Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:50:02 -0800, David Walser > wrote: > >> and if one does not want kde but does want > geramik > >> theme for its gtk+ > >> apps ? > > > > One wouldn't. You need KDE for Geramik, it's > > dependent on it, and configured through it. If > one > > wanted a Keramik-like theme for Gtk+ (sans KDE) > they > > wouldn't want Geramik. > > Really ? > > Work prefectly here without KDE installed.. Well it's not a library dependency on KDE, but it reads your .qt/* and such, files that are configured through KDE, and you need KDE to configure it (unless you want to edit those files by hand). The point is there are other Keramik-like Gtk+ themes that are normal Gtk+ themes, configured with Gtk+/Gnome tools and everything. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I must admit I have forgotten this case: a multiuser
> machine, where some
> use KDE and others use GNOME. But my argument (it
> invades users who use
> default theme in GNOME) still holds true. Everything
> boils down to the
> scriptlets:
>
> %post
> if [ $1 != 2 ]; then
> if [ ! -f /etc/gtk/gtkrc ]; then
> ln -s %{_datadir}/themes/Geramik/gtk/gtkrc
> /etc/gtk/gtkrc
> fi
> if [ ! -f /etc/gtk/gtkrc-2.0 ]; then
> ln -s %{_datadir}/themes/Geramik/gtk-2.0/gtkrc-2.0
> /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc
> fi
> fi
>
> %preun
> if [ $1 == 0 ]; then
> if grep %{name} /etc/gtk/gtkrc > /dev/null
> 2>&1 ;then
> rm -f /etc/gtk/gtkrc
> fi
> if grep %{name} /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc > /dev/null 2>&1
> ;then
> rm -f /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc
> fi
> fi
>
> If one says that:
> since sysadmins installed Geramik on those systems,
> and sysadmins are
> supposed to be in control, users who use default
> theme in GNOME-only
> environment shouldn't complain about their default
> theme changed, as
> sysadmins are always correct.
> Then I'll give up.
Well, there's two things you're overlooking though.
For one, the sysadmin still has the power to just
delete those system-wide gtkrc's, and the scripts make
sure to not put them back on any future upgrades of
the package. So even though at first install the
action is to make Geramik default, the sysadmin has a
choice, and their choice is honored forever.
Secondly, having Geramik as the default system-wide
theme does *not* stop users from picking a different
Gtk+ theme for themselves.
> Hope GTK2_RC_FILE can be a solution. I'll wait and
> see.
Yep.
__
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Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:50:02 -0800, David Walser wrote: >> and if one does not want kde but does want geramik >> theme for its gtk+ >> apps ? > > One wouldn't. You need KDE for Geramik, it's > dependent on it, and configured through it. If one > wanted a Keramik-like theme for Gtk+ (sans KDE) they > wouldn't want Geramik. Really ? Work prefectly here without KDE installed.. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So you should know that these stupid requires are > used to mimic what > > David wants, but not what *I* want. Requires? We're talking about scripts. They're what most Geramik users out there want, not just me. And as far as having to convince me, I have no power to do anything about this. Crozat abused his power, and now there's a broken Geramik package sitting there. I'm not happy, other people aren't happy, but there's nothing I can do about it. Ho hum. > That's simply not true, though. David said that > Geramik shouldn't be > *used* by people who use GNOME, which is perfectly > true - it's kind of > silly (no offence Thierry, but it is!) He never said > it shouldn't be > installed on a machine which has GNOME on it. Linux > is MULTIUSER, > remember. It should be possible to install Geramik > on a machine used by > people who use GNOME and people who use KDE, for use > only by the people > who use KDE. And that's a criticism of the scripts that I agree with. Now to find a solution... __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Thierry Vignaud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Is this possible? > > > > The simplest way I can think of is: > > > > Requires: kdebase > > Conflicts: gnome-desktop gnome-session > > and if one want both kde and gnome ? exactly > and if one does not want kde but does want geramik > theme for its gtk+ > apps ? One wouldn't. You need KDE for Geramik, it's dependent on it, and configured through it. If one wanted a Keramik-like theme for Gtk+ (sans KDE) they wouldn't want Geramik. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-16(Thu) 09:14:25 +, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > So you should know that these stupid requires are used to mimic what
> > David wants, but not what *I* want.
>
> That's simply not true, though. David said that Geramik shouldn't be
> *used* by people who use GNOME, which is perfectly true - it's kind of
> silly (no offence Thierry, but it is!) He never said it shouldn't be
> installed on a machine which has GNOME on it. Linux is MULTIUSER,
> remember. It should be possible to install Geramik on a machine used by
> people who use GNOME and people who use KDE, for use only by the people
> who use KDE.
