Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

I am clearly (to you at least) ignorant on these subjects because I
haven't read the 2 books you have pointed out. 


You haven’t read much of anything, at least not in this field. You
haven’t even read what I say very closely. I recommended those two books
as a good place for the beginner to start. They certainly aren’t the
whole story. But they’re a good place to start.


You have neatly  tried to discredit all my questions by simply accusing
me of being ignorant. 

I didn’t have to accuse you. You have demonstrated quite on your own
that you’re ignorant, at least about this field. That’s nothing to be
ashamed of. Everyone’s ignorant of something. But to willfully stay
ignorant is shameful. To pretend you are not ignorant is more shameful,
still. 



You fail to answer my questions however, such as:

If modern Wicca is the direct incarnation of an old or ancient religion
(as it's adherent's claim), where is the evidence for this?

Like I said, you apparently don’t read what I say very closely. I told
you where to start looking it up.  Go look it it up.

Personally, I’m not convinced one way or the other. A solid case can be
made either way.  Some Wiccan traditions are quite obviously attempts at
reconstruction. Other traditions, especially hereditary traditions, we
can’t be so sure about. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,
ever. This is particularly true  when we are investigating a crime,
particularly a capital crime. Witchcraft was a capital crime for
centuries. We can hardly expect its practitioners not to have hidden the
evidence.  Written documents by primary sources about organized crime
are hard to come by, too. Does that mean there is no Mob?


Are there any primary written sources to prove this? Your answer is no.


There are, as I have said repeatedly, some. However, they are not, in
and of themselves, sufficient to be conclusive. But I said that already.
You must have skimmed that page.



Are there any historical artifacts which prove this?

Not beyond a shadow of a doubt, no. But we don’t have Jimmy Hoffa’s
body, either. Does that mean he didn’t die, or that he never lived?
Historical documents by primary sources that prove that the Norse
reached North America are sorely lacking, too. Nonetheless, artifacts at
l’Anse-aux-Meadows present conclusive evidence that they did.


Is there any evidence of the existence of items so beloved of modern
Witches such as the Book of Shadows or  the Athame knife,  (snip) being
around before the 1950s? The answer is no.

That depends on who you believe. Some say yes. Some say no.

which all witches are supposed to possess,

If you believe that all witches possess, or believe, the same thing(s),
you are sadly mistaken. These people are at least as varied in their
beliefs and practices as are Christians, Buddhists or Muslims.  Some
witches never write anything down about witchcraft because, so they
claim, that’s how they were taught to survive. For the same reason, many
witches even today, intentionally use household utensils as Tools. It’s
easier to deny you are a witch if nothing in your house looks like
evidence.



 Previous religions are irrelevant if they do not provide a clear link
to the current Wiccan religion. You may have forgotten but  the original
contention was that Wiccans are trying to pass off their modern religion
as an ancient religion with a long tradition.

The evidence is overwhelming: Wicca is contains elements of  ancient
religion with a very, very long tradition. This is not in contention.
What is in contention is whether or not that tradition is unbroken.
We’ll probably never know. But then, we’re not entirely sure who shot
JFK, and that is within the living memory of nearly half of us.
History, especially the history of crime, is sketchy at best.



These claims are bunk. 


Perhaps they are. Perhaps they are not. I don’t know and neither do you.
The data so far are insufficient to reach a valid conclusion one way or
the other. 

A solid case can be made that Christianity, as practiced today, has
little if anything in common with Christianity as practiced two thousand
years ago. An absolute case can be made that a considerable portion of
Christian dogma is based on hearsay, and a priori assumptions. Does that
make the rest of it bunk?



The 'golden age' when women ruled the Earth and matriachy was
predominant is also, by the way, bunk.

You’re setting up a straw man here. You must be getting desperate. I
never once said there was a “ 'golden age' when women ruled the Earth
and matriachy was predominant.” Why? Because there was no such thing.
There certainly were, and still are, matriarchal societies, but that’s a
separate issue.

What there was, was not a matriarchal “golden age,” but an age when
partnership and not domination was the dominant social paradigm. The
ubiquity of egalitarian grave goods and the complete lack of weapons and
fortifications, combined with the numerous remarkable advances in

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Prudence L. Kuhn" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 June, this is an excellent posting.  I think that there was a novel, I think
 it's name was "The Cry and The Covenant," that detailed the so called
 "doctors" taking great pride in going from the examination of corpses to the
 examination of women about to give birth.  It's been a long time since I read
 it, but I should think it would have been enough to take some of the stuffing
 out of the shirts of many in the medical profession.

It was something that was drilled into us when I took nursing classes...to impress on 
us the necessity of
washing our hands between patients.  Even though I never went on to become a nurse, it 
was ingrained in me
enough to make it a point to pay attention to whether various levels of medical 
personnel wash their hands
before examining me.

Routinely, nurses do.  It's the rare doctor who does, and I make it a point to demand 
that they wash their
hands first before touching me.  The doctors always act surprised when I ask, but not 
one has ever objected,
and they sheepishly comply, as they KNOW they just violated a major tenet of medicine 
that was drilled into
them when they were first-year students...


June

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Prudence L. Kuhn" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Take two valium and rest.

Don't even need a prescription.  Every healthfood store carries valerian, which is 
what Valium is based on...

Some 'real' scientist/medico took note of the "old wives tale" of wise women that 
valerian root calmed nerves,
studied its properties, and came up with a synthetic substitute which could be made in 
the lab and sold for
big bucks.

A good many of our modern pharmaceuticals are based on the natural substances those 
'quacks and faith healers'
used.  And there is a major push of pharmaceutical companies to go into the Amazonian 
rainforest to try to
find new plants which may have various medicinal uses; to this end, they utilize the 
local witch doctors and
wise women, who know what plants in their area are useful for this purpose.


June

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 01/08/2001 9:48:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The answer lies in good part to the fact that the wise women demanded
cleanliness...they may have cast an aura
 of spirituality and ritual about it, but the bottom line was that they were
practicing antiseptic control long
 before it became the accepted norm amongst 'learned men of science'.  In
fact, the first 'real' doctor who
 suggested that doctors should wash their hands between patients was roundly
criticized and hooted by his peers
 as believing in 'old wives tales'... 

June, this is an excellent posting.  I think that there was a novel, I think
it's name was "The Cry and The Covenant," that detailed the so called
"doctors" taking great pride in going from the examination of corpses to the
examination of women about to give birth.  It's been a long time since I read
it, but I should think it would have been enough to take some of the stuffing
out of the shirts of many in the medical profession.

Prudy

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 01/08/2001 12:26:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 However, none of this alters the fact that, with the exception of a few hapy
co-incidences, the types of cures offered by 'Wise Women' etc., consisted
mainly of prayers, invoking of angels or devils, talismans, potions with no
beneficial effect, strange rituals (animal sacrifice, burying potatoes in the
light of the moon, unlikely aphrodisiacs) etc. I am sure there are numerous
practices which have a negative effect on subjects practiced by WW, but which
aren't much touted by their fanclub. 

