Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Mason]

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Dirk-Willem van Gulik writes:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Ben Laurie wrote:
> 
> > > Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme
> 
> > Get real. How is that going to happen? Are you seriously suggesting that
> > the ASF is responsible for what people post to lists?
> 
> > > For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that
> 
> Heck - community@ is a good thing, a place to vent things and do some
> plotting to overtage the governement; and we even have, shudder, horror,
> calvanist shock, lists which may tempt people to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hey all --

recent arrival speaking up ;)

IMO, ASF-wide community lists make sense -- especially to foster the
social aspects of the ASF.   Perhaps if liability is an issue, a few
prominent disclaimers would do the trick!

- --j.
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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Ben Laurie wrote:

> > Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme

> Get real. How is that going to happen? Are you seriously suggesting that
> the ASF is responsible for what people post to lists?

> > For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that

Heck - community@ is a good thing, a place to vent things and do some
plotting to overtage the governement; and we even have, shudder, horror,
calvanist shock, lists which may tempt people to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dw.

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Ben Laurie]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:20 PM -0400 Brian McCallister 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to discuss a topic via email, and think
a mailing list would help, there should be a mechanism to simply have it
created, bang. Just my 2 cents =)

Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme 
caution. Lists without the necessary oversight might expose the ASF to 
unwanted liability.
Get real. How is that going to happen? Are you seriously suggesting that 
the ASF is responsible for what people post to lists?

 The ASF isn't a personal soapbox medium: it's meant 
to facilitate collaborative software projects.

For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that 
adds little value: almost every topic here has a more appropriate list 
elsewhere in the ASF (or, ideally, outside of the ASF).  But, people 
seem to use this list as a dumping ground and are often too lazy to 
think about what the 'proper' list is - instead they just post to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
That is not an example of exposing ASF to unwanted liability.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html   http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:20 PM -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

He seems to feel that a Member can create a list and provide oversight.
FWIW, the 'official' policy is documented at:

--
Creating the List
Ask your Project Management Committee to send email to the folks at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--

and at:

--
Q: I need to request some changes to infrastructure?
A: You might notice something that needs changing, for example the 
configuration for a mailing list. The request to the infrastructure@ list or 
the apmail@ alias needs to come from your Project Management Committee. That 
ensures that the requests are official, and not just an individual user's 
desire. This is the same for all requests for infrastructure changes.
--

We've had this conversation before and even codified that requests must come 
from some 'official' entity not an individual on their own.  So, that's our 
current policy...

And
who is going to oversee the new [EMAIL PROTECTED] list that we were asked to
do?
As for jobs@, I think the PRC may be the appropriate party to provide 
oversight to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I'll ping them and see what they think.  -- justin

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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > "Do it yourself" scales, and I would think that any ASF member should be
> > able to create a list, given evident consensus. We did the same for the
> > Incubator files, remember?

> Uh, no.  That's the argument here: lists require the appropriate oversight
> structure.

I believe he was referring to the maintenance effort scaling.

> No member should be allowed to create a list by themselves.  A PMC
> or the board is the *only* legitimate requestors for new ASF
> mailing lists.

> Part of infrastructure@'s mandate is to ensure that the oversight
> structures are followed and the ASF is protected.

He seems to feel that a Member can create a list and provide oversight.  And
who is going to oversee the new [EMAIL PROTECTED] list that we were asked to
do?

I'm just pointing out the questions.

--- Noel


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:07 PM +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

"Do it yourself" scales, and I would think that any ASF member should be
able to create a list, given evident consensus. We did the same for the
Incubator files, remember?
Uh, no.  That's the argument here: lists require the appropriate oversight 
structure.  No member should be allowed to create a list by themselves.  A PMC 
or the board is the *only* legitimate requestors for new ASF mailing lists.

Part of infrastructure@'s mandate is to ensure that the oversight structures 
are followed and the ASF is protected.  -- justin

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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Noel J. Bergman]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > I don't think you have any idea how much goes into creating a new list.
> > I just did a quick count.  There are 16+ commands to execute on 3 ASF
> > servers, plus a file in CVS that needs to be edited, committed, and
> > updated on minotaur.  Per list.  And a dev or user list is different
> > from a commit record list which differs from a private list.

> An app or scripts to make this easy are not only a nice thing to have,
> but a hard necessity as I see now.

Berin started to give it a shot.  Not sure where he left off.  And Brian
suggested looking at anzu.  Volunteers are certainly welcomed to help.  One
doesn't need the access writes to be able to write scripts.  And if we can
get a test server ready, we might be able to setup a testing environment.

> "Do it yourself" scales, and I would think that any ASF member should be
> able to create a list, given evident consensus.

Yes, it scales as an infrastructure thing, but perhaps not for effective
communication.  The second part of your statement might provide sufficient
control, but first we need the tools.

