Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
William H Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there any thought to having ONLY first-time users attempt to install and use basic L-M setup? Maybe the kiosks of Paris? sorry? [...] I have been trying to spread the word about Linux and Linux-Mandrake in paticular for years but have found, unfortuantely fairly often, even highly intelligent people, some with advanced education levels and professionals in the use of technology , CANNOT GET AN INSTALL OF LINUX UP AND RUNNING AND THEN USE IT . Basically, that's false. Installation of Linux-Mandrake is now as simple as installation of Ms Windows. Maybe what is still lacking is spreaded pre-installed computers in shops. Even after several years of Linux use I still frequently find myself "lost in limbo". Maybe too much Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin music in the 70s :) It is moving fast. Cooker is sometimes not real simple to install, that's true. We can't do non-regression in that world. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Jason Straight wrote: Oh - is a beta considered released? Yeah, by default it looks like windows I guess, but if you look at my windowmaker desktop you wouldn't call it windows looking. Mandrake gives windows look and feel to people who need it to make use of linux, but linux (and a lot of it) is still there for those who know what they want and how to get it. I hear people complain all the time about bloat in Mandrake that it's becoming windows - what a load of crap. It all comes down to the same as any other distro - it's all in how you choose to install it. I can have nearly the same system with Mandrake as any slackware or debian, or redhat, or turbolinux etc... It's in how I set it up. Powerusers normally don't stick with default configuration no matter what distro they use, we end up reconfiguring everything the way we want it in the end. People looking for ease of use will appreciate what Mandrakes done with install and KDE2, while people looking for old fashion linux power know how to get it out of Mandrake anyway. Buy the way it's not KDE2 its KDE 1.99. The official release of KDE2 isn't until October 16th 2000 mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] root wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. '69 396 CI Chevelles were a LOT faster ;) Folks, I believe y'all under estimate the audience. I know the feelin. I just mailed off my 7.1 CD's this mornin to an Internet friend (I know him from a private NASCAR mailing list). A little about my own situation tho. I've been runnin Linux for a little over 3 years. I'm still newbie status tho. I've had a serious brain disease (cp-MS) for almost 10 years that makes it very difficult to concentrate and/or retain information. Linux is my therapy, ie, 'use it or loose it'. My point is, there's a million reasons besides wanting a non-Billy desktop, for new users to be drawn to Linux. For me, it not functionality that's utmost, I like the challenge. There's some rebel in me also. -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Gee man...haven't you noticed that 7.2beta3 looks and acts and sounds more like wintendo more and more everyday! except when Microsoft releases an upgrade it works. mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- The road to Microsoft is paved with [others] good intentions. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Michael Powell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum Warren Doney wrote: Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Warren Doney? Electrons don't DIE or MOVE! AFAIK, they do under the concept of "humor". 8) Hoyt your humor must exsist in the updated RPMS! very few pass the C++ optimization and standard code requiremnets. mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
And it's not 1.89 a gallon either it's 189.9 cents a gallon still we call it $1.89 ;) On Sun, 08 Oct 2000, you wrote: Jason Straight wrote: Oh - is a beta considered released? Yeah, by default it looks like windows I guess, but if you look at my windowmaker desktop you wouldn't call it windows looking. Mandrake gives windows look and feel to people who need it to make use of linux, but linux (and a lot of it) is still there for those who know what they want and how to get it. I hear people complain all the time about bloat in Mandrake that it's becoming windows - what a load of crap. It all comes down to the same as any other distro - it's all in how you choose to install it. I can have nearly the same system with Mandrake as any slackware or debian, or redhat, or turbolinux etc... It's in how I set it up. Powerusers normally don't stick with default configuration no matter what distro they use, we end up reconfiguring everything the way we want it in the end. People looking for ease of use will appreciate what Mandrakes done with install and KDE2, while people looking for old fashion linux power know how to get it out of Mandrake anyway. Buy the way it's not KDE2 its KDE 1.99. The official release of KDE2 isn't until October 16th 2000 mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] root wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. '69 396 CI Chevelles were a LOT faster ;) Folks, I believe y'all under estimate the audience. I know the feelin. I just mailed off my 7.1 CD's this mornin to an Internet friend (I know him from a