RE: multicast address [7:50221]
The RFC would be a great place to check :) RIPv2 uses 224.0.0.9 RFC 2453 IGRP is Cisco's baby. I'd search cisco.com -Original Message- From: GEORGE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: multicast address [7:50221] Where can I find the multicast address , rip, irgp use.? I know Ospf is 224.0.5 224.0.6 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=50226t=50221 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Specify DNS on a Router ... [7:48009]
IP Domain-Lookup IP Name-Server 192.168.97.1 IP Domain-Name Domain.com -Original Message- From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Specify DNS on a Router ... [7:48009] Hi all ... Quick easy question to you all ... can and how do you specify what DNS server to use on a router ??? Regards Paul ... Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=48023t=48009 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSPF area 0 [7:45995]
The network doesn't totally hose. Basically you get a second backbone. This leads to basically two different networks. In the example you provided, The backbone is still contiguous An example or where this might occur would be __ Area | |--- --|__|C B | A | Area 0 _| __ | | | |Area 2 |__|---|__|-- DE If the connectivity on link A went down, Area 0 then becomes divided, creating 2 separate networks 1) consists of subnet B, C, and possibly A 2) consists of D, E and possibly A possibly A is determined by what broke the connectivity. OSPF still functions, it just changes its behavior to accommodate the new topology. -Original Message- From: Carroll Kong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 7:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OSPF area 0 [7:45995] If I remember correctly, yes, Area 0 routers must always have a way to connect to each other. It does not have to be a full mesh (if that is what you mean by contiguous). Three routers in a mesh would be fine if one link broke. Now, if an area 0 router loses all connectivity to the other Area 0s (in your case, isolate one point of the triangle by losing TWO links), then your network gets borked. You will need a virtual link (if at all possible), or... well... your network is broken? :) Hi group, Is there any condition that OSPF area 0 must be contiguous?. I remembered read this some where on CCO. Is this true?. For a situation, three ospf routers connected in a triangle shape, what if one of the link goes down?. Any one experienced on this situation, please show me some documents related to this?. Thanks in advance, J. - Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Carroll Kong Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=46051t=45995 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Puzzles - WAS RE: My interview story [7:40553]
Correct -Original Message- From: John Allhiser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 6:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Puzzles - WAS RE: My interview story [7:40553] The first one is simple if you relate it to public key sharing in network security. Place the diamond in the box. Secure the box with your lock. Send it to your friend. So far, it's safe from the courier. When your friend receives the box, she secures the box with her lock and sends it back to you. Still safe. You remove your lock and send it back to her. Still safe. She removes her lock and retrieves the diamond. All of this is done without the use of relatively prime numbers. ;o) The second puzzle has already been answered using the details given --- 0'-32' -Original Message- From: Dusty Harper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: My interview story [7:40553] The goal is to determine how you think. Most real world solutions to problems can be applied to technological hurdles, or problems. As an example: Prep: You have an empty box, a lock, a key for your lock, and a diamond. Your friend has an empty box, and a lock for his box. Goal: You want to get the diamond to your friend via courier. However the courier will steal anything that is not locked. How do you do this? Another example: If you have 2 20' poles, a 32' rope strung between them, and the lowest point of the rope is 4' off of the ground, how far apart are the poles? It gauges how one thinks and handles situations. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40848t=40553 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Puzzles - WAS RE: My interview story [7:40553]
Actually 0' is physically impossible due to the width of the rope needing to be taken into account, but that's just a technicality. -Original Message- From: Craig Columbus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 9:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Puzzles - WAS RE: My interview story [7:40553] Part A: I heard this one where the friend also has a key that will open his lock, but not yours. Also, the condition is that no destructive techniques are allowed, so breaking or cutting wasn't a possible solution. Part B: He never states that the rope is attached to the top of the pole, just that it's attached to the pole. So, the answer is that the poles are somewhere between 0 and 32 feet apart. Craig At 11:33 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, you wrote: I'll bite. a) Boxes and diamond. Gordian Knot technique. Lock the diamond in your box and send it to your friend. He breaks the lock or cuts open the box. b) Poles and rope. The poles are touching. -Original Message- From: Dusty Harper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: My interview story [7:40553] The goal is to determine how you think. Most real world solutions to problems can be applied to technological hurdles, or problems. As an example: Prep: You have an empty box, a lock, a key for your lock, and a diamond. Your friend has an empty box, and a lock for his box. Goal: You want to get the diamond to your friend via courier. However the courier will steal anything that is not locked. How do you do this? Another example: If you have 2 20' poles, a 32' rope strung between them, and the lowest point of the rope is 4' off of the ground, how far apart are the poles? It gauges how one thinks and handles situations. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=40849t=40553 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: My interview story [7:40553]