I must admit I have forgotten this case: a multiuser machine, where some
use KDE and others use GNOME. But my argument (it invades users who use
default theme in GNOME) still holds true. Everything boils down to the
scriptlets:
%post
if [ $1 != 2 ]; then
if [ ! -f /etc/gtk/gtkrc ]; then
ln -s %{_datadir}/themes/Geramik/gtk/gtkrc /etc/gtk/gtkrc
fi
if [ ! -f /etc/gtk/gtkrc-2.0 ]; then
ln -s %{_datadir}/themes/Geramik/gtk-2.0/gtkrc-2.0 /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc
fi
fi
%preun
if [ $1 == 0 ]; then
if grep %{name} /etc/gtk/gtkrc > /dev/null 2>&1 ;then
rm -f /etc/gtk/gtkrc
fi
if grep %{name} /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc > /dev/null 2>&1 ;then
rm -f /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc
fi
fi
If one says that:
since sysadmins installed Geramik on those systems, and sysadmins are
supposed to be in control, users who use default theme in GNOME-only
environment shouldn't complain about their default theme changed, as
sysadmins are always correct.
Then I'll give up.
Hope GTK2_RC_FILE can be a solution. I'll wait and see.
--
Abel Cheung
GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc
msg86336/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Thu, 2003-01-16 at 09:01, R.I.P. Deaddog wrote: > On 2003-01-16(Thu) 09:14:32 +0100, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > > i have read the above thread and i agree on the stupid scripts > > destruction but i strongly disagree with these stupid requires as i > > did use geramik theme even if some think "it's just not another gtk > > theme" > > So you should know that these stupid requires are used to mimic what > David wants, but not what *I* want. That's simply not true, though. David said that Geramik shouldn't be *used* by people who use GNOME, which is perfectly true - it's kind of silly (no offence Thierry, but it is!) He never said it shouldn't be installed on a machine which has GNOME on it. Linux is MULTIUSER, remember. It should be possible to install Geramik on a machine used by people who use GNOME and people who use KDE, for use only by the people who use KDE. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-16(Thu) 09:14:32 +0100, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > i have read the above thread and i agree on the stupid scripts > destruction but i strongly disagree with these stupid requires as i > did use geramik theme even if some think "it's just not another gtk > theme" So you should know that these stupid requires are used to mimic what David wants, but not what *I* want. > you see, we're in a free software world, and freedom means that if i > want to use that particular theme, there's no political reason to deny > me this right. You have to convince David instead, not me. I regret _so_ much I have been immersed in this thread. -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg86322/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
"R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > His original %post/%postun links /etc/gtk/gtkrc and > /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc to Geramik theme. This act invades people > who use default theme on GNOME desktop, and Crozat removed > his scripts. You can see the earlier thread. i have read the above thread and i agree on the stupid scripts destruction but i strongly disagree with these stupid requires as i did use geramik theme even if some think "it's just not another gtk theme" you see, we're in a free software world, and freedom means that if i want to use that particular theme, there's no political reason to deny me this right.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-16(Thu) 07:11:43 +0100, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Is this possible? > > > > The simplest way I can think of is: > > > > Requires: kdebase > > Conflicts: gnome-desktop gnome-session > > and if one want both kde and gnome ? > and if one does not want kde but does want geramik theme for its gtk+ > apps ? David said that, Geramik is only for those people who only use KDE as desktop, and just occasionally use GTK+ apps under KDE. Those who use GNOME desktop shouldn't ever use it. That's why I propose these absurd Requires/Conflicts, if he insist getting his %post/%postun scripts back. But he keep telling me I misunderstood him, while I just quoted his intended usage of Geramik. His original %post/%postun links /etc/gtk/gtkrc and /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc to Geramik theme. This act invades people who use default theme on GNOME desktop, and Crozat removed his scripts. You can see the earlier thread. Somehow I become tired of this thread. :) -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg86311/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
"R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Is this possible? > > The simplest way I can think of is: > > Requires: kdebase > Conflicts: gnome-desktop gnome-session and if one want both kde and gnome ? and if one does not want kde but does want geramik theme for its gtk+ apps ?
