[CGUYS] Out of sync
Is it just me, or are just about all digital TV broadcasts exhibiting poor sync between their audio and their video? Parallel analog broadcasts do not exhibit this problem for the most part. We are all being forced to switch to digital reception which includes spending money. Do we need to be forced to put up with such an annoyance as well? I have fired off some e-mails to some area broadcasters about this and will await their responses, if they do, in fact, respond. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
It's not just you. It's a big problem today. I complain about it all the time, as do broadcast engineers. Not at all sure why all the new video formats separate audio from video. On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Steve Rigby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is it just me, or are just about all digital TV broadcasts exhibiting poor > sync between their audio and their video? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
>From what I've seen, it exists just about everywhere, due to the fact that no matter what the broadcast medium, somewhere along the way it has gone through some sort of digital processing. This evening's network news broadcast's had major lip synch problem in several of their packages and live shots, even though I was watching it on an analog signal. It's a sign of the times and don't expect it to go away anytime soon, especially as long as there is a mix of analog/digital conversions along the way. It's all fixable, but someone has to care enough and be aware enough to do something about it. Firing off emails is a good start and I'll be interested to hear of any responses you get. Let us know. Just my $.02 Richard P. Steve Rigbywrote: > Is it just me, or are just about all digital TV broadcasts exhibiting poor > sync between their audio and their video? Parallel analog broadcasts do not > exhibit this problem for the most part. We are all being forced to switch > to digital reception which includes spending money. Do we need to be forced > to put up with such an annoyance as well? > > I have fired off some e-mails to some area broadcasters about this and will > await their responses, if they do, in fact, respond. > > Steve > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
>Is it just me, or are just about all digital TV broadcasts >exhibiting poor sync between their audio and their video? Could be just your TV that is out. I have fixed this by turning the TV off & on. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 3, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Tony B wrote: It's not just you. It's a big problem today. I complain about it all the time, as do broadcast engineers. Not at all sure why all the new video formats separate audio from video. Experience with this has proven to me that the problem is much worse with the digital broadcasts as opposed to the parallel analog broadcasts. In fact, when the same digital broadcast is being transmitted on more than one channel operated by the same station, one channel may be more out of sync than another, Ditto for network broadcasts that may be able to be received from more than one affiliate. One can be more out of sync than the other. It is just a shame that enjoyment of the product has to be sacrificed as we are all being forced to switch to digital. It almost seems to be an abrogation of responsibility on the part of broadcasters. Of course, there is no law that says that audio and video have to be in sync, so I guess broadcasters really have no need to care about the problem at all. I do not understand why either the video or audio cannot be slewed at the time of transmission in order to restore sync as the signal is transmitted at the tower. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 3, 2008, at 10:45 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Could be just your TV that is out. I have fixed this by turning the TV off & on. Nope. Not at all in my case. In fact, one can experience time shifts in the amount of delay between audio and video as a program progresses. It may be more or less out of sync at varying points in the program. A real quality control issue, yet digital TV is touted a being a giant leap forward in terms of quality. Not altogether true, obviously. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
>Nope. Not at all in my case. In fact, one can experience time >shifts in the amount of delay between audio and video as a program >progresses. It may be more or less out of sync at varying points >in the program. That is true, but that does not address my question. Changing channels or restarting the set can often bring things back into sync. Remember that the least expensive box in the chain is the one you own. >A real quality control issue, yet digital TV is touted >a being a giant leap forward in terms of quality. Not altogether >true, obviously. That spoken like a tech noob. Any time computers get involved in a process the potential for mayhem increases. With digital TV the audio and video streams remain separate throughout so inattention at any point can get them out of sync. Anyone in the chain, including you, can mess it up. Maybe your local station cut corners on their new equipment? Maybe you should have bought a more expensive digital TV? It is hard to say. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