--- Noel


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Apart from the fact that you have put much more energy in talking
against this than creating the list (hint hint ;-) ...
I don't think you have any idea how much goes into creating a new list.  I
just did a quick count.  There are 16+ commands to execute on 3 ASF servers,
plus a file in CVS that needs to be edited, committed, and updated on
minotaur.  Per list.  And a dev or user list is different from a commit
record list which differs from a private list.
Then we have a *big* problem.
An app or scripts to make this easy are not only a nice thing to have, 
but a hard necessity as I see now.

"Do it yourself" scales, and I would think that any ASF member should be 
able to create a list, given evident consensus. We did the same for the 
Incubator files, remember?

The fact that Apache members (that are thus trusted) cannot do it on 
their own (lack of knowledge and too much effort) and must bug the poor 
infra guys is a big problem.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Apart from the fact that you have put much more energy in talking
> against this than creating the list (hint hint ;-) ...

I don't think you have any idea how much goes into creating a new list.  I
just did a quick count.  There are 16+ commands to execute on 3 ASF servers,
plus a file in CVS that needs to be edited, committed, and updated on
minotaur.  Per list.  And a dev or user list is different from a commit
record list which differs from a private list.

Unfortunately, I am not sure whom else besides Berin Lautenbach and I has a
complete list of all the steps.  It used to be that Brian did much of the
ezmlm work, and the eyebrowse work was done later by Daniel.

The question of where or if to draw a line on lists is another matter, but
the effort involved in doing them is higher than you expect, and takes time
out from other things.  Having someone write scripts or work on
http://anzu.tigris.org might help.

--- Noel


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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Henning Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

if the information "everyone that is an ASF committer and wants to help
out can _subscribe_ to infrastructure@" would be more widely
disseminated, I'm pretty sure that more people will come. :-)

At least to me, this was not clear until a few minutes ago.

I just subscribed.

Regards
Henning


On Thu, 2004-07-22 at 09:43, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > If you are 'stuck' running the infrastructure, why don't you
> > let others help you?
> 
> The Infrastructure Team has put out requests for help for over a year on
> things that would really help.  There have been a number of people added
> over the past year, who work on specific areas, such as JIRA, the Wiki, etc.
> 
> Since last Fall we have added a number of additional root people (and will
> add one more this week).  Unfortunately, we have also grown significantly,
> and some of the people who previously did root work have curtailed their
> level of involvement, so it may not have been a net gain.
> 
> > I still found no way to communicate with the infrastructure people
> > to offer *help*.
> 
> infrastructure@ is the right, and obvious, place.
> 
> > When eyebrowse broke down (e.g. for the Turbine lists), I asked on
> > infrastructure@ and offered to help getting it back up
> 
> > However, it seems that "living in Silicon Valley" seems to be an
> > indispensable prerequisite to be considered as a helper for
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> The two people who currenly do the most with the mailing lists are Berin
> Lautenbach and myself.  I am three time zones ahead of Silicon Valley, and
> Berin is half-way around the world.  The current noise about needing people
> in Silicon Valley has to do with work at the colo center on installing new
> machines.
> 
> > Just being part of the community doesn't seem to be enough.
> 
> No, but you do have to be an ASF Member to have access to the mail server
> because it provides you with access to otherwise confidential information.
> Similarly for root access.
> 
>   --- Noel
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen  INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/
 
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development  -- hero for hire
   Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development

"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
 fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
 position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
 is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
 deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
   --Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"


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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Noel J. Bergman]

> If you are 'stuck' running the infrastructure, why don't you
> let others help you?

The Infrastructure Team has put out requests for help for over a year on
things that would really help.  There have been a number of people added
over the past year, who work on specific areas, such as JIRA, the Wiki, etc.

Since last Fall we have added a number of additional root people (and will
add one more this week).  Unfortunately, we have also grown significantly,
and some of the people who previously did root work have curtailed their
level of involvement, so it may not have been a net gain.

> I still found no way to communicate with the infrastructure people
> to offer *help*.

infrastructure@ is the right, and obvious, place.

> When eyebrowse broke down (e.g. for the Turbine lists), I asked on
> infrastructure@ and offered to help getting it back up

> However, it seems that "living in Silicon Valley" seems to be an
> indispensable prerequisite to be considered as a helper for
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The two people who currenly do the most with the mailing lists are Berin
Lautenbach and myself.  I am three time zones ahead of Silicon Valley, and
Berin is half-way around the world.  The current noise about needing people
in Silicon Valley has to do with work at the colo center on installing new
machines.

> Just being part of the community doesn't seem to be enough.

No, but you do have to be an ASF Member to have access to the mail server
because it provides you with access to otherwise confidential information.
Similarly for root access.