I haven't heard of any role-playing, but Microsoft does implement logic puzzles into the interviews, which are usually connected with 3 or more people individually. The goal is to determine how you think. Most real world solutions to problems can be applied to technological hurdles, or problems. As an example: Prep: You have an empty box, a lock, a key for your lock, and a diamond. Your friend has an empty box, and a lock for his box. Goal: You want to get the diamond to your friend via courier. However the courier will steal anything that is not locked. How do you do this? Another example: If you have 2 20' poles, a 32' rope strung between them, and the lowest point of the rope is 4' off of the ground, how far apart are the poles? It gauges how one thinks and handles situations. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 12:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: My interview story [7:40553] Strange and silly as some of these games seem, it is often the case that many high-profile companies, tech or otherwise, incorporate these games into their hiring processes. Microsoft in the old days, for example, used to make extensive use of this kind of game role-playing in their interviews (don't know whether they do that anymore). Oracle too (one possibly apocryphal story - when Oracle was starting out, Oracle would ask a candidates who were coming straight out of college whether he was the smartest student he knew, if the candidate answered 'yes', then the candidate qualified for a round-2 interview, but if the candidate said no, then Oracle would ask then if you're not the smartest student you know, then who is, and then they would try to hire that person). Management consultancies and Wall-Street investment banks are also notorious for this as well. You may say to yourself that these games are ridiculous and ask yourself why you have to jump through these silly hoops, and how management is dumb for forcing candidates to go through these games, and yes that's true, but sometimes the position is worth it. I for one definitely wouldn't have minded getting into Microsoft in, say, 1990. John Neiberger wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... That reminds me of what happened to the husband of a coworker. He worked for a division of GE and they had some social engineering week where everyone was supposed to wear the same colored T-shirt each day. For example, the first day everyone wears red. The second day they all were green, etc. Ugh... Aren't we here to do actual work and not waste time on this garbage? I think I'd wear black all week. ;-) Or, I might wear white claiming that white reflects all colors of the rainbow and I'm therefore it is the best choice of color for a politically correct wardrobe. I definitely would NOT rush out to buy a bunch of T-shirts just to satisfy such a silly requirement. I must reiterate that it is VERY dangerous for managers to have too much spare time! John Priscilla Oppenheimer 4/5/02 12:13:52 PM Catbert has a little too much power in that department at Schlumberger. I would tell them to go take a hike. ;-) If they interview with games like that, think about what else they might make you do: 1) Go on team-building excursions while the mission-critical network is failing 2) Promise never to flirt with any of your co-workers 3) Attend monthly meetings that will help you learn how never to flirt with your co-workers 4) Pee in a cup while an HR flunky stands outside the stall 5) Get the company's mission statement tattooed on your chest 6) Agree to dress casually on just one day of the week (Friday) 7) Add 300-word messages to the bottom of all e-mails saying that the company can't be held accountable for what you say 8) Provide information on every pimple you ever had so that company insurance can say it was a pre-existing condition 9) Provide information about your personal insurance so if you have an accident while on a business trip the company can avoid incurring costs 10) Promise never to use words that HR doesn't understand but thinks sound vaguely illegal, such as pedagogical The last one really happened! See here: http://www.britishexpat.com/pfun/madoffice.htm Priscilla At 10:32 AM 4/5/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with the summary, the desert game is used to develop team skills and inspire group communication allowing employees who are not outspoken to share in the decision making process. But this should not have been used as a 'one test' for hire decision. If that is so, the Human Resources dept has made errors that will eventually bring the effectiveness of the company/unit to zero, when that happens, higher ups will take a look and heads will roll. but the process can be too long. Mark should be glad he didn't get the job. Have
RE: My interview story [7:40553]
