or the slew of names
>
> Good questions!
>
>
>
> >
> > Does J need hidden speedups because a central feature of J (subtle
> > bolting-together of array-savvy functions to make new ones) denies you
> the
> > scope to code efficiently, which is inherent in looping scalar languages?
> > This surely must be uppermost in the minds of C++ programmers (and
> others)
> > as they approach J.
> >
> > For those of us who've been writing J for decades, question 6 will seem
> > like a non-issue. Languages have "optimization" like houses have
> plumbing.
> > Period. But to people shopping for a new and better language, either to
> > learn themselves or to recruit / train their development teams in, I'd
> say
> > 6 is the most important issue of all where J is concerned.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:48 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Raul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

Right, as you implied, the issue is not that fit (or Fit) is a cover word
but that !. does not accept covered (named primitives).  I would suggest to
leave fit and make the observation that sometimes uncovering the words
might be necessary or advisable (e.g., to take advantage of special code,
etc.),

   1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5
|domain error: fit
|   1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5

   1 2(laminate fix fit 10)3 4 5
1 2 10
3 4  5

The role of fix for uncovering (recursively) cover words should be
emphasized anyway, in my opinion.


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My concern was if scripts were converted that included fit would cause
> errors in execution.
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Fraser, for clarifying its purpose.
> >
> > > The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of
> > secondaries.
> >
> > Working on a set of NuVoc-compatible cover verbs, I've changed my mind
> and
> > now I agree with you.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM, Fraser Jackson <
> fraser.jack...@xtra.co.nz>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is good to see renewed interest in using the 'primitives' script.
> Its
> > > original purpose was to enable use of J in teaching environments where
> > the
> > > use of symbols instead of words for function names added difficulty.
> > >
> > > Camel Case was an option, but an alternative way of treating it would
> be
> > > appropriate.  It would be easy to modify the script to erase the names
> > > defined and replace them with CamelCase ones.
> > >
> > > For a user who wants to use names for specific alternative uses of the
> > > primitives,  appropriate names are included but all of the definitions
> > are
> > > linked directly to replacement by the primitive, so there is a great
> deal
> > > of redundancy.  There is no attempt to enforce valency so some strange
> > > verbal expressions execute .  It is essential for students to learn
> about
> > > valency and order of execution right at the beginning of using J.  This
> > > approach was adopted in the hope that as students advanced they would
> > learn
> > > the primitives, their brevity and the relationships between most
> monadic
> > > and dyadic uses.
> > >
> > > The 'primitives' script was not revised when NuVoc was introduced, but
> it
> > > would be good to have a careful consideration of ways of matching the
> > > names.  They should be kept as brief as possible and not extend to
> > phrases.
> > >
> > > The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of
> > > secondaries.  Their place is much better in scripts for a specific
> > purpose
> > > or field of application.
> > >
> > > Fraser
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of Ian Clark
> > > Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018 6:05 PM
> > > To: c...@jsoftware.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > >
> > > I suggest Fit isn't given a cover word of its own, but used to define
> new
> > > "secondaries" to match www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc exactly.
> > > Also (maybe as an option?) extra code is inserted to enforce valency.
> > > Examples:
> > >
> > >
> > >Reverse=: |. : [:
> > >
> > >Rotate=: [: : |.
> > >
> > >Shift=: |.!._
> > >
> > >ShiftRight1=:_1
> > >
> > >Reverse i.6
> > >
> > > 5 4 3 2 1 0
> > >
> > >2 Rotate i.6
> > >
> > > 2 3 4 5 0 1
> > >
> > >2 Shift i.6
> > >
> > > 2 3 4 5 _ _
> > >
> > >ShiftRight1 i.6
> > >
> > > _ 0 1 2 3 4
> > >
> > >
> > > I also suggest that if any "beginner" has got as far as using Fit,
> > they've
> > > long abandoned this addon in favor of using the primitives directly.
> > >
> > >
> > > More generally, here's my list of Improvements (?) to
> > 'general/primitives'
> > >
> > >
> > > opt for CamelCase flag without editing the script
> > >
> > >
> > > Load into separate locale, and bring wds thru as needed
> > >
> > > Remove un

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Joe Bogner]

Here's my thoughts on the questions:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Concerning the page:
> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>
> The dust kicked up when horns are locked is obscuring for me some important
> pragmatic questions, to which I personally would like to know the answers.
> Let me break them down as follows:
>
> 1. Why is it good for anyone but a speed-freak to know about J's hidden
> speedups?
>
>
Besides performance, special combinations let a person know what is a
common "pattern" or idiom in J code. My logic -- it wouldn't be a SC if it
was a one-off, uncommon way of doing things.


> 2. Ditto for people starting out learning to code seriously in J?
>
>
In addition to above, knowing that SCs exist make me feel more confident
about the language -- that is has been 'battle tested'



> 3. Ditto for people who are just curious about J?
>

I think my answer still applies


>
> 4. Why is it good to have an exhaustive reference to J's hidden speedups in
> NuVoc, of all places (the beginner's way-into the J world)?
>


Same as above -- good to know the common patterns

>
> 5. How well hidden are J's "hidden" speedups?
> Is a beginner so likely to fall foul of them that a good knowledge of them
> is needed right from Day 1?
> What does this say to the J-curious about the design of the language?
>
>
I don't think a beginner needs to know them from day 1. It is important for
J to have "batteries included" good performance... or performance that
largely "just works". Not necessarily winning the benchmark competitions,
but enough to give a good experience



> 6. Why does J need speedups at all, hidden or otherwise?
> If it does, why bother to hide them? Why not just have libraries of faster
> alternatives to common idioms?
> Package them as Foreigns if we want to persist in avoiding expressive
> reserved names.
>

I think the same as above... If we use the idea of notation as a tool of
thought... simple notation that is optimized for performance seems to be a
good thing -- to me at least. I'd rather learn the notation instead of a
bunch of obscure foreigns (323!:23) or the slew of names

Good questions!



>
> Does J need hidden speedups because a central feature of J (subtle
> bolting-together of array-savvy functions to make new ones) denies you the
> scope to code efficiently, which is inherent in looping scalar languages?
> This surely must be uppermost in the minds of C++ programmers (and others)
> as they approach J.
>
> For those of us who've been writing J for decades, question 6 will seem
> like a non-issue. Languages have "optimization" like houses have plumbing.
> Period. But to people shopping for a new and better language, either to
> learn themselves or to recruit / train their development teams in, I'd say
> 6 is the most important issue of all where J is concerned.
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:48 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Raul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> > wrote:
> > > Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the
> > alternative ?
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul
> Miller
> > <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
> > > To: Chat forum
> > > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> > >
> > > Why do you think optimizations are bad?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Raul
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> > wrote:
> > >> I mean Special combination: http://code.jsoftware.com/
> wiki/Vocabulary/
> > SpecialCombinations
> > >>
> > >> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.
> > com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
> > >> code.jsoftware.com
> > >> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not
> > knowing what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random
> > values in a 1000 by 1000 ...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian
> > Schott <schott.br...@gmail.com>
> > >> Sent: Monday, Marc

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Joe Bogner]

I'm struggling to understand how lazy evaluation or generators fit here. I
went back and read through the thread a few times and didn't see the
explanation -- although I may have missed it

Can you elaborate on how lazy evaluation or a generator would equal the
special combination that looks for +/ ?

In my view, a special combination would be something like (psuedo code)

function insert:
   if  verb = '+' then
 result = 0
 for(i = 0; i < count; i++)
  result = result + ravel[i]
 return result
   else
 result = ravel[count-1]
 for(i = count - 2; i >= 0; i--)
   result = exec(verb, ravel[i], result)
 return result

In this simple example, it seems clear to me that knowing that the verb is
"+" provides an opportunity to optimize. I'm not sure what the lazy or
generator solution would look like

sidenote: pesudo-code could certainly have errors... just hoping to add
something concrete to the discussion to help explain

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 3:33 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:

> Just about every single special combination is equalled by lazy evaluation
> - with the very rare exceptions being those that use a completely different
> algorithm.
>
> 'in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be minimized':
> This is extremely superficial, not even because the time spent analyzing
> code is negligible compared to execution time, with potential for big
> returns, but because generators have nothing to do with code analysis.
>
> Your second point is also off topic.
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller <
> rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 8:34:59 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> You are talking about the use of generators as an array type, which I
> gather was the gist of your proposal in the propositions thread?
>
> ...
>
> I am looking forward to seeing your work on this, and the benchmarks
> on its performance.
>
> But I do not see how an implementation of that approach would be an
> adequate replacement for most of the optimizations documented on the
> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations page.
>
> And you did say "The SC based system has has got to go".
>
> Note also:
>
> (*) in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be
> minimized (though you can get away with more of this when working on
> large data sets and inefficient code than you can on small data sets
> and efficient code), and
>
> (*) the combinations chosen here were picked in part because they show
> up relatively frequently in real code, and in part because order of
> magnitude performance improvements were easy to implement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 2:09 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> wrote:
> > Since our discussion was in the source forum, I'll repeat myself here:
> >
> > Special Combination's require special code and are incapable of
> optimizing anything other than an extremely specific case.
> >
> > How you managed to think I don't like optimizations is beyond me - of
> course SC's are better than nothing, that's not the point.
> >
> > 
> > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller
> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:48:02 PM
> > To: Chat forum
> > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Raul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> wrote:
> >> Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the
> alternative ?
> >>
> >> 
> >> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul
> Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
> >> To: Chat forum
> >> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> >>
> >> Why do you think optimizations are bad?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Raul
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> wrote:
> >>> I mean Special combination: http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/
> SpecialCombinations
> >>>
> >>> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.
> com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
> >

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

Thank you, Raul.

I guess that attitude permeates most development teams, if not academia and
think-tanks.

People like me, who'd appreciate an oracle to warn when it's going to
matter, are just going around looking for trouble.