--- Noel


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:07 AM +0200 Henning Schmiedehausen 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Or tell those others here on community@, what we can do to be considered
as "junior infrastructure people" to relief your burdens.
You could start off by not using community@ to discuss infrastructure 
topics.  (I think Tetsuya started that unfortunate trend.)  infrastructure@ 
is the place to talk about those items not [EMAIL PROTECTED]

As for participating in infrastructure@ tasks here in the ASF, it's pretty 
much the same as open-source development: build trust with your peers over 
time.  I don't care if someone has managed a large fleet of servers 
elsewhere - if I don't trust them, I personally don't want them touching 
our servers.  (And, due to confidentiality restrictions, only members can 
get root access.)  Yet, try to jump in as best as you can.  Offer advice 
and help to others on [EMAIL PROTECTED]  And, oh yeah, do *not* attack 
people already involved as that's not going to endear you to anyone.  -- 
justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:54 PM +1000 David Crossley 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

BTW, i thought that Antonio's alert about another potential M$
attack was warranted. He seems to care for the ASF as a whole.
On which other list is he going to alert us all?
FWIW, the only sensible strategy to software patents is to ignore them 
completely until we get served with a lawsuit.  As much as it might sound 
foolish, it's almost the only way to legally protect ourselves.  -- justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Henning Schmiedehausen]

On Wed, 2004-07-21 at 23:50, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:01 PM -0400 Stefano Mazzocchi 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I completely disagree with this view.
> 
> I don't see why the ASF *has* to support water-cooler conversations.  It 
> just doesn't coincide with our mission.  Other people and sites can run 
> them individually outside of the ASF - I've no problem with that *at all*.

Because we are human beings. Huddling together around the camp fire and
swapping war stories is part of our nature. That's why I think that a
community@ list is appropriate. I don't consider myself a robot cranking
out code for the ASF. 

[...]

> I'm also peeved by the response of 'create a new mailing list' to almost 
> any problem.  It's terribly uncreative and places a *lot* of burden on 
> those who are stuck running the infrastructure.

Actually, I take offense of this paragraph. If you are 'stuck' running
the infrastructure, why don't you let others help you? I still found no
way to communicate with the infrastructure people to offer *help*. When
eyebrowse broke down (e.g. for the Turbine lists), I asked on
infrastructure@ and offered to help getting it back up (I do run a few
servers over here and am willing to help out with the daily burdens of
keeping a few servers on track). However, it seems that "living in
Silicon Valley" seems to be an indispensable prerequisite to be
considered as a helper for [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just being part of the
community doesn't seem to be enough.

So, yes, you are "stuck with running the infrastructure". Mainly because
(at least I feel like this) you (and I don't mean "you, Justin", but
"you, infrastructure") don't seem to want people help you.

Or tell those others here on community@, what we can do to be considered
as "junior infrastructure people" to relief your burdens.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen  INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/

Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services 
RHCE - Consultant - Jakarta Turbine Development  - hero for hire

"Fighting for one's political stand is an honourable action, but re-
 fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
 position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
 is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
 deserves to be on this list of the top five problems." 
   --Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"



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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Serge Knystautas]

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Please give me a hint on what can be posted on a mailing list, that a PMC can 
do anything about... Maybe that exists, but I can't imagine it.
- Proprietary source code (SCO's, DeCSS impl, etc...)
- Excessive profanity or beligerent discussions
- Slander (stretching...)
PMC oversight just means the organization (ASF) knows who is responsible 
to watch and report/correct whatever happens in there.

--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >>> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[David Crossley]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> 
> Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme caution. 
> Lists without the necessary oversight might expose the ASF to unwanted 
> liability.  The ASF isn't a personal soapbox medium: it's meant to 
> facilitate collaborative software projects.

Agree, on all of those points, with bells on.

> For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that adds 
> little value: almost every topic here has a more appropriate list elsewhere 
> in the ASF (or, ideally, outside of the ASF).

Disagree. There are many topics that need to be on a list
that reaches across projects. I often have issues that i
want to raise with a broader audience. Sure, we need to
think about it and send to other lists as appropriate.

> But, people seem to use this 
> list as a dumping ground and are often too lazy to think
> about what the 
> 'proper' list is - instead they just post to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Agree. People need to be discerning. We should either just
ignore inappropriate postings or ask the poster to desist.
The community should moderate them.

BTW, i thought that Antonio's alert about another potential M$
attack was warranted. He seems to care for the ASF as a whole.
On which other list is he going to alert us all?

-- 
David Crossley


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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Sander Striker]

> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:45 AM

> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> ...
> > Again, a list is fine.  I'd just prefer to find someone 
> else to host it: 
> > the ASF isn't the end-all-be-all to all of your hosting 
> needs.  And, 
> > obviously, feel free to invite all of the ASF folks to that 
> list.  --
> 
> Apart from the fact that you have put much more energy in 
> talking against this than creating the list (hint hint ;-) ...