I haven't heard of any role-playing, but Microsoft does implement logic puzzles into the interviews, which are usually connected with 3 or more people individually. The goal is to determine how you think. Most real world solutions to problems can be applied to technological hurdles, or problems. As an example: Prep: You have an empty box, a lock, a key for your lock, and a diamond. Your friend has an empty box, a lock, and a key for his lock. Goal: You want to get the diamond to your friend via courier. However the courier will steal anything that is not locked. How do you do this? Another example: If you have 2 20' poles, a 32' rope strung between them, and the lowest point of the rope is 4' off of the ground, how far apart are the poles? It gauges how one thinks and handles situations. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 12:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: My interview story [7:40553] Strange and silly as some of these games seem, it is often the case that many high-profile companies, tech or otherwise, incorporate these games into their hiring processes. Microsoft in the old days, for example, used to make extensive use of this kind of game role-playing in their interviews (don't know whether they do that anymore). Oracle too (one possibly apocryphal story - when Oracle was starting out, Oracle would ask a candidates who were coming straight out of college whether he was the smartest student he knew, if the candidate answered 'yes', then the candidate qualified for a round-2 interview, but if the candidate said no, then Oracle would ask then if you're not the smartest student you know, then who is, and then they would try to hire that person). Management consultancies and Wall-Street investment banks are also notorious for this as well. You may say to yourself that these games are ridiculous and ask yourself why you have to jump through these silly hoops, and how management is dumb for forcing candidates to go through these games, and yes that's true, but sometimes the position is worth it. I for one definitely wouldn't have minded getting into Microsoft in, say, 1990. John Neiberger wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... That reminds me of what happened to the husband of a coworker. He worked for a division of GE and they had some social engineering week where everyone was supposed to wear the same colored T-shirt each day. For example, the first day everyone wears red. The second day they all were green, etc. Ugh... Aren't we here to do actual work and not waste time on this garbage? I think I'd wear black all week. ;-) Or, I might wear white claiming that white reflects all colors of the rainbow and I'm therefore it is the best choice of color for a politically correct wardrobe. I definitely would NOT rush out to buy a bunch of T-shirts just to satisfy such a silly requirement. I must reiterate that it is VERY dangerous for managers to have too much spare time! John Priscilla Oppenheimer 4/5/02 12:13:52 PM Catbert has a little too much power in that department at Schlumberger. I would tell them to go take a hike. ;-) If they interview with games like that, think about what else they might make you do: 1) Go on team-building excursions while the mission-critical network is failing 2) Promise never to flirt with any of your co-workers 3) Attend monthly meetings that will help you learn how never to flirt with your co-workers 4) Pee in a cup while an HR flunky stands outside the stall 5) Get the company's mission statement tattooed on your chest 6) Agree to dress casually on just one day of the week (Friday) 7) Add 300-word messages to the bottom of all e-mails saying that the company can't be held accountable for what you say 8) Provide information on every pimple you ever had so that company insurance can say it was a pre-existing condition 9) Provide information about your personal insurance so if you have an accident while on a business trip the company can avoid incurring costs 10) Promise never to use words that HR doesn't understand but thinks sound vaguely illegal, such as pedagogical The last one really happened! See here: http://www.britishexpat.com/pfun/madoffice.htm Priscilla At 10:32 AM 4/5/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with the summary, the desert game is used to develop team skills and inspire group communication allowing employees who are not outspoken to share in the decision making process. But this should not have been used as a 'one test' for hire decision. If that is so, the Human Resources dept has made errors that will eventually bring the effectiveness of the company/unit to zero, when that happens, higher ups will take a look and heads will roll. but the process can be too long. Mark should be glad he didn't get the job.
RE: CCNP v3.0 [7:37500]
The beta exams are mostly slotted for 3 hours. I took the CCNA 2.0 beta a year or so back and was done in a little over an hour -Original Message- From: Byron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 3:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCNP v3.0 [7:37500] any confirmation on the time? i plan to take it next week. byron - Original Message - From: EMW_Tech To: Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:51 PM Subject: Re: CCNP v3.0 [7:37500] I'm taking the Routing Beta tomorrow. Is it really 3 hours instead of 1 hour And was it three hours? _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=37606t=37500 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSPF - Type 4 [7:36358]
By cisco default type 3 and 4 are flooded into the stub area If you configure the area as stub no-summary, then the summary routes are not flooded into the stub. The stub only needs to know its internal area routes, and can access everything else via the default route 0.0.0.0. The type 4 LSA advertises all ASBRs into other areas (unless the ASBR exists in the area being flooded). They point to the Router ID of the ASBR(s). -Original Message- From: Venkataramanaiah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OSPF - Type 4 [7:36358] Hi all, I was wondering what is the use of type 4 LSA when the reachability to ASBR is possible using the Type 3 LSA information. Also I would like to know whether Type 4 is flooded into a Stub area. Can someone clarify. Regards -Venkat __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=36411t=36358 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Meeting Affordable Classes [7:36344]