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 15:53, Michael Scherer wrote: > > I think it's a good thing to package it like any other GTK theme. > > I understand what you want though. But imo it would only make sense if > > you select Keramik in Kcontrol and decide to have other apps follow that > > theme, maybe then it should setup Geramik as default GTK theme. Not when > > simply installing the theme. > > What about 2 packages, one with the theme, the others who enable it as a > default theme for Gtk, and who requires the first package.. > This way, the sysadmin can choose. > I agree that it is annoying to have it as a default theme. > > But, on the other hand, you need to know how to switch, which mean that you > need the gnome control center, which implie all gnome related stuff. > Or how to change a theme on the command line, which not a newbie-friendly > way... > > > Mick What about a .gnome-kde for when you start a program when you are in kde. But to be honnest i think the person who said:" Having two desktops looking similar but behave differently is worse than what we currently have, IMHO." is more than right
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "J.A. Magallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - How to generate an enough similar theme to the kde > one for .gtkrc-kde, and > in an automated way each time the user changes > theme...ie, the hard part... > perhaps a ton of perl can do it. Generate? Whoa. I bet some Linux company would be willing to pay good money if someone could come up with something that does that. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003.01.16 David Walser wrote: > Interesting. Thanks. > > --- "J.A. Magallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think I found a possible solution. Look at > > > > > http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gtk/gtk-Resource-Files.html > > > > Let Geramik be a plain gtk theme, and set > > GTK2_RC_FILES for the user. As I see it, there are two problems: - Forcing GTK apps under KDE to load a certain theme. This can be done with the info in the above pointer. - How to generate an enough similar theme to the kde one for .gtkrc-kde, and in an automated way each time the user changes theme...ie, the hard part... perhaps a ton of perl can do it. -- J.A. Magallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> \ Software is like sex: werewolf.able.es \ It's better when it's free Mandrake Linux release 9.1 (Cooker) for i586 Linux 2.4.21-pre3-jam2 (gcc 3.2.1 (Mandrake Linux 9.1 3.2.1-2mdk))
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
Interesting. Thanks. --- "J.A. Magallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think I found a possible solution. Look at > > http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gtk/gtk-Resource-Files.html > > Let Geramik be a plain gtk theme, and set > GTK2_RC_FILES for the user. > Perhaps it can be set like > GTK2_RC_FILES=~/.gtkrc-kde in kde startup scripts, > and put there anything you like for gnome apps under > kde to look similar to > kde theme. > > As there is /usr/share/themes/Crux/gtk, .../gtk-2.0, > there could be something > like /Keramik/kde, /Keramik/gtk-2.0, so if test -f > /gtk-2.0/gtkrc, > copy it to ~/.gtkrc-kde. > > Just ideas... > > -- > J.A. Magallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> \ > Software is like sex: > werewolf.able.es \ > It's better when it's free > Mandrake Linux release 9.1 (Cooker) for i586 > Linux 2.4.21-pre3-jam2 (gcc 3.2.1 (Mandrake Linux > 9.1 3.2.1-2mdk)) > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003.01.16 David Walser wrote: > --- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 2003-01-15(Wed) 10:57:06 -0800, David Walser > > wrote: > > > > That means you need to make Geramik cope with > > > > people's > > > > change in behavoir. > > > > > > Still doesn't make sense. I'll agree with one > > point > > > you've made...if there were a way to have it > > install > > > itself by default, but only activate for users > > that > > > are in KDE (kind of like .gtkrc-kde), that would > > be > > > better. > > > > > > Is this possible? > > I think I found a possible solution. Look at http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gtk/gtk-Resource-Files.html Let Geramik be a plain gtk theme, and set GTK2_RC_FILES for the user. Perhaps it can be set like GTK2_RC_FILES=~/.gtkrc-kde in kde startup scripts, and put there anything you like for gnome apps under kde to look similar to kde theme. As there is /usr/share/themes/Crux/gtk, .../gtk-2.0, there could be something like /Keramik/kde, /Keramik/gtk-2.0, so if test -f /gtk-2.0/gtkrc, copy it to ~/.gtkrc-kde. Just ideas... -- J.A. Magallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> \ Software is like sex: werewolf.able.es \ It's better when it's free Mandrake Linux release 9.1 (Cooker) for i586 Linux 2.4.21-pre3-jam2 (gcc 3.2.1 (Mandrake Linux 9.1 3.2.1-2mdk))
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2003-01-15(Wed) 10:57:06 -0800, David Walser > wrote: > > > That means you need to make Geramik cope with > > > people's > > > change in behavoir. > > > > Still doesn't make sense. I'll agree with one > point > > you've made...if there were a way to have it > install > > itself by default, but only activate for users > that > > are in KDE (kind of like .gtkrc-kde), that would > be > > better. > > > > Is this possible? > > The simplest way I can think of is: > > Requires: kdebase > Conflicts: gnome-desktop gnome-session So you obviously didn't understand what I was saying at all. Let me elaborate. A user's gtk configuration is stored in a file called .gtkrc in their home directory. There can also be a file called .gtkrc-kde that will contain Gtk+ settings that will only take effect if the user is logged into KDE. If there is a system-wide analog of this, it would make the most sense. > Your arguments still failed to convince me, so this > is the most I can help. I thought I was pretty clear at explaining what Geramik is. Beyond that, the things I've been saying should become obvious. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-15(Wed) 10:57:06 -0800, David Walser wrote: > > That means you need to make Geramik cope with > > people's > > change in behavoir. > > Still doesn't make sense. I'll agree with one point > you've made...if there were a way to have it install > itself by default, but only activate for users that > are in KDE (kind of like .gtkrc-kde), that would be > better. > > Is this possible? The simplest way I can think of is: Requires: kdebase Conflicts: gnome-desktop gnome-session This should fit your intended usage. You can try convincing Fred if your scriptlets can be added back if the above 2 lines are added as well. Your arguments still failed to convince me, so this is the most I can help. Abel -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg86239/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2003-01-14(Tue) 16:48:46 -0800, David Walser > wrote: > > > Now I see the point. Geramik is trying to do > what > > > Bluecurve did, right? > > > > Basically. More specifically, the color, font, > and > > related settings that you configure for Keramik in > KDE > > Control Center are what Geramik uses, rather than > > reading .gtkrc* files and being configured with > Gnome > > tools. It's a Gtk+ theme for KDE users who have > to > > use Gtk+ apps, and it keeps the look of the two > > consistent 100% of the time. I'm not entirely > sure if > > Bluecurve is set up that way to be configured in > one > > place, and always look the same no matter the > toolkit, > > but if it doesn't do that it probably will in the > > future. > > I think I get your entire point now. So Geramik is > for those > who solely uses KDE as desktop, but don't touch > GNOME > desktop at all. They usually use KDE apps, but > occasionally use GTK+ apps, and want to make those > GTK+ apps look consistant with the whole Keramik > theme. > Isn't it? Right. > However, I see why Fred has removed your scripts, > since > the effect of your %post/%postun scripts has gone > too > far -- it affected *ALL* persons who use GTK+ > software. So what? #1 - it's the sysadmin's choice to install it. It only makes sense to install if it's default really BUT #2 - if you for whatever reason wanted to have it installed and not default, it went out of its way to honor that choice. No affect on other Gtk+ users at all. There was no reason to remove all that work. > Besides, it still remains correct if no > %post/%postun > scripts is used, since people who want it can still > use > it anytime, and nothing is lost. That just doesn't make sense. > > If they don't want it (I'd want to hear this from > > Laurent first, as it's really for KDE users. > Crozat > > is the Gnome guy and he really has no business > messing > > with it), then they should delete it from contrib, > and > > probably additionally configure KDE to not use > Keramik > > by default. > > As I have said, you've gone too far. At least you > have to > write the scripts in such a way that, only those who > use > desktop in THAT way is affected. Yes, you have to > make > sure that people installed KDE desktop only, and if > people > install GNOME desktop later, your changes have to be > undone immediately and nicely. The idea is sysadmins that install this are supporting KDE for their users. You wouldn't want such a thing installed if that weren't the case. > That means you need to make Geramik cope with > people's > change in behavoir. Still doesn't make sense. I'll agree with one point you've made...if there were a way to have it install itself by default, but only activate for users that are in KDE (kind of like .gtkrc-kde), that would be better. Is this possible? > > > If the above is not achieved, Geramik will just > be a > > > normal > > > theme, nothing more, nothing less (quoted). > > > > No, that's still wrong. I think you'll understand > > from my explanation what Geramik really is. If > you > > just want a Gtk+ theme that looks like Keramik, > > Geramik is not what you want. Such "normal > themes" do > > exist. > > Yes, I do understand your point now, but still think > what > you proposition (its "intended usage") is flawed: > can knife > manufacturers say that knives are only for slicing > food, > and they prohibit people to use it differently? Because of the way Geramik works, you *can't* use it differently, and noone's going to. Someone that wants a Keramik-like Gtk+ theme will find one (they exist) and use that, not Geramik. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-14(Tue) 16:48:46 -0800, David Walser wrote: > > Now I see the point. Geramik is trying to do what > > Bluecurve did, right? > > Basically. More specifically, the color, font, and > related settings that you configure for Keramik in KDE > Control Center are what Geramik uses, rather than > reading .gtkrc* files and being configured with Gnome > tools. It's a Gtk+ theme for KDE users who have to > use Gtk+ apps, and it keeps the look of the two > consistent 100% of the time. I'm not entirely sure if > Bluecurve is set up that way to be configured in one > place, and always look the same no matter the toolkit, > but if it doesn't do that it probably will in the > future. I think I get your entire point now. So Geramik is for those who solely uses KDE as desktop, but don't touch GNOME desktop at all. They usually use KDE apps, but occasionally use GTK+ apps, and want to make those GTK+ apps look consistant with the whole Keramik theme. Isn't it? However, I see why Fred has removed your scripts, since the effect of your %post/%postun scripts has gone too far -- it affected *ALL* persons who use GTK+ software. Besides, it still remains correct if no %post/%postun scripts is used, since people who want it can still use it anytime, and nothing is lost. > If they don't want it (I'd want to hear this from > Laurent first, as it's really for KDE users. Crozat > is the Gnome guy and he really has no business messing > with it), then they should delete it from