Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
They could disagree, but I was on the boat and the chain was taught. Joe Della Barba j...@dellabarba.com mailto:j...@dellabarba.com Coquina CC 35 MK I CRYC From: Eric Baumes [mailto:eric.bau...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 11:22 PM To: Joe Della Barba; cnc-list Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring A lot of harbour masters on the East Coast would disagree with you. I am in 12-15' of water with 30' of 1 bottom chain and 15' of 5/8 top chain and 18' of pendants. It takes a lot to lift the bottom chain. Mooring rigs are designed to operate with much shorter scope than an anchor. With a rode of 150' the shock loading is distributed over much more line. If all your elasticity is in 20' of stretchy line, it may over heat and fail. We saw this during the hurricane, and thus advised against nylon pendants in favor of low stretch pendants and increased the weight of the chain, thus increasing the catenary. Eric On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 10:58 PM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I wouldn’t be so sure about the catenary providing much shock absorption. In about 30 knots of wind my mooring chain is pretty much stretched out taught. I have 30 feet of chain in 12 feet of water. Speaking of stretch, in Hurricane Charlie we had 150 feet of ½” nylon in 10 feet of water. It was like being on a giant rubber band :) In the morning the anchor was dug in so deep we needed a CG patrol boat to help get it loose :( From the looks of the line the anchor was at least *6 feet* under! Joe Della Barba j...@dellabarba.com mailto:j...@dellabarba.com Coquina WWW.CRYC.ORG http://WWW.CRYC.ORG From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 9:59 PM To: 'Paul Baker'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Like some of the others, I suspected your plan to use at least ¾” pendants to be overkill for a 27 foot boat. Someone else pointed out that you want some stretch to cushion the shock and ¾” line will have no stretch to speak of at the loads your boat will generate. But the desirability of stretch is more appropriate for an anchor rode and not a mooring pendant. At a mooring, the cushioning is a result of the extra chain and catenary between the mooring ball and anchor; your pendant would probably only have a few inches of stretch over its relatively short length. To see if ¾” line is really overkill, I spent a few minutes doing research on the Boat US site, Fortress and Mantus anchors sites, and a site having engineering standards for different types of rope. There is an ABYC table on the Boat/US site showing the following for the estimated load on an anchor and rode based on boat size and wind speed. The data is: Wind Speed 30kt 42kt 60kt Working storm violent storm Boat size 25’490lb980lb 1440lb 30’700lb1400lb 2800lb 35’900lb1800lb 3600lb These numbers are pretty consistent with what I found on the sites for the anchor companies for anchor load numbers. The rope specs show the following for minimum break strength for medium lay 3-strand nylon: 7/16” ½” 9/16” 5/8” ¾” 4320lb 5670lb 7200lb 8910lb 12780lb Recommendations vary on the working load to max break strength ratio. As low as 3:1, 4:1 seems common, but Mantus says 8:1. At 4:1 the working loads are: 7/16”= 1080 ½”=1420 9/16”=18005/8”=2230 ¾”=3195 At 8:1 540 710 900 1115 1600 For boats anchoring in 30 knots of wind, Mantus and others recommend: 20-30’ 11000pounds9/16 30-35’ 15000 ½ 35-40’ 2 5/8 West marine suggests 1/8” of diameter for each 8’ of length for heavy boats with high windage. So for a 32’ boat that would be that would be ½” diameter. Add another 1/8” for storm conditions. Boat/US recommends the following in 30kts.: 25’ boat=3/8”, 30’=7/16”, 35’=1/2”. But, hey, they’re mostly talking to power boaters. On one of the sites there was a note that deck cleats are generally installed in such a way as to resist a minimum 3400 pound load. I don’t know if that is some sort of standard or just an observation. You plan to run a single pendant, with a somewhat longer backup in case the first breaks. For a 30’ boat, at 4:1 safety factor, at 42kt winds
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
It is best that a mooring be set up to give 3:1 to 5:1 of scope, just like an all chain anchor rode. Recommended practice is that the bottom ½ to 2/3 of the chain be heavier than the top section. The mooring rules (Nayak Yacht Club?) recently posted in this discussion called for something like 30 feet of 5/8 chain topped by 20 feet of 3/8. I presumed that was for moorings in 10 to 15 feet of water. Trust me, youll get catenary if the mooring is set up right. When my 25 lived on a mooring in Delaware Bay, I had a 300 pound mushroom anchor, 40 feet of ½, and 20 feet of ¼ HT chain in about 15 feet of water with 3-4 feet of tide. During the course of the summer, the mushroom would work bury itself into the bottom, and it had a 5 foot shank on it. I helped a friend anchor his Benneteau 35 for Hurricane Isabelle, using a 66 lb. Bruce. We set it out about 4 days before the storm to let the anchor dig in. When we came back after the storm (the eye passed over us with about 60knots of wind) the boat had not moved. Used the windlass to raise the anchor, and the breaker tripped with the chain vertical and the bow going down. Tried raising the anchor by leading the trip line to a cockpit winch. Nothing. Finally ended up by cranking the windlass until the breaker tripped to pull the bow down on the chain. Went back to cockpit, had a beer, walked around a bit until the boats buoyancy lifted the anchor a foot or two. Repeat. Took over 4 hours to get that damn anchor to break free. We figured it was at least 10 feet into the mud. Thats one of the reasons that I have a 44 pound Bruce as the main anchor on my 38. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joe Della Barba via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 10:59 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring I wouldnt be so sure about the catenary providing much shock absorption. In about 30 knots of wind my mooring chain is pretty much stretched out taught. I have 30 feet of chain in 12 feet of water. Speaking of stretch, in Hurricane Charlie we had 150 feet of ½ nylon in 10 feet of water. It was like being on a giant rubber band :) In the morning the anchor was dug in so deep we needed a CG patrol boat to help get it loose :( From the looks of the line the anchor was at least *6 feet* under! Joe Della Barba j...@dellabarba.com mailto:j...@dellabarba.com Coquina WWW.CRYC.ORG http://WWW.CRYC.ORG From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 9:59 PM To: 'Paul Baker'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Like some of the others, I suspected your plan to use at least ¾ pendants to be overkill for a 27 foot boat. Someone else pointed out that you want some stretch to cushion the shock and ¾ line will have no stretch to speak of at the loads your boat will generate. But the desirability of stretch is more appropriate for an anchor rode and not a mooring pendant. At a mooring, the cushioning is a result of the extra chain and catenary between the mooring ball and anchor; your pendant would probably only have a few inches of stretch over its relatively short length. To see if ¾ line is really overkill, I spent a few minutes doing research on the Boat US site, Fortress and Mantus anchors sites, and a site having engineering standards for different types of rope. There is an ABYC table on the Boat/US site showing the following for the estimated load on an anchor and rode based on boat size and wind speed. The data is: Wind Speed 30kt 42kt 60kt Working storm violent storm Boat size 25490lb980lb 1440lb 30700lb1400lb 2800lb 35900lb1800lb 3600lb These numbers are pretty consistent with what I found on the sites for the anchor companies for anchor load numbers. The rope specs show the following for minimum break strength for medium lay 3-strand nylon: 7/16 ½ 9/16 5/8 ¾ 4320lb 5670lb 7200lb 8910lb 12780lb Recommendations vary on the working load to max break strength ratio. As low as 3:1, 4:1 seems common, but Mantus says 8:1. At 4:1 the working loads are: 7/16= 1080 ½=1420 9/16=18005/8=2230 ¾=3195 At 8:1 540 710 900 1115 1600 For boats anchoring in 30 knots of wind, Mantus and others recommend: 20-30 11000pounds9/16 30-35 15000 ½ 35-40 2 5/8 West marine suggests 1/8 of diameter for each 8 of length for heavy boats