1. Dusty 2. CCIE 3. Blue... no... wait... Green... (Its only a flesh wound) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 4:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Meeting Affordable Classes [7:36344] If Howard is going to be at the meeting, then everyone attending must be asked the following questions to gain entrance: 1. What is your name? 2. What is your quest? 3. What is your favorite color?? :-) You, sirrah, will have to buy a shrubbery. Bruce Evry 2/25/02 3:51:53 PM Dear Kevin and Everyone Else, Afraid I got caught in a time warp, the message got posted a day after the meeting. Oh well We will try once again - This coming Saturday, March 2, 2002. Time: Noon to 4 PM. Place: Bruce's House (under construction...) 1607 Thomas Road, Fort Washington, Maryland 20744 Howard Berkowitz may be making a special guest appearance and we may get to log into 2 remote CCIE Labs to finally answer the question of what is the WORST possible way to redistribute OSPF and IGRP! Everyone is invited. Our group is informal and there are no fees, dues, or secret handshakes to learn. All you need is an interest in Cisco. (of course bringing snacks and sodas is always encouraged!) Bring laptops and gear if you have them. If not bring yourself! Do try and let me know how many people are coming so I can get an appropriate amount of food. (my treat but donations are accepted) Yours Truly - Bruce Evry On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Kevin Wigle wrote: guess you didn't want a big turn out since I see it says sent Sunday, 24 Feb - Original Message - From: Bruce Evry To: Sent: Sunday, 24 February, 2002 10:57 Subject: Cisco Meeting Affordable Classes [7:36344] Dear Friends, After taking the month of January off, we are going to hold the next meeting/luncheon of the Washington DC group this coming Saturday. Saturday, February 23, 2002 Time 10 am to 4 pm Place - Bruce's House with newly rebuilt Garage! 1607 Thomas Road, Fort Washington, MD 20744 Please bring Laptops, Snacks, Sodas, Desserts and of course Routers and Switches. This session we will be doing OSPF and IGRP redistribution the hard way. Figure it's about time we kill this thing and nail down the lid to its coffin... :) Speaking of learning Cisco stuff, I want to thank all of you who sent such nice replies to my question about affordable training. I would like to offer interested folks the chance to come visit us here at my house for a week and to do total-immersion Cisco Study. This will be geared toward the CCIE Practical Lab. Monday will be about designing your very own lab. Then on Tuesday through Friday you get to build your lab! (and try others as well) Topics covered will include Ethernet, Token Ring, Frame Relay, ISDN, ATM, Voice, along with all our favorite routing protocols, RIP, IGRP, EIGRP, OSPF, and BGP. Bonus extras include NAT, PAT, HSRP, HTTP, NTP, SMTP, and FOOD! This offer includes room and board for those of you who are out of town. Please contact me for details and pricing. (it'll be reasonable!) Home Phone 301-292-5231 Cell Phone 202-262-5324 E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yours Truly - Bruce Evry and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=36453t=36344 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSPF DR problem [7:34379]
I'm not going to argue with Chuck whether it's valid or not valid to split areas (because yes Chuck is correct, it is valid). From a network design perspective, it's bad enough for the use of a Virtual Link, but splitting the Areas is totally unnecessary. A colleague of mine has the term Network Masturbation for designs like these. Basically by breaking the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) you are just begging for trouble. Just by taking a look at the network layout as it is, my suggestion was to change the Frame Relay Area 1 to a different Area (Area 3). This still allowed for the test of the Virtual Link, and constituted a better designed network. What you didn't see were my direct responses to Priscilla referring to examining the different topological databases to see exactly where these links were and whether the next logical phase of an LSA was being performed. (LSA Types 1 and 2 shows the link in Area 0, are LSA type 3's getting sent into Area 1 and 2 with the information...) -Original Message- From: s vermill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OSPF DR problem [7:34379] Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Remember, I think from a design point of view. I say for some reason there's an Area 2 because I think it's a bad design not because I was surprised to see it there in the show output. ;-) Well that certainly makes sense. I thought you were surprised by the area because you were using a remote practice lab and weren't certain of the state of the entire network. Nevermind. But thanks for replying, because it made me question my expectations. Here's what part of the network design looks like: ---R2---Area-1-ISDNR8---Area-1-Ethernet | Area 0 | Ethernet | | ---R1---Area-1-Frame Relay---R9---Area-2-Ethernet There was some back and forth about whether or not the partitioned area 1 was a problem. I think Moy says it best (RFC 2178, pgs 33 34)... (to save myself some typing, the discussion is centered on areas as being different colors, all meeting up with the edge of the backbone) ...When the AS topology changes, one of the areas may become partitioned. The graph of the AS will then have multiple regions of the same color (area ID). The routing in the Autonomous