Infrastructure has received no list creation request from
any PMC.


Sander


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Thursday 22 July 2004 14:36, Martin Cooper wrote:

> Uh, isn't that a bit like asking why we need PMCs to oversee the projects?
> After all, the only people who can make changes are the committers, and
> they surely all respect each other, right? ;-)

Code can contain legal problems that can be corrected, but what you throw up 
on the mailing lists goes into archives and burns into eternity.

> We need to demonstrate legal oversight for the content of the mailing
> lists just as much as we do the code in CVS / SVN.

Please give me a hint on what can be posted on a mailing list, that a PMC can 
do anything about... Maybe that exists, but I can't imagine it.

Niclas
-- 
   +--//---+
  / http://www.bali.ac/
 / http://niclas.hedhman.org / 
+--//---+


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RE: Inexpensive Lists

[Martin Cooper]

> -Original Message-
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:45 PM
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Inexpensive Lists
>
>
>
>
> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> ...
> > Again, a list is fine.  I'd just prefer to find someone else to
> host it:
> > the ASF isn't the end-all-be-all to all of your hosting needs.  And,
> > obviously, feel free to invite all of the ASF folks to that list.  --
>
> Apart from the fact that you have put much more energy in talking
> against this than creating the list (hint hint ;-) ...
>
> This reasoning it the one that makes Apache committers start projects at
> codehaus for example, where these things are not discussed to death but
> just done.

AFAIK, places like Codehaus also do not have the legal framework in place
that protects its members, and so doesn't have to demonstrate oversight in
the same way that the ASF does. The rules are different for a reason.

--
Martin Cooper


> People need more than just a dev list for a specific project to nuture
> aspirations and ideas. If we fail to give this, we will steadily loose
> involvment.
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> -
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>



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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
...
Again, a list is fine.  I'd just prefer to find someone else to host it: 
the ASF isn't the end-all-be-all to all of your hosting needs.  And, 
obviously, feel free to invite all of the ASF folks to that list.  -- 
Apart from the fact that you have put much more energy in talking 
against this than creating the list (hint hint ;-) ...

This reasoning it the one that makes Apache committers start projects at 
codehaus for example, where these things are not discussed to death but 
just done.

People need more than just a dev list for a specific project to nuture 
aspirations and ideas. If we fail to give this, we will steadily loose 
involvment.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-
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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[David N. Welton]

Niclas Hedhman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It is said that "ASF is ALL about the Community, not about code.",
> and if you are to live up to that, you must allow for people to
> 'socialize' and 'share experiences' with fellow ASFers in all
> aspects of life. That fosters a comradeship and a feeling of being
> 'part of' a community, not just free labor to forward a codebase.

It's possible to have communities elsewhere that are not part of
Apache.  The Tcl community, for instance is really a very good one.
The newsgroup is still the primary means of comunication, due in no
small part to the calm, friendly, helpful nature of even the most
expert participants.

I don't think it would make sense to have extra Tcl mailing lists with
the ASF, even if there were more of us - we already have a Tcl
community elsewhere.  From what I've seen, the Python community at
large is pretty good, too.

-- 
David N. Welton
 Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
   Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
   Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Martin Cooper]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Thursday 22 July 2004 05:50, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:01 PM -0400 Stefano Mazzocchi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I completely disagree with this view.
I don't see why the ASF *has* to support water-cooler conversations.  It
just doesn't coincide with our mission.  Other people and sites can run
them individually outside of the ASF - I've no problem with that *at all*.
Excuse me for being naive;
What the content is, that travels over the mailing list can hardly be an issue
for infrastructure@ to bother about. The amount of mails that are generated
here and other so called 'water-cooler conversations' can barely make a dent
in the total number of mails being sent. And if 'one more list' is a big
thing for infrastructure@ then that is a serious thing that needs to be
addressed differently, as ASF will continue to grow substantially over the
coming years.
As for overview of a non-PMC-related mailing list; What is the big deal with
overview, as the subscribers are all ASF committers, and already bound to
respect each other. What is there that can possibly be posted that needs
'oversight'??
Uh, isn't that a bit like asking why we need PMCs to oversee the projects? 
After all, the only people who can make changes are the committers, and 
they surely all respect each other, right? ;-)

We need to demonstrate legal oversight for the content of the mailing 
lists just as much as we do the code in CVS / SVN.

--
Martin Cooper
It is said that "ASF is ALL about the Community, not about code.", and if 
you
are to live up to that, you must allow for people to 'socialize' and 'share
experiences' with fellow ASFers in all aspects of life. That fosters a
comradeship and a feeling of being 'part of' a community, not just free labor
to forward a codebase.
Cheers
Niclas
--
  +--//---+
 / http://www.bali.ac/
/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
+--//---+
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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Thursday 22 July 2004 05:50, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:01 PM -0400 Stefano Mazzocchi
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I completely disagree with this view.
>
> I don't see why the ASF *has* to support water-cooler conversations.  It
> just doesn't coincide with our mission.  Other people and sites can run
> them individually outside of the ASF - I've no problem with that *at all*.