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 10:29 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I guess the answer there is: mostly, it doesn't matter.
>
> Except, when it does.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Concerning the page:
> > http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
> >
> > The dust kicked up when horns are locked is obscuring for me some
> important
> > pragmatic questions, to which I personally would like to know the
> answers.
> > Let me break them down as follows:
> >
> > 1. Why is it good for anyone but a speed-freak to know about J's hidden
> > speedups?
> >
> > 2. Ditto for people starting out learning to code seriously in J?
> >
> > 3. Ditto for people who are just curious about J?
> >
> > 4. Why is it good to have an exhaustive reference to J's hidden speedups
> in
> > NuVoc, of all places (the beginner's way-into the J world)?
> >
> > 5. How well hidden are J's "hidden" speedups?
> > Is a beginner so likely to fall foul of them that a good knowledge of
> them
> > is needed right from Day 1?
> > What does this say to the J-curious about the design of the language?
> >
> > 6. Why does J need speedups at all, hidden or otherwise?
> > If it does, why bother to hide them? Why not just have libraries of
> faster
> > alternatives to common idioms?
> > Package them as Foreigns if we want to persist in avoiding expressive
> > reserved names.
> >
> > Does J need hidden speedups because a central feature of J (subtle
> > bolting-together of array-savvy functions to make new ones) denies you
> the
> > scope to code efficiently, which is inherent in looping scalar languages?
> > This surely must be uppermost in the minds of C++ programmers (and
> others)
> > as they approach J.
> >
> > For those of us who've been writing J for decades, question 6 will seem
> > like a non-issue. Languages have "optimization" like houses have
> plumbing.
> > Period. But to people shopping for a new and better language, either to
> > learn themselves or to recruit / train their development teams in, I'd
> say
> > 6 is the most important issue of all where J is concerned.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:48 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Raul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the
> >> alternative ?
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul
> Miller
> >> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> >> > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
> >> > To: Chat forum
> >> > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> >> >
> >> > Why do you think optimizations are bad?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Raul
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> I mean Special combination: http://code.jsoftware.com/
> wiki/Vocabulary/
> >> SpecialCombinations
> >> >>
> >> >> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.
> >> com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
> >> >> code.jsoftware.com
> >> >> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not
> >> knowing what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random
> >> values in a 1000 by 1000 ...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> 
> >> >> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian
> >> Schott <schott.br...@gmail.com>
> >> >> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
> >> >> To: Chat forum
> >> >> Sub

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

I guess the answer there is: mostly, it doesn't matter.

Except, when it does.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Concerning the page:
> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>
> The dust kicked up when horns are locked is obscuring for me some important
> pragmatic questions, to which I personally would like to know the answers.
> Let me break them down as follows:
>
> 1. Why is it good for anyone but a speed-freak to know about J's hidden
> speedups?
>
> 2. Ditto for people starting out learning to code seriously in J?
>
> 3. Ditto for people who are just curious about J?
>
> 4. Why is it good to have an exhaustive reference to J's hidden speedups in
> NuVoc, of all places (the beginner's way-into the J world)?
>
> 5. How well hidden are J's "hidden" speedups?
> Is a beginner so likely to fall foul of them that a good knowledge of them
> is needed right from Day 1?
> What does this say to the J-curious about the design of the language?
>
> 6. Why does J need speedups at all, hidden or otherwise?
> If it does, why bother to hide them? Why not just have libraries of faster
> alternatives to common idioms?
> Package them as Foreigns if we want to persist in avoiding expressive
> reserved names.
>
> Does J need hidden speedups because a central feature of J (subtle
> bolting-together of array-savvy functions to make new ones) denies you the
> scope to code efficiently, which is inherent in looping scalar languages?
> This surely must be uppermost in the minds of C++ programmers (and others)
> as they approach J.
>
> For those of us who've been writing J for decades, question 6 will seem
> like a non-issue. Languages have "optimization" like houses have plumbing.
> Period. But to people shopping for a new and better language, either to
> learn themselves or to recruit / train their development teams in, I'd say
> 6 is the most important issue of all where J is concerned.
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:48 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Raul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
>> wrote:
>> > Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the
>> alternative ?
>> >
>> > 
>> > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller
>> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
>> > To: Chat forum
>> > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>> >
>> > Why do you think optimizations are bad?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > --
>> > Raul
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
>> wrote:
>> >> I mean Special combination: http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/
>> SpecialCombinations
>> >>
>> >> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.
>> com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
>> >> code.jsoftware.com
>> >> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not
>> knowing what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random
>> values in a 1000 by 1000 ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian
>> Schott <schott.br...@gmail.com>
>> >> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
>> >> To: Chat forum
>> >> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>> >>
>> >> I think it means stop_condition.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Again, I ask, in
>> >>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>> >>> what is "SC based"?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> --
>> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> >> --
>> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> > --
>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> > --
>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

The question is not whether the results are the same - we already get
the right results.

The question is whether the results are faster to obtain. Lazy is only
faster when the results are discarded and not used - it gives the
appearance of being faster, but makes system performance harder to
reason about.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 3:33 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> Just about every single special combination is equalled by lazy evaluation - 
> with the very rare exceptions being those that use a completely different 
> algorithm.
>
> 'in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be minimized': 
> This is extremely superficial, not even because the time spent analyzing code 
> is negligible compared to execution time, with potential for big returns, but 
> because generators have nothing to do with code analysis.
>
> Your second point is also off topic.
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 8:34:59 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> You are talking about the use of generators as an array type, which I
> gather was the gist of your proposal in the propositions thread?
>
> ...
>
> I am looking forward to seeing your work on this, and the benchmarks
> on its performance.
>
> But I do not see how an implementation of that approach would be an
> adequate replacement for most of the optimizations documented on the
> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations page.
>
> And you did say "The SC based system has has got to go".
>
> Note also:
>
> (*) in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be
> minimized (though you can get away with more of this when working on
> large data sets and inefficient code than you can on small data sets
> and efficient code), and
>
> (*) the combinations chosen here were picked in part because they show
> up relatively frequently in real code, and in part because order of
> magnitude performance improvements were easy to implement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 2:09 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>> Since our discussion was in the source forum, I'll repeat myself here:
>>
>> Special Combination's require special code and are incapable of optimizing 
>> anything other than an extremely specific case.
>>
>> How you managed to think I don't like optimizations is beyond me - of course 
>> SC's are better than nothing, that's not the point.
>>
>> 
>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
>> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:48:02 PM
>> To: Chat forum
>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Raul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>>> Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the 
>>> alternative ?
>>>
>>> 
>>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
>>> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
>>> To: Chat forum
>>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>>
>>> Why do you think optimizations are bad?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Raul
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>>>> I mean Special combination: 
>>>> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>>>>
>>>> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
>>>> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
>>>> code.jsoftware.com
>>>> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not 
>>>> knowing what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random 
>>>> values in a 1000 by 1000 ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
>>>> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
>>>> To: Chat forum
>>>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>>>
>>&

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

Just about every single special combination is equalled by lazy evaluation - 
with the very rare exceptions being those that use a completely different 
algorithm.

'in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be minimized': This 
is extremely superficial, not even because the time spent analyzing code is 
negligible compared to execution time, with potential for big returns, but 
because generators have nothing to do with code analysis.

Your second point is also off topic.


From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
<rauldmil...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 8:34:59 PM
To: Chat forum
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

You are talking about the use of generators as an array type, which I
gather was the gist of your proposal in the propositions thread?

...

I am looking forward to seeing your work on this, and the benchmarks
on its performance.

But I do not see how an implementation of that approach would be an
adequate replacement for most of the optimizations documented on the
http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations page.

And you did say "The SC based system has has got to go".

Note also:

(*) in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be
minimized (though you can get away with more of this when working on
large data sets and inefficient code than you can on small data sets
and efficient code), and

(*) the combinations chosen here were picked in part because they show
up relatively frequently in real code, and in part because order of
magnitude performance improvements were easy to implement.

Thanks,

--
Raul



On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 2:09 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> Since our discussion was in the source forum, I'll repeat myself here:
>
> Special Combination's require special code and are incapable of optimizing 
> anything other than an extremely specific case.
>
> How you managed to think I don't like optimizations is beyond me - of course 
> SC's are better than nothing, that's not the point.
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:48:02 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> Yes.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>> Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the 
>> alternative ?
>>
>> 
>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
>> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
>> To: Chat forum
>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>
>> Why do you think optimizations are bad?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Raul
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>>> I mean Special combination: 
>>> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>>>
>>> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
>>> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
>>> code.jsoftware.com
>>> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
>>> what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 
>>> 1000 by 1000 ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
>>> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
>>> To: Chat forum
>>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>>
>>> I think it means stop_condition.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Again, I ask, in
>>>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>>>> what is "SC based"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>> --
>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

You are talking about the use of generators as an array type, which I
gather was the gist of your proposal in the propositions thread?

...

I am looking forward to seeing your work on this, and the benchmarks
on its performance.

But I do not see how an implementation of that approach would be an
adequate replacement for most of the optimizations documented on the
http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations page.

And you did say "The SC based system has has got to go".

Note also:

(*) in an interpreter time spent on code analysis is a cost to be
minimized (though you can get away with more of this when working on
large data sets and inefficient code than you can on small data sets
and efficient code), and

(*) the combinations chosen here were picked in part because they show
up relatively frequently in real code, and in part because order of
magnitude performance improvements were easy to implement.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul



On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 2:09 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> Since our discussion was in the source forum, I'll repeat myself here:
>
> Special Combination's require special code and are incapable of optimizing 
> anything other than an extremely specific case.
>
> How you managed to think I don't like optimizations is beyond me - of course 
> SC's are better than nothing, that's not the point.
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:48:02 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> Yes.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>> Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the 
>> alternative ?
>>
>> 
>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
>> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
>> To: Chat forum
>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>
>> Why do you think optimizations are bad?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Raul
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>>> I mean Special combination: 
>>> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>>>
>>> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
>>> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
>>> code.jsoftware.com
>>> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
>>> what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 
>>> 1000 by 1000 ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
>>> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
>>> To: Chat forum
>>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>>
>>> I think it means stop_condition.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Again, I ask, in
>>>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>>>> what is "SC based"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>>> --
>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

Since our discussion was in the source forum, I'll repeat myself here:

Special Combination's require special code and are incapable of optimizing 
anything other than an extremely specific case.