In the broadcast world, audio/video sync can vary depending upon how much digital video action is taking place. The more "movement" in the video (action scenes), the longer it takes to process, compared to the audio stream. The sync difference is measurable in a piece as short as one minute long. For more details, here is a link from a recent Broadcast Engineering describing how difficult it is to try and correct: http://broadcastengineering.com/test_measurement/maintaining-lip-sync/ The problem can be caused/corrected by equipment, source material, editors, and uplink/downlink operators. A transmission can have more than a dozen hops in it, with each hop introducing its own set of errors. However, there is no guaranteed solution out there yet. Digital TV is a perfect picture which will show up all of it's faults perfectly. :) Richard P. Steve Rigby wrote: > In fact, one can experience time shifts in > the amount of delay between audio and video as a program progresses. It may > be more or less out of sync at varying points in the program. A real > quality control issue, yet digital TV is touted a being a giant leap forward > in terms of quality. Not altogether true, obviously. > > Steve > > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
It's not surprising that quality control issues are showing up now, and that all the bugs haven't been worked out yet. But the conversion to digital wasn't really in the interest of consumers. Switching to digital frees up the very valuable frequencies that analog TV now uses. Compared to the upcoming availablity of this valuable wavelength real estate, consumers' synchronization problems are comparatively unimportant to the industry as a whole. You don't like digital? That's too bad. If you want over-the-air TV, you don't have a choice. In the mean time, the newly available frequencies will be worth millions. --Constance Warner * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 4, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: That is true, but that does not address my question. Changing channels or restarting the set can often bring things back into sync. Remember that the least expensive box in the chain is the one you own. Your suggested solutions have never worked to fix any of the sync situations I have encountered wherein I attempted such potential corrective actions. Additionally, while the least expensive box in the chain is the one I own, the greatest preponderance of "boxes" in the chain are not mine, but belong to the broadcasters. Therefore, the highest potential for such issues rests with them, not with the end user. That spoken like a tech noob. Any time computers get involved in a process the potential for mayhem increases. With digital TV the audio and video streams remain separate throughout so inattention at any point can get them out of sync. Anyone in the chain, including you, can mess it up. Maybe your local station cut corners on their new equipment? Maybe you should have bought a more expensive digital TV? It is hard to say. The "tech noob," that being me as described by yourself, sez that WETA essentially agrees with my assessment. Their return e-mail to me acknowledges that digital transmission of signals in the production and distribution of programs has made audio/video synchronization problems worse than they ever were previously. WETA hopes that as the transition to digital TV progresses, the problems can be mostly eliminated. They go on to say that problems on the reception end can also lead to such difficulties. However, in my home, I have three digital TV receivers, all of differing brands and types. I have, on numerous occasions, verified these sync problems by tuning all three receivers to the exact same channel, and in every instance when I have done this form of test, all three receivers exhibited precisely the same amount and type of out-of-sync symptoms. Therefore, I can say with a very high degree of assuredness that the problem is almost certainly not the equipment on my end. The "noob" has spoken. Back to you. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Richard P. wrote: The problem can be caused/corrected by equipment, source material, editors, and uplink/downlink operators. A transmission can have more than a dozen hops in it, with each hop introducing its own set of errors. However, there is no guaranteed solution out there yet. It appears as though the TV industry was not actually ready for "prime time" when the decision was made to force this change to digital. Perhaps the fault is with the broadcasters themselves or with the FCC, or with both. The only thing that will make the broadcasters actually worry about this problem would be if viewers begin turning off their televisions in response. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
One of the ways the audio and the video can get out of sync is because the video is fed directly to the screen while the audio is routed through a home theater receiver (or the equivalent), for example. Better HTR's may have audio delay circuitry the user can invoke to try re-sync the two. I have not had personal experience with noticeable delays in my setup. Note also that the d**n cable boxes and the cablecos themselves are not immune from blame on these matters either. YMMV > Subject: Re: Out of sync > > On Sep 3, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Tony B wrote: > > > It's not just you. It's a big problem today. I complain about it all > > the time, as do broadcast engineers. Not at all sure why all the new > > video formats separate audio from video. > > Experience with this has proven to me that the problem is much > worse with the digital broadcasts as opposed to the parallel analog > broadcasts. In fact, when the same digital broadcast is being > transmitted on more than one channel operated by the same station, > one channel may be more out of sync than another, Ditto for network > broadcasts that may be able to be received from more than one > affiliate. One can be more out of sync than the other. > > It is just a shame that enjoyment of the product has to be > sacrificed as we are all being forced to switch to digital. It > almost seems to be an abrogation of responsibility on the part of > broadcasters. Of course, there is no law that says that audio and > video have to be in sync, so I guess broadcasters really have no need > to care about the problem at all. > > I do not understand why either the video or audio cannot be slewed > at the time of transmission in order to restore sync as the signal is > transmitted at the tower. > > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
