Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Phil via CnC-List]

My fuel tank on my LF 38 began leaking pretty badly recently.   I pumped out 
all of the diesel.  What are my options for replacement?  Should I replace with 
a stock sized tank or go another route?  Is this something I can do myself? 

-Phil James
1982 C&C LF 38
Annapolis, MD
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Re: Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

Phil:

I just did this replacement last winter in my LF38.  I had my boat yard do it 
but I could have done it myself if I had enough time.  The partial bulkhead 
just in front of the tank has to be completely removed--a Fein saw works great 
for this!  Then you have to remove the water heater and part of the bulkhead 
behind the water heater--this creates the space to remove the old tank and put 
in a new one.  The tank can be purchased from Florida Marine Tanks in Henderson 
NC and they can go by the numbers on the tank's nameplate.  The original tank 
is only 0.090 inches thick--i upgraded to 1/4 inch for the replacement (about 
$500) because I never want to do it again.  Of course, the bulkhead in front of 
the tank has to go back in--we made a new one from a thick fiberglass panel and 
glassed it in place.  (I have pictures on my blog of the replacement process.)

There is a lot more to this than meets the eye since there is a lot of wiring 
that has to be removed and reinstalled as well.

I also ran into broken motor mounts and a loose prop strut that had to be fixed 
at the same time.

If you have a reputable boat yard do this work, you are looking at $10k plus 
the cost of the tank.  Hartge's Yacht Yard in Galesville did my replacement.

You welcome to come and look at my installation sometime.  I live in Annapolis 
but keep my boat is Galesville.

Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame

> On May 3, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Phil via CnC-List  wrote:
> 
> My fuel tank on my LF 38 began leaking pretty badly recently.   I pumped out 
> all of the diesel.  What are my options for replacement?  Should I replace 
> with a stock sized tank or go another route?  Is this something I can do 
> myself? 
> 
> -Phil James
> 1982 C&C LF 38
> Annapolis, MD
> ___
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Re: Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Ken Heaton via CnC-List]

I'm sure Wally will offer a few words when he is next on his email but he
did document this back when he did it to his LF 38 here:
http://www.wbryant.com/StellaBoat/Projects/fuel/index.htm

Ken H.

On 3 May 2015 at 11:17, Phil via CnC-List  wrote:

> My fuel tank on my LF 38 began leaking pretty badly recently.   I pumped
> out all of the diesel.  What are my options for replacement?  Should I
> replace with a stock sized tank or go another route?  Is this something I
> can do myself?
>
> -Phil James
> 1982 C&C LF 38
> Annapolis, MD
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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> bottom of page at:
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>
>
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Re: Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

You might want to explore a bladder tank. 

I know we boaters have a serious mindset towards hard tanks but diesel bladder 
tanks are quite reliable and can be custom made. 

Can you cut the top off your existing tank, patch the holes with JB Weld or 
similar then drop in a custom bladder tank?  The existing tank would then 
become a containment for the bladder.

Dennis C.
Touché 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Phil via CnC-List  wrote:
> 
> My fuel tank on my LF 38 began leaking pretty badly recently.   I pumped out 
> all of the diesel.  What are my options for replacement?  Should I replace 
> with a stock sized tank or go another route?  Is this something I can do 
> myself? 
> 
> -Phil James
> 1982 C&C LF 38
> Annapolis, MD
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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> of page at:
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> 

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Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Knowles Rich via CnC-List]

Hi All. I’ve been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.

Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh’s questions as I can’t…

Rich Knowles
Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley  wrote:

Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward?  The original 
poster was asking about placement of wood blocks.  He had all 4 blocks forward 
of the mast and the mask back all the way aft.  I assumed that in moving the 
blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well.  
No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in 
all of this.  Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the 
luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would 
have more rake.  Right?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles" mailto:r...@sailpower.ca>> wrote:
I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if 
the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else 
can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our 
conversation to the masses when I get home. 