private NASCAR mailing list). A little about my own situation tho. I've been runnin Linux for a little over 3 years. I'm still newbie status tho. I've had a serious brain disease (cp-MS) for almost 10 years that makes it very difficult to concentrate and/or retain information. Linux is my therapy, ie, 'use it or loose it'. My point is, there's a million reasons besides wanting a non-Billy desktop, for new users to be drawn to Linux. For me, it not functionality that's utmost, I like the challenge. There's some rebel in me also. -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Gee man...haven't you noticed that 7.2beta3 looks and acts and sounds more like wintendo more and more everyday! except when Microsoft releases an upgrade it works. mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- The road to Microsoft is paved with [others] good intentions. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Mikedr - Well, its the KDE2 codebase... and it does things via the KDE2 method... Jason Straight wrote: And it's not 1.89 a gallon either it's 189.9 cents a gallon still we call it $1.89 ;) On Sun, 08 Oct 2000, you wrote: Jason Straight wrote: Oh - is a beta considered released? Yeah, by default it looks like windows I guess, but if you look at my windowmaker desktop you wouldn't call it windows looking. Mandrake gives windows look and feel to people who need it to make use of linux, but linux (and a lot of it) is still there for those who know what they want and how to get it. I hear people complain all the time about bloat in Mandrake that it's becoming windows - what a load of crap. It all comes down to the same as any other distro - it's all in how you choose to install it. I can have nearly the same system with Mandrake as any slackware or debian, or redhat, or turbolinux etc... It's in how I set it up. Powerusers normally don't stick with default configuration no matter what distro they use, we end up reconfiguring everything the way we want it in the end. People looking for ease of use will appreciate what Mandrakes done with install and KDE2, while people looking for old fashion linux power know how to get it out of Mandrake anyway. Buy the way it's not KDE2 its KDE 1.99. The official release of KDE2 isn't until October 16th 2000 mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - Antony Suter ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "Examiner" openpgp:71ADFC87 - "Do ye know where the Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronke-Slayin' Vorpal - Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum is?"
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Warren Doney? This is a good idea, things that seem simple to us can baffle beginners. I recall, for instance, when asked to "specify the mount point of the root partition" I repeatedly tried "root" instead of "/" :o) Isn't that what "auto allocate" is for? Yes, but 6.1 didn't have it ~1yr ago - that was just a general example. [] Apart from hardware support and partitioning, what newbie-unfriendliness is there? The point of asking people who have never tried installing it is to find out if there's something that has been missed -WBD
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 03:08:17PM -0700, Graham Percival wrote: If somebody really wants to get away from MS, it's possible. They might have to spend a week learning that you only need to single-click in KDE instead of double-click, but anybody who seriously tries can do it. Or to find the switch that turns of this annoying behaviour. Besides even in Windows 98 you can just do a single click. Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.dp.ath.cx Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Tom Brinkman wrote: Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. '69 396 CI Chevelles were a LOT faster ;) Folks, I believe y'all under estimate the audience. I know the feelin. I just mailed off my 7.1 CD's this mornin to an Internet friend (I know him from a private NASCAR mailing list). A little about my own situation tho. I've been runnin Linux for a little over 3 years. I'm still newbie status tho. I've had a serious brain disease (cp-MS) for almost 10 years that makes it very difficult to concentrate and/or retain information. Linux is my therapy, ie, 'use it or loose it'. My point is, there's a million reasons besides wanting a non-Billy desktop, for new users to be drawn to Linux. For me, it not functionality that's utmost, I like the challenge. There's some rebel in me also. -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Gee man...haven't you noticed that 7.2beta3 looks and acts and sounds more like wintendo more and more everyday! except when Microsoft releases an upgrade it works. mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Warren Doney wrote: Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Warren Doney? This is a good idea, things that seem simple to us can baffle beginners. I recall, for instance, when asked to "specify the mount point of the root partition" I repeatedly tried "root" instead of "/" :o) Isn't that what "auto allocate" is for? Yes, but 6.1 didn't have it ~1yr ago - that was just a general example. [] Apart from hardware support and partitioning, what newbie-unfriendliness is there? The point of asking people who have never tried installing it is to find out if there's something that has been missed -WBD Electrons don't DIE or MOVE!