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
You can almost see my house from one of the gallery pics! Certainly can see my neighbour. Peter Fell Sidney, BC Cygnet CC 27 MkIII From: Jim Watts via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 10:10 AM To: jackbrennan ; 1 CnC List Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Paul, you will be happy to know you can keep track of your boat when it's out there. http://bulletcam.ca/images/portfolio/axisq60.jpg The view changes every so often, but rotates through about six set angles. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Paul: Forgive me in that I don't exactly know your boatmy old age seems to recall you saying it was a CC 27..two (2) 1/2 lines as your bridle with chafe covering out through your fairleads is quite adequate. If you go with that, I'd be more concerned with what is the mooring attached to on the bottom. Do you know for sure? I thought I did with my boat.there were supposed to be two (2) 45 gallon drums filed with concrete, and chained together 8 feet apart so that if the boat lifted one drum with the boat attached to only one, the chances of it lifting the second one 8 feet away should be remote...an 8 foot wave, storm surge where my boat is located, not likely, but nevertheless, not impossible but surely not sustained. A September storm a few years back, my boat dragged the mooring approx. 300 feet.no damage, other than some severe chaffe on the two 5/8 bridle(s) even with chaffe guards on the fairleads. Turned out I didn't have two 45 gallon drums of cement, just one, and my boat probably bounced that one during the wave surge highs the 300 feet from where it should have remained. So Paul, my boat dragged and/or bounced a 45 gallon drum filled with cement and never produced even a tiny crack in the gelcoat around the deck cleats; And remember, no matter where our boats are in a hurricane, they are always in God's handsthat's why we have insurance. Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 -84 Halifax, N.S. On 2015-03-14 6:37 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: It's not that the cleat is badly fitted on the foredeck, I think it's just undersized for a long-term unattended mooring. At most it will accommodate a 1/2 or so line, which I think is too small. Fine if you are on the boat and attending to it, but that's not going to be the case. Given that I would have to cut the rail to fit chocks, and replace that cleat for something bigger, I think I'll just go with fabricating a mounting block over the rail and putting cleats straight onto that, through-bolted and backed of course. Less points for chafe to happen, and it leaves the central cleat free if needed as well. Or maybe a bow eye, but attaching the lines to that may prove troublesome, not sure I want a big shackle smacking into the bow. Cheers, Paul. Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:10:15 -0700 To: jackbren...@bellsouth.net; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Paul, you will be happy to know you can keep track of your boat when it's out there. http://bulletcam.ca/images/portfolio/axisq60.jpg The view changes every so often, but rotates through about six set angles. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 14 March 2015 at 09:10, jackbrennan via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: As someone whose CC 25 went through 4 small and 1 large hurricanes on a mooring at Key Biscayne: You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an anchor line. Bigger is not necessarily better. In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms. I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in a storm. I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every few years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes. Duct tape makes good chafe guard in a fix. Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Tierra Verde, Fl. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®|PRO Original message From: Graham Collins via CnC-List Date:03/14/2015 11:06 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Paul Baker ,cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
You're probably right Rob, so I am going to shave a bit off the toerail and fit a couple of chocks, 5/8 bridles and lots of chafe protection and use the existing cleat (which when I looked this afternoon was larger than I had recalled). The glass under the rail is too uneven to have a backing plate which rules out putting a cleat there. I'm having a mooring put down by a reputable company, 5500lb concrete block, 3/4 load rated bottom chain, 1 polysteel to a short chain through the buoy to a top ring. The thing should be fine for holding a 35' boat at least, likely way more in our harbour. Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this. Cheers, Paul. Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:08:46 -0300 From: robertabb...@eastlink.ca To: pjbake...@hotmail.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Paul: Forgive me in that I don't exactly know your boatmy old age seems to recall you saying it was a CC 27..two (2) 1/2 lines as your bridle with chafe covering out through your fairleads is quite adequate. If you go with that, I'd be more concerned with what is the mooring attached to on the bottom. Do you know for sure? I thought I did with my boat.there were supposed to be two (2) 45 gallon drums filed with concrete, and chained together 8 feet apart so that if the boat lifted one drum with the boat attached to only one, the chances of it lifting the second one 8 feet away should be remote...an 8 foot wave, storm surge where my boat is located, not likely, but nevertheless, not impossible but surely not sustained. A September storm a few years back, my boat dragged the mooring approx. 300 feet.no damage, other than some severe chaffe on the two 5/8 bridle(s) even with chaffe guards on the fairleads. Turned out I didn't have two 45 gallon drums of cement, just one, and my boat probably bounced that one during the wave surge highs the 300 feet from where it should have remained. So Paul, my boat dragged and/or bounced a 45 gallon drum filled with cement and never produced even a tiny crack in the gelcoat around the deck cleats; And remember, no matter where our boats are in a hurricane, they are always in God's handsthat's why we have insurance. Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 -84 Halifax, N.S. On 2015-03-14 6:37 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: It's not that the cleat is badly fitted on the foredeck, I think it's just undersized for a long-term unattended mooring. At most it will accommodate a 1/2 or so line, which I think is too small. Fine if you are on the boat and attending to it, but that's not going to be the case. Given that I would have to cut the rail to fit chocks, and replace that cleat for something bigger, I think I'll just go with fabricating a mounting block over the rail and putting cleats straight onto that, through-bolted and backed of course. Less points for chafe to happen, and it leaves the central cleat free if needed as well. Or maybe a bow eye, but attaching the lines to that may prove troublesome, not sure I want a big shackle smacking into the bow. Cheers, Paul. Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:10:15 -0700 To: jackbren...@bellsouth.net; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Paul, you will be happy to know you can keep track of your boat when it's out there. http://bulletcam.ca/images/portfolio/axisq60.jpg The view changes every so often, but rotates through about six set angles. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 14 March 2015 at 09:10, jackbrennan via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: As someone whose CC 25 went through 4 small and 1 large hurricanes on a mooring at Key Biscayne: You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an anchor line. Bigger is not necessarily better. In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms. I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