RK

On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft.  
> Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all 
> the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were 
> referring to the foot.  I had originally stated that moving the foot forward 
> would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce 
> weather helm.  I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals 
> more weather helm.
> 
> So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing 
> rake?  The two actions have opposite effects correct?
> 
> Josh
> 
> On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, "Rich Knowles"  > wrote:
> Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather 
> helm. Simple geometry.
> 
> Rich Knowles
> Nanaimo, BC
> INDIGO LF38
> Almost sold in Halifax, NS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
> Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm.
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
> On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, "N7FN--- via CnC-List"  > wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is 
> positioned.
> 
> Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast 
> was positioned in the step farther forward at one time.
> 
> The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the 
> workers in the yard put it.
> 
> Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the 
> way forward as opposed to all the way aft?  I have seen adjustments for 
> moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats.
> 
> Frank Noragon
> C&C 38LF, s/n 001
> Rose City Yacht Club
> Portland, Oregon 
> 
> ___
> 
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> 
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> 

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Re: Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

The quadrant is only an inch above the tank on a LF 38 and there is no way I'd 
ever consider a bladder tank in such a precarious position on my boat.  A 
little bit of rubbing from the cable and you would have diesel fuel all over 
the place.

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame

> On May 3, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> You might want to explore a bladder tank. 
> 
> I know we boaters have a serious mindset towards hard tanks but diesel 
> bladder tanks are quite reliable and can be custom made. 
> 
> Can you cut the top off your existing tank, patch the holes with JB Weld or 
> similar then drop in a custom bladder tank?  The existing tank would then 
> become a containment for the bladder.
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touché 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 3, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Phil via CnC-List  wrote:
>> 
>> My fuel tank on my LF 38 began leaking pretty badly recently.   I pumped out 
>> all of the diesel.  What are my options for replacement?  Should I replace 
>> with a stock sized tank or go another route?  Is this something I can do 
>> myself? 
>> 
>> -Phil James
>> 1982 C&C LF 38
>> Annapolis, MD
>> ___
>> 
>> Email address:
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
>> of page at:
>> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> 
> ___
> 
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> of page at:
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Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Jake Brodersen via CnC-List]

Rich,

 

Less rake = less weather helm.  If you go far enough, you end up with lee
helm, which can be dangerous.  I doubt you have enough adjustment to get
that far though.

 

Jake

 

Jake Brodersen

"Midnight Mistress"

C&C 35 Mk-III

Hampton VA

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles
Rich via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List
Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

 

Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.

 

Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't.

 

Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





 

On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley  wrote:

 

Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward?  The original
poster was asking about placement of wood blocks.  He had all 4 blocks
forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft.  I assumed that in
moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot
forward as well.  No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to
be the fixed point in all of this.  Based on these assumptions the trailing
edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but
the mast as a whole would have more rake.  Right?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles"  wrote:

I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast,
if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone
else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will
post our conversation to the masses when I get home. 

RK


On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley  wrote:

What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft.
Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all
the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were
referring to the foot.  I had originally stated that moving the foot forward
would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce
weather helm.  I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals
more weather helm.

So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but
increasing rake?  The two actions have opposite effects correct?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, "Rich Knowles"  wrote:

Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases
weather helm. Simple geometry.

 

Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





 

On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
wrote:

 

Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, "N7FN--- via CnC-List" 
wrote:


Hi,

I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is
positioned.

Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast
was positioned in the step farther forward at one time.

The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the
workers in the yard put it.

Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the
way forward as opposed to all the way aft?  I have seen adjustments for
moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats.

Frank Noragon
C&C 38LF, s/n 001
Rose City Yacht Club
Portland, Oregon 

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Re: Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

I was about to respond that the original tank on my 38 was of a size that it
could be slid over to stbd (once the straps attaching it to a wood platform
were removed) and rotated so it came out through the lid on the cockpit
locker. Then I looks at Wally's photos. All I can say is #%$@& ! And good
luck.


Rick Brass
Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2
la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1
Washington, NC



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Phil via
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 10:18 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

My fuel tank on my LF 38 began leaking pretty badly recently.   I pumped out
all of the diesel.  What are my options for replacement?  Should I replace
with a stock sized tank or go another route?  Is this something I can do
myself? 

-Phil James
1982 C&C LF 38
Annapolis, MD
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Stus-List Internal Outhaul

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Yes, a bit of an oxymoron.  