System will continue to function as long as these regions of the same color are connected by the single backbone region. When I did a show ip route on R9 and R8 I thought I would see the Ethernet LAN in Area 0. That was not a logical expectation? I should just see a default route on ABRs? Unless configured as stub areas (which would preclude using them as transit areas), I would think you should see the topology of the backbone. Unfortunately, the RFC only addresses virtual links as a means to repair a partitioned backbone. It does not address providing bacbone connectivity to a non-backbone area. Nor does the RFC discuss demand circuits, which, of course, is a Cisco implementation. So there may very well be a gottcha in there that simply isn't addressed in the official OSPF documentation. I guess the answer will most likely be revealed when you revisit the remote lab and do some magic with debug and show. Regards, Scott Thanks. Priscilla Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=34557t=34379 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSPF DR problem [7:34379]
That network design is horrendous. The only way you'd see a default route is if 1) you were advertising one, or 2) you set up stub networks. I think the problem is the Area Configuration. Area 1 is discontiguous. I bet if you change the Frame Relay Area number to 2, you'll have no problem -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OSPF DR problem [7:34379] Remember, I think from a design point of view. I say for some reason there's an Area 2 because I think it's a bad design not because I was surprised to see it there in the show output. ;-) But thanks for replying, because it made me question my expectations. Here's what part of the network design looks like: ---R2---Area-1-ISDNR8---Area-1-Ethernet | Area 0 | Ethernet | | ---R1---Area-1-Frame Relay---R9---Area-2-Ethernet When I did a show ip route on R9 and R8 I thought I would see the Ethernet LAN in Area 0. That was not a logical expectation? I should just see a default route on ABRs? Thanks. Priscilla At 07:09 PM 2/4/02, s vermill wrote: Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: There was a virtual link. The virtual link was from R1 over to another router across the Frame Relay cloud. R1 is an ABR connecting Area 0 and Area 1. Area 0 is the Ethernet LAN. Area 1 is the Frame Relay cloud. For some unknown reason, there's an Area 2 also on the other side of Area 1. Does that ring a bell regarding any gotchas? Priscilla, There must be at least three areas involved in a virtual link. So I am intrigued by the phantom area 2. What area were you expecting to see on the other side of area 1? In your case, it seems as if the ABRs are directly connected. That is to say, the transit area is in essence a p-t-p connection. That isn't always necessarily the case so I don't think OSPF makes any kind of distinction. As I understand it, the virtual connection/tunnel is treated like an unnumbered one. So the network statements have to be in place for the transit area in both routers, area 0 in the backbone ABR, and the discontiguous area in the discontiguous ABR. So that is the basis for my interest in your phantom area 2. Of course, this doesn't seem to be in any way related to why you wouldn't be able to see the area 0 network across the ISDN connection. The interesting parallel is that virtual links and demand circuits are both treated the same. That is, the DNA bit is set for routes learned via either one. So is there anything in your setup not consistent with having DNA show up in the topo table? I can't imagine what but I have never tried anything like your setup. Tough one! Scott Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=34425t=34379 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSPF DR problem [7:34379]
Maybe Discontiguous is the wrong word for it.The problem I see with this design is that there is basically 2 Area 1s. The point -to- point connections would be fine, however in order for the Areas to function properly they need to know of each other ( all of Area 1 as a whole needs to know of the other) This is done via LSA Types 1 and 2. I know the reasoning for the Area 2, however I still stand behind the notion that if you were to change the Frame-Relay Area to 3 your problem would be solved You might also get around this by changing from point to point to a non-broadcast environment and specify all of your neighbors Router IDs' : R1 (S0) R2(BRI0) R9(S0) and R8(BRI0) on each of the routers. -Original Message- From: Chuck Larrieu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Mon 2/4/2002 8:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: OSPF DR problem [7:34379] Cil, I drew this one out a little differently just to put a fresh perspective on it. Without seeing the requirements of the particular practice lab you are using, it's hard to say why you were seeing or not seeing what you did. area 0 -- || R1R2 || frame relay area 1 ISDN area 1 || R9R8 || -- - area 2 The discontiguous area 1's are irrelevant unless there is overlapping addressing. The area 2 is placed the way it is in order to force the creation of a virtual link - common in practice labs and study materials, as all us CCIE candidates know full well ;- I am inferring from other comments in other posts that you needed to use the IP ospf priority command on the R2 ethernet because the requirement is that R1 is the DR in area 0. So, given what I see ( not knowing the particulars of your addressing and various other things, there is no good reason why R9 and R8 should not see the ethernet network that is area 0. Along the trail of broken things, I have sometimes run across bizarre issues which are solved only by reloading routers. My humble pod of 2501's running enterprise 12.1.11 code sometimes