It's not that the cleat is badly fitted on the foredeck, I think it's just undersized for a long-term unattended mooring. At most it will accommodate a 1/2 or so line, which I think is too small. Fine if you are on the boat and attending to it, but that's not going to be the case. Given that I would have to cut the rail to fit chocks, and replace that cleat for something bigger, I think I'll just go with fabricating a mounting block over the rail and putting cleats straight onto that, through-bolted and backed of course. Less points for chafe to happen, and it leaves the central cleat free if needed as well. Or maybe a bow eye, but attaching the lines to that may prove troublesome, not sure I want a big shackle smacking into the bow. Cheers, Paul. Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:10:15 -0700 To: jackbren...@bellsouth.net; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Paul, you will be happy to know you can keep track of your boat when it's out there. http://bulletcam.ca/images/portfolio/axisq60.jpg The view changes every so often, but rotates through about six set angles. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 14 March 2015 at 09:10, jackbrennan via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: As someone whose CC 25 went through 4 small and 1 large hurricanes on a mooring at Key Biscayne: You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an anchor line. Bigger is not necessarily better. In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms. I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in a storm. I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every few years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes. Duct tape makes good chafe guard in a fix. Jack BrennanFormer CC 25Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30Tierra Verde, Fl. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®|PRO Original message From: Graham Collins via CnC-List Date:03/14/2015 11:06 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Paul Baker ,cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
{{{You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an
anchor
line. Bigger is not necessarily better.
In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one
takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms.
I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main
culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a
perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in a
storm.
I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was
the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every few
years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes.}}}
What about using line snubbers for the main pennants and a safety backup
set to the maximum stretch of the snubber. This seems it would help the
shock loads on the pennants AND on the mooring line. Perhaps even run a
couple of snubbers in series to really reduce shock. Just an idea. Could
it work?
___
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Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Agree w Jim.
I had some bad experience w snubbers when the line went straight and the
snubbers just twisted so the line went straight and my boat was pinned against
the dock. I removed them and use only 3 strand twisted nylon and nylon double
braid for docklines. I met a gentleman who lives aboard his Hunter 34 however
who swears by snubbers for his boat. He has them on every dockline. He also
loves Tide Minders. Swears by both and tries to talk me into them whenever he
sees me. Different strokes.
Chuck
Resolute
1990 CC 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
- Original Message -
From: Jim Watts via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: Eric Cahn ec.turtl...@gmail.com, 1 CnC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 6:52:14 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Be very careful with snubbers. When I worked at West we had to replace several
sets of mooring lines that had been eaten by WM snubbers. Those were not a good
design at all.
Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
CC 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC
On 14 March 2015 at 15:42, Eric Cahn via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:
{{{You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an anchor
line. Bigger is not necessarily better.
In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one
takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms.
I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main
culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a
perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in a
storm.
I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was
the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every few
years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes.}}}
What about using line snubbers for the main pennants and a safety backup set to
the maximum stretch of the snubber. This seems it would help the shock loads on
the pennants AND on the mooring line. Perhaps even run a couple of snubbers in
series to really reduce shock. Just an idea. Could it work?
___
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___
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Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Jim wrote: Be very careful with snubbers. snip Right. I use a single snubber, tied on with a modified rolling hitch. It has held fine in 50 with gusts to 70, but after that it was about four feet longer. Now it's a dock line, and I have a new snubber. (Actually, I'm a few snubbers past that.) The whole 'snubber hook' thing is just a way to take your money. I'm totally into the rolling hitch, which has never failed and doesn't place the strain on a single link. I also truly am signed up for the cheap (relatively) 8 strand single braid that is just as strong as three strand braided rope but doesn't turn into a ball of nylon when you swing around for a few weeks or months. The good thing about the rolling hitch is that you can let the snubber loose and it will stay attached. When it gets ugly and you need to let out scope to avoid bigger issues, you can just let it go and tie on another snubber with a rolling hitch and save the boat. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Dang, act of God clause... Brent Driedger 27-5 Lake Winnipeg Sent from my iPhone On Mar 14, 2015, at 5:08 PM, robert via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: And remember, no matter where our boats are in a hurricane, they are always in God's handsthat's why we have insurance. Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 -84 Halifax, N.S. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Nyack Boat Club is on the Hudson River and the anchorage is unprotected. In
a north east blow this is seven miles of fetch. From the east there is
about 2 miles.