So I was happily replacing 15 year old running rigging on my 121 today when I 
discovered the boat came with a 4:1 purchase tucked inside the boom for the 
outhaul.  Who’d a thunk. Two questions for this knowledgeable group.

Why in the world would I not rip this out a simply run a line from boom end to 
cabin top winch?  As is, the outhaul runs from boom end, through the purchase 
system, through a sheave, through a turning block at the mast base, through a 
deck organizer and finally to a winch on the cabin top.  They weren’t even 
particularly good blocks inside the mast.  I would think any mechanical 
advantage would be lost to friction  Perhaps it serves a purpose in that the 
line won’t jump when taken off the winch.  

There has to be a block tucked well into the boom attached at some point with, 
I would guess,  a wire lead.  How do you get to it?

All help appreciated

John


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Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

The wooden wedges in the partners lock the mast into position inside the
partners (ditto for Spartite if you have urethane in the partners). Moving
the base of the mast forward will tilt the mast and increase rake, moving it
aft will decrease rake. But the fore and aft position of the mast at deck
level does not change.

 

When Imzadi was rerigged, we set the mast vertical in the middle of the
partners and inserted the wedges. Then adjusted shrouds to hold the mast
straight and vertical, took most of the slack out of the forestay and
backstay, and then removed the sling used to stand the mast in position.
Then the base of the mast was moved forward until the desired angle of rake
was achieved (10" measured at the gooseneck, IRRC, but I could be wrong) and
the stays were then tightened up. Finally the shrouds were adjusted to the
desired base tension.

 

Final adjustment of the shrouds was done with the boat beating to weather in
about 10 knots of wind.

 

I have about 2" of oak blocks in the mast step aft of the mast, and about 3"
or 4" forward.

 

With the base of the mast locked and the partners acting as a fulcrum,
adding tension to the backstay bends the masthead back and adds tension to
the forestay. The middle of the mast is held in place by the baby stay, so
added tension to the backstay causes the bend in the mast to be nearer the
top of the mast which tends to flatten the mainsail.

 

What you say would be true, Josh: moving the mast forward would move the
luff of the main forward (and BTW reduce J), but only if the mast remained
straight and the movement would be limited by the partners to only an inch
or two. Once the mast is wedged in the partners, moving the base forward
increases rake and moves the luff aft.

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles
Rich via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List
Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

 

Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.

 

Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't.

 

Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





 

On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward?  The original
poster was asking about placement of wood blocks.  He had all 4 blocks
forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft.  I assumed that in
moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot
forward as well.  No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to
be the fixed point in all of this.  Based on these assumptions the trailing
edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but
the mast as a whole would have more rake.  Right?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles" mailto:r...@sailpower.ca> > wrote:

I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast,
if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone
else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will
post our conversation to the masses when I get home. 

RK


On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.com> > wrote:

What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft.
Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all
the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were
referring to the foot.  I had originally stated that moving the foot forward
would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce
weather helm.  I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals
more weather helm.

So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but
increasing rake?  The two actions have opposite effects correct?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, "Rich Knowles" mailto:r...@sailpower.ca> > wrote:

Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases
weather helm. Simple geometry.

 

Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





 

On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, "N7FN--- via CnC-List" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:


Hi,

I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is
positioned.

Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast
was positioned in the step farther forward at one time.

The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the
workers in the yard put it.

Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the
way forward as opposed to all t

Stus-List Single Line Reefing

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

My 121 originally came equipped with single line reefing.  I never used it 
opting for jiffy reefing.  My preference has always been two line reefing 
systems.  Over the winter I decided, what the heck - give single line a try.  
So now I will add two blocks to the main to eliminate some of the friction and 
give this a fair shot (luff and leech).  Any thoughts on what kind of load 
those blocks will be under?  Assume the sail reefs down to 300 sqft when the 
blocks are actually under load.  Allowing for 40 knots I came with about a 
2,500 SWL block as a good bet.  This allows for the 180 degree turn on each 
block.  