have bizarre problems. I have a theory that these bloatware images just barely operate within the confined spaces of 16 megs of DRAM and sometimes you have to clear it out. I have had bizarre things happen when configuring and unconfiguring various routing protocols and features. Sometimes, admittedly, mistakes happen when you are tired, and you can't see straight to correct errors you have made. But other times, reloads have made magic happen. I am at the point where I am thinking about backloading to an IOS build that takes less space, just to see if the occasional weirdness disappears. Again, based upon what I have seen throughout this thread, and given that your areas and other configurations are correct, I see no reason why the area 0 network should not be visible from R9 and R8. Chuck PS as has been discussed here and elsewhere many a time, good practice and good design have little in common with the CCIE Lab ;- PPS which practice lab are you looking at? I have NLI, IPExpert, and SolutionLabs at my disposal. Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Remember, I think from a design point of view. I say for some reason there's an Area 2 because I think it's a bad design not because I was surprised to see it there in the show output. ;-) But thanks for replying, because it made me question my expectations. Here's what part of the network design looks like: ---R2---Area-1-ISDNR8---Area-1-Ethernet | Area 0 | Ethernet | | ---R1---Area-1-Frame Relay---R9---Area-2-Ethernet When I did a show ip route on R9 and R8 I thought I would see the Ethernet LAN in Area 0. That was not a logical expectation? I should just see a default route on ABRs? Thanks. Priscilla At 07:09 PM 2/4/02, s vermill wrote: Priscilla
Cisco's RIP Implementation [7:26028]
I was curious if anyone else has seen the following behavior with Cisco's RIP implementation =20 On IOS 12(1)5 and IOS 12(1)8 on a 3662 and a 4500 M I see RIP breaking RFC 1723 section 3.1 =20 I have authentication enabled. =20 Result: The router sends a packet with the authentication entry and 25 route entries =20 Expected: The router should send a packet with an authentication entry and 24 routes. =20 =20 If anyone could provide me a sniff for similar behavior on other models of routers, and different IOS' I'd be much grateful (or even from different vendos) =20 =20 Thanks Dusty Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=26028t=26028 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3660 router [7:11917]
I had a Cisco reseller ship a single 256 MB module in my 3662. The router can only handle 2 128 MB modules Worth a try -Original Message- From: Byron Bean [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: 3660 router [7:11917] Don't know what's going on with yours, but we had the same problem with a 3660 and it was the memory. Are you getting any sort of error message when it boots? Our's said that the Image checksum didn't match the expected value. TAC seemed to know the problem right away and sent us out new memory overnight. That fixed the problem right up. The only thing I can think of is that they may have sent you another bad set of mem when the swapped it for you. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. I'll see if the person here who called TAC got any more ideas out of Cisco and get back to you if there are any other known issues that cause this problem. Byron Bean, CCNA From: Mears, Rob Reply-To: Mears, Rob To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: 3660 router [7:11917] Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:32:43 -0400 Any one ever had a problem loading IOS on a 3660 right out of the box? I have one with 64meg flash and 256 ram and the damn thing will not come out of RMMON. I have set the confreg to boot correctly still RMMON. I have flashed it with two different IOS (12112.2), swapped out Flash, MEM, even sent the chassis back to Cisco and the new one had the same problem. TAC has no clue, they have been sending me part and giving me to different Engineer with no luck. What gives? Rob _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12029t=11917 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSPF - Cool + an area question [7:11861]
Most people that I know (including Microsoft's Routing Lab scenario) just use a single number. Starting with Area 0, then Area 1, Area 2 -Original Message- From: Ole Drews Jensen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 07:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OSPF - Cool + an area question [7:11861] This is cool! I just love to read about a lot of boring stuff in a book, sit down and try it, and then find out that everything I just read was actually true, and that it makes perfect sense. I just took three of my routers and one by one enabled OSPF on one interface at a time, and after each configuration, I went ahead and did a 'show ip ospf int' to see what actually was going on, and was happy to see that it was what I had expected to happen, because I had just read about it in my book. That's the fun part of studying - I wish that would have been the same case with all the M$ stuff I studied years ago :-( Anyway, I do have one OSPF question to those of you who have been out there messing with it many times: What's the most common/practical method when designing the OSPF network. Is it to give the area a single decimal value (n), or one that matches and/or looks like an IP address (a.b.c.d), which could be the same as the network? Also, what method does Cisco prefer if any over the other? Thanks for comments on this, Ole Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oledrews.com/ccnp NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=11867t=11861 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sample CCNA test question..bogus?