I would bet that viewership will drop off after the transition due to the fact that many houses that are able to receive usable VHF analog transmissions right now will no longer be able to receive a reliable UHF digital signal. Richard P. > > >> The problem can be caused/corrected by equipment, source material, >> editors, and uplink/downlink operators. A transmission can have more >> than a dozen hops in it, with each hop introducing its own set of >> errors. However, there is no guaranteed solution out there yet. > > It appears as though the TV industry was not actually ready for "prime > time" when the decision was made to force this change to digital. Perhaps > the fault is with the broadcasters themselves or with the FCC, or with both. > > The only thing that will make the broadcasters actually worry about this > problem would be if viewers begin turning off their televisions in response. > > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
We believe you! But be aware that reports are surfacing in the wild that with different TVs, everything else being the same, one will show bad audio sync and one won't. Presumably this is the result of a bad component (or firm/software), and not an inherent design flaw with that entire model line. Anyway, as someone else already pointed out I think, you need to power cycle everything in your chain, not just the TV. Even if it likely won't do any good. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Steve Rigby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > symptoms. Therefore, I can say with a very high degree of assuredness that > the problem is almost certainly not the equipment on my end. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 4, 2008, at 2:48 PM, Tony B wrote: Anyway, as someone else already pointed out I think, you need to power cycle everything in your chain, not just the TV. Even if it likely won't do any good. Perhaps so, but such maneuvers should not be required in our enlightened times and with such mundane devices. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 4, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Richard P. wrote: I would bet that viewership will drop off after the transition due to the fact that many houses that are able to receive usable VHF analog transmissions right now will no longer be able to receive a reliable UHF digital signal. As for my particular situation, current digital reception of even the more remote stations surpasses that of the parallel analog. That being said, there can be brief periods of signal dropout when viewing the digital signal whereas the analog signal will still be viewable, albeit very snowy and/or faint. When coming through with sufficient signal strength to enable the ability to be viewed, my digital signal quality easily surpasses that of the parallel analog. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
FYI, there's a simple piece of commercial equipment in use today to adjust for lip sync errors. All it requires is someone to input the signal into it, adjust it, and then monitor the output. Master control at the final broadcast point could do this if directed to. That would take care the simple stuff like a live program. The networks do this all the time when their anchors are on remotes. It just takes someone to make that decision to do it and an operator that cares enough to monitor it. Richard P. Steve wrote: > > > Experience with this has proven to me that the problem is much worse with > the digital broadcasts as opposed to the parallel analog broadcasts. In > fact, when the same digital broadcast is being transmitted on more than one > channel operated by the same station, one channel may be more out of sync > than another, Ditto for network broadcasts that may be able to be received > from more than one affiliate. One can be more out of sync than the other. > > It is just a shame that enjoyment of the product has to be sacrificed as we > are all being forced to switch to digital. It almost seems to be an > abrogation of responsibility on the part of broadcasters. Of course, there > is no law that says that audio and video have to be in sync, so I guess > broadcasters really have no need to care about the problem at all. > > I do not understand why either the video or audio cannot be slewed at the > time of transmission in order to restore sync as the signal is transmitted > at the tower. > > Steve > > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
On Sep 4, 2008, at 5:12 PM, Richard P. wrote: FYI, there's a simple piece of commercial equipment in use today to adjust for lip sync errors. All it requires is someone to input the signal into it, adjust it, and then monitor the output. Master control at the final broadcast point could do this if directed to. That would take care the simple stuff like a live program. The networks do this all the time when their anchors are on remotes. It just takes someone to make that decision to do it and an operator that cares enough to monitor it. I am sure you are correct. Heck, even my component DVD player has a means of correcting for audio sync in some instances. Surely these mega-million dollar digital TV transmission facilities can do the same thing. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