Excuse me for being naive;

What the content is, that travels over the mailing list can hardly be an issue 
for infrastructure@ to bother about. The amount of mails that are generated 
here and other so called 'water-cooler conversations' can barely make a dent 
in the total number of mails being sent. And if 'one more list' is a big 
thing for infrastructure@ then that is a serious thing that needs to be 
addressed differently, as ASF will continue to grow substantially over the 
coming years.

As for overview of a non-PMC-related mailing list; What is the big deal with 
overview, as the subscribers are all ASF committers, and already bound to 
respect each other. What is there that can possibly be posted that needs 
'oversight'??

It is said that "ASF is ALL about the Community, not about code.", and if you 
are to live up to that, you must allow for people to 'socialize' and 'share 
experiences' with fellow ASFers in all aspects of life. That fosters a 
comradeship and a feeling of being 'part of' a community, not just free labor 
to forward a codebase.


Cheers
Niclas
-- 
   +--//---+
  / http://www.bali.ac/
 / http://niclas.hedhman.org / 
+--//---+


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Adrian Sutton]

I think one thing folks are asking for is an 
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
one where idle questions and chitchat about cool solutions and code for
our servers and sites would be shared.

But I agree with Justin, beyond this purpose, I just don't see the 
need to
replace the vital external lists that already exist in the 
java/perl/php/python
worlds, etc.
I'd love to see this as the starting point for the python.apache.org 
community that groups together the python projects that Apache has in 
one place so people can find them (whether this is in the style of 
Jakarta or just a "federation" that points to the projects is a matter 
of details, oversight etc).  The success of Jakarta is nothing short of 
astounding - people think opensource Java, they think 
jakarta.apache.org.  That's fantastic and while we've had to work on a 
number of organizational issues to make the project work, don't let 
that distract from the success that the project has had and continues 
to have.

I love the idea of starting to build a python based community at Apache 
because I believe it will lead to creating more high quality software 
at Apache for the python community which in turn is good for Apache.

I'm not an Apache member so I can't really offer to help provide 
oversight for the list (I am on the Jakarta PMC but I don't think 
that's relevant).  I can volunteer to help moderate the list if that's 
needed though.  I'd love to see this get kick started and I am prepared 
to put my free time towards helping where I can.

For the record, I don't actually program in Python but it's still a 
great idea.

Bill
Adrian Sutton.
--
Intencha "tomorrow's technology today"
Ph: 38478913 0422236329
Suite 8/29 Oatland Crescent
Holland Park West 4121
Australia QLD
www.intencha.com


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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Henri Yandell]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> --On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:22 PM -0400 Henri Yandell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > list. Go read groklaw. However, discussions on whether a python community
> > should exist seem to be perfectly designed for the community list (unless
> > they cross-post to all python interested mailing lists), as it pertains
> > to the future of how Apache balances itself.
>
> Language-oriented TLPs have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be poor
> overseers of code.  The 'balancing of the ASF' brings back horrors of the
> reorg@ list which was another of those misguided lists...  -- justin

As far as I understood the language-oriented suggetions back in the reorg@
time, it was that they would be SF foundries, not projects; so the only
code they'd need to oversee would be those directly relevant to the
community (website, mailing list).

Hen


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Nick Chalko]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
I'm also peeved by the response of 'create a new mailing list' to 
almost any problem.  It's terribly uncreative and places a *lot* of 
burden on those who are stuck running the infrastructure.

Creating new mailing lists is what infra does,  Deciding what should be 
a list is what the Board and PMC's do. 
Let's not confuse the rolls.

I understand the fear of a list without oversight, so lets deal with that.
R,
Nick
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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Adam R. B. Jack]

>
> Language-oriented TLPs have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be poor
> overseers of code.  The 'balancing of the ASF' brings back horrors of the
> reorg@ list which was another of those misguided lists...  -- justin
>

If a general cross-project XML list is useful, why not one for languages?

http://xml.apache.org/mail.html#general

I'm not trying to start chit-chat groups, nor (sorry) anything to do w/
using Python on Apache HTTPD. I work on Gump, it is written in Python, lots
of ASF folks are newbies (like me) to Python, and I thought we could pool
efforts via an ASF-focused python list.