Thoughts welcome

John


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Re: Stus-List Internal Outhaul

[Charles Nelson via CnC-List]

My 36 XL/kcb has an identical system and is led to cam cleats above companion 
way-winch not required which makes for quick adjustments. PITA to get to-- 
attach messenger line to aft end of boom out haul line and pull mast end of 
system thru. You will probably find the purchase system terminates with shackle 
attached inside boom near mast. Remove this shackle and you get the whole 
system out. Biggest issue for me was determining proper length of final short 
line to mainsail clew. Too long and the 4:1 system 'two blocks' itself with the 
system blocks coming together before they tension out haul. Too short and the 
final out haul line to the clew can't be tied off. Not run correctly or twisted 
during installation and you end up with a FUBAR. Recommend trial and error 
starting with longer line to get proper length.
No need to run the out haul line to a winch when you already have 4:1, assuming 
that the pit has reasonable leverage on it.

Originally (as delivered) this 4:1 system was part of a 6:1 main sheet purchase 
which allowed either 6:1 or 24:1 adjustments. When I re-rigged my main sheet 
with a Harken 6:1/24:1 purchase, I used the 4:1 in the boom as described above 
for my out haul, eliminating the need in heavy air for leading it to a winch. 

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom 
C&C XL/kcb 1995



 


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2015, at 5:29 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, a bit of an oxymoron.  
> 
> So I was happily replacing 15 year old running rigging on my 121 today when I 
> discovered the boat came with a 4:1 purchase tucked inside the boom for the 
> outhaul.  Who’d a thunk. Two questions for this knowledgeable group.
> 
> Why in the world would I not rip this out a simply run a line from boom end 
> to cabin top winch?  As is, the outhaul runs from boom end, through the 
> purchase system, through a sheave, through a turning block at the mast base, 
> through a deck organizer and finally to a winch on the cabin top.  They 
> weren’t even particularly good blocks inside the mast.  I would think any 
> mechanical advantage would be lost to friction  Perhaps it serves a purpose 
> in that the line won’t jump when taken off the winch.  
> 
> There has to be a block tucked well into the boom attached at some point 
> with, I would guess,  a wire lead.  How do you get to it?
> 
> All help appreciated
> 
> John
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
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> 

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Stus-List RudderPostCollar

[Eric Frank via CnC-List]

In checking out Cat’s Paw today in preparation for launching, I noticed cracks 
in the collar around the rudder post where it comes through the cockpit floor 
(C&C 35 Mk II, 1974).  The collar looks like an aluminum casting, probably the 
original one.  First, is this sufficiently serious I should not even launch 
until it is fixed? The rudder is held up by the fitting above that with the two 
large allen screws, so I doubt the rudder will fall out.  And the rudder still 
turns easily. Second, where should I look for a replacement collar? Presumably 
the rudder will need to be dropped, or at least held up so it won’t fall out 
when the upper fitting is removed.  So will the boat need to be hauled to do 
that?  We are sailing in the Figawi race in less than 3 weeks, so I doubt it 
can be fixed before that.  Advice please.

Here is a picture of the cracked collar: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4gfowalb1qyd8j/RudderPostCollar.JPG?dl=0

Eric
Cat's Paw
C&C 35 Mk II
Mattapoisett, MA

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Re: Stus-List RudderPostCollar

[svpegasus38]

For Pegasus I had one machined out of a hard plastic, similar to micarda. 
Doug MountjoysvPegasusLF38 just west of Ballard, WA.


-- Original message--From: Eric Frank via CnC-List Date: Sun, May 3, 
2015 16:56To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com;Subject:Stus-List RudderPostCollarIn 
checking out Cat’s Paw today in preparation for launching, I noticed cracks in 
the collar around the rudder post where it comes through the cockpit floor (C&C 
35 Mk II, 1974).  The collar looks like an aluminum casting, probably the 
original one.  First, is this sufficiently serious I should not even launch 
until it is fixed? The rudder is held up by the fitting above that with the two 
large allen screws, so I doubt the rudder will fall out.  And the rudder still 
turns easily. Second, where should I look for a replacement collar? Presumably 
the rudder will need to be dropped, or at least held up so it won’t fall out 
when the upper fitting is removed.  So will the boat need to be hauled to do 
that?  We are sailing in the Figawi race in less than 3 weeks, so I doubt it 
can be fixed before that.  Advice please.
Here is a picture of the cracked collar: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4gfowalb1qyd8j/RudderPostCollar.JPG?dl=0
EricCat's Paw
C&C 35 Mk II
Mattapoisett, MA
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Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) that more rake usually
equals more weather helm.  However, while discussing rake we are only
taking into consideration the movement of the mast head.  The act of moving
the head back actually does two things.  One, it tilts or rotates the sail
on approximately on it's tack.  Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the
mast is moving aft.

Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible?

The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, "What would happen if he
moved the blocks at the mast step so as the move the foot forward?"

I answered that it would increase the rake and then incorrectly stated that
increased rake would decrease weather helm.  Fellow listers quickly
corrected my error...repeatedly.  After being corrected for the third or
forth time I decided to reeducate myself.  During this review it occured to
me that all I was previously considering was the rake.  Rich's comments
made me consider the placement of the sail in relation to the boat.  As
such I possed the question to Rich that moving the foot forward does
increase rake but actually moves the bulk of the sail forward.  What is the
net effect?

There it is, fire at will.

Josh

Rich,



Less rake = less weather helm.  If you go far enough, you end up with lee
helm, which can be dangerous.  I doubt you have enough adjustment to get
that far though.



Jake



*Jake Brodersen*

*"Midnight Mistress"*

*C&C 35 Mk-III*

*Hampton VA*







*From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Knowles
Rich via CnC-List
*Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM
*To:* Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step



Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.



Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't...



Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley  wrote:



Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward?  The
original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks.  He had all 4
blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft.  I assumed
that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the
foot forward as well.  No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed
it to be the fixed point in all of this.  Based on these assumptions the
trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move
forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake.  Right?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles"  wrote:

I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast,
if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps
someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work
but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home.

RK


On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley  wrote:

What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft.
Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all
the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were
referring to the foot.  I had originally stated that moving the foot
forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would
reduce weather helm.  I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more
rake equals more weather helm.

So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but
increasing rake?  The two actions have opposite effects correct?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, "Rich Knowles"  wrote:

Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases
weather helm. Simple geometry.



Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
wrote:



Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, "N7FN--- via CnC-List" 
wrote:


Hi,

I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is
positioned.

Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the
mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time.

The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the
workers in the yard put it.

Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the
way forward as opposed to all the way aft?  I have seen adjustments for
moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats.

Frank Noragon
C&C 38LF, s/n 001
Rose City Yacht Club
Portland, Oregon

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Stus-List Fuel tank replacement

[Daniel Sheer via CnC-List]

Pegathy's PO or predecessor did a fuel tank replacement. They sawed a piece out 
of the starboard lazarette side to get it in and then did a good, but visible, 
patch job. It clearly was not easy. If I had to do it, I would indeed try to 
use a bladder inside the remains of the old tank. The old tank top would, I 
think, protect the bladder from possible abrasion by the steering cables. If 
it's the top of the old tank that's corroded, I'd have to think again. I might 
try to lay a sheet of aluminum over what's left and still use a bladder. 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Dan SheerPegathy LF 38Rock Creek off the Patapsco
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Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Daniel Sheer via CnC-List]

Just looked - Pegathy's mast is in the middle of the step, spacers on both 
sides. She's got a bit of lee helm in very light air. Goes away quickly as the 
wind comes up. 

Seems to me that more rake increases weather helm when the forestay is slacked, 
backstay tightened, and the mast step doesn't move - the normal way to add 
rake. Seems to me that if you keep the masthead in the same place and move the 
step forward, the sail area and center of effort would have to move forward. 
Euclidean geometry. That should decrease weather helm. 'Course if you move the 
step forward and the head aft, anything can happen. I usually fall down when 
that happens.
Dan SheerPegathy LF38Rock Creek off the Patapsco
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Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

Hi Josh,

This reply is really for Mr. Noragon.

You and everybody else agree on the concept that 
Sail CE vs. Yacht CLR is going to influence 
weather helm. Any objection to moving the 
discussion on ways to arrive and influence that 
relationship to a new thread? (it might become huge :)


In the interest of stepping a mast on a Landfill 
38* I recommend the following simple steps: mast 
placement, shroud static tune, shroud dynamic tune.


