Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
Buchan Milne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Daouda LO wrote: > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > > [...] > > > > > >>>Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a > >>>clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual > >>>screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished > >>>hacking, the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed > >>>(and me too). > >> > >>You can easily access it after installation. > >>Start->Configuration->Other->Discover Custom Services (yes, that is a bad > >>place to put it, file a bug if you want). > > > > > > If you have better place, i wait for your proposal ;p > > > > Configuration->Packaging->Access Commercial packages > or > Configuration->Packaging->Mandrake Club packages > (or something like that?) Drakclub is aimed at first to create a one-month-free-trial-account, adding urpmi sources is one feature amongst others. I personnaly don't think that it belongs to Packaging :( Maybe it should be put on the desktop as before. Ok, i finished discussing with David and it's highly probable that we put it in 'Mandrake Galaxy Welcome Screen'. For the menu entry, we have to find a better location. > Now that we look at it (and regarding the rpmdrake thread), maybe > "Packaging" is a bad name for this section? Maybe it should be "Software > managemnet" or something (similar to the section in Mandrake Control > Center). > > Speaking of which, maybe drakclub needs an entry in MCC also (in the > sofware management section)? Yes, but not in the software management section.
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daouda LO wrote: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > [...] > > >>>Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a >>>clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual >>>screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished >>>hacking, the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed >>>(and me too). >> >>You can easily access it after installation. >>Start->Configuration->Other->Discover Custom Services (yes, that is a bad >>place to put it, file a bug if you want). > > > If you have better place, i wait for your proposal ;p > Configuration->Packaging->Access Commercial packages or Configuration->Packaging->Mandrake Club packages (or something like that?) Now that we look at it (and regarding the rpmdrake thread), maybe "Packaging" is a bad name for this section? Maybe it should be "Software managemnet" or something (similar to the section in Mandrake Control Center). Speaking of which, maybe drakclub needs an entry in MCC also (in the sofware management section)? Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/hUwJrJK6UGDSBKcRAjDQAJ9LwRPANvSZpuCXLDAFhyX3F+rLFgCcC5zp rUNx4UnZb1iliDq9gHqokaM= =ZUOH -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > > Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a > > clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual > > screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished > > hacking, the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed > > (and me too). > > You can easily access it after installation. > Start->Configuration->Other->Discover Custom Services (yes, that is a bad > place to put it, file a bug if you want). If you have better place, i wait for your proposal ;p [...] > Must I post screenshots?? > > If you missed it, just run 'drakfw' from the command line, and this is the > same thing you see on first login (if you haven't run it before). The binary name is _drakclub_ (specific part for the club account + urpmi sources managements). _drakfw_ is the whole wizard which is not suited to be started from command line. > The first page is default window manager, the 2nd page is email > client settings, the 3rd is the user survey, and the 4th is the Club > registration page, which does list the benefits a bit better, and > has the following options: -I have a product Key and I want to > register -I am already a member -No thanks. Yes this is drakfw which is a concatenation of smaller wizards which can be reused through menus or from command line (drakmail and drakclub respectively to setup mail accounts and club accounts/club urpmi sources)
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Buchan Milne wrote: | So far, no one has been willing to file a bug on gaim, so it's likely | not going to get any official attention (which was more what I was | aiming to bring across ...). | Just did so, see http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6094 and please vote for it. Hopefully this discussion can stop now. Regards, ~ Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/gsJan11XseNj94gRAoa+AKDw3kjMKmF0020vJeRhuKzf2tZA7gCdFVcd TZDblT2TBXAQvyVMu55BOcg= =s443 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> When you can't connect from any currently supported Mandrake release to a >> Windows 2003 Server, did we ship an update to samba-3.0.0 for all the >> current releases? > > >> No. Because they are feature