Ok. I'm done. If the point isn't communicated (ad nausea) by now, so be it.

regards,

Adam


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:40 PM -0500 "William A. Rowe, Jr." 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I think one thing folks are asking for is an
[EMAIL PROTECTED], one where idle questions and chitchat
about cool solutions and code for our servers and sites would be shared.
I wouldn't see an issue with ASF-related infrastructure chit-chat being on 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  community@ isn't the place for that, for sure.  -- justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Adam R. B. Jack]

> I guess it's that I don't follow the argument that topics not specifically
> tied to the ASF should be given a home within the ASF.  -- justin

Tie them to ASF. I don't want comp.lang.python, I want 'python as it relates
to ASF'.

regards

Adam


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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[William A. Rowe, Jr.]

At 05:33 PM 7/21/2004, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:10 PM -0600 "Adam R. B. Jack" <[EMAIL 
>PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Why do you keep assuming it is for chit chat? If it were [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>and it was clear (community imposed/whatever) to be about Java @ ASF,
>>wouldn't that make sense? Aren't there issues (i.e. supporting JDK1.5,
>>not supporting JDK 1.2, that are good cross-project topics?) I'm not
>>suggesting ASF host forums, but a list to discuss language
>>issues/tips-tricks and help w/ fixes/changes, whatever.
>
>I don't see why the ASF should be involved.  There are lots of other suitable 
>forums for help with Python, Java, C#, etc.  Must we host them all?  I don't 
>think so.  We're not in the business of competing with them.

I think one thing folks are asking for is an [EMAIL PROTECTED],
one where idle questions and chitchat about cool solutions and code for
our servers and sites would be shared.

But I agree with Justin, beyond this purpose, I just don't see the need to
replace the vital external lists that already exist in the java/perl/php/python
worlds, etc.

Bill



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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:22 PM -0400 Henri Yandell 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you have the same feelings for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes and no.  Yes, in the sense that I do wish the S/N ratio on members@ 
were better (it has gotten better as of late).  But, it also exists as a 
communication channel for members.  So, it's required such that 
conversations with the membership can occur electronically and privately.

It seems to me that members@ is akin to a community-dev list, while
community@ is akin to a community-users list. Any reason to keep members@
should exist for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
community@ has no foundational requirement for its presence.  It's also 
optional - lots of people ostensibly in our community unsubscribed or never 
subscribed because of the poor S/N ratio.  members@ isn't optional in that 
sense...

list. Go read groklaw. However, discussions on whether a python community
should exist seem to be perfectly designed for the community list (unless
they cross-post to all python interested mailing lists), as it pertains
to the future of how Apache balances itself.
Language-oriented TLPs have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be poor 
overseers of code.  The 'balancing of the ASF' brings back horrors of the 
reorg@ list which was another of those misguided lists...  -- justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:10 PM -0600 "Adam R. B. Jack" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Why do you keep assuming it is for chit chat? If it were [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and it was clear (community imposed/whatever) to be about Java @ ASF,
wouldn't that make sense? Aren't there issues (i.e. supporting JDK1.5,
not supporting JDK 1.2, that are good cross-project topics?) I'm not
suggesting ASF host forums, but a list to discuss language
issues/tips-tricks and help w/ fixes/changes, whatever.
I don't see why the ASF should be involved.  There are lots of other 
suitable forums for help with Python, Java, C#, etc.  Must we host them 
all?  I don't think so.  We're not in the business of competing with them.

I guess it's that I don't follow the argument that topics not specifically 
tied to the ASF should be given a home within the ASF.  -- justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Henri Yandell]

Do you have the same feelings for [EMAIL PROTECTED]

It seems to me that members@ is akin to a community-dev list, while
community@ is akin to a community-users list. Any reason to keep members@
should exist for [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I agree that MS Patent stuff is boring and unnecessary on a community
list. Go read groklaw. However, discussions on whether a python community
should exist seem to be perfectly designed for the community list (unless
they cross-post to all python interested mailing lists), as it pertains
to the future of how Apache balances itself.

ie) a wide-base of projects with various vertical technology communities.

Hen

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> --On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:54 PM -0600 "Adam R. B. Jack"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > 1) I might've missed a better place to post, I don't think so. I thought
> > about it for a while, and this was the best I came up with. So if you know
> > of one, then maybe I'm simply clueless, not lazy. Otherwise, here it is.
>
> My take is, "right idea, wrong place."  Not your fault.  I might even
> subscribe to such a list.  But, I fail to see what is ASF-specific about a
> python-talk list?  It's not, and hence shouldn't be hosted by the ASF.
>
> > 3) The ASF mantra of "it's the community not the technology" really
> > dictates a community@ list. I'm sorry if you feel it is a waste, I don't.
>
> That's inaccurate.  A better phrase, "It's the community [around the
> technology] not the technology."  community@ serves no place as it has
> nothing to do with anything that the ASF does or will ever do.
>
> > 4) "personal soapbox medium" -- GAK! Why would anybody out of diapers
> > waste breath on soapboxing? Come on, give the community some credit...
>
> I don't see why the ASF should care about potential MS patent attacks.
> That has no place on an ASF-sponsored list.  From my perspective,
> community@ is and persists to be a giant waste of time.
>
> (If you are on or know of FoRK, that's a list that laps up pointless
> conversations like the one re: patents.)
>
> > I'm just floating this idea. If you and/or others want to kill it, so be
> > it. If it go nowhere 'cos of lack of support of the ASF powers that be,
> > so be it. Python (for better or worse) is becoming part of ASF, but it is
> > less well understood/supported than Java. I was just hoping for a bit of
> > help getting some things going...
>
> Again, a list is fine.  I'd just prefer to find someone else to host it:
> the ASF isn't the end-all-be-all to all of your hosting needs.  And,
> obviously, feel free to invite all of the ASF folks to that list.  -- justin
>
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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Adam R. B. Jack]