contrib, and > probably additionally configure KDE to not use Keramik > by default. As I have said, you've gone too far. At least you have to write the scripts in such a way that, only those who use desktop in THAT way is affected. Yes, you have to make sure that people installed KDE desktop only, and if people install GNOME desktop later, your changes have to be undone immediately and nicely. That means you need to make Geramik cope with people's change in behavoir. > > If the above is not achieved, Geramik will just be a > > normal > > theme, nothing more, nothing less (quoted). > > No, that's still wrong. I think you'll understand > from my explanation what Geramik really is. If you > just want a Gtk+ theme that looks like Keramik, > Geramik is not what you want. Such "normal themes" do > exist. Yes, I do understand your point now, but still think what you proposition (its "intended usage") is flawed: can knife manufacturers say that knives are only for slicing food, and they prohibit people to use it differently? Abel -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg86172/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
> I think it's a good thing to package it like any other GTK theme. > I understand what you want though. But imo it would only make sense if you > select Keramik in Kcontrol and decide to have other apps follow that theme, > maybe then it should setup Geramik as default GTK theme. Not when simply > installing the theme. What about 2 packages, one with the theme, the others who enable it as a default theme for Gtk, and who requires the first package.. This way, the sysadmin can choose. I agree that it is annoying to have it as a default theme. But, on the other hand, you need to know how to switch, which mean that you need the gnome control center, which implie all gnome related stuff. Or how to change a theme on the command line, which not a newbie-friendly way... Mick
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Marcel Pol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It's for KDE users, and only for KDE users. He > > shouldn't be messing with it. Anyway it's > contrib, I > > don't see why he can't just ignore it. > > I don't run KDE, but I do use Geramik. Do you > suggest I quit using it right > away? Yes. God forbid you ever want to change any of the settings on it, you'll have to use KDE ::gasp:: If you want a Keramik look-alike Gtk+ theme, such themes do exist. Find one of those instead. > It's just a GTK theme, even though it is aimed at > GTK users. Wrong. It's not a regular Gtk+ theme, and it's aimed at KDE users who have to use Gtk+ apps. > It still remains > a GTK theme. > Do you deny that it's just a GTK theme? Yes. > I think it's a good thing to package it like any > other GTK theme. It isn't, and it really isn't useful as such. > I understand what you want though. But imo it would > only make sense if you > select Keramik in Kcontrol and decide to have other > apps follow that theme, You don't have to select Keramik in Kcontrol, it is the default theme in KDE. > maybe then it should setup Geramik as default GTK > theme. Not when simply > installing the theme. So long as Keramik is the default KDE theme, the way the package was makes sense. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:49:23 -0800 (PST) David Walser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Levi Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It most certainly falls under Fred's purview. No > > matter how many times > > you repeat to yourself that it is not a GTK theme, > > the simple fact > > remains: it is. If it looks like a ducks, waddles > > like a duck, and > > quacks like a duck... > > It's for KDE users, and only for KDE users. He > shouldn't be messing with it. Anyway it's contrib, I > don't see why he can't just ignore it. I don't run KDE, but I do use Geramik. Do you suggest I quit using it right away? It's just a GTK theme, even though it is aimed at GTK users. It still remains a GTK theme. Do you deny that it's just a GTK theme? I think it's a good thing to package it like any other GTK theme. I understand what you want though. But imo it would only make sense if you select Keramik in Kcontrol and decide to have other apps follow that theme, maybe then it should setup Geramik as default GTK theme. Not when simply installing the theme. -- Marcel Pol Linux 2.4.21-pre2.1mdk-ringworld.2, up 3 days, 18:11 Registered User #163523
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Levi Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It most certainly falls under Fred's purview. No > matter how many times > you repeat to yourself that it is not a GTK theme, > the simple fact > remains: it is. If it looks like a ducks, waddles > like a duck, and > quacks like a duck... It's for KDE users, and only for KDE users. He shouldn't be messing with it. Anyway it's contrib, I don't see why he can't just ignore it. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Tue Jan 14 16:48 -0800, David Walser wrote: > If they don't want it (I'd want to hear this from > Laurent first, as it's really for KDE users. Crozat > is the Gnome guy and he really has no business messing > with it), then they should delete it from contrib, and > probably additionally configure KDE to not use Keramik > by default. It most certainly falls under Fred's purview. No matter how many times you repeat to yourself that it is not a GTK theme, the simple fact remains: it is. If it looks like a ducks, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Another January, another Bill Cowher choke-job GPG Key Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Monster Magnet - Melt Linux 2.4.20-0.4mdk 00:10:00 up 8:46, 5 users, load average: 0.03, 0.08, 0.08