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Alexander Skwar wrote: On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 03:08:17PM -0700, Graham Percival wrote: If somebody really wants to get away from MS, it's possible. They might have to spend a week learning that you only need to single-click in KDE instead of double-click, but anybody who seriously tries can do it. Or to find the switch that turns of this annoying behaviour. Besides even in Windows 98 you can just do a single click. Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.dp.ath.cx Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191 And your point? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Oh - is a beta considered released? Yeah, by default it looks like windows I guess, but if you look at my windowmaker desktop you wouldn't call it windows looking. Mandrake gives windows look and feel to people who need it to make use of linux, but linux (and a lot of it) is still there for those who know what they want and how to get it. I hear people complain all the time about bloat in Mandrake that it's becoming windows - what a load of crap. It all comes down to the same as any other distro - it's all in how you choose to install it. I can have nearly the same system with Mandrake as any slackware or debian, or redhat, or turbolinux etc... It's in how I set it up. Powerusers normally don't stick with default configuration no matter what distro they use, we end up reconfiguring everything the way we want it in the end. People looking for ease of use will appreciate what Mandrakes done with install and KDE2, while people looking for old fashion linux power know how to get it out of Mandrake anyway. root wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. '69 396 CI Chevelles were a LOT faster ;) Folks, I believe y'all under estimate the audience. I know the feelin. I just mailed off my 7.1 CD's this mornin to an Internet friend (I know him from a private NASCAR mailing list). A little about my own situation tho. I've been runnin Linux for a little over 3 years. I'm still newbie status tho. I've had a serious brain disease (cp-MS) for almost 10 years that makes it very difficult to concentrate and/or retain information. Linux is my therapy, ie, 'use it or loose it'. My point is, there's a million reasons besides wanting a non-Billy desktop, for new users to be drawn to Linux. For me, it not functionality that's utmost, I like the challenge. There's some rebel in me also. -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Gee man...haven't you noticed that 7.2beta3 looks and acts and sounds more like wintendo more and more everyday! except when Microsoft releases an upgrade it works. mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- The road to Microsoft is paved with [others] good intentions. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
- Original Message - From: "Michael Powell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum Warren Doney wrote: Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Warren Doney? Electrons don't DIE or MOVE! AFAIK, they do under the concept of "humor". 8) Hoyt
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Jason Straight wrote: Just like the hot-rod isn't for the average driver linux shouldn't necesarilly be for the average computer user. If it works out that way through evolution fine, but I don't think we should push it and change focus from what brought linux where it's at now. Amiga died trying to be something other than what made it popular. Amiga "died" for several other reasons, mainly because it hasn't good administration under Commodore (remember Medhi Ali?), and the ability to put out tech hardware upgrades when needed and requested by the crowd (it passed a lot of time to have AGA chispet, and when they were available they were outdated, AAA+ never even had light) and many other flops of the architecture (remember CDTV and CD32?). Furthermore also who taken out the Amiga from the market was the CPU and GFX hardware: latest Amiga 4000 were with 68040 at 25Mhz, which more or less had the CPU power of the 486/33 [but the Amiga 4000 was far superior than a 486/33 compatible with Windoze 3.1] But when 486 DX2/DX3/DX4 and Pentium were available at lower price, it was hard to push new user to buy for more price an old hardware, although the OS was still superior. Many other "power" Amiga user (tons of 3D raytracers) passed to intel arch due to faster rendering time. A1200 was good sell, but not as A500 of "good old days". 