Just to elaborate on Adam's answer If you are using CIDR (allows 0 and 255 as networks) you have a total of 8 networks (2^3) This leaves you with 8190 hosts per network (2^13 - 2) The network ranges (256 - 224 = 32 ) (you get the 224 by counting the 1's in this case 1110) The hosts range between the network addresses (this accounts for the subnet address and broadcast address) 172.31.0.0 - 172.31.31.255 172.31.32.0 - 172.31.63.255 172.31.64.0 - 172.31.95.255 172.31.96.0 - 172.31.127.255 172.31.128.0 - 172.31.159.255 172.31.160.0 - 172.31.191.255 172.31.192.0 - 172.31.223.255 172.31.224.0 - 172.31.255.255 So the answer is D Hope this helps Dusty Harper [EMAIL PROTECTED] MCSE + I + DBA CCNA, CCDA A+, Network+, i-Net+ -Original Message- From: Adam Hickey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 5:57 PM To: Bruce; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sample CCNA test question..bogus? It would appear to me that by the statement 172.16.0.0/19 they are stating a major net rather than one of the subnets created by the masking. If you look carefully at the answers, D is the only one that can be right because it is the only one that qualifies as a host address. A) 172.16.32.0 = a subnet address, B) 172.16.64.0 = a subnet address, C) 172.16.63.255 = a broadcast address within a subnet, D) 172.16.80.255 = a host address within a subnet. If I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. but that's what I see. Adam Hickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Bruce" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: groupstudy.cisco To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 9:38 PM Subject: Re: Sample CCNA test question..bogus? Tom, Thanks for your response but I beg to differ. I agree that answer D falls inside the range of the 64 subnet as you explain, but this is not the question. The question asks for a valid host using 172.16.0.0/19, not 172.16.64.0/19 By my reckoning, the valid host range is 172.16.0.1 to 172.16.31.254 Regards, BR. "Tom Lisa" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Well, since I'm not a qualified psychiatrist I don't want to comment on your mental health, but there is a correct answer here. If we go to binary it all becomes clear. The /19 means that the first 19 bits are network/subnetwork bits and the remaining 13 bits are host bits. Therefore our mask would look like this: ..1110. Since the first two octects are identical, we can dispense with them and concentrate on the first 3 bits of the third octet and the remaining host bits. Our subnet addresses would be as follows: X.X.. = X.X.0.0 Hosts = X.X.0.1 - X.X.31.254 Bdcst = X.X.31.255* *Assumes Subnet Zero Allowed X.X.0010. = X.X.32.0 Hosts = X.X.32.1 - X.X.63.254 Bdcst = X.X.63.255 X.X.0100. = X.X.64.0 Hosts = X.X.64.1 - X.X.95.254 Bdcst = X.X.95.255 X.X.0110. = X.X.96.0 Etcetera, Etcetera . . Etcetera (You get the picture) From this you can see that: answer A is the "wire" address of the 32 subnet answer B is the "wire" address of the 64 subnet answer C is the Broadcast address of the 32 subnet answer D falls within the valid host range for the 64 subnet and is correct. BTW, a good source for learning IP Addressing subnetting is: www.learntosubnet.com HTH, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Bruce wrote: Q. Which one of the following is a valid host using the address of 172.16.0.0 /19? a. 172.16.32.0 b. 172.16.64.0 c. 172.16.63.255 d. 172.16.80.255 Which one and why? (I say none of them. Am I going mad?) _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCNP books
Cisco Press Routing TCP/IP Jeff Doyle 1-57870-041-8 Internet Routing Architectures Sam Halabi 1-57870-233-X Building Cisco Scalable NetworksDiane Teare 1-57870-228-3 Building Cisco Remote Access Networks Catherine Paquet 1-57870-091-4 Building Cisco MultiLayer Switched Networks Karen Webb 1-57870-093-0 Cisco Internetwork Troubleshooting Laura Chappell1-57870-092-2 Sybex Press Routing Todd Lammle 0-7821-2712-6 Switching Todd Lammle 0-7821-2711-8 Remote Access Todd Lammle 0-7821-2710-X Support Todd Lammle 0-7821-2713-4 -Original Message- From: cecilia wu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 1:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCNP books Hi, i just passed my CCNA and new to this group. would someone please kindly recommand some books for CCNP? thanks Cecilia _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unable to browse the web after connecting to VPN
You may need to reconfigure the IE options through the Internet Connection Wizard. Basically this will help determine / configure the Proxy address and / or what not that your office connects through. -Original Message- From: Sam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Unable to browse the web after connecting to VPN Ramesh, next time you might get a better response from a microsoft newsgroup. Anyways, are you using a server assigned IP address or a static address? If you are using server assigned check to make sure you are getting valid DNS server addresses. You can check the addresses by doing a winipcfg in Win9x or ipconfig /all in NT. Once you get the addresses you can ping them, do trace routes or use nslookup to troubleshoot the problem. Keep in mind that once you connect to your network at the office you become part of that network and your internet access should be going through your company's network. There are plenty of white papers covering MS PPTP at www.microsoft.com/technet Hope this helps. ""Ramesh c"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all, Its a kind of weird problem.I am using a VPN(windowsNT server /PPTP) to connect to my Ofiice network.The VPN connection goes thru fine and I am able to ping my office network as well as Internet.The problem is I am unable to browse the Internet thru browser.Before Connecting to VPN it works fine.This problem is only on Internet explorer 5.0 The above problem is not to be seen in netscape. What is problem and difference between the browsers?Any setting I need to change in Internet explorer? Any help would be appreciated. cheers Ramesh Get your small business started at Lycos Small Business at http://www.lycos.com/business/mail.html _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Publishing Date?