How you managed to think I don't like optimizations is beyond me - of course 
SC's are better than nothing, that's not the point.


From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
<rauldmil...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:48:02 PM
To: Chat forum
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

Yes.

Thanks,

--
Raul




On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the 
> alternative ?
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> Why do you think optimizations are bad?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>> I mean Special combination: 
>> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>>
>> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
>> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
>> code.jsoftware.com
>> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
>> what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 
>> 1000 by 1000 ...
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
>> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
>> To: Chat forum
>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>
>> I think it means stop_condition.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, I ask, in
>>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>>> what is "SC based"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

Yes.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul




On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the 
> alternative ?
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
> <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> Why do you think optimizations are bad?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>> I mean Special combination: 
>> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>>
>> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
>> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
>> code.jsoftware.com
>> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
>> what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 
>> 1000 by 1000 ...
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
>> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
>> To: Chat forum
>> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>>
>> I think it means stop_condition.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, I ask, in
>>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>>> what is "SC based"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>> --
>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

Is that a serious question ? After all the time I spent explaining the 
alternative ?


From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Raul Miller 
<rauldmil...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 7:38:27 PM
To: Chat forum
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

Why do you think optimizations are bad?

Thanks,

--
Raul


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> I mean Special combination: 
> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>
> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
> code.jsoftware.com
> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
> what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 
> 1000 by 1000 ...
>
>
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> I think it means stop_condition.
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Again, I ask, in
>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>> what is "SC based"?
>>
>>
>>
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

Why do you think optimizations are bad?

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> I mean Special combination: 
> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations
>
> Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
> Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
> code.jsoftware.com
> J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
> what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 
> 1000 by 1000 ...
>
>
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
> <schott.br...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> I think it means stop_condition.
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Again, I ask, in
>> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
>> what is "SC based"?
>>
>>
>>
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

I mean Special combination: 
http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations

Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations - J 
Wiki<http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/SpecialCombinations>
code.jsoftware.com
J typically executes verbs one by one, right-to-left, each verb not knowing 
what is coming next a =: 1000 1000 ?@$ 0 NB. 1 million random values in a 1000 
by 1000 ...




From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Brian Schott 
<schott.br...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 6:24:45 PM
To: Chat forum
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

I think it means stop_condition.

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Again, I ask, in
> " 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
> what is "SC based"?
>
>
>
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Devon McCormick]

Again, I ask, in
" 4 The SC based system has has got to go... "
what is "SC based"?

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure  wrote:

> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it
> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends
> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they
> are convinced of it's power.
>
> Epitech International
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> solidified its reputation ...
>
>
>
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the
> hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the
> time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure
> about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be
> suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the
> reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself
> from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable,
> or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be
> the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with
> those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both
> extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty
> of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the
> only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first
> few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in
> the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my
> statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more
> like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant
> because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with
> nor in charge of jsoftware.
>
> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source
> forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization
> for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times
> that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has
> even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious
> doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's
> existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
>
>
> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to
> make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to
> preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt
> sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed.
>
> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some
> people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of
> visiting it.
>
> 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q resources are extremely popular
> nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and will
> always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this prove
> unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has almost
> no presence on SO.
>
> 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an abherration:
> nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate this
> and that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have much
> more logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given logical
> names like 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace is a
> miniscule one. I also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like '2 o.
> y', and '6!:2' etc.. but for that to happen, these need standard default
> names, even multiple aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the miniscule
> performance loss associated with having multiple equivalent names, the
> possibility of guessingand have it work anyway is far more important.
>
> 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should
> certainly not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run optimally
>
> 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in
> keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I very
> much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, but
> the website's overall presentation is not good.
>
> 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs,
> (not my learning style but for sure they are valuable)
>

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Don Guinn]

My concern was if scripts were converted that included fit would cause
errors in execution.

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Fraser, for clarifying its purpose.
>
> > The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of
> secondaries.
>
> Working on a set of NuVoc-compatible cover verbs, I've changed my mind and
> now I agree with you.
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM, Fraser Jackson <fraser.jack...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > It is good to see renewed interest in using the 'primitives' script.  Its
> > original purpose was to enable use of J in teaching environments where
> the
> > use of symbols instead of words for function names added difficulty.
> >
> > Camel Case was an option, but an alternative way of treating it would be
> > appropriate.  It would be easy to modify the script to erase the names
> > defined and replace them with CamelCase ones.
> >
> > For a user who wants to use names for specific alternative uses of the
> > primitives,  appropriate names are included but all of the definitions
> are
> > linked directly to replacement by the primitive, so there is a great deal
> > of redundancy.  There is no attempt to enforce valency so some strange
> > verbal expressions execute .  It is essential for students to learn about
> > valency and order of execution right at the beginning of using J.  This
> > approach was adopted in the hope that as students advanced they would
> learn
> > the primitives, their brevity and the relationships between most monadic
> > and dyadic uses.
> >
> > The 'primitives' script was not revised when NuVoc was introduced, but it
> > would be good to have a careful consideration of ways of matching the
> > names.  They should be kept as brief as possible and not extend to
> phrases.
> >
> > The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of
> > secondaries.  Their place is much better in scripts for a specific
> purpose
> > or field of application.
> >
> > Fraser
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of Ian Clark
> > Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018 6:05 PM
> > To: c...@jsoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> >
> > I suggest Fit isn't given a cover word of its own, but used to define new
> > "secondaries" to match www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc exactly.
> > Also (maybe as an option?) extra code is inserted to enforce valency.
> > Examples:
> >
> >
> >Reverse=: |. : [:
> >
> >Rotate=: [: : |.
> >
> >Shift=: |.!._
> >
> >ShiftRight1=:_1
> >
> >Reverse i.6
> >
> > 5 4 3 2 1 0
> >
> >2 Rotate i.6
> >
> > 2 3 4 5 0 1
> >
> >2 Shift i.6
> >
> > 2 3 4 5 _ _
> >
> >ShiftRight1 i.6
> >
> > _ 0 1 2 3 4
> >
> >
> > I also suggest that if any "beginner" has got as far as using Fit,
> they've
> > long abandoned this addon in favor of using the primitives directly.
> >
> >
> > More generally, here's my list of Improvements (?) to
> 'general/primitives'
> >
> >
> > opt for CamelCase flag without editing the script
> >
> >
> > Load into separate locale, and bring wds thru as needed
> >
> > Remove unused words, on basis of the defining script (4!:3)
> >
> > Use a phrase, not just the bare primitive (…see above)
> >
> > in various forms of: (;.), (|) …etc
> >
> > i.e. make the addon EXACTLY compatible with www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/
> > NuVoc
> >
> > Use Monad/Dyad to enforce the valency (…see above)
> >
> > (make it an option, in the same way as CamelCase)
> >
> > Extend to Foreigns too
> >
> > may need to propose a new set of "Secondaries"
> >
> > Intelligent error message when an unloaded word is called.
> >
> > -provide a stub for every known secondary, which displays some helpful
> > guidance to user, e.g. which script to load
> >
> > Include Secondaries from Dic.
> >
> > http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/intro28.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:27 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The problem is that fit only applies to primitives.
> > >
> > > On Mar 4, 2018 9:23 PM, "Ian Clark" <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> &

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

Thanks, Fraser, for clarifying its purpose.

> The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of
secondaries.

Working on a set of NuVoc-compatible cover verbs, I've changed my mind and
now I agree with you.

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM, Fraser Jackson <fraser.jack...@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:

> It is good to see renewed interest in using the 'primitives' script.  Its
> original purpose was to enable use of J in teaching environments where the
> use of symbols instead of words for function names added difficulty.
>
> Camel Case was an option, but an alternative way of treating it would be
> appropriate.  It would be easy to modify the script to erase the names
> defined and replace them with CamelCase ones.
>
> For a user who wants to use names for specific alternative uses of the
> primitives,  appropriate names are included but all of the definitions are
> linked directly to replacement by the primitive, so there is a great deal
> of redundancy.  There is no attempt to enforce valency so some strange
> verbal expressions execute .  It is essential for students to learn about
> valency and order of execution right at the beginning of using J.  This
> approach was adopted in the hope that as students advanced they would learn
> the primitives, their brevity and the relationships between most monadic
> and dyadic uses.
>
> The 'primitives' script was not revised when NuVoc was introduced, but it
> would be good to have a careful consideration of ways of matching the
> names.  They should be kept as brief as possible and not extend to phrases.
>
> The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of
> secondaries.  Their place is much better in scripts for a specific purpose
> or field of application.
>
> Fraser
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of Ian Clark
> Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018 6:05 PM
> To: c...@jsoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> I suggest Fit isn't given a cover word of its own, but used to define new
> "secondaries" to match www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc exactly.
> Also (maybe as an option?) extra code is inserted to enforce valency.
> Examples:
>
>
>Reverse=: |. : [:
>
>Rotate=: [: : |.
>
>Shift=: |.!._
>
>ShiftRight1=:_1
>
>Reverse i.6
>
> 5 4 3 2 1 0
>
>2 Rotate i.6
>
> 2 3 4 5 0 1
>
>2 Shift i.6
>
> 2 3 4 5 _ _
>
>ShiftRight1 i.6
>
> _ 0 1 2 3 4
>
>
> I also suggest that if any "beginner" has got as far as using Fit, they've
> long abandoned this addon in favor of using the primitives directly.
>
>
> More generally, here's my list of Improvements (?) to 'general/primitives'
>
>
> opt for CamelCase flag without editing the script
>
>
> Load into separate locale, and bring wds thru as needed
>
> Remove unused words, on basis of the defining script (4!:3)
>
> Use a phrase, not just the bare primitive (…see above)
>
> in various forms of: (;.), (|) …etc
>
> i.e. make the addon EXACTLY compatible with www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/
> NuVoc
>
> Use Monad/Dyad to enforce the valency (…see above)
>
> (make it an option, in the same way as CamelCase)
>
> Extend to Foreigns too
>
> may need to propose a new set of "Secondaries"
>
> Intelligent error message when an unloaded word is called.
>
> -provide a stub for every known secondary, which displays some helpful
> guidance to user, e.g. which script to load
>
> Include Secondaries from Dic.
>
> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/intro28.htm
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:27 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem is that fit only applies to primitives.
> >
> > On Mar 4, 2018 9:23 PM, "Ian Clark" <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > @Jose
> > > I was just about to tell Don that.
> > >
> > > IMO this is a clumsy way of adjusting the behavior of a script at
> > > load time.
> > > It will trip up a beginner.
> > >
> > > This is one of the first alterations I'd make. But I'm not sure
> > > what's
> > the
> > > best way to do it.
> > > What first comes to mind is…
> > >
> > > (1) ask user to enter:
> > >CamelCase_z_=: 1
> > > before loading the script.
> > >
> > > (2) (my preferred)
> > > Have alternative scripts, e.g.
> > >load 'general/lowercaseprimitives'NB. a trivial script which
> > > loads: general/primitives
> > >load 'general/Came

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Fraser Jackson]

It is good to see renewed interest in using the 'primitives' script.  Its 
original purpose was to enable use of J in teaching environments where the use 
of symbols instead of words for function names added difficulty.