68060 cards at 50Mhz were available as accelerated card by 3rd party, some years after the Commodore bakrupcy (too late) and were also difficult to obtain. Ditto for PPC card from Phase 5 later, Also the Motorola no longer developed the 680X0 architecture and that was partially the start of the end of the Amiga (Apple did the jump to PowerPC and it is still alive, although if it wasn't for the coloured iMAC [seems like what did the Swiss company Swatch], also Apple would have probably closed, 1 or 2 years ago, but that's another story...). Who taken the Amiga later (remember ESCOM), didn't had clear their minds too, and wasted a lot of time trying to deciding what to do exactly with the Amiga. Not much time later ESCOM (#2 PC vendor in Europe) bankrupcy too, and the Amiga passed to Gateway 2000 (1 another year to know who should take the Amiga Inc. from ESCOM [remember VISCORP story?]). Two years to decide to choose QNX as next microkernel and PPC as CPU. Then after decided and make the announce with QNX, they fired the heads of the Amiga Inc. (Jim Collas) and announced to switch to a Linux modified kernel as kernel for next Amiga architecture, based on Transmeta as main CPU, ATI for video card, etc. 1 other year of NOTHING (ah no, a new 680x0 OS release for old machine, thanks to HaagePartners), and Gateway 2000 sells what remained of the Amiga Inc. to some private buyers. Now the new Amiga group announced the SDK of what could become "the new Amiga OS" for RH, and signed the agreement with RedHat too. In the meanwhile waiting for a new Amiga, the world is changed... Bye. Giuseppe.
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
I know - I was hinting more along the lines of what started the majority of Amiga's money problems, besides Ali putting 9 bills in hit pocket every year while the company suffered. ;) On Sat, 07 Oct 2000, you wrote: Jason Straight wrote: Just like the hot-rod isn't for the average driver linux shouldn't necesarilly be for the average computer user. If it works out that way through evolution fine, but I don't think we should push it and change focus from what brought linux where it's at now. Amiga died trying to be something other than what made it popular. Amiga "died" for several other reasons, mainly because it hasn't good administration under Commodore (remember Medhi Ali?), and the ability to put out tech hardware upgrades when needed and requested by the crowd (it passed a lot of time to have AGA chispet, and when they were available they were outdated, AAA+ never even had light) and many other flops of the architecture (remember CDTV and CD32?). Furthermore also who taken out the Amiga from the market was the CPU and GFX hardware: latest Amiga 4000 were with 68040 at 25Mhz, which more or less had the CPU power of the 486/33 [but the Amiga 4000 was far superior than a 486/33 compatible with Windoze 3.1] But when 486 DX2/DX3/DX4 and Pentium were available at lower price, it was hard to push new user to buy for more price an old hardware, although the OS was still superior. Many other "power" Amiga user (tons of 3D raytracers) passed to intel arch due to faster rendering time. A1200 was good sell, but not as A500 of "good old days". 68060 cards at 50Mhz were available as accelerated card by 3rd party, some years after the Commodore bakrupcy (too late) and were also difficult to obtain. Ditto for PPC card from Phase 5 later, Also the Motorola no longer developed the 680X0 architecture and that was partially the start of the end of the Amiga (Apple did the jump to PowerPC and it is still alive, although if it wasn't for the coloured iMAC [seems like what did the Swiss company Swatch], also Apple would have probably closed, 1 or 2 years ago, but that's another story...). Who taken the Amiga later (remember ESCOM), didn't had clear their minds too, and wasted a lot of time trying to deciding what to do exactly with the Amiga. Not much time later ESCOM (#2 PC vendor in Europe) bankrupcy too, and the Amiga passed to Gateway 2000 (1 another year to know who should take the Amiga Inc. from ESCOM [remember VISCORP story?]). Two years to decide to choose QNX as next microkernel and PPC as CPU. Then after decided and make the announce with QNX, they fired the heads of the Amiga Inc. (Jim Collas) and announced to switch to a Linux modified kernel as kernel for next Amiga architecture, based on Transmeta as main CPU, ATI for video card, etc. 1 other year of NOTHING (ah no, a new 680x0 OS release for old machine, thanks to HaagePartners), and Gateway 2000 sells what remained of the Amiga Inc. to some private buyers. Now the new Amiga group announced the SDK of what could become "the new Amiga OS" for RH, and signed the agreement with RedHat too. In the meanwhile waiting for a new Amiga, the world is changed... Bye. Giuseppe.