Take two valium and rest.  Come back in two weeks.  Same kind of witchcraft
thing.  Burying a potato by the light of the moon is just as effective, and a
lot cheaper.  Prudy

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Johannes Schmidt III" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 'Wise Women' etc. were nothing more than the quacks and
faith healers we have today. There is no evidence that they
were part of an organised religion or that they worshipped
any particular non-Christian deity.

Organized or not, those 'wise women' of old were far from 'quacks and faith healers'.  
In fact, if you knew
ANYTHING about the history of medicine, you'd know that the term 'quacks and faith 
healers' would be more
aptly applied to 'learned' men of 'science' who practiced medicine at the time when 
these 'wise women'
practiced their own brand of home-grown doctoring...

There was a good reason most women of reason preferred to give birth at home with 
these wise women in
attendance, rather than put the fate of themselves and their soon-to-be-born infants 
in the hands of 'learned
men of science' at the local hospital...namely, because most women who gave birth in a 
hospital died, as did
their infants.  The rate of death was much lower for those women who stayed at home 
and entrusted their care
to the ministrations of the local 'wise women'...

The answer lies in good part to the fact that the wise women demanded 
cleanliness...they may have cast an aura
of spirituality and ritual about it, but the bottom line was that they were practicing 
antiseptic control long
before it became the accepted norm amongst 'learned men of science'.  In fact, the 
first 'real' doctor who
suggested that doctors should wash their hands between patients was roundly criticized 
and hooted by his peers
as believing in 'old wives tales'...

And those old wives also had a knowledge base of pharmaceuticals that later became 
synthesized in the 20th
century as standard medicines.  One case in point was the practice of boiling the bark 
of the White Willow,
and using the tea for aches and pains and inflammations.  It was routinely dismissed 
for centuries as "an old
wives tale", until a company studied the components of the White Willow tea, decided 
the active ingredient was
salycic acid, made a synthetic of it and marketed it in pill form under the name 
'aspirin'.

To this day, no one knows why aspirin is as effective as it is (because it hasn't been 
worth getting the
funding to mount clinical trials of it), and it probably wouldn't make it to market 
today if it didn't benefit
from the 'grandfather' clause written into the government regulations regarding 
pharmaceuticals.

Another case in point was the practice of wise women in the British Isles to wash 
wounds with a certain
decoction made of local herbs, and then binding the wound with a piece of moldy bread. 
 This too was dismissed
by 'learned men of science' as an old wives tale, and in fact attempts were made to 
discourage it, since these
'learned men' couldn't fathom how putting something 'dirty' like moldy bread on a 
wound could be beneficial.

One of these 'learned men' actually DID look at cases treated in such a manner, and 
concluded that for some
reason the patients indeed usually recovered nicely, at a much higher rate than 
patients with similar wounds
treated in the usual manner by 'learned men of science' at 'respected' hospitals.

But this was in the early 19th century, and this doctor was roundly laughed at by his 
colleagues for accepting
unscientific 'old wives tales', instead of sticking to 'known science'...

Later, in the 20th century, it was found that the decoction of herbs these wise women 
used had antiseptic
properties, and of course that moldy piece of bread was full of penicillin...


June

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

The lethal nature of medicine in centuries past is well documented, however the 
effectiveness of traditional medicines in some areas is/was little better.

Your points about midwifery are quite true, this is an area which women have always 
been pre-eminent.

However, none of this alters the fact that, with the exception of a few hapy 
co-incidences, the types of cures offered by 'Wise Women' etc., consisted mainly of 
prayers, invoking of angels or devils, talismans, potions with no beneficial effect, 
strange rituals (animal sacrifice, burying potatoes in the light of the moon, unlikely 
aphrodisiacs) etc. I am sure there are numerous practices which have a negative effect 
on subjects practiced by WW, but which aren't much touted by their fanclub.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

Merlin

It’s from the Welsh, “Merddin,”  who was a “derwydd,” or Druid.
According to Graves (White Goddess, p. 39), “An early Cornish poem
describes . . . the Druid Merddin . . .”

This should be distinguished from “merlin,” a small falcon (Falco
columbarius) of northern regions, which has predominantly dark plumage
and a  black-striped tail. It is also called pigeon hawk. It’s name is
Middle English from Anglo-Norman “merilun,” from Old French
“esmerillon,” diminutive of “esmeril” of Germanic origin.


You're quite right. I had never heard of this person before you
mentioned 'her' 

This is the very best reason possible for you to not pass judgment on
her work, at least in public where people can call you on it.



(and here was poor ignorant, historically illiterate I 


You said it.


thinking that Merlin was a man's name). 

So are Lee, Dana, and Evelyn.



Let me know what book/s has she written and I will look it up. 


The best place to start with Stone is:

  When God Was a Woman
  ISBN: 015696158X

Try to get an edition with the original illustrations (i.e. not the
Barnes and Noble edition), as the archeological evidence she employs is
far more compelling when viewed than when described. 

Then read:

  Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe, 6500-3500 B.C. : 
  Myths, and Cult Images  
  
  by Marija Gimbutas
  ISBN: 0520046552 


To be honest, she sounds like some sort of New Age fruitcake who knits
her own yoghurt and probably writes books making just as much sense. But
I'm just making assumptions.

Indeed you are, and with nothing whatsoever to base them on but her name
and subject matter. This indicates a profound lack intelligence on your
part. I’m not saying you don’t have any intelligence. You may. But you
certainly aren’t putting it to use.

Science is based on objectivity. If you can’t approach a new subject
with an open mind, you can’t possibly hope to learn anything. Minds, as
the saying goes, are like parachutes; they only work when open.

However, I must say, “knits her own yoghurt” is a great line. I fully
intend to expropriate  it. 



I won't answer that, as I suspect you are being flippant.

Puns, on the other hand, are the lowest form of wit. Come now, you can
do better than that.



 What's my life got to do with anything?

It’s a prime example of how stories can be true without having been
written down. Alas, the vast, overwhelming majority, in fact virtually
all, stories are never written down. There isn’t enough paper.



Yes, but similarly because something isn't written down makes it far
less likely to be true, just as something which is written down is more
likely to be true.

Prove it. Be specific. Cite references and their qv.

OK then, what (in brief) physical evidence do they provide which I am
ignorant of? 

Read the books I recommended. At the very least, look at the pictures.



Do they have letters from one witch to another from anytime pre 1950? 

Come now. Who would be stupid enough to commit to writing an admission
that they had committed a crime, particularly during the centuries long
period when that crime carried a death sentence. 



Have they found and translated some witches texts from middle ages or
ancient greece which  provide a clear link to modern wiccans?

No. But then how could a text from the Middle Ages or ancient Greece
provide a clear link? An unbroken chain of texts could perhaps do this,
assuming they could all be proven valid, but isolated texts cannot. What
the texts from the Middle Ages and ancient Greece do provide is strong
circumstantial evidence. In modern courts of law, people are routinely
condemned to death with less evidence. Just because evidence is
circumstantial doesn’t make it less valid evidence. The proverbial
“smoking gun” itself is, by definition,  circumstantial evidence.


  The wiccans have nil in the way of evidence.