Camel Case was an option, but an alternative way of treating it would be 
appropriate.  It would be easy to modify the script to erase the names defined 
and replace them with CamelCase ones.

For a user who wants to use names for specific alternative uses of the 
primitives,  appropriate names are included but all of the definitions are 
linked directly to replacement by the primitive, so there is a great deal of 
redundancy.  There is no attempt to enforce valency so some strange verbal 
expressions execute .  It is essential for students to learn about valency and 
order of execution right at the beginning of using J.  This approach was 
adopted in the hope that as students advanced they would learn the primitives, 
their brevity and the relationships between most monadic and dyadic uses. 

The 'primitives' script was not revised when NuVoc was introduced, but it would 
be good to have a careful consideration of ways of matching the names.  They 
should be kept as brief as possible and not extend to phrases.

The primitives script should not be extended with a wide range of secondaries.  
Their place is much better in scripts for a specific purpose or field of 
application. 

Fraser







-Original Message-
From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of Ian Clark
Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018 6:05 PM
To: c...@jsoftware.com
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

I suggest Fit isn't given a cover word of its own, but used to define new 
"secondaries" to match www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc exactly.
Also (maybe as an option?) extra code is inserted to enforce valency.
Examples:


   Reverse=: |. : [:

   Rotate=: [: : |.

   Shift=: |.!._

   ShiftRight1=:_1

   Reverse i.6

5 4 3 2 1 0

   2 Rotate i.6

2 3 4 5 0 1

   2 Shift i.6

2 3 4 5 _ _

   ShiftRight1 i.6

_ 0 1 2 3 4


I also suggest that if any "beginner" has got as far as using Fit, they've long 
abandoned this addon in favor of using the primitives directly.


More generally, here's my list of Improvements (?) to 'general/primitives'


opt for CamelCase flag without editing the script


Load into separate locale, and bring wds thru as needed

Remove unused words, on basis of the defining script (4!:3)

Use a phrase, not just the bare primitive (…see above)

in various forms of: (;.), (|) …etc

i.e. make the addon EXACTLY compatible with www.code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc

Use Monad/Dyad to enforce the valency (…see above)

(make it an option, in the same way as CamelCase)

Extend to Foreigns too

may need to propose a new set of "Secondaries"

Intelligent error message when an unloaded word is called.

-provide a stub for every known secondary, which displays some helpful guidance 
to user, e.g. which script to load

Include Secondaries from Dic.

http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/intro28.htm



On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:27 AM, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem is that fit only applies to primitives.
>
> On Mar 4, 2018 9:23 PM, "Ian Clark" <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > @Jose
> > I was just about to tell Don that.
> >
> > IMO this is a clumsy way of adjusting the behavior of a script at 
> > load time.
> > It will trip up a beginner.
> >
> > This is one of the first alterations I'd make. But I'm not sure 
> > what's
> the
> > best way to do it.
> > What first comes to mind is…
> >
> > (1) ask user to enter:
> >CamelCase_z_=: 1
> > before loading the script.
> >
> > (2) (my preferred)
> > Have alternative scripts, e.g.
> >load 'general/lowercaseprimitives'NB. a trivial script which
> > loads: general/primitives
> >load 'general/CamelCasePrimitives' NB. makes the LIT adjustment,
> by
> > any user-transparent way.
> >
> > This problem (of loading same script with different options) turns 
> > up frequently for me.
> > What's the best-practice way of doing it, which is likely to be 
> > instantly understood by a beginner?
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:11 AM, Jose Mario Quintana < 
> > jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The addon script has the names as you described.  However, it 
> > > contains
> > the
> > > lines,
> > >
> > > NB.  Place  NB. on next line to have CamelCase form LIT =: tolower 
> > > each LIT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Brian Schott 
> > > <schott.br...@gmail.com>
> >

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

@Jose
I was just about to tell Don that.

IMO this is a clumsy way of adjusting the behavior of a script at load time.
It will trip up a beginner.

This is one of the first alterations I'd make. But I'm not sure what's the
best way to do it.
What first comes to mind is…

(1) ask user to enter:
   CamelCase_z_=: 1
before loading the script.

(2) (my preferred)
Have alternative scripts, e.g.
   load 'general/lowercaseprimitives'NB. a trivial script which
loads: general/primitives
   load 'general/CamelCasePrimitives' NB. makes the LIT adjustment, by
any user-transparent way.

This problem (of loading same script with different options) turns up
frequently for me.
What's the best-practice way of doing it, which is likely to be instantly
understood by a beginner?


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:11 AM, Jose Mario Quintana <
jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The addon script has the names as you described.  However, it contains the
> lines,
>
> NB.  Place  NB. on next line to have CamelCase form
> LIT =: tolower each LIT
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Brian Schott 
> wrote:
>
> > Ian,
> >
> > I like your ideas regarding general/primitives . I just did a load of the
> > addon and was surprised that they are lowercase. My memory suggested they
> > were uppercase initial letters like the Vocabulary. But I never use them,
> > so take what I say with that in mind. I was please to see that in jqt an
> F1
> > tap when the cursor is near the primitive, or near the spelled-out
> > primitive, took me to the Vocabulary page. I was expecting to be
> delivered
> > to the Dictionary page, though. Maybe that's something I have not
> > configured properly on my Mac. Another disappointment on my Mac was that
> > shift+F1 did not take me to NuVoc (again, maybe a config issue).
> >
> > And, all of F1 access leaves out jconsole and jhs as far as I can tell.
> So,
> > I suspect new users are steered to jqt.
> >
> > I personally lean toward jconsole in much of my J use, btw.
> >
> >JVERSION
> > Engine: j806/j64/darwin
> > Release: commercial/2017-11-06T10:20:33
> > Library: 8.06.09
> > Qt IDE: 1.6.2/5.6.3
> > Platform: Darwin 64
> > Installer: J806 install
> > InstallPath: /users/brian/j64-806
> > Contact: www.jsoftware.com
> > --
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> >
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

Yet,

   1 2(,: fit 10)3 4 5
1 2 10
3 4  5

works.  That is strange, to say the least.

Also, trying to name $: (e.g., as selfreference) is hopeless.




On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Don Guinn  wrote:

> Well, almost all names work. But fit does not.
>
> 1 2(,:!.10)3 4 5
>
> 1 2 10
>
> 3 4 5
>
> 1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5
>
> |domain error: fit
>
> | 1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5
>
> Also, for CamelCase, comment out line 253 in primitives.ijs .
>
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 12:58 PM, Brian Schott 
> wrote:
>
> > Ian,
> >
> > I like your ideas regarding general/primitives . I just did a load of the
> > addon and was surprised that they are lowercase. My memory suggested they
> > were uppercase initial letters like the Vocabulary. But I never use them,
> > so take what I say with that in mind. I was please to see that in jqt an
> F1
> > tap when the cursor is near the primitive, or near the spelled-out
> > primitive, took me to the Vocabulary page. I was expecting to be
> delivered
> > to the Dictionary page, though. Maybe that's something I have not
> > configured properly on my Mac. Another disappointment on my Mac was that
> > shift+F1 did not take me to NuVoc (again, maybe a config issue).
> >
> > And, all of F1 access leaves out jconsole and jhs as far as I can tell.
> So,
> > I suspect new users are steered to jqt.
> >
> > I personally lean toward jconsole in much of my J use, btw.
> >
> >JVERSION
> > Engine: j806/j64/darwin
> > Release: commercial/2017-11-06T10:20:33
> > Library: 8.06.09
> > Qt IDE: 1.6.2/5.6.3
> > Platform: Darwin 64
> > Installer: J806 install
> > InstallPath: /users/brian/j64-806
> > Contact: www.jsoftware.com
> > --
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> >
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Don Guinn]

Well, almost all names work. But fit does not.

1 2(,:!.10)3 4 5

1 2 10

3 4 5

1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5

|domain error: fit

| 1 2(laminate fit 10)3 4 5

Also, for CamelCase, comment out line 253 in primitives.ijs .

On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 12:58 PM, Brian Schott 
wrote:

> Ian,
>
> I like your ideas regarding general/primitives . I just did a load of the
> addon and was surprised that they are lowercase. My memory suggested they
> were uppercase initial letters like the Vocabulary. But I never use them,
> so take what I say with that in mind. I was please to see that in jqt an F1
> tap when the cursor is near the primitive, or near the spelled-out
> primitive, took me to the Vocabulary page. I was expecting to be delivered
> to the Dictionary page, though. Maybe that's something I have not
> configured properly on my Mac. Another disappointment on my Mac was that
> shift+F1 did not take me to NuVoc (again, maybe a config issue).
>
> And, all of F1 access leaves out jconsole and jhs as far as I can tell. So,
> I suspect new users are steered to jqt.
>
> I personally lean toward jconsole in much of my J use, btw.
>
>JVERSION
> Engine: j806/j64/darwin
> Release: commercial/2017-11-06T10:20:33
> Library: 8.06.09
> Qt IDE: 1.6.2/5.6.3
> Platform: Darwin 64
> Installer: J806 install
> InstallPath: /users/brian/j64-806
> Contact: www.jsoftware.com
> --
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Brian Schott]

Ian,

I like your ideas regarding general/primitives . I just did a load of the
addon and was surprised that they are lowercase. My memory suggested they
were uppercase initial letters like the Vocabulary. But I never use them,
so take what I say with that in mind. I was please to see that in jqt an F1
tap when the cursor is near the primitive, or near the spelled-out
primitive, took me to the Vocabulary page. I was expecting to be delivered
to the Dictionary page, though. Maybe that's something I have not
configured properly on my Mac. Another disappointment on my Mac was that
shift+F1 did not take me to NuVoc (again, maybe a config issue).