Yes, and it can be had for less than $8,000. Peanuts in the broadcast budget. See product notes below signature. Most stations already have this but use it for other things. Richard P. Leitch Technology has introduced the X75 HD, a versatile up-, down- and cross converter and HD frame synchronizer. The X75 HD features extensive video and audio processing capabilities in a 1RU package. Video processing features include level/color control; optional 3-D adaptive color decoding with time base correction; optional noise reduction; frame synchronization; and up- and down-conversion with aspect ratio conversion for hybrid standard - and HD facilities. The X75 HD's 16 channels of internal audio processing include timing with video for lip sync corrections; level control; analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog conversion; and embedding and de-embedding for SDI and HD-SDI serial digital signals for interfacing any audio signal in a professional environment. > >> FYI, there's a simple piece of commercial equipment in use today to >> adjust for lip sync errors. All it requires is someone to input the >> signal into it, adjust it, and then monitor the output. Master control >> at the final broadcast point could do this if directed to. That would >> take care the simple stuff like a live program. The networks do this >> all the time when their anchors are on remotes. It just takes someone >> to make that decision to do it and an operator that cares enough to >> monitor it. > > I am sure you are correct. Heck, even my component DVD player has a means > of correcting for audio sync in some instances. Surely these mega-million > dollar digital TV transmission facilities can do the same thing. > > Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
>Switching to digital frees up the very valuable frequencies that analog >TV now uses. They needed the money to finance foreign wars. I wonder if there will be any money leftover. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
is this an automated device, or one that must be adjusted by a human? i watched an event on tv last night that was off sync by close to a full second. At 06:51 PM 9/4/2008, you wrote: >Yes, and it can be had for less than $8,000. Peanuts in the broadcast >budget. See product notes below signature. Most stations already have >this but use it for other things. > >Richard P. > >Leitch Technology has introduced the X75 HD, a versatile up-, down- >and cross converter and HD frame synchronizer. > >The X75 HD features extensive video and audio processing capabilities >in a 1RU package. > >Video processing features include level/color control; optional 3-D >adaptive color decoding with time base correction; optional noise >reduction; frame synchronization; and up- and down-conversion with >aspect ratio conversion for hybrid standard - and HD facilities. > >The X75 HD's 16 channels of internal audio processing include timing >with video for lip sync corrections; level control; analog-to-digital >and digital-to-analog conversion; and embedding and de-embedding for >SDI and HD-SDI serial digital signals for interfacing any audio signal >in a professional environment. > > >> >>> FYI, there's a simple piece of commercial equipment in use today to >>> adjust for lip sync errors. All it requires is someone to input the >>> signal into it, adjust it, and then monitor the output. Master control >>> at the final broadcast point could do this if directed to. That would >>> take care the simple stuff like a live program. The networks do this >>> all the time when their anchors are on remotes. It just takes someone >>> to make that decision to do it and an operator that cares enough to >>> monitor it. >> >> I am sure you are correct. Heck, even my component DVD player has a means >> of correcting for audio sync in some instances. Surely these mega-million >> dollar digital TV transmission facilities can do the same thing. >> >> Steve > > >* >** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** >** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** >* * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Out of sync
This is adjusted by a human so it is subject to human error. Adjusting it is as simple as turning a knob. Predictive correction equipment is also made but only works reliably on talking heads. Richard P. > is this an automated device, or one that must be adjusted by a human? > > i watched an event on tv last night that was off sync by close to a full > second. > > At 06:51 PM 9/4/2008, you wrote: >>Yes, and it can be had for less than $8,000. Peanuts in the broadcast >>budget. See product notes below signature. Most stations already have >>this but use it for other things. >> >> >>Leitch Technology has introduced the X75 HD, a versatile up-, down- >>and cross converter and HD frame synchronizer. >> >>The X75 HD features extensive video and audio processing capabilities >>in a 1RU package. >> >>Video processing features include level/color control; optional 3-D >>adaptive color decoding with time base correction; optional noise >>reduction; frame synchronization; and up- and down-conversion with >>aspect ratio conversion for hybrid standard - and HD facilities. >> >>The X75 HD's 16 channels of internal audio processing include timing >>with video for lip sync corrections; level control; analog-to-digital >>and digital-to-analog conversion; and embedding and de-embedding for >>SDI and HD-SDI serial digital signals for interfacing any audio signal >>in a professional environment. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