In the fall during a Nor'easter we would usually lose a boat or two. We
seemed to accept this as normal.
However after hurricane Sandy and losing 25% of the boats in our mooring
field, our boat club did extensive research and consultation with other
marinas and clubs as well as hardware manufacturers.
The results of the study yielded these recommendations.
http://www.nyackboatclub.org/content/nbc-mooring-tackle-minimum-recommendations-07242013-1041
.
Since Sandy, we have only had one boat break free.
The chocks on my cc 34/36 are too small for one inch line, so I opted for
a slightly different setup. The primary pendant is 3/4 Polydyne. The lazy
pendant is 1 polydyne with a 1/2 spectra pendant from the pendant through
the chock to the cleat. The lazy pendant combo is about 2 longer than the
primary pendant. All the pendants were pre-spliced with chafe guard on
them. The pendants are low stretch and the catenary of the heavy chain
absorbs the shock loading.
My boat has ridden out a few storms with 30kt sustained for more than 24
hours and gusts up to 50k with 3-4' + waves.
So if you can get fair leads from your existing chocks to a cleat(s), there
are options to use relatively small line.
Eric
34/36+
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Cahn via CnC-List
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
{{{You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an
anchor
line. Bigger is not necessarily better.
In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one
takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms.
I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main
culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a
perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in
a
storm.
I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was
the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every
few
years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes.}}}
What about using line snubbers for the main pennants and a safety backup
set to the maximum stretch of the snubber. This seems it would help the
shock loads on the pennants AND on the mooring line. Perhaps even run a
couple of snubbers in series to really reduce shock. Just an idea. Could
it work?
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Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
A lot of harbour masters on the East Coast would disagree with you. I am in 12-15' of water with 30' of 1 bottom chain and 15' of 5/8 top chain and 18' of pendants. It takes a lot to lift the bottom chain. Mooring rigs are designed to operate with much shorter scope than an anchor. With a rode of 150' the shock loading is distributed over much more line. If all your elasticity is in 20' of stretchy line, it may over heat and fail. We saw this during the hurricane, and thus advised against nylon pendants in favor of low stretch pendants and increased the weight of the chain, thus increasing the catenary. Eric On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 10:58 PM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I wouldn’t be so sure about the catenary providing much shock absorption. In about 30 knots of wind my mooring chain is pretty much stretched out taught. I have 30 feet of chain in 12 feet of water. Speaking of stretch, in Hurricane Charlie we had 150 feet of ½” nylon in 10 feet of water. It was like being on a giant rubber band J In the morning the anchor was dug in so deep we needed a CG patrol boat to help get it loose L From the looks of the line the anchor was at least **6 feet* under!* Joe Della Barba j...@dellabarba.com Coquina WWW.CRYC.ORG *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Brass via CnC-List *Sent:* Saturday, March 14, 2015 9:59 PM *To:* 'Paul Baker'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Like some of the others, I suspected your plan to use at least ¾” pendants to be overkill for a 27 foot boat. Someone else pointed out that you want some stretch to cushion the shock and ¾” line will have no stretch to speak of at the loads your boat will generate. But the desirability of stretch is more appropriate for an anchor rode and not a mooring pendant. At a mooring, the cushioning is a result of the extra chain and catenary between the mooring ball and anchor; your pendant would probably only have a few inches of stretch over its relatively short length. To see if ¾” line is really overkill, I spent a few minutes doing research on the Boat US site, Fortress and Mantus anchors sites, and a site having engineering standards for different types of rope. There is an ABYC table on the Boat/US site showing the following for the estimated load on an anchor and rode based on boat size and wind speed. The data is: Wind Speed 30kt 42kt 60kt Working storm violent storm Boat size 25’490lb 980lb1440lb 30’700lb 1400lb 2800lb 35’900lb1800lb 3600lb These numbers are pretty consistent with what I found on the sites for the anchor companies for anchor load numbers. The rope specs show the following for minimum break strength for medium lay 3-strand nylon: 7/16” ½” 9/16” 5/8” ¾” 4320lb 5670lb 7200lb 8910lb 12780lb Recommendations vary on the working load to max break strength ratio. As low as 3:1, 4:1 seems common, but Mantus says 8:1. At 4:1 the working loads are: 7/16”= 1080 ½”=1420 9/16”=18005/8”=2230 ¾”=3195 At 8:1 540 710 900 1115 1600 For boats anchoring in 30 knots of wind, Mantus and others recommend: 20-30’ 11000pounds9/16 30-35’ 15000 ½ 35-40’ 2 5/8 West marine suggests 1/8” of diameter for each 8’ of length for heavy boats with high windage. So for a 32’ boat that would be that would be ½” diameter. Add another 1/8” for storm conditions. Boat/US recommends the following in 30kts.: 25’ boat=3/8”, 30’=7/16”, 35’=1/2”. But, hey, they’re mostly talking to power boaters. On one of the sites there was a note that deck cleats are generally installed in such a way as to resist a minimum 3400 pound load. I don’t know if that is some sort of standard or just an observation. You plan to run a single pendant, with a somewhat longer backup in case the first breaks. For a 30’ boat, at 4:1 safety factor, at 42kt winds, it looks like you need ½” line. In a hurricane ¾”. Or you could use the system I did when I was on a mooring and use two ½” diameter pendants of equal length. Smaller diameter would let you install a pair of chocks instead of heavy cleats with a high load. And you can use your existing deck cleat. The pendants would be less expensive and easier to handle when picking up the mooring. Two pendants would easily handle the loads from a severe storm. And the equal length pendants on either side of the bow would act, to a certain extent, like a bridle to reduce the extent the boat sails from