And, all of F1 access leaves out jconsole and jhs as far as I can tell. So,
I suspect new users are steered to jqt.

I personally lean toward jconsole in much of my J use, btw.

   JVERSION
Engine: j806/j64/darwin
Release: commercial/2017-11-06T10:20:33
Library: 8.06.09
Qt IDE: 1.6.2/5.6.3
Platform: Darwin 64
Installer: J806 install
InstallPath: /users/brian/j64-806
Contact: www.jsoftware.com
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Ian Clark]

Raul wrote
> I'll see if I can throw together a demo when I've got some breathing
space.

I was on the point of doing the same myself when I discovered an addon I'd
hitherto overlooked.

   load 'general/primitives'

…will generate in the _z_ locale a set of cover words for all the J
primitives.

AFAICT the names are NuVoc-compatible, but I haven't verified this in
detail.
There is an option (which alas needs the script itself to be edited) for
lowercase or CamelCase words.
The same addon will also convert a script.

IMO the addon is buried away and easily overlooked by a beginner. This
needs fixing somehow.
There should be several prominent adverts for its existence in NuVoc

I can also think of improvements(?) I'd like to make to it, as it stands.
Ideas for detecting or preventing name clashes, and deleting unused words.

Should this addon (or the words it creates) be part of stdlib? If not, why
not?
(I want to know for my own better understanding.)

@Raul -you may already be aware of this addon, and intend to base your demo
upon it.
I suggest we all do just that, and all of us treat further work in this
direction as extending this addon.
There is a danger of reinventing the wheel.  (I speak for myself.)

Ian Clark

>>> RESENDING due to reported error. Sorry if posting is duplicated.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:48 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Note that you can pack a lot more information into a tool-tip
> (mouse-over popup than you can in a name. The ui for would, I think,
> also be more intuitive.
>
> I'll see if I can throw together a demo when I've got some breathing space.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 8:20 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> wrote:
> > I don't really like the idea of i at all: people don't have to use any
> features of j they don't understand.
> >
> > I like an idea related to your words suggestion: we could have an
> interpreter switch that translates the symbols to English names, as an aid
> for beginners.
> >
> > 
> > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Jack
> Andrews <effb...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 2:12:26 AM
> > To: Chat forum
> > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
> >
> > i'm an outsider to j - coming from k (but i've spent some time with j).
> >
> > how about a simpler j - say "i", which is implemented in j but hides some
> > of the "harder to learn" features.
> > the language could have only adverbs, verbs and nouns and eliminate forks
> > (and conjunctions?).
> > it could also use words like "insert" or "over" in place of the glyph
> > the k style lambdas are easy to use, too.
> >
> > this might be an easier entry into j and allow people to discover j by
> > using i.
> > this is much like the k/q distinction in the kx language.
> >
> >
> > On 2 March 2018 at 10:51, Jose Mario Quintana <
> jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> :D
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui <rogerhui.can...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
> >> > jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
> >> > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can
> >> > >
> >> > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still
> >> > contributes
> >> > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence
> is
> >> > > noticeable sometimes).
> >> > >
> >> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious
> interest
> >> > in
> >> > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current
> situation,
> >> in
> >> > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.
> >> > >
> >> > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
> >> > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he
> is
> >> > now
> >> > > (AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
> >> > > occasionally.
> >> > >
> >> > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago
> >> > discussing,
> >> > > whil

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

I wrote:

> There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J

I should point out that Marshall was a student of Henry Rich; thus, his
introduction to J was presumably quite different.

The page,

Community/Demographics
http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Community/Demographics

shows a sample of people that are, or were, using J.  A couple of aspects
of it, I am afraid, might be providing an ominous corroboration to points
made by Andrew Dabrowski and James Faure regarding the question: Where is J
going?


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
> mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can
>
> He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still
> contributes to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL
> influence is noticeable sometimes).
>
> > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation, in
> the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.
>
> There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
> Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is now
> (AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
> occasionally.
>
> I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago
> discussing, while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done
> to advance in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly
> under-utilized paradigm.  What was their conclusion?  It was hopeless to
> try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they had
> invested too much in an alternative paradigm.  However, they would
> eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations.  (I doubt
> the strategy was a new one.)
>
> To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their
> perspective.  At the very least you have provided a sample.  Thanks for
> taking the time for doing so.
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure 
> wrote:
>
>> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course,
>> it will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
>> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
>> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends
>> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
>> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they
>> are convinced of it's power.
>>
>> Epitech International
>> international.epitech.eu
>> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
>> and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
>> solidified its reputation ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
>> J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the
>> hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the
>> time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure
>> about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be
>> suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the
>> reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself
>> from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable,
>> or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be
>> the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with
>> those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both
>> extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty
>> of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the
>> only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first
>> few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in
>> the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my
>> statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more
>> like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant
>> because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with
>> nor in charge of jsoftware.
>>
>> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source
>> forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization
>> for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times
>> that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has
>> even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious
>> doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's
>> existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
>>
>>
>> 0 The 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

Note that you can pack a lot more information into a tool-tip
(mouse-over popup than you can in a name. The ui for would, I think,
also be more intuitive.

I'll see if I can throw together a demo when I've got some breathing space.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 8:20 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
> I don't really like the idea of i at all: people don't have to use any 
> features of j they don't understand.
>
> I like an idea related to your words suggestion: we could have an interpreter 
> switch that translates the symbols to English names, as an aid for beginners.
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Jack Andrews 
> <effb...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 2:12:26 AM
> To: Chat forum
> Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>
> i'm an outsider to j - coming from k (but i've spent some time with j).
>
> how about a simpler j - say "i", which is implemented in j but hides some
> of the "harder to learn" features.
> the language could have only adverbs, verbs and nouns and eliminate forks
> (and conjunctions?).
> it could also use words like "insert" or "over" in place of the glyph
> the k style lambdas are easy to use, too.
>
> this might be an easier entry into j and allow people to discover j by
> using i.
> this is much like the k/q distinction in the kx language.
>
>
> On 2 March 2018 at 10:51, Jose Mario Quintana <jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> :D
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui <rogerhui.can...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
>> > jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
>> > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can
>> > >
>> > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still
>> > contributes
>> > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is
>> > > noticeable sometimes).
>> > >
>> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest
>> > in
>> > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation,
>> in
>> > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.
>> > >
>> > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
>> > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is
>> > now
>> > > (AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
>> > > occasionally.
>> > >
>> > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago
>> > discussing,
>> > > while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to
>> advance
>> > > in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly
>> > > under-utilized paradigm.  What was their conclusion?  It was hopeless
>> to
>> > > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they
>> had
>> > > invested too much in an alternative paradigm.  However, they would
>> > > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations.  (I
>> doubt
>> > > the strategy was a new one.)
>> > >
>> > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their
>> > > perspective.  At the very least you have provided a sample.  Thanks for
>> > > taking the time for doing so.
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current
>> course,
>> > > it
>> > > > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have
>> abandonned J
>> > > > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch
>> from
>> > > > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my
>> > > friends
>> > > > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
>> > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe
>> > they
>> > > > are convinced of it's power.
>> > > >
>> > > > Epitech Internationa

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

I don't really like the idea of i at all: people don't have to use any features 
of j they don't understand.

I like an idea related to your words suggestion: we could have an interpreter 
switch that translates the symbols to English names, as an aid for beginners.


From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Jack Andrews 
<effb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 2:12:26 AM
To: Chat forum
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

i'm an outsider to j - coming from k (but i've spent some time with j).

how about a simpler j - say "i", which is implemented in j but hides some
of the "harder to learn" features.
the language could have only adverbs, verbs and nouns and eliminate forks
(and conjunctions?).
it could also use words like "insert" or "over" in place of the glyph
the k style lambdas are easy to use, too.

this might be an easier entry into j and allow people to discover j by
using i.
this is much like the k/q distinction in the kx language.


On 2 March 2018 at 10:51, Jose Mario Quintana <jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com
> wrote:

> :D
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui <rogerhui.can...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
> > jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
> > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can
> > >
> > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still
> > contributes
> > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is
> > > noticeable sometimes).
> > >
> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest
> > in
> > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation,
> in
> > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.
> > >
> > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
> > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is
> > now
> > > (AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
> > > occasionally.
> > >
> > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago
> > discussing,
> > > while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to
> advance
> > > in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly
> > > under-utilized paradigm.  What was their conclusion?  It was hopeless
> to
> > > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they
> had
> > > invested too much in an alternative paradigm.  However, they would
> > > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations.  (I
> doubt
> > > the strategy was a new one.)
> > >
> > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their
> > > perspective.  At the very least you have provided a sample.  Thanks for
> > > taking the time for doing so.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current
> course,
> > > it
> > > > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have
> abandonned J
> > > > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch
> from
> > > > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my
> > > friends
> > > > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe
> > they
> > > > are convinced of it's power.
> > > >
> > > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
> > > > international.epitech.eu
> > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to
> Epitech
> > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> > > > solidified its reputation ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest
> > in
> > > > J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation,
> in
> > > the
> > > > hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between
> > the
> > > > time that I heard of J and commit

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jack Andrews]

i'm an outsider to j - coming from k (but i've spent some time with j).

how about a simpler j - say "i", which is implemented in j but hides some
of the "harder to learn" features.
the language could have only adverbs, verbs and nouns and eliminate forks
(and conjunctions?).
it could also use words like "insert" or "over" in place of the glyph
the k style lambdas are easy to use, too.

this might be an easier entry into j and allow people to discover j by
using i.
this is much like the k/q distinction in the kx language.