> I don't see why the ASF *has* to support water-cooler conversations.  It
> just doesn't coincide with our mission.

Why do you keep assuming it is for chit chat? If it were [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
it was clear (community imposed/whatever) to be about Java @ ASF, wouldn't
that make sense? Aren't there issues (i.e. supporting JDK1.5, not supporting
JDK 1.2, that are good cross-project topics?) I'm not suggesting ASF host
forums, but a list to discuss language issues/tips-tricks and help w/
fixes/changes, whatever.

Sure, only a few folks responded, but that is all the more reason for allow
them to communicate with each other. Otherwise ASF projects that need Python
skills/experience are starved of a valuable (possibly amenable) source -- 
i.e. other ASFers.

I think we need some "AOI" -- aspect oriented infrastructure. ;-) This is a
project "cross cutting concern". No one project needs it (nor could support
it) standalone, but a bunch could benefit from it...

I know infra@ are overloaded, I wish I could help with that (but believe
that is out of my control). That said, in this day and age mailing lists
ought not be so heavyweight; I definitely agree with Brian there.

Hmm ... perhaps create a 'community PMC' that deals w/ oversight of
community related lists, and so forth. Make community communications a
project if that helps it fit into ASF...

regards,

Adam


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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:54 PM -0600 "Adam R. B. Jack" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

1) I might've missed a better place to post, I don't think so. I thought
about it for a while, and this was the best I came up with. So if you know
of one, then maybe I'm simply clueless, not lazy. Otherwise, here it is.
My take is, "right idea, wrong place."  Not your fault.  I might even 
subscribe to such a list.  But, I fail to see what is ASF-specific about a 
python-talk list?  It's not, and hence shouldn't be hosted by the ASF.

3) The ASF mantra of "it's the community not the technology" really
dictates a community@ list. I'm sorry if you feel it is a waste, I don't.
That's inaccurate.  A better phrase, "It's the community [around the 
technology] not the technology."  community@ serves no place as it has 
nothing to do with anything that the ASF does or will ever do.

4) "personal soapbox medium" -- GAK! Why would anybody out of diapers
waste breath on soapboxing? Come on, give the community some credit...
I don't see why the ASF should care about potential MS patent attacks. 
That has no place on an ASF-sponsored list.  From my perspective, 
community@ is and persists to be a giant waste of time.

(If you are on or know of FoRK, that's a list that laps up pointless 
conversations like the one re: patents.)

I'm just floating this idea. If you and/or others want to kill it, so be
it. If it go nowhere 'cos of lack of support of the ASF powers that be,
so be it. Python (for better or worse) is becoming part of ASF, but it is
less well understood/supported than Java. I was just hoping for a bit of
help getting some things going...
Again, a list is fine.  I'd just prefer to find someone else to host it: 
the ASF isn't the end-all-be-all to all of your hosting needs.  And, 
obviously, feel free to invite all of the ASF folks to that list.  -- justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:01 PM -0400 Stefano Mazzocchi 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I completely disagree with this view.
I don't see why the ASF *has* to support water-cooler conversations.  It 
just doesn't coincide with our mission.  Other people and sites can run 
them individually outside of the ASF - I've no problem with that *at all*.

IMHO, the ASF infrastructure should be reserved for, well, ASF projects. 
Not whatever three people feel like talking about at any given moment. 
It's just not our place to support the whims of a few without the necessary 
oversight.

I'm also peeved by the response of 'create a new mailing list' to almost 
any problem.  It's terribly uncreative and places a *lot* of burden on 
those who are stuck running the infrastructure.

And, no this isn't directed at any one individual.  It's just indicative of 
the attitude of folks that shouldn't be perpetuated further.  -- justin

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Re: Inexpensive Lists

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:20 PM -0400 Brian McCallister 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to discuss a topic via email, and think
a mailing list would help, there should be a mechanism to simply have it
created, bang. Just my 2 cents =)

Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme 
caution. Lists without the necessary oversight might expose the ASF to 
unwanted liability.  The ASF isn't a personal soapbox medium: it's meant 
to facilitate collaborative software projects.