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2003-01-14(Tue) 07:11:34 -0800, David Walser > wrote: > > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > This is right.. Theme packages should not screw > up > > > default theme.. There > > > is no point for discussion on that.. > > > > Geramik is not a normal theme. The only useful > > purpose it serves is being the default theme, > > alongside KDE's default Keramik theme. Looks-wise > > neither are all that wonderful, and noone's gonna > > choose to use them over something else. Their > only > > usefulness is in their consistency, it's basically > the > > same idea as Bluecurve. > > Now I see the point. Geramik is trying to do what > Bluecurve did, > right? Basically. More specifically, the color, font, and related settings that you configure for Keramik in KDE Control Center are what Geramik uses, rather than reading .gtkrc* files and being configured with Gnome tools. It's a Gtk+ theme for KDE users who have to use Gtk+ apps, and it keeps the look of the two consistent 100% of the time. I'm not entirely sure if Bluecurve is set up that way to be configured in one place, and always look the same no matter the toolkit, but if it doesn't do that it probably will in the future. > If this is so, then the current changes are > not enough. > You have to persuade Mandrake developers to use > G/Keramik > to replace the default mdk theme, and adopt > G/Keramik as > the default instead. Well, no not neccesarily. The way the package was set up before allowed a sysadmin to easily do that though, you just install it. And really having G/Keramik be default is the only configuration in which either of them are all that useful. Keramik is already the default theme in KDE (KDE choice, not Mandrake's), so if a sysadmin wanted a consistent desktop, all they had to do was install the Geramik package. Mandrake didn't neccesarily have to follow and install Geramik by default, but the way it was before gave them that option, it left that possibility open for them. If they wanted to follow RH sort of and have a consistent desktop, they wouldn't have to do anything fancy, just get Geramik installed. Now it's pretty much broken and useless of course. If they don't want it (I'd want to hear this from Laurent first, as it's really for KDE users. Crozat is the Gnome guy and he really has no business messing with it), then they should delete it from contrib, and probably additionally configure KDE to not use Keramik by default. > In additional to this, you also > need to > get the GNOME/KDE behavior sync'ed. Geramik already does this. > To sum up, > Mandrake have > to follow RedHat's decision to make GNOME/KDE > similar enough. Don't have to, but could. > If the above is not achieved, Geramik will just be a > normal > theme, nothing more, nothing less (quoted). No, that's still wrong. I think you'll understand from my explanation what Geramik really is. If you just want a Gtk+ theme that looks like Keramik, Geramik is not what you want. Such "normal themes" do exist. > Having two desktops looking similar but behave > differently is > worse than what we currently have, IMHO. Like I said, Geramik takes care of this (that's what it's for), but if it didn't, I'd have to agree with you. > > > Moreover, Gemarik is more than buggy > > > > Yes, there's only one author, I'm sure he'd > appreciate > > help. I would think having a well-working Geramik > > would be a desirable thing for MDK. > > Yes, not only for Mandrake, but good for everybody > who like > K/Geramik too. Hey Abel, thanks for your thoughtful response. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-14(Tue) 07:11:34 -0800, David Walser wrote: > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is right.. Theme packages should not screw up > > default theme.. There > > is no point for discussion on that.. > > Geramik is not a normal theme. The only useful > purpose it serves is being the default theme, > alongside KDE's default Keramik theme. Looks-wise > neither are all that wonderful, and noone's gonna > choose to use them over something else. Their only > usefulness is in their consistency, it's basically the > same idea as Bluecurve. Now I see the point. Geramik is trying to do what Bluecurve did, right? If this is so, then the current changes are not enough. You have to persuade Mandrake developers to use G/Keramik to replace the default mdk theme, and adopt G/Keramik as the default instead. In additional to this, you also need to get the GNOME/KDE behavior sync'ed. To sum up, Mandrake have to follow RedHat's decision to make GNOME/KDE similar enough. If the above is not achieved, Geramik will just be a normal theme, nothing more, nothing less (quoted). Having two desktops looking similar but behave differently is worse than what we currently have, IMHO. > > Moreover, Gemarik is more than buggy > > Yes, there's only one author, I'm sure he'd appreciate > help. I would think having a well-working Geramik > would be a desirable thing for MDK. Yes, not only for Mandrake, but good for everybody who like K/Geramik too. Abel -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg86024/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "J.A. Magallon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That idea is totally broken. Geramik is just another > theme. I said this > some time ago. No it is not. You are misunderstand what it's for. Also, I didn't ignore your complaints from before, I made a change so that if you deleted the gtkrcs, it would not ever put them back on you again from upgrading the package. > One other point is if there should be a Control > Center tool to setup default > themes for GTK1, GTK2, and KDE (or even XFCE), so > root can setup the defaults > for his box, but users still can change the theme if > they like so... Nothing the way it was before was keeping 1) users or 2) sysadmins from having control over themes. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