Mast placement:
Since we don't have history, I would start with 
the mast centred in step and adjust forestay 
length* to arrive at desired rake. If you come 
against the aft partners (deck elevation) then 
bang the mast base forward (similar if aft adjustment is necessary).


Static Shroud Tune:*
Centre mast athwartship using this technique, 
second paragraph At The 
Dock  http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/masttuning/tuning.htm
Next, I tighten the lower shrouds alternately and 
bang on 'em occasionally until the low "thud" 
becomes a low "bing". I keep the tighten sequence 
until they all have the same nice "bing". (low G 
for my wire, if I remember correctly)

Similiar for the upper shrouds. (but a higher note when finished)

Block the mast at the partners and have a beer. 
You have just tuned a rig, by ear.


Dynamic Shroud Tune.
The sailing adjustments finish rig tuning and are 
as important as above. I usually do a couple of 
dynamic tunes simply because of weather 
opportunities aren't always there the first sail 
out. For this I do a small leeward adjustment, 
tack, adjust leeward, tack, etc. instead of 
luffing as recommended by the above link.


* - if you are racing and need repeatable 
pre-race rig settings then a Loos gauge is a handy kit for Static Shroud Tune.

  - not once was forestay tension mentioned :)
  - the other thing I couldn't resist was the 
landfill comment. this is an unkind and 
unwarranted remark oft made in the racing 
community, jealous, I think, they don't appreciate comfort.

I would love to upgrade to a Landfall 38 and cruise the Caribbean for bit.

Oops, gotta go. Looks like a call from Rich, 
inviting me over for a beer (in case the sale falls through). Hah ha.


Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1
Nanaimo

At 05:59 PM 03/05/2015, you wrote:

Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) 
that more rake usually equals more weather 
helm.  However, while discussing rake we are 
only taking into consideration the movement of 
the mast head.  The act of moving the head back 
actually does two things.  One, it tilts or 
rotates the sail on approximately on it's 
tack.  Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the mast is moving aft.


Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible?

The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, 
"What would happen if he moved the blocks at the 
mast step so as the move the foot forward?"


I answered that it would increase the rake and 
then incorrectly stated that increased rake 
would decrease weather helm.  Fellow listers 
quickly corrected my error...repeatedly.  After 
being corrected for the third or forth time I 
decided to reeducate myself.  During this review 
it occured to me that all I was previously 
considering was the rake.  Rich's comments made 
me consider the placement of the sail in 
relation to the boat.  As such I possed the 
question to Rich that moving the foot forward 
does increase rake but actually moves the bulk 
of the sail forward.  What is the net effect?


There it is, fire at will.

Josh

Rich,



Less rake = less weather helm.  If you go far 
enough, you end up with lee helm, which can be 
dangerous.  I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that far though.




Jake



Jake Brodersen

“Midnight Mistress”

C&C 35 Mk-III

Hampton VA







From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List

Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List
Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step



Hi All. I’ve been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.



Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh’s questions as I can’t…



Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley 
<muckl...@gmail.com> wrote:




Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the 
foot forward?  The original poster was asking 
about placement of wood blocks.  He had all 4 
blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all 
the way aft.  I assumed that in moving the 
blocks to move the mast forward that this would 
move the foot forward as well.  No mention of 
changing headstay length so I assumed it to be 
the fixed point in all of this.  Based on these 
assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and 
the luff edge of the sail would also move 
forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake.  Right?


Josh

On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles" 
<r..

Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[randy via CnC-List]

Josh, we've come to really appreciate your comments, especially of late, it
seems you've taken it upon yourself to step up when many times questions
aren't being answered.  One of those mysteries of the internet, sometimes
replies don't always come thru in a timely manner.  I have been fighting
weather helm in the winds of the gorge since getting my 29, so have tried to
adjust accordingly.  Don't take it as anyone beating up on ya!  This is a
great group of knowledgeable folks.

 

With that said, and I'm no expert, but one must look at the total package,
both jib and main, and the sum total of effort moves aft.  Look at any good
sail plan drawing.

 

And now off to do my part on national scurvy day another rum, please, yes w/
lime!  I know, that was yesterday, but one must help when one can!

 

Cheers!