That you know about. But then you don’t know very much about the field
at all.



This is nonsense. 'Maybe' there is evidence. I admit it's possible, but
I very much doubt it. I notice that you aren't exactly eager to provide
any of this evidence from your clearly greater knowledge of this subject
than us mere mortals. Please do enlighten us.

I recommended a couple books. You ignored me. I just did it again. Are
you going to ignore me again?

  There are no digs for wiccan artefacts because there are none. 

How do you know if you refuse to even read the literature of the field?



If you can stop criticizing me (for I've obviously struck a nerve)
perhaps you can point me to the error in my beliefs, rather than making
all osrts of wild assumptions.

I have, repeatedly. I will repeat. (1.) You are willfully ignorant. (2.)
You say you are not.


Again, this 'Merlin Stone' sounds like a new age lunatic. 

How do you know if you have never read her books? And why should we we
take seriously anything at all you say, since you repeatedly and
unashamedly prattle on about things that by your own 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Jayson R. Jones]

-Caveat Lector-

There has been much research that shows the power of the mind over the
body.  Some of the better known are the studies using cancer patients.
The ceremony was part of the cure.  The patient believes that the
medicine will work and therefore it does.  An advancement of the Placebo
Effect.  Your mind can make you sick and your mind can heal your body.
Ceremony is the delivery vehicle.  Makes no difference if it is White
Witchcraft, VooDoo, Christian Prayer or any other ceremony; if you
believe it will cure you then it probably will help you.  Combine that
with knowledge of natural medicine and you have a pretty good medical
system for most patients.  We know that brain surgery took place at least
5000 years ago, and the patients survived. (Healed areas in anciet skulls
prove this).  We have physical evidence of the use of many herbs that go
back 35,000 years, and they are the chemical basis for much of what we
have today.  The use of wine, beer and marijuana can be traced back at
least 8000 years, and are today being understood as good for you in
moderate amounts.   It is the belief, not what is believed, that has
power.
On Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:20:43 - Johannes Schmidt III
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
-Caveat Lector-

The lethal nature of medicine in centuries past is well documented,
however the effectiveness of traditional medicines in some areas
is/was little better.

Your points about midwifery are quite true, this is an area which
women have always been pre-eminent.

However, none of this alters the fact that, with the exception of a
few hapy co-incidences, the types of cures offered by 'Wise Women'
etc., consisted mainly of prayers, invoking of angels or devils,
talismans, potions with no beneficial effect, strange rituals (animal
sacrifice, burying potatoes in the light of the moon, unlikely
aphrodisiacs) etc. I am sure there are numerous practices which have a
negative effect on subjects practiced by WW, but which aren't much
touted by their fanclub.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

All your sophistry in these series of emails can be summed up very quickly:

I am clearly (to you at least) ignorant on these subjects because I haven't read the 2 
books you have pointed out. You have neatly tried to discredit all my questions by 
simply accusing me of being ignorant. You fail to answer my questions however, such as:

If modern Wicca is the direct incarnation of an old or ancient religion (as it's 
adherent's claim), where is the evidence for this? Are there any primary written 
sources to prove this? Your answer is no. Are there any historical artifacts which 
prove this? Your answer is no. Is there any evidence of the existence of items so 
beloved of modern Witches such as the Book of Shadows or the Athame knife, which all 
witches are supposed to possess, being around before the 1950s? The answer is no.

Previous religions are irrelevant if they do not provide a clear link to the current 
Wiccan religion. You may have forgotten but the original contention was that Wiccans 
are trying to pass off their modern religion as an ancient religion with a long 
tradition. These claims are bunk. The 'golden age' when women ruled the Earth and 
matriachy was predominant is also, by the way, bunk. It is part of the mythology of 
Wiccans, which I find every but as silly as Christians who at least can document where 
their beliefs came from.

I will check out the books you have mentioned, however I am not expecting any great 
scholarship. We can hypothesise about various religions and their possible link to 
modern witchcraft (Animism, Druidism, Greek and Roman Gods, Traditional religions, 
Pre-historic religions etc.). But it is all hypothesis. If there is some clear link 
please spell it out. Don't ask me to go and get a degree in the subject, don't become 
derogatory (which is a good sign that you have no argument) but enlighten us on the 
pre-mid 1950s origins of Witchcraft.

Regards and watch out for those death squads,

Joe.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[YnrChyldzWyld]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Johannes Schmidt III wrote:
Actually, I believe originally the term 'merlin' was used as a title, and only 
became associated as a personal
name due to the Arthurian legends.  Somewhat akin to the names "Don" and "Donna", 
which originally were titles
of Spanish nobility (e.g., "Don Juan", "Donna (or Dona with the squiggle over the 
'n') Maria"), but later were
used as 'Christian' names in and of themselves.

Sure, but the name itself is a 'male' name. Is it French? I don't think it's Hebrew. 
Maybe from Greek?

Since we only see it in the Arthurian legend, presumably the term has a
Celtic basis...

The term originally meant a wise person, like a wizard, irregardless of
the sex of the person referred to; a woman could be a merlin as readily
as a man.

It is only because one particular merlin who happened to be male was made
famous in the Arthurian legend, that people like you came to equate it to
a male Christian name...

I could be called 'Magician Smith'...there is nothing in the name that
should imply my genderit's the same with 'Merlin', it is a title that
has evolved into a genderless name, on the same level as 'Robin' or
'Chris'...


June


*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[YnrChyldzWyld]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Johannes Schmidt III wrote:
Well, if I were to name myself after, say, the Murray River you would
probably assume Murray was a male.

I would presume 'Murray' was someone's last name...geographical sites
such as rivers are usually named for a person's last name rather than
their first

And so the Murray River could just as easily be named for Anne Murray...


it is the monster he is named after- not the lake.
ships and cars (and computers) are only feminine to men, aren't they?

I thought it was an English convention. Do women refer to ships as being male?

I don't refer to them as any sort of gender.  Neither do I assign gender
to cars, computers, or lakes.  I think that is a male affectation...


and anyway- johnnie and willie end in ie and are not at all feminine, willie
in fact is another name for a penis.

I would spell both with a 'y' on the end.

In English, the 'ie' ending is more common for the William nickname, when
applied to either a person or a male sexual organ.  I can't remember when
I have ever seen 'Willy'.

As for the nickname for John, one sees Johnny and Johnnie about equally
(Johnny Carson and Johnnie Cochran)...as one also sees Jimmy and Jimmie
equally...

And one commonly sees the male nicknames "Eddie" and "Robbie"...almost
never see "Eddy" or "Robby"...



June


*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Re (CTRL) Fwd Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 01/06/2001 7:06:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 'Wise Women' etc. were nothing more than the quacks and faith healers we
have today. There is no evidence that they were part of an organised religion
or that they worshipped any particular non-Christian deity 

Perhaps not, but what made Ms. Gouge's story so amusing was that one of the
"White Witches" approached her best friend's father who happened also to be a
vicar.  She told him that it was necessary for a woman to teach a man, and a
man to teach a woman when transferring the powers.  She went to him and told
him that she had looked over all the men in their parish (it appears she
attended church every Sunday), and that he was the most "good."  For that
reason she wished to teach him her spells and incantations.  When he told her
that he could never participate in such things because he was a Christian
minister and was forbidden to do such things, she left in tears.  Apparently
she had never felt the least adversarial to the Christian God.  Since I
consider God omnipotent, I've occasionally wondered about that myself.  Prudy

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

Is 'Merlin Stone' a pagan/Wiccan himself by any chance? 

