[CTRL] Waco Fires Still Burn: 10th Anniversary

[iNFoWaRZ]

-Caveat Lector-

Ten years ago the US government, without the lawful due process of a search warrant, 
attacked and surrounded a church in Waco, Tx and fired into the church with automatic 
weapons, and at the end of the illegal siege, gassed the church full of men, women, 
children, and elderly, with a gas banned for war use by the Geneva Convention, and 
then burned the church to the ground.  Among the dead were 17 children.  The remains 
of the church were bulldozed to destroy all evidence of the criminal wrongdoing of a 
corrupt and out-of-control federal government.  The Un-American, unmanly, cowardly, 
yellow-bellied  Murderers and Constitution shredders were not only NOT brought to 
justice, many were given awards and promotions.  This is Tyranny.

Waco Fires Still Burn
By Chuck Baldwin
February 28, 2003

Today marks the tenth anniversary of the illegal assault by agents of the Bureau of 
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms on the home of the Branch Davidians living outside 
Waco, Texas. A shootout resulted with several deaths on both sides. Shortly afterward, 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation took over, and on April 19, 1993, agents from both 
departments (using military hardware and both U.S. and foreign military advisers) laid 
siege to the dwellings which resulted in the deaths of 87 American citizens. Many of 
the victims were old men, women, and small children.

The events at Waco have contributed to the distrust and disdain of federal abuse of 
power like nothing since 1775. Moved by grassroots pressure, the Congress of the 
United States convened special hearings into the conduct of those federal agencies 
responsible. The result was less than satisfactory to many Americans.

Federal agents lied under oath without any punitive repercussions. Evidence was 
conveniently lost. Videotapes of the events revealed deceit, duplicity, arrogance, and 
a thirst for blood on behalf of the federal agencies involved.

At the end of the hearings, the questions remained unanswered and no one within the 
government was held accountable. Those Davidians that survived the raid were tried for 
murder. A jury found them innocent, but no charges were ever brought against any of 
the agents.

Whatever one thinks of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, they had committed no 
capital crimes. Furthermore, it is unconscionable that tanks and other military 
equipment would be used against mostly women and children within our own country! The 
bizarre tactics employed by the ATF and FBI at Waco are unfathomable and unforgivable! 
Our government has been more lenient and patient when dealing with many of America's 
deadliest enemies that it was in dealing with those poor folks at Waco.

There must never again be another Waco! God-given, constitutional liberties apply to 
every American. Under no circumstances must we allow federal agencies to circumvent 
the laws of our nation!

The demands of liberty and justice rest upon us all. Certainly, Congress plays a part. 
Their investigation into Waco was inept, to say the least. The media also plays an 
important role. They have the power to inform; they also have the power to sedate. 
Absent a love for truth and justice by a lackadaisical media and a cowardly Congress, 
the fires of Waco still burn in the heart of the American conscience.

Beyond that, we have recently watched as the Bush administration has burgeoned the 
power and scope of the federal government to proportions not seen since Lincoln 
invaded the South. We seem to be entering an era of unlimited and unbridled federal 
power and authority. Therefore, are more Wacos on America's horizon?

It is incumbent upon each of us to seriously ponder our future. Furthermore, it is 
imperative that each of us is willing to study again the great principles upon which 
this nation was built. Those principles made us; those principles keep us. Without 
them, our future is about as permanent as the wooden buildings at Mt. Carmel. Without 
them, the fire of tyranny will reduce us to the cinders of obscurity.

© Chuck Baldwin
NOTE TO THE READER:
These commentaries are copyrighted and may be reposted or republished without charge 
providing the publication does not charge for subscriptions or advertising and 
providing the publication reposts the column intact with full credit given including 
Chuck's web site: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com.  If the publication charges for 
subscriptions or advertising, the publication must contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] for 
permission to use this column.

-iNFoWaRZ
"Is your Church Government Approved?"

http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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[CTRL] waco - from a friend

[eric stewart]

-Caveat Lector-

not my 'little birdie' but i submit this for research and
thought...i do not submit this as any form of gospel..asking if
anyone else knows anything about this - if so, please email me off
the list...



negative...no wmd, no fully assembled autofire weaponrynothing
but hellfire attached firemechanisms, and several 50calibre
weaponsnothing illegal at all...just a lotta dead,burnt,bodies
because vernon howe went to Israel to proscelite for his branch
davidian group, Mossad plays for keeps, and used cult awareness
networkHe pissed off someone in Israel and paid for flying the
Israeli Flag over Waco, by dying..end of story, no child abuse,
no mk mindfucking, no illegal drug lab, no shit



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DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] [WACO] Paul D. Wilcher, Attorney letter to Janet Reno (fwd)

[Yardbird]

-Caveat Lector-

[Waco] Paul D. Wilcher, Attorney letter to Janet Reno
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=4238

 The Paul D. Wilcher, Attorney letter to Janet Reno on what
 really happened at Waco. Dated: Friday, May 21st, 1993

 Defrauding America Pg 416 (First Edition)
 http://www.defraudingamerica.com/
 Rodney Stich can be reached via email at:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 by calling at any time, 1-800-247-7389

 Another Death:
 Hours before this book was to go to press, I learned of another death
 of one of our small group, Attorney Paul Wilcher. Marion Kindig, a
 friend of mine, expressed concern about Wilcher's sudden Disappearance.

 Sarah McClendon asked the Washington police to go to Wilcher's
 apartment to check on his safety, stating that several friends had not
 seen Wilcher for the past two weeks and that they feared foul play.
 The Police refused to do so. I called Marion late Tuesday night in
 Washington suggesting steps she should immediately take the following
 morning to get into Wilcher's apartment.

 The next morning Wilcher was found dead, sitting upright on the toilet.
 He had apparently been killed elsewhere, tied in a fetal position, and
 rigor mortis set in. He may have been brought back to his apartment and
 placed on the stool, to look like a natural death. It wa made to look
 like a suicide, but a body does not freeze into that position when a
 person dies, the body falls over. Swarms of FBI agents appeared, going
 out of their way to tell Marion and McCledon that they had not interest
 in the case.
 -
 From: John B. Purkop, December 19, 1993 - 206-840-8074
 Paul Wilcher left three teenage children whose mother struggles to basic
 necessities of life. They are good children, the kind you don't see much
 these day day's

 Paul Wilcher was a multi millionaire lawyer/real estate inventory in
 Chicago.

 After building up a $60,000.000 real estate empire, he made a mistake
 that cost him everything...  Judges in Chicago's bankruptcy courts,
 successfully bankrupted him and took from him his entire fortune.

 For over ten years, Paul stayed in Chicago and tried to fight and expose
 the corruption in Chicago's bankruptcy courts. This is how he was
 associated with Sherman Skolnick and Jim Vassolos. Paul spent every
 penny he could earn in those ten years, just fighting the corruption in
 Chicago. For most of these years, his wife Carol supported him and their
 Children.
 ---
 Paul Wilcher's FULL REPORT w/ letter (103 pages)
 Letter to Attorney General Janet Reno dated May 21, 1993
 About what really happened at Waco

 Page 1

 Re: (1) Vital NEW information concerning the conflagration at David
 Koresh's Branch Davidian compound, "Ranch Apocalypse," outside Waco
 Texas, on Monday, April 19th, 1993, which is now being kept from you
 covered up -- i.e., that what happened was NOT a "mass suicide," but
 rather a MASS MURDER;

 (3) The extreme sensitivity of this information, and my specific
 proposal as to how you should handle it. The lives of key participants,
 other witnesses, and even myself are now in grave danger as a result of
 my passing this information on to you. If you let this information fall
 into the hands of the wrong persons, some or all of those who know the
 truth about Waco and are now prepared to come forward and testify could
 well be "silenced" (i.e., MURDERED) in the very near future;

 Page - 45
 (c) And then above the DCI and the Joint Chiefs, at the very Pinnacle of
 power, sits a top secret council of nine (9) men -- whose names I do
 not know, and would not recognize even if I stumbled across them --
 but who nevertheless have the power, and who regularly exercise this
 power -- to order the "termination with extreme prejudice" of any
 person on earth, up to and including the President of the United States.

 Page 101 of Paul Wilcher Report to Janet Reno:

 MY PLAN ON HOW TO EXPOSE THE TRUTH OF WACO & END THE CIA'S
 "ABOVE THE LAW" STATUS -- IMMUNITY FOR 16 OR SO "BLACK"
 OPERATIVES IN EXCHANGE FOR THEIR COMPLETE TESTIMONY ON WACO
 AND ALL OTHER MATTERS PLUS PROTECTION FOR THEMSELVES AND
 THEIR FAMILIES

 ATTORNEY GENERAL  JANET RENO - Friday, May 21st, 1993
 Slow loading...(worth the wait!)
 Part 1 http://www.apfn.org/wacoinfo/PW_report1.pdf
 Part 2 http://www.apfn.org/wacoinfo/PW_report2.pdf
 Part 3 http://www.apfn.org/wacoinfo/PW_report3.pdf

 Part 1 http://www.apfn.org/wacoinfo/PWreport1.zip
 Part 2 http://www.apfn.org/wacoinfo/PWreport2.zip
 Part 3 http://www.apfn.org/wacoinfo/PWreport3.zip

 (APFN, A copy of this report was sent to the Waco
 Congressional hearings, registe

[CTRL] Waco

[Aleisha Saba]

-Caveat Lector-

Note the name in his item.Rodin - how could anyone forget that date.

Saba


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News: Local

Claimants to Davidian land back in court arguing ownership

By MARK ENGLAND Tribune-Herald staff writer

A month after a McLennan County jury failed to determine who owns Mount
Carmel, those seeking title to it were back in a Waco court.

Judge Alan Mayfield of the 74th State District Court heard opposing
ownership arguments Thursday.

Douglas Mitchell ? a follower of the late Lois Roden, from whom the late
David Koresh gained control of the Branch Davidians ? asked Mayfield to
sustain the jury's May 5 verdict that neither Koresh's surviving
followers such as Clive Doyle nor the widow of the late Branch Davidian
leader George Roden, Amo Roden, are legitimate church trustees.

Amo Roden asked Mayfield to overturn the portion of the jury's verdict
that pertained to her.

Attorney Percy Isgitt of Houston, representing Doyle and other followers
of Koresh, asked Mayfield to overturn the jury's verdict and designate
the plaintiffs in the first trial as church trustees.

None of the parties disputes that Mount Carmel, on which Koresh and 75
followers died seven years ago, belongs to the Branch Davidian church.
However, all sides believe themselves to have the strongest ties to the
original church.
Mayfield, after listening to all three parties, said he will issue a
decision in the next 90 days.

Roden opened the hearing by arguing that she had in effect done the job
of a church trustee for the past 12 years.

"It should be pretty clear here that I'm angling for a court appointment
as trustee," Roden told Mayfield.
Mitchell argued that the Davidians who had followed Ben and Lois Roden
and chose not to follow Koresh were the rightful heirs of Mount Carmel,
located on 77 acres about 10 miles outside Waco.

The jury by its verdict seemed to recognize there had been a schism in
the group, Mitchell said.

He also complained about Koresh's followers calling themselves Branch
Davidians.

"The court should issue an injunction barring the plaintiffs from using
any names, words or designation of the original church," Mitchell said.
Mitchell said the jury made it clear that the plaintiffs had no right to
Mount Carmel.

"The jury was actually saying the documents subsequently filed were not
above board or done in good faith," Mitchell said. "They were something
done to deceive people, to gain something they had no right to gain."

Isgitt argued there was definitive evidence proving the plaintiffs had a
right to the property.

"We've submitted undisputed evidence that some or all of the plaintiffs
have been trustees of the church since 1973," Isgitt said.

Neither Roden nor Mitchell have been trustees of the Davidian church,
Isgitt said.

"The defendants have not produced one scintilla of probative evidence to
support their claim to be trustees," Isgitt said. "For the simple reason
that none exists."

In rebuttal, Roden argued that Koresh's followers weren't fit to be
trustees. She claimed they seized Mount Carmel, turning it from a
community of families into a commune, tearing down the single-family
homes and building a rambling structure that featured dormitories for
men and women.

"It supported a lifestyle quite different from when the church had
single-family housing," Roden said.

Mark England can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 757-5744.
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http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

Re: [CTRL] ] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

I'm trying to give Andrew the benefit of the doubt. but something
is nagging at the back of my mind. The virus story came up only after I
demanded proof that I said what I was alleged to have said, a quote
taken out of context with no date, post number, or any other reference
point by which it could be verified. My gut instinct says there's more
to this than meets the eye. I've got an idea what that "more" is, but I
need to do further investigatin before I say on-list what it is.

Tenorlove


--- Amelia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> XI have already been sent BadTrans before and it did NOT make a nice
> custom CTRL subject line, complete with snippets from 1999 archived
> posts.  It was very generic like "Hey, look at this!"  Any of you
> techies know how this works?  BadTrans is supposed to operate on
> unread email so does this mean he is claiming to have email unread
> from 1999?
> ~Amelia~
>

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html";>Archives of
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 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/";>ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT! (fwd)

[YnrChyldzWyld]

  I did not send the below post.  I have no idea how my email ID 
  got into the 'From' column.
   
   
  June
   
  ---Original Message---
   
  
  From: YnrChyldzWyld
  Date: Sunday, May 13, 
  2001 01:03:19 AM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [CTRL] Fwd: 
      [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT! (fwd)
   This is BULLSHIT!! This ASSCRACK is 
  INTENTIONALLY sending this *hit to me (us)...and at this rate is at 
  the very least asking for a fistful of thunder!! Bill.
   





	
	
	
	
	
	
	




_Bravenet IncrediMail - Email has finally 
evolved - Click 
Here

[CTRL] Fwd: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT! (fwd)

[YnrChyldzWyld]

Ah yes, a new bumpersticker is born:

"Kiss My Ass For Jesus"


June ;-)

*Original Message*



This is BULLSHIT!!

This ASSCRACK is INTENTIONALLY sending this *hit to me (us)...and at this
rate is at the very least asking for a fistful of thunder!!

Bill.



In The Name of God Most Gracious, Most Merciful


It was the message with attachments. Why would I do something like that; the
post went to many of my dearest friends. I bearly know how to turn this damn
thing on let alone try to crash someone's computer. You can see that that
post was sent to me almost a year ago by somebody else. I must have opened
it myself because I have nothing but trouble with this computer. part of the
virus must have been to send itself out to my list, because it was
unintentional

X98

_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[CTRL] ] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Amelia]

-Caveat Lector-

XI have already been sent BadTrans before and it did NOT make a nice
custom CTRL subject line, complete with snippets from 1999 archived
posts.  It was very generic like "Hey, look at this!"  Any of you
techies know how this works?  BadTrans is supposed to operate on
unread email so does this mean he is claiming to have email unread
from 1999?
~Amelia~

- Original Message -
From: "X 98" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!



In The Name of God Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Yes! I have been trying to work my hotmail through outlook express
and some
how this damn thing went out. I have been told that there is  a
viruse in
it. I have no idea how it went out. I am truly sorry.



X98

_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html";>Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/";>ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] Fwd: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[William Shannon]

After this I DOUBT SERIOUSLY that El DOUCHE is "just goofing" or an
"accidental tourist"...

The FUCKIN' PRICK!


Sorry, I lost my head...

B.



In The Name of God Most Gracious, Most Merciful

I would like you to do something for me that I am sure you are very good at

KISS MY ASS.



X98

_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[CTRL] Fwd: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[William Shannon]

I got the following today from our infector...any thoughts??

Bill.



In The Name of God Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Yes! I have been trying to work my hotmail through outlook express and some
how this damn thing went out. I have been told that there is  a viruse in
it. I have no idea how it went out. I am truly sorry.



X98

_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[CTRL] Waco: Year 8 (fwd)

[Yardbird]

-Caveat Lector-

Waco: Year 8
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=919

KORESH = CYRUS !!!
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=915

Research into the Power Elite's secretive Bilderberg Conferences - from
Bristol - England - For advanced researchers.
http://www.apfn.org/bilderberg.org/

Bilderberg 2001 - May 24-28 nr Gothenburg Sweden?
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=871

We The People Law Class with Ken Evens
http://micromann.freeservers.com/index.html

Casualties of a toxic war From The Tampa Tribune
http://tampatrib.com/MGAUCKCXTLC.html

This site makes for interesting reading, especially the
underground base links and the cool links are good also.
http://www.sauderzone.com/

UNARMED AND UNSAFE
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/unarmed.htm

Fuel Air Devices (cheap explosives)
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=893

What the President Should Know about our Monetary System
http://www.fame.org/HTM/President16.htm

The Fight for Honest Monetary Weights and Measures (Honest Money) is
not a new fight. It was fought, and won, several times in the last century.
In particular, ordinary people have always supported honest monetary weights
and measures and always opposed fiat money, a.k.a. paper money. Set
forth below are some quotations from some more famous personalities who
expressed thoughts on the money issue. Also included are some revealing
quotations from official publications, such as those published by the Federal
Reserve.
http://www.fame.org/

Power of Positive Patriotism
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/apfncont.htm

Public Education System vs Christian Home Schooling
Home School News, Info. & Links
http://www.ordination.org/homeschool.htm

The breakthrough for signals from the internet on the phone began with
the Carterfone decision in 1968, founded by Tom Carter, Dallas, Texas.
http://www.envax.net/history.htm

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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[CTRL] Waco cover-up: "The FLIR Project" (fwd)

[Yardbird]

-Caveat Lector-

Waco cover-up: "The FLIR Project"
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=528

 Original Message 
Subject: McNulty on Sunday Show
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:09:23 -0500
From: "Oceana Investigations" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ken Vardon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Mike McNulty, nationally known for his indefatigable research and reporting
of the Waco cover-up, has done it again! This time he has exposed the
cover-up of the cover-up.

Followers of the story will be remember that Janet Reno hired John Danforth
as an independent "investigator" last year in order to "clear up the
matter."  Danforth cleared it up for the news media by finally concluding
last fall that " . . . we are 100% certain that the FBI did not fire a shot
that day (April 19, 1993)."

The dispute had begun brewing a couple of years before when Mike McNulty et
al. produced a documentary video which included the FBI's own FLIR (Forward
Looking Infrared) tapes shot from an airplane at 4,000 feet during the
massacre. FLIR reflects heat, and the hotter it is the whiter it appears on
the film. With the hundreds of white spots appearing from three sides of the
building, the researchers believed they had the video evidence of a planned
government execution of the Davidians.

The government based its "final conclusion" that this was not so largely on
the point that the the white blips on the screen were of "too long a
duration" to be gunfire and decided that they were simply reflections of
sunlight.

McNultey's new video, "The FLIR Project", destroys this hoax and makes one
100% certain that the FBI and Delta Force ground troops DID fire hundreds of
rounds that day.  With new and different technology, McNultey was able to
pull up magnified images of men in uniform moving and firing around the
Davidian church home. The men, women, and children were brutally murdered in
the doorways as they attempted to escape the raging inferno.

Mike McNulty will be our guest for the full hour this evening and will
welcome your call-in questions.

This 34-minute piece of irrefutable evidence is available through the
website below for $22, shipping and handling included.

SEE:
http://www.patshannan.bizland.com

HEAR: "Pat Shannan's Investigative Reports"
live every Sunday evening, 8:00pm EST, 5:00pm PST at
http://www.gcnlive.com.

Your call-in number for questions and comments
is 1-800-259-9231
=
Film Resurrects Waco
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=443

Why Waco?
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/wacopg.htm

Justice Department investigation should target UT campus
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37cd145368df.htm

Bring The Waco Murders To Justice! CLASS ACTION SUIT
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/CAS.htm

American Spectator Online April 5, 2001

The Latest Waco Fireball
http://www.spectator.org

by James Bovard

The Waco ghost may be rising from the grave once more to place its ice-cold
hand again on the neck of the Washington establishment. A new film and a
new book by top Waco experts achieve the miraculous -- further shredding
government credibility on the FBI's April 19, 1993 attack on the Branch
Davidians.

Back in September 1999, Attorney General Janet Reno hand-picked
establishment eminence and former U.S. Senator John Danforth (R-MO) to put
the wooden stake in the heart of the Waco issue once and for all. Danforth,
operating supposedly as an independent counsel, did his pious best -- and
raced to release his report last summer just as rumor had it that he was a
top prospect to be Bush's vice presidential candidate. Danforth basically
exonerated the feds, saving his scorn for low-life Americans who dared
criticize the government tank assault and gassing of the women, children,
and men in the Davidians' home.

A key issue in Danforth's investigation was whether FBI agents fired on
Davidians during the final attack. Rhythmic patterns on Forward Looking
Infrared ("FLIR") tapes made from an FBI plane strongly suggested automatic
weapons fire came from positions near the FBI tanks. Danforth persuaded
federal Judge Walter Smith to conduct a re- enactment last year of the
final day's action. Danforth then proclaimed that the film from the
re-enactment proved beyond a doubt that federal agents did not shoot at
Davidians -- in large part because the muzzle flashes on the re-enactment
were much shorter than the shots from the April 19, 1993 tape.

A new film, entitled "The F.L.I.R. Project," produced by Mike McNulty (one
of the masterminds behind the 1998 Academy Award finalist documentary,
"Waco: Rules of Engagement") reveals fatal flaws in Danforth's re-
enactment. (The film is available at www.flirproject.com)

On April 19, 1993, FBI agents relied on a commercial, off- the-shelf ammo
-- the type that would be used by any hunter or shooter. For the March 19,
2000 Danforth

[CTRL] Waco 2 about to happen......

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

> Item 1
> Friends of Liberty, International
> http://www.friendsofliberty.com
> January 17, 2001
>
> SUPREME COURT DENIES INDIANAPOLIS BAPTIST TEMPLE CASE U. S. MARSHALS
> RAID
> IMMINENT
> Indianapolis Baptist Temple
> The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Religious organizations are taxable
> and
> now the Court has said the New Testament Church must pay taxes and
> come
> under control of the IRS. In 1983, the Court ruled that the IRS 501
> (c) (3)
> tax-exempt organizations are under the rule of the wicked in
> government. Now
> the U. S. Supreme Court has refused to hear the IBT case while
> hearing a
> case concerning professional golfers being allowed to use a golf
> cart. Read
> about it HERE! http://www.friendsofliberty.com/2001/00121_01.htm
>
> ===
> Item 2
> http://www.SierraTimes.com
> SierraTimes.com Update
> Direct E-mail Update 01.16.01 15:40 ranch time
>
> High Court Refuses to Hear Church's Tax Case Appeal
> Indianapolis Baptist Temple faces foreclosure for refusing to collect
> employees' tax contributions on religious liberty grounds.
>
> By Beliefnet News Services
>
> WASHINGTON, Jan. 16 -- The U.S. Supreme Court Tuesday refused a
> request by
> members of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple to hear an appeal of a
> federal
> judge's foreclosure order.The justices meet in conference to decide
> which
> cases among hundreds will be granted a hearing during its spring
> session,
> but did not include the Baptist Temple case among those it choose to
> hear.The
> Baptist Temple was appealing a judge's order that U.S. marshals seize
> church
> property to settle a $6 million tax debt.Roughly 80 church members
> were
> attending a worship service Tuesday morning when the senior pastor,
> the Rev.
> Greg A. Dixon, received word of the Supreme Court decision on his
> cell
> phone,
> the Indianapolis Star reported."I fully expect the federal marshals
> to come
> in at (any) given time" Dixon said "We're going to mourn the death of
> religious liberty."Two members of the high court, including Chief
> Justice
> William Rehnquist, had already turned down the church's previous
> request for
> an emergency stay of the foreclosure.There was speculation that once
> the
> possibility of a hearing by the high court was erased, federal
> marshals
> would
> move quickly to seize the church's property. However, there was no
> immediate
> sign of police or federal agents around the church.U.S. Marshal Frank
> Anderson repeatedly has said the marshals will seize the church when
> the
> timing will minimize any risk of injuries.
>
> The U.S. Department of Justice says the church owes about $6 million
> in
> back taxes, interest and penalties because church leaders have
> refused to
> collect employee withholding and Social Security taxes.U.S. District
> Judge
> Sarah Evans Barker ordered members to vacate the church by Nov. 14
> and gave
> federal marshals permission to use any necessary force to take
> possession of
> the building.As members of the church have maintained a protective
> vigil
> inside the temple for the past nine weeks, the issue has attracted
> national
> attention from various religious and anti-tax groups. Church members
> have
> argued that the federal government has violated its constitutional
> right to
> the free exercise of religion. Moreover, pastor Gregory A. Dixon has
> said
> that since temple members recognize Jesus Christ as the only
> authority over
> the church, the withholding of taxes would impose a secular
> control.Founded
> in 1950, the 1,000-member Baptist Temple owns 22 acres and has a
> half-dozen
> pastors on staff.
>
> The church Web site describes the congregation as "an unregistered
> Baptist
> congregation whose head is not the state, but the Lord  Jesus Christ.
> The
> Indianapolis Baptist Temple does not participate in  government
> programs.
>
> "The Web site adds: "The Indianapolis Baptist Temple is a New
> Testament
> congregation made up of scripturally baptized believers. We exist to
> exalt
> Jesus Christ, edify the saints through the Word of God and evangelize
> our
> world. We must not veer from our God-given mandate."The Indianapolis
> Baptist
> Temple is congregational in practice which simply means the people
> under the
> leadership of the Pastor are responsible for all decisions, activity
> and
> service."A New Testament congregation should be militant, which
> simply means
> believers should aggressively 'contend for the faith' as they exalt
> Christ,
> edify saints and evangelize the world."
>
> This has been a Special Report by Sierra Times.com
>
> ===
> Item 3
> January 16, 2001
>
> http://www.starnews.com/news/articles/templepm0116.html
>
> High court refuses to hear church's appeal
>
> Staff Report / The Indianapolis Star News
>
>
> The U.S. Supreme Court has refused a request by members of the
> Indianapolis Baptist Temple to hear an appeal of a federal judge's
> foreclosure order.
>
> The justices meet in conference to decide which

[CTRL] Waco Prosecutor Indicted for Obstruction

[MICHAEL SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-

http://www.foxnews.com/national/110900/waco.sml>http://www.foxnews.com/na
tional/110900/waco.sml

Waco Prosecutor Indicted for Obstruction
Thursday, November 9, 2000


A former federal attorney has been charged with obstructing the
investigation into the botched 1993 seige at the Branch Davidian
compound at Waco, Texas that he helped arrange.


AP/Wide World Former assistant U.S. attorney Bill Johnston was
charged with obstruction for covering up evidence in the Branch
Davidian probe.

Former assistant U.S. Attorney Bill Johnston was charged with two
counts of obstruction of justice and three counts of lying to
investigators and a federal grand jury.

The indictment was returned Wednesday as Waco special counsel
John C. Danforth released his final report absolving the
government of wrongdoing in the siege.

Attorney Michael Kennedy, while acknowledging that prosecutor
Johnston made mistakes in his dealings with the special counsel,
called the charges baseless and unfair.

"Danforth seeks to destroy the messenger and whitewash the
governmental excesses of Waco," he said. "While Bill's mistakes
were harmless, the same cannot be said for so many other
government employees, who today are merely chastised or ignored
completely by Mr. Danforth."

Johnston helped draft the search warrant that the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms tried to execute on Feb. 28, 1993,
at the Waco compound. The failed raid turned into a gunfight in
which four federal agents and six Davidians were killed.

The shootout sparked the 51-day standoff that ended on April 19,
1993, with a fire that consumed the compound, killing sect leader
David Koresh and some 80 followers inside.

Johnston in 1994 helped convict nine Davidians during their
criminal trial.

In 1999, federal Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. ordered the government
to give him all records and evidence connected with the standoff.
Johnston then complained publicly that the Justice Department was
covering up evidence showing FBI agents had fired pyrotechnic
tear gas at the compound.

Justice Department and FBI officials denied for years that the
government had used anything capable of sparking fires when they
employed tanks and tear gas to try to end the standoff.

The FBI's subsequent confirmation that some pyrotechnic tear gas
was used prompted Attorney General Janet Reno to ask Danforth to
investigate.

In July, Danforth in a preliminary report absolved the government
of blame in the blaze. A week earlier, an advisory jury hearing a
$675 million wrongful-death lawsuit brought by surviving cult
members and the victims' families reached the same conclusion.

Johnston left the U.S. attorney's office in February and
Danforth's investigators questioned him repeatedly. He admitted
in July that he had withheld several pages of notes from 1993
dealing with the FBI's use of pyrotechnic gas.

A congressional report issued last week praised Johnston for
helping reveal the use of pyrotechnics but condemned his failure
to surrender the notes, which indicated he was told in 1993 that
FBI agents fired several incendiary military tear gas grenades.

"I don't perceive him as a whistle-blower," Danforth said.
"Because I think the meaning of whistle-blower is somebody who
brings into the light things that were hidden. The allegations in
this indictment are to the contrary: somebody who hides things."

Johnston said in a statement Wednesday that he withheld the notes
out of fear that hostile colleagues might try to use what he had
written to discredit him. He added that he didn't reveal the
notes to Danforth because his investigators "treated me with the
same loathing and hostility that I had encountered from the
Justice Department."

The Associated Press contributed to this report

=
 Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT

  FROM THE DESK OF:
 *Michael Spitzer*  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  ~~~
  The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
=

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
 http://peach.ease

[CTRL] Waco FLIR: New Test

[Ian Goddard]

-Caveat Lector-

  NewsMax.com reports (below) a little about the findings
  of an "independent" FLIR test conducted by Davidian-legal-
  team experts. Findings in this new test may contradict
  findings of a FLIR test conducted for the Davidian legal
  team on July 20, 2000. Davidian attorney David Hardy sent
  me a CD with video clips of that preliminary FLIR test.

  The Davidian-legal team's preliminary FLIR test found
  (a) no gun-muzzle flashes lasted longer than one video
  frame, (b) people were always visible, even in clothing
  designed to block the IR signature of the body, and (c)
  specular solar reflections on glass produced a bright
  flash... everything that the Vector-Data test found.

  It sounds as if a new test may have got new results.
  Unfortunately the following NewsMax.com report gives
  rather vague and unspecific information about the new
  FLIR test. I have not been sent anything on this new
  test, but here's a quick review of what's available:


  The NewsMax.com report indicates the new test found
  gunshots lasting over 4 times longer than 8 milliseconds,
  which would be about 32 milliseconds, which is still one
  video frame per shot and thus is not inconsistent with
  what the VDS test found. All the ballistic studies I
  can find on the duration of a gun-muzzle thermal flash
  find upper durations to be slightly over 2 milliseconds.
  Some Waco FLIR flashes last 500 times longer than that!
  The findings of this new FLIR test appear to contradict
  the database available to ballistic-science researchers.

  Notably absent from the NewsMax report on the new FLIR
  test is any mention about what was found regarding solar
  reflections. A central argument for why the Waco FLIR
  flashes are gunshots is that solar reflections on glass
  shards cannot be detected by a FLIR. Both the VDS test
  and the preliminary Davidian legal-team test proved that
  that key claim was false -- specular solar reflections
  on glass ARE visible on FLIR as a bright-white flash.

  I believe that people need to know that a major basis
  for the Waco FLIR gunshot claim -- that you cannot see
  solar reflections on FLIR -- has been proven to be 100%
  false. The no-solar-reflection claim was a major reason
  I'd initially signed onto the gunshot claim. But proving
  that you CAN see solar reflections causes a profound shift
  in the underlying logic for the gunshot claim -- what was
  a given (if they can't be reflections the next best option
  is gunshots) suddenly has to stand on its own feet and as
  a result must prove on a flash-by-flash basis that each is
  not a solar reflection. Knowing this fact is essential to
  coming to a truthful conclusion about this matter and yet
  it has been totally ignored by the alternative media.

  It seems the only real new finding in this new FLIR test
  is that people on FLIR "ranged from invisible to barely
  visible." In the VDS test last March, people are some-
  times invisible IF you freeze the frame at one point,
  but as they move from one location to another they are
  detectable. So what is said in the NewsMax.com report is
  not necessarily very different than the VDS-test results.

  The main problem here is that more people are telling you
  what they see and you do not see. It's best to see things
  for yourself, which is why I've done all that I can and,
  to toot my horn a little, more anyone else on Earth to
  make raw Waco FLIR images available to all for free over
  the Internet: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/wacoflir.htm

  I'd not invest anything in the "new evidence" suggested
  in the following NewsMax.com report until the raw data
  is made available to others, particularly to everyone.
  It's my belief that the Branch Davidians are being
  subjected to malpractice that has wasted enormous time
  and resources barking up an empty tree and will probably
  continue to undermine the Davidian's future legal efforts
  and saturate alternative media with provably false claims.


===
FROM: http://www.NewsMax.com/articles/?a=2000/9/26/190545
===

NEWSMAX.COM

New Evidence in Waco Case

Stephan Archer

Wednesday, Sept. 27, 2000

A week ago today, a U.S. District Court upheld the government's
behavior at Waco in the Branch Davidians' $675 million
wrongful-death lawsuit, but a new motion for reconsideration
loaded with "smoking gun" evidence could influence appeals and
keep the saga alive. Michael McNulty, a reporter and documentary
film producer who has brought to light serious questions
regarding the Waco siege, told NewsMax.com there was little
chance Judge Walter Smith Jr. would seriously consider the
evidence in the motion. The point of the motion is to make sure
all the evidence is in the record before the case moves to the
appellate level, he said.

"It ain't over 'til it's over," McNulty said in referring to
evidence he beli

[CTRL] WACO: "Good Shot" Update

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]
Note:  We store 100's of related "conspiracy posts" at:
http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/oldprojects/recentmail.html

From: "Ian Goddard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO: "Good Shot" Update
Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 5:01 AM


   FURTHER CONFIRMATION OF "GOOD SHOT" ON WACO SWAT TAPE

   (c) 8/28/00 Ian Williams Goddard

   On August 4th I posted an audio file from a videotape
   made by a member of the FBI SWAT team at a sniper nest
   outside Mount Carmel in Waco on the day that Mt Carmel
   burned down (http://www.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.htm).
   The cameraman is a couple hundred yards from Mt Carmel.
   On the tape, as you watch Mt Carmel burn a gunshot sound
   is heard followed by voices near the camera that appear
   to say "Good shot?" followed by "A good shot!" This may
   be a snipper asking his spotter if his shot hit a target
   followed by the spotter confirming it was "a good shot."

   After I posted that audio I contacted Mark Swett. [1]
   Swett is one of the people who transcribed audio tapes
   from bugs planted inside Mt Carmel. His transcriptions
   suggest that the Davidians started the fire. About the
   "good shot" audio track, Mark reported the following:

 "I picked up five shots. The beginning of the
 audio has what may be a shot that I include in
 the five - most in the distance, but one towards
 the end is closer to the video mic. The dialogue
 sounds like 'good shot' followed by 'good try.'"

   The straightforward interpretation of men near the
   camera saying "Good shot ... Good try" is basically
   the same as their saying "Good shot? ... A good shot!"
   with the exception that in the first case the shot was
   a miss. Both interpretations suggest a scene where men
   are shooting at targets and commenting on the accuracy
   of the shots. About another audio clip from the same
   SWAT-team tape, [2] Mark Swett offered this analysis:

 "I picked up six shots. The dialogue sounds
 like 'Bullseye' twice followed by 'ha-ha-ha.'
 The last portion is heard as 'good hit.'"

   Having found possible evidence of Davidian culpability in
   his analysis of the Mt Carmel audio tapes, nobody could
   rightfully suggest Swett hears what he wants to hear due
   to an anti-government bias, and the easiest explanation
   for what he and others of us hear is that the voices are
   some men a couple hundred yards from Mt Carmel shooting
   at targets and commenting on the accuracy of the shots.
   Moreover, if Swett's hearing of gunshots further and
   closer is accurate, a possible interpretation is that
   not all shots heard can be attributed to coming from one
   location, such as Mt Carmel, and thus they may be either
   a long-range gunfight or shots from several sniper nests.


   OTHER INTERPRETATIONS OF SWAT-TAPE AUDIO

   While the majority of respondents agree that they hear
   "Good shot," someone suggested that the two statements
   are "I been shot" followed by "I've been shot." The
   second statement can sound like that if you listen with
   that in mind. However, after using the "noise reduction"
   function in the Goldwave.com program, [3] I could not
   be more sure that it's: "Good shot? ... A good shot!"

   A big problem with the "I been shot" interpretation
   is explaining why anyone would say that. If it was an
   agent joking around after hearing a Davidian gunshot,
   there is no joking quality to the voice. If it was a
   person actually being shot, there are no sounds that
   follow the alleged "I been shot" statements that would
   corroborate the hypothesis that someone was shot. One
   might expect to hear agonizing moans or cursing if in
   fact the speaker had been shot. Instead there is no
   further talking for some time (except as a voice breaks
   in over a police-type radio), and when the voices in
   the background return, the atmosphere is casual and
   you even hear people laughing. Nobody got shot there.

   Other suggested interpretations are "Got a shot" or
   "Gun shot" instead of "Good shot." Let me know what
   you hear: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.wav
   Same file with Goldwave.com "noise reduction" applied:
   http://egroups.com/files/WacoInvestigations/goodshot4.wav


   HEAR AND SEE THIS WACO EVIDENCE FOR YOURSELF

   I recently acquired a second VCR so I could fulfill
   several requests for copies of the SWAT-team tape and
   the Waco FLIR. If you are interested in copies of the
   Waco SWAT-Team video or the Waco FLIR, I can send you
   a copy, all I ask is 7 dollars per tape (check or m.o.
   to Ian Goddard, PO Box 10235, Rockville, MD 20849-0235)
   to cover all costs. Each tape is approximately an hour.
   My master copy of the Waco FLIR is a copy of Davidian
   attorney James Brannon's copy and the visual clarity
   is superio

[CTRL] Waco FLIR - reply

[Ian Goddard]

-Caveat Lector-

  Hello CTRL list members,

  I recently ran into the following response to an
  email I wrote back in June after I discovered that
  the flash sequence on the 1993 Waco FLIR that has
  been said to be a machinegun shooting people trying
  to escape from the rear is actually reflections on
  a highly-reflective surface that flaps in the wind
  and periodically reflects the sun (flashes) during
  the time that the wall panel the reflective surface
  is attached to rests on the ground. Since then
  I also discovered that the claim on Waco: A New
  Revelation that the DoJ report says 15 bodies were
  found shot to death near the rear exit is also false,
  instead the DoJ report lists 0 bodies near the rear exit,
  hence that alleged bit of corroborating evidence is just
  as unreal as the alleged gunmen shooting at the rear exit.

  Here's my reply to a reply to a report I wrote last June:

==
Richard Fleetwood wrote:

> >  That flash series is emphasized by
> >  Dr. Edward Allard in both "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" and "Waco: A
> >  New Revelation."
> > .   I've come to the sobering conclusion, after analysis of (1) a
> newly-
> >  acquired 1993 Waco FLIR video, (2) gunshots seen in the Somalia FLIR
> >  shown on "Waco: A New Revelation" and (3) the Vector Data Report, that
> >  ALL of the flashes in question on the 1993 Waco FLIR can be shown to be
> >  or to most-probably be solar reflections, contradicting both my
> >  previously stated position and the conclusions of infrared experts that
> >  the gunshot theory has rested on.
>
>What an arse.
>
>I spent 4 and one-half years in the mid 80's, working in a defense
>electronics firm (not to be named) BUILDING and TESTING FLIR systems, for
>use on several different types of military aircraft.
>
>What does it take to get this complete idiot, and the world full of media
>morons and government wonks to understand that FLIR images show
>HEATNOT light reflections.  Also, don't forget THIS.  If FLIR systems
>in actual use, such as for heat seeking weapons that are hunting down
>enemy hardware, were to spot something oh, lets say the
>SUN.reflecting off a pond, lake, or the ocean, while heading towards
>the an INTENDED targetthen why haven't there been an inordinate amount
>of  lakes, streams, and small fishing villages reported blown up by
>accidentdue to MIS-guided missiles?
>
>The core of most FLIR systems, at least during my time working on them,
>were COMMON MOD systems, based an a Galium Arsenide  receiver system.
>Plenty of research available on THAT.
>
>ITS HEAT HEAT HEAT.not LIGHTnot REFLECTIONSnot GHOSTS...and
>not WONKY WISHES.
>
>Anybody wanna spell it out better for the rest of us?



   IAN: To say flashes seen on FLIR are "solar
   reflections" is not to say they're reflections
   of visible sunlight. The sun emits electromagnetic
   radiation in all wavelengths, not just the visible
   band. The sun emits much more energy in the 8-12
   micron infrared range than the earth emits. The
   Waco FLIR was sensitive to 8-12 micron energy.

   Allard claims that the infrared energy radiating
   from the earth exceeds the IR energy striking the
   earth from the sun, and therefore the background
   temperature of ground behind a glass shard would
   be warmer than a solar reflection on the glass,
   and thus the reflection would NOT produce a flash
   on FLIR measuring an increase in 8-12 mic IR energy.

   What makes his argument persuasive is that it's true
   but only when we're looking at solar energy striking
   the earth spread over the earth's surface. However,
   when looking down a specular solar reflection on a
   highly reflective (low emissive) surface, we're NOT
   looking at the earth as Allard's analysis does, we're
   looking at the hot surface of the sun, and the FLIR
   reads a temperature close to the surface of the sun,
   manifesting on any FLIR as a flash, which is exactly
   what both the VDS FLIR test and a follow-up FLIR test
   conducted by Davidian's legal team confirmed -- solar
   reflections DO produce a flash on a 8-12 micron FLIR.

   The logical and empirical falsification of Allard's
   no-solar-reflection claim results in the collapse of
   the primary argument supporting the claim that the
   flashes are gunshots. When we also consider that the
   durations of Waco FLIR flashes last many times longer
   than real gunshot flashes last, and the fact that
   nothing like people are ever seen near the flashes,
   and that debris that's apparently reflective is in
   each flash location, the FLIR-gunshot case rapidly
   evaporates into nothing but pure misinformation.


GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story

http:

Re: [CTRL] WACO: Gunshot Evidence

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]
Note:  We store 100's of related "conspiracy posts" at:
http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/oldprojects/recentmail.html

From: "Ian Goddard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: WACO: Gunshot Evidence
Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 7:09 AM


I just uploaded the "goodshot.wav" file with multiple
applications of "noise reduction" using the GoldWave.com
program, and named this new file "goodshot4.wav." I used
GoldWave's default settings for the "noise reduction"
effect, applying it about 8 times. I couldn't be more
confident that this is what's said after the gunshot:

   Good shot?  . . .  A good shot!

http://egroups.com/files/WacoInvestigations/goodshot4.wav
Raw audio: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.wav

The first statement is someone asking a question, and the
second is clearly an answer, apparently a confirmation.
I hypothesize that it's sniper and spotter communicating.
It's the "A" in "A good shot!" that allows it to sound
like "I've been shot," as a respondent recently suggested.
Indeed if you say both statements you'll notice that they
have a similar overall rhythm. But it sounds far more
like "A good shot." Observe that you can hear that
the "good" (or "been") word ends with a strong "d."

Also, what one interprets the statements to say needs to
make sense, so if we assume the voice says "I've been shot,"
then who was shot? No agents were reported shot on 4/19/93.
Furthermore, the guy says "__  shot!" and then a few
seconds pass before the radio breaks in, and the guy says
nothing more. He does not even sound shot. Were he shot,
I suspect he'd at least be cursing, if not also moaning.
Apart from the interpretation of "I've been shot," I
don't see any other reason to believe anyone was shot.
There's also no joking quality to the voice as one would
expect if the guy was joking around after hearing a gunshot.

All the qualities of the voices match the scenario that
a sniper is asking his spotter after a shot, "Good shot?"
Then the spotter replies "A good shot!" Then that's that,
they fall silent having exchanged their necessary data:

http://egroups.com/files/WacoInvestigations/goodshot4.wav
Raw audio: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.wav
SWAT member near Sierra-3 says he is "honed to kill":
http://www.egroups.com/files/WacoInvestigations/honed2kill.wav


GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story





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[CTRL] WACO: "Honed to Kill"

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]
Note:  We store 100's of related "conspiracy posts" at:
http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/oldprojects/recentmail.html

From: "Ian Goddard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO: "Honed to Kill"
Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 6:44 AM

Sorry, correct URL this time...

I just uploaded a very important and classic Waco artifact,
an audio file of a segment of the FBI SWAT-team video played
on "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" where a SWAT member brags
that he is: "Honed, honed to a fine edge,  honed to kill."
Uh... honed to what? "HONED TO KILL"!! The guy dresses in
camo like SWAT snipers and is near one of the sniper nests
around Mt Carmel the cameraman visits on 4/19/93 (apparently
the same nest where "Good shot? A good shot!" is heard [*]):

http://www.egroups.com/files/WacoInvestigations/honed2kill.wav

It takes about two minutes to download, but it's worth every
second! We should all save several copies of this critical
and direct evidence of the mentality behind the Waco siege.
First you hear the voice of the cameraman praising a man
who's reclining in the back seat of a vehicle, then you
hear the praised man brag that he is "honed to kill."
Listen to what's said in the praise, it's amazing!
The SWAT member confesses on the last day, 4/19/93.
This audio file is directly from the SWAT video and
sounds better than on my copy of Rules of Engagement.

[*] SWAT-team video: Agents at sniper nest Sierra-3 are
heard saying "Good shot?" and then "A good shot!" after
a gunshot: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.wav


GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story





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[CTRL] Waco Remembered

[Oscar Patterson]

 Original Message 
Subject: Fwd:Waco Remembered
Date: 19 Aug 2000 22:42:31 -
From: "Oscar " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On 18 Aug 2000 00:38:22 - Agent Smiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Subject: Waco Remembered
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (FMARTINO3)
Date: 2000/08/16
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Copyright © 1995 Public Domain

Written by Frank Martino

  Here are the circumstances surrounding the death of twenty-three childen at
Waco, April 19, 1993, much of which was sworn testimony given before a
Congressional hearing:

  a) The FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms (BATF) arranged
for an attack with tanks and helicopter gunships. They were allowed the use of
military weoponry legally only by swearing an affidavit that drug manufacturing
was being done on the site. That claim was not only false but was a deliberate
perjury by the Feds. The ones responsible for that affidavit were neither
prosecuted for the perjury of swearing a false affidavit nor were they fired
from their positions.

   Moreover, the National Guard units which supplied the military equipment and
personel were from the States of Alabama and Texas. Those units were selected
for the reason that they specialized in anti-drug activity, hence the reason
for the perjured affidavit concerning drug manufacturing at Waco. Neither the
governor of Alabama nor the governor of Texas gave consent for the use of the
National Guard at Waco either verbally or in writing, as is required by law
when the National Guard is utilized for any mission other than training.

   The Economy Act requires the Justice Department to reimburse the Department
of Defense for the cost of equipment and personnel support provided to it. The
Justice Department indeed reimbursed the Department of Defense for the use of
National Guard personnel and equipment used at Waco. That tells us that the
personnel and equipment were not under state control at Waco but were indeed
under Federal control. The use of military personnel and equipment for law
enforcement against the American citizenry except in the case of illegal drug
activity is a clear violation of the Posse Commitatus Act.

  The Joint Chief of Staffs approved of the use of National Guard units at Waco
and the National Guard commanders followed their orders. However, it is not
within the powers of the Joint Chief of Staffs to commit National Guard units
into service. Only the Governors of the States or the President of the United
Staes has the legal authority and power to do that.

  Janet Reno swore under oath at the Congressional hearings that the White
House had no roll in the Waco planing or execution. Bill Clinton also stated
publically that he had no role. Some time later, during the investigation of
illegal campaign finances to the Democratic Party, Robert Conrad, head of the
Justice Department's investigation, questioned Clinton about James Riady's
visit to the White House on April 19, 1993, the day on which the farmhouse in
Waco burned. Clinton made the following statement to Conrad about Waco: "I gave
in to the people in the Justice Department who were pleading to go in early,
and I felt personally responsible for what happened, and I still do. I made a
terrible mistake."

  From that statement, the following facts are determined:
a) Janet Reno committed perjury and obstruction of justice when swearing that
the White House was not informed about Waco at the Congressional hearing.
b) Clinton had lied to the public.
c) Clinton violated the Posse Commitatus by directly ordering military
equipment and personnel to assault a farmhouse in Waco.

  The Feds claimed Posse Commitatus was not violated by virtue of Bill Clinton
not signing a sheet of paper, but Bill Clinton, nevertheless, gave the orders.

  b) The Feds staked out the place for two months, watching with binoculars
everyone's coming and going. They swore they never saw Koresh go into town. The
Feds committed perjury.

  c) An unidentified newsman tipped off Koresh's brother-in-law that the Feds
were about to stage a raid. The brother-in-law then telephoned Koresh. Thus the
Feds had compromised security and thusly contributed to the possiblity of a
stand-off. The fact that Koresh knew they were coming was welcomed (if not
planned by the Feds) because they were wanting a media event, which is why they
had arranged for both the tanks and the news media to be there. It is also why
they didn't call off the raid upon learning that Koresh knew. The Feds later
denied knowing of Koresh's knowledge of the raid. The Feds committed perjury.


  d) The Feds knew that the children attended local schools. Had they waited to
serve the warrant the next day, on a Monday instead of a Sunday, the children
would not have been
there. With the children present, they were able to stage a media event with
"hostages."  They staged an event with maximum rather than minimum danger to
the children. By serving the warrant on Sund

[CTRL] WACO: Gunshot Evidence

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: "Ian Goddard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO: Gunshot Evidence
Date: Friday, August 04, 2000 2:27 PM


   The following webpage contains compelling evidence
   of gunfire either at or from Mt Carmel during the
   April 19, 1993 fire, which I've just discovered on
   a tape known as the "FBI SWAT-team videotape." I've
   provided a sound file so that you can hear and judge
   this evidence for yourself. This tape was recorded
   from sniper nest Sierra 3, about 100 yards from Mt
   Carmel. First you'll hear the apparent crack of
   a gunshot followed by one or two people that
   say "GOOD SHOT" then "GOOD SHOT" again:

   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.htm
   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.wav

   After that you hear a voice that comes in over a
   police-type radio at the sniper's nest that says:
   "We have rounds cooking off or shots being fired."
   That speaker is apparently at another location.
   Please download and save that sound file. There
   is a lot of background noise, so listen closely,
   and you'll want to listen to it several times.
   I experienced a few distortions in some runs
   of this clip while hearing it via Netscape.

   A Brief Overview of The Evidence Presented Above

   Perhaps the most dedicated Waco researcher I've ever
   known was Richard Sanford, a retired nuclear physicist
   and fellow founding member of the Committee for Waco
   Justice (CWJ). [*] It was a great loss to us all when
   Richard died of a sudden heart attack last week, on
   July 25th. Richard's fiancee donated to the CWJ all
   of Richard's Waco files including the FBI SWAT-team
   video examined at the webpage above, which Richard
   acquired a few years ago from attorney Linda Thompson,
   who acquired it from the government in a FOIA release.

   The FBI SWAT-team video was made by an agent who brought
   his own camcorder to the Waco scene and from sniper nest
   Sierra 3 he taped the Mount Carmel Center as it burned.
   As I viewed the full tape a few days ago for the first
   time, while the fire is seen burning I heard what sounds
   like the sharp crack of a gunshot followed by one or two
   people that say "good shot" and then "good shot" again,
   the second time even louder and clearer than the first.
   Wow! Here we have a tape from a known sniper nest and
   in the background we hear what clearly appears to be
   a gunshot followed by people saying "Good shot." The
   easiest explanation is also the most disturbing.
   A range of possible explanations are explored:

   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/goodshot.htm

   There are other apparent gunshots heard a few moments
   after the shot discussed above, and those shots were
   presented in Linda Thompson's video "Waco II: The Big
   Lie Continues," and they can be heard at this website:

http://geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/1543/f_agents/shooter.htm

   About those gunshots, Linda Thompson says: "Listen to
   the FBI SWAT-team tape as the fire burns. Shots can be
   heard from nearby and echoing off the house. That means
   shots were being fired at the house, not from the house."

   ___
   [*] The Committee For Waco Justice:
   http://kreative.net/carolmoore/cwj-info.html
   http://kreative.net/carolmoore/cwj-photos.html


GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story






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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] WACO: Public Access Now!

[Oscar]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:05:39 -0500 (CDT) Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://users.erols.com/igoddard/flir-osc.htm

July 24, 2000

Special Counsel John Danforth
Office of Special Counsel
200 N Broadway 15th Floor
St Louis, MO 63102

Dear Mr Danforth,

Your Office of Special Counsel appointed by the U.S.
Attorney General to investigate Waco and the 1993 Waco
FLIR should make the full FLIR videotape and the Vector
Data Systems (VDS) report -- which were paid for by the
public -- available to the public over the Internet. Both
the FLIR and the VDS report, which your office authorized,
are on CDs (digitized) and thus could be posted to your
website. [1]

Your interim report asks the public to agree with your
conclusion that the FLIR shows no gunshots and yet it does
not contain any of the actual evidence that you needed to
come to that conclusion. [1] I do not see why the public
should be asked to come to a conclusion about the FLIR
without having the same access to the FLIR and VDS report
that you had and needed. Considering that this material
exists in a computer-file format, is there any reason why
this important public property cannot be made available
to its owners over the Internet?

I agree with your conclusion that the Waco FLIR flashes are
reflections, [2] however, I was only able to believe that
after I acquired a good copy of the Waco FLIR. It therefore
seems to me that those who are still concerned that the Waco
FLIR shows government gunshots and who do not have access to
the entire FLIR and VDS report should not be asked or
expected to accept mere words of denial from a government-
appointed office, such as those in your report.

Mr Danforth, please address public concerns about the 1993
Waco FLIR by making the full FLIR and the full Vector Data
report -- which were paid for by The People -- available to
The People over the Internet so that they are given the same
opportunity you had and needed to come to a conclusion about
the Waco FLIR. This would define your report as a good-faith
effort to address public concern; and moreover, it would
give the public what they need to agree with your findings
regarding the Waco FLIR.

Thank you sir for your time and attention.

Sincerely,

Ian Goddard

[1] OSC Interim Waco Report: http://osc-waco.org

[2] Ian Goddard Report: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/wacoflir.htm

===
THE WACO FLIR FLASHES: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacoflir.htm
===

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[CTRL] Waco FLIR Gunmen? FLIR Flashes (5)

[Oscar]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:00:01 -0500 (CDT) Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   The most important of the 1993 Waco FLIR flashes
   (flashes seen on infrared video taken over Waco)
   are the few flashes associated with objects that
   might be said to look like gunmen. Those flashes
   at Location 2 are the highlight of the gunshot
   interpretation of the Waco FLIR flashes presented
   on the popular Waco documentaries.  The gunshot
   interpretation of those flashes is supported by
   several infrared experts. But are the objects
   said to be gunmen really gunmen and are the
   flashes on those objects really gunshots?

   See the most detailed analysis available
   of the premier flashes on the Waco FLIR:

   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/flirloc2.htm

   Also see The Waco FLIR Flashes homepage, which is
   coming together and includes links to all Waco-
   FLIR-flash analyses available on the web. There's
   also an exhaustive chronological listing of over
   100 media reports covering the Waco FLIR flashes:

   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacoflir.htm



*** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material
is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest
in receiving the included information for research and educational
purposes. Feel free to distribute widely but PLEASE acknowledge the
source. ***

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/smilinks/thirdeye.html

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==
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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[CTRL] Waco: Court Cuts Prison Time

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: Court Cuts Prison Time
Date: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 5:38 AM


   The Associated Press reports: "The Supreme Court today
   [6/5/00] set aside the lengthy prison sentences given to
   five Branch Davidians who survived a 1993 siege at the
   sect's Waco, Texas, compound. The court ruled that a
   federal judge misused an anti-gun law to increase their
   punishment." [*] That same judge, Walter Smith, who the
   Supreme Court has just found to have misused the law to
   wrongfully imprison surviving Davidians is the SAME judge
   who is now presiding over the Davidian's suit against the
   government. The Supreme Court's decision would seem to be
   grounds for the removal of judge Smith from presiding over
   the current suit brought by Davidians against the government.

   [*] Associated Press: Davidians' Sentences Set Aside
   http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/2605/pl/scotus_davidians_1.html
   http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3249-2000Jun5.html

   Dallas Morning News: Judges cut terms of 5 Davidians
   http://dallasnews.com/waco/91406_davidians_06te.html

   Juror in sect members' federal trial applauds Supreme
   Court decision http://dallasnews.com/waco/91538_jury_tex06.ART.html

  **
  Visit Ian Williams Goddard > http://www.erols.com/igoddard
  __

"The more restrictions and prohibitions in the world,
  the poorer people get."  Lao Tzu  (Tao Te Ching)





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***

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] WACO: Davidian Gunfire? FLIR Reflections (3)

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO: Davidian Gunfire? FLIR Reflections (3)
Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:40 AM

FLIR Flashes Said To Be Davidian Gunfire Now On Internet

When I saw Davidian gunfire on the Waco FLIR listed in
Carlos Ghigliotti's report, I thought those flashes would
establish a benchmark for what gunshots look like. What I
found instead was a striking lesson in the geometry of solar
reflections. Flashes said to be Davidian gunfire are on bare
roof (away from but below probably broken windows) and they
always occur only when the FLIR-mounted aircraft is in one
area, exactly as it would be if the flashes are a result of
the camera passing through reflected beams of solar energy.
I believe that the examples of the consistency of flashes
to the camera's angle you will see at the following page
decisively confirm that the alleged Davidian gunshots are
solar reflections: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/flirloc9.htm



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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] [WACO TRAIL UPDATE] Firing at shadows: the raid on Waco (fwd)

[MICHAEL SPITZER]

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:50:17 -0700
From: American Patriot Friends Network <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: American Patriot Friends Network <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [WACO TRAIL UPDATE] Firing at shadows: the raid on Waco

Firing at shadows: the raid on Waco
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0006/22/world/world05.html

Waco Plaintiffs Wrap Up Testimony
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/2622/us/waco_trial_22.html

Branch Davidian raid heard on 911 tape
http://dallasnews.com/waco/99776_waco.html
http://dallasnews.com/waco/99956_wacowire.html

Agents admit firing blindly into windows
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/584031

The Branch Davidian Trial
by Egon Richard Tausch
E.R. Tausch was a court observer during the Waco trial. This article
is a description of what events he witnessed during the trial.
http://www.shadeslanding.com/firearms/waco.tausch.html

Judge orders anonymous jury in Branch Davidian trial 12/14/93
http://www.morningnews.com/specials/waco/trial/trial5.htm

Branch Davidian trial notable for omissions
Decisions were part of lawyers' strategies  02/22/94
By Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.morningnews.com/specials/waco/trial/trial94.htm

Branch Davidian Trial Transcripts
http://start.at/mt.carmel

REVELATION 10:7

but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he shall
begin to sound the mystery of God should be fineshed as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets.
http://issop.tzo.com/users/rorrim/koresh.htm

Was Vector Data Systems BOUGHT OFF by the BATF?
http://issop.tzo.com/users/rorrim/vector.htm

Six-member jury picked for Waco suit against U.S.
The judge asked potential jurors if they had lost a child or been in a
dispute with the government. By Sherri Chunn  ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://web.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/06/20/national/WACO20.htm

 WHY WACO? 

APFN WHY WACO PAGES & LINKS:
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/wacopg.htm

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
If you would like to pledge a contribution to APFN:
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/contributions.htm
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Big response to Mark Swett, and a veritable compendium of materials
that Mr. Bradford and Judge Smith most assuredly DO NOT want you to see.
http://waco93.com/wwwboard/messages/141.html

Judges cut terms of 5 Davidians 6/6/00
http://dallasnews.com/waco/91406_davidians_06te.html

Juror in sect members' federal trial
applauds Supreme Court decision 6/6/00
http://dallasnews.com/waco/91538_jury_tex06.ART.html

>><
> WE WANT A CITIZENS INVESTIGATION - NEED FUNDING!<
> ~~~CONTACT~~~ David Hall, Producer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]<
> WACO INCIDENT - INVESTIGATIVE VIDEO PROVES CS GAS   <
> KILLED THE CHILDREN - Tel: 580-767-8827 - FAX: 767-8846 <
> http://www.kpoc-tv.com  <
>><

Take a moment to picture this...
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html

REBUILD THE CHURCH
http://www.rebuildthechurch.com

Frozen Courts And WACO In Mind
http://home.earthlink.net/~mahlers/womp7.htm

Waco -- Operation Showtime
http://www.ameriroots.com/issues/waco.html

Waco - For the Children
http://www.alamanceind.com/nation/nation_6.html

>Branch Davidian Trustees Message Board:
>http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb669944

*** WACO - Please take a moment to picture this...
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html

Rebuild Mt. Carmel - Alex Jones
http://www.infowars.com

A couple of Faces from the Waco Holocaust
http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37e95bfe7c15.htm?&;

The Konformist Waco & The Drug Mafia
http://www.konformist.com/vault/wacodrug.htm

* The US military was at Waco

  The initial reaction of virtually every
  person who hears about Clark's involvement
  in the attack on the Mt. Carmel Center of the
  Branch Davidians outside of Waco, Texas is
  surprise and/or disbelief: "I thought it
  was an ATF/FBI operation that went wrong
  and all the military did was lend a few
  tanks."
http://www.brasscheck.com/clarkatwaco.html

WACO and the U.S. MILITARY---the  UNHOLY THREEE,
Hillary Rodham Clinton, Webster Hubbell, and Vincent W. Foster,Jr.
Sherman Skolnick's Report
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/waco.html

WACO MASSACRE ARCHIVES 1999
http://prorev.com/waco.htm

ASHES OF WACO (THE)
http://rampages.onramp.net/~djreavis/
WACO SOUND FILES 911 TAPES EXCERPTED
http://rampages.onramp.net/~djreavis/sndclips.html
CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS
http://rampages.onramp.net/~djreavis/Congress.html
EORONETH ON WACO
http://members.tripod.com/~Eoroneth/koresh.html

Mt. Carmel (Branch Davidian Trustees - Website)
  Email: "Mt Carmel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://start.at/mt.carmel

http://homepages.go.com/~wikk3/hollings.htm#other

Background
During the 1993 assault, standoff, and siege at Waco, Texas bet

[CTRL] Waco FLIR Source

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco FLIR Source
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 4:18 AM


It's interesting to note that the source of the Waco FLIR "evidence"
was ex-CIA director William Colby and his inside CIA contacts. Could
Colby have been duped with a lousy copy of the FLIR and assurance
that these flashes (solar reflections) are gunshots, leading him
to take action to expose the apparent crime, with evidence that
would mislead the government's opponents and fall apart after
legal teams staked their case on innocent solar reflections?
(Is that the "wrong" question or what! :-)  Here are some
relevant quotes about the source of the Waco FLIR "evidence"
from an investigator for one of the legal teams bringing suit
for wrongful death who filed the FLIR in court, Gordon Novel:

   "In December 1995, Colby gave us one of the first major
   chunks of evidence: the FLIR tape that shows the FBI
   machine-gunning the women and children that were trying
   to get out of the vault in the rear of the building... "
   Source: American Freedom, October 1996, page 10.

   "Colby gave me the FLIR tape in December. My attorneys
   in New Orleans were told very clearly that the tape was
   coming from an ex-CIA director. They were only interested
   in the evidence, and not really concerned where I was
   getting the evidence from. Colby initially wanted the
   tape to go to Eugene Grassley, the Republican senator
   on the Senate Judiciary Committee from Iowa. ... [Colby]
   had supplied the tape and all the evidence in the case..."
   Source: American Freedom, December 1996, page 10.

   "There were about 76 undeniable bursts of machine gun
   fire, and they're on the government tape that was
   introduced into the recrod. It takes special technology
   that someone in the Technical Services Directorate or
   somewhere in the CIA had discovered, using high tech
   equipment to amplify the flashes from the machine
   guns, which were all probably silenced weapons."
   Source: American Freedom, October 1996, page 10.

This article gives other details from Novel on the FLIR:
http://mysa.com/mysanantonio/extras/waco/012300waco.shtml

Carol Valentine has long claimed that the FLIR is a Govt trick:
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/doc/wtroe.html
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/page/b_wsws.html


A Few More Observations About The 1993 Waco FLIR Flashes:

One of the more emphasized features of the 1993 Waco FLIR flashes
is that many move toward Mount Carmel, just as one might expect a
gun flash to propagate from its muzzle toward the target, in this
case being Mt Carmel. So it was assumed by several experts that
the flashes must be guns shooting toward Mt Carmel. However, a
feature of all those flashes is that they all happen when the
aircraft is in one region of the sky, and all moving flashes
move in one direction viewed frame by frame: left to right.
Question: in what direction would a reflection of the sun in
its position over Mt Carmel move across a reflective surface
on the ground when viewed from the region of sky and direction
of motion of the FLIR aircraft? Answer: left to right. Therefore,
flashes with a left-to-right propagation toward Mt Carmel would
be an expected feature of reflections seen from objects when
viewed from all the angles the aircraft viewed the flashes.

Regarding the fact that two flashes occur at Location 8 separated
by twelve minutes with the camera in virtually the same location,
one respondent raised the important point that the Earth's motion
over twelve minutes would mean the camera needs to be in a different
position to catch the same reflected beam twelve minutes later. Well,
the camera is in a different position, slightly different, but what
you'd expect to see for the displacement of a reflected solar beam
over twelve minutes. See: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/flirloc8.htm
Direct link to graphic: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/flir804.gif
The angle of the camera in the second frame is slightly different.


GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story

To subscribe send email with "subscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]






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***

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   Explore Our Archive:  

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CTRL is

[CTRL] Waco FLIR Reflections (2)

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco FLIR Reflections (2)
Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 4:54 AM


  On the April 19, 1993 Waco FLIR video a large flash occurs in the
  courtyard of Mt Carmel at 11:26 am. Twelve minutes later another
  large flash occurs in the very same spot. The first of the two
  flashes is shown in the documentary "Waco: A New Revelation,"
  which states that the flash is a detonation that's consistent
  with an exploding grenade. However, the fact that an identical
  flash occurs in the very same location twelve minutes later and
  the fact that the FLIR camera is in virtually the same position
  each time (as would be the case if they're solar reflection) is
  compelling evidence that both of the flashes are the result of
  a single object reflecting infrared energy from the sun rather
  than two grenades detonating in the same spot twelve minutes
  apart exactly when the camera is in the same area. Supporting
  the solar-reflection theory further is that fact that panels
  from a wall with a window have fallen immediately next to
  this flash location, providing compelling evidence that
  glass (which can cause infrared reflections seen on FLIR as
  a flash) was deposited to Flash Location 8. See the evidence
  for yourself: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/flirloc8.htm



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==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] Waco Expert Said Case Was 'Solved'

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: www.newsmax.com web2news.pl 
Subject:  Waco Expert Said Case Was 'Solved'
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 3:39 PM

 Waco Expert Said Case Was 'Solved'
NewsMax.com
   Tuesday, May 30, 2000

"I’ve solved the case," said Carlos Ghigliotti. "I know exactly what happened."

A month later the man who told  Washington Post  reporter Richard Leiby he had wrapped 
up the
case proving the FBI had fired on the Branch Davidian compound as it was being 
consumed in
flames was dead, at the age of 42, of an apparent heart attack.

Not so unusual, Leiby intones. After all, Ghigliotti was a junk food eater who slept 
on an air
mattress in his office.

Initially, police said his death was being treated as a homicide. Later a medical 
examiner
would conclude he died of a heart attack, citing extensive coronary artery blockage 
revealed
during autopsy.

In a wide-ranging story of his extensive contacts with Ghigliotti titled "The Man Who 
Knew Too
Much,  Post  reporter Leiby first learned of his death when he called the man’s office 
and got a
police sergeant instead of Ghigliotti. When Leiby identified himself as a reporter the 
officer
said, "I can't discuss anything with you right now," and hung up.

That was April 28. Leiby quickly learned that Ghigliotti – one of the world’s foremost 
experts o
on the arcane specialty of thermal imaging analysis, was dead. His badly decomposed 
body had been
found dressed in pajamas and lying on an air mattress. He had been dead for some time.

Noting that his phone rang off the hook with calls suggesting that Ghigliotti had met 
with foul
play, the  Post  reporter introduced a theme than ran through his long and detailed 
story – people
questioning the circumstances of the man’s death are "paranoiacs," loonies awash in 
conspiracy theories, t
the X-Files and UFO lore.

Here’s how he put it: "The Internet boiled over with conspiracy theories. ‘Carlos 
Ghigliotti,’ stated one
 typical message, ‘was a man who knew too much.’ On Web sites like 
www.freerepublic.com, his name was pu
t on lists with others who had allegedly perished from 'Arkancide' – that's what the 
paranoiacs called o
ther untimely deaths they'd somehow linked to the Clinton administration."

Yet Leiby, who by his own account was close to Ghigliotti, gives a rather complete 
account of Ghigliotti’s w
ork on the Waco case and the conclusions he reached about the evidence he had examined.

Much of what he reports about Ghigliotti’s informed conclusions about the events of 
that final fiery end o
f the Waco standoff dovetail with what the expert had told lawyer David Hardy and was 
first revealed on
NewsMax.com.

As he had with Leiby in the final weeks of his life, Ghigliotti told Hardy that he had 
solid proof that
the FBI was lying when they claimed they had not fired at the rear part of the flaming 
building.

"Carlos ... had found the holy grail," Hardy wrote.


Full text at: http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/30/105129

Posted with: http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=624997900&fmt=text

http:  www newsmax com articles ?a=2000 5 30 105129 web2news.pl


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==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
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[CTRL] Waco FLIR Reflections/Goddard the Schill

[Gavin Phillips]

I've been very suspicious of Ian Goddard since he cowardly backed down from
his position vis-a-vis TWA 800 about 18 months ago when interviewed by the
mainstream media.

Now he is telling us that the Waco FLIR footage are solar reflections when
that scenario has been discounted by several experts. Edward Allard, Carlos
Ghiglotti,
a solar reflection report mentioned in "Waco: A New Revelation" and my own
eyes.

Goddard mentions the Vetor Data report which is worthless because they are
not an independent company having close ties to the US government.

 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a392480c744aa.htm">Was Vector
Data Systems Bought Off by the BATF? [Free Republic]


According to Dave Hardy Carlos told him the protocols were wrong in the tests.

 http://toogoodreports.com/spotlight/050900.htm">Toogood Reports |
In The Spotlight

"I talked to him after the (British firm's) recreation, and his assessment
was that it was pure junk -- the aircraft wasn't even at the right altitude,
they didn't have the right procedures to verify that the sensor was
functioning comparable to the one of April 19 (1993). (He said) the best
thing that could be done with any resulting tape -- and this is before the
results were known -- was to drop it in the waste can. ...
End quote.

Ghigliotti, who studied the tapes for hundreds of hours was adamant about
gunfire coming from government agents. Gavin.

 http://toogoodreports.com/spotlight/050900.htm">Toogood Reports |
In The Spotlight

Ghigliotti was hired by the House Government Reform Committee to review tapes
of the Waco siege. He made headlines last fall by confirming that government
troops fired into the church on April 19, 1993.

"I conclude this based on the ground view videotapes taken from several
different angles simultaneously and based on the overhead thermal tape,"
Ghigliotti told The Washington Post last October. "The gunfire from the
ground is there, without a doubt."

Ghigliotti said the tapes also confirm Davidians repeatedly fired at FBI
agents during the assault, though he noted return fire came from the building
only on the occasions when government tanks actually penetrated or demolished
the walls. About 80 Branch Davidians perished that day, some from the fire,
others from gunshot wounds.

Goddards full of it. Gavin Phillips.


<< From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

 From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Subject: Waco FLIR Reflections
 Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:26 AM


NON-GUNSHOT CAUSE OF KEY WACO-FLIR FLASHES DISCOVERED

The Vector Data Systems report made no effort to explain
how multiple rapid flashes several times per second could
occur in fixed locations on the ground as seen in the 1993
Waco FLIR tape, which multiple experts say are gunshots.
Recently I proposed this rapid-flash reflection machine
as a non-gunshot causal theory for those rapid flashes:

 http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir07.gif
 http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir03.htm

That reflection machine rapidly vibrates a 1 by 3 foot
reflective panel up and down several times per second,
simulating key flash sequences on the 1993 Waco FLIR. It
isn't likely that such a machine rested next to Mt Carmel!

Shortly after proposing that reflective machine I realized
a far more probable causal hypothesis for the rapid flashes:
the reflective panel isn't being vibrated by a machine, but
by the free gale-force winds blowing through the scene that
day, and thus the panel is flapping like a flag in the wind.
Hypothetical scenario: an infrared-reflecting surface like
mylar is attached to a board and a loose edge is flapping
in the wind with a cyclic "flap rate" identical to the
cyclic rate of key flashes on the Waco FLIR. The flapping
reflective surface produces a rapid series of flashes in
one fixed location as seen by the FLIR camera, resolving
the rapid-flash problem without a machine or a machinegun.

My plan was to acquire mylar and staple a segment edge to
a board with a strong fan on it and see if I might be able
to film it causing rapid flashes of visible light (and thus
presumably also of IR radiation). However, that's no longer
necessary: I just acquired the best version of the 1993 Waco
FLIR I've ever seen, it's dramatically better than the copy
I've had. To my complete astonishment, on the better copy a
flapping panel about 1 by 3 feet attached to a fallen-down
portion of gym wall is visible IN THE EXACT LOCATION THAT
THE MOST INFAMOUS SERIES OF FLASHES OCCUR AS THE FIRE STARTS!
That flash series is emphasized by Dr. Edward Allard in both
"Waco: The Rules of Engagement" and "Waco: A New Revelation."

This flapping panel in the same location as those key
flashes also produces flashes at other times during the
hour before the fire. So it's clear to me that there's a
flapping p

[CTRL] Waco FLIR Reflections

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco FLIR Reflections
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:26 AM


   NON-GUNSHOT CAUSE OF KEY WACO-FLIR FLASHES DISCOVERED

   The Vector Data Systems report made no effort to explain
   how multiple rapid flashes several times per second could
   occur in fixed locations on the ground as seen in the 1993
   Waco FLIR tape, which multiple experts say are gunshots.
   Recently I proposed this rapid-flash reflection machine
   as a non-gunshot causal theory for those rapid flashes:

http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir07.gif
http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir03.htm

   That reflection machine rapidly vibrates a 1 by 3 foot
   reflective panel up and down several times per second,
   simulating key flash sequences on the 1993 Waco FLIR. It
   isn't likely that such a machine rested next to Mt Carmel!

   Shortly after proposing that reflective machine I realized
   a far more probable causal hypothesis for the rapid flashes:
   the reflective panel isn't being vibrated by a machine, but
   by the free gale-force winds blowing through the scene that
   day, and thus the panel is flapping like a flag in the wind.
   Hypothetical scenario: an infrared-reflecting surface like
   mylar is attached to a board and a loose edge is flapping
   in the wind with a cyclic "flap rate" identical to the
   cyclic rate of key flashes on the Waco FLIR. The flapping
   reflective surface produces a rapid series of flashes in
   one fixed location as seen by the FLIR camera, resolving
   the rapid-flash problem without a machine or a machinegun.

   My plan was to acquire mylar and staple a segment edge to
   a board with a strong fan on it and see if I might be able
   to film it causing rapid flashes of visible light (and thus
   presumably also of IR radiation). However, that's no longer
   necessary: I just acquired the best version of the 1993 Waco
   FLIR I've ever seen, it's dramatically better than the copy
   I've had. To my complete astonishment, on the better copy a
   flapping panel about 1 by 3 feet attached to a fallen-down
   portion of gym wall is visible IN THE EXACT LOCATION THAT
   THE MOST INFAMOUS SERIES OF FLASHES OCCUR AS THE FIRE STARTS!
   That flash series is emphasized by Dr. Edward Allard in both
   "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" and "Waco: A New Revelation."

   This flapping panel in the same location as those key
   flashes also produces flashes at other times during the
   hour before the fire. So it's clear to me that there's a
   flapping panel attached to a fallen board that creates an
   illusion of machinegun-fire as its moving surface causes
   a beam of reflected infrared energy to pass repeatedly
   over the FLIR sensor, just like the panel on the reflection
   machine I proposed http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir07.gif ,
   except the panel next to Mt Carmel was powered by the wind.

   The existence of this flapping panel, or perhaps a segment
   of mylar, is not mentioned in the Vector Data report, which
   made no effort to explain the critical factor of the rapid,
   machinegun-like nature of the flashes on the 1993 Waco FLIR.

   I've come to the sobering conclusion, after analysis of
   (1) a newly-acquired 1993 Waco FLIR video, (2) gunshots
   seen in the Somalia FLIR shown on "Waco: A New Revelation"
   and (3) the Vector Data Report, that ALL of the flashes in
   question on the 1993 Waco FLIR can be shown to be or to
   most-probably be solar reflections, contradicting both my
   previously stated position and the conclusions of infrared
   experts that the gunshot theory has rested on. I'll shortly
   publish an illustrated webpage explaining this conclusion,
   which is supported in large by facts not covered in the
   Vector Data report, and thus shall not be repetitive, and
   shall address key FLIR issues of concern to Waco watchers.

  
  GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm
  
  Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story

  to subscribe send email with "subscribe" to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






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***

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[CTRL] Waco: The Vector Data Hoax

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: The Vector Data Hoax
Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000 1:13 PM


  Here's more on the blatant fraud being perpetrated on the
  American people that the 1993 Waco FLIR flashes have been
  subjected to an "independent analysis" by an "independent
  company," when in fact it's nothing of the kind. Why, if
  there are in fact no gunshots on the FLIR, would blatant
  fraud be necessary to convince American of that fact?
  Gee, it must mean their analysis is truthful, right?

  http://www.infowars.com/vectordata.html

  Also see: http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir02.htm


===
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Subject: Was Vector Data Systems BOUGHT OFF by the BATF?
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Please send as far and wide as possible.

Thanks,

Robert Sterling
Editor, The Konformist
http://www.konformist.com


http://www.infowars.com/vectordata.html

---

Was Vector Data Systems BOUGHT OFF by the BATF?

By Ed Hohmann

InfoWars.com has learned that the supposedly independent British company
hired by the Justice Department to analyze the March 19, 1999 Fort Hood
FLIR video is actually a Washington, DC-area defense contractor with
ties to the BATF. Vector Data Systems is a division of Anteon
Corporation, a professional technical services corporation staffed with
4,000 highly trained employees in more than 70 offices and government
sites worldwide.

The Fort Hood FLIR video project was staged by the government in order
to counter the evidence presented in two documentary films produced by
Michael McNulty that show clear evidence of government gunfire during
the Mt. Carmel Massacre on April 19, 1993.

The first film, Waco: The Rules of Engagement, released in 1997,
contains Dr. Edward Allard's expert analysis of the government's FLIR
video taken during the Mt. Carmel Massacre. A former deputy director of
the U.S. Defense Department's Night Vision Laboratory and a pioneer in
the field of infrared thermal imaging who holds several patents on FLIR
technology, Dr. Allard presents conclusive evidence that the
government's own FLIR video shows multiple gunmen firing machineguns
into the Mt. Carmel church during the massacre.

The second film, Waco: A New Revelation, contains additional condemning
analysis of the FLIR video, plus new information concerning the use of
pyrotechnic devices and demolition charges by the government forces.
During the film's production in 1999, McNulty's ongoing investigations
triggered the release of dramatic evidence that the government had long
been suppressing. A domino effect occurred as more and more skeletons
fell out of the government's closet. The publicity surrounding these
events focused increased attention on the Mt. Carmel massacre, not only
in the free press, but in the controlled mass media outlets as well.

Although several other excellent documentaries have been made about the
Mt. Carmel Massacre, it is without a doubt that the two Waco films have
done more than anything else to convince skeptics that the American
government engaged in the deliberate murder of innocent people at Mt.
Carmel. Dr. Edward Allard's detailed point-by-point description
accompanying the clear FLIR video images of machinegun fire leave the
viewer with no doubts that government killers were at work there that day.

The popular television show CBS 60 Minutes lost credibility in many
people's eyes when Waco: The Rules of Engagement exposed their
suppression of a 1996 FLIR analysis by Infraspection Institute that they
themselves had commissioned. In January 2000, CBS 60 Minutes II aired a
segment that contained new testimony by Paul Beaver, a British military
night vision expert. Both the suppressed Infraspection Institute report
and Paul Beaver's analysis concluded that the FLIR video showed gunfire
being directed into the Mt. Carmel church.

In order to stem the rising tide of public awareness that government
forces had deliberately murdered men, women, and children at Mt. Carmel,
two new government operations were begun. The House Government Reform
Committee, chaired by Rep. Dan Burton, opened up an investigation into
the massacre, and US Attorney General Janet Reno hired John Danforth to
act as an independent counsel to investigate her and her own
organization's involvement. It would be necessary for both
investigations to tackle the evidence presented by the 1993 government

[CTRL] Waco: More Media Disinfo

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: More Media Disinfo
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:38 AM


   CNN refers to the study of the Waco FLIR video conducted by
   Vector Data Systems -- which claims that there's no gunfire
   on the 1993 FLIR -- as "an independent study." [1] The term
   "independent" implies that Vector Data does not work for the
   plaintiffs or the defendant, which is government. But in fact
   Vector Data is owned by Anteon Inc, which DOES work for the
   government, including the FBI. [2] The study is therefore
   NOT an independent study. I found that Vector Data works
   for U.S. military intelligence [3] and is even a member
   of the National Military Intelligence Association. [4]

   In short, the impression that the public is being given that
   Vector Data is an independent entity is a total sham, it's
   part of a Big Lie being perpetrated to coverup mass murder.
   To further the impression in the public's mind that Vector
   Data is independent, CNN et al call Vector Data Systems "a
   British company." [1] They may have an office in Britain, but
   as an article citing Anteon's purchase of Vector Data states:

  "Since then, Anteon has acquired Vector Data Systems of Alexandria, Va.,
  in August 1997 and Techmatics Inc. of Fairfax in May 1998." [5]

   Yes, that is the same Vector Data Systems, a subsidiary
   of Anteon Inc., being falsely portrayed as an "independent"
   and "British" company. Every address I can find for Vector
   Data is in Alexandria, VA, not Britain. Even their webpage
   domain is registered to Vector Data Systems of Alexandria,
   VA. This portrait of an objective independent organization
   being pounded into the public mind, making Vector Data's
   findings seem to be unarguably reliable, is a pathetically
   transparent sham being deployed to cover-up a mass murder.

   Find out why Vector Data's claim that the flashes that
   many experts say are gunshots are NOT solar reflections:
   Waco Gunfire Proof: http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir02.htm

   
   [1] http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/05/10/waco.report/index.html
   [2] http://dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/68442_WACO23.html
   [3] http://www.techmatics.com/VDS/VDSprodser.htm
   [4] http://www.rmionline.com/afion_corp
   [5] http://www.wtonline.com/vol13_no24/cover/429-1.html



 If the axiom "power corrupts" is a reliable axiom,
then the Official Story must be suspect on its face.

GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story





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***
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==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
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misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
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effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
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gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] WACO FLIR Gunshot Proof

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO FLIR Gunshot Proof
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:53 AM


  Preventing public oversight of the official "FLIR test"
  and releasing the findings to the public via unsupported
  declarations issued by the media is specifically designed
  to prevent you from being able to know the truth. But you
  can know the truth about the Waco FLIR... right now!

  Simple geometry rules out the possibility that the rapid,
  machine-gun-like flashes on the 1993 Waco FLIR are sunlight
  reflections off debris, which is what the government claims
  they are. Find out why and see through the GovtMedia sham:

http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir02.htm

  This is exactly what the government needs you not to know.
  Please save that page and its graphics and let others know.


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Forwarded for info and discussion from the New Paradigms Discussion List,
not necessarily endorsed by:
***
Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,
Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the
entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date
Lists & E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, & resources.
 To Discuss Ideas:
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://msen.com/~lloyd/
  For Ordering Info & Free Catalog:
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  For Discussion List:
   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   text in body:  subscribe prj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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   Explore Our Archive:  
Every Diet Has Failed!  What Can I do?
Click Below to "Ask Dr. Kathleen"!
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***

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DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] Waco: Death Ruled "Heart Attack"

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: Death Ruled "Heart Attack"
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 3:04 AM


The death of Waco FLIR expert Carlos Ghigliotti has been
ruled a heart attack. The official conclusion was released
on May 11, just one day after the release of the official
Waco-FLIR report by the not-independent firm Vector Data
Systems, which concluded that rapid-flashes on the 1993
Waco FLIR are reflections off debris, not gunshots (see
why they're gunshots http://Ian.Goddard.net/waco/flir02.htm )

FLIR expert had 'heart attack'
Attorneys, researcher claim 'too many coincidences'
http://wnd.com/bluesky_fosters_news/2513_xnfos_flir_exper.shtml

Witnesses for plaintiffs suing the government for
wrongful death in Waco, TX, have had a bad spring:

Dr. Zegel: ALMOST DIED  (March) FLIR expert - blood poisoning
Dr. Allard: ALMOST DIED (March) FLIR expert - heart attack
Ghigliotti: DIED (March-April?) FLIR expert - heart attack
Jack Harwell: DIED (March) Waco sheriff - heart attack

The following quotes indicate that death by "heart attack"
is a common manifestation of chemical assassination:



http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/eng/miscdocs/cbtere.html

...in the case of individual assassinations or low-level attacks,
the possibility of disguising the cause of death. In Livingstone's
words: "A very high index of suspicion would be necessary for a
medical examiner to consider the possibility that an apparent
heart-attack or stroke victim died as the result of being
infected with cobra venom, shellfish toxin, pure nicotine, or
any of dozens of other chemical or biological poisons" ...

=

http://www.ffolio.com/abarchive/tv/spying.html

Saturday 6 February 99: Assassins and Saboteurs

John Henry describes what happens to the target next
­ "He feels immensely short of breath, runs towards
an open window and usually collapses and dies with a
convulsion on the way there." Such technology was
unknown in the West. The dead were often diagnosed
as having suffered a heart attack.

===

http://www.lycaeum.org/books/books/last_circle/circle!.htm

Immediately after May's death, Raymond Lavas, Ted Gunderson's
former forensic's expert, (and a former protege of Robert
Maheu according to Michael Riconociuto) wrote a letter to
one of Michael's friends, expressing his professional opinion
about the death of Michael May. A copy of that letter was
faxed to me and the following excerpts quickly captured my
attention:

"... I don't understand why it's going to take two weeks to
determine May's cause of death. Did you know that certain
chemical assassination methods will have been evaporated out
of the body by that time?

"Then, the cause of death would be ruled as natural, since
the chemical agents are the primary cause that result in a
secondary action such as heart failure, kidney or liver damage, etc.

"Some examples of these agents include BZ2, Ricin, Tropodotoxin,
shellfish toxia and a variety of methlamine based neurotoxinsthat
affect the central nervous system and cause failure of one or
more organs in the human body.

"Some, if not most of these toxins are solvent based [DMSO] and
may be introduced in minute quantities through the skin. Their
effect [may] vary and some toxins take weeks to months to take
effect. Others take moments to damage the nervous system, then
evaporate within hours.

"Unless the body is immediately refrigerated, the toxins are
quickly evaporated, leaving only one or two parts per million
in quantity. Unless there are suspicious circumstances
surrounding the death, a trained forensic expert would never
detect any traces of the toxin.

===
http://www.csis.org/mideast/reports/terror.html

Table Six
Major Chemical Agents - Part One(18)

NERVE AGENTS: Agents that quickly disrupt the nervous system
by binding to enzymes critical to nerve functions, causing
convulsions and/or paralysis. Must be ingested, inhaled, and
absorbed through the skin. Very low does cause a running nose,
contraction of the pupil of the eye, and difficulty in visual
coordination. Moderate doses constrict the bronchi, cause a
feeling of pressure in the chest, and weaken the skeletal
muscles and cause filibration. Large doses cause death by
respiratory or heart failure. (Can be absorbed through
inhalation or skin contact.) Reaction normally occurs in 1-2
minutes. Death from lethal doses occurs within minutes, but
artificial respiration can help and atropine and the oximes
act as antidotes. The most toxic nerve agents kill with a
dosage of only 10 milligrams be minute per cubic meter, versus
400 for l

[CTRL] WACO T-H: Mike Caddell Portrait (fwd)

[MICHAEL SPITZER]

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:34:32 -0400
From: Peter McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

News: Local

Attorney for Davidians well connected with Washington leadership
By MARK ENGLAND Tribune-Herald staff writer Mike Caddell's
commute to work takes all of a couple of minutes, if the signal
light is working.

He lives at the Four Seasons, one of Houston's premier hotels.
His law firm across the street occupies a corner of the 10th
floor at Park Shops Mall, with a luxury-suite view of Enron
Field, the Astros' new ballpark, and sports a gallery for the art
collection of Caddell and his wife, Cynthia Chapman, a partner in
Caddell & Chapman.

A portrait of President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore
hugs a wall outside his office.

Caddell has been invited to the White House almost a dozen times
in the '90s because of his status as a major donor to the
Democratic Party. In 1996, for example, Caddell gave $111,000 to
the Clinton-Gore ticket.

Lined up on a counter underneath the portrait are stacks of bound
documents, part of the discovery for next month's wrongful-death
lawsuit filed by surviving Branch Davidians. Evidence in the case
is stored wherever space can be found. It's even on exhibit on
the floor of the gallery.

Caddell, a rich insider, is the lead plaintiffs' attorney in the
lawsuit against the federal government.

"One reason we've been successful so far is because we are
different from most people pressing this issue," said Caddell,
45. "We are the establishment in many respects. We have
credibility. We have resources. We're not on the fringe. We're
not willing to pursue outrageous allegations. People have been
willing to give this case a second look because we're involved.
We're not cause lawyers running from one cause to the next."

He sees no conflict in suing the administration of a president he
helped elect.

"Contrary to the popular belief of some people, I've never seen a
shred of evidence that Bill Clinton had any significant
involvement in what happened at Mount Carmel," Caddell said.
"Everything we've seen clearly shows the decision-making centered
in the FBI leadership and, ultimately, with Janet Reno. I don't
have a problem going after Reno. I think history will show that
she's one of the worst attorney generals the United States ever
had."

Caddell, lean and with a frat boy's disarming confidence,
strolled through an office of gleaming cherrywood paneling and
granite countertops. He wore faded jeans, a longsleeve
blue-striped shirt and black boots.

A month before trial, he sat behind his desk. He was relaxed and
smiling.

"I didn't take this case to make a political statement," Caddell
said. "Our goal is to win the lawsuit. If we win, that will be a
political statement."

However, he rejected the notion that the $675 million lawsuit is
about money.

"This has never been a case about money," Caddell said. "It's a
case about justice. Everyone will tell you that if you were in it
for the money, the last thing you would do is take this case.
That either makes me incredibly stupid, which I'm not, or
principled about why we took the case."

Not many attorneys wanted much to do with the Davidians' lawsuit,
said Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin, who represented David Koresh
during the 1993 siege.

"It was like the tar baby," DeGuerin said.

DeGuerin and Jack Zimmerman, the Houston attorney who represented
Koresh's top lieutenant, Steve Schneider, urged Caddell to take
the case after 76 bodies were pulled from the ashes of Mount
Carmel.

"He was up and coming," DeGuerin said. "His vigor impressed me.
Suing for damages is unpopular. You can't just be looking for
money. You've got to be willing to fight and to stay with it
despite setbacks."

Caddell said his impression of what happened at Mount Carmel
hasn't changed since he watched on TV as government tanks poked
holes in Mount Carmel, supposedly to create escape routes for
Davidians, then a deadly fire broke out.

"I said to myself, 'This didn't have to happen this way,'"
Caddell said. "I've done close to 200 depositions, looked at
hundreds of thousands of pages of documents, hired a ton of
experts and spent millions of dollars in time and money. I'm
still at the same place. People died who didn't have to die, and
the government has some responsibility for that."

A prominent Houston attorney said Caddell is a natural to try the
case.

"He's not a Republican power broker you can say is trying to
embarrass the president," said the attorney, who asked not to be
named. "Had he not filed this lawsuit, he may have been in line
for some sort of political appointment. His political donations
have been generous. The point is he's independent. He took this
case because he thought the government screwed up. And, frankly,
I can't think of many other lawyers who could afford to take on
the government."

His out-of-pocket expenses in the case are now more than $1
million, Caddell said. He laughs at the notion he's kept p

[CTRL] WACO: Carlos Ghigliotty--Forward-Looking Infrared Testing

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: James Daugherty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO:  Carlos Ghigliotty--Forward-Looking Infrared Testing
Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 8:58 PM


- Original Message -
From: Pharaoh Chromium 93
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 7:00 PM
Subject: Death of IR Expert


Perhaps you could get this out.

---

Referent:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_fosters_news/2503_xnfos_waco_
exper.shtml
http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/
http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/waco.html
http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/Carlos.html


04-29-00

Memorial to a Honest Man

What follows is something I have not been able to reveal prior to
this point. As I mention at the end, I am now released from my
promise of secrecy.

Last year, the House Government Reform Committee retained an
infrared expert named Carlos Ghigliotty, of Laurel, Md. Carlos had
been working on the FLIR (Forward-Looking Infrared) for months, and
shared a lot of his results with me. I'd pass him data when he
needed it, and he knew he could count on me to keep my mouth shut.

Carlos had no politics that I ever noticed, and his interest in
Waco was objective. He had no grudge against the FBI--in fact, they
had once hired him for IR work that their lab was not up to
handling, and he used them as a reference.

Through the committee, Carlos was able to obtain a much better
quality tape than anyone else had. He discovered that when the FBI
gave out "first generation copies," it was in fact giving out
copies of a digitized "master," not of the original analog tape.
Digitization compresses the image, and loses some of its quality.
He demanded and got, through the committee, a copy of the original
tape, on Super VHS, with some other tweakings to make it the most
perfect copy possible.

Then he imported the video into his lab equipment (which I've
seen--VERY impressive). He was thorough, refusing to make a finding
until he had it pinned down from every angle. In one case, he told
me last month, he'd finally managed to link by time and location an
image of a person shouldering a weapon, shown on the regular media
videotapes made from the media locations, with a flash on the FLIR.
That, as far as I was concerned, ended the issue of whether the
flashes were gunshots. The game was simply over. Or would have
been, if he'd lived.

He found nearly 200 suspected gunshots, and had done the work
necessary to verify that many of these were genuine. Understand
that his idea of "verify" wasn't just to see the image. He wanted
to find the shooters, as well, and to plot their movement from one
flash location to another. And he wanted to correlate the FLIR
images to every possible ordinary video image, to see if he could
link up what the media filmed from the side with what the FLIR
registered from overhead.

On the side (and I have no idea why he was analyzing this) he said
it had been determined that almost the entire Waco operation, not
only 2/28 but the siege, had been improperly financed from money
that law enforcement was supposed to use only in the war on drugs.
He said there was plenty of documentation here, showing flow of
money. In the 2/28 videotape, the ATF agents are all trying on new
uniforms, new equipment--everything down to the computers in the
media area of the raid HQ were bought out of money supposed to be
used only in drug enforcement. He said that much or all of the
siege had been financed the same way. There were written standards
in the government for when the drug enforcement money could be
used, and these could be shown to have been violated in black and
white terms. A considerable amount of money had been, well,
embezzled, to support the effort.

Carlos also told me, last month, that he'd seen FLIRs from nights
before 4/19, and that it was apparent that the FLIR aircraft was
being used to monitor the Davidians' water supply. The water was
stored in those big plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and
the coolness of the water inside showed up as a darker area. It was
apparent that the water supply was shrinking, and by 4/19 was
almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew talking about it, and
noting that the level was going down. So, essentially, they knew
that thirst would force an end to the siege within a few days of
4/19. Which also meant that the FBI officials had lied to Reno when
they said the Davidians had plenty of food and water and the siege
was unlikely to end soon.

While I was in his lab, he showed me some footage where it was
clear, beyond any doubt, that a man was moving in the wreckage of
the gym. The guy gets up from behind one pile of cover and races to
another. In between, you see a very long flash that exists only for
an instant--much longer in terms of physical length than could be
attributed to a gunshot. He said that 

[CTRL] Waco: Effort To Save FLIR Info

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: Effort To Save FLIR Info
Date: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 5:02 AM


http://dallasnews.com/waco/72560_WACO02.html


Branch Davidians' lawyer asks judge
to impound work of deceased expert

Maryland police investigating case
of video analyst found dead in office

05/02/2000

By Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning News

The lead lawyer in the Branch Davidians' wrongful death
lawsuit asked a federal judge Monday to impound all
information relating to the 1993 siege of the sect's
compound from a Washington-area office where an
infrared expert was found dead last week.

Mike Caddell of Houston said he sought emergency
intervention from the court in Waco to ensure that all
significant information was preserved from the Laurel,
Md., office and home of Carlos Ghigliotti.

Police were still investigating the cause of Mr.
Ghigliotti's death Monday. An official with the Maryland
medical examiner's office in Baltimore, where an autopsy
was performed over the weekend, said the inquiry remained
pending Monday afternoon.

Police found Mr. Ghigliotti's decomposed body in his
office on Friday after being called by a building manager,
who had become concerned that the 42-year-old infrared
analyst had not been seen for several weeks.

Mr. Ghigliotti gained attention last fall after being
hired by the House Government Reform Committee to review
an FBI infrared videotape taken on the final day of the
Branch Davidian siege.

He told The Washington Post that he had determined that
repeated flashes on the video came from government gunfire
- an assessment that mirrored the analysis of two retired
Defense Department experts the sect's lawyers hired.

Government officials have said no one on their side fired
any shots on April 19, 1993, the day that a federal tear-
gas assault ended in a fire that destroyed the compound.
More than 80 sect members were killed.

British infrared experts retained by the federal court in
Waco and the office of special counsel John C. Danforth
to conduct a field test to help resolve the issue recently
told U.S. District Judge Walter Smith that they believed
none of the flashes on the video came from gunfire.

Judge Smith told both sides in the case that the British
firm, Vector Data Research, would submit its final report
on May 8 and would provide "conclusive evidence" linking
each flash to a specific cause, such as sunlight reflecting
off broken glass.

Some other experts, including those retained to help defend
the government, had previously said that the flashes on the
video were caused by falling debris, sunlight reflecting off
objects on the ground or the movement of FBI tanks that were
injecting tear gas into the compound that day.

But Mr. Caddell and other lawyers representing surviving
Branch Davidians and families of those who died have
questioned Vector's conclusions, particularly the finding
that no people were visible on the infrared video until
well after the sect's compound began burning.

Mr. Caddell and another lawyer, David T. Hardy of Tucson,
Ariz., said Mr. Ghigliotti had recently shown each of them
repeated examples of what he said were images of people
visible in the vicinity of some of the unexplained flashes
that appeared on the film in the hour before the fire.

Mr. Caddell wrote Mr. Danforth's office on April 17 and asked
investigators to interview Mr. Ghigliotti, saying that the
analyst had shown him one particularly compelling image on
the video in which the hatch of an FBI armored vehicle
"clearly opens, and it appears someone emerges from that tank."

Mr. Caddell's letter stated that image appeared as the compound
began burning and only seconds before a series of flashes
appeared near the same armored vehicle.

"I have been trying to reach him for the last few days, but
he is apparently out of town," the April 17 letter stated.
"In any event, his work is by far the most impressive I
have seen in terms of analyzing the April 19 . . .
[videotape], and I do not think you can fully appreciate
his work unless you visit his lab and spend several hours
with him reviewing key points."

Mr. Caddell also told the court last month that he planned to
hire Mr. Ghigliotti to replace his principal infrared expert,
who recently suffered a stroke.

"Mr. Ghigliotti's work product on this issue is extremely
important to plaintiffs and to the court's analysis and
conclusions," Mr. Caddell's Monday motion stated.

"Accordingly, plaintiffs seek an order from the court
preserving the completeness and integrity of that work
product. Without such an order, plaintiffs have no
assurances that third parties will not lose, damage or
destroy (innocently or intention

[CTRL] Waco: Dead Expert's Report

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: Dead Expert's Report
Date: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 4:58 AM


The following is a summary of Carols Ghigliotti's
preliminary report on the 1993 Waco FLIR. Carlos
sent this report to the Congressional Committee
on March 18. It is believed that he died sometime
between March 30 and April 19. This is probably why:

===
http://www.NewsMax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/30/160306
===

Report to Congress on Infra-red Footage at Waco

NewsMax.com

The following is a summary of conclusions reached
by Carlos Ghigliotti, an infra-red film expert.
Mr. Ghigliotti completed this report as a consultant
to the Congress. He determined federal officials had,
in fact, fired into the Koresh compound.

Summary of the most important events that occurred
on April 19, 1993

A complete analysis of the FLIR videotape (#3) taken
between 10:41:57 and 12:16:13 was made using the
equipment listed in volume 1.

An electronic grid was placed on the videotape and
divided into 4 quadrants. The top left section is
quadrant 1 or (Q1). The top right section is quadrant
2 or (Q2). The bottom left section is quadrant 3 or
(Q3) and the bottom right section is quadrant 4 or
(Q4). A videotape was recorded with this grid pattern
and provided.

At 11:16:27 the tank or CEV (combat engineering
vehicle) first appears.

At 11:18:40-Q1 the tank starts to demolish the rear
wall of the gym. This continues on until 12:09:02-Q3
when the tank leaves the rear area of the gym. There
were a total of 19 instances that the tank penetrated
the gym.

At 11:23:02-Q3 & Q4 the tank has penetrated the gym
for the 6th time.

At 11:23:23 the tank is completely inside the gym.

At 11:24:17-Q2 two unknown subjects appear from
underneath the tank.

Between 11:24:30:16-Q2 and 11:24:36-Q1 the unknown
subjects shoot into the hole made by the tank in
the gym wall.

Between 11:24:50-Q4 and 11:25:04 there is a response
in the form of gunfire from the inside of the gym
directed at the 2 unknown subjects.

At 11:26:04-Q2 the tank breaks through the front
wall of the gym.

Between 11:26:13-Q1 and 11:26:27-Q1 additional
gunfire comes out of the gym directed at the 2
unknown subjects. This gunfire has pinned down
the 2 unknown subjects on the ground.

At 11:26:26-Q1 the tank backs over the 2 unknown
subjects. The approximate height of the tank is 20
inches and 6 feet in width between the tracks.

At 11:26:39-Q4 one of the 2 unknown subjects is
clearly visible exiting out the hole in the front
wall of the gym the tank previously made. The unknown
subject turns to the right into the courtyard.

Between 11:28:04-Q1 and 11:28:14:04-Q4 there is
gunfire emitting from the position the unknown
subject was seen at 11:26:39-Q4 (the courtyard)
the direction of this gunfire is into the structure.

Between 11:28:18-Q4 and 11:28:22-Q4 there is a
response of gunfire coming out of the structure.

Between 11:30:09-Q4 and 11:30:15-Q4 there is gunfire
from the same area in the courtyard directed into
the structure.

At 11:33:51-Q4 there is gunfire between the gym
wall and the swimming pool. The direction of this
gunfire is into the structure (possibly unknown
subject #2) since the infrared signature from this
weapon is different from the rounds fired in the
courtyard.

At 11:34:32-Q4 there is one gunshot directed at the
unknown subject on 11:34:33-Q3 that is running and
hiding between the gym and the swimming pool.

Between 11:34:33-Q3 and 11:34:34-Q3 unknown subject
is being shot at.

Between 11:34:45-Q4 and 11:38:31-Q3 there is gunfire
coming out of the structure.

Between 11:38:34-Q3 and 11:38:36-Q3 an unknown subject
is seen hiding in front of the tank.

At 11:43:34-Q4 is the 3rd time the tank enters the
front middle section of the structure. This is the
side facing the cameras from the media. The tank
enters the front part of the structure on numerous
occasions and is fired upon every time it enters
the structure.

Between 11:43:36-Q4 and 11:59:03-Q3 there is gunfire
from the second floor front side directed at the tank.

At 12:03:59-Q2 unknown subject appears next to the
tank in the rear of the structure.

At 12:05:17-Q2 1st time the tank inserts the boom into
the corner of the front tower.

At 12:07:42-Q4 the fire is now visible in the infrared
spectrum coming out from the window of the second story
tower.

At 12:08:12-Q4 unknown subject comes out of the tank
and shows up at 12:08:51-Q3 shooting at the other
unknown subject that appears at 12:08:34-Q4.

Between 12:08:31-Q4 and 12:08:32-Q3 a cluster of thermal
anomalies appear at the corner of the gym.

Between 12:08:34-Q4 and 12:08:44-Q4 unknown subject
runs from the area where the thermal anomalies are.

[CTRL] Waco Update (4/23/00)

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco Update (4/23/00)
Date: Sunday, April 23, 2000 8:30 PM

  (following: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/flir01.htm)

   A Dallas Morning News report [1] gives us some numbers
   to work with from the official FLIR (forward-looking
   infrared) camera study being conducted by defense-
   contractor-owned Vector Data Research. The Morning
   News states that flashes on the test FLIR from the
   six guns tested lasted up to one fiftieth of a second
   (1/50 = .02 seconds), while reflections off debris
   lasted up to 19 times longer (.02 * 19 = .38 seconds).

   Dr. Edward Allard recorded the duration of flashes on
   the 1993 Waco FLIR to be as short as one thirtieth of
   a second (1/30 = .03 seconds). [2] Here then are the
   reported durations of flashes from these sources:

(A) TEST-GUNS   .02 sec
(B) WACO FLIR   .03 sec
(C) REFLECTIONS .38 sec

   Of the three, A and B are most similar. While the
   duration of B is only 1.5 times longer than that of
   A, the duration of C is 19 times longer than A. Logic
   therefore clearly indicates that the reported duration
   of flashes on the 1993 Waco FLIR is significantly more
   similar to the flashes on the test FLIR from test-guns
   than from reflections off debris. It should be noted
   that the Dallas Morning News report lists four of the
   six guns tested, and only two were machine guns, the
   CAR-15 assault rifle used by the FBI's hostage rescue
   team and the large M-60 machine gun. Any machine guns
   seen on the 1993 Waco FLIR could be different types,
   explaining the minor discrepancy in flash durations.

   AND THEN there's the matter of the rate at which series
   of flashes appear on the 1993 Waco FLIR. While a reflective
   surface would reflect only one beam of radiation that a
   moving camera would pass through only once, resulting in
   the occurrence of only one flash, flashes on the 1993
   Waco FLIR coming from one spot occur at a rate of 7 to
   10 times per second, exactly matching the cyclic rate of
   a machine gun. [3] No reflective surface could reasonably
   replicate such a rate of flashing. The inherent inability
   of a reflective surface to replicate the rapid flashing
   seen in the 1993 FLIR is by itself an insurmountable
   problem for the FBI's defense, and with the addition of
   the flash-duration analysis above, the evidence before
   points clearly in only one direction: machine-gun fire
   directed at Mount Carmel is seen on the 1993 Waco FLIR.

   It's reprehensible that virtually all major media are
   spreading the false claim that shooters are not visible
   on the 1993 Waco FLIR, when in fact sometimes shooters
   are visible: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/flir01.htm .
   It staggers my imagination that none of the professional
   journalists assigned to cover this case have bothered to
   study the FLIR or to even simply watch the documentary,
   Waco: A New Revelation, that put Waco back in the news,
   in which case they'd know that shooters ARE sometimes
   visible and thus that what they're writing is false.

   See the Waco FLIR yourself: http://waco-anewrevelation.com

   _
   [1] Dallas Morning News (4/23/00): "Flashes from gunfire
   on the test video were also far shorter in duration,
   lasting at most one-fiftieth of a second while those from
   debris lasted up to 19 times as long, the sources said."
   http://dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/68442_WACO23.html

   [2] Dr Edward Allard states: "We've measured the actual
   time of the individual flashes, and they occur at a
   fraction of a second, in same cases a thirtieth of a
   second. There is absolutely nothing in nature that can
   cause thermal flashes to occur in a thirtieth of a second."
   Source: Waco, A New Revelation (waco-anewrevelation.com)

   [3] Dr Edward Allard's Affidavit: "I note five flashes
   from one point, appearing and disappearing at the rate of
   7-10 per second." http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/allard.html



 If the axiom "power corrupts" is a reliable axiom,
then the Official Story must be suspect on its face.

GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story





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***
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Fernd

[CTRL] WACO: FLIR Disinfo in Media

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO: FLIR Disinfo in Media
Date: Saturday, April 22, 2000 8:34 PM


   The inclosed St Louis Post-Dispatch report, which
   has been republished across the major media, gives
   us an idea of tactical disinformation that will be
   used to cover-up the gunshots on the Waco forward
   looking infrared (FLIR) videotape. Here are two
   key disinformational tactics being deployed:

   (1): The Post-Dispatch report states that "the
   flashes on the 1993 Waco tape do not show shooters."
   That completely false claim is being widely reported.
   The fact is that shooters ARE SOMETIMES VISIBLE on the
   1993 Waco FLIR. They are visible after coming out of
   an air-conditioned tank, when their clothing was cooler
   than the sunbaked ground. However, shooters should not
   be visible when their clothing is the same temperature
   as the sunbaked ground, for FLIR only sees temperature,
   which explains why one or two shooters are not seen.

   The following images show shooters that can be seen on
   the 1993 FLIR, who just exited a tank and thus appear
   as black, or cool. Bursts of machinegun fire appear
   directly in front of them. For comparison, the third
   image shows a gunshot and shooter seen on FLIR video
   taken during the United State's ill-fated assault on
   Somalia. The means I used to grab the images (Snappy)
   makes discrete areas appear more square than they are
   and there's also a fair amount of image degradation
   (shooters are black objects in the lightened square):

SHOOTER 1 ON 1993 WACO FLIR:
http://www.erols.com/igoddard/shooter1.jpg

SHOOTER 2 ON 1993 WACO FLIR:
http://www.erols.com/igoddard/shooter2.jpg

GUNSHOT & SHOOTER DURING U.S. RAID ON SAMOLIA:
http://users.erols.com/igoddard/somalia.jpg
Muzzle-flash is white spot in darkened circle.
It looks the same as flashes on the Waco FLIR.
  (As seen on: Waco: A New Revelation [1])


   (2): The Post-Dispatch reports that the preliminary
   findings of a British firm indicate that the duration
   of flashes on the 1993 Waco FLIR is too long for the
   flashes to be gunshots, hence they are more likely
   sunlight reflections. This echoes a report by the
   defense contractor Maryland Advanced Development
   Laboratory (MADLAB). [2] Dan Gifford, a producer of
   Waco: The Rules of Engagement, [3] explained to me
   that MADLAB defined sustained bursts of flashes
   (machinegun fire) on the 1993 FLIR as a single flash,
   which they do appear to be when the video isn't slowed
   down. Therefore, by definition, the duration of a given
   flash on the 1993 FLIR is longer than the duration of a
   single gunshot; and so they concluded that the flashes
   cannot be (single) gunshots -- even though they can be
   and are single bursts composed of many rapid gunshots.

   Infrared expert Doctor Edward Allard states in his
   affidavit that when the 1993 FLIR tape is slowed down,
   what appaers as a single sustained flash at normal speed
   is seen to be composed of 7 to 10 flashes per second --
   exactly consistent with a machine gun. [4] Allard also
   notes that the duration of singular flashes on the 1993
   FLIR are as short as one thirtieth of a second! [1] We
   can know right now that a singular flash with a duration
   between 1/7th to 1/30th of a second isn't too sustained to
   be a gun-muzzle flash. The claim that such short-duration
   flashes last too long to be gunshots is absurd on its face.
   Unfortunately, thanks to the major media, the absurd will
   be the unquestioned reality for the majority of people.

   ___
   [1] Waco: A New Revelation:
   http://waco-anewrevelation.com
   [2] Article About MADLAB's (deceptive) Report:
   http://www.urf.com/madl/eo/viper/washpost.html
   [3] Waco: The Rules of Engagement: http://waco93.com
   [4] Affidavit of Doctor Edward F. Allard:
   http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/allard.html


==
THE SAINT LOUIS POST DISPATCH - April 21, 2000 8:13 p.m.
==
http://www.post-dispatch.com/postnet/stories.nsf/ByDocId/334219374E77CDC8862568C90006C221


A preliminary report indicates U.S. agents did not
fire at the Branch Davidians
BY WILLIAM H. FREIVOGEL
Of the Post-Dispatch

The British firm that performed last month's simulation of the
Waco siege has issued a preliminary report that generally supports
the government claim that agents did not fire at the Branch
Davidians in 1993, the Post-Dispatch has learned.

Vector Data Systems provided a written report to U.S. District
Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. earlier this month giving its an

[CTRL] Waco: FLIR Analyst Dead

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
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From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: FLIR Analyst Dead
Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 1:10 PM

While the police are saying they're investigating this
as a murder, it will probably be quickly ruled a suicide
or death by natural causes. The following is from the
Washington Post site, yet it's not in the print copy:


===
THE WASHINGTON POST - April 29, 2000
===

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38496-2000Apr29.html

Waco Siege Investigator Found Dead In His Home

By Cindy Loose
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, April 29, 2000; Page B03 [ NOT IN PRINT COPY ]

Carlos Ghigliotti, who had been retained by a U.S. House
committee to help investigate the 1993 siege of the Branch
Davidian compound in Waco, Tex., was found dead in Laurel
under unexplained circumstances yesterday.

"We're investigating it as a homicide," said Laurel police
spokesman Jim Collins. Ghigliotti, 42, was found about
1:30 p.m. in the 600 block of Washington Boulevard. His
body was badly decomposed, said police. There were no
signs of a break-in or a struggle at the home, where
Ghigliotti ran his business, Infrared Technologies Corp.,
police said. An expert in thermal imaging and videotape,
Ghigliotti told the House Government Reform Committee in
October that his analysis of tapes at Waco indicated that
an FBI agent fired shots at the compound on April 19, the
final day of the siege--a view disputed by the FBI.

Michael Caddell, lead lawyer in a $100 million wrongful
death lawsuit stemming from the Waco siege, said last
night that he recently had discussed the findings with
Ghigliotti and intended to retain him--not only because
his work was impressive but also because Caddell's first
expert had suffered a stoke recently. Caddell said that
two weeks ago he wrote to Waco Special Counsel John C.
Danforth, urging that he interview Ghigliotti immediately.
Caddell said he'd heard of Ghigliotti's death yesterday
from Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), chair of the committee that
retained Ghigliotti. Police called Burton, Caddell said,
because his business card was found in Ghigliotti's pocket.

A building manager, concerned that no one had seen
Ghigliotti for some weeks, contacted police, who found
the body. Michael McNulty, who made a documentary film
about Waco that was instrumental in reopening the
investigation, said he had been looking forward to
seeing Ghigliotti's conclusions. He added, "My impression
is that the work he did was significant and important."

Ghigliotti's body was transported to the chief medical
examiner's office in Baltimore for an autopsy.

Staff writer Richard Leiby contributed to this report.

===
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38496-2000Apr29.html
===


 If the axiom "power corrupts" is a reliable axiom,
then the Official Story must be suspect on its face.

GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm

Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story





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[CTRL] WACO: Dead Analyst Insights

[lloyd]

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
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From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO: Dead Analyst Insights
Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 1:58 PM


   I'd previously spoken to Dr Edward Allard, who almost
   died of a heart attack the week before the FLIR test,
   the same week that another witness for the plaintiffs
   suddenly died of a heart attack. When I called Allard
   yesterday, I was told that he can no longer talk about
   Waco. Since Allard's disabling stroke, the attorney's
   for the plaintiffs have been looking for another FLIR
   expert and were going to sign on Carlos Ghigliotti,
   but unfortunately he was just found dead yesterday.
   Looks like there getting knocked off, one by one.

   The following is a message from Attorney David Hardy,
   who knew Carlos Ghigliotti. In it he reveals not only
   critical insight into Ghigliotti's work and what he
   knew, but also new details about the gunfight around
   the back of Mount Carmel that Ghigliotti's work, with
   the best FLIR-video copy and equipment, had uncovered:


   ===
   http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/carlos.html
   ===

Attorney David T. Hardy writes:

What follows is something I have not been able to reveal prior
to this point. As I mention at the end, I am now released from
my promise of secrecy. Please forgive the length--I think you'll
find it worthwhile. This covers many months of evidence and
conversations, which I've had to keep quiet.

The House Gov't Reform Committee had retained an infrared expert
named Carlos Ghigliotti, of Laurel, Md. Carlos had been working
on the FLIR for months, and shared a lot of his results with me.
I'd pass him data when he needed it, and he knew he could count
on me to keep my mouth shut. Carlos had done a lot of IR work --
including using it to spot polluters contaminating Chesapeake
Bay, and diagnosing electronic errors (a bad connection or phase
mismatch heats up). He loved his work, and was proud of some
electronic inventions which enabled him to link together visual
and IR imaging into a single image. He got into some courtroom
work--chiefly determining if FLIR used to justify a drug search
warrant was properly used or not. He had two principles: (1) if
retained, he would tell the absolute truth as to everything and
(2) he would never accept a second retainer from a drug suspect.
No matter how egregious the misuse a second time around, he
wasn't interested in being of assistance to a man who violated
the law a second time.

He'd just had a case where an attorney tried to grill him... but
the more questions the guy asked, the deeper he got into the hole,
until the courtroom security guards were all wandering in and
sitting in the back, amusing themselves at the attorney's expense.
Carlos knew his stuff, and he laid it right on the line.

I talked with Carlos over the phone a lot, and visited him in his
lab a couple of times. I now forget the first one, but the second
visit was the day Mike McNulty previewed his latest film in DC.
Thru the committee, Carlos was able to obtain a much better quality
tape than any anyone else had. He discovered that, when FBI gave
out "first generation copies," it was in fact giving out copies
of a digitized "master," not of the original analog tape.
Digitization compresses the image, and loses some of its quality.
He demanded and got, thru the Committee, a copy of the original
tape, on Super VHS, with some other tweakings to make it the most
perfect copy possible. He said they brought out the envelope with
the original--it had about twenty chain-of-custody signatures on it.
He figured that his copy was as close to identical to the original
tape as it was possible to have--whereas the ones everyone else
has been using are a few generations down. Then he imported the
video into his lab equipment (which I've seen--VERY impressive--
four big monitors, Super VHS decks, two computers with more speed,
RAM, and hard drive than I ever thought possible.). He was thorough,
refusing to make a finding until he had it pinned down from every
angle. In one case, he told me last month, he'd finally managed
to link by time and location an image of a person shouldering a
weapon, shown on the regular media videotapes made from the media
locations, with a flash on the FLIR.

He found nearly 200 suspected gunshots, and had done the work
necessary to verify that many of these were genuine. Understand
that his idea of "verify" wasn't just to see the image. He wanted
to find the shooters, as well, and to plot their movement from
one flash location to another. And he wanted to correlate the
FLIR images to every possible ordinary video image, to see if he
could link up what the media filmed from the side with what the
FLIR regis

[CTRL] Waco Siege Investigator Found Dead In His Home

[Bill Richer]

WJPBR Email News List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Peace at any cost is a prelude to war!

Waco Siege Investigator Found Dead In His Home

  E-Mail This Article

  Printer-Friendly Version





By Cindy Loose
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, April 29, 2000; Page B03


Carlos Ghigliotti, who had been retained by a U.S. House committee to help
investigate the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Tex., was
found dead in Laurel under unexplained circumstances yesterday.

"We're investigating it as a homicide," said Laurel police spokesman Jim
Collins. Ghigliotti, 42, was found about 1:30 p.m. in the 600 block of
Washington Boulevard. His body was badly decomposed, said police. There were
no signs of a break-in or a struggle at the home, where Ghigliotti ran his
business, Infrared Technologies Corp., police said. An expert in thermal
imaging and videotape, Ghigliotti told the House Government Reform Committee
in October that his analysis of tapes at Waco indicated that an FBI agent
fired shots at the compound on April 19, the final day of the siege--a view
disputed by the FBI.

Michael Caddell, lead lawyer in a $100 million wrongful death lawsuit
stemming from the Waco siege, said last night that he recently had discussed
the findings with Ghigliotti and intended to retain him--not only because his
work was impressive but also because Caddell's first expert had suffered a
stoke recently. Caddell said that two weeks ago he wrote to Waco Special
Counsel John C. Danforth, urging that he interview Ghigliotti immediately.
Caddell said he'd heard of Ghigliotti's death yesterday from Rep. Dan Burton
(R-Ind.), chair of the committee that retained Ghigliotti. Police called
Burton, Caddell said, because his business card was found in Ghigliotti's
pocket.

A building manager, concerned that no one had seen Ghigliotti for some weeks,
contacted police, who found the body. Michael McNulty, who made a documentary
film about Waco that was instrumental in reopening the investigation, said he
had been looking forward to seeing Ghigliotti's conclusions. He added, "My
impression is that the work he did was significant and important."

Ghigliotti's body was transported to the chief medical examiner's office in
Baltimore for an autopsy.

Staff writer Richard Leiby contributed to this report.




**COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107,
any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use
without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest
in receiving the included information for nonprofit research and educational
purposes only.[Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ]

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and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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[CTRL] Waco Judge: Infrared Didn't Show Gunfire

[Bard]

NewsMax.com Was First
First Online Service to Break the Story; First at Scene!

April 24, 2000 5:23 PM EST

Waco Judge: Infrared Didn't Show Gunfire

The federal judge handling the civil law suit against the government's handling of the 
Waco raid disclosed today that independent court
experts found that infrared film did not indicate federal officials had fired ino the 
compound.

Critics and survivors of the raid had argued that the infrared film taken by a plane 
above the Koresh compound showed flashes of heat
consistent with the rapid release of gunfire.

A British defense consulting group called Vector Data Systems conducted the analysis 
of the infrared tape and compared it to a simulated
tape the experts made during a March 19 simulation at Fort Hood, Tex.

Eighty Davidians died as a result of the raid on April 19, 1993.

Critics have also pointed to the fact -- very rarely reported in the press -- that 17 
Davidians were found with gunshot wounds -- their
bodies found near the exit where the infrared showed alleged gunfire. Autopsies later 
confirmed the individuals had not died from the fire,
but from gunfire.

Judge Smith reported, however, "They (Vector) detected no muzzle blasts either from 
Davidian or Federal agents."

Vector concluded the light flashes were likely caused by either solar reflections on 
debris or by windblown debris.

http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2000/4/24/161729

--
Bard

To All Elected Officials:
  "Stop stealing my earnings that you use to give to those whom you know will vote for 
you."

There's not a dime bit of difference between a DemoRat and a RepubRat,
they're simply two wings of the same bird of prey which pecks at your
earnings while insidiously devouring your Freedom.

BUCHANAN-Reform
http://gopatgo2000.com/default.htm

Eternal Vigilance - The Price of Freedom!

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[CTRL] WACO BUTCHER SHOULD RESIGN! NOW!! NOW!!!

[Bard]

I just overheard a report on Fox News Channel that she is taking a drug that causes 
her to become 'confused'.
Didn't catch the name of the Drug.
Reported she had two 'crying jags in the presence of her staff.
--
Bard

To All Elected Officials:
  "Stop stealing my earnings that you use to give to those you know will vote for you."

There's not a dime bit of difference between a DemoRat and a RepubRat,
they're simply two wings of the same bird of prey which pecks at your
earnings to sap your strength to survive.

BUCHANAN-Reform
http://gopatgo2000.com/default.htm

Eternal Vigilance - The Price of Freedom!

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and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Waco Child Abuse Excuse Redux

[The Extremist]

When Reno uses the Child Abuse excuse destruction follows.
-

Waco Child Abuse Excuse Redux

Jack Thompson
April 18, 2000 11:20 AM

Here we go again. Monday evening the Reno Justice Department trotted out
an INS pediatric psychologist, Dr. Irwin Redlener, who maintains that he
can tell
by observing Elian from afar that the boy is being "psychologically abused" by
his Miami relatives and that the boy must be rescued from the Miami relatives
to end the abuse.

This is useful to Reno who used a later-disproven allegation of child abuse as
the basis to storm the Branch Davidian compound in Waco. Reno herself
admitted at congressional oversight hearings that she had no proof of such
abuse nor did she at the time of the incursion.

The absurdity of this ploy is that the Miami relatives have begged Reno for
months to have her team of psychologists examine the boy to determine if
anyone has abused the boy. Either the father, when we was around the boy, or,
possibly, the Miami relatives, while he has been in their care.

Reno refuses to do that, because she is afraid, clearly, of what she may find.
Yet she pioneered the technique, in the 1980s here in Miami, as reported days
ago at NewsMax.com, of using child psychologists to examine abused
children. ABC television made a movie about it called Unspeakable Acts.
Reno was the hero of the show, using the husband and wife child
psychologists, the Drs. Braga, to determine there was abuse.

This reporter has shared all this at 10:30 a.m. Tuesday with Ramon Saul
Sanchez, who plans to communicate to the media the family's urgent plea
again that the boy be examined to determine who has abused whom.

Waco revisited, right down to the child abuse allegations coming out of the
Justice Department. Bring in the fire trucks.
-end article-

*[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Patriot Resource Center: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6627/
Online Patriot Internet Radio: http://www.geocities.com/aresister_2000/
**Live Free or Die!*<><

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[CTRL] Waco Protest CS GAS

[Andrew X98]

What's Behind the Wizardry?The truth is that the Davidians who allegedly died on April 
19 in the CS attack and fire were long since dead--murdered by Special 
Operations and/or their agents.  See the Death 
Gallery 
The fire and CS attack were a cover to provide a 
(semi-) plausible explanation for the Davidian deaths.  Those Davidians who 
allegedly survived the fire did NOT of course survive the fire: They had been 
extracted before the event.  That is why we get the wacky, 
contradictory,  and discrediting stories about Davidian behavior that 
morning--stories about the menfolk abandoning the mothers and children and 
running out the back of the complex to save their own skins.  The stories 
are not true. 
The Davidians who were injured "during the 
fire" received their injuries earlier.   That is why there were 
no smoke inhalation cases (or CS inhalation cases) among the 
"survivors." 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/fire/fire.html
 
 
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 
 
That children are more sensitive than adults to respiratory conditions is 
no secret to any parent. Their smaller breathing passages are more easily 
obstructed, so that a pneumonia which leave an adult walking can kill a child. 
Further, children are prone to an ocular-cardiac reflex of unknown origin, by 
which severe eye pain can cause heart failure. It would stand to reason that 
exposure to CS poses special dangers to children, especially where the exposure 
is prolonged. As noted above, animals which can withstand a large dose of CS for 
a half hour may die when given a smaller dose for a full hour. The original 
attorney general's plan envisioned exposure of children for as much as 48 hours; 
as it turned out they were exposed for approximately six hours.
 
http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/CS.html
 
 
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 
 
 
Death certificates for Branch Davidians who died in the April 19, 1993 fire 
indicate lethal levels of cyanide in the Davidian's blood, but none in their 
digestive systems, suggesting inhalation. The CS powder used to make CS gas is 
very high in cyanide content, according to the manufacturer.
 
http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/waco/fire/cs_gas.html
 
 
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
 
41 women and children died in a small concrete room, that became their 
final tomb.The number of deaths resulting from the events at Waco is over 
fifty percent of the total American casualties in the Gulf War. But unlike the 
Gulf War, the Waco disaster resulted from people being killed by Americans, 
rather than by foreign troops. And unlike the many deaths or injuries inflicted 
on innocent children every day by abusive parents, incompetent doctors, or 
criminals, the deaths of the children at Waco would not have occurred but for 
the acts of the federal government of the United States, which most Americans 
expect to be under the control of the laws of the United States.
 
WHO is in control of our federal law government and law 
enforcement...who is watching the watchers?
 
 CS gas was banned for use 
against foreign enemies by aninternational agreement in 1969. But our government 
is free to use it on their own citizens! Usage of CS gas,iS concidered a 
"crime against humanity" and is punishable by prison and severe  
penalties! 
 
Bill Clinton is The 
Murder of The Children of Waco! 
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 
 
 
 
 
"Waco Protest 
2000"
 
 
 
Andrew X98  "The Watchman"
 
The "Cover-up Church" was founded on the Sabbath 9-18-99 by 
Agent, Clive Doyle
 
Waco Video: "X A True Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
The Children were "HACKED" to death before the fire!http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
 
David Koresh Said:  "The earthquake in Waco is not something to 
be taken lightly. It will probably be "the thing" needed to shake some 
sense into the people."

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[William Shannon]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

S...
Is it true that you were arrested NOT for being a "martyr" but for UNPAID
PARKING TICKETS?
And that your "nemesis", Clive Doyle actually BAILED YOU OUT
Jeez...With friends like this...hmmm...

Answers puhlse!
Bill.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Andrew X98]

In The 
Name of God Most Gracious,  Most Merciful
 
 
Waco Protest ALERT!
 
Since the release of the new Waco 
video "X : A True Revelation"  I have received a flood of mail 
requesting further information on the current government control of Mt.Carmel 
here in Waco. Also there has been a flood of attempts at the suppression of this 
truth .
 
I have been trying to post the 
review, written by Carol Valentine on a web site with my ISP. I just got off the 
phone with a man who identified himself as Danny, from Stone Media that 
threatened me that they can shut me down for any reason they chose. 

 
Are they making a political 
statement? 
 
Hopefully the president at Stone 
media is being forced into this situation. I have talked with him and he has 
understanding of the reality that I am delivering a political message of great 
intensity. He understood completely that there would by nature be an opposing 
group, however he may have not realized how much pressure they are willing to 
apply to me and those around me. 
 
The freedom of speech was not won 
by speech nor will it, in the end, be defended by speech. 
 
They may, as they have said, shut me down anytime 
they want to. This is the power that the government wants over us to. This is 
also the power that the government HAS over some ISPs.  Clearly if you 
control the bridge you effectively control anyone that wishes to use that bridge 
,regardless of what side they are on!
 
Ed McGoory wrote this concerning 
earlier attempts to shut me down  Hopefully he is still standing 
strong.
 
-Original Message-
To: Ed M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Friday, 
March 24, 2000 9:32 PMSubject: RE: Stonemedia policies
 
 
>..Allow me to explain myself . We had received several complaints 
about>Andrews E-mails being received as unsolicited e-mail. Sending 
unsolicited>e-mail is a violation of our terms of service agreement that 
we have with>all of our customers. The only intent we had in temporarily 
suspending his>account (Which was dial up as well as e-mail) was to get 
in touch with him.>I spoke with him about the issue and at that time 
decided that what he was>doing was in fact not a violation of our 
agreement. I asked to be added to>his list not to censor or moderate the 
content of his messages but to be>aware so I could better answer the 
e-mails and complaints when they arrive.>I understand this could be a 
controversial issue and this will make it>easier for us to head off any 
complaints as they arrive . We are in no way>trying to determine and or 
regulate what Andrew is sending or infringe on>his right to free speech, 
only to ensure that We as a internet service>provider are protected. We 
reviewed the situation and determined Andrew is>not violating the terms 
of service in any way and full access has been>restored to his account. 
Please feel free to post this response to any of>the newsgroups you feel 
fit and e-mail me if you have any further questions.>>>Ed 
McGory>Vice President>StoneMedia Communications>Temple, 
Texas 76502>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Ed:  
Thanks for your nice note!I expected your investigation would find 
Andrew innocent and I am happy hisservice has been restored.  I will 
certainly post your response to therelevant Usenet 
groups.

Re: [CTRL] "Waco Protest 2000"

[uaicvtmb]

OK FINE, SO ARE YOU "SELF APPOINTED OR WHAT?" How many times 
in one night
do you have to post the SAME THING. Will You Give it A REST 
ALREADY! THANKS "MR. X"
The other people are beginning to treat this as SPAM. And I 
will Just DELEAT IT. Thanks. ~

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Andrew X98 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 8:46 
  PM
  Subject: [CTRL] "Waco Protest 2000"
  
  In The Name 
  of God Most Gracious, Most Merciful
   
   
  Dear Brothers and 
  Sisters,
   
  I am Andrew, "The 
  Watchman" appointed by the survivors of the April 19,1993 Waco 
  Holocaust.
   
  On September 18, 1999 
  Clive  Doyle laid the foundation to the new church. This was a Sabbath. 
  Since that day I have been warning the people of this nation about the 
  Biblical implications of that crime against the Laws of God and the memory of 
  the Martyrs. To get this job done I have been forced into this world of 
  computers. I am very new at this method of communication and as a result I 
  have made many mistakes in protocol. Only time and experience will correct 
  this.
   
  I have sought out forums, 
  E-Mail Lists and individuals that I thought would be interested and capable of 
  understanding my message of great concern. I have studied each group and  
  considered your level of thought processing in selecting you. I understood 
  from the beginning that I would make mistakes. To overcome these problems I 
  depended on your Christian concern and, in the absence of that, your humanity 
  toward a petitioner.
   
  My premises is that you 
  are  people that care about the murder of these men, woman and 
  children.  I believe that there are many people in this country that want 
  to see Bill Clinton and the others responsible for this mass murder brought to 
  Justice. If you or your group fit this description then you already know that 
  their religious beliefs were central in the commission of this crime. But what 
  were their beliefs that they were willing to died for? Very few people know. 
  Yet many have opinions about what they believed, they have passed judgment 
  based solely on the words of the Murderers themselves. I have studied these 
  people and their beliefs since the Feb.28, 1993. For the last three years I 
  have lived here in Waco Texas among the survivors. I have learned a great 
  deal, which I am willing to share with you, if that's what you 
  want.
   
  Recently in my efforts to sound this 
  alarm I have posted information about the:
   
  "Waco Protest 2000" 
   
  This Protest is to be held at the gates 
  of M.Carmel Center on April 19, 2000. I have also offered you a video at the 
  cost of shipping and handling which has been reviewed by Carol Valentine. The 
  review and comments can be viewed at:
   
   alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater  under the title of 
  "New Waco Video! Clive Doyle's Boyz Exposed!" 
   
  This video shows that the people in 
  charge of Mt.Carmel are agents for  the Bill Clinton Murderers of the 
  Children of Waco. I will continue to post Updates on this "Waco Protest" and 
  information related to the teachings  of David Koresh, so that those who 
  wish an understanding might consider the nature of what it was that these 
  people gave their lives for. If you or your group wish to not receive this 
  information simply ask me or have the own of your list to ask me not to post 
  .
   
  I have received many responses 
  concerning "Waco Protest 2000". So intense has this response been that I have 
  taken a day to consider the overall attitude being expressed and the confusion 
  of what my intent is. I hope that this letter helps to bring things into a 
  clearer view. What I see is that people want to argue their religious belief 
  systems. This I am not interested in. It is a waste of everyone's time and is 
  at best useless to the subject at hand; that being the arrest and trial of 
  Bill Clinton for the Murder of the Children of Waco.
   
  It is hard for any of us not to have a 
  knee jerk reaction to the Name Koresh because we have all been victimize by 
  the ZOG Media mind control machine.
  We have been conditioned against this 
  Name by the satanic forces of the world because Koresh is the Name of God and 
  the surname of all of his children. Isa. 45:4. 
  
  Isa.45[1] Thus satin the LORD to his anointed, to Syrups, 
  whose right hand I have holder, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose 
  the loins of kings, to open before him the two leafed gates; and the gates 
  shall not be shut;[2] I will go before the, and make the crooked 
  places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder 
  the bars of iron:[3] And I will give the the treasures of darkness, 
  and hidden riches of secret places, that thou gayest know that I, the LORD, 
  which call the by t

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Andrew X98]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/cover/c_page02.html




-Original Message-
From: Ynr Chyldz Wyld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!


>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>From: "ThePiedPiper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Did not see a link to what the church was before
>> that coward and child molester Koresh came on the
>> scene.
>
>DO you have some PROOF that Koresh ever molested anyone?
>
>Funny, before the Feds got involved, the state of Texas
>investigated charges of molestation and sexual abuse
>against Koresh, and ruled them unfounded
>
>
>June
>
>http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
matters
>and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Om

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

[CTRL] "Waco Protest 2000"

[Andrew X98]

In The Name of 
God Most Gracious, Most Merciful
 
 
Dear Brothers and 
Sisters,
 
I am Andrew, "The 
Watchman" appointed by the survivors of the April 19,1993 Waco 
Holocaust.
 
On September 18, 1999 
Clive  Doyle laid the foundation to the new church. This was a Sabbath. 
Since that day I have been warning the people of this nation about the Biblical 
implications of that crime against the Laws of God and the memory of the 
Martyrs. To get this job done I have been forced into this world of computers. I 
am very new at this method of communication and as a result I have made many 
mistakes in protocol. Only time and experience will correct this.
 
I have sought out forums, 
E-Mail Lists and individuals that I thought would be interested and capable of 
understanding my message of great concern. I have studied each group and  
considered your level of thought processing in selecting you. I understood from 
the beginning that I would make mistakes. To overcome these problems I depended 
on your Christian concern and, in the absence of that, your humanity toward a 
petitioner.
 
My premises is that you 
are  people that care about the murder of these men, woman and 
children.  I believe that there are many people in this country that want 
to see Bill Clinton and the others responsible for this mass murder brought to 
Justice. If you or your group fit this description then you already know that 
their religious beliefs were central in the commission of this crime. But what 
were their beliefs that they were willing to died for? Very few people know. Yet 
many have opinions about what they believed, they have passed judgment based 
solely on the words of the Murderers themselves. I have studied these people and 
their beliefs since the Feb.28, 1993. For the last three years I have lived here 
in Waco Texas among the survivors. I have learned a great deal, which I am 
willing to share with you, if that's what you want.
 
Recently in my efforts to sound this alarm 
I have posted information about the:
 
"Waco Protest 2000" 

 
This Protest is to be held at the gates of 
M.Carmel Center on April 19, 2000. I have also offered you a video at the cost 
of shipping and handling which has been reviewed by Carol Valentine. The review 
and comments can be viewed at:
 
 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater  under the title of 
"New Waco Video! Clive Doyle's Boyz Exposed!" 
 
This video shows that the people in charge 
of Mt.Carmel are agents for  the Bill Clinton Murderers of the Children of 
Waco. I will continue to post Updates on this "Waco Protest" and 
information related to the teachings  of David Koresh, so that those who 
wish an understanding might consider the nature of what it was that these people 
gave their lives for. If you or your group wish to not receive this information 
simply ask me or have the own of your list to ask me not to post .
 
I have received many responses concerning 
"Waco Protest 2000". So intense has this response been that I have 
taken a day to consider the overall attitude being expressed and the confusion 
of what my intent is. I hope that this letter helps to bring things into a 
clearer view. What I see is that people want to argue their religious belief 
systems. This I am not interested in. It is a waste of everyone's time and is at 
best useless to the subject at hand; that being the arrest and trial of Bill 
Clinton for the Murder of the Children of Waco.
 
It is hard for any of us not to have a 
knee jerk reaction to the Name Koresh because we have all been victimize by the 
ZOG Media mind control machine.
We have been conditioned against this Name 
by the satanic forces of the world because Koresh is the Name of God and the 
surname of all of his children. Isa. 45:4. 

Isa.45[1] Thus satin the LORD to his anointed, to Syrups, whose 
right hand I have holder, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the 
loins of kings, to open before him the two leafed gates; and the gates shall not 
be shut;[2] I will go before the, and make the crooked places 
straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars 
of iron:[3] And I will give the the treasures of darkness, and hidden 
riches of secret places, that thou gayest know that I, the LORD, which call the 
by thy name, am the God of Israel.[4] For Jacob my servant's sake, 
and Israel mine elect, I have even called the by thy name: I have 
surnamed the, though thou hats not known me.[5] I am 
the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded the, 
though thou hats not known me:[6] That they may know from the rising 
of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and 
there is none else.[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make 
peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.[8] Drop down, 
ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth 
open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousnes

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

<>

Can you prove this? The Texas Child Protective Services could not.



__
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
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and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

From: "ThePiedPiper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Did not see a link to what the church was before
> that coward and child molester Koresh came on the
> scene.

DO you have some PROOF that Koresh ever molested anyone?

Funny, before the Feds got involved, the state of Texas
investigated charges of molestation and sexual abuse
against Koresh, and ruled them unfounded


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Andrew X98]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Do you call $10.98 gold digging.? Get a grip on some common sense. I was
offering this for free a d then I saw that people were just ordering to
exhaust me. This Video is history being made. What's wrong with you that you
can only speak foolishness. Why not try speaking to the important points
that this post raises?


Andrew X98  "The Watchman"

The "Cover-up Church" was founded on the Sabbath 9-18-99 by Agent, Clive
Doyle

Waco Video: "X A True Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Children were "HACKED" to death before the fire!
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html

David Koresh Said:  "The earthquake in Waco is not something to be taken
lightly. It will probably be "the thing" needed to shake some sense into the
people."

-Original Message-
From: ThePiedPiper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!


>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>Either take off the ad for the video and leave that
>for those that want to go to the web site or
>I will start asking who else wants you
>kicked off!
>No matter how they died - to put this on a money
>footing by not giving out the history of that
>church, long before Koresh - belittles what
>happened.
>So, are you just some common gold digger?
>ThePiedPiper 26March2000
>
>Andrew X98 wrote:
>>
>> -Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
>>  -Cui Bono?-
>>
>> So you have reviled your self as not only stupid but a fool to boot. You
>> have no idea of what you are talking about. Why not stand for truth and
call
>> for the arrest of the Bill Clinton murderers  of the Children of Waco?
>>
>>   Waco Protest 2000!
>> Andrew X98  "The Watchman"
>>
>> The "Cover-up Church" was founded on the Sabbath 9-18-99 by Agent, Clive
>> Doyle
>>
>> Waco Video: "X A True Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> The Children were "HACKED" to death before the fire!
>> http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
>>
>> David Koresh Said:  "The earthquake in Waco is not something to be taken
>> lightly. It will probably be "the thing" needed to shake some sense into
the
>> people."
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: ThePiedPiper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 5:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!
>>
>> >-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
>> > -Cui Bono?-
>> >
>> >Did not see a link to what the church was before
>> >that coward and child molester Koresh came on the
>> >scene.  So, now they are trying to use him as a
>> >martyr and that he started the church
>> >are they so willing to give up their history
>> >for money?
>> >Or
>> >Is it that (many) of the original Branch Dividians
>> >got fed up with him and left?
>> >
>> >http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>> >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>> >==
>> >CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
>> propagandic
>> >screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
>> matters
>> >and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
>> outright
>> >frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor
effects
>> >spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
>> >gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
>> readers;
>> >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>> >nazi's need not apply.
>> >
>> >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>> >
>> >Archives Available at:
>> >http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>> >
>> >http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>> >
>> >To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>> >SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> >To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>> >SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> >Om
>>
>> http://www

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[ThePiedPiper]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Either take off the ad for the video and leave that
for those that want to go to the web site or
I will start asking who else wants you
kicked off!
No matter how they died - to put this on a money
footing by not giving out the history of that
church, long before Koresh - belittles what
happened.
So, are you just some common gold digger?
ThePiedPiper 26March2000

Andrew X98 wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
>  -Cui Bono?-
>
> So you have reviled your self as not only stupid but a fool to boot. You
> have no idea of what you are talking about. Why not stand for truth and call
> for the arrest of the Bill Clinton murderers  of the Children of Waco?
>
>   Waco Protest 2000!
> Andrew X98  "The Watchman"
>
> The "Cover-up Church" was founded on the Sabbath 9-18-99 by Agent, Clive
> Doyle
>
> Waco Video: "X A True Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The Children were "HACKED" to death before the fire!
> http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
>
> David Koresh Said:  "The earthquake in Waco is not something to be taken
> lightly. It will probably be "the thing" needed to shake some sense into the
> people."
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: ThePiedPiper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!
>
> >-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> > -Cui Bono?-
> >
> >Did not see a link to what the church was before
> >that coward and child molester Koresh came on the
> >scene.  So, now they are trying to use him as a
> >martyr and that he started the church
> >are they so willing to give up their history
> >for money?
> >Or
> >Is it that (many) of the original Branch Dividians
> >got fed up with him and left?
> >
> >http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
> >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> >==
> >CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
> propagandic
> >screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
> matters
> >and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
> outright
> >frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
> >spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> >gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
> readers;
> >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
> >nazi's need not apply.
> >
> >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> >
> >Archives Available at:
> >http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
> >
> >http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> >
> >To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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> >
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> >SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Om
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
> Archives Available at:
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
> http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> 
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>
> Om

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & 

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Andrew X98]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

So you have reviled your self as not only stupid but a fool to boot. You
have no idea of what you are talking about. Why not stand for truth and call
for the arrest of the Bill Clinton murderers  of the Children of Waco?


  Waco Protest 2000!
Andrew X98  "The Watchman"

The "Cover-up Church" was founded on the Sabbath 9-18-99 by Agent, Clive
Doyle

Waco Video: "X A True Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Children were "HACKED" to death before the fire!
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html

David Koresh Said:  "The earthquake in Waco is not something to be taken
lightly. It will probably be "the thing" needed to shake some sense into the
people."


-Original Message-
From: ThePiedPiper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!


>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>Did not see a link to what the church was before
>that coward and child molester Koresh came on the
>scene.  So, now they are trying to use him as a
>martyr and that he started the church
>are they so willing to give up their history
>for money?
>Or
>Is it that (many) of the original Branch Dividians
>got fed up with him and left?
>
>http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
matters
>and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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>
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>SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Om

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[ThePiedPiper]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Did not see a link to what the church was before
that coward and child molester Koresh came on the
scene.  So, now they are trying to use him as a
martyr and that he started the church
are they so willing to give up their history
for money?
Or
Is it that (many) of the original Branch Dividians
got fed up with him and left?

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

[CTRL] Waco Protest ALERT!

[Andrew X98]

In the Name of God Most 
Gracious, Most Terrifying
 
 
Waco Protest 
ALERT!
 
Yesterday was Saturday Sabbath. Sabbath meeting was held at 
the gates of Mt.Carmel the Subject was Psalms 18. In reference to the letter 
sent out of Mt.Carmel on April 10, 1993. This is a letter to God's friends from 
Yaweh Koresh.
The letter is a token of  "Great Concern". It 
warns of an earthquake here in Waco and the Judgment of God. http://home.maine.rr.com/waco/letter410.gif
 
"I will surely show you the meaning of 
Psalms 18, unless you open your eyes and not your mouth. Fear Me and "The 
Hour of My Judgment," for it has come."
 
During the Sabbath meeting it was witnessed that 
"Scott",  the watchman appointed by Fake Davidian Clive 
Doyle,  was "WORKING"! He was watering plants around the 
"church". Now if you don't believe in the word of God or if, like the 
Murderers, you don't give a damn about the beliefs of the Martyrs, then this is 
no big deal to you. But to those that honor the Laws of God and the Martyrs who 
stand in the "Unseen Reality" , continually crying out with a loud 
voice:
 
"How long O'  lord, holy and true, dost 
thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the 
earth?". 
 
It means everything!
 
Today is Sunday, the Sabbath for 90% of the 
Christians in this world, and yet they are working today at the site where the 
"King of the North" has placed 
"The Abomination That Maketh 
Desolate".
 
As we judge this issue so to will we be 
judged.
 
This "church" is the work of The Bill 
Clinton Murderers of the Children of Waco. Look at it ! in the front widow there 
are three upside down crosses! (Anti-Christ in his fullness). In the New Waco 
Video: "X  A True Revelation" you are shown clearly the character 
of the ones in charge of building it.
 
Consider this:  When people unknowing walk 
through the front doors of this Abomination on April 19, 2000 they will cross a 
threshold that was paid for by Diana Spitz and William 
McGivers. And what is the Spirit of this generous 
couple?
 
 
Here is their web site: http://www.everett.net/users/rorrim/koresh.htm 

 
 
In the past few months these people have 
befriended me seeking counsel on some of their personal problems and their lack 
of knowledge concerning the teachings of David Koresh. I have spent many hours 
trying to explain the teachings and offering my counsel. Then the video was 
released: Consider a few of their many posts to me.
 

 
-Original Message-From: William & 
Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Monday, 
January 17, 2000 9:06 AMSubject: join your list>>>this things say i need membership 
before i join>i enetered my name and apssword but it no takes 
it>can you plase do it for me join me up?
 

 

-Original Message-From: 
William & Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: ali 
andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Thursday, January 20, 2000 10:02 AMSubject: RE: About 
myself
ok 
andrew you say the church started on the sabbath in the in afternoon or 
evevning of that day the 18 th saturday
was this after 6 pm you saw work done i think you said it 
was.i am praying about this to god as i think you are 
too.

 

-Original Message-From: 
William & Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: ali 
andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Wednesday, January 26, 2000 11:19 AMSubject: RE: 
Clive
you know what diana said to me... i am a walking talking 
bible..
how can that be i only been at reading the bible it a 
year
she refered to as like david koresh. well if she says so 
she would know
so what do you want to know from 
us
 
 

 
-Original Message-From: 
William & Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: ali 
andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Friday, January 28, 2000 11:52 AMSubject: RE: Persia = 
IRAN
so 
your saying persia where king cyrus is the koresh. so how is it yet to happen in 
the latter day that this happens
when it took place in 2nd chron o ezra thas has happened 
allready so your saying it happens twice.. is that it
i need to study this some more about what you 
say...
 

 

 
-Original Message-From: 
William & Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: ali 
andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Monday, March 13, 2000 10:06 AMSubject: RE: Waco Protest 
Today!
what 
do you think of one  who is half male and half female    
(alpha/omega)
alpha 
omega means god the father/alpha god the son/omega and the final judge of all 
things/one
 

 
-Original 
Message-From: William & Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: ali 
andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Thursday, March 16, 2000 3:42 PMSubject: RE: Waco protest Update 
3-12-00
andrew 
my friend    if i had a million dollars i would GIVE IT THis 
church you call a abonination 
because this church is MY CHURCH now butt 
out
 
 
Then the Video was released:
 

 
-Original Message-From: William & 
Diana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>D

[CTRL] Waco Protest Update 3-19-00

[Andrew X98]

 
In The 
Name of God Most Knowing Most Truthful
 
 
 
Waco Protest Update: March 19, 2000
Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseumor 
http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum 
Mt. Carmel Doe 32Autopsy photograph of the alleged remains of John-Mark 
Stanley McBean
 
 
After being threaten at gun point by two 
supporters of Clive Doyle on 3-12-00, and the subsequent refusal of the McLennan 
County Sheriffs department to take a report on the incident, I decided to not 
protest at the scene of the Waco Holocaust. I have been working this week to 
bring this issue to the public and the superiors of officer Bud Koen. Let it be 
known to all that care about this public crime against me that I was able to 
record the incident to the Waco police: Report # 00-15973 taken by Officer Betty 
Marcum. Hopefully, by this information being made public I will be safe this 
weekend.
 
Why should I risk my life, which is clearly in 
danger? The answer is simple; I am the watchman for the martyrs of the Waco 
Holocaust. It is my job to sound the alarm if there is a problem in "New 
Jerusalem" were 82 human beings were Murdered by Bill Clinton. And what is 
the alarm? 
 
The new church was 
founded on the Sabbath 9-18-99 by "Clive Doyle."
 
Now if you are not a 
believer in the laws of God this means nothing to you, but if you care about the 
ones that gave their lives for those laws then you understand that this is an 
Abomination That will Make all those that enter it Desolate. If you care about 
these people then stand with me in opposition to this "Government 
Church".
 
I just released a video this week showing Clive 
Doyle and  Alex Jones with his so called "Patriots" for who they 
are, i.e. Bill Clinton Stooges. A Full review of this video by Carol Valentine, 
a long time champion of the Martyrs, is available by writing me.
We must stand against this slanderous corruption 
of truth which sreeks to cast the honor of the Masrtyrs to the 
ground..
 
Since 3-12-00 the few students that are here in 
Waco have been threatened by Clive Doyle and his goons with being thrown off the 
property if they are seen with me again. One of these students was even 
threatened with being turned into the immigration authorities!
 
We know from the video that Clive Doyle has 
already proven himself to be a "Snitch" for the police. In the video 
we see him in action. There is no reason to doubt that he will do it again. 
While his actions are wretched in their nature they are helping the students to 
see this agent for what he really is.
 
 
Sabbath Meeting will be held this 
Saturday March 26, 2000 at the gate of Mt.Carmel.
 
The "Waco Protest" will 
be held this Sunday March 27, 2000 at the gate of Mt.Carmel.
 
Come and pray for the martyrs of 
God on the Sabbath and Protest their continued oppression at the hands of the 
Bill Clinton Murderers of The Chiuldren of Waco. 
 
 
 


Waco Survivor Story(s) --True or False?The September 
9, 1999 edition of Salon magazine carried a story written by  Branch 
Davidian David Thibodeau, whom (we are told) survived the April 19, 1993 inferno 
at the Mt. Carmel Center in Waco.  Among other things, David T. discusses 
that fateful day. 
Can we rely on David Thibodeau's account of the events of April 19, 
1993?  Please read the following and come to your own conclusions. 
I see two major problems with Mr. Thibodeau's account(s): (a) important 
elements in his accounts keep changing, and (b) none of the accounts are 
credible. 
Some history:  By the summer of 1995, the news of how the mothers an 
children died in the Mt.  Carmel center had made the rounds in the Waco 
protest movement: The moms and kids had hidden from the CS in an old concrete 
records storage room that was being used as a pantry in 1993.  Instead of 
protecting the moms and kids, the concrete room became their tomb. 
The story worried me from the beginning.  Mothers are practical 
people.  When the air is poisoned, the practical solution is to get 
away from it.  But the concrete room was a catch basin for poisoned 
air.  It was windowless.  It had a doorway, but no door.  
Poisoned air entering the room from the doorway would have nowhere to 
escape.  Why would the moms take their babies to a catch basin to 
escape the CS? 
I wanted to know more.  So in July, 1995 I interviewed David Thibodeau 
on the telephone. 
I asked David T. whether he had seen the mothers and children on April 
19.  First he said no.  Then I asked who told the mothers and children 
to go to the concrete room.  He said he did not know.  However, he 
confirmed that the mothers had gas masks and the children had no gas masks, so 
to protect the children, the mothers had buckets of water and cloths and with 
them; the mothers dunked the cloths into the buckets of water and covered the 
children's faces with wet cloths. 
But how could David Thibodeau know what was happening in the concrete room if 
he had not seen the mother

[CTRL] Waco Suits for Waco Suckers

[Andrew X98]

Title: Waco Suits for Waco Suckers




If you do NOT want to receive 
"Waco Protest" Updates and information concerning the current 
Government Control of Mt.Carmel simply ask and I will remove you from my list. 
If your group is not interested have your own contact me. Those that do not have 
an ear to hear wont hear anyway. 
 
Andrew X98
 






Waco Suits for Waco Suckers
or

They Couldn't Even Get the Names Right!
by Carol A. Valentine

Judge Charlie McCarthy presiding ...


Hey, Wow!  They're finally doing something about Waco! That video showed 
how the government shot the Davidians as they were trying to escape the fire, 
and tough Davidian lawyers are suing the government because of what they did! 
The judge is the same judge who was real mean to the Davidians back in 1994 
and sent them to prison for 40 years, but don't worry, he is nice now--he had a 
change of heart!  Now he's going after the government, not the Davidians! 
The FBI has admitted it lied about stuff.  Janet Reno and Louis Freeh 
are real ANGRY!  There are Congressional investigations, too, complete with 
turf battles! 
The nation is coming together!  Folks are feeling sorry about what 
happened, and are helping the Davidians rebuild their church!  They've even 
had a ground breaking ceremony, with the American flag fluttering in the breeze! 
It was very nice! 
Truth!  Justice!  The American Way!  Yes, indeed, it's all 
just around the corner!   
*   *   *
Do you believe all this?  THEN YOU ARE A SUCKER. 
The lawsuits and attendant media hoopla are part of a tawdry, choreographed 
vaudeville show designed to cover up the Waco Holocaust yet again.  The bad 
actors include Kirk Lyons, Ramsey Clark, Gordon Novel, Brigadier General Benton 
Partin, Michael Caddell, Michael McNulty, and Judge Walter Smith. 
Before we get into details, allow us to pose a question. Imagine you are a 
surviving Branch Davidian or a family member of one of those killed.  
Suppose you had voluminous, incontestable, publicly available evidence that 
members of your family and your friends were murdered with malice aforethought 
and their bodies desecrated in an attempt to cover up the crime. 
Would you file a lawsuit claiming that your women folk and children (a) died 
by accident, (b) committed suicide, (c) were murdered by other Davidians? 
Would you claim your dead friends and relatives set Mt. Carmel on fire? 
Would you ask that Americans who had no part in the planning or performance 
of the murders pay millions of dollars to you while the murderers went free? 
Would you take part in the falsification of history and consider your loved 
ones were in any way avenged? 
Now you understand the Davidian civil suits.  They re-assert the 
government's most pernicious black propaganda against Davidians living and dead, 
make exotic claims against the US that are completely unsupported or supported 
by weak and contested evidence, and ignore the most powerful and convincing 
evidence against the US. 


Table of Contents1.  Judge Charlie 
McCarthy Presiding ... 2.  The Importance 
of Truth in Justice 
3.  Kirk Lyons 
    3a.  Startle 
Summers ... No Body to Speak Of ...     3b.  
It IS 
Aisha Summers.  (Please Don't Read the Autopsy Report.) 
    3c.  Forget 
Lyons' "Death Squad." Aisha Suicided 
    3e.  Davidians 
Started the Fire 
4.  Ramsey Clark 
    4a.  Ramsey Clark 
Has Been Misunderstood     4b.  Gordon Novel and the 
Body-Obliterating Bomb     4c.  The Fireball and the 
Hole     4d.  General Partin 
Goes Down in Flames     4e.  Mrs. O'Leary's 
Cow Started the Fire     4f.  Would You Trust a Spook to 
Investigate Waco?     4g.  Koresh Assassination: 
Too Bad Ramsey Missed It     4h.  Do the Beasts of 
the Field Have Names? 
5.  Judge Walter 
Smith, Perjury Facilitator     5a.  None Dare Call it 
Collusion 
6.  Michael Caddell 
and "The Network"     6a.  The Ex-Mrs. Clive Doyle 
& the Doyle Grandchildren (?)     6b.  
The Ghostly 
Horde and the FLIR Tape     6c.  Where 
Are FLIR Images of Fleeing Davidians?     
6d.  No Bodies in 
Back of Mt. Carmel Center     6e.  McNulty and Friends 
    6f.  Davidians Murdered 
Each Other     6g.  Another Vanishing Body 
    6h.  Koresh Molested 
Children     6i.  The Incompetents 
vs. The Weirdos     6j.  Blame it on 
Davidian Religion     6k.  What's in a Name? 
    6l.  Janet Reno Is 
a Nice Person, Really!     6m.  Davidians Started the 
Fire     6n.  Rules of 
Engagement vs. Rule of Law 
7.  Consent 
Engineers and the "Final Solution" for Waco 

[CTRL] Waco Test Shows "OBVIOUS GUNFIRE"

[lloyd]

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 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
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From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco Test Shows "OBVIOUS GUNFIRE"
Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:09 PM


FBI critics claim that FLIR video taken over Waco reveals
automatic gunfire into the community on the last day. The
FBI counters with the claim that the flashes are not gun
shots and that FLIR can't even detect gunfire. However,
an inside source informs Matt Drudge that during FLIR
tests conducted in Waco today: "The hot flashes were
completely recreated using a sniper on the ground."


Excerpted quotation of Drudge Report:

=
X DRUDGE REPORT X SUN MARCH 19 2000 20:48:09 ET X

SOURCES: WACO RE-ENACTMENT SHOWS 'OBVIOUS GUNFIRE';
FLASHES CAPTURED ON TAPE

**Exclusive**

Rapid-fire bursts of light appearing on aerial infrared
surveillance footage made by the FBI during the 1993 showdown
at Waco were spectacularly recreated on Sunday, according to
investigators, rapid-fire bursts recreated by flashes from gunfire!

"The hot flashes were completely recreated using a sniper on
the ground," revealed a congressional source, one of 35 people
to witness the court-ordered re-enactment of the final hours
of the Branch Davidian showdown.

A second source also present at the tightly-controlled test
conducted at Fort Hood said the FBI, which claimed the '93
flashes were simply reflections of sunlight off debris and
water, has been dealt a setback on Sunday.

=
SEE FULL DRUDGE REPORT: http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm
=


WACO PROTEST: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/waco-1.htm


   "There are times when you cannot keep your job and
  put alternative explanations for data on the table."
   Former FBI Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst




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==
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[CTRL] Waco: Evidence Tampered

[lloyd]

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 -Cui Bono?-

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From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: Evidence Tampered
Date: Thursday, March 16, 2000 11:19 AM

Branch Davidians: Evidence Tampered

By Michelle Mittelstadt
Associated Press Writer
Wednesday, March 15, 2000; 6:07 p.m. EST

WASHINGTON -- Contending that the government has
withheld, destroyed or tampered with important
evidence related to the federal siege of a Waco, Texas,
compound in 1993, lawyers for Branch Davidians who
have filed a wrongful-death lawsuit are asking a federal
judge for help.

In a 31-page motion being filed in federal court in
Waco, the Davidians' lead counsel asked U.S. District
Judge Walter Smith to schedule a hearing to review the
complaint or to sanction the government.

"A disturbing pattern has emerged," the motion by
Davidian lawyer Michael Caddell said. "Much of the
key evidence relating to the events of April 19, 1993,
has been 'lost,' altered or tampered with."

U.S. Attorney Michael Bradford of Beaumont, whose
office has coordinated the massive document production
demanded by the court, didn't immediately return a
telephone call seeking comment, nor did a Justice
Department spokesman.

In his motion, Caddell complained of "suspicious gaps"
in evidence and said the government had failed to meet
the judge's September 1999 order to produce original
audio and video tapes, photographic negatives and other
evidence.

Among the originals reported lost by the government,
Caddell said, were negatives for an 11:24 a.m. photo
the FBI has brandished as proof that no gunshots were
fired by federal agents into the Branch Davidian retreat.

The plaintiffs, whose case goes to trial in mid-May,
contend that aerial infrared surveillance footage shot by
the FBI offers definitive proof that government agents
fired their weapons as the Davidians' building burned.

The government, for seven years, has staunchly denied
that its agents fired any shots that day or that it
bears any responsibility for the fire that raced through
the compound several hours into an FBI tear-gassing
operation designed to flush the Davidians out.

Davidian leader David Koresh and some 80 followers
died, some from the fire, others from gunshot wounds.
The government contends they perished by their own hand.

The plaintiffs, who have deposed dozens of on-scene
FBI personnel, contend an FBI photographer's testimony
offers proof that several rolls of film shot in the
crucial hour before the compound burned are missing
from the evidence turned over by the government.

"The pattern of the photographs produced by the FBI
suggests only one thing: the FBI has turned over only
those photographs to the court (and the press) that the
FBI wants the court and the public to see," Caddell
charged.

The plaintiffs accuse the government of other
wrongdoing, including:

* Never returning a roll of film confiscated from the
Texas Rangers showing bodies and weaponry found
inside the decimated concrete bunker. "The absence of
these photographs makes it very difficult, if not
impossible, to determine if any of these persons were
shot outside of that room and moved into it prior to or
after the fire," the motion said.

* Representing as originals audio recordings made from
listening devices planted inside the compound during
the 51-day siege. An analysis commissioned by the
plaintiffs suggests the tapes are copies. The tapes --
which the government has relied on for proof that the
Davidians spread fuel and started the fire -- also bear
signs of being recorded with multiple recorders, the
plaintiffs' tape expert concluded.

"There existed a number of suspicious record events
(i.e. anomalies) which casts serious doubt on the tapes'
originality and authenticity," the plaintiffs' tape
expert, Steve Cain, wrote in a Feb. 24 report.

(c) Copyright 2000 The Associated Press

==
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/2315/aponline180738_000.htm
==


WACO PROTEST: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/waco-1.htm


   "There are times when you cannot keep your job and
  put alternative explanations for data on the table."
   Former FBI Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst




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***
Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,
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entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarter

[CTRL] Waco (fwd)

[MICHAEL SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

For Immediate Release: March 19, 2000

Contact: Alex Jones 512-443-5856

Emergency: As Waco Atrocity Cover-up Unravels, Intimidation and
Murder Follow. ALEX JONES THREATENED, SHERIFF HARWELL DEAD.

As the Waco wrongful death suit progresses, death and destruction
follow.

Jack Harwell, Sheriff of McClennan County (Waco) for many years,
had called Branch Davidian and Waco Siege survivor Clive Doyle
early last week to say he wanted to meet with him because "the
death of all the children (killed at the Waco siege of 1993) was
starting to weigh on him." Harwell told Doyle that he wanted to
meet with him to talk to him about the case and the trail and
"some other things."

Harwell died Thursday morning of a heart attack. He would have
been a key witness in the wrongful death suit filed by the Branch
Davidians' attorneys.  (Please read Waco Tribune-Herald's
Article: "Officials from throughout state to attend Sheriff Jack
Harwell's funeral" and Harwell's Obituary.

Another Key witness for the plaintiffs in the Branch Davidian
wrongful death suit, Dr. Edward Allard nearly died last week when
he suffered a serious stroke. Dr. Allard is considered to be the
world authority on infrared imaging systems, holder of three
patents on FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red)  technology, whose
designs are in use in all US military aircraft and equipment that
use FLIR . Allard has analyzed FLIR footage taken by British
Special Air Services working for the FBI in 1993 and has
concluded absolutely that the video clearly shows military death
squads either Delta Force, Hostage Rescue Teams, or both firing
with wanton abandon, hundreds of times into the Branch Davidian
Church. Dr. Allard has stated, "this type of behavior, men
running up and down the building, firing automatic weapons into a
church is disgusting." Allard remains in critical condition after
his stroke.

Both of Harwell and Allard were to be key in proving that the
Federal Government premeditatedly murdered the Branch Davidians
and then systematically obstructed justice and engaged in huge
cover-ups. Now Allard is fighting for his life and Harwell is
dead.

The numbers of dead surrounding the Clinton administration and
all of its crime syndicate scandals has swollen to legendary
proportions: Vince Foster, Ron Brown, Jim McDougal.the names go
one and on. (Please go to Clinton's Body Count for a list of
related links)

Gennifer Flowers stated on CNBC last year that the reason she was
going public about the other deaths surrounding people that tried
to expose corruption in the Federal Government was that she knew
that it was one of the only ways to protect herself from the most
deadly of reprisals.

Alex Jones in the past six months, on his unlisted phone line has
received numerous death threats from anonymous callers. Who ever
they are, they are well positioned. Once, while engaging in a
phone conversation with former government agents, there was a
loud buzzing noise on the line, someone came on the line and said
"you better watch your ass.you better f***ing stop what you're
doing" - then there was something that Jones can only describe as
a power surge that went through the phone, a loud buzz and all
the phones in the house went dead for five minutes.

Recently, at Mount Carmel, a couple who had been around the Site
for some weeks, publicly, in front of witnesses, with zero
provocation, told Alex that "he would soon be dead," then pulled
out a butcher knife and jabbed it towards his chest. The couple
then admitted that they were agents and told him that "he didn't
have long to live."

Jones has maintained his silence, during the last six months
about the escalation and seriousness of various threats he has
received, not wanting his listeners/viewers/readers to be
intimidated into inaction. Now, Jones says he has to go public,
because that, in fact, is the best form of protection. He says,
"the reason Waco is so important and that government will stop at
nothing to hide the truth from the public, defame those who speak
out or, yes, even kill them is because the trail of murder leads
directly back to the White House and the young Clinton
administration, anxious to build up a popular police state in
America. "

"The Davidians were the sacrifice, but something went drastically
wrong for them - good people have stepped forward, honorable men
like Jean Cullen, former Head of CIA Global Security Operations,
who has testified to Congressional sources and has also been
deposed by one camp of the Branch Davidians lawyers. Cullen has
testified that while on foreign operations as he was directing
Delta Force Operations Delta Force agents repeatedly bragged to
him about killing Branch Davidians. I'm sure it is just a
coincidence that Mr. Cullen has had to go into hiding in a
Congressional safe house under the protection of Senator Grassly.
Mr. Cullen as well as Senator Grassly's office have confirmed
that the reason he has gone in

[CTRL] Waco Tests TOP SECRET

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco Tests TOP SECRET
Date: Saturday, March 11, 2000 4:16 AM


 Judge Walter Smith claimed that tests to determine if
 FLIR video taken over Waco shows gunshots directed at
 Mt. Carmel must be top secret to protect the "national
 security concerns" of the British government, which
 loaned the FBI the FLIR camera used (see the St. Louis
 Post-Dispatch, 2/14/00). However, four days later the
 Dallas Morning News (2/18/00) reported that the British
 government said they had no national security concerns
 regarding their FLIR technology. The fact that the
 reason judge Smith had cited for keeping the tests top
 secret was terminated did not thwart his determination
 to keep those tests secret. Now his excuse seems to be
 that the public has no constitutional right to know:


===
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/2310/aponline184319_000.htm

Public Access at Waco Test Nixed

By Michelle Mittelstadt
Associated Press Writer
Friday, March 10, 2000; 6:43 p.m. EST

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A court-ordered field test that
will re-enact aspects of the 1993 Waco siege to
determine whether federal agents fired any shots
into the Branch Davidians' retreat will be closed
to the media, a federal judge ruled Friday.

U.S. District Judge Walter Smith of Waco rejected
news organizations' argument that the test, due to
be held next weekend at Fort Hood in Texas, should
be open as a matter of public interest.

"The court has determined that the media have
identified no constitutional or common-law right
that would entitle them to access to this procedure,"
Smith wrote. "Pre-trial matters are not public
components of a civil trial."

The judge, who ordered the test and is presiding
over surviving Davidians' wrongful-death lawsuit
against the government, said the test "may be
likened to a crime scene, which unquestionably
may be closed to the public and the press in
order to preserve the integrity of the evidence."

In a motion filed earlier this month, The Associated
Press, Dallas Morning News, The New York Times and St.
Louis Post-Dispatch said a private field test "will
only increase the public's skepticism about whether
all the facts surrounding the Branch Davidian raid
have been completely and accurately disclosed." The
Waco Tribune-Herald also pressed for public access.

John Danforth, a former senator appointed special
counsel by Attorney General Janet Reno to investigate
the government's conduct during the Davidians' 1993
standoff with federal agents, argued against media
attendance. "The quickest way to discredit an
investigation is to provide the media with selective
information during its course," the special counsel
wrote in a motion.

The government and Davidians' lawyers did not oppose
public access.

A lawyer representing the news organizations expressed
disappointment with the judge's order.

"I don't believe Judge Smith or the special counsel
have identified any reason that justifies shrouding
this field test in secrecy," Dallas attorney John
Gerhart said. "This test goes to a critical issue of
whether or not the government fired weapons during
the raid. And continued secrecy on such a critical
point should not be allowed unless compelling
circumstances force that secrecy."

The Davidians' lead counsel said the public interest
would have been served by an open test.

"I just think it's unfortunate for the process because
inevitably there will be some people who will read
into this some sinister purpose, which is really not
there," said Houston lawyer Michael Caddell. "I do
think there would be a tremendous benefit created by
having press access and having someone that people
would view as not having any agenda other than to
report the facts."

The government has long denied that its agents fired
shots on April 19, 1993, during the waning hours of a
51-day siege. Davidian leader David Koresh and some
80 followers died during the inferno that occurred
several hours into an FBI tank-and-tear gas operation
designed to flush the sect members from their retreat.

Lawyers for the Davidian plaintiffs, whose case goes
to trial in mid-May, contend the FBI's aerial infrared
surveillance footage offers definitive proof of gunfire
directed into the building as it burned.

The field test, which will use a British Royal Navy
helicopter equipped with an infrared camera much like
the one used by the FBI in 1993, is designed to determine
whether bursts of light on the Waco infrared footage
represent gunfire.

Weapons similar to those carried by the Davidians and
federal agents will be fired during the test. Military
tanks like those used in 1993 also will be dep

[CTRL] Waco: Disappeared Door

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html

From: Ian Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: Disappeared Door
Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 12:32 PM


  Who fired first when the ATF attacked Mount Carmel?
  That's a question the front doors, through which the
  first shots traveled, could answer, but alas, one of
  the two metal front doors disappeared after the fire.
  Now a Texas state trooper gives some testimony that
  may be relevant to the disappearance of that door:

  -- NEWSMAX.COM 
  ===
  http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/3/10/52116
  ===

  Feds Spirited Body, Door Away at Waco, Trooper Says

  NewsMax.com
  Friday, March 10, 2000

  In startling testimony, a Texas state trooper told
  lawyers that what appeared to be a body and a missing
  door were spirited away from the Waco scene just before
  troopers took over the Mt. Carmel site from the FBI.

  Sgt. David Keys also stunned lawyers and government
  attorneys in the wrongful death case filed by survivors
  of the Branch Davidian sect when he testified that he
  overheard FBI agents talking about a "fire fight"
  taking place in the rear of the compound. The government
  has insisted there had been no gunfire in that area
  despite infrared evidence indicating there had been.

  Keys, a 17-year veteran of the Texas Department of
  Public Safety, said that about 4 p.m. on April 19,
  over an hour before Texas Rangers took possession of
  the Mt. Carmel site, his superiors ordered him to
  permit a white van to enter the area "to pick up a
  body," according to James Brannon, an attorney for
  the plaintiffs. The trooper said he saw an empty body
  bag inside the van.

  When the white van left the compound, Keys said he
  saw the body bag containing what looked like the shape
  of a corpse, Brannon said.

  "The van that Keys saw could only have been kept
  secret, at that level, by the military," Brannon
  told reporters. "If somebody was killed, they could
  just say that he was killed in a training accident.
  It's a mystery who it was and we're waiting for
  somebody in the government to tell us."

  "Keys also says that he saw something as big as a
  door being loaded into a U-Haul truck. One of the
  doors from Mount Carmel has been missing since the
  day of the fire -- the door that might prove that
  during the Feb. 28 raid, the ATF fired first,"
  Brannon added.

  Keys also testified that earlier on April 19, 1993,
  while he was at the DPS Waco commando center, he
  overheard an FBI agent say that a "firefight" was
  under way at the back of the Mount Carmel compound,
  Brannon said.

  It has been alleged that the feds fired upon the
  rear of the Mount Carmel site in the final moments
  of the tank-and-tear-gas assault of April 19, in
  what may have been an effort to prevent any of the
  Davidians from leaving the inferno alive.

  ===
  http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/3/10/52116
  ===


WACO PROTEST: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/waco-1.htm


   "There are times when you cannot keep your job and
  put alternative explanations for data on the table."
   Former FBI Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst




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==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagan

Re: [CTRL] waco Protest update

[Tara]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

I've never in my life mentioned or seen or in any way praised or
salespitched anyone's film. I think that an email list is an innappropriate
place to sell your wares.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of ali andrew
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 10:34 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] waco Protest update


-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

I wonder why you have nothing but sales pitches and praise for McNaughty's
Government film? Hm! Spooky isn't it?


Andrew  "The Watchman"

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] waco Protest update

[ali andrew]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

No. I am making current information available to those that care about the
truth of what this filthy government did and is doing.


I wonder why you have nothing but sales pitches and praise for McNaughty's
Government film? Hm! Spooky isn't it?


Andrew  "The Watchman"

Waco Video:   "X A True Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

They were HACKED to death before the fire!
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html

If you do not want updates on the current Government control of Mt.Carmel in
New Jerusalem Waco Texas, reply to this post with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject
line.



-Original Message-
From: Tara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [CTRL] Ali has a video for sale!


You wrote:
>Now you are using this list to sell a video. Prosletyzing, and using the
>list for commercial purposes. (That is Ali's email address.)



Because I spoke truth:

In The Name of Truth Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

"The Watchman"

Subject:  Protest Update

Date: March 12, 2000

This Sunday I went to Mt.Carmel in "New Jerusalem" Waco Texas to protest the
building of the new "church" . As many of you know this "church was founded
on the Sabbath, which was on a Saturday September 18,1999. Most people in
this world believe that the Sabbath is on Sunday and yet they are building
this "church" on that day.  So no matter which day you believe is the
Sabbath you must declare this "church" to be an Abomination.

Know this; According to the teachings of David Koresh it is:
"The Abomination That Maketh Desolate"!

Many of you have already seen the new video that was, in part, shot at the
beginning of this Protest on November 28, 1999.  In the video "X A True
Revelation" I was attacked, by Clive Doyle who is a government agent posing
as a follower of David Koresh.  For telling people the truth of his crimes
against God he had me arrested. They sent a helicopter gun ship and squad ca
rs to take me into custody.  Since then I have continued my protest on the
days of my choosing.  March 12th was the first 'Sunday" I protested there
since the attack by Clive Doyle and the builders.

When I arrived outside the gate I was met by a visitor who asked about the
reasons for my protest.  Once I explained it to him he, like all other
Christians, swore that he would in NO WAY support this sinful project. While
speaking to him two trucks came from the building site just as they do in
the video. Those that have seen the video know how violent these people are.
Anyone with knowledge of this current government church project call "The
Phoenix Project" can imagine what I expected. Since there were no videos
there to protect me I thought that there would be trouble.

The truck drove up to where I was and James Ritter
[EMAIL PROTECTED] stepped out. This is the same man in the video
that physically attacked me with Clive Doyle. Mr.Ritter extended his hand in
peace and apologized for his behavior and for Clive's. He said that things
just  "got out of hand". Yeah they got out of hand all right, and I  got put
in Jail!  So, it seems that he has been told by his "handlers that they are
to use different tactics since this video has been released. This is a weak
attempt to stop the truth, but the video shows them for who they are
"Members of the Bill Clinton Murderers of The Children of Waco".

At about 5:00 that afternoon I was approached by "Scott" the watchman for
their "church". He had a passenger, white male in his mid twenties. He drove
up next to me and pulled a Semi-automatic 9 mm pistol, waved it at me cocked
the hammer and smiled.

This is a crime! A clear assault!  I called the police to report it.  You
will not believe what happened next.

After giving the Waco police a report #00-15973 I was told that since the
crime occurred outside of Waco I would have to report it to the McLennan
County Sheriffs Department. This I did and was put in contact with Officer
Keon. He is the cop that arrested me in the video. Officer Keon said that he
was too busy to come out to my house to take a report!  He was suppose to be
here today, Teusday the 14th. When he didn't show up I called again. This
time when he called back he said that I had NO RIGHT to be there and that he
will arrest me if I protest there again! Also he stated that he would not
take a report from me!!

Should I lay down like a good doggie? I will lay down only if they are
cowards enough to beat me down.  I am "The Watchman" and I will sound the
alarm!

Please look at this for what it is. These people that are building this
Abomination are agents of the Bill Clinton Murderers of the Children of
Waco. The government remains in total control of this site of mass murder.
Do not be fooled by the
"Waco Suits for Waco Suckers" They are a smoke screen.

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/page/b_wsws.html

This Abomination

[CTRL] Waco protest Update 3-12-00

[ali andrew]

In The Name of Truth 
Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
 
"The 
Watchman"
 
Subject:  Protest 
Update
 
Date: March 12, 2000
 
This Sunday I went to Mt.Carmel in 
"New Jerusalem" Waco Texas to protest the building of the new 
"church" . As many of you know this "church was founded on the 
Sabbath, which was on a Saturday September 18,1999. Most people in this world 
believe that the Sabbath is on Sunday and yet they are building this 
"church" on that day.  So no matter which day you believe is the 
Sabbath you must declare this "church" to be an Abomination. 

 
Know this; According to the 
teachings of David Koresh it is: 
"The Abomination That Maketh 
Desolate"!
 
Many of you have already seen the new video that 
was, in part, shot at the beginning of this Protest on November 28, 1999.  
In the video "X A True Revelation" I was 
attacked, by Clive Doyle who is a government agent posing as a follower of David 
Koresh.  For telling people the truth of his crimes against God he had me 
arrested. They sent a helicopter gun ship and squad cars to take me into 
custody.  Since then I have continued my protest on the days of my 
choosing.  March 12th was the first 'Sunday" I protested there since 
the attack by Clive Doyle and the builders. 
 
When I arrived outside the gate I was met by a 
visitor who asked about the reasons for my protest.  Once I explained it to 
him he, like all other Christians, swore that 
he would in NO WAY support this sinful project. While speaking to him two trucks 
came from the building site just as they do in the video. Those that have seen 
the video know how violent these people are. Anyone with knowledge of this 
current government church project call "The Phoenix Project" can 
imagine what I expected. Since there were no videos there to protect me I 
thought that there would be trouble.
 
The truck drove up to where I was and James 
Ritter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
stepped out. This is the same man in the video that physically attacked me with 
Clive Doyle. Mr.Ritter extended his hand in peace and apologized for his 
behavior and for Clive's. He said that things just  "got out of 
hand". Yeah they got out of hand all right, and I  got put in 
Jail!  So, it seems that he has been told by his "handlers that they 
are to use different tactics since this video has been released. This is a weak 
attempt to stop the truth, but the video shows them for who they are 
"Members of the Bill Clinton Murderers of The Children of 
Waco".
 
At about 5:00 that afternoon I was approached by 
"Scott" the watchman for their "church". He had a passenger, 
white male in his mid twenties. He drove up next to me and pulled a 
Semi-automatic 9 mm pistol, waved it at me cocked the hammer and smiled. 

 
This is a crime! A clear assault!  I called 
the police to report it.  You will not believe what happened 
next.
 
After giving the Waco police a report #00-15973 I 
was told that since the crime occurred outside of Waco I would have to report it 
to the McLennan County Sheriffs Department. This I did and was put in contact 
with Officer Keon. He is the cop that arrested me in the video. Officer Keon 
said that he was too busy to come out to my house to take a report!  He was 
suppose to be here today, Teusday the 14th. When he didn't show up I called 
again. This time when he called back he said that I had NO RIGHT to be there and 
that he will arrest me if I protest there again! Also he stated that he would 
not take a report from me!!
 
Should I lay down like a good doggie? I will lay 
down only if they are cowards enough to beat me down.  I am "The 
Watchman" and I will sound the alarm!
 
Please look at this for what it is. These people 
that are building this Abomination are agents of the Bill Clinton Murderers of 
the Children of Waco. The government remains in total control of this site of 
mass murder. Do not be fooled by the 
"Waco Suits for Waco Suckers" They are 
a smoke screen.
 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/page/b_wsws.html
 
This Abomination must not be 
permitted to continue!  Speak against it! 
Do not support it with money! And 
for the sake of your own soul do not enter it!
 
Andrew  "The 
Watchman"
 
 
Waco Video:  "X A True 
Revelation"  $10.98 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
They were HACKED to death before 
the fire!http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
 
If you do not want updates on the 
current Government control of Mt.Carmel in New Jerusalem Waco Texas, reply to 
this post with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line.
 

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest Today!

[Nurev Ind Research]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

ali andrew wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
>  -Cui Bono?-
>
> This was probably your attitude seven years ago when the "Bill Clinton
> Murderers of The Children of Waco" were torturing men women and Babies
> because they would not submit to the illegitimate authority of
> Babylon.. as you have.
>
> Andrew

Actually I was outraged.

Joshua2

>
> -Original Message-
> From: Nurev Ind Research <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 7:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest Today!
>
> >-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> > -Cui Bono?-
> >
> >3/5/00
> >
> >I wish that religion could produce as prodigious a supply of fresh
> >clean water, as well as it produces such an overflowing of lunatics.
> >
> >Joshua2
> >=
> >> ali andrew wrote:
> >>
> >>In The Name of God Most Gracious Most Merciful
> >>
> >> An Open Letter to "Clive Doyle"
> >>
> >> I am coming to New Jerusalem (Mt.Carmel) to declare the"Truth" about
> >> the crimes that you are committing against the Martyrs and against
> >> the laws of God.
> >>
> >> I will not trespass on the property, because as I said on November
> >> 28,1999 when you had me arrested for speaking the Truth, "I don't
> >> want to come on that land be be a part of the "Synagogue Unto Satan"
> >> that you are building there for the Bill Clinton Murders of the
> >> Children of Waco.
> >>
> >> I will be unarmed, because my God is enough of a protector from the
> >> EVIL you and the KKK spread. I will again raise the flag of Christ
> >> again against your flag that is soaked in the blood of the Children
> >> of the World. If you attack it again I will defend it again...and
> >> again you will lose.
> >>
> >> I will be handing out flyers that state:
> >>
> >>   X XX
> >>
> >> The Abomination That Maketh Desolate
> >>  The foundation of this "church" was laid on the Sabbath by
> >>  Clive Doyle
> >>  This is a violation of the Laws of God and a Slander of the
> >>Martyrs
> >>
> >>  *Now that you know "DO NOT" enter it or support it*
> >>
> >> For more information about the current government control of
> >> New Jerusalem
> >>   Contact Andrew "The Watchman"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
> >>
> >
> >http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
> >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> >==
> >CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
> propagandic
> >screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
> matters
> >and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
> outright
> >frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
> >spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> >gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
> readers;
> >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
> >nazi's need not apply.
> >
> >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> >
> >Archives Available at:
> >http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
> >
> >http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> >
> >To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
> >SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
> >SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Om
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds—is used politically by different groups with maj

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest Today!

[William Shannon]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

In a message dated 3/7/00 10:30:51 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< This was probably your attitude seven years ago when the "Bill Clinton
 Murderers of The Children of Waco"  >>

Also known as the "Waco Wacko Davidiot BBQ And Bonfire"???

Bill.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest Today!

[ali andrew]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

This was probably your attitude seven years ago when the "Bill Clinton
Murderers of The Children of Waco" were torturing men women and Babies
because they would not submit to the illegitimate authority of
Babylon.. as you have.

Andrew


-Original Message-
From: Nurev Ind Research <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest Today!


>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>3/5/00
>
>I wish that religion could produce as prodigious a supply of fresh
>clean water, as well as it produces such an overflowing of lunatics.
>
>Joshua2
>=
>> ali andrew wrote:
>>
>>In The Name of God Most Gracious Most Merciful
>>
>> An Open Letter to "Clive Doyle"
>>
>> I am coming to New Jerusalem (Mt.Carmel) to declare the"Truth" about
>> the crimes that you are committing against the Martyrs and against
>> the laws of God.
>>
>> I will not trespass on the property, because as I said on November
>> 28,1999 when you had me arrested for speaking the Truth, "I don't
>> want to come on that land be be a part of the "Synagogue Unto Satan"
>> that you are building there for the Bill Clinton Murders of the
>> Children of Waco.
>>
>> I will be unarmed, because my God is enough of a protector from the
>> EVIL you and the KKK spread. I will again raise the flag of Christ
>> again against your flag that is soaked in the blood of the Children
>> of the World. If you attack it again I will defend it again...and
>> again you will lose.
>>
>> I will be handing out flyers that state:
>>
>>   X XX
>>
>> The Abomination That Maketh Desolate
>>  The foundation of this "church" was laid on the Sabbath by
>>  Clive Doyle
>>  This is a violation of the Laws of God and a Slander of the
>>Martyrs
>>
>>  *Now that you know "DO NOT" enter it or support it*
>>
>> For more information about the current government control of
>> New Jerusalem
>>   Contact Andrew "The Watchman"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
>>
>
>http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
matters
>and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Om

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest Today!

[Nurev Ind Research]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

3/5/00

I wish that religion could produce as prodigious a supply of fresh
clean water, as well as it produces such an overflowing of lunatics.

Joshua2
=
> ali andrew wrote:
>
>In The Name of God Most Gracious Most Merciful
>
> An Open Letter to "Clive Doyle"
>
> I am coming to New Jerusalem (Mt.Carmel) to declare the"Truth" about
> the crimes that you are committing against the Martyrs and against
> the laws of God.
>
> I will not trespass on the property, because as I said on November
> 28,1999 when you had me arrested for speaking the Truth, "I don't
> want to come on that land be be a part of the "Synagogue Unto Satan"
> that you are building there for the Bill Clinton Murders of the
> Children of Waco.
>
> I will be unarmed, because my God is enough of a protector from the
> EVIL you and the KKK spread. I will again raise the flag of Christ
> again against your flag that is soaked in the blood of the Children
> of the World. If you attack it again I will defend it again...and
> again you will lose.
>
> I will be handing out flyers that state:
>
>   X XX
>
> The Abomination That Maketh Desolate
>  The foundation of this "church" was laid on the Sabbath by
>  Clive Doyle
>  This is a violation of the Laws of God and a Slander of the
>Martyrs
>
>  *Now that you know "DO NOT" enter it or support it*
>
> For more information about the current government control of
> New Jerusalem
>   Contact Andrew "The Watchman"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
>

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Waco Protest Today!

[ali andrew]

In The Name of God Most Gracious Most 
Merciful
 
An Open Letter to "Clive 
Doyle" 
 
I am coming to New Jerusalem 
(Mt.Carmel) to declare the"Truth" about the crimes that you 
are committing against the Martyrs and against the laws of God.
 
I will not trespass on the property, 
because as I said on November 28,1999 when you had me arrested for speaking the 
Truth, "I don't want to come on that land be be a part of the 
"Synagogue Unto Satan" that you are building there for the Bill 
Clinton Murders of the Children of Waco.
 
I will be unarmed, because my God is 
enough of a protector from the EVIL you and the KKK spread. I will again raise 
the flag of Christ again against your flag that is soaked in the blood of the 
Children of the World. If you attack it again I will defend it again...and again 
you will lose.
 
I will be handing out flyers that 
state:
 
X 
X    
X
 
The 
Abomination That Maketh Desolate
The foundation of this 
"church" was laid on the Sabbath by
Clive 
Doyle
This is a violation of the 
Laws of God and a Slander of the
Martyrs
 
*Now that you know "DO 
NOT" enter it or support it*
 
For more information about 
the current government control of
New Jerusalem
Contact Andrew "The Watchman"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html
 

[CTRL] Waco tester is tied to feds (fwd)

[MICHAEL SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:23:03 -0600
From: Brenda C. Jinkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: SAE: Waco tester is tied to feds

Waco tester is tied to feds

(Last updated Monday, Feb 28, 2000)


By Dick J. Reavis
San Antonio Express-News Staff Writer

A technology firm hired to re-create scenes from the 1993 FBI
assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco has links to the
federal government, critics of the government's role in the siege
say.

The British firm, Vector Data Systems, was selected to oversee
the re-enactment, which will seek to determine whether federal
agents fired on Davidians on April 19, 1993. Survivors of those
who died in the fire that ended the siege have filed a wrongful
death suit against the federal government, slated for a May trial
in Waco.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs and the government agreed to
Vector's appointment to the case, at the suggestion of former
U.S. Sen. John Danforth, R-Mo., who is investigating the Mount
Carmel events on behalf of the Justice Department.

Danforth's office declined comment on the selection.

The company will supervise the filming of a scene in which U.S.
Army personnel will discharge firearms at a Fort Hood range,
while two aircraft - one American, one British - will film the
scene using FLIR, or forward-looking-infrared, cameras. The
exercise will determine whether FLIR equipment is capable of
registering images of gun blasts.

Plaintiffs' attorneys allege flashes seen on a FLIR tape made by
the FBI on the day of the Mount Carmel fire show flashes of
gunfire.

Roger Charles, a Washington intelligence affairs expert, and
sierratimes.com, a Webzine published by Nevada conspiracy buff J.
J. Johnson, claimed last weekend that Vector is too tied to
government interests to be objective.

"These guys can show you video, FLIR or otherwise, of a cow
jumping over the moon and you'll swear it's what the camera is
seeing," Charles said.

Vector is a subsidiary of the Anteon Corp., an American firm and
a major defense contractor, with more than $300 million in
federal contracts, most of them for military projects.

Vector's American office in Virginia developed "Topscene," or the
Tactical Operations Preview Scene, a computer combat-simulation
program that American military forces have used since the Persian
Gulf War.

In 1998, the Washington Post reported a sister company of Vector
"performed secret tasks for the CIA and the U.S. military."

Spokesmen for Anteon, Vector and the Justice Department didn't
return phone calls Monday.

Vector's job in the Waco re-enactment, set for March 18, will be
to see that procedures for conducting the test fairly are carried
out.

Joining Charles in raising doubt about Vector's role in the test
is Gordon Novel, a New Orleans electronics expert and private
detective responsible for the allegation that the FBI's FLIR tape
shows gunfire.

James Brannon, attorney for David Koresh's survivors, says
reports of Vector's defense connections "causes me deep concern."
But the lead attorney for the plaintiffs, Michael Caddell of
Houston, says he expected as much.

"My assessment," he said, "is that in this area, you've not going
to get anybody who is really expert who isn't connected to the
government."


=
 Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT

  FROM THE DESK OF:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  *Mike Spitzer* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
   Shalom, A Salaam Aleikum, and to all, A Good Day.
=

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
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Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest

[William Shannon]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

"Ali's" constant harping on this topic is sickening and the cause of decent
people on other, and like-minded, lists to leave...I'd hate to see "Ali" get
his way here.

This from another list...

<<"They will most likely have me arrested..."
Andrew


We can only hope.

Others are leaving the list because of Ali.  I think a lot of people may
have left already. Is there a moderator on this list or does anyone know how
to contact the forum webmaster?

I joined another list last night and if anyone knows of others that are in
any way comparable to this list minus Ali Andrew, would you please let me
know?  You'll have to email me privately. I'll be gone from this list.

And I would set my software to delete Ali, but I would still get responses
from others, and so I'd get his stuff in the long run anyway.

Tara>>

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest

[don wishart]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Where do all the angry people on this list come from?  Rude and Crude! Must
not have much education, and certainly no upbringing!


>From: ali andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest
>Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:52:47 -0600
>
>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>I only hope that I am as big a pain in your ass, which you obviously use as
>your head, as I wish to be.
>-Original Message-
>From: William Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest
>
>
> >-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> > -Cui Bono?-
> >
> >In a message dated 2/28/00 12:39:55 PM Central Standard Time,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> ><< I go now to defend the Martyrs, >>
> >
> >Good...will you be gone long? Take your time...
> >Bill.
> >
> >http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
> >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> >==
> >CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
>propagandic
> >screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
>matters
> >and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
>outright
> >frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor
>effects
> >spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> >gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
>readers;
> >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
> >nazi's need not apply.
> >
> >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> >
> >Archives Available at:
> >http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
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> >Om
>
>http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
>propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
>matters
>and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
>outright
>frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
>readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
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>Om

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http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
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Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest

[ali andrew]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

I only hope that I am as big a pain in your ass, which you obviously use as
your head, as I wish to be.
-Original Message-
From: William Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest


>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>In a message dated 2/28/00 12:39:55 PM Central Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< I go now to defend the Martyrs, >>
>
>Good...will you be gone long? Take your time...
>Bill.
>
>http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
matters
>and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
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>Om

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest

[don wishart]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Bill, You display your ignorance of Law.  My post is coming soon, and I will
show that what was done at Waco, which, your response, below, you must also
participate in the murder of men, women, and children, Christians and Jews,
and all of mankind that have been butchered by whatever egomaniac is in
power.  Regards, Don Wishart, DMD


>From: William Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest
>Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:43:33 EST
>
>-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
> -Cui Bono?-
>
>In a message dated 2/28/00 12:39:55 PM Central Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< I go now to defend the Martyrs, >>
>
>Good...will you be gone long? Take your time...
>Bill.
>
>http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
>propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid
>matters
>and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
>outright
>frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
>readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
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>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
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>
>Om

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Re: [CTRL] Waco Protest

[William Shannon]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

In a message dated 2/28/00 12:39:55 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< I go now to defend the Martyrs, >>

Good...will you be gone long? Take your time...
Bill.

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==
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[CTRL] Waco Protest

[ali andrew]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

  In The Name of God Most Gracious Most Merciful



February 28, 2000


Today I go to the church of David Koresh to protest the building of a church
that was founded on the Sabbath September 18,1999 by Clive Doyle. It is "The
Abomination That Maketh Desolate".

There is a party going on there today. The party is being thrown by the Bill
Clinton Murderers of the Children of Waco. They will most likely have me
arrested,as they did on Nov. 28,1999. But Christ never said that walking in
the truth was going to be easy. In fact he said that the beast would lock
you up torture you and kill you.

I have a video that shows Clives Doyle on Nov.28 in full cooperation with
the police and assaulting me. This video is free.
I may be out of action for awhile after today so if you are interested in
seeing how the Government still controls "New Jerusalem" in Waco Texas
contact my friend Ron Goins he is a "Witness" living here in Waco:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I go now to defend the Martyrs,

Andrew

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==
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[CTRL] Waco Walk

[Gavin Phillips]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Dear citizens and patriots:

In just a few days, Feb. 28th, will mark the anniversary date of "Day 1" of
the "51 Days of Terror" suffered by the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX.
April 19th will mark the last day in which a total of 82 men women and
children were viciously slaughtered.

Forty-one women and children, senselessly murdered in what became their
concrete tomb.  Charred remnants of a child's doll was all that remained in
tact after our government came to "save" the children.  All of their voices
were savagely silenced.  Let's end their silence, and bring to the public our
voices!

I was contacted this month from a radio show host from Las Vegas named "Lady
Liberty". She has come up with an excellent idea to organize a walk or march
down the main streets of our own home towns all over the nation beginning
February 28, 2000, and ending April 19, 1993.  Each city will march on
different days.
The Tucson rally is tentatively set for around March 25th, a Saturday.
(I will be in Waco on April 19th, so I cannot schedule one then)
I am still working out the details of where to set it up, and would
appreciate suggestions and feedback.
If your organization has a Tucson or Phoenix office, please notify them of
this e-mail.
This will be a walk for freedom to awaken the public and to commemorate and
memorialize all the civilians who have been murdered, tortured, or brutalized
by city, county, and state governments and federal jack-booted thugs.
This will also be an awakening to the eyes of our government officials to
tell them that we are NOT going to lie down in silence when we witness the
murder of innocents.  OKC and Ruby Ridge will be remembered also.

I am only one woman, and so far I am in this alone.  I 'will' walk alone in
protest if I am the only one who shows up.  But by glancing at this list of
names I'm mailing, I don't believe I will be standing alone.  Please e-mail
me or call this number to say you will attend, or help do something minimal
to get this off the ground.
If enough people and organizations show up, perhaps Davidian lawyer Dave
Hardy (he lives here in Tucson) could hold a press conference to help out.  I
will be designing and making posters and signs, and will be distributing a
petition Mr. Hardy had drawn up calling for the pardon of the Davidian
prisoners.
Listen folks, we could really make a difference, and collect a lot of
signatures.
While Waco is in the news, we need to have our voices heard.  With my web
site, and my Waco Tragedy News mailing list, I have made my voice heard on
the web... now it's time for where it really counts.. in the streets of
downtown.
This is the last time Waco will be looked at, I fear.  The time is NOW to
speak out... will you join me?

~Sharlene Shappart~
(520) 318-3198

PS.  Below are hyper links to a poster I'm designing for the rally and a link
to where the petition is.  Thank you.
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/ww21ac.jpg">http://www.wizardsofaz.co
m/waco/ww21ac.jpg-poster
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/petition.jpg">http://www.wizardsofaz.
com/waco/petition.jpg-nice and big for printing.  Please feel free to
distribute on your web sites, or send to friends.

http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html">Please take a
moment to picture this...
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html">http://www.wizardso
faz.com/waco/picturethis.html
"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
Abraham Lincoln

If you wish to not receive Waco Tragedy News, please reply to this e-mail
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[CTRL] Waco Re-Enactment Looks Like Set-up (fwd)

[MICHAEL SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Waco Re-Enactment Looks Like Set-up
By Ed Wolfe - Webslinger of Sierra Times.com
February 19, 2000


The federal government is sick and tired of defending it's
actions in Waco and has agreed to perform a re-enactment of the
final events leading to the end of the 51 day siege on the Mt.
Carmel complex on April 19th, 1993. Federal Judge Walter Smith,
(Clinton appointee) has decided on a re-enactment which is
tentatively scheduled to take place on March 18th or 19th of this
year at Fort Hood, Texas.

Judge Smith is currently presiding over a wrongful death lawsuit
filed against the government by surviving members of the 7th Day
Adventist sect commonly known as the Branch Davidians.

The purpose of the re-enactment is to settle the issue of whether
or not FBI agents fired at the house and the survivors on the
last day of the siege. Critics of the government claim that house
occupants fleeing from the mysterious fire ran directly into the
gunfire of FBI agents instead of the relative safety they sought.
The government maintains that not only did it's agents not shoot
the survivors, but that they never even fired their weapons on
that final, tragic day.

Special Counsel, John Danforth, former Republican Senator from
Missouri has been investigating the incident at Mt.Carmel and is
credited with bringing about the re-enactment, which both sides
hope will prove their case. However, anyone with average
intelligence has to be curious about a few facts regarding the
interpretation of the test results.

According to the St. Louis Dispatch, John Danforth recommended to
Judge Smith that a "British" company called Vector Data Systems
should be the one to conduct the test and to interpret the
results. VDS is reported to have former Royal Air Force pilots in
it's employ, to be experts at interpreting infrared images, and
most significantly, to be an "independent" expert that both the
government and the Davidian lawyers can count on for impartial
analysis.

This is where something stinks in St. Louis.

Vector Data Systems is not a British company, and as far as this
writer can determine, never was. Although it may have RAF pilots
in it's employ, that would probably be due to the fact that VDS
has branches in the United Kingdom, Australia and Korea in
addition to it's headquarters in Alexandria, Virginia. The
company was purchased in 1997 as one of the first in a string of
information technology acquisitions by the Anteon Corporation.

Anteon Corporation, head-quartered in Fairfax, VA is not a
British company either. Although it's possible that Anteon will
be using it's British subsidiary of Vector Data Systems to
conduct the test and interpret it's results, it is misleading to
simply state that the independent expert is "a British company."

Even more interesting is the fact that Danforth who is supposed
to be seeking the truth, picked an unusual company to serve as
the "impartial" arbiter of the test results. The Anteon
Corporation is a very high tech, multi-million dollar company
that gets a large share of it's profits from federal government
contracts.

And we're not talking about the British government either. Just
last month Anteon signed a 2.2 million dollar deal with the
General Services Administration to provide program management
analyses and assessments for the United States submarine force.

In December of last year, Anteon scored another $10 mil from the
government till in a deal with the Veterans Health
Administration. Two months before that, Anteon signed a 7.8
million dollar contract with the U.S. Coast Guard. September was
another lucrative month resulting in a $43 million dollar
contract with the U.S. Navy.  Finally, topping the list is a $250
million dollar Blanket Purchase Agreement with the GSA to provide
the federal government with critical infrastructure service as
ordered in Presidential Decision Directive #63, penned by Bill
Clinton on May 28, 1998.

PDD #63 calls for the following:

"...strengthening of the nation's defenses against emerging
unconventional threats to critical infrastructures, the physical
and cyber-based systems essential to the functioning of the
United States economy and the government. These include essential
government services, information and communications, banking and
finance, energy, transportation, water supply, public health, law
enforcement, and emergency services."

Anteon, the parent company of Vector Data Systems, will provide
services and products in the following areas:  critical
infrastructure asset identification; vulnerability and threat
assessment; readiness and contingency planning; physical
infrastructure protection; cyber security and information
assurance; and emergency preparedness training, exercises, and
simulation.

(Apparently Anteon is the contractor responsible for protecting
us and the government from the recent internet attacks.)

This is the independent "British" company that Special Counsel
Jo

[CTRL] WACO: FBI still in state of denial!

[archibaldbard]

Bard

"...stick the tax forms where the moon don't shine."
-- Steve Vaus
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/15/steve_vaus.html
Title: Government Reverses Waco Statement






































































  





Government Reverses Waco Statement




By Michelle Mittelstadt



Associated Press Writer



Thursday, Feb. 17, 2000; 8:43 p.m. EST



WASHINGTON ––  The government's acknowledgment that a type of infrared camera the FBI used during the 1993 Waco siege can detect gunfire is a "stunning reversal" from its long-held position, Branch Davidian lawyers contended Thursday.

One of the government's lead lawyers in the wrongful death case said Wednesday that the camera is capable of detecting gunfire "in some circumstances." But Michael Bradford, a U.S. attorney in Texas, continued to assert that federal agents did not fire any shots on April 19, 1993.

A demonstration planned for next month in Texas will test the Branch Davidians' claim that federal agents fired their weapons. Both sides hope the test will determine what caused more than 100 flashes to show up on the infrared tape the FBI shot of the siege. They plan to compare the FBI tape and aerial surveillance footage made at the re-creation.

Branch Davidian lawyers contend Bradford's comment about the Forward Looking Infrared camera is a tacit admission that the test will detect gunfire.

"What we're seeing is the government can read the handwriting on the wall, so to speak, and their experts have told them, 'Expect to see gunfire flashes on the (infrared) demonstration tapes that are going to look just like the flashes on the April 1993 tape,'" said Michael Caddell, the lead counsel for Davidians suing the government.

Three months ago, the government appeared skeptical about the camera's ability to detect gunfire. In a filing in federal court in Waco, Texas, the Justice Department proposed to test the plaintiffs' "hypothesis" that gunfire can be captured on camera.

The FBI's own camera operators, in more recent depositions, denied the camera could detect muzzle blasts, Caddell and co-counsel Jim Brannon said.

"Now they see they are going to lose the test, they are shifting gears," Brannon said. "To diminish the test before you ever run it, that's the best strategy you could ever follow, isn't it?"

The court-ordered field test is expected to play a key role at the trial, which is set to begin in mid-May. Some 80 Davidians died during the siege, some from the fire, others from gunshot wounds.

In their lawsuit, the survivors and relatives of the dead allege that government negligence and excessive force contributed to the tragedy. The government has denied wrongdoing, saying the Davidians set the stage for their own deaths.

The government has long insisted that no shots were directed at the Davidians during the culmination of the 51-day siege, which ended when the compound was consumed by flames several hours into an FBI tear-gassing operation designed to flush them out.

In an interview Thursday, Bradford denied any shift in the government's stance. As for statements made during the depositions, he said the plaintiffs' lawyers interviewed "individual FBI agents that we did not offer as experts."

The field test, scheduled for an Army outpost in central Texas in mid-March, is about more than whether FLIR can capture gunfire, Bradford said. Also central to resolving the controversy is whether the cameras used during the field test will detect people on the ground, he said, noting the 1993 FLIR did not capture any agents stationed outside the compound when the bursts of light appear.

People, like bullets, give off heat, so both should appear, the government contends.

"In our opinion, what will show up on that tape will be so starkly different from what is on the April 19th tape that it will be evident that (what occurred) April 19th is not gunfire," Bradford said.

The plaintiffs contend the 1993 FLIR didn't record the agents because the temperature of their clothing, as they lay prone, was similar to the ground temperature.


© Copyright 2000 The Associated Press

Back to the top




















  

[CTRL] Waco Tests: Public KEEP OUT!

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: Ian Goddard 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco Tests: Public KEEP OUT!
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 3:11 PM


 The make & model of the FLIR used is already known. What it
 does is already seen on the released FLIR video, so why are
 they keeping the FLIR test top-secret in order to protect
 "national security" secrets about the FLIR camera?! When
 does the public's right to know become a national security
 priority? The People are on the bottom of the "food chain."


==
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH - Monday, February 14, 2000

Waco infrared simulation closed to public, press

By William H. Freivogel and

Terry Ganey
Of the Post-Dispatch

The public and the press will be barred from next month's
test to determine whether the FBI fired on the Branch Davidians
during the 1993 siege near Waco, Texas. The public will also
be barred from Wednesday's meeting to plan the test.

U.S. District Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. told the Post-Dispatch
Monday that reporters would not be able to attend the test.

"For national security and safety reasons, access will be
strictly limited," he wrote. "Neither the media nor the
public will be permitted to attend."

In a brief interview Monday, Smith said the decision was not
his.

"You have two governments here, and the British government is
the one with the national security concerns," he said.

A British helicopter and infrared camera are being used in the
re-enactment to determine whether they record groundfire as
flashes. Flashes appear on an infrared videotape taken of the
complex on the day of the assault, April, 19, 1993.

Smith is on his way to St. Louis Tuesday to prepare for
Wednesday's meeting where participants will iron out how the
test will be conducted.

Special Counsel John C. Danforth refused to say why the
meeting is closed. "He is telling me that our response is
'No response,' " said Jan Diltz, Danforth's spokewoman.

The decisions to close the test and the meeting about the
test ran into strong criticism on Monday from legal and
constitutional experts and from lawyers for those Branch
Davidians who survived the 1993 siege and are suing the
government.

Paul McMasters, the First Amendment ombudsman at the Freedom
Forum in Arlington, Va., noted that the government had pushed
back the press before the ill-fated assault on the complex in 1993.

"If the press had been allowed to cover the actual event,
we might not be having to go through a court case and a
government investigation seven years later," said McMasters,
the former managing editor of the Springfield (Mo.) News-Leader.


"It seems to me that to keep the press away from a test
ordered by the court and the Office of Special Counsel is
just replicating one of the more dangerous aspects of the
original tragedy, and that is to assume that the press can't
play a vital role just by observing.

"Not only does the public have a real vested interest in the
full matter, it may well be that there are people with knowledge
who can contribute to the success of the test but won't know
about it or won't know how it is being conducted."

McMasters said that relying on the use of British equipment
to explain why the test is closed seems to be more of a "cover
story" than a good reason for keeping the press out.

Bruce LaPierre, a constitutional law expert at Washington
University, said the "First Amendment presumption is that the
government is open to public scrutiny. There ought to be a
reason before the government restricts access. But no one has
told you what the reason is."

The Supreme Court has ruled that the press has a First
Amendment right to attend legal proceedings unless the
government states an overriding interest in secrecy.

Legal issues aside, LaPierre said that closing the Wednesday
session was a political blunder.

"Wouldn't it promote public confidence if there were public
scrutiny, particularly where some people think that the
government is involved in a conspiracy?" he said. "Why would
you play into the hands of the people who think this is a
conspiracy? It is counterproductive."

LaPierre said Danforth and the court could probably come up
with national security reasons to close the portion of the
Wednesday meeting that deals with classified information
about the type of infrared camera to be used. But it would
be harder for the government to justify closing the
unclassified portion of the meeting, he added.

Ronald Levin, a Washington University law professor and an
expert on court procedures, said the Wednesday meeting is
unusual because it is being held in Danforth's office
instead of the judge's.

Attorney General Janet Reno appointed Danforth last summer
to investigate the

[CTRL] Waco Government by Child Murder

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: Weldon Clark 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco Government by Child Murder
Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 11:08 PM

Waco Government by Child Murder
By Weldon Clark

In order to win the fight to keep our guns we must mount an
offensive.  Instead of just asking Congress not to enact more
GUN LAWS, point out that the Federal Government is run by
a minority of people who are operating the government as if it
were a third world thugrocracy using GUN LAWS.  Ruby
Ridge was just such a case that NRA gave wide publicity to.
However NRA has not chosen to publicize Waco.

Please read all of the stories below.  That by Mr. Knox says
"NO ONE HAD REMEMBERED TO BRING THE SEARCH
WARRANT".  The story by Vin Suprynowicz says they shot
Davidians trying to go into Mount Carmel who had nothing to
do with the raid. The "60 Minutes II" segment on January 26,
2000 hosted by Dan Rather said their expert says FBI fired
into the Davidian Compound.

I urge you to write and call your CONGRESSMAN AND
STATE LEGISLATORS now.  This can now be accomplished
at the speed of light, thanks to WorldNetDaily's new
Legislative Action Center. http://congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/
You can call your two Senators at (202) 224-3121 and your
Representative at (202) 225-3121 at the Capitol Switchboard.
Here is the URL for Congressional Telephone Directory:
http://clerkweb.house.gov/106/mbrcmtee/members/teledir/me
mbers/cdframe.htm
Here's an e-mail link to Congress. http://in-search-of.org/
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
http://www.gunowners.org/mailerx.html
For legislative updates contact www.nealknox.com and go to
"Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line"
What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia
Weapons see  www.2ndamendment.net
To spread the word call Rush Limbaugh at 800-282-2882 and
callers may call in from 12 noon to 3PM EST, M-F

If you can, contribute to pressing the civil suits brought by the
Davidians. Most of what they had went up in smoke, and
they're now faced with the need to finance lawsuits against
the government--which is defending with your tax dollars.
None of this money is for attorney fees.  The case requires
expensive depositions.  Contributions can be sent to (and
checks made out to) WACO JUSTICE FUND 5847 San
Felipe Suite 1450 Houston, TX 77057.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Neal Knox)
Dallas Morning News Reporter Lee Hancock has three major
stories detailing internal FBI and Justice Department
criticisms of the Branch Davidian assault, which were omitted
from the Justice Department's public report.

Key negotiators (other than Byron Sage) and various
behavioral and religious experts criticized field commander
Jeff Jamar and the Hostage Rescue Team for torpedoing
negotiations -- such as by sending in tanks to destroy the
Davidians' cars on the morning that 20 people had been
expected to come out.

Former FBI Director Bill Sessions, a Waco native who had
been forbidden by the Clinton Administration to go to Texas
to try to resolve the standoff, had ordered that tanks not be
used without his permission -- which he never gave.

The documents show that Jamar and the HRT were
determined to punish everyone in the compound for killing
five BATF agents when the agency mounted a commando
attack, supposedly to search for illegal firearms -- though NO
ONE HAD REMEMBERED TO BRING THE SEARCH
WARRANT.

Hancock's reports may be read at
http://www.dallasnews.com/specials/waco/
***
>From THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
Video contends Davidians were machine-gunned

Is it possible David Koresh didn't lose his confrontation with
the Godless state he and his followers identified as
"Babylon," at all?

Throughout their 51-day Texas standoff in the spring of 1993,
Koresh and his followers repeatedly compared their plight to
that of God's people facing the "flaming chariots" of Babylon
in the biblical prophesies of Nahum and Habakkuk. A follower
says Koresh believed he would be the one to "bring down
Babylon" by sacrificing himself and his denomination.

Will it turn out that -- like an earlier group of Texas martyrs
who died buying time for Sam Houston at the Alamo -- the
Branch Davidians still retain the power to reach out from the
grave and smite their oppressors?

After completing the documentary "Waco: The Rules of
Engagement' -- nominated for an Academy Award --
researcher Mike McNulty continued to delve into the central
mystery of Waco: Why would scores of perfectly sane and
decent Christian Americans apparently choose to condemn
themselves and their "unusually bright and well-treated"
children (per Texas child welfare authori

[CTRL] Waco Bomb: WANR

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: Ian Goddard 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco Bomb: WANR
Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 4:59 AM


  I recently acquired a copy of the new documentary
  Waco: A New Revelation (http://Waco-ANewRevelation.com).
  Even before it was finished it led to a Congressional
  inquiry into Waco. I could not more strongly recommend
  this video! The government granted them permission to
  test the remains of the demolished concrete room for
  traces of military-explosives residue. Former FBI
  Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst, who narrates
  the video, accompanied them to the site. However,
  the portion of the room they were looking for was
  not to be found even after an exhaustive search.

  WANR interviews military operations and explosives
  experts who conclude that a shaped-charge bomb blasted
  through the roof of the concrete room, or church vault.
  It's a disturbing conclusion that's easy to agree
  with: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacorom2.htm

  Steven M. Barry, a retired Sergeant First Class from
  the U.S. Army Special Forces states: "The blast hole at
  the top of the roof, you can plainly see the rebar is
  bent in. The damage to the stainless steel refrigerator,
  which appears to have been under the blast hole, is
  consistent with a shaped charge. And the blast, being
  directed downward into the room -- in this inclosed
  concrete room -- would very likely create some seam
  rupture and create a huge overpressure inside the room
  that would pretty much kill everyone in there. Anybody
  who was under this device when it was blown would have
  been horribly mangled, probably dismembered, pretty
  much like being thrown into a grain crusher."

  As Barry spoke, WANR showed the evidence he refers to.
  The bodies from the concrete room that were delimbed,
  decapitated, and hideously mutilated beyond recognition
  are compelling evidence of a powerful explosion. Colonel
  Jack Frost, a retired U.S. Air Force Ordnance Engineer
  concludes: "Having examined still photographs and video-
  tapes of the bunker it was apparent to me that this was
  caused by a shaped charge. But what bothers me is who
  would have the audacity to use such a charge."

  Sergeant Steve Barry, quoted above, is then shown saying:
  "Rather than risk your own people going in there and try
  to shoot it out with them, it's a standard tactic in city
  fighting in military operations in built-up terrain to use
  an explosive in this manor [as seen at Waco] to kill people
  in a targeted room that you're going to attack." Brigadier
  General Benton K. Partin, a retired U.S. Air Force Ordnance
  Engineer, then grimly concluded: "It's very obvious that
  the effort that was demonstrated there assured that there
  would be no survivors in the church records vault."

  It's easier to believe it can't be true if only because it's
  hard to believe anyone could do that to woman and children;
  but we have a classic shaped-charge-blast-hole in a bombed-
  out room filled with hideously militated bodies, cracks and
  seam rupture around the room indicate that a powerful over-
  pressure filled the room. It's compelling evidence, and
  it's why experts are telling us the room was bombed.
  We should remember that the FBI dropped a bomb on the
  MOVE headquarters in Philadelphia that burned down an
  entire city block: http://www.iacenter.org/philpris.htm

  
  WACO BOMB?: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacorom2.htm
  

"There are times when you cannot keep your job and
put alternative explanations for data on the table."
 Former FBI Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst

  
  WACO PROTEST: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/waco-1.htm
  



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***
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entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
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Re: [CTRL] Waco: Sniper's Nest Revealed

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Waco: Sniper's Nest Revealed
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:15 AM

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: Ian Goddard 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Waco: Sniper's Nest Revealed
Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 9:43 PM

At http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a389f17ad2057.htm

I wrote:

>I expect that the structure that appeared next to the gym
>on April 19 was a "portable" or make-shift sniper's nest.


I got feedback back from one of the Davidian's lawyers. It
appears that the most-accurate proposition was that it's a
makeshift, not portable, sniper's nest. Apparently the tank
knocked out the wall of the gym from the inside at that point
(the resulting hole in the gym wall is not visible on the FLIR)
and a sniper or snipers used the debris as a makeshift hide.

The majority of FLIR experts reviewing the tape conclude that
the thermal flashes at that point are gunshots directed at the
Mt Carmel Center. An interesting question is why they'd shoot
from such a close range? I observe that the trajectory of most
of the shots fired from that close-in position are toward the
tower. If there was a bomb planted on the floor of the second-
story of the tower, which was the roof of the concrete room,
there would be a risk that occupants might remove the planted
bomb before it exploded. If you wanted to shoot into that room
from long-range to kill anyone coming in, your bullets might
hit a bomb. On the other hand, if you fired from a close enough
angle, the trajectory of your bullet would come in at a steep
angle that could not inadvertently hit a bomb on the floor.
But then someone might be able to crawl in and get the bomb,
and how would shooters outside know when someone was entering
the room? Could they have placed a remote monitor in the room?
There does appear to be a radio transceiver by the blast hole
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a389a8c993193.htm that could
facilitate remote-control operations, such as bomb detonation
(the blast force of a shaped charge is directed into the target,
which results in minimal forces being directed away from the
target, hence objects could be found close to the blast hole).

Just thinking out loud, hoping to stimulate public inquiry...


WACO BOMB?: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacorom2.htm


  "There are times when you cannot keep your job and
  put alternative explanations for data on the table."
   Former FBI Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst




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***
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entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date
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 To Discuss Ideas:
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Forwarded for info and discussion from the New Paradigms Discussion List,
not necessarily endorsed by:
***
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Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the
entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date
Lists & E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, & resources.
 To Discuss Ideas:
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Re: [CTRL] Waco: Sniper's Nest Revealed

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: Ian Goddard 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Waco: Sniper's Nest Revealed
Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 9:43 PM

At http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a389f17ad2057.htm

I wrote:

>I expect that the structure that appeared next to the gym
>on April 19 was a "portable" or make-shift sniper's nest.


I got feedback back from one of the Davidian's lawyers. It
appears that the most-accurate proposition was that it's a
makeshift, not portable, sniper's nest. Apparently the tank
knocked out the wall of the gym from the inside at that point
(the resulting hole in the gym wall is not visible on the FLIR)
and a sniper or snipers used the debris as a makeshift hide.

The majority of FLIR experts reviewing the tape conclude that
the thermal flashes at that point are gunshots directed at the
Mt Carmel Center. An interesting question is why they'd shoot
from such a close range? I observe that the trajectory of most
of the shots fired from that close-in position are toward the
tower. If there was a bomb planted on the floor of the second-
story of the tower, which was the roof of the concrete room,
there would be a risk that occupants might remove the planted
bomb before it exploded. If you wanted to shoot into that room
from long-range to kill anyone coming in, your bullets might
hit a bomb. On the other hand, if you fired from a close enough
angle, the trajectory of your bullet would come in at a steep
angle that could not inadvertently hit a bomb on the floor.
But then someone might be able to crawl in and get the bomb,
and how would shooters outside know when someone was entering
the room? Could they have placed a remote monitor in the room?
There does appear to be a radio transceiver by the blast hole
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a389a8c993193.htm that could
facilitate remote-control operations, such as bomb detonation
(the blast force of a shaped charge is directed into the target,
which results in minimal forces being directed away from the
target, hence objects could be found close to the blast hole).

Just thinking out loud, hoping to stimulate public inquiry...


WACO BOMB?: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacorom2.htm


  "There are times when you cannot keep your job and
  put alternative explanations for data on the table."
   Former FBI Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst




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==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
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and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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Om

[CTRL] Waco Shrooms?

[ali andrew]

I have been following this talk and 
it is great! McKenna's "food of the gods" is a good referance book for 
any good preacher of the word.
 
my reason for writing is that I've 
been down here from Philadelphia for the last three years and have been 
unfortunately Shroomless  : (  I have searched 
through more cow shit than a little but no luck. my studies show that the Wac 
Indians used maskel beans. You would think being so close to the Holy land there 
would be plenty of Manna.
 
Question: what is the deal on the Shrooms in Waco 
(City of the Noble One)?
 
Andrew

-Original Message-From: 
Andy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Friday, February 04, 2000 2:54 PMSubject: Re: [CTRL] MANNA 
FROM HEAVEN
This is my first post to this list, so greetings 
everyone...I've been interested in Manna and psychedelics for a while now 
and I agree with the "shroom theory".  Soaking shrooms in 
honey for a long time will result in a stained blue and psychedelic 
honey...I liked the idea so much that I created www.bluehoney.org - This is my 
reply:
 
>>"Something falling from heaven is 
entirely different than something springing from the earth. The Israelites 
just couldn'thave been so stupid they could not tell that 
difference"--No one saw anything fall from the sky, 
the Manna appeared overnight with the morning dew (also they had no roots 
like other plants that they were familiar with).  Now, I wouldn't call 
anyone stupid but the Israelites did wander for 40 
years, you can't do that without going in a lot of circles. Besides...look 
at what these people did before they left Egypt...they were slaves, not 
gardeners. This is ignorance, not stupidity. How many Israelites could have 
had a mushroom experience before they escaped Egypt? None, hencethe name 
Manna - meaning "What is it?" - Whatever it was, it was important 
enough to preserve for future generations and keep in the Ark of the 
Covenant.>>"Shrooms in the desert!?! 
No way. Too dry. Need rain and cow pies. Trust me".--Exodus 
16-14 "And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of 
the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on 
the ground.".. Frost? Dew? Wilderness? Is this a desert?? Need 
grass, trees and moisture. Trust me.As for cows, well (to quote that 
web-page about Manna) "again referring to the Bible, it is clear that 
the children of Israel had journeyed to a land where there was dew in the 
morning. As a large, nomadic tribe, the Israelites brought a lot of cattle 
and sheep together in the area. That meant a great deal of manure. The 
change of climate from the arid lands of Egypt to the dewy climate of the 
wilderness created ideal conditions for the propagation and spread of 
psilocybe mushrooms in livestock 
dung.">the taste of it was like wafers 
made with honey(l6:31)...>>Wrong!>>After trying 
EVERY conceivable methos of eating those babies without gagging, the ONLY 
way we ever found that was tasteless(later in life the taste of freeze 
dried Kubensis didn't even really bother us that much any more), is to make 
a REAL ice cream shake out of them.  That is the ONLY way that we ever 
found that even the slightest taste of  them is not detectable...and we 
triedALL KINDS of things using honey in my dayto no 
avail!--Wrong!I have mushrooms that have been soaking in 
honey for many months (that's what blue honey is), you don't even need to 
eat the mushrooms, just the honey will do; but if you did you would not 
taste anything but sweet honey. Is there any other natural preservative 
other than honey?John 6-56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh 
my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.He is saying pretty clearly 
that the eating and drinking is physical. My body is flesh indeed, and My 
blood is drink indeed, and the added statement that when you eat, it is 
inside of you leaves little room for debate that this is a substance and not 
a phantom symbol alone. For those who choose to debate this I ask that they 
show me their substance because according to Jesus' words unless you eat and 
drink of "IT" you have no life in you. By the way, do I really 
need to mention that this is not some strange reference to Cannibalism? I 
sure hope not.John 6-31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as 
it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.John 6-32 Then 
Jesus said unto them, verily verily I say unto you, Moses gave you not that 
bread from heaven; but my father giveth you the true bread from 
heaven.John 6-34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us 
this bread.John 6-35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of 
life.John 6-41 The Jews then

Re: [CTRL] [Waco] DMN-Lee Hancock - FBI plan not followed, Davidian lawyers say

[ali andrew]

It is 
important to keep in mind that this whole trial business is a smoke screen. Most 
of the people were already dead at the time of the fire. This is what they do 
not want us to see even thought the evidence proves it. It is what David Koresh 
said would happen. You should consider this heavily!
 
Andrew

-Original Message-From: 
DjL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Thursday, February 03, 2000 5:12 PMSubject: [Waco] DMN-Lee 
Hancock - FBI plan not followed, Davidian lawyers 
sayFrom: "DjL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
http://dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/26059_WACO03.htmlFBI 
plan not followed, Davidian lawyers sayJudge told commanders' use of 
tanks makes U.S. culpable for deaths insiege02/03/2000By 
Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning NewsThe FBI's two lead Waco 
commanders violated a Washington-approved planbyordering tanks to 
begin demolishing the Branch Davidian compound in1993, andthus 
should be liable for the horrific tragedy that ensued, the sect'slawyers 
argued Wednesday.Their Wednesday plea in a Waco federal court lays 
out a detailed casefor howFBI commanders Jeffrey Jamar and Richard 
Rogers within hours divertedfromthe plan authorized by top FBI 
officials and approved by AttorneyGeneralJanet Reno. That written 
plan allowed for demolition of the sect'sembattledbuilding only 
after tear gas had been sprayed into it for 48 hours,but FBItanks 
began demolishing the rear of the building less than five 
hoursafterthe gassing began."The decisions made by 
Rogers and Jamar were unauthorized, outside thescopeof their 
authority, unjustified by the circumstances, and caused orcontributed to 
the deaths of countless innocent children and someadults,"the 
plaintiff's motion argued.The plaintiff's pleading came one day 
after the Justice Departmentarguedthat legal limits on lawsuits 
against federal agencies and officialsshouldprevent the Branch 
Davidians from putting the government on trial foritshandling of the 
1993 gassing operation, including its use of tanks.Thegovernment 
argued that federal law prohibits using lawsuits 
to"second-guess"the judgment calls of federal officials, 
even if those decisions havetragicresults.The motions from 
both sides come as Judge Smith prepares to make finaldecisions about the 
size and scope of the sect's wrongful-death case.He has set a trial 
for mid-May on three major questions: Did federalagentsuse excessive 
force in the raid that began the 1993 standoff, abotchedoperation 
that disintegrated into a gunbattle that left four agentsandseveral 
sect members dead? Did federal agents shoot at the 
BranchDavidiansand prevent their escape when the compound caught 
fire during theFBI's gasassault? And was the FBI negligent in 
failing to prepare for thethreat of afire and for refusing to let 
local firetrucks approach when a fire diderupt?More than 80 
Branch Davidians died in the fire, which began less thanan hourafter 
FBI tanks rolled deep into the building on April 19, 
1993.Governmentofficials have argued that the sect was solely to 
blame, noting thatgovernment arson investigators ruled that Branch 
Davidiansdeliberately setthe blaze.In his decision last July 
to allow the Branch Davidians' case to go totrial,Judge Smith 
dismissed Agent Jamar, Agent Rogers and most other federalofficials from 
the lawsuit.He left one defendant in the case: a hostage rescue team 
sniperaccused bythe sect of firing at the compound during the April 
19, 1993, tear-gasassault. The judge based that decision largely on the 
statement ofanotherFBI agent, who told investigators after the siege 
that he heard shotsfiredfrom the position where the sniper was 
assigned that day. The agenthas sincesaid he was misquoted, and 
other agents in the area have said that theonlygunfire they heard 
came from the sect.The sniper, FBI Agent Lon Horiuchi, has denied 
firing a shot. Earlierthisweek, lawyers for the agent asked the 
judge to dismiss him from thecase fora lack of 
evidence.Lawyers for the sect have conceded that the agent will 
probably bedismissed,despite recent revelations about evidence that 
could support thegunfireclaim. Texas Rangers issued a report last 
fall that described how adozenspent .308 shell casings had been 
found after the incident in thehouse whereAgent Horiuchi was 
stationed.The house had been used earlier by snipers from the Bureau 
of Alcohol,Tobacco and Firearms during the raid that began the standoff, 
andfederalofficials have argued that the shell casings came from ATF 
guns. Theofficeof special counsel John Danforth is performing 
forensic tests todeterminewhich agency's guns were used.The 
two FBI commanders were among the large number of 

Re: [CTRL] WACO BOMB Update

[ali andrew]

Title: Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum: Fire




   



 

Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum:FireCatalogue of 
Evidence Fireball over Mt. Carmel Center 
on April 19, 1993 (Time Magazine, May 3, 1993).  

 
Military experts say this explosive phenomena is characteristic of Special 
Ops demolitions, effected by detonating 55-gallon drums of jet fuel. The Justice 
Department Report makes no mention of this fireball (see section "The 
Fire," pgs. 295-304).  


"Fire is so efficient at erasing things, it is very popular as a means 
of hiding the evidence of murder . . ." 
--Douglas Ubelaker, Curator of Anthropology, Smithsonian Institute, top 
consultant to the FBI in Waco, quoted in Bones, A Forensic Detective's 
Casebook,pgs.  140-141. 
September 5, 1999--A magician focuses the attention of the audience by 
twirling the hat in his right hand.  His audience is so distracted by the 
hat, they do not notice his left hand, in plain sight, performing the magic 
trick. 
That is what is happening now in the "new 
revelations" about the inferno that engulfed the Mt.  Camel Center 
in Waco, Texas on April 19, 1993.  "Whatever you do, don't look at the 
fire!" says the magician.  "Look here instead, at the debate over 
pyrotechnic tear gas canisters!" 
We look.  "Outrageous," we say.  "Look, the FBI was 
only trying to get the Davidians to come out, but they used the wrong canisters 
and caused this huge house fire . . . "  And the magician gets 
away  with the trick, yet again. 
Ever since April 19, 1993, the US has presented the fire at the Mt. Carmel 
Center as one BIG house fire.  Various explanations for the fire were 
given.  Cover story Number One: The Davidians set their own house on 
fire.  Not everybody believed it. 
Then we heard cover stories 2.0 and 2.5, the Mrs. Murphy and cow 
explanations:  Tanks knocked over kerosene lamps inside Mt. Carmel, the 
kerosene spilled onto the hay, the hay caught fire and set the house on fire. 
That story did not sell too well, either.  There never was a 
satisfactory explanation of why the Davidians -- Bible students -- kept hay in 
their house.  Many members of the public smelled bull. 
All of these explanations, and now the current ones, are designed to deflect 
the public's attention from the obvious truth.  The Mt.  Carmel 
inferno was not a house fire.  It was started deliberately by the US 
military, the Special Operations Command, to cover its murders of the Branch 
Davidians.  The fire at the Mt.  Carmel Center was a Special 
Operations demolition fire, and it was fueled by petroleum. 
Let's have a look at the evidenceHere are some pictures of the ruins: 
US News and World Report, May 3, 1993: Aerial 
view of the Mt. Carmel ruins Chicago Tribune, 
April 21, 1993: Aerial view of the Mt. Carmel ruins Newsweek, May 3, 1993: Aerial view of the Mt. Carmel 
ruins 
Notice that we can not see even the skeleton of the house.  The fire 
lasted 40-45 minutes.  It burned with extraordinary intensity.  No 
beams.  No rafters.  Nada.  Nothing. 
This was no ordinary house fire. 
Now let's have a closer look at the Mt.  Carmel Center before the fire, 
and note its architectural features.  Take a viewpoint facing the front of 
the building.  Notice that the three story residential tower in the center 
of the structure; notice that immediately behind that tower and to the left 
there is empty space and a swimming pool.  To the right there is a 
gymnasium. 
US News/World Report, May 3, 1993: 
Model of Mt. Carmel on final day Chicago Tribune, 
April 21: Diagram of Mt. Carmel site before the fire Newsweek, May 3, 1993: Diagram of Mt. Carmel 
Center Treasury Report: Mt. Carmel 
before raid 
Now look at this picture of the Mt.  Carmel Center during the inferno, 
and notice that this empty space and swimming pool area immediately behind and 
to the left of the three story tower is aflame. 
Newsweek, May 17, 1993: Aerial view of the fire 
Newsweek, May 3, 1993: Ground level view of 
the fire Newsweek, May 3, 1993: Ground level 
view of the fire (later photo) Soldier of Fortune, 
July, 1993: Ground level view of the fire Time, May 3, 1993: Ground level view of the fire 
Time, May 3, 1993: Ground level view of the 
fire (reduced image of above)   Notice the height of those 
flames!  Such magic!  Surely only the most gifted magician could get 
empty space to burn like that! 
But, no, Josephine.  Swimming pools and bare ground don't burn unless 
someone applies a flammable agent. 
Now go through those photos again and look at the color of the smoke.  
Yes, the smoke--all of it -is pitch black.  Even the smoke coming from the 
burning, empty ground immediately behind and to the left of the three story 
tower .  . . 
Black smoke is characteristic of a petroleum fire.  Click on a page in 
oil-well fire fighter Red Adiar's web page: 
http://www.redadair.com/thriller.html 
"Kuwait was stripped and set on fire by the retreating Iraqi troops 
during the final days

[CTRL] WACO BOMB Update

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: Ian Goddard 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WACO BOMB Update
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 4:53 PM


   WACO-BOMB PAGE UPDATED:

   http://Ian.Goddard.net/wacorom2.htm
   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacorom2.htm

   60 Minutes, after having covered-up their positive
   findings on the Waco FLIR video in the past, [1]
   just presented expert analysis stating that the
   flashes seen on the FLIR are gun shots fired
   at the Davidian's home on the last day. [2]

   As the reality that the Federal Government tried
   to murder Davidians while leading the world to
   believe they were trying to save them slowly
   sinks in, the next step in The People's inquiry
   into Waco is to investigate and propagate knowledge
   of the bomb theory: http://Ian.Goddard.net/wacorom2.htm

   When I posted the Waco-bomb theory to the Internet
   I had no idea it would be a main feature of Mike
   McNulty's new documentary, now available here:
   http://waco-anewrevelation.com . McNulty was a
   producer of the Emmy-Award winning and Oscar-
   Award-nominated documentary "Waco: The Rules
   of Engagement" (http://www.waco93.com).

   You may recall that I became skeptical about the
   explosives damage to the concrete room (where
   dozens of woman & children died) being caused by
   the government after I leaned that the Davidians
   had purchased explosives material. However, the
   overwhelming feedback I've received from people
   with explosives expertise informs me that the
   Davidian's explosives materials are used to make
   "flash power," which makes good fireworks but does
   not otherwise posses the explosive power necessary
   to blast a two-foot-wide hole through thick steel-
   rebar-reinforced concrete. That is also the expert
   analysis presented on McNulty's new documentary.

   The updated Waco-bomb page covers those issues,
   and also includes the following quote by former
   Attorney General Ramsey Clark in a civil law
   suit filed against the Federal Government:

"At about noon [April 19, 1993] FBI agents on
foot entered the Church, and fired shots which
struck plaintiffs many of whom were dead, or
unconscious from gas inhalation. Several FBI
defendants proceeded to the second floor and
placed an explosive material on the top of the
concrete Church vault at the 2nd floor level...
at about 12:20 p.m. a huge explosion blasted
a hole several feet in diameter...[in] the
concrete ceiling of the Church vault, crushing,
cutting, burying and killing or injuring most
of the approximately 30 persons in the vault."

   WACO BOMB: http://Ian.Goddard.net/wacorom2.htm
   WACO BOMB: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/wacorom2.htm
   _
   [1] Scroll to: WHAT 60