Volume 2 will cover the exterior routing protocolsie BGP -Original Message- From: Newton, James A. (AIT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:25 PM To: 'Adam Hickey'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Publishing Date? Does anyone know who it will differ from volume one? -Original Message- From: Adam Hickey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 10:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Publishing Date? Anyone know when Doyle is going to publish Vol 2? Adam Hickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BGP book
Internet Routing Architectures Second Edition by Sam Hallabi ISBN 157870233X -Original Message- From: Laurel Redd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 12:39 PM To: Kenneth Lorenzo; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BGP book There is one I would not recommend: BGPv4 this is a slim paperback book (has green spine I think) can't remember the author. HORRIBLE book. I am sure it had some good info in it but reading through it made NO sense to me at all. Talked in circles most of the time and was really dry. Morgan - Original Message - From: "Kenneth Lorenzo" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: groupstudy.cisco To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 2:21 PM Subject: BGP book can anyone recommend a book that has extensive coverage of BGP? Thanks! Kenneth _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Deleting a local network route
Title: Deleting a local network route I was curious if someone could rationale why a network engineer would want to delete the local network route out of a route table. For example if your route table looked comparable Dest. Mask Gtwy Int Metric 127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 1 -Loopback 10.11.12.0 255.255.255.0 10.11.12.13 10.11.13.13 1 -local network (One to be deleted) 10.11.12.13 255.255.255.255 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 1 --local host 10.11.12.255 255.255.255.255 10.11.12.13 10.11.12.13 1 --local network broadcast 192.168.20.0 255.255.255.0 192.168.20.111 192.168.20.111 1 -local network 192.168.20.111 255.255.255.255 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 1 --local host 192.168.20.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.20.111 192.168.20.111 1 --local network broadcast 255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 10.11.12.13 10.11.13.13 1 --broadcast Why would someone need to or want to manually delete out a local network route? it is to my understanding that 3 routes need to exist for basic connectivity via TCP/IP (besides the loopback and broadcast): The local host The local network The local network broadcast Any feedback is appreciated Dusty Harper MCSE + I + DBA A+, Network+, i-Net+ CCNA, CCDA
RE: IPX RIP Updates
Title: RE: IPX RIP Updates IPX RIP Packets are advertised every 60 seconds as are IPX SAP Packets...A lot of Implementations stagger the two protocols to lessen the broadcasts simultaneously. (RIP wait 30 sec SAP wait 30 sec RIP wait 30 sec SAP ) This is still broadcasting every 60 seconds though. -Original Message- From: Jeff Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: IPX RIP Updates My CCDA Study Guide has conflicting statements concerning the update frequency of IPX RIP. One place says 30 secs, same as IP RIP; another table says 60 secs. Which is correct? Please help, my CCDA exam is Friday afternoon. Thanks ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Another New CCIE Book
Title: RE: Another New CCIE Book Just discovered this lil book How to cheat the Cisco Lab by Ima Falyer Chapter One: Hiring someone who knows what they are doing to take it for you Chapter Two: The art of tattooing IOS commands to inconsicous places -Original Message- From: Kevin Wigle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 11:25 AM To: Cisco Subject: Another New CCIE Book Th CCIE Exam Cram won't be around for a few weeks I'm told but I found this book on the shelf. PREP KIT CCIE 350-001 Routing and Switching Published by BaerWolf and QUE ISBN: 078972359 It looks like no matter what our thoughts are on things like CCIE for Dummies etc, the media is waking up to us. Fortunately, the Lab will always be our protection. Kevin Wigle CCDP/CCNP. ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: connect routers together with Token ring interface
Title: RE: connect routers together with Token ring interface It is called a MAU )(Multi-Station Access Unit) basically it has a Ring in and a ring out. it functions very much like a hub. Ring In --Ring Out --Ring In --Ring Out -| ^---| -Original Message- From: Daniel Ji [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: connect routers together with Token ring interface Hi, Can anyone tell me how to connect two routers with token ring interface? you connect 2 routers with enthernet interfaces by connecting them to a enthernet hub, is there anything like token ring hub? Thanks in advance. Daniel CCNA ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Question on missing ranges...
Title: RE: Question on missing ranges... 400-499 is used for XNS 500-599 is used for extended XNS They are not in the exam cram because they are not really covered on the exam you are studying for. Which really shows the good and bad qualities behind books generated just for the exam. Dusty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 11:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Question on missing ranges... Hey Group, I was just finalizing my cram session when I came accross something that I hadn't noticed before. It's not very important and don't think it will come up on the test but I'm simply asking out of curiosity. The access list ranges are as follows: 1-99 = IP Standard 100-199 = IP Extended 200-299 = Protocol type-code 300-399 = DECnet 600-699 = Appletalk 700-799 = 48 bit MAC 800-899 = IPX standard 900-999 = IPX extended 1000-1099 = IPX SAP 1100-1199 = Extended 48 bit MAC 1200-1299 = IPX Summary address Now my question is quite simple...What happened to the number range of 400-599??? Are these used for something else that we don't need to know? Why aren't they in the book? And why don't they even address why they're not in the book with an explanation? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for the help. ;) ~Mark Z.~ ___ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