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it’s irrelevant.

What is relevant is that she’s a historian with a strong background in
archeology and presents a good case well.

But you wouldn’t know that, because you didn’t bothered to read what she
had to say before you started to talk about it.



His name certainly sounds like he is. 

Irrelevant.  My name sounds like a lake monster. Does this mean I have
flippers?



Whether ancient Greek/Roman sects survived the millennia is quite
legitimate, such as research into the Templars theology. However there
are written records, documents, sites, memoirs etc to work with. 

And your own life? Has it been written down? No? Why should I believe
you exist, then, or that anything you say is true?

Just because something is written down does not in and of itself mean it
is true. Just because something is not written down does not, in and of
itself, mean it is not true.

In addition to written records we must consider oral tradition and the
physical evidence in the archeological record. But you would know this
if you had bothered to read Stone and Gimbutas before you started
spouting off about their work.  You haven’t even bothered to look at the
pictures. Yet you are telling what is and is not contained there. Can
you even imagine how incredibly stupid this make you look?


The wiccans have nil in the way of evidence.

Perhaps they do. Perhaps they do not. Either way, you don’t know because
you have not examined what is purported to be the evidence in question.
If you had examined the purported evidence you would perhaps be able to
rebut it a piece at a time. Or perhaps you wouldn’t. But you don’t even
know what the purported evidence is, let alone whether its real or not,
and if it is,  whether their interpretation of it is is valid. This is
appalling scholarship on your part. You have a lot of nerve criticizing
anybody else’s scholarship at all, especially in a field with which you
are so obviously unfamiliar. 

Maybe you’re right. Maybe Stone, Gimbutas, et al are totally wrong. But
maybe you’re wrong. Either way, you’re guessing. That’s not how scholars
do it. Scholars do not draw conclusions  out of thin air, just to suit
some preconceived notion that have. Scholars at the very least read the
literature in field before they draw even the most tentative
conclusions, let alone spout off about them in public. The very best
scholars do their own field research, gather empirical data themselves,
and draw conclusions from that. Gimbutas dug all her life. Have you ever
been on a dig? I doubt it sincerely. You never even bothered to read the
literature. You apparently never even did a preliminary lit. search. And
yet you’re telling us about archeology just as if you actually expected
us to assume that you know what you’re talking about. What is the matter
with you? Do you take us for fools?  

You must. You read, by your own admission, a part of a book by Gardner,
you don’t even know Merlin Stone’s gender, and yet you expect us to
believe you know enough about the history of Goddess worship as to be
qualified to pass judgment on  scholars  in the field.  Do you even know
what the word “scholarship” means? 



But how do you know they didn't do so at some point during the last
2,000 years? 

Because I bothered to research the subject before I started talking
about it.  This is the preferred technique. It doesn’t always work. But
usually it does, and no other technique works ever.



Religion has always been defined by the structures they build, and the
texts they write. The Wiccans have neither.

Some religions are defined by the structures they build, and the texts
they write. Others are not. Some religions are practiced by peoples who
neither  build nor write. Others still are practiced by people who both
build and write, but not within the context of their religion. 

You are apparently only familiar with a handful of religions. There are
hundreds of religions. They vary considerably.  I suggest that you read
up on the subject. Take a couple courses if you have to. Familiarize
yourself with the subject thoroughly enough as to not to appall us with
your ignorance. Then come back here and tell us about it. I cannot
stress too strongly the importance of doing these things in the correct
order.  First learn. Then teach. That’s how it’s done.


No latin or greek books on the subject. 

This is quite simply untrue. There are numerous books on both the
history and dogma of polytheism written in both Latin and Greek. It
appears to have been a favored subject. If you read neither language,
avail yourself of these works in translation. They are available at any
library. If you can’t find them, ask the guy at the desk for help.
That’s what he’s paid for.




Like all religions, the adherents have blind faith, and this is one
aspect of it.

This is also irrelevant. It doesn’t matter why people believe something
is 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Aleisha Saba]

-Caveat Lector-

Johannes as I recall the Knights Templar one of the charges against them
was witchcaft - and of course DeMolay was burn at the stake.

In centuries long past, witches and warlocks were often taken to the
Isle of Man (people called Manx somehow connects to our family
tree).but they, the warlocks and witches, were accused of also being
spies and this is why they were tortured.

Richard Cavendish in his book the Black Arts - if one understands the
hidden messages - was part of the intelligence community as was Sybil
Leek, of Welsh and Irish extraction - who practiced the old religion and
it was good bread and butter money for people in MI6 do not make that
kind of money - psychics often have access to many different secrets and
this is reason they like to get close to the action.

So again Acts 19 linked to space disaster and death of Princess Diana -
if you can see it, believe it even to the book burning..the witch
Endor scared herself when she raised the dead...today drugs are used to
enhance psychic ability but this is nothing new for biblical kings are
alleged to have taken such drug and Indians and their peyote.

Last research I did on Wicca, have their news publications, their leader
had the feds after him and went underground but he sent me most of his
newspapers in which he mentioned tht Dr. Joyce Brothers was replacing
Sybil Leek as head speaker for some people thought it inappropriate for
a witch to be so welcomed.notwithstanding the fact that Brothers
somehow escaped the quiz show scandals of the 50 or 60 period..at
the time Sybil's identity as MI6 (as was her husband) was not known -
Time reported this as did Enquirer and Globe shortly before she died.

Most of her friends were fellow spies for birds of a feather.do
flock together.

What do you think of Acts 19 as related to this and the Apollo the craft
that came to naught - timed date wise to the three astronauts who burned
to death in the space craft..watch words, veiled messages - and know
ye by this craft we had our wealth.so much for flying saucers but
the book burning I find interesting - inasmuch as they had to all be
handwritten -

Saba

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

Is 'Merlin Stone' a pagan/Wiccan himself by any chance?=20

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it=92s irrelevant.

What is relevant is that she=92s a historian with a strong background in
archeology and presents a good case well.

But you wouldn=92t know that, because you didn=92t bothered to read what =
she
had to say before you started to talk about it.

You're quite right. I had never heard of this person before you mentioned 'her' (and 
here was poor ignorant, historically illiterate I thinking that Merlin was a man's 
name). Let me know what book/s has she written and I will look it up. To be honest, 
she sounds like some sort of New Age fruitcake who knits her own yoghurt and probably 
writes books making just as much sense. But I'm just making assumptions.

His name certainly sounds like he is.=20

Irrelevant.  My name sounds like a lake monster. Does this mean I have
flippers?

I won't answer that, as I suspect you are being flippant.