For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that 
adds little value: almost every topic here has a more appropriate list 
elsewhere in the ASF (or, ideally, outside of the ASF).  But, people 
seem to use this list as a dumping ground and are often too lazy to 
think about what the 'proper' list is - instead they just post to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Bitter?  Nah.  ;-)  -- justin
I completely disagree with this view.
--
Stefano.


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Adam R. B. Jack]

From: "Justin Erenkrantz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)


> --On Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:20 PM -0400 Brian McCallister
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to discuss a topic via email, and think
> > a mailing list would help, there should be a mechanism to simply have it
> > created, bang. Just my 2 cents =)
>
> Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme
caution.
> Lists without the necessary oversight might expose the ASF to unwanted
> liability.  The ASF isn't a personal soapbox medium: it's meant to
> facilitate collaborative software projects.
>
> For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that
adds
> little value: almost every topic here has a more appropriate list
elsewhere
> in the ASF (or, ideally, outside of the ASF).  But, people seem to use
this
> list as a dumping ground and are often too lazy to think about what the
> 'proper' list is - instead they just post to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Bitter?  Nah.  ;-)  -- justin

Kinda hard for me not to take a few levels of exception to this posting.
But, I don't take exception (I doubt I am the only target nor cause of your
bitterness ;-) I can see your points, I'll try to answer:

1) I might've missed a better place to post, I don't think so. I thought
about it for a while, and this was the best I came up with. So if you know
of one, then maybe I'm simply clueless, not lazy. Otherwise, here it is.

2) I think this list served the purpose for a mail such as this. I don't
think it was a waste of time. I'm looking for help with my project of
interest (Gump) from other folks working in Python (the current language of
that project) and am willing to help other Python folks in return. I think
there is value in that.

3) The ASF mantra of "it's the community not the technology" really dictates
a community@ list. I'm sorry if you feel it is a waste, I don't.

4) "personal soapbox medium" -- GAK! Why would anybody out of diapers waste
breath on soapboxing? Come on, give the community some credit...

The 'lack of PMC oversight/liability' -- I'll leave that to others with more
ASF/OSS experience than I.

I'm just floating this idea. If you and/or others want to kill it, so be it.
If it go nowhere 'cos of lack of support of the ASF powers that be, so be
it. Python (for better or worse) is becoming part of ASF, but it is less
well understood/supported than Java. I was just hoping for a bit of help
getting some things going...

regards,

Adam


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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Justin Erenkrantz]

--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:20 PM -0400 Brian McCallister 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to discuss a topic via email, and think
a mailing list would help, there should be a mechanism to simply have it
created, bang. Just my 2 cents =)
Mailing lists without PMC oversight should be treated with extreme caution. 
Lists without the necessary oversight might expose the ASF to unwanted 
liability.  The ASF isn't a personal soapbox medium: it's meant to 
facilitate collaborative software projects.

For example, this list (community@) is a *horrible* waste of time that adds 
little value: almost every topic here has a more appropriate list elsewhere 
in the ASF (or, ideally, outside of the ASF).  But, people seem to use this 
list as a dumping ground and are often too lazy to think about what the 
'proper' list is - instead they just post to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Bitter?  Nah.  ;-)  -- justin
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Re: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Brian McCallister]

Happily! Let me know what is done now, and I'll see if I can make it 
more easily automated.

-Brian
On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:12 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
the list was made the moment it was needed. It
*could* be created the moment it was needed.
It would be nice if we had such a mechanism.  At the moment, list 
creation
is a long list of steps that involves 3 servers, each with different 
access
rights.

I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to discuss a topic via email, and
think a mailing list would help, there should be a mechanism to
simply have it created, bang. Just my 2 cents =)
If anyone feels like putting in some effort to provide the tools, 
that'd be
great.  I can provide lists of commands for different kinds of lists
(public, private, commits) and related activities (moving/renaming, 
creating
archives from non-archived list, etc.).  There is also
http://anzu.tigris.org from which to work.

--- Noel
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RE: Inexpensive Lists (was: Re: Python anybody?)

[Noel J. Bergman]

> the list was made the moment it was needed. It
> *could* be created the moment it was needed.

It would be nice if we had such a mechanism.  At the moment, list creation
is a long list of steps that involves 3 servers, each with different access
rights.

> I suspect that if 3 ASF'ers want to discuss a topic via email, and
> think a mailing list would help, there should be a mechanism to
> simply have it created, bang. Just my 2 cents =)

If anyone feels like putting in some effort to provide the tools, that'd be
great.  I can provide lists of commands for different kinds of lists
(public, private, commits) and related activities (moving/renaming, creating
archives from non-archived list, etc.).  There is also
http://anzu.tigris.org from which to work.

--- Noel


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