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
root wrote: Gee man...haven't you noticed that 7.2beta3 looks and acts and sounds more like wintendo more and more everyday! except when Microsoft releases an upgrade it works. The difference is that Mandrake call 7.2 "beta", rather than "2000" or "millenium". And when MS release an upgrade it definitely does _not_ work. As someone responsible for a bunch of office computers - one Linux and three Windows - I've given up totally on upgrading any of the Windows machines. With Linux at least I know that if I upgrade and it screws up, I can usually figure a way round it*,and if I can't, I can always downgrade. Robin * e.g. by using icewm ;-)
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Warren Doney? This is a good idea, things that seem simple to us can baffle beginners. I recall, for instance, when asked to "specify the mount point of the root partition" I repeatedly tried "root" instead of "/" :o) Oh nostalgia - on my first Linux install (RH 5.2) I just hit keys until something happened. I'm a bit puzzled by all these cries for easier installs. OK, some hardware is not detected automatically (be it USB printers, ISA network cards, $400 mice, whatever). Better hardware detection is *always* being worked on. Complaining that Mandrake doesn't detect card X doesn't help the situation, unless you provide a really detailed bug report or code to do the detection. People who say Linux is hard to install generally have not tried installing Windows. Having installed Windows and Linux on a few different machines, I have found that Linux (and in particular Mandrake, crawl, crawl) is much better at detecting hardware. Another big complaint is the partitioning. But I don't think that there *is* an easy way to handle this, unless you assume that it's ok to wipe a HD. But partitioning an existing system is going to be complicated and varies depending on the computer, so no automatic system will be possible. Very true. We penguinistas suffer from having the tolerant attitude that a user may want to install more than one OS on their computer, and so provide helpful (if sometimes confusing) advice on the dark art of disk partitioning. Ever tried using Windows fdisk to run multiple OS's? I hope not. Apart from hardware support and partitioning, what newbie-unfriendliness is there? None. I bet it would be easy to get volunteers for this job, as it would be an excellent way to meet women :) *grin* I don't think so. At the risk of overgeneralisation, any woman who is prepared to install Linux is also familiar with system administration, C++ and all the the rest. Robin
[Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Is there any thought to having ONLY first-time users attempt to install and use basic L-M setup? Maybe the kiosks of Paris? i.e. Install the Distro, Have printing,modem,sound, video,internet connections all working or find out why they didn't? Kind of like a pre-Movie screening that is sometimes shown in theaters which can actually lead to changes in the main release. I realize this is what we are supposed to be doing! However many "average" (whatever that may mean) users, do not have the time,inclination, or intestinal fortitude, to whip themselves into long-night bleary eyed sessions, trying to stay up with the latest cutting edge. I have been trying to spread the word about Linux and Linux-Mandrake in paticular for years but have found, unfortuantely fairly often, even highly intelligent people, some with advanced education levels and professionals in the use of technology , CANNOT GET AN INSTALL OF LINUX UP AND RUNNING AND THEN USE IT . Even after several years of Linux use I still frequently find myself "lost in limbo". Maybe too much Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin music in the 70s :) I am okay with that but others,even as they may desire to get away from M$, have a very hard time of it. Anyhow just random thoughts here. Keep up the great work People. This a great distro of a great OS. Seems that about this time of development, the "Flames" start getting a little "Hotter" :) William Bouterse Talkeetna Ak