On 2 March 2018 at 10:51, Jose Mario Quintana  wrote:

> :D
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui 
> wrote:
>
> > Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
> > jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
> > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can
> > >
> > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still
> > contributes
> > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is
> > > noticeable sometimes).
> > >
> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest
> > in
> > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation,
> in
> > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.
> > >
> > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
> > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is
> > now
> > > (AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
> > > occasionally.
> > >
> > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago
> > discussing,
> > > while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to
> advance
> > > in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly
> > > under-utilized paradigm.  What was their conclusion?  It was hopeless
> to
> > > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they
> had
> > > invested too much in an alternative paradigm.  However, they would
> > > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations.  (I
> doubt
> > > the strategy was a new one.)
> > >
> > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their
> > > perspective.  At the very least you have provided a sample.  Thanks for
> > > taking the time for doing so.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current
> course,
> > > it
> > > > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have
> abandonned J
> > > > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch
> from
> > > > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my
> > > friends
> > > > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe
> > they
> > > > are convinced of it's power.
> > > >
> > > > Epitech International
> > > > international.epitech.eu
> > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to
> Epitech
> > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> > > > solidified its reputation ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest
> > in
> > > > J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation,
> in
> > > the
> > > > hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between
> > the
> > > > time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely
> > > unsure
> > > > about whether the language would have a future and whether it would
> be
> > > > suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is
> > the
> > > > reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to
> > > myself
> > > > from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is
> > > suitable,
> > > > or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to
> > be
> > > > the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even
> with
> > > > those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am
> > both
> > > > extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with
> > > plenty
> > > > of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain
> > the
> > > > only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the
> > > first
> > > > few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done
> so
> > > in
> > > > the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of
> my
> > > > statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms,
> > > more
> > > > like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me
> > arrogant
> > > 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

> of the points I have raised, I still am not comfortable recommending J to
anyone at this time, there is too > much uncertainty about it's future. As
a learning experience, J is extremely instructive, but betting on it > is
far too risky.

I think I understand.  If I were in a similar situation I would ask myself,
is it worth to spend the time and effort?  Would it help me to get a
position in the academia or the industry?  Uncertainty?  Check!  Even if I
could use J just for prototyping and quickly produce proof on concepts,
would I have the necessary tools and acceptable performance?  Uncertainty?
Check!  If I could use J to implement apps or systems in a particular
field, would it perform properly?  In the long run, would I have access to
the necessary supporting up-to-date libraries?  Would J be alive and well?
Would I have to spend too much of my time adding extensions to the
interpreter to satisfy my needs?  Would the J Source be up-to-date?  How
many people would be really familiar with the J source?  Would be able
eventually to hire, or attract, some help to extend the language (if
necessary)?  Would I have to teach J first to the helpers?  Would I have
the resources?  Would the extensions patches survive J Source updates?
Should I try to update the patches and keep up with the latest J Source?
Could there be legal implications?  Uncertainty?  Check!

I am afraid the above might not be very encouraging; but, I probably also
went too far (reflecting my own past and present worries).

However, there is another aspect which is very important (at least to me):
J makes programming an intellectual pleasure.  It is not the only one, even
from my vantage point, I enjoyed programming in MicroAPL.68000 (its
successor has been effectively absorbed by...  Dyalog APL!), and later in
Dyalog APL although not as much.  I probably would have had pleasure
programming in kdb+/q; then again, knowing J would help one to switch to
Dyalog APL or kdb+/q, if necessary and possible (they are not immune to
uncertainty either).

In my experience, if your job becomes a hobby for you good things happen;
yet, I should disclose that I am by nature a risk taker (when my expected
reward justifies it).  Anyway, If wors come to worst learning J would be,
and I strongly suspect it already is, expanding your vision.

I hope it helps.

PS.  "Better late than never."  Welcome to the forums!


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:

> Jig is a nice idea, but you read me spot on: I use only the jconsole, so I
> don't think I can give much meaningful insight there. For graphical J, I
> think the jhs is the right idea, webapps are nowadays taking the place of
> desktop based applications. To be honest though, I don't think it makes
> sense that J expend much effort on providing development environments,
> Everyone I work with ends up having different preferences and IDE's anyway,
> from vim through emacs, atom, komodo and vscode. The jconsole is the heart
> of J, and in my case the only thing I have ended up using (with vim).
>
>
> The direct question about my learning style: I always start by finding a
> project, or some experiment I want to get done, and then make it happen.
> Thus I have a direct goal in mind to help focus my learning and a context
> in which to try to place the information I find in the manuals. I forgot to
> mention in my first post, what my mindset when learning J was. I was at the
> time planning to implement a language with llvm. Before trying to design a
> language (even a toy one), I wanted to research programming languages and
> try out as many different ones as possible. Enter J, and on the surface, J
> looked completely insane. Several days into learning J, my opinions were
> still reserved, and to be honest I didn't really believe it to be a serious
> language. Of coures, my object was to gain background information and
> understand the mistakes and ideas of the past, so I continued, and only now
> that I have penetrated deep enough, am I convinced of it's genius. So there
> it is, J has done a poor job of selling it's merits (perhaps the front page
> should have a title, and a front page listing reasons for 'why J?'). The
> reasons people have nowadays for not trusting J are very understandable,
> and due to many of the points I have raised, I still am not comfortable
> recommending J to anyone at this time, there is too much uncertainty about
> it's future. As a learning experience, J is extremely instructive, but
> betting on it is far too risky.
>
>
> The console doesn't feel oldschool to me, in fact python, ruby etc.. don't
> even offer anything else. There are some oldschool aspects in the console
> though.
>
> 
> From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of robert
> therri

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Roger Hui]

Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated.


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
> mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can
>
> He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still contributes
> to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is
> noticeable sometimes).
>
> > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation, in
> the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.
>
> There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
> Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is now
> (AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
> occasionally.
>
> I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago discussing,
> while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to advance
> in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly
> under-utilized paradigm.  What was their conclusion?  It was hopeless to
> try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they had
> invested too much in an alternative paradigm.  However, they would
> eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations.  (I doubt
> the strategy was a new one.)
>
> To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their
> perspective.  At the very least you have provided a sample.  Thanks for
> taking the time for doing so.
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure 
> wrote:
>
> > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course,
> it
> > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
> > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my
> friends
> > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they
> > are convinced of it's power.
> >
> > Epitech International
> > international.epitech.eu
> > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> > solidified its reputation ...
> >
> >
> >
> > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> > J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in
> the
> > hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the
> > time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely
> unsure
> > about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be
> > suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the
> > reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to
> myself
> > from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is
> suitable,
> > or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be
> > the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with
> > those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both
> > extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with
> plenty
> > of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the
> > only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the
> first
> > few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so
> in
> > the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my
> > statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms,
> more
> > like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant
> > because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with
> > nor in charge of jsoftware.
> >
> > My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source
> > forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization
> > for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times
> > that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this
> has
> > even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious
> > doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to
> J's
> > existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
> >
> >
> > 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to
> > make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to
> > preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt
> > sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be
> renamed.
> >
> > 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some
> > people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

 > I think you make some good points, and it is worth introspecting J's
current position. I don't
> think J will ever be a mainstream language, and it should never be
intended to be so.

I thought J being virtually unknown to be a blessing because the bosses had
no idea how little effort it took to get the results they saw.  Later, I
thought it was a competitive advantage.

I still think that way but it becomes an issue if it is, or it is perceived
to be, endangered.

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:15 AM, 'Jon Hough' via Chat <c...@jsoftware.com>
wrote:

> I think you make some good points, and it is worth introspecting J's
> current position. I don't think J will ever be a mainstream language, and
> it should never be intended to be so.
> Some quick comments on some of your points:
>
> 0: I never understood why the name J was chosen. It is search engine
> unfriendly. However, what's done is done, and you can always use "jlang" in
> searches. Renaming the language
> would cause too much confusion. Besides J is in good company (C,D,K,R).
>
> 1: jsoftware's homepage is pretty dreary looking, and it could do with a
> facelift (even just using bootstrap.js would help). I would gladly help out
> if needed. The J Dictionary is
> incredibly difficult to use. I find it is easiest to do everything through
> Nuvoc and the thru to dictionary link. Without Nuvoc I would be lost.
>
> 6: I love the labs... when they work, which is another issue. It seems J
> is moving pretty fast and some things are getting left behind. This is
> excusable as J's community is so small.
>
> 7: I agree. this should be on, or near, jsoftware's front page.
>
> 9: Error messages are often not particularly helpful, but I usually find
> the error itself is easy to spot once the error message is shown. Also the
> dissect tool is very good at figuring out
> where errors are.
>
> J has a small community, but it is hardly dead. And J is still useful. I
> absolutely prefer using J to other similar tools (numpy, R). It is also
> infuriating, and lack of libraries makes
> some tasks that would be simple in other languages, very difficult in J.
>
> If I were to suggest J were to head in any direction now, it would be to
> add CUDA / GPU bindings to allow J to use fast array ops on GPUs. I know
> Pascal wrote ArrayFire bindings a while
> back [0]. It would also be good for J to have some sort of Machine
> Learning framework. I think "frameworks" in general, are anathema to the
> APL/J way of doing things. i.e. you are supposed to
> make your own "framework" from the primitives, but other than some
> enthusiasts, the great mass of programmers don't have time, or care to do
> this.
>
> [0] https://github.com/Pascal-J
> 
> On Thu, 3/1/18, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>
>  Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
>  To: "c...@jsoftware.com" <c...@jsoftware.com>
>  Date: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 11:40 AM
>
>  Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to
>  steer it's current course, it will be quickly forgotten.
>  Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if
>  I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
>  first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to
>  interest my friends in J and in fact have yet to get a
>  single other person from Epitech http://international.epitech.eu/ to
> learn J, even
>  though I believe they are convinced of it's power.
>
>  Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
>  international.epitech.eu
>  Dear International Students, We will be
>  happy to welcome you to Epitech and hope you will enjoy this
>  unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified its
>  reputation ...
>
>
>
>  Since I seem to be by far the youngest
>  person with a serious interest in J, I will try to explain
>  my understanding of the current situation, in the hope that
>  it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between
>  the time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I
>  was extremely unsure about whether the language would have a
>  future and whether it would be suitable to do everything.
>  Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am
>  here, without it I would probably still be wondering to
>  myself from time to time about J, but without the conviction
>  that it is suitable, or worth learning. Project Euler also
>  played a big part, and seems to be the main place where
>  people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those
>  conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I
>  am both extremely determined, and was able to complete
>  school projects with plenty of spare t

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Jose Mario Quintana]

> Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am
mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can

He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still contributes
to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is
noticeable sometimes).

> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation, in
the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware.

There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall
Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is now
(AFAIK) with...  Dyalog APL!  He also still contributes to the forum
occasionally.

I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago discussing,
while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to advance
in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly
under-utilized paradigm.  What was their conclusion?  It was hopeless to
try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they had
invested too much in an alternative paradigm.  However, they would
eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations.  (I doubt
the strategy was a new one.)

To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their
perspective.  At the very least you have provided a sample.  Thanks for
taking the time for doing so.

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure  wrote:

> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it
> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends
> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they
> are convinced of it's power.
>
> Epitech International
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> solidified its reputation ...
>
>
>
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the
> hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the
> time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure
> about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be
> suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the
> reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself
> from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable,
> or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be
> the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with
> those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both
> extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty
> of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the
> only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first
> few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in
> the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my
> statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more
> like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant
> because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with
> nor in charge of jsoftware.
>
> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source
> forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization
> for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times
> that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has
> even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious
> doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's
> existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
>
>
> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to
> make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to
> preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt
> sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed.
>
> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some
> people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of
> visiting it.
>
> 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q resources are extremely popular
> nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and will
> always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this prove
> unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has almost
> no presence 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:40 PM, james faure  wrote:
>I still am not comfortable recommending J to anyone at this time, there is too 
>much uncertainty about it's future. As a learning experience, J is extremely 
>instructive, but betting on it is far too risky.

J itself is available under the GPL, so I don't think you're
expressing a concern about the availability of the language.

Instead, this feels like the sort of thing people say because saying
this sort of thing is the thing to do (regardless of subject).

On a perhaps related note, there aren't a lot of people who actually
read Issac Newton's books (for example).

Or (for another example) a lot of what people call science is really
not based on reproducible experiments. But we're at least starting to
see some push-back on that issue:
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/make-replication-studies-normal-and-essential-part-science-dutch-science-academy-says

That said, there are problems that need solving.

But usefulness and popularity are often orthgonal.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul
--
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

Jig is a nice idea, but you read me spot on: I use only the jconsole, so I 
don't think I can give much meaningful insight there. For graphical J, I think 
the jhs is the right idea, webapps are nowadays taking the place of desktop 
based applications. To be honest though, I don't think it makes sense that J 
expend much effort on providing development environments, Everyone I work with 
ends up having different preferences and IDE's anyway, from vim through emacs, 
atom, komodo and vscode. The jconsole is the heart of J, and in my case the 
only thing I have ended up using (with vim).


The direct question about my learning style: I always start by finding a 
project, or some experiment I want to get done, and then make it happen. Thus I 
have a direct goal in mind to help focus my learning and a context in which to 
try to place the information I find in the manuals. I forgot to mention in my 
first post, what my mindset when learning J was. I was at the time planning to 
implement a language with llvm. Before trying to design a language (even a toy 
one), I wanted to research programming languages and try out as many different 
ones as possible. Enter J, and on the surface, J looked completely insane. 
Several days into learning J, my opinions were still reserved, and to be honest 
I didn't really believe it to be a serious language. Of coures, my object was 
to gain background information and understand the mistakes and ideas of the 
past, so I continued, and only now that I have penetrated deep enough, am I 
convinced of it's genius. So there it is, J has done a poor job of selling it's 
merits (perhaps the front page should have a title, and a front page listing 
reasons for 'why J?'). The reasons people have nowadays for not trusting J are 
very understandable, and due to many of the points I have raised, I still am 
not comfortable recommending J to anyone at this time, there is too much 
uncertainty about it's future. As a learning experience, J is extremely 
instructive, but betting on it is far too risky.


The console doesn't feel oldschool to me, in fact python, ruby etc.. don't even 
offer anything else. There are some oldschool aspects in the console though.


From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of robert therriault 
<bobtherria...@mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 5:52:01 AM
To: c...@jsoftware.com
Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

Hi J4,

You have raised a lot of points and hopefully they will become areas of 
discussion by those who are more qualified than myself. The areas that I have 
interest in are the presentation of information through the interactive 
environment and effective use of the labs as an interactive teaching tool.

It sounds to me as if you recognize the value of labs, but that they do not fit 
your learning style. Can you tell me a bit more about that? I am trying to 
determine what can distinguish effective labs from those that are less 
effective and your point of view on all labs may give me some ideas.

The jig addon in the jqt environment is an example of the sort of interactive 
environment augmentation that I have worked on. There is a short video  of the 
interface at  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiPWVhoX1Z8 and also a lab 
running through some of the features under the name "jig augmented display". 
You seem to prefer the stripped down environment of the console, but I wonder 
if it would be able to attract more users, as the console, although very 
powerful, does feel a bit old school.

And thanks for the effort of putting your extensive thoughts down on paper. My 
experience of the J community is that they will challenge you, but they are 
appreciative of the efforts all have put into developing the language - with 
your postings you are part of that process.

Cheers, bob

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 7:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:
>
> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it 
> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J 
> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first 
> hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J 
> and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech 
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are 
> convinced of it's power.
>
> Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech and 
> hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified 
> its reputation ...
>
>
>
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, I 
> will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope 
> that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must s

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Joe Bogner]

James,

Thank you for sharing and I'm glad this ended up in Chat. You mentioned
that you're young. You have decades to master J. I see that as an
advantage, not a disadvantage to a language. What fun is it to "learn X in
24 hours" ?

There are plenty of analogies to be made that could help explain the
learning curve of J. It's probably best to think of one that resonates for
you and for whom you're trying to explain it to.

For me, J is like skiing or cooking. I've been skiing for 10 years and I'd
still consider myself an "advanced beginner" compared to others I see. I've
been cooking for even more years and I'd still consider myself a relative
beginner.

The challenge and breadth of choice in those activities is what makes them
appealing. The same goes with J. I've been programming for two decades and
very few languages give me the same thrill as J.

I've been studying and using J for 4 years. It's not my preferred tool for
everything, but it's been great for analytic applications and prototyping.
I think it's important to find a place where J fits for you. Even though it
can do pretty much anything any other language can, it may not be the right
tool for you for every application.

By the way, another great resource to learn from is Rosettacode -
http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:J. The J community has done a
tremendous job showcasing how J solves those tasks

I think many of your points have some merit depending on who the target
user of J is. I didn't have an APL background when I started using J. I had
more of a C#/Javacript background. It was tough work to get started, but I
could see the potential benefit from the Essays and Rosettacode.

As a aside, perhaps there is a comparison to be made between Rust and J. I
haven't studied Rust intensively but I've heard it also has a high learning
curve too - https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-roadmap/issues/3

Joe



On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure  wrote:

> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it
> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J
> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends
> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they
> are convinced of it's power.
>
> Epitech International
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech
> and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has
> solidified its reputation ...
>
>
>
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in
> J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the
> hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the
> time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure
> about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be
> suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the
> reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself
> from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable,
> or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be
> the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with
> those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both
> extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty
> of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the
> only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first
> few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in
> the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my
> statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more
> like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant
> because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with
> nor in charge of jsoftware.
>
> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source
> forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization
> for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times
> that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has
> even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious
> doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's
> existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
>
>
> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to
> make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to
> preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt
> sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[Raul Miller]

I see a few things here which represent positive goals (7, 8, 10).
The rest seem to implicitly assume other work has been completed and
proven good enough which, to my knowledge, no one has even started on.

That said, we probably should get in the habit of tagging our J
related stuff with "jlang" and "jprogramming" for the benefit of
search engines.

...

We could also use a new meme to fill the role of the old "Death of the
internet predicted. Film at 11."

...

Anyways...

What I'd be doing, instead, to address J community population issues,
is write things which are of generic use for the sort of people that I
think I'd want in the community. This would gradually pull in a few of
them, and maybe some of them or some of their newer members might be
inclined to improve things further.

(We'd probably also get a some unhappy sorts, some impatient sorts,
and so on... basically only a fraction of the adopters of the tool(s)
would want to join the community. Everyone has their own priorities.)

I'm not sure J's stable enough, yet, for that kind of work, though.
For example, several of the projects I have in mind would depend on
opengl bindings, at least one of them would use xml, an so on.

(So, from my point of view, some of the efforts advocated here would
actually detract from efforts that put us where I'd like to be.)

That said, the changes being introduced in j807 are exciting (for
example, it might be reasonable soon to write a native J xml parser
instead of having to rely on sax like we used to - there's a lot of
work there, as xml is a huge standard, but I could start by writing a
parser which handles the xml subset I need and maybe let someone else
take it from there).

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


...




On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure  wrote:
> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it 
> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J 
> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first 
> hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J 
> and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech 
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are 
> convinced of it's power.
>
> Epitech International
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech and 
> hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified 
> its reputation ...
>
>
>
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, I 
> will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope 
> that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time 
> that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about 
> whether the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable to 
> do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am 
> here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time to 
> time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth 
> learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main 
> place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those 
> conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely 
> determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare 
> time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person 
> who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first few steps. The 
> learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of this 
> decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, 
> so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for help on 
> J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant because of my convictions. I 
> am well aware that I am not affiliated with nor in charge of jsoftware.
>
> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source forum 
> about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for such a 
> simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that extended 
> precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even threatened 
> my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's ability 
> to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's 
> complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
>
>
> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to make 
> google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface every 
> google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt sufficiently annoying 
> to put off many people. The language must be renamed.
>
> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some 
> people I have shown J to abandonned the 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

['Jon Hough' via Chat]

I think you make some good points, and it is worth introspecting J's current 
position. I don't think J will ever be a mainstream language, and it should 
never be intended to be so. 
Some quick comments on some of your points:

0: I never understood why the name J was chosen. It is search engine 
unfriendly. However, what's done is done, and you can always use "jlang" in 
searches. Renaming the language
would cause too much confusion. Besides J is in good company (C,D,K,R).