Whether ancient Greek/Roman sects survived the millennia is quite
legitimate, such as research into the Templars theology. However there
are written records, documents, sites, memoirs etc to work with.=20

And your own life? Has it been written down? No? Why should I believe
you exist, then, or that anything you say is true?

What's my life got to do with anything?

Just because something is written down does not in and of itself mean it
is true. Just because something is not written down does not, in and of
itself, mean it is not true.

Yes, but similarly because something isn't written down makes it far less likely to be 
true, just as something which is written down is more likely to be true.

In addition to written records we must consider oral tradition and the
physical evidence in the archeological record. But you would know this
if you had bothered to read Stone and Gimbutas before you started
spouting off about their work.  You haven=92t even bothered to look at =
the
pictures. Yet you are telling what is and is not contained there. Can
you even imagine how incredibly stupid this make you look?

OK then, what (in brief) physical evidence do they provide which I am ignorant of? Do 
they have letters from one witch to another from anytime pre 1950? Have they found and 
translated some witches texts from middle ages or ancient greece which provide a clear 
link to modern wiccans?

The wiccans have nil in the way of evidence.

Perhaps they do. Perhaps they do not. Either way, you don=92t know =
because
you have not examined what is purported to be the evidence in question.
If you had examined the purported evidence you would perhaps be able to
rebut it a piece at a time. Or perhaps you wouldn=92t. But you don=92t =
even
know what the purported evidence is, let alone whether its real or not,
and if it is,  whether their interpretation of it is is valid. This is
appalling scholarship on your part. You have a lot of nerve criticizing
anybody else=92s scholarship at all, especially in a field with which =
you
are so obviously unfamiliar.=20

This is nonsense. 'Maybe' there is evidence. I admit it's possible, but I very much 
doubt it. I notice that you aren't exactly eager to provide any of this evidence from 
your clearly greater knowledge of this subject than us mere mortals. Please do 
enlighten us.

Maybe you=92re right. Maybe Stone, Gimbutas, et al are totally wrong. =
But
maybe you=92re wrong. Either way, you=92re guessing. That=92s not how =
scholars
do it. Scholars do not draw conclusions  out of thin air, just to suit
some preconceived notion that have. Scholars at the very least read the
literature in field before they draw even the most tentative
conclusions, let alone spout off about them in public. The very best
scholars do their own field research, gather empirical data themselves,
and draw conclusions from that. Gimbutas dug all her life. Have you ever
been on a dig? I doubt it sincerely. You never even bothered to read the
literature. You apparently never even did a preliminary lit. search. And
yet you=92re telling us about archeology just as if you actually =
expected
us to assume that you know what you=92re talking about. What is the =
matter
with you? Do you take us for fools? =20

There are no digs for wiccan artefacts because there are none. If you can stop 
criticising me (for I've obviously struck a nerve) perhaps you can point me to the 
error in my beliefs, rather than making all osrts of wild assumptions.

You must. You read, by your own admission, a part of a book by Gardner,
you don=92t even know Merlin Stone=92s gender, and yet you expect us to
believe you know enough about the history of Goddess worship as to be
qualified to pass judgment on  scholars  in the field.  Do you even know
what the word =93scholarship=94 means?=20

Again, this 'Merlin Stone' sounds like a new age lunatic. At the very least she is 
presumably a pagan, and therefore far from objective.

But how do you know they didn't do so at some point during the 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is 'Merlin Stone' a pagan/Wiccan himself by any chance?

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it’s irrelevant.

What is relevant is that she’s a historian with a strong background in
archeology and presents a good case well.

But you wouldn’t know that, because you didn’t bothered to read what she
had to say before you started to talk about it.

He didn't even bother determining what sex Merlin Stone really is, either...



His name certainly sounds like he is.

Irrelevant.  My name sounds like a lake monster. Does this mean I have
flippers?

Well now, we all don't really KNOW now, do we?  ;-)

But I'm sure that those who feel Merlin Stone is a man also believe that Nessie is a 
woman...  ;-)



June

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:16:50 -0500 Ynr Chyldz Wyld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Caveat Lector-

From: "Nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is 'Merlin Stone' a pagan/Wiccan himself by any chance?

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it’s irrelevant.

What is relevant is that she’s a historian with a strong background in
archeology and presents a good case well.

But you wouldn’t know that, because you didn’t bothered to read what she
had to say before you started to talk about it.

He didn't even bother determining what sex Merlin Stone really is, either...



His name certainly sounds like he is.

Irrelevant.  My name sounds like a lake monster. Does this mean I have
flippers?

Well now, we all don't really KNOW now, do we?  ;-)

But I'm sure that those who feel Merlin Stone is a man also believe that Nessie is a 
woman...  ;-)

Nessie is a feminine name, it ends in a 'ie'. Of course it could well be a usage of 
such male names as Nestor. Similarly it could come from Vanessa. I don't know. i don't 
really care. Nessie certainly carries on like an old woman sometimes.



June


His/her gender is irrelevant. But if someone is called Tom, or Hank, or William, 
aren't I entitled to assume they are male? Similarly 'Merlin' is (to my knowledge) an 
exclusively male name, taken from the figure Merlin from the King Arthur myth cycle, 
who is always portrayed as male.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 01/05/2001 2:22:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Similar to Ninjitsu, line up a publisher and claim you have found some
ancient scroll/old family book. There are no existing Wiccan 'Book of
Shadows' (personal magic diaries) predating the 20th century. It is all a
con. 

Elizabeth Gouge spoke of "White Witches" as being standard in English
villages for generations.  She was a vicar's daughter herself.  Since she was
probably born before the turn of the century, it sounds as though there was
something similar to Wicca in the l9th century.  The book I'm remembering was
a small autobiographical volume.  The title had the word "snow" in it.  Prudy

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

 Similar to Ninjitsu, line up a publisher and claim you have found some
ancient scroll/old family book. There are no existing Wiccan 'Book of
Shadows' (personal magic diaries) predating the 20th century. It is all a
con. 

Elizabeth Gouge spoke of "White Witches" as being standard in English
villages for generations.  She was a vicar's daughter herself.  Since she was
probably born before the turn of the century, it sounds as though there was
something similar to Wicca in the l9th century.  The book I'm remembering was
a small autobiographical volume.  The title had the word "snow" in it.  Prudy


'Wise Women' etc. were nothing more than the quacks and faith healers we have today. 
There is no evidence that they were part of an organised religion or that they 
worshipped any particular non-Christian deity.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Johannes Schmidt III" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Nessie is a feminine name, it ends in a 'ie'.

In this case, I believe it is based on "Ness", as in the lake in Scotland with the 
purported monster...


 His/her gender is irrelevant. But if someone is called Tom,
or Hank, or William, aren't I entitled to assume they are male?

What about the actress Michael Learned?  Or the fact that John Wayne's real first name 
was Marion?

What about those people whose first names are Robin or Chris?


Similarly 'Merlin' is (to my knowledge) an exclusively male name,
taken from the figure Merlin from the King Arthur myth cycle,
who is always portrayed as male.