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Not to be totally negative, but are we really all about that? I mean is it all about getting everyone able to use linux? Sure it's a nice idea but not the focus of linux, I'm one who thinks that windows is for people that can't use linux and good for them. Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. Different strokes for different folks and lets just leave it that way I say. I'd rather focus on security, stability, and power with useability being my smallest concern in a distro. Just like the hot-rod isn't for the average driver linux shouldn't necesarilly be for the average computer user. If it works out that way through evolution fine, but I don't think we should push it and change focus from what brought linux where it's at now. Amiga died trying to be something other than what made it popular. Just my 2 cents - don't take me too seriously I'm a pessemist. ;) William H Bouterse wrote: Is there any thought to having ONLY first-time users attempt to install and use basic L-M setup? Maybe the kiosks of Paris? i.e. Install the Distro, Have printing,modem,sound, video,internet connections all working or find out why they didn't? Kind of like a pre-Movie screening that is sometimes shown in theaters which can actually lead to changes in the main release. I realize this is what we are supposed to be doing! However many "average" (whatever that may mean) users, do not have the time,inclination, or intestinal fortitude, to whip themselves into long-night bleary eyed sessions, trying to stay up with the latest cutting edge. I have been trying to spread the word about Linux and Linux-Mandrake in paticular for years but have found, unfortuantely fairly often, even highly intelligent people, some with advanced education levels and professionals in the use of technology , CANNOT GET AN INSTALL OF LINUX UP AND RUNNING AND THEN USE IT . Even after several years of Linux use I still frequently find myself "lost in limbo". Maybe too much Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin music in the 70s :) I am okay with that but others,even as they may desire to get away from M$, have a very hard time of it. Anyhow just random thoughts here. Keep up the great work People. This a great distro of a great OS. Seems that about this time of development, the "Flames" start getting a little "Hotter" :) William Bouterse Talkeetna Ak -- The road to Microsoft is paved with [others] good intentions. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
This is a good idea, things that seem simple to us can baffle beginners. I recall, for instance, when asked to "specify the mount point of the root partition" I repeatedly tried "root" instead of "/" :o) I bet it would be easy to get volunteers for this job, as it would be an excellent way to meet women :) -WBD William H Bouterse wrote: Is there any thought to having ONLY first-time users attempt to install and use basic L-M setup? Maybe the kiosks of Paris? i.e. Install the Distro, Have printing,modem,sound, video,internet connections all working or find out why they didn't? Kind of like a pre-Movie screening that is sometimes shown in theaters which can actually lead to changes in the main release. I realize this is what we are supposed to be doing! However many "average" (whatever that may mean) users, do not have the time,inclination, or intestinal fortitude, to whip themselves into long-night bleary eyed sessions, trying to stay up with the latest cutting edge. I have been trying to spread the word about Linux and Linux-Mandrake in paticular for years but have found, unfortuantely fairly often, even highly intelligent people, some with advanced education levels and professionals in the use of technology , CANNOT GET AN INSTALL OF LINUX UP AND RUNNING AND THEN USE IT . Even after several years of Linux use I still frequently find myself "lost in limbo". Maybe too much Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin music in the 70s :) I am okay with that but others,even as they may desire to get away from M$, have a very hard time of it. Anyhow just random thoughts here. Keep up the great work People. This a great distro of a great OS. Seems that about this time of development, the "Flames" start getting a little "Hotter" :) William Bouterse Talkeetna Ak
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
William H Bouterse wrote:
Is there any thought to having ONLY
first-time users attempt to install and use basic
L-M setup?
That's one option. The other which I practice, is to sandbox my mind and do the
install without trying anything a total newbie wouldn't; it's actually quite
easy if you just focus strictly on the context of what you see, hear and read.
Imagine not cheating on a test...
I have been trying to spread the word about
Linux and Linux-Mandrake in paticular for years but have found,
unfortuantely fairly often, even highly intelligent people,
some with advanced education levels and professionals in the use
of technology , CANNOT GET AN INSTALL OF LINUX UP
AND RUNNING AND THEN USE IT .