enhancements. > > > Buchan, you should know better than comparing server products to desktop > products. Last time I checked, smbclient and /usr/lib/cups/backend/smb were used for desktop products (sure, my argument on samba-2.0.6 vs 2.0.7 may not be as valid). But, I think an end-user may be upset when they can't print after someone upgrades their file/print server to 2003 without notice ... > Sysadmins know where to get their stuff. So only sysadmins print? Use files on corporate file servers? > End users don't. I > wholeheartedly agree with the people here who say a new gaim should be > in the Bugfix updates, then at least there'll be *some* chance they'll > get a working gaim installed. MSN/Yahoo not working in an app that > claims to support those accounts, is technically a regression, and > Simply Broken from end user point of view, and we should do everything > to prevent that. So, then there should be updates for 9.1 also? As I said to Rob, file a bug (Rob can file a bug at http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com since he is using a stable release?). Look, I am not arguing that there should not be an update, but: - -there's no chance of it being in the initial release of 9.2 (I hope everyone has realised this, which was the issue that was initially oovered by this thread) - -bitching on cooker is likely not going to help, if you want an official response, file a bug - -there should be a policy on updates to avoid this kind of discussion in the future - -the policy should be applied fairly (and thus must be reasonable). If we are going to ship a gaim update, I think it would be reasonable (but require more testing) to ship a samba update, because IMHO they are equivalent (unless your assertion that only sysadmins print and access files is valid). So far, no one has been willing to file a bug on gaim, so it's likely not going to get any official attention (which was more what I was aiming to bring across ...). Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/gr5trJK6UGDSBKcRAs0XAJ96OAs0jjPGPkBDrTHda+l6ci6lMwCgjgeq RIL4IltHlROtXsnULXFz1Og= =0A+Q -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:37:57 -0400 Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And you should know by now my solution to these > problems is to build my own packages and stick them out on my > website for anyone in the same boat, if that's even necessary in > this case since the gaim guys usually offer Mandrake packages. If the gaim people are so great why did they not code it for the current avaiable apps. For tcl/tk support it requires tcl-8.3 Not the current tcl-8.4. It will not build with gettext-0.12. They offer rpms for mdk-9.1 and rh8 and 9 and will probably offer them for mdk-9.2, but look at the spec they use. It does not even build the damn language files. There are always avenues avaiable for those who wish to upgrade apps beyond that which is included in the distro. Either building it themselves from source, or by acquiring it elsewhere from others. But do not expect it to be added as an update to an already committed distros release. Hell, if anyone wants/needs gaim-0.70 that much they are more than welcome to dl the 9.2/Cooker rpms from my site. BTW, they Do include the language files and are built to mdk specifications. Charles -- The number of computer scientists in a room is inversely proportional to the number of bugs in their code. - Mandrake Linux 9.2 on PurpleDragon Kernel-2.4.22-10.tmb.4mdkenterprise http://www.eslrahc.com - pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
On Monday 06 October 2003 05:59, Buchan Milne wrote: > Oh, so the decision on whether there should be an official > update is base on whether it affects Rob. Nah, Rob's decision on whether to advocate such a thing is based on whether it affects Rob. Linux owns the server market from where I sit, so all I care about is desktop user experience. But now I see you're taking this personally despite not being the target of my advocacy (not being a Mandrake employee), so I'll drop it. >I see you haven't bothered to file a bug. So, I guess it's not >that important to you ... Can't file a cooker bug if you don't run cooker, and at the moment I don't. And you should know by now my solution to these problems is to build my own packages and stick them out on my website for anyone in the same boat, if that's even necessary in this case since the gaim guys usually offer Mandrake packages. None of this helps mainstream reviewers who are coming from Windows, though. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the 9.2 reviews look like. Rob