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Like some of the others, I suspected your plan to use at least ¾ pendants to be overkill for a 27 foot boat. Someone else pointed out that you want some stretch to cushion the shock and ¾ line will have no stretch to speak of at the loads your boat will generate. But the desirability of stretch is more appropriate for an anchor rode and not a mooring pendant. At a mooring, the cushioning is a result of the extra chain and catenary between the mooring ball and anchor; your pendant would probably only have a few inches of stretch over its relatively short length. To see if ¾ line is really overkill, I spent a few minutes doing research on the Boat US site, Fortress and Mantus anchors sites, and a site having engineering standards for different types of rope. There is an ABYC table on the Boat/US site showing the following for the estimated load on an anchor and rode based on boat size and wind speed. The data is: Wind Speed 30kt 42kt 60kt Working storm violent storm Boat size 25490lb980lb 1440lb 30700lb1400lb 2800lb 35900lb1800lb 3600lb These numbers are pretty consistent with what I found on the sites for the anchor companies for anchor load numbers. The rope specs show the following for minimum break strength for medium lay 3-strand nylon: 7/16 ½ 9/16 5/8 ¾ 4320lb 5670lb 7200lb 8910lb 12780lb Recommendations vary on the working load to max break strength ratio. As low as 3:1, 4:1 seems common, but Mantus says 8:1. At 4:1 the working loads are: 7/16= 1080 ½=1420 9/16=18005/8=2230 ¾=3195 At 8:1 540 710 900 1115 1600 For boats anchoring in 30 knots of wind, Mantus and others recommend: 20-30 11000pounds9/16 30-35 15000 ½ 35-40 2 5/8 West marine suggests 1/8 of diameter for each 8 of length for heavy boats with high windage. So for a 32 boat that would be that would be ½ diameter. Add another 1/8 for storm conditions. Boat/US recommends the following in 30kts.: 25 boat=3/8, 30=7/16, 35=1/2. But, hey, theyre mostly talking to power boaters. On one of the sites there was a note that deck cleats are generally installed in such a way as to resist a minimum 3400 pound load. I dont know if that is some sort of standard or just an observation. You plan to run a single pendant, with a somewhat longer backup in case the first breaks. For a 30 boat, at 4:1 safety factor, at 42kt winds, it looks like you need ½ line. In a hurricane ¾. Or you could use the system I did when I was on a mooring and use two ½ diameter pendants of equal length. Smaller diameter would let you install a pair of chocks instead of heavy cleats with a high load. And you can use your existing deck cleat. The pendants would be less expensive and easier to handle when picking up the mooring. Two pendants would easily handle the loads from a severe storm. And the equal length pendants on either side of the bow would act, to a certain extent, like a bridle to reduce the extent the boat sails from side to side on the mooring. Good luck Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC On 2015-03-13 9:28 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
I wouldnt be so sure about the catenary providing much shock absorption. In about 30 knots of wind my mooring chain is pretty much stretched out taught. I have 30 feet of chain in 12 feet of water. Speaking of stretch, in Hurricane Charlie we had 150 feet of ½ nylon in 10 feet of water. It was like being on a giant rubber band :) In the morning the anchor was dug in so deep we needed a CG patrol boat to help get it loose :( From the looks of the line the anchor was at least *6 feet* under! Joe Della Barba j...@dellabarba.com mailto:j...@dellabarba.com Coquina WWW.CRYC.ORG From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 9:59 PM To: 'Paul Baker'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Like some of the others, I suspected your plan to use at least ¾ pendants to be overkill for a 27 foot boat. Someone else pointed out that you want some stretch to cushion the shock and ¾ line will have no stretch to speak of at the loads your boat will generate. But the desirability of stretch is more appropriate for an anchor rode and not a mooring pendant. At a mooring, the cushioning is a result of the extra chain and catenary between the mooring ball and anchor; your pendant would probably only have a few inches of stretch over its relatively short length. To see if ¾ line is really overkill, I spent a few minutes doing research on the Boat US site, Fortress and Mantus anchors sites, and a site having engineering standards for different types of rope. There is an ABYC table on the Boat/US site showing the following for the estimated load on an anchor and rode based on boat size and wind speed. The data is: Wind Speed 30kt 42kt 60kt Working storm violent storm Boat size 25490lb980lb 1440lb 30700lb1400lb 2800lb 35900lb1800lb 3600lb These numbers are pretty consistent with what I found on the sites for the anchor companies for anchor load numbers. The rope specs show the following for minimum break strength for medium lay 3-strand nylon: 7/16 ½ 9/16 5/8 ¾ 4320lb 5670lb 7200lb 8910lb 12780lb Recommendations vary on the working load to max break strength ratio. As low as 3:1, 4:1 seems common, but Mantus says 8:1. At 4:1 the working loads are: 7/16= 1080 ½=1420 9/16=18005/8=2230 ¾=3195 At 8:1 540 710 900 1115 1600 For boats anchoring in 30 knots of wind, Mantus and others recommend: 20-30 11000pounds9/16 30-35 15000 ½ 35-40 2 5/8 West marine suggests 1/8 of diameter for each 8 of length for heavy boats with high windage. So for a 32 boat that would be that would be ½ diameter. Add another 1/8 for storm conditions. Boat/US recommends the following in 30kts.: 25 boat=3/8, 30=7/16, 35=1/2. But, hey, theyre mostly talking to power boaters. On one of the sites there was a note that deck cleats are generally installed in such a way as to resist a minimum 3400 pound load. I dont know if that is some sort of standard or just an observation. You plan to run a single pendant, with a somewhat longer backup in case the first breaks. For a 30 boat, at 4:1 safety factor, at 42kt winds, it looks like you need ½ line. In a hurricane ¾. Or you could use the system I did when I was on a mooring and use two ½ diameter pendants of equal length. Smaller diameter would let you install a pair of chocks instead of heavy cleats with a high load. And you can use your existing deck cleat. The pendants would be less expensive and easier to handle when picking up the mooring. Two pendants would easily handle the loads from a severe storm. And the equal length pendants on either side of the bow would act, to a certain extent, like a bridle to reduce the extent the boat sails from side to side on the mooring. Good luck Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC On 2015-03-13 9:28 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
It really depends on how protected an anchorage is in a particular storm. Wind is a secondary concern, as long as you strip the boat. If there's a small fetch, a well- designed mooring in a well-protected anchorage is not at risk with normal precautions. My CC 25 rode out 4 small hurricanes with few problems other than a couple of snapped lines. 60-70 MPh shouldn't be a big deal. When the wind shifted, though, allowing 120 MPh gusts to roar for 4-5 miles before slamming into my boat, that was different ... and eventually wrecked her. You want the stretch in mooring lines for those rare occasions when the seas are rolling into your anchorage. Everything is going to be taut, and something has to give when the strain is great. Chain won't do much to help. Those lines will snap periodically, and you just have to hope you have enough of them to outlast the storm. Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®|PRO Original message From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com Date:03/14/2015 10:58 PM (GMT-05:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring I___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Be very careful with snubbers. When I worked at West we had to replace
several sets of mooring lines that had been eaten by WM snubbers. Those
were not a good design at all.
Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
CC 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC
On 14 March 2015 at 15:42, Eric Cahn via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:
{{{You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an
anchor
line. Bigger is not necessarily better.
In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one
takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms.
I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main
culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a
perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in
a
storm.
I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was
the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every
few
years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes.}}}
What about using line snubbers for the main pennants and a safety backup
set to the maximum stretch of the snubber. This seems it would help the
shock loads on the pennants AND on the mooring line. Perhaps even run a
couple of snubbers in series to really reduce shock. Just an idea. Could
it work?
___
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bottom of page at:
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Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Thanks Rick - good info. The only thing it doesn't take into account is chafe, and that nylon can be as much as 20% weaker if wet. I'd want a pretty big margin for that. I am considering the Yale Maxi-Moor pendants, good elongation, good protection against chafe etc, but they seem to recommend pretty big lines. From: rickbr...@earthlink.net To: pjbake...@hotmail.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: RE: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 21:59:02 -0400 Like some of the others, I suspected your plan to use at least ¾” pendants to be overkill for a 27 foot boat. Someone else pointed out that you want some stretch to cushion the shock and ¾” line will have no stretch to speak of at the loads your boat will generate. But the desirability of stretch is more appropriate for an anchor rode and not a mooring pendant. At a mooring, the cushioning is a result of the extra chain and catenary between the mooring ball and anchor; your pendant would probably only have a few inches of stretch over its relatively short length. To see if ¾” line is really overkill, I spent a few minutes doing research on the Boat US site, Fortress and Mantus anchors sites, and a site having engineering standards for different types of rope. There is an ABYC table on the Boat/US site showing the following for the estimated load on an anchor and rode based on boat size and wind speed. The data is: Wind Speed 30kt 42kt 60kt Working storm violent stormBoat size25’490lb980lb 1440lb30’700lb 1400lb 2800lb35’900lb 1800lb 3600lbThese numbers are pretty consistent with what I found on the sites for the anchor companies for anchor load numbers. The rope specs show the following for minimum break strength for medium lay 3-strand nylon:7/16” ½” 9/16” 5/8” ¾”4320lb 5670lb 7200lb 8910lb 12780lb Recommendations vary on the working load to max break strength ratio. As low as 3:1, 4:1 seems common, but Mantus says 8:1.At 4:1 the working loads are: 7/16”= 1080 ½”=1420 9/16”=1800 5/8”=2230 ¾”=3195At 8:1 540 710 900 1115 1600 For boats anchoring in 30 knots of wind, Mantus and others recommend:20-30’ 11000pounds9/1630-35’ 15000 ½35-40’ 2 5/8 West marine suggests 1/8” of diameter for each 8’ of length for heavy boats with high windage. So for a 32’ boat that would be that would be ½” diameter. Add another 1/8” for storm conditions. Boat/US recommends the following in 30kts.: 25’ boat=3/8”, 30’=7/16”, 35’=1/2”. But, hey, they’re mostly talking to power boaters. On one of the sites there was a note that deck cleats are generally installed in such a way as to resist a minimum 3400 pound load. I don’t know if that is some sort of standard or just an observation. You plan to run a single pendant, with a somewhat longer backup in case the first breaks. For a 30’ boat, at 4:1 safety factor, at 42kt winds, it looks like you need ½” line. In a hurricane ¾”. Or you could use the system I did when I was on a mooring and use two ½” diameter pendants of equal length. Smaller diameter would let you install a pair of chocks instead of heavy cleats with a high load. And you can use your existing deck cleat. The pendants would be less expensive and easier to handle when picking up the mooring. Two pendants would easily handle the loads from a severe storm. And the equal length pendants on either side of the bow would act, to a certain extent, like a bridle to reduce the extent the boat sails from side to side on the mooring. Good luck Rick BrassImzadi CC 38 mk 2la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1Washington, NC On 2015-03-13 9:28 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote:So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
My experience with CCs and my own mooring lead me to believe they did a good job anchoring deck hardware. Chafe is your enemy, not the cleats pulling out. Joe Della Barba j...@dellabarba.com mailto:j...@dellabarba.com Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 9:46 PM To: 'Paul Baker'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring If your 27 is like my 1975 25, the foredeck is cored with ¾ marine plywood. I have a central cleat with a teak backing plate. There are chocks on either side of the stem fitting on my 25, near the bow. When the 25 lived on a mooring back in the 90s (for about 4 years), I had two equal length pendants on the mooring ball. Each had an eye in the end. I used a pick up stick on a float that I used to hold the eyes together when I was away from the mooring, and to make picking up the mooring much easier. One of the pendants was routed through each chock, with the eyes of both pendants over the central cleat. Nylon webbing over the pendants where they went through the chocks. Never had a problem, even in strong Noreasters in Delaware Bay. I wouldnt use this system in a hurricane, though. For hurricanes (5 since I moved to NC, plus 5 or 6 more near misses) I take the boat up a creek where the wind will have little or no fetch. Two anchors go from the bow out at 120 degrees, with the bow pointed in the direction that should see the greatest wind. (I think of this as upstream, though it is usually actually downstream of the normal current in the creek.) Both rodes come through the chocks and are cleated on the central cleat. The tails of the rodes do go back to the mast, where they are tied off as insurance against failure of the bow cleat. A third anchor is set aft (downstream) to keep the boat from swinging and to keep it in place when the wind and current reverse after the eye of the hurricane passes. This has worked for me in local winds up to about 80 knots. One time I came back to retrieve my boat after a storm, and found two other boats hanging on mine. Boat 1 had dragged and fouled the anchor of boat 2, then both dragged down on me. The tangled anchor rodes got caught on my bow, and I had one of the wandering boats on either beam of my boat. Based on my experience, you may find the original cleat installation by CC quite adequate for your needs. I would make sure that you have a good chock on either side of the bow, since you indicate you do not have them now. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Paul Baker via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 8:28 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. My current deck hardware consists of a central 6 or so cleat, with a small teak backing plate. An anchor roller of unknown quality and fit (I have never used it), and a small chock that serves no purpose since the hawse pipe blocks a fair lead from the cleat to the chock. Deck is balsa cored glass, toerail is standard CC, so an aluminum L section perforated rail bolted though the deck and hull on roughly 3-4 intervals. Basically, whatever I do is going to require a fair amount of work. Given this, I can't decide on the best route. 1. Try to find some way of putting a cleat on the rail at each side of the bow - this will likely involve fabricating some sort of mounting block, bolting the cleat to that, and then through the rail/deck. 2. Fit some chocks (which will likely involve cutting the vertical part of the L section off) and replace the central cleat with a bigger one, with a bigger backing plate. 3. Fit a bow eye and moor to that - this might involve running a temp 3rd mooring line to the deck cleat and then releasing the shackle(s) from the dinghy, I haven't got on the boat to see if it's feasible from there. 4. Something else I haven't thought of yet. I'm thinking that option 3 might actually be the better route - doesn't involve disturbing the toerail at all, and while not the most convenient, it might have some advantages, namely much less chance of chafe, and a lower attachment point gives me better scope, plus I'd only have to drill two holes through glass. I kind of need to make a decision in the next day or three so that I can get the bits and get going, boat will need to be on the mooring for April 1st, so I have two weekends after this one. Mooring will be in Tsehum Harbour, in Sidney, BC
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Paul, you will be happy to know you can keep track of your boat when it's out there. http://bulletcam.ca/images/portfolio/axisq60.jpg The view changes every so often, but rotates through about six set angles. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 14 March 2015 at 09:10, jackbrennan via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: As someone whose CC 25 went through 4 small and 1 large hurricanes on a mooring at Key Biscayne: You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an anchor line. Bigger is not necessarily better. In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms. I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in a storm. I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every few years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes. Duct tape makes good chafe guard in a fix. Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Tierra Verde, Fl. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®|PRO Original message From: Graham Collins via CnC-List Date:03/14/2015 11:06 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Paul Baker ,cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
That is true, but there is obviously a logical limit to that. Heck, why stop at 3/4??? When there is a storm coming I shackle a second pair of longer pendants onto the chain as backups. Graham Collins Secret Plans CC 35-III #11 On 2015-03-14 2:33 AM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: I wish I'd used smaller mooring lines for that storm, said no-one ever :) I'd rather go big and have that extra margin of safety. I alas have no usable chocks as previously noted, so given I have no easy solution, I'd rather do it right - whatever that is. A buoy mast/hook looks a fine idea indeed. Cheers, Paul. Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 23:27:45 -0300 From: cnclistforw...@hotmail.com To: pjbake...@hotmail.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Hi Paul My boat lives on a mooring, the setup is a chock on each side and a cleat aft of each. I would not use the anchor roller for mooring lines. 3/4 pendants are overkill, I'm running 3/4 and am probably 12000 lbs. I had an Aloha 27, I used 5/8 pendants for it, similar size to the CC 27. If you single hand your boat I'd also recommend getting a mast buoy - fastened to one pendant it makes retrieval very easy. I have a ring on one pendant that lets me unclip it when the boat is moored. Graham Collins Secret Plans CC 35-III #11 On 2015-03-13 9:28 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. My current deck hardware consists of a central 6 or so cleat, with a small teak backing plate. An anchor roller of unknown quality and fit (I have never used it), and a small chock that serves no purpose since the hawse pipe blocks a fair lead from the cleat to the chock. Deck is balsa cored glass, toerail is standard CC, so an aluminum L section perforated rail bolted though the deck and hull on roughly 3-4 intervals. Basically, whatever I do is going to require a fair amount of work. Given this, I can't decide on the best route. 1. Try to find some way of putting a cleat on the rail at each side of the bow - this will likely involve fabricating some sort of mounting block, bolting the cleat to that, and then through the rail/deck. 2. Fit some chocks (which will likely involve cutting the vertical part of the L section off) and replace the central cleat with a bigger one, with a bigger backing plate. 3. Fit a bow eye and moor to that - this might involve running a temp 3rd mooring line to the deck cleat and then releasing the shackle(s) from the dinghy, I haven't got on the boat to see if it's feasible from there. 4. Something else I haven't thought of yet. I'm thinking that option 3 might actually be the better route - doesn't involve disturbing the toerail at all, and while not the most convenient, it might have some advantages, namely much less chance of chafe, and a lower attachment point gives me better scope, plus I'd only have to drill two holes through glass. I kind of need to make a decision in the next day or three so that I can get the bits and get going, boat will need to be on the mooring for April 1st, so I have two weekends after this one. Mooring will be in Tsehum Harbour, in Sidney, BC. No hurricanes here, 40kts is the highest gust speed recorded in Sidney in the last 10 years. What would my fellow CC'ers suggest? Cheers, Paul Orange Crush 1974 CC27 MkII Sidney, BC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