Totally agree. I'm about to help my sister in Canada install LM7.2 when it hits
the street; the problem is that I'll be doing this remotely from NC. She's
never used Linux; but is determined to make the switch because M$ finally pissed
her off for the last time. She run's her startup business from a wheelchair at
home, so she is going to rely heavily on me now that her son is off to college.
My concern is that for the initial install, I can only give guidance and let her
fly solo... That's why I stress the install/upgrade issues.
Keep up the great work People.
This a great distro of a great OS.
Seconded! My first paid distro was RH4.1, then several others to 5.2 after
which I bought LM6.0 and 6.5 which I liked better. The reason I haven't
purchased 7.0 or 7.1 is that I've had too many problems with install/upgrade.
However, what I like best about Mandrake is that they *listen* and do a great
support job. I've gotten the "shove off" from RedHat once too many times to
ever go back to that distro; RH doesn't support beyond the newbie level IMO.
That said, I filed a bug on: install via pcmcia/ftp fails in stage2 ("install
exited abnormally -- received signal 9")... this level of install problem
should be in the show-stopper category; but I'll leave that call to LM.
I really want to buy copies of 7.2; but 7.2b3 doesn't cut it. If I can't
install a distro on my least critical machines, it doesn't get on my main one.
So far, I'm chomping at the bit to see 7.2... but gotta get past the
install
Pierre
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Not to be totally negative, but are we really all about that? I mean is it all about getting everyone able to use linux? Sure it's a nice idea but not the focus of linux, I'm one who thinks that windows is for people that can't use linux and good for them. Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. Different strokes for different folks and lets just leave it that way I say. I'd rather focus on security, stability, and power with useability being my smallest concern in a distro. Just like the hot-rod isn't for the average driver linux shouldn't necesarilly be for the average computer user. If it works out that way through evolution fine, but I don't think we should push it and change focus from what brought linux where it's at now. Amiga died trying to be something other than what made it popular. Just my 2 cents - don't take me too seriously I'm a pessemist. ;) While security and stability are a definate must, the MAJORITY of computer users are not able/willing to hack their system into complience. I believe it should be the goal of every OS to achieve the delicate balance of features, stability, security, and ease of use. If a distrobution wants to make it in the big bad market dominated by a certain monster of a company ease of use is a must. Face it, not everyone sits at their computer and codes all day long. Don't get me wrong I love being able to sit down and get something done in C++ but I love to put that down and relax with my high tech sound card blasting some Canadian Rock music by a band called Rush, or stress relief by fragging the occasional teenager in UT. =) Why stop at a secure and stable OS when you can make it well rounded as well. Sorry if anyone disagrees with this, and I will not cloud the mailing list answering flames. So this is my view on an OS... If you share the same view, cool, if not, I won't lose any sleep over it. Tim McKenzie Appalachian State University [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, William H Bouterse? I realize this is what we are supposed to be doing! However many "average" (whatever that may mean) users, do not have the time,inclination, or intestinal fortitude, to whip themselves into long-night bleary eyed sessions, trying to stay up with the latest cutting edge. Everything works out of the box here. Some hardware just isn't nice. I have been trying to spread the word about Linux and Linux-Mandrake in paticular for years but have found, unfortuantely fairly often, even highly intelligent people, some with advanced education levels and professionals in the use of technology , CANNOT GET AN INSTALL OF LINUX UP AND RUNNING AND THEN USE IT . Then either they were trying to install it on a non-i586 machine or they aren't actually intelligent || professional. I am okay with that but others,even as they may desire to get away from M$, have a very hard time of it. If somebody really wants to get away from MS, it's possible. They might have to spend a week learning that you only need to single-click in KDE instead of double-click, but anybody who seriously tries can do it. Seems that about this time of development, the "Flames" start getting a little "Hotter" :) This is the thing that really bugs me. Comments about ease-of-installation (and they should be *specific* comments, not "it's too hard for my four-year old child to install") should have come two months ago. This is *far* too late to change anything major for 7.2. And comments for 8.0 should wait a few weeks so that the Mandrake team can calm down after the release. -- Graham Percival