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob wrote: > On Sunday 05 October 2003 16:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>So, when we couldn't connect to a samba (2.0.6) server from a >>Windows 2000 machine, did we isssue an update to 2.0.7 for all >>the current releases? > > > Had connecting from win2k worked in previous Samba releases? I > don't think it had. > > >>When you can't connect from any currently supported Mandrake >>release to a Windows 2003 Server, did we ship an update to >>samba-3.0.0 for all the current releases? > > > Has connecting to win2k3 worked in previous Samba releases? I > don't think it has. > Did connecting to the AIM via the new protocol work in previous versions of Gaim? I don't think it did. These issues are identical. Someone made a change on some server you potentially have no control over, and you need a newer client to access it. It doesn't matter whether the server in question is in your corporate server room, or on some other network, the issue remains the same. An upgrade of AIM's server software is the same issue as an upgrade of the server software on a corporate file server. > >>No. Because they are feature enhancements. > > When something stops working, and then starts working again, it's > called a bug fix. Only if the conditions haven't changed. >>I hope you meant "working" and not "current". > > > I mean "whatever version is current as I write this," because in > current releases the problem has apparently been fixed. > > I can't really argue about the rest, because I use Gaim to > conduct business nearly as much as my mobile phone but I haven't > had any troubles connecting to Windows servers using Samba due > to 2k3's slow adoption. Oh, so the decision on whether there should be an official update is base on whether it affects Rob. I guess the fact that I have been helping users to access Windows2003 servers for the past 3 months with builds of samba3 has no bearing then? I guess the fact that we couldn't serve Windows 2000 clients without an unofficial update for samba for 6 months on Mandrake 7.1 has no bearing? I see you haven't bothered to file a bug. So, I guess it's not that important to you ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/gT0IrJK6UGDSBKcRApI8AJ4rGOT+Sog4Sfg6g3+QkrN83ADD/ACglVos BpnMTLP81TJmTYJi4sqUvjI= =ybZV -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
On Sunday 05 October 2003 16:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > So, when we couldn't connect to a samba (2.0.6) server from a > Windows 2000 machine, did we isssue an update to 2.0.7 for all > the current releases? Had connecting from win2k worked in previous Samba releases? I don't think it had. > When you can't connect from any currently supported Mandrake > release to a Windows 2003 Server, did we ship an update to > samba-3.0.0 for all the current releases? Has connecting to win2k3 worked in previous Samba releases? I don't think it has. > No. Because they are feature enhancements. When something stops working, and then starts working again, it's called a bug fix. > I hope you meant "working" and not "current". I mean "whatever version is current as I write this," because in current releases the problem has apparently been fixed. I can't really argue about the rest, because I use Gaim to conduct business nearly as much as my mobile phone but I haven't had any troubles connecting to Windows servers using Samba due to 2k3's slow adoption. Rob
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
> On Sunday 05 October 2003 15:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> > If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO: >> Sorry, but where is the bug report for this buggy software? >> This is not a bug (to my understanding), but a feature >> enhancement (if we're talking about gaim). > > If by "feature enhancement" you mean "support protocols that > worked previously but were broken in the shipped version", I > guess you're right ;) But in the rest of the world, that's > called a bug fix. So, when we couldn't connect to a samba (2.0.6) server from a Windows 2000 machine, did we isssue an update to 2.0.7 for all the current releases? When you can't connect from any currently supported Mandrake release to a Windows 2003 Server, did we ship an update to samba-3.0.0 for all the current releases? (There was an issue with Windows XP also, but I forget now if it affected scenarios besides when using WindowsXP in a samba domain). No. Because they are feature enhancements. So, clearly there needs to be a better policy on issuing updates. If we're going to ship gaim to work with a propreitary communication protocol to allow interoperability with the latest changes, should we not ship updates to the most used corporate file/print-serving protocol to allow interoperability with the latest version? > Basically, if a current gaim isn't available *from Mandrake* for > the current Mandrake distribution, whether as an update or > whatever, then Mandrake can't claim to support any widely used > instant messaging protocols except Oscar (AIM). I hope you meant "working" and not "current". If Vince was wasting his time updating to the latest release of each messaging client for every distro, he wouldn't have time for security updates. > I know there are a lot > of people who would say "good riddance", but with > Mandrake's focus on the desktop, it looks bad. Make all the > excuses you want, but some reviews are bound to reflect this > decision. What decision. We are all speculating. AFAIK, no-one has filed a bug. The maintainer may not care or even