As someone whose CC 25 went through 4 small and 1 large hurricanes on a mooring at Key Biscayne: You want to size mooring lines so there is some give, just like an anchor line. Bigger is not necessarily better. In a large storm, stagger maybe 5 lines of different length so that one takes over as another breaks. They will break in big storms. I never saw a mooring cleat pull out. Lines always went first. A main culprit was an unusually large wave that would pull the bow up and snap a perfectly good, protected line. Make the lines as long as they can be in a storm. I was on a helix mooring. The anchors always held, but a weak point was the line from the helix to the mooring. They need to be replaced every few years or after particularly bad storms like hurricanes. Duct tape makes good chafe guard in a fix. Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Tierra Verde, Fl. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®|PRO Original message From: Graham Collins via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com Date:03/14/2015 11:06 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Paul Baker pjbake...@hotmail.com,cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring null___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
Hi Paul My boat lives on a mooring, the setup is a chock on each side and a cleat aft of each. I would not use the anchor roller for mooring lines. 3/4 pendants are overkill, I'm running 3/4 and am probably 12000 lbs. I had an Aloha 27, I used 5/8 pendants for it, similar size to the CC 27. If you single hand your boat I'd also recommend getting a mast buoy - fastened to one pendant it makes retrieval very easy. I have a ring on one pendant that lets me unclip it when the boat is moored. Graham Collins Secret Plans CC 35-III #11 On 2015-03-13 9:28 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. My current deck hardware consists of a central 6 or so cleat, with a small teak backing plate. An anchor roller of unknown quality and fit (I have never used it), and a small chock that serves no purpose since the hawse pipe blocks a fair lead from the cleat to the chock. Deck is balsa cored glass, toerail is standard CC, so an aluminum L section perforated rail bolted though the deck and hull on roughly 3-4 intervals. Basically, whatever I do is going to require a fair amount of work. Given this, I can't decide on the best route. 1. Try to find some way of putting a cleat on the rail at each side of the bow - this will likely involve fabricating some sort of mounting block, bolting the cleat to that, and then through the rail/deck. 2. Fit some chocks (which will likely involve cutting the vertical part of the L section off) and replace the central cleat with a bigger one, with a bigger backing plate. 3. Fit a bow eye and moor to that - this might involve running a temp 3rd mooring line to the deck cleat and then releasing the shackle(s) from the dinghy, I haven't got on the boat to see if it's feasible from there. 4. Something else I haven't thought of yet. I'm thinking that option 3 might actually be the better route - doesn't involve disturbing the toerail at all, and while not the most convenient, it might have some advantages, namely much less chance of chafe, and a lower attachment point gives me better scope, plus I'd only have to drill two holes through glass. I kind of need to make a decision in the next day or three so that I can get the bits and get going, boat will need to be on the mooring for April 1st, so I have two weekends after this one. Mooring will be in Tsehum Harbour, in Sidney, BC. No hurricanes here, 40kts is the highest gust speed recorded in Sidney in the last 10 years. What would my fellow CC'ers suggest? Cheers, Paul Orange Crush 1974 CC27 MkII Sidney, BC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring
I wish I'd used smaller mooring lines for that storm, said no-one ever :) I'd rather go big and have that extra margin of safety. I alas have no usable chocks as previously noted, so given I have no easy solution, I'd rather do it right - whatever that is. A buoy mast/hook looks a fine idea indeed. Cheers, Paul. Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 23:27:45 -0300 From: cnclistforw...@hotmail.com To: pjbake...@hotmail.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck hardware for mooring Hi Paul My boat lives on a mooring, the setup is a chock on each side and a cleat aft of each. I would not use the anchor roller for mooring lines. 3/4 pendants are overkill, I'm running 3/4 and am probably 12000 lbs. I had an Aloha 27, I used 5/8 pendants for it, similar size to the CC 27. If you single hand your boat I'd also recommend getting a mast buoy - fastened to one pendant it makes retrieval very easy. I have a ring on one pendant that lets me unclip it when the boat is moored. Graham Collins Secret Plans CC 35-III #11 On 2015-03-13 9:28 PM, Paul Baker via CnC-List wrote: So, I am going to be moving my boat from a nice, safe and secluded slip, to a mooring buoy out in the harbour. Yes, the mooring is big enough, yes I will be using at least 2 unequal pendants of good quality (probably at least 3/4), and yes I will be using chafe guard where appropriate. Assume also that any hardware would have backing plates as large as practically possible. My current deck hardware consists of a central 6 or so cleat, with a small teak backing plate. An anchor roller of unknown quality and fit (I have never used it), and a small chock that serves no purpose since the hawse pipe blocks a fair lead from the cleat to the chock. Deck is balsa cored glass, toerail is standard CC, so an aluminum L section perforated rail bolted though the deck and hull on roughly 3-4 intervals. Basically, whatever I do is going to require a fair amount of work. Given this, I can't decide on the best route. 1. Try to find some way of putting a cleat on the rail at each side of the bow - this will likely involve fabricating some sort of mounting block, bolting the cleat to that, and then through the rail/deck. 2. Fit some chocks (which will likely involve cutting the vertical part of the L section off) and replace the central cleat with a bigger one, with a bigger backing plate. 3. Fit a bow eye and moor to that - this might involve running a temp 3rd mooring line to the deck cleat and then releasing the shackle(s) from the dinghy, I haven't got on the boat to see if it's feasible from there. 4. Something else I haven't thought of yet. I'm thinking that option 3 might actually be the better route - doesn't involve disturbing the toerail at all, and while not the most convenient, it might have some advantages, namely much less chance of chafe, and a lower attachment point gives me better scope, plus I'd only have to drill two holes through glass. I kind of need to make a decision in the next day or three so that I can get the bits and get going, boat will need to be on the mooring for April 1st, so I have two weekends after this one. Mooring will be in Tsehum Harbour, in Sidney, BC. No hurricanes here, 40kts is the highest gust speed recorded in Sidney in the last 10 years. What would my fellow CC'ers suggest? Cheers, Paul Orange Crush 1974 CC27 MkII Sidney, BC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