 

randy

Tamanawas

29-II

Hood River, OR

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh
Muckley via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 6:00 PM
To: C&C List; captain_jake@cox net
Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

 

Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) that more rake usually
equals more weather helm.  However, while discussing rake we are only taking
into consideration the movement of the mast head.  The act of moving the
head back actually does two things.  One, it tilts or rotates the sail on
approximately on it's tack.  Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the
mast is moving aft.

Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible?

The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, "What would happen if he
moved the blocks at the mast step so as the move the foot forward?"

I answered that it would increase the rake and then incorrectly stated that
increased rake would decrease weather helm.  Fellow listers quickly
corrected my error...repeatedly.  After being corrected for the third or
forth time I decided to reeducate myself.  During this review it occured to
me that all I was previously considering was the rake.  Rich's comments made
me consider the placement of the sail in relation to the boat.  As such I
possed the question to Rich that moving the foot forward does increase rake
but actually moves the bulk of the sail forward.  What is the net effect?

There it is, fire at will.

Josh

Rich,

 

Less rake = less weather helm.  If you go far enough, you end up with lee
helm, which can be dangerous.  I doubt you have enough adjustment to get
that far though.

 

Jake

 

Jake Brodersen

"Midnight Mistress"

C&C 35 Mk-III

Hampton VA

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com
 ] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List
Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

 

Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.

 

Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't.

 

Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.




 

On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward?  The original
poster was asking about placement of wood blocks.  He had all 4 blocks
forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft.  I assumed that in
moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot
forward as well.  No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to
be the fixed point in all of this.  Based on these assumptions the trailing
edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but
the mast as a whole would have more rake.  Right?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles" mailto:r...@sailpower.ca> > wrote:

I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast,
if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone
else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will
post our conversation to the masses when I get home. 

RK


On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.com> > wrote:

What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft.
Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all
the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were
referring to the foot.  I had originally stated that moving the foot forward
would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce
weather helm.  I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals
more weather helm.

So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but
increasing rake?  The two actions have opposite effects correct?

Josh

On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, "Rich Knowles" mailto:r...@sailpower.ca> > wrote:

Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases
weather helm. Simple geometry.

 

Rich Knowles

Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38

Re: Stus-List RudderPostCollar

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

Hi Eric,

The rudder won't fall out of the quadrant is attached. That said, I 
would block between the quadrant and top of rudder log (boat part) or 
use one of these

https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/34312?r=~|categoryl1:%22603582%20Power%20Transmission%209and%20Motors%22|~%20~|categoryl2:%22608501%20Collars,%20Couplings%209and%20Components%22|~%20~|categoryl3:%22603515%20Shaft%20Collars%22|~%20~|sattr01:^%222-Piece%20Clamping%20Collar%22$|~
  two piece collars clamped to the stock under the quadrant to keep 
things in place.
Then you can take apart the upper works and fix things, in the water, 
whenever you have a mind to.


The 35-1 uses one of these collars at the top of the shaft log 
instead of the fancy arrangement that you have.


Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1

At 04:56 PM 03/05/2015, you wrote:
In checking out Cat's Paw today in preparation for launching, I 
noticed cracks in the collar around the rudder post where it comes 
through the cockpit floor (C&C 35 Mk II, 1974).  The collar looks 
like an aluminum casting, probably the original one.  First, is this 
sufficiently serious I should not even launch until it is fixed? The 
rudder is held up by the fitting above that with the two large allen 
screws, so I doubt the rudder will fall out.  And the rudder still 
turns easily. Second, where should I look for a replacement collar? 
Presumably the rudder will need to be dropped, or at least held up 
so it won't fall out when the upper fitting is removed.  So will the 
boat need to be hauled to do that?  We are sailing in the Figawi 
race in less than 3 weeks, so I doubt it can be fixed before 
that.  Advice please.


Here is a picture of the cracked collar:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4gfowalb1qyd8j/RudderPostCollar.JPG?dl=0

Eric
Cat's Paw
C&C 35 Mk II
Mattapoisett, MA

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Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step

[Knowles Rich via CnC-List]

Russ, you can stop by the Harbour Chandler any time Tuesday to Saturday and 
offer me a sail, and I’ll bring beer. If the sale doesn’t go through, I won’t 
be able to afford to bring beer.