Actually, I believe originally the term 'merlin' was used as a title, and only became 
associated as a personal
name due to the Arthurian legends.  Somewhat akin to the names "Don" and "Donna", 
which originally were titles
of Spanish nobility (e.g., "Don Juan", "Donna (or Dona with the squiggle over the 'n') 
Maria"), but later were
used as 'Christian' names in and of themselves.



June

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

In this case, I believe it is based on "Ness", as in the lake in Scotland with the 
purported monster...


I think a lake would be by default feminine, like a ship?


 His/her gender is irrelevant. But if someone is called Tom,
or Hank, or William, aren't I entitled to assume they are male?

What about the actress Michael Learned?  Or the fact that John Wayne's real first 
name was Marion?

Whata about them? These are unusual. I'm sure 99% of people (if not more) called Hank, 
Tom or Bill are exclusively male.


What about those people whose first names are Robin or Chris?


What about them? There are a lot of cross-gender names, especially if you don't see 
the spelling. But I don't believe Merlin is one of them.


Similarly 'Merlin' is (to my knowledge) an exclusively male name,
taken from the figure Merlin from the King Arthur myth cycle,
who is always portrayed as male.

Actually, I believe originally the term 'merlin' was used as a title, and only became 
associated as a personal
name due to the Arthurian legends.  Somewhat akin to the names "Don" and "Donna", 
which originally were titles
of Spanish nobility (e.g., "Don Juan", "Donna (or Dona with the squiggle over the 
'n') Maria"), but later were
used as 'Christian' names in and of themselves.

Sure, but the name itself is a 'male' name. Is it French? I don't think it's Hebrew. 
Maybe from Greek?




A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[c.]

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: "Johannes Schmidt III" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2001 01:40
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory


 -Caveat Lector-

 In this case, I believe it is based on "Ness", as in the lake in Scotland
with the purported monster...
 

 I think a lake would be by default feminine, like a ship?



it is the monster he is named after- not the lake.
ships and cars (and computers) are only feminine to men, aren't they?
aren't you a reconstructed man johannes? ;)

and anyway- johnnie and willie end in ie and are not at all feminine, willie
in fact is another name for a penis.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

 -Caveat Lector-

 In this case, I believe it is based on "Ness", as in the lake in Scotland
with the purported monster...

Well, if I were to name myself after, say, the Murray River you would probably assume 
Murray was a male. Similarly if I named myself for Alice Springs, you would probably 
be entitled to assume (wrongly) that I was female.

 

 I think a lake would be by default feminine, like a ship?



it is the monster he is named after- not the lake.
ships and cars (and computers) are only feminine to men, aren't they?

I thought it was an English convention. Do women refer to ships as being male?

aren't you a reconstructed man johannes? ;)

Thanks to modern Frankenstein eye-television and ear-radio parroting puppet gangster 
slaves I have been reconstructed several times with mostly original parts.


and anyway- johnnie and willie end in ie and are not at all feminine, willie
in fact is another name for a penis.


I would spell both with a 'y' on the end.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Jayson R. Jones]

-Caveat Lector-

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:57:15 EST William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
-Caveat Lector-
From Sex to Superconsciousness - http://www.truthbeknown.com

--- ListBot Sponsor --
Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
--

The Scholars and the Goddess.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/01/allen.htm

Historically speaking, the "ancient" rituals of the Goddess movement
are almost certainly bunk by Charlotte Allen
WICCA, sometimes known as the Goddess movement, Goddess spirituality,
or the Craft, appears to be the fastest-growing religion in America.
Thirty
years ago only a handful of Wiccans existed. One scholar has estimated
that
there are now more than 200,000 adherents of Wicca and related
"neopagan"
faiths in the United States, the country where neopaganism, like many
formal
religions, is most flourishing. Wiccans -- who may also call themselves
Witches
capital W is meant to distance them from the word's negative
connotations, because Wiccans neither worship Satan nor practice the
sort of
malicious magic traditionally associated with witches) or just plain
pagans
(often with a capital P) -- tend to be white, middle-class, highly
educated,
and politically involved in liberal and environmental causes. About a
third of them are men. Wiccan services have been held on at least
fifteen
U.S. military bases and ships
Starhawk offers a vivid summary of the history of the faith,
explaining that witchcraft is "perhaps the oldest
religion extant in the West" and that it began "more than
thirty-five thousand years ago," during the last Ice Age. The religion's

earliest adherents worshipped two deities, one of each sex: "the Mother
Goddess, the birthgiver, who brings into existence all life," and the
"Horned God,"
a male hunter who died and was resurrected each year.

 In all probability, not a single element of the Wiccan story is true.
The evidence is overwhelming that Wicca is a distinctly
new religion, a 1950s concoction influenced by such things as Masonic
ritual and a late-nineteenth-century fascination with the esoteric and
the
occult, and that various assumptions informing the Wiccan view of
history are
deeply flawed. Furthermore, scholars generally agree that there is no
indication, either archaeological or in the written record, that any
ancient
people ever worshipped a single, archetypal goddess -- a conclusion that
strikes
at the heart of Wiccan belief. IN the past few years two well-respected
scholars have independently advanced essentially the same theory about
Wicca's founding. In 1998 Philip G. Davis, a professor of religion at
the
University of Prince Edward Island, published Goddess Unmasked: The Rise
of Neopagan Feminist Spirituality, which argued that Wicca was the
creation of
an English civil servant and amateur anthropologist named Gerald B.
Gardner(1884-1964)

Enough.  Modern Wiccan, Witchcraft, etc has the same relationship to the
past practices of witchcraft and shammanism as Modern Christianity has to
Abraham, Moses or Jesus.  Almost none.  They are all different
manifestations of the same belief system.  Whether the belief is in
multiple gods and goddess' or in one god, makes no difference.  Some
people have always needed to believe in something to explain what they do
not know.  Prayer of any kind can allow the mind the freedom to heal the
body or do any number of other "miraculous" things.  Science is not
proving that.  I can tell you that the Archaeological record has better
documentation for early belief systems than they do for the folk lore in
the bible.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

Furthermore, scholars generally agree that there is no indication,
either archaeological or in the written record, that any ancient people
ever worshipped a single, archetypal goddess


Some scholars agree. Others do not. Read Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone or
Marija Gimbutas.


invented by Gardner

Most of the historical and folkloric arguments for the existence of an
ancient Goddess religion tried to show that European witchcraft was a
descendant of a prehistoric religion. Two people are credited for first
hypothesizing that
witchcraft had been an organized religion prior to Christianity. In
1749, Girolamo Tartarotti claimed that witchcraft was a descendant of
the Dianic cults of Roman times (Valiente 1973: 224). In the early
Nineteenth century, the
French historian, Jules Michelet made a similar claim. Michelet argued
that witchcraft was a survival of a pre-Christian northern European
fertility cult (Jordan 1996: 106). Michelet's idea had a profound impact
on the work
of Charles Leland. Leland was a poet, an occultist, and the first
President of the Gypsy-Lore Society (Guiley 1989: 200). He was educated
at the Sorbonne (Jordan 1996: 98), where he encountered Michelet's
theory that witchcraft
was a survival of a pagan cult. In Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches
(1899), Leland claimed that the history of contemporary Italian witches
shows that they were descendants of a cult which worshipped the Roman
goddess Diana (Jordan 1996: 98). Although many questioned his use of
anecdotal evidence, some neopagans still use his book to show that
witchcraft is an ancient religion. 