know there is a problem. > The question is whether Mandrake's current position is solid > enough to allow reviewers the opportunity to say "this distro > claims to be a desktop operating system, but I couldn't even > sign onto my instant messenger service." Chronic IRC users are > prone to not seeing instant messaging as a core desktop > application like office and browser, but normal users do and so > do many reviewers. My point of view is that if it's not mainly used for business purposes, then it isn't a core desktop application. Maybe the reviewer will complain that they could not print to their new shiny Windows2003 server, when the new Redhat/Fedora release can? But that's my point of view. If you want an official point of view, make it an official problem (by filing a bug report). Has anyone filed a bug? Has any one been testing it? Has someone looked through the changes from the previous version to see if there could be any potential problems with the update? Finally,didn't we know about this problem in advance? Did anyone do forward planning for this? Regards, Buchan * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
On Sunday 05 October 2003 15:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO: > Sorry, but where is the bug report for this buggy software? > This is not a bug (to my understanding), but a feature > enhancement (if we're talking about gaim). If by "feature enhancement" you mean "support protocols that worked previously but were broken in the shipped version", I guess you're right ;) But in the rest of the world, that's called a bug fix. Basically, if a current gaim isn't available *from Mandrake* for the current Mandrake distribution, whether as an update or whatever, then Mandrake can't claim to support any widely used instant messaging protocols except Oscar (AIM). I know there are a lot of people who would say "good riddance", but with Mandrake's focus on the desktop, it looks bad. Make all the excuses you want, but some reviews are bound to reflect this decision. The question is whether Mandrake's current position is solid enough to allow reviewers the opportunity to say "this distro claims to be a desktop operating system, but I couldn't even sign onto my instant messenger service." Chronic IRC users are prone to not seeing instant messaging as a core desktop application like office and browser, but normal users do and so do many reviewers. Rob
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
> On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 17:05, Thomas Backlund wrote: >> > > People will start saying: "... but you updated that package ...", >> and "this package adds or modifies this or that feature that is >> needed... if we don't have it I consider it's broken... and we >> can't have a "broken" distrib..." >> > >> > Now we're comparing OpenOffice with Gaim... What these bugs are for >> Gaim, is "oowriter and oocalc won't start" for OpenOffice. (Which >> actually happened to me in RC2, but happened to be fixed in time). >> I.e. buggy enough to make the package unusable for most people. >> >> Maybe a bad comparision, but the point is that different users has >> different opinions of what's important to get as an update > > You are right there... And I am experienced enough with linux to compile > gaim from scratch if I have to... But I don't want to go back to this > specific case at all.. > > If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO: Sorry, but where is the bug report for this buggy software? This is not a bug (to my understanding), but a feature enhancement (if we're talking about gaim). > > 1) Provide upgrades for everyone This is done for real bugs and for security vulnerabilities. > 2) Make very clear to "download" users that updates are available for > the software but they are only available after registration. This is > what is said to happen now, but I haven't seen such thing. Sure, I can > to register, but what I am missing is the "ah I have to > register, so these bugs are fixed and I get these advantages" feeling. Well, that doesn't change which software should be placed where, only the initial message that should appear in the first time wizard. I am running it now, and it says "If you have an internet connection you'll be able to refister for Mandrake Online Services" (which, granted, is a bit vague, but then MandrakeClub isn't just updated packages ..). > 3) Don't ship the software. Or leave it in contrib ;-) > >> > > today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... >> > > >> > > and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead >> you will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs >> > >> > For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS >> service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, >> for they fix bugs. >> >> Yeah, but we don't have to try to be as "bad" as them... ;-) >> and remember that all those customers (atleast the legal ones) has >> already >> paid for their product, something that you can compare to the club >> account ( see below...) > > I do not completely agree with you on