RE: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Howdy, I tried to resist but this is so important that I MUST express my view.NTAC. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] comments you say: "I'd rather focus on security, stability, and power with useability being my smallest concern in a distro." I say: Jeez, bud, what do you think USABILITY actually is??? you say: "Just my 2 cents - don't take me too seriously I'm a pessemist. ;) " I say: you are not a pessimist - you're confused :). The issue in the post was about INSTALL ability. Consider this. You want a paper route. You want to use a bicycle to deliver the papers, but you don't know how to ride a bicycle. Others have told you how great it is, how easy it is, how you will never forget how to do it once you learn. Some have even explained in detail how to do it. You've read books. But every time you get on a bike, the bike falls down and you fall off. How are you going to learn to ride a bike if you can't even stay up on it long enough to get anywhere? ? The point being that the install of Linux -via a distribution- must be so trivial that even someone who can't learn to ride a bike can do it. Once it's installed, the newbie* will learn how to use it...or not -IDC. I personally think that MandrakeSoft has the best lead towards that goal. Unfortunately, it's not there yet. If you doubt the veracity of that, visit the alt.os.linux.mandrake newsgroup. Almost all the posts that are there are about one subject and one subject only - installation. The posts' titles vary but it's almost always the same problem: how do I get this to work ? - meaning installed properly. Fixing the main installation of the OS and the fundamental peripherals so that it cannot crash and burn, providing real -valuable- verbose feedback about the problem the installation is having regardless of the cause of the problem that makes the installation choke or die, and making it impossible to destroy partitions or MBR of any other currently installed OS should be, imho, the number one focus for all distributions of Linux. A monumental but not impossible task which, I think, could be achieved by the LM 8.0 release some time next year. Of course, I have a pretty high opinion of these folks at MandrakeSoft. ( even if they do eat snails (~: ) Ok, I said my piece- I'll go away now. lll ??? ~ *Newbie does not mean stupid. == |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] |Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 14:41 |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum . DELETED to save BW. . |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |ICQ 1796276 _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Honda civics are for people who can't use 1970 Chevy's with 454 big blocks, blowers and keep dual Carbs tuned. '69 396 CI Chevelles were a LOT faster ;) Folks, I believe y'all under estimate the audience. I know the feelin. I just mailed off my 7.1 CD's this mornin to an Internet friend (I know him from a private NASCAR mailing list). A little about my own situation tho. I've been runnin Linux for a little over 3 years. I'm still newbie status tho. I've had a serious brain disease (cp-MS) for almost 10 years that makes it very difficult to concentrate and/or retain information. Linux is my therapy, ie, 'use it or loose it'. My point is, there's a million reasons besides wanting a non-Billy desktop, for new users to be drawn to Linux. For me, it not functionality that's utmost, I like the challenge. There's some rebel in me also. -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [Cooker] A thought on 7.2 ad. infinitum
Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Warren Doney? This is a good idea, things that seem simple to us can baffle beginners. I recall, for instance, when asked to "specify the mount point of the root partition" I repeatedly tried "root" instead of "/" :o) Isn't that what "auto allocate" is for? I'm a bit puzzled by all these cries for easier installs. OK, some hardware is not detected automatically (be it USB printers, ISA network cards, $400 mice, whatever). Better hardware detection is *always* being worked on. Complaining that Mandrake doesn't detect card X doesn't help the situation, unless you provide a really detailed bug report or code to do the detection. Another big complaint is the partitioning. But I don't think that there *is* an easy way to handle this, unless you assume that it's ok to wipe a HD. But partitioning an existing system is going to be complicated and varies depending on the computer, so no automatic system will be possible. Apart from hardware support and partitioning, what newbie-unfriendliness is there? I bet it would be easy to get volunteers for this job, as it would be an excellent way to meet women :) *grin*