Margaret Murray, an amateur folklorist and professional Egyptologist,
advanced similar claims. In The Witch-Cult in Western Europe (1921) and
The God of the Witches (1931), she argued that witchcraft was an ancient
religion by
comparing Paleolithic rock art from Ariege and Dordogne depicting masked
and horned dancers (Murray 1970 [1931]: 16-7) with Roman, Greek, and
Celtic art, Christian depictions of the Witches' Sabbath as well as the
folk dances and
costumes of rural people in England and Europe. Murray concluded that
witchcraft is an old religion dedicated to the worship of a nature deity
known as the Horned God (1970 [1931]: 160-1). With the advance of
Christianity and the witch hunts, the witches went underground and
formed disparate covens. While these covens largely disappeared before
the end of the Nineteenth century, Murray suggested that some had
survived and had left a group of cultural artifacts that permeated
European culture. For instance, she argued in The Divine King in England
(1954) that the principles of kingship in Britain were inextricably
bound up with the murder of the sacred king demanded by the old religion
of witchcraft (Valiente 1973: 249).

After the last of the English Witchcraft laws had been repealed in 1951
and Murray's research had been published, Gerald Gardner also began to
write popular treatments of witchcraft.

 -- from: http://sacredsource.com/all/page.pl?item=FSP

** 

In my estimation, the REAL problem that Christians have with Wiccans is
the Wiccan attitude about sex. 

See: http://www.goddess.org/sabrina/theology.html

A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A
o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send 
email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

Furthermore, scholars generally agree that there is no indication,
either archaeological or in the written record, that any ancient people
ever worshipped a single, archetypal goddess


Some scholars agree. Others do not. Read Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone or Marija 
Gimbutas.


There are some scholars who claim that AIDs is caused by Paraffin on apples, and 
others who believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago by a big man living in the 
clouds.

   =20
invented by Gardner

Most of the historical and folkloric arguments for the existence of an
ancient Goddess religion tried to show that European witchcraft was a
descendant of a prehistoric religion. Two people are credited for first
hypothesizing that
witchcraft had been an organized religion prior to Christianity. In
1749, Girolamo Tartarotti claimed that witchcraft was a descendant of
the Dianic cults of Roman times (Valiente 1973: 224). In the early
Nineteenth century, the
French historian, Jules Michelet made a similar claim. Michelet argued
that witchcraft was a survival of a pre-Christian northern European
fertility cult (Jordan 1996: 106). Michelet's idea had a profound impact
on the work
of Charles Leland. Leland was a poet, an occultist, and the first
President of the Gypsy-Lore Society (Guiley 1989: 200). He was educated
at the Sorbonne (Jordan 1996: 98), where he encountered Michelet's
theory that witchcraft
was a survival of a pagan cult. In Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches
(1899), Leland claimed that the history of contemporary Italian witches
shows that they were descendants of a cult which worshipped the Roman
goddess Diana (Jordan 1996: 98). Although many questioned his use of
anecdotal evidence, some neopagans still use his book to show that
witchcraft is an ancient religion.=20

It's a fine theory, but there is no evidence. No archaeologists have dug up a 'witch 
temple' dating from then to now. No latin or greek books on the subject. Nil. Like all 
religions, the adherents have blind faith, and this is one aspect of it.


Margaret Murray, an amateur folklorist and professional Egyptologist, advanced 
similar claims. In The Witch-Cult in Western Europe (1921) and The God of the Witches 
(1931), she argued that witchcraft was an ancient
religion by comparing Paleolithic rock art from Ariege and Dordogne depicting masked 
and horned dancers (Murray 1970 [1931]: 16-7) with Roman, Greek, and Celtic art, 
Christian depictions of the Witches' Sabbath as well as the folk dances and costumes 
of rural people in England and Europe. Murray concluded that witchcraft is an old 
religion dedicated to the worship of a nature deity
known as the Horned God (1970 [1931]: 160-1). With the advance of Christianity and the 
witch hunts, the witches went underground and formed disparate covens. While these 
covens largely disappeared before the end of the Nineteenth century, Murray suggested 
that some had
survived and had left a group of cultural artifacts that permeated European culture. 
For instance, she argued in The Divine King in England (1954) that the principles of 
kingship in Britain were inextricably bound up with the murder of the sacred king 
demanded by the old religion
of witchcraft (Valiente 1973: 249).

Murray's work draws mainly on testimony given to inquisitors by accused witches who 
were tortured. She postulated that because testimony from so many different 
individuals in different parts of Europe shared common themes, there must be something 
to it. More likely is that the inquisitors had a script of accusations which the 
tortured individuals were all too ready to agree with.

Horns and masks are common themes in primitive art, to assume that pre-historic cave 
drawings and middle ages rituals are linked becuae of the presence of horns and masks 
is drawing a very long bow.

After the last of the English Witchcraft laws had been repealed in 1951 and Murray's 
research had been published, Gerald Gardner also began to write popular treatments of 
witchcraft.

 -- from: http://sacredsource.com/all/page.pl?item=3DFSP



The thing that gets me is that most wiccans (and I have known a few) are just as 
ignorant and deluded as most fundamentalist Xtians. They come up with all sorts of 
incredible stuff and seem genuinely surprised when other people are sceptical. One 
Wiccan I know has assured me that

A) She regularly sees ghosts and dead people walking around;
B) Her flat is full of 'portals' to other worlds, but they don't work when someone 
negative like me is around;
C) She can communicate psychically with her cat.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

.There are some scholars who claim that AIDs is caused by Paraffin on
apples, and others who believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago by
a big man living in the clouds.

That in no way refutes the work of Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone or Marija
Gimbutas.


It's a fine theory, but there is no evidence. No archaeologists have
dug up a 'witch temple' dating from then to now.


Witches do not worship in temples. Some pagans worship in temples, but
not all pagans. Witches are pagans who do not.


No latin or greek books on the subject. Nil. Like all religions, the
adherents have blind faith, and this is one aspect of it.

The religion, and the faith people have in it, are quite different
things from scholarship about it. 


Murray's work draws mainly on testimony given to inquisitors by accused
witches who were tortured. She postulated that because testimony from so
many different individuals in different parts of Europe shared common
themes, there must be something to it. More likely is that the
inquisitors had a script of accusations which the tortured individuals
were all too ready to agree with.

Murray's work has been discredited. So what? The point is not whether or
not she was correct, but that she predated Gardner. Ergo, Gardner did
not make it up. He built on the work of others.



The thing that gets me is that most wiccans (and I have known a few)
are just as ignorant and deluded as most fundamentalist Xtians. 

We are not discussing Wiccans or their beliefs. We are discussing the
work of the scholars who study them. It's a different subject.

A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A
o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send 
email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

There are some scholars who claim that AIDs is caused by Paraffin on
apples, and others who believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago by
a big man living in the clouds.