this one. In the Redmond case you > pay, install, get annoyed with the bugs, update. In the mandrake case > you download, install, get annoyed with the bugs, must pay, update. No, you don't pay for bugs. Bugfixes are provided via updates. If you want feature enhancements without doing the work yourself, you can join MandrakeClub. > Basic buisiness rule: annoyed or angry customers are reluctant to pay, > especially when they are not sure that all their problems will be fixed > after they paid. And, if all their needs are satisfied without paying, why would they pay? (Not that I advocate an extortion system where you can only get a functional system if you are a member, but there must be something of value which you can only get by paying ...). > >> and IMHO that's something that people don't really like either >> especially on slow dial-up lines... > > Very true. But the fact a part of the people have a slow connection > (none at all) shouldn't be a reason why not to provide updates. It's a > good reason to provide a "Download most critical fixes only" option. And "critical fixes only" are in the official updates. > >> >> > > So IMHO here comes the power of an Club membership..., >> > > >> > > join the club and you will most likely get the downloads there... >> and all are happy... (you get what you pay for... remember...) >> > >> > You say, become a club member. Ok, fair. Problem is, when I Mr newbe >> user download Mandrake, I see a buggy distro, and no updates. In the >> first place, I see nowhere that many problems are solved if I pay >> (and I'm reluctant to pay, for Mandrake is buggy, and who tells me >> that my problems are gone after I paid ?), in the second place, >> after I paid, the manual how to get the club updates in, is >> practically non existent (I found something deep in a forum once). >> >> If you have a club account, after the installation, upon first boot, >> the Fist Time Wizard will help you set up your Club account, and >> automatically add the club download source to the installer, and so >> you will be able to upgrde... > > Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a > clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual > screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished > hacking, the first time wizzard has lon
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
Robert L martin kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika Sunnuntai 05 Lokakuu 2003 19:03): > > OTOH many of the users of Download Edition does not ever buy a package or > > become a club member anyway, wich means it does not generate any income > > there either... > > And this is where you need to mkae sure that 99.999% of the packages (by > useage) work the first time. > and this would be better if people got involved in the beta process, so that bugs could be fixed before we go into deep freeze and not like now when many try with the last RC, and find a bug, and reports it when the master ISOs has been sent... > Speaking as one of those D/l users i say > MAKE A DISTRO WORTH PAYING FOR AND I WILL PAY FOR IT!! > this is a catch22, ... if more would pay, mdk would be able to pay more employees, wich would make an even better distro, more QA, more testing, more h/w, wich would sell better... and how do you define "A DISTRO WORTH PAYING FOR" ... if you dig long enough you will always find some bug thast annoys you, does that mean it's not worth paying for Or as it reminds me of an employee in a company I used to work for... He complained about getting to low salary, and said if they would pay him better, he would work harder... >From the management I heard the complaints about him being slow, so they had no reason to pay him more... So who is right and who is wrong? When both think they are right and the other part is wrong... Does the management have too high expectations, or is it the employee that thinks he's better than he actually is? But, as always... everyone has to choose for themselves what to do, as no one can force you to decide one way or another... It's the ultimate freedom of choice... > Speaking of which will the dvd make christmas? AFAIK they should, ... -- Regards Thomas
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
Jos Hulzink kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika Sunnuntai 05 Lokakuu 2003 19:04): > On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 17:05, Thomas Backlund wrote: > > > > People will start saying: "... but you updated that package ...", > > > > and "this package adds or modifies this or that feature that is > > > > needed... if we don't have it I consider it's broken... and we can't > > > > have a "broken" distrib..." > > > > > > Now we're comparing OpenOffice with Gaim... What these bugs are for > > > Gaim, is "oowriter and oocalc won't start" for OpenOffice. (Which > > > actually happened to me in RC2, but happened to be fixed in time). I.e. > > > buggy enough to make the package unusable for most people. > > > > Maybe a bad comparision, but the point is that different users has > > different opinions of what's important to get as an update > > You are right there... And I am experienced enough with linux to compile > gaim from scratch if I have to... But I don't want to go back to this > specific case at all.. > > If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO: > > 1) Provide upgrades for everyone This is already done for security and bugs... > 2) Make very clear to "download" users that updates are available for the > software but they are only available after registration. This is what is > said to happen now, but I haven't seen such thing. Sure, I can > to register, but what I am missing is the "ah I have to register, so these > bugs are fixed and I get these advantages" feeling. This need to be better adverised... > 3) Don't ship the software. > Now this is an interesting one... Once again, where do you draw the line if it's considered to buggy or not...? Just to make an example: - There are people that can't get X to run properly/or not at all on their system..., so lets not ship it at all ;-) ( Yeah, it's an overkill... but you get the point) It's always difficult to decide what to ship and what not to... > > > > today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... > > > > > > > > and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead you > > > > will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs > > > > > > For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS > > > service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, > > > for they fix bugs. > > > > Yeah, but we don't have to try to be as "bad" as them... ;-) > > and remember that all those customers (atleast the legal ones) has > > already paid for their product, something that you can compare to the > > club account ( see below...) > > I do not completely agree with you on this one. In the Redmond case you > pay, install, get annoyed with the bugs, update. In the mandrake case you > download, install, get annoyed with the bugs, must pay, update. Basic > buisiness rule: annoyed or angry customers are reluctant to pay, especially > when they are not sure that all their problems will be fixed after they > paid. > Well, you dont have to pay for normal security or bugfixes, only for enchancements.. > > and IMHO that's something that people don't really like either especially > > on slow dial-up lines... > > Very true. But the fact a part of the people have a slow connection (none > at all) shouldn't be a reason why not to provide updates. It's a good > reason to provide a "Download most critical fixes only" option. > True, but the current system already supports "Download most critical fixes only" as you can choose what to download or not... > > > > So IMHO here comes the power of an Club membership..., > > > > > > > > join the club and you will most likely get the downloads there... > > > > and all are happy... (you get what you pay for... remember...) > > > > > > You say, become a club member. Ok, fair. Problem is, when I Mr newbe > > > user download Mandrake, I see a buggy distro, and no updates. In the > > > first place, I see nowhere that many problems are solved if I pay (and > > > I'm reluctant to pay, for Mandrake is buggy, and who tells me that my > > > problems are gone after I paid ?), in the second place, after I paid, > > > the manual how to get the club updates in, is practically non existent > > > (I found something deep in a forum once). > > > > If you have a club account, after the installation, upon first boot, the > > Fist Time Wizard will help you set up your Club account, and > > automatically add the club download source to the installer, and so you > > will be able to upgrde... > > Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a > clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual > screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished hacking, > the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed (and me > too). > This is actually something that could be better..., but how do you get people reminded of it without annoying them...? > > > Users are willing to pay for something good, not for something bad that
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
BTW, most (ie >95% of) internet subscribers in South Africa are on dialup. We have about 3000 DSL lines total available in the country ... and I expect there are many countries in a similar situation, where just adding OpenOffice.org to updates would require users to run a > 6 hour update ... and even in the US its not like you can just pop into RadioShack and get broadband service (yet). most of the time its a matter of wading past ads by the meter to get to the truth (and you may not find it even then)
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy
OTOH many of the users of Download Edition does not ever buy a package or become a club member anyway, wich means it does not generate any income there either... And this is where you need to mkae sure that 99.999% of the packages (by useage) work the first time. Speaking as one of those D/l users i say MAKE A DISTRO WORTH PAYING FOR AND I WILL PAY FOR IT!! Speaking of which will the dvd make christmas?