This is because it needed to be recompiled. --- "francesco.melo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the problem is that with germaik installed i can't > enter on gnome so now > i can set it like deafult so i can't use it for > mandrake tools : > > hi francesco > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:53:04 -0800, David Walser > wrote: > > > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> BlueCurve doesn't do such a mess as Geramik > >> package.. > > > > What mess? Be specific! > > The kind of mess I fixed ie becoming the default > theme for all users and > all environment on the system.. That's not a mess, that's what it should do. *It's the only way this particular theme is useful.* Also, it was very careful to *not* do that if you didn't want it to. > >> It is not broken, it is now behaving as a theme > >> package should behave.. > > > > Don't treat it like a regular Gtk+ theme package. > > That's not what it is!!! > > Sorry, it is a regular GTK+ (1 and 2) theme, nothing > more, nothing less.. No it is not. Far from it. You obviously don't even know what it is and shouldn't be messing with it! __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003.01.14 David Walser wrote: > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is right.. Theme packages should not screw up > > default theme.. There > > is no point for discussion on that.. > > Geramik is not a normal theme. The only useful > purpose it serves is being the default theme, > alongside KDE's default Keramik theme. Looks-wise > neither are all that wonderful, and noone's gonna > choose to use them over something else. Their only > usefulness is in their consistency, it's basically the > same idea as Bluecurve. > That idea is totally broken. Geramik is just another theme. I said this some time ago. One other point is if there should be a Control Center tool to setup default themes for GTK1, GTK2, and KDE (or even XFCE), so root can setup the defaults for his box, but users still can change the theme if they like so... -- J.A. Magallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> \ Software is like sex: werewolf.able.es \ It's better when it's free Mandrake Linux release 9.1 (Cooker) for i586 Linux 2.4.21-pre3-jam2 (gcc 3.2.1 (Mandrake Linux 9.1 3.2.1-2mdk))
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
Frederic Crozat wrote: On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:53:04 -0800, David Walser wrote: --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: BlueCurve doesn't do such a mess as Geramik package.. What mess? Be specific! The kind of mess I fixed ie becoming the default theme for all users and all environment on the system.. It is not broken, it is now behaving as a theme package should behave.. Don't treat it like a regular Gtk+ theme package. That's not what it is!!! Sorry, it is a regular GTK+ (1 and 2) theme, nothing more, nothing less.. the problem is that with germaik installed i can't enter on gnome so now i can set it like deafult so i can't use it for mandrake tools : hi francesco
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:53:04 -0800, David Walser wrote: > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> BlueCurve doesn't do such a mess as Geramik >> package.. > > What mess? Be specific! The kind of mess I fixed ie becoming the default theme for all users and all environment on the system.. >> It is not broken, it is now behaving as a theme >> package should behave.. > > Don't treat it like a regular Gtk+ theme package. > That's not what it is!!! Sorry, it is a regular GTK+ (1 and 2) theme, nothing more, nothing less.. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > BlueCurve doesn't do such a mess as Geramik > package.. What mess? Be specific! > It is not broken, it is now behaving as a theme > package should behave.. Don't treat it like a regular Gtk+ theme package. That's not what it is!!! __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:16:32 -0800, David Walser wrote: > --- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > The idea is if you install this you *want* that. >> BUT, >> ^^^ >> *THIS* idea is broken in this case. How many people >> will >> install *only* 1 theme? Generally people install >> many >> themes, and switch one by one later on if they like. >> If >> Geramik can establish itself as the default theme, >> why >> others can't? Or let them fight -- the first one >> installed wins? > > You totally misunderstand the point of Geramik. It's > not a regular Gtk+ theme. Its only usefulness is in > being the default theme, along with KDE's default > Keramik theme. In fact, Geramik is really only for > KDE users, and only they would *install* it. No Gtk+ > user is going to install it, let alone select it if > it's not default. They're not that great looking > themes, the only value in them is keeping > color/font/etc settings consistent between Qt and > Gtk+, like Bluecurve, just a bit less ugly. BlueCurve doesn't do such a mess as Geramik package.. > Also, even given this, the way it was done before > still lets you decide to disable it as default, or > make something else default and *DOESN'T GET IN YOUR > WAY.* It took great care in this. Now it's just > totally broken and useless. It is not broken, it is now behaving as a theme package should behave.. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The idea is if you install this you *want* that. > BUT, > ^^^ > *THIS* idea is broken in this case. How many people > will > install *only* 1 theme? Generally people install > many > themes, and switch one by one later on if they like. > If > Geramik can establish itself as the default theme, > why > others can't? Or let them fight -- the first one > installed wins? You totally misunderstand the point of Geramik. It's not a regular Gtk+ theme. Its only usefulness is in being the default theme, along with KDE's default Keramik theme. In fact, Geramik is really only for KDE users, and only they would *install* it. No Gtk+ user is going to install it, let alone select it if it's not default. They're not that great looking themes, the only value in them is keeping color/font/etc settings consistent between Qt and Gtk+, like Bluecurve, just a bit less ugly. Also, even given this, the way it was done before still lets you decide to disable it as default, or make something else default and *DOESN'T GET IN YOUR WAY.