Re the LF38: I’ve repaired and sailed on a lot of boats and, all things taken 
into consideration, she is one of the best all-round sailing machines I’ve been 
on with essentially no bad habits. Weather helm was never a problem and 
rounding up was virtually unknown. The ride was always comfortable, especially 
without the flat area ahead of the keel found on so many boats that can cause 
pounding. Engine and steering mechanism access is a bit restricted, but not 
impossible. A great affordable vessel that looks good and delivers decent 
performance and comfort. I had mine for 18 years and never had a moment of 
fear, regret, or desire for another boat. A tribute to C&C.

Re weather helm and other mysteries of life: Keep tweaking until it works. If 
it doesn’t, try twerking.

Rich Knowles
Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.





On May 3, 2015, at 20:24, Russ & Melody via CnC-List  
wrote:

Hi Josh,

This reply is really for Mr. Noragon. 

You and everybody else agree on the concept that Sail CE vs. Yacht CLR is going 
to influence weather helm. Any objection to moving the discussion on ways to 
arrive and influence that relationship to a new thread? (it might become huge :)

In the interest of stepping a mast on a Landfill 38* I recommend the following 
simple steps: mast placement, shroud static tune, shroud dynamic tune.

Mast placement:
Since we don't have history, I would start with the mast centred in step and 
adjust forestay length* to arrive at desired rake. If you come against the aft 
partners (deck elevation) then bang the mast base forward (similar if aft 
adjustment is necessary). 

Static Shroud Tune:*
Centre mast athwartship using this technique, second paragraph At The Dock  
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/masttuning/tuning.htm 

Next, I tighten the lower shrouds alternately and bang on 'em occasionally 
until the low "thud" becomes a low "bing". I keep the tighten sequence until 
they all have the same nice "bing". (low G for my wire, if I remember correctly)
Similiar for the upper shrouds. (but a higher note when finished)

Block the mast at the partners and have a beer. You have just tuned a rig, by 
ear.

Dynamic Shroud Tune. 
The sailing adjustments finish rig tuning and are as important as above. I 
usually do a couple of dynamic tunes simply because of weather opportunities 
aren't always there the first sail out. For this I do a small leeward 
adjustment, tack, adjust leeward, tack, etc. instead of luffing as recommended 
by the above link.

* - if you are racing and need repeatable pre-race rig settings then a Loos 
gauge is a handy kit for Static Shroud Tune.
  - not once was forestay tension mentioned :)
  - the other thing I couldn't resist was the landfill comment. this is an 
unkind and unwarranted remark oft made in the racing community, jealous, I 
think, they don't appreciate comfort. 
I would love to upgrade to a Landfall 38 and cruise the Caribbean for bit.

Oops, gotta go. Looks like a call from Rich, inviting me over for a beer (in 
case the sale falls through). Hah ha.

Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1
Nanaimo

At 05:59 PM 03/05/2015, you wrote:

> Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) that more rake usually 
> equals more weather helm.  However, while discussing rake we are only taking 
> into consideration the movement of the mast head.  The act of moving the head 
> back actually does two things.  One, it tilts or rotates the sail on 
> approximately on it's tack.  Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the mast 
> is moving aft.
> 
> Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible?
> 
> The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, "What would happen if he 
> moved the blocks at the mast step so as the move the foot forward?"
> 
> I answered that it would increase the rake and then incorrectly stated that 
> increased rake would decrease weather helm.  Fellow listers quickly corrected 
> my error...repeatedly.  After being corrected for the third or forth time I 
> decided to reeducate myself.  During this review it occured to me that all I 
> was previously considering was the rake.  Rich's comments made me consider 
> the placement of the sail in relation to the boat.  As such I possed the 
> question to Rich that moving the foot forward does increase rake but actually 
> moves the bulk of the sail forward.  What is the net effect?
> 
> There it is, fire at will.
> 
> Josh
> 
> Rich,
> 
>  
> 
> Less rake = less weather helm.  If you go far enough, you end up with lee 
> helm, which can be dangerous.  I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that 
> far though.
> 
>  
> 
> Jake
> 
>  
> 
> Jake Brodersen
> 
> “Midnight Mistress”
>