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 17:05, Thomas Backlund wrote: > > > People will start saying: "... but you updated that package ...", > > > and "this package adds or modifies this or that feature that is > > > needed... if we don't have it I consider it's broken... and we can't > > > have a "broken" distrib..." > > > > Now we're comparing OpenOffice with Gaim... What these bugs are for Gaim, > > is "oowriter and oocalc won't start" for OpenOffice. (Which actually > > happened to me in RC2, but happened to be fixed in time). I.e. buggy > > enough to make the package unusable for most people. > > Maybe a bad comparision, but the point is that different users has > different opinions of what's important to get as an update You are right there... And I am experienced enough with linux to compile gaim from scratch if I have to... But I don't want to go back to this specific case at all.. If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO: 1) Provide upgrades for everyone 2) Make very clear to "download" users that updates are available for the software but they are only available after registration. This is what is said to happen now, but I haven't seen such thing. Sure, I can to register, but what I am missing is the "ah I have to register, so these bugs are fixed and I get these advantages" feeling. 3) Don't ship the software. > > > today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... > > > > > > and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead you > > > will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs > > > > For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS > > service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, for > > they fix bugs. > > Yeah, but we don't have to try to be as "bad" as them... ;-) > and remember that all those customers (atleast the legal ones) has already > paid for their product, something that you can compare to the club account > ( see below...) I do not completely agree with you on this one. In the Redmond case you pay, install, get annoyed with the bugs, update. In the mandrake case you download, install, get annoyed with the bugs, must pay, update. Basic buisiness rule: annoyed or angry customers are reluctant to pay, especially when they are not sure that all their problems will be fixed after they paid. > and IMHO that's something that people don't really like either especially > on slow dial-up lines... Very true. But the fact a part of the people have a slow connection (none at all) shouldn't be a reason why not to provide updates. It's a good reason to provide a "Download most critical fixes only" option. > > > > So IMHO here comes the power of an Club membership..., > > > > > > join the club and you will most likely get the downloads there... > > > and all are happy... (you get what you pay for... remember...) > > > > You say, become a club member. Ok, fair. Problem is, when I Mr newbe user > > download Mandrake, I see a buggy distro, and no updates. In the first > > place, I see nowhere that many problems are solved if I pay (and I'm > > reluctant to pay, for Mandrake is buggy, and who tells me that my > > problems are gone after I paid ?), in the second place, after I paid, the > > manual how to get the club updates in, is practically non existent (I > > found something deep in a forum once). > > If you have a club account, after the installation, upon first boot, the > Fist Time Wizard will help you set up your Club account, and automatically > add the club download source to the installer, and so you will be able to > upgrde... Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished hacking, the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed (and me too). > > Users are willing to pay for something good, not for something bad that > > mabye gets better after they paid. To quote you: "join the club and you > > will most likely get the downloads there". I don't see whether that is > > true, so I should just pay and hope ? Sorry, that's not the way customers > > think in 2003. > > I made a Bad choice of words... > most packages that have had a high demand has been built and uploaded > to Club AFAIK... I have been a club member for half a year now, and manage to find my way trough the download section. (www interface that is, the urpmi interface is easy, but I try to look as a non-member now) All I ment to say is that customers want to see what they pay for, and the entrance to the club downloads (for non club members) isn't exactly paved with marble... Mr Newbie downloads 9.2, installs 9.2, clicks trough the first time wizzard, skipping the registration for he first wants to see whether he likes it, and gets no clue anymore that the bugs are solved / updates are available if he is registered. It would be nice if Mandrake
Re: [Cooker] Re: Mandrake 9.2 update policy (was: gaim 0.69 and 0.70 are out )
> Kirjoitit viestissäsi (lähetysaika Sunnuntai 05 Lokakuu 2003 17:28): >> On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 14:55, Thomas Backlund wrote: >> > Jos Hulzink kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika Sunnuntai 05 Lokakuu >> 2003 >> > today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... >> > >> > and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead >> you will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs >> >> For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS >> service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, >> for they fix bugs. >> I guess that users download the updates so happily that their machines are never more than a week behind? This is why we never have worms for Windows that congest the whole internet when the fix has been available through WindowsUpdate for 3 weeks? Also, remember that WindowsXPSP1 broke virual memory management, which is why they had to issue SP1a => 200MB+ download if you were keeping up. > > Yeah, but we don't have to try to be as "bad" as them... ;-) > and remember that all those customers (atleast the legal ones) has > already > paid for their product, something that you can compare to the club > account ( see below...) > > and IMHO that's something that people don't really like either > especially on slow dial-up lines... > Also, note that reviewers often take the installation time, and compare the whole distro on this. So, if they were to do an installation with updates, and we had OpenOffice.org (~ 100MB update for a single locale if the whole package were updated) in updates, that would easily double the installation time ... Also, it might lead reviewers to think the update hadn't worked. So, there had better be very good reasons for updating large packages. BTW, most (ie >95% of) internet subscribers in South Africa are on dialup. We have about 3000 DSL lines total available in the country ... and I expect there are many countries in a similar situation, where just adding OpenOffice.org to updates would require users to run a > 6 hour update ... Regards, Buchan * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