* It took great care in this. Now it's just totally broken and useless. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is right.. Theme packages should not screw up > default theme.. There > is no point for discussion on that.. Geramik is not a normal theme. The only useful purpose it serves is being the default theme, alongside KDE's default Keramik theme. Looks-wise neither are all that wonderful, and noone's gonna choose to use them over something else. Their only usefulness is in their consistency, it's basically the same idea as Bluecurve. > Moreover, Gemarik is more than buggy Yes, there's only one author, I'm sure he'd appreciate help. I would think having a well-working Geramik would be a desirable thing for MDK. > (try switching > from Gemarik to > another theme with gnome-theme-manager) and frankly, You said something about it not working, but that hasn't been my experience (has Gtk changed?). The only problem is, even if you switch to a different theme sometimes in newer Geramik versions a few pieces of it are still left over. I only see this in Gtk+1 though. > my only desire would > be to push it out of contrib (but I won't, don't > worry).. Well I'd rather KDE have a better default theme. Actually what might be cool is if Geramik were broken into two pieces, one that keeps the color/font/etc settings consistent between Qt and Gtk+ consistent, and another that's just the Keramiky theme. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-14(Tue) 06:33:17 -0800, David Walser wrote: > > I think that this is not only broken, but *abusive* > > too. Theme is a > > per-user setting, why is it trying to make itself as > > a global theme by > > default? > > The idea is if you install this you *want* that. BUT, ^^^ *THIS* idea is broken in this case. How many people will install *only* 1 theme? Generally people install many themes, and switch one by one later on if they like. If Geramik can establish itself as the default theme, why others can't? Or let them fight -- the first one installed wins? Abel > if you don't, it also is very careful to not get in > your way. If you set something else as default, it > won't override it. If you just delete that gtkrc it > puts in place (to disable this being the default) then > upgrade the package, it *won't* put it back. (Here > I'm talking about the old version before fcrozat > ruined it. The new version may not be as careful as > the old one was). -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg85973/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:14:10 +0800, R.I.P. Deaddog wrote: > --7iMSBzlTiPOCCT2k > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On 2003-01-14(Tue) 05:17:05 -0800, David Walser wrote: >> --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Name: Geramik=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= > =20=20=20=20=20 >> > Version : 0.17=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >> > * Tue Jan 14 2003 Frederic Crozat >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 0.17-2mdk >> >=20 >> > - Drop the gtkrc (un)installation stuff in >> > 0ost/0ostun, this is completely broken.. >>=20 >> Gah!!! You destroyed it! All that post/postun stuff >> was heavily tested and works perfectly. All bugs >> reported were squashed. Expect complaints now. >>=20 >> Would you mind explaning all of the below anyway? > > I think that this is not only broken, but *abusive* too. Theme is a > per-user setting, why is it trying to make itself as a global theme by > default? This is right.. Theme packages should not screw up default theme.. There is no point for discussion on that.. Moreover, Gemarik is more than buggy (try switching from Gemarik to another theme with gnome-theme-manager) and frankly, my only desire would be to push it out of contrib (but I won't, don't worry).. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
--- "R.I.P. Deaddog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2003-01-14(Tue) 05:17:05 -0800, David Walser > wrote: > > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Name: Geramik > > > Version : 0.17 > > > * Tue Jan 14 2003 Frederic Crozat > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 0.17-2mdk > > > > > > - Drop the gtkrc (un)installation stuff in > > > %post/%postun, this is completely broken.. > > > > Gah!!! You destroyed it! All that post/postun > stuff > > was heavily tested and works perfectly. All bugs > > reported were squashed. Expect complaints now. > > > > Would you mind explaning all of the below anyway? > > I think that this is not only broken, but *abusive* > too. Theme is a > per-user setting, why is it trying to make itself as > a global theme by > default? The idea is if you install this you *want* that. BUT, if you don't, it also is very careful to not get in your way. If you set something else as default, it won't override it. If you just delete that gtkrc it puts in place (to disable this being the default) then upgrade the package, it *won't* put it back. (Here I'm talking about the old version before fcrozat ruined it. The new version may not be as careful as the old one was). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Contrib-Rpm] Geramik-0.17-2mdk
On 2003-01-14(Tue) 05:17:05 -0800, David Walser wrote: > --- Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Name: Geramik > > Version : 0.17 > > * Tue Jan 14 2003 Frederic Crozat > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 0.17-2mdk > > > > - Drop the gtkrc (un)installation stuff in > > %post/%postun, this is completely broken.. > > Gah!!! You destroyed it! All that post/postun stuff > was heavily tested and works perfectly. All bugs > reported were squashed. Expect complaints now. > > Would you mind explaning all of the below anyway? I think that this is not only broken, but *abusive* too. Theme is a per-user setting, why is it trying to make itself as a global theme by default? -- Abel Cheung GPG Key: (0xC67186FF) http://deaddog.org/gpg.asc msg85965/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