That in no way refutes the work of Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone or Marija
Gimbutas.

Is 'Merlin Stone' a pagan/Wiccan himself by any chance? His name certainly sounds like 
he is. Whether ancient Greek/Roman sects survived the millennia is quite legitimate, 
such as research into the Templars theology. However there are written records, 
documents, sites, memoirs etc to work with. The wiccans have nil in the way of 
evidence.

It's a fine theory, but there is no evidence. No archaeologists have
dug up a 'witch temple' dating from then to now.


Witches do not worship in temples. Some pagans worship in temples, but
not all pagans. Witches are pagans who do not.

But how do you know they didn't do so at some point during the last 2,000 years? 
Religion has always been defined by the structures they build, and the texts they 
write. The Wiccans have neither.

No latin or greek books on the subject. Nil. Like all religions, the
adherents have blind faith, and this is one aspect of it.

The religion, and the faith people have in it, are quite different
things from scholarship about it.=20


Murray's work draws mainly on testimony given to inquisitors by accused
witches who were tortured. She postulated that because testimony from so
many different individuals in different parts of Europe shared common
themes, there must be something to it. More likely is that the
inquisitors had a script of accusations which the tortured individuals
were all too ready to agree with.

Murray's work has been discredited. So what? The point is not whether or
not she was correct, but that she predated Gardner. Ergo, Gardner did
not make it up. He built on the work of others.

I didn't say she has been 'discredited' but most scholars agree that her conclusions 
are dubious. In any case, didn't Gardner claim he got most of his information from his 
Grandmother? (I have his book somewhere, I never fully read it though.)

The thing that gets me is that most wiccans (and I have known a few)
are just as ignorant and deluded as most fundamentalist Xtians.=20

We are not discussing Wiccans or their beliefs. We are discussing the
work of the scholars who study them. It's a different subject.

I don't know what thread you are following, but this one was in response to the 
document on wiccan pseudo-history, which is all about the beliefs of wiccans trying to 
be passed off as legitimate history. I'm sure that 90% or more of the 'scholars' who 
research this area are themselves Wiccan or assorted pagans, in the same way that most 
people who bother to study the bible are Christians, Talmudic scholars tend to be 
Jewish and so forth.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[William Shannon]

>From Sex to Superconsciousness - http://www.truthbeknown.com


ListBot SponsorThe Scholars and the Goddess.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/01/allen.htm

Historically speaking, the "ancient" rituals of the Goddess movement are 
almost certainly bunk by Charlotte Allen
WICCA, sometimes known as the Goddess movement, Goddess spirituality, or the 
Craft, appears to be the fastest-growing religion in America. Thirty years 
ago only a handful of Wiccans existed. One scholar has estimated that there 
are now more than 200,000 adherents of Wicca and related "neopagan" faiths in 
the United States, the country where neopaganism, like many formal religions, 
is most flourishing. Wiccans -- who may also call themselves Witches (the 
capital W is meant to distance them from the word's negative connotations, 
because Wiccans neither worship Satan nor practice the sort of malicious 
magic traditionally associated with witches) or just plain pagans (often with 
a capital P) -- tend to be white, middle-class, highly educated, and 
politically involved in liberal and environmental causes. About a third of 
them are men. Wiccan services have been held on at least fifteen U.S. 
military bases and ships. 



Many come to Wicca after reading The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the 
Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess (1979), a best-selling introduction to 
Wiccan teachings and rituals written by Starhawk (née Miriam Simos), a Witch 
(the term she prefers) from California. Starhawk offers a vivid summary of 
the history of the faith, explaining that witchcraft is "perhaps the oldest 
religion extant in the West" and that it began "more than thirty-five 
thousand years ago," during the last Ice Age. The religion's earliest 
adherents worshipped two deities, one of each sex: "the Mother Goddess, the 
birthgiver, who brings into existence all life," and the "Horned God," a male 
hunter who died and was resurrected each year. Male shamans "dressed in skins 
and horns in identification with the God and the herds," but priestesses 
"presided naked, embodying the fertility of the Goddess." All over 
prehistoric Europe people made images of the Goddess, sometimes showing her 
giving birth to the "Divine Child -- her consort, son, and seed." They knew 
her as a "triple Goddess" -- practitioners today usually refer to her as 
maiden, mother, crone -- but fundamentally they saw her as one deity. Each 
year these prehistoric worshippers celebrated the seasonal cycles, which led 
to the "eight feasts of the Wheel": the solstices, the equinoxes, and four 
festivals -- Imbolc (February 2, now coinciding with the Christian feast of 
Candlemas), Beltane (May Day), Lammas or Lughnasad (in early August), and 
Samhain (our Halloween). This nature-attuned, woman-respecting, peaceful, and 
egalitarian culture prevailed in what is now Western Europe for thousands of 
years, Starhawk wrote, until Indo-European invaders swept across the region, 
introducing warrior gods, weapons designed for killing human beings, and 
patriarchal civilization. Then came Christianity, which eventually insinuated 
itself among Europe's ruling elite. Still, the "Old Religion" lived, often in 
the guise of Christian practices. Starting in the fourteenth century, 
Starhawk argued, religious and secular authorities began a 400-year campaign 
to eradicate the Old Religion by exterminating suspected adherents, whom they 
accused of being in league with the devil. Most of the persecuted were women, 
generally those outside the social norm -- not only the elderly and mentally 
ill but also midwives, herbal healers, and natural leaders, those women whose 
independent ways were seen as a threat. During "the Burning Times," Starhawk 
wrote, some nine million were executed. The Old Religion went more deeply 
underground, its traditions passed down secretly in families and among 
trusted friends, until it resurfaced in the twentieth century. Like their 
ancient forebears, Wiccans revere the Goddess, practice shamanistic magic of 
a harmless variety, and celebrate the eight feasts, or sabbats, sometimes in 
the nude. Subject to slight variations, this story is the basis of many 
hugely popular Goddess handbooks. It also informs the writings of numerous 
secular feminists -- Gloria Steinem, Marilyn French, Barbara Ehrenreich, 
Deirdre English -- to whom the ascendancy of "the patriarchy" or the 
systematic terrorization of strong, independent women by means of witchcraft 
trials are historical givens. Moreover, elements of the story suffuse a broad 
swath of the intellectual and literary fabric of the past hundred years, from 
James Frazer's The Golden Bough and Robert Graves's The White Goddess to the 
novels of D. H. Lawrence, from the writings of William Butler Yeats and T. S. 
Eliot to Jungian psychology and the widely viewed 1988 public-television 
series The Power of Myth. In all probability, not a single element of the 
Wiccan story is true. The evidence is 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Wiccan Pseudohistory

[Johannes Schmidt III]

-Caveat Lector-

The thing to remember about Wicca, and most modern witchcraft in general, is that it 
was all invented in the 20th century by men (Gerald Gardner and one other who's name I 
don't immediately recollect).

Similar to Ninjitsu, line up a publisher and claim you have found some ancient 
scroll/old family book. There are no existing Wiccan 'Book of Shadows' (personal magic 
diaries) predating the 20th century. It is all a con.

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om