1: jsoftware's homepage is pretty dreary looking, and it could do with a 
facelift (even just using bootstrap.js would help). I would gladly help out if 
needed. The J Dictionary is 
incredibly difficult to use. I find it is easiest to do everything through 
Nuvoc and the thru to dictionary link. Without Nuvoc I would be lost.

6: I love the labs... when they work, which is another issue. It seems J is 
moving pretty fast and some things are getting left behind. This is excusable 
as J's community is so small.

7: I agree. this should be on, or near, jsoftware's front page. 

9: Error messages are often not particularly helpful, but I usually find the 
error itself is easy to spot once the error message is shown. Also the dissect 
tool is very good at figuring out
where errors are.

J has a small community, but it is hardly dead. And J is still useful. I 
absolutely prefer using J to other similar tools (numpy, R). It is also 
infuriating, and lack of libraries makes
some tasks that would be simple in other languages, very difficult in J. 

If I were to suggest J were to head in any direction now, it would be to add 
CUDA / GPU bindings to allow J to use fast array ops on GPUs. I know Pascal 
wrote ArrayFire bindings a while
back [0]. It would also be good for J to have some sort of Machine Learning 
framework. I think "frameworks" in general, are anathema to the APL/J way of 
doing things. i.e. you are supposed to 
make your own "framework" from the primitives, but other than some enthusiasts, 
the great mass of programmers don't have time, or care to do this.

[0] https://github.com/Pascal-J

On Thu, 3/1/18, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote:

 Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ?
 To: "c...@jsoftware.com" <c...@jsoftware.com>
 Date: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 11:40 AM
 
 Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to
 steer it's current course, it will be quickly forgotten.
 Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if
 I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from
 first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to
 interest my friends in J and in fact have yet to get a
 single other person from Epitech http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, 
even
 though I believe they are convinced of it's power.
 
 Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/>
 international.epitech.eu
 Dear International Students, We will be
 happy to welcome you to Epitech and hope you will enjoy this
 unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified its
 reputation ...
 
 
 
 Since I seem to be by far the youngest
 person with a serious interest in J, I will try to explain
 my understanding of the current situation, in the hope that
 it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between
 the time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I
 was extremely unsure about whether the language would have a
 future and whether it would be suitable to do everything.
 Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am
 here, without it I would probably still be wondering to
 myself from time to time about J, but without the conviction
 that it is suitable, or worth learning. Project Euler also
 played a big part, and seems to be the main place where
 people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those
 conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I
 am both extremely determined, and was able to complete
 school projects with plenty of spare time. I have shown J to
 many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person who
 uses it, most of those people never made it past the first
 few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must
 be done so in the style of this decade. As an aside, on
 proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, so
 please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a
 plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me
 arrogant because of my convictions. I am well aware that I
 am not affiliated with nor in charge of jsoftware.
 
 My initial statement at the beginning
 of the long thread in the source forum about generators
 expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for such a
 simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple
 times that extended precision calculations are simply far
 too slow, and this has even threatened my desire to continue
 with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's ability to
 satisf

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[robert therriault]

Whoops, the magic of Youtube gave me the wrong link for the video teaser of 
jig. Here is the correct one. https://youtu.be/dK1y_V07214

Cheers, bob

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:52 PM, robert therriault  wrote:
> 
> Hi J4,
> 
> You have raised a lot of points and hopefully they will become areas of 
> discussion by those who are more qualified than myself. The areas that I have 
> interest in are the presentation of information through the interactive 
> environment and effective use of the labs as an interactive teaching tool. 
> 
> It sounds to me as if you recognize the value of labs, but that they do not 
> fit your learning style. Can you tell me a bit more about that? I am trying 
> to determine what can distinguish effective labs from those that are less 
> effective and your point of view on all labs may give me some ideas.
> 
> The jig addon in the jqt environment is an example of the sort of interactive 
> environment augmentation that I have worked on. There is a short video  of 
> the interface at  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiPWVhoX1Z8 and also a lab 
> running through some of the features under the name "jig augmented display". 
> You seem to prefer the stripped down environment of the console, but I wonder 
> if it would be able to attract more users, as the console, although very 
> powerful, does feel a bit old school. 
> 
> And thanks for the effort of putting your extensive thoughts down on paper. 
> My experience of the J community is that they will challenge you, but they 
> are appreciative of the efforts all have put into developing the language - 
> with your postings you are part of that process.
> 
> Cheers, bob
> 
>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 7:40 PM, james faure  wrote:
>> 
>> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it 
>> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J 
>> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from 
>> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends 
>> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech 
>> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are 
>> convinced of it's power.
>> 
>> Epitech International
>> international.epitech.eu
>> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech and 
>> hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified 
>> its reputation ...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, 
>> I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope 
>> that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time 
>> that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about 
>> whether the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable to 
>> do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am 
>> here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time to 
>> time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth 
>> learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main 
>> place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those 
>> conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely 
>> determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare 
>> time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person 
>> who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first few steps. 
>> The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of 
>> this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are 
>> harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for 
>> help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant because of my 
>> convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with nor in charge of 
>> jsoftware.
>> 
>> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source forum 
>> about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for such 
>> a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that extended 
>> precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even threatened 
>> my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's ability 
>> to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's 
>> complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
>> 
>> 
>> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to 
>> make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface 
>> every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt sufficiently 
>> annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed.
>> 
>> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some 
>> people I have 

Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ?

[robert therriault]

Hi J4,

You have raised a lot of points and hopefully they will become areas of 
discussion by those who are more qualified than myself. The areas that I have 
interest in are the presentation of information through the interactive 
environment and effective use of the labs as an interactive teaching tool. 

It sounds to me as if you recognize the value of labs, but that they do not fit 
your learning style. Can you tell me a bit more about that? I am trying to 
determine what can distinguish effective labs from those that are less 
effective and your point of view on all labs may give me some ideas.

The jig addon in the jqt environment is an example of the sort of interactive 
environment augmentation that I have worked on. There is a short video  of the 
interface at  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiPWVhoX1Z8 and also a lab 
running through some of the features under the name "jig augmented display". 
You seem to prefer the stripped down environment of the console, but I wonder 
if it would be able to attract more users, as the console, although very 
powerful, does feel a bit old school. 

And thanks for the effort of putting your extensive thoughts down on paper. My 
experience of the J community is that they will challenge you, but they are 
appreciative of the efforts all have put into developing the language - with 
your postings you are part of that process.

Cheers, bob

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 7:40 PM, james faure  wrote:
> 
> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it 
> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J 
> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first 
> hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J 
> and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech 
> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are 
> convinced of it's power.
> 
> Epitech International
> international.epitech.eu
> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech and 
> hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified 
> its reputation ...
> 
> 
> 
> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, I 
> will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope 
> that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time 
> that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about 
> whether the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable to 
> do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am 
> here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time to 
> time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth 
> learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main 
> place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those 
> conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely 
> determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare 
> time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person 
> who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first few steps. The 
> learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of this 
> decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, 
> so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for help on 
> J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant because of my convictions. I 
> am well aware that I am not affiliated with nor in charge of jsoftware.
> 
> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source forum 
> about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for such a 
> simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that extended 
> precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even threatened 
> my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's ability 
> to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's 
> complete failure to keep up with modern trends:
> 
> 
> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to make 
> google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface every 
> google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt sufficiently annoying 
> to put off many people. The language must be renamed.
> 
> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some 
> people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of 
> visiting it.
> 
> 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q resources are extremely popular 
> nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and will 
> always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this prove 
> unsuccessful, they are often much less 

[Jchat] Where is J going ?

[james faure]

Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it will 
be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me 
if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first hand 
experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J and in 
fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech 
http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are 
convinced of it's power.

Epitech International
international.epitech.eu
Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech and 
hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified its 
reputation ...



Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, I 
will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope that 
it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time that I 
heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about whether 
the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable to do 
everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am here, 
without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time to time 
about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth learning. 
Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main place where 
people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those conditions being met, 
If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely determined, and was able 
to complete school projects with plenty of spare time. I have shown J to many 
people at Epitech, but I remain the only person who uses it, most of those 
people never made it past the first few steps. The learning curve has to be 
reduced, and it must be done so in the style of this decade. As an aside, on 
proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they 
are not criticisms, more like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not 
think me arrogant because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not 
affiliated with nor in charge of jsoftware.

My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source forum 
about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for such a 
simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that extended 
precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even threatened my 
desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's ability to 
satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's complete 
failure to keep up with modern trends:


0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to make 
google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface every 
google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt sufficiently annoying to 
put off many people. The language must be renamed.

1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some 
people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of visiting 
it.

2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q resources are extremely popular 
nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and will always 
try to formulate their question to google first. Should this prove 
unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has almost no 
presence on SO.

3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an abherration: 
nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate this and 
that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have much more 
logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given logical names like 
'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace is a miniscule one. I 
also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like '2 o. y', and '6!:2' etc.. 
but for that to happen, these need standard default names, even multiple 
aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the miniscule performance loss associated 
with having multiple equivalent names, the possibility of guessingand have it 
work anyway is far more important.

4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should certainly not 
depend on strict formulation rules in order to run optimally

5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in keeping 
with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I very much 
appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, but the 
website's overall presentation is not good.

6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs, (not my 
learning style but for sure they are valuable)

7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, on 
jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd party 
https://tio.run/#j

This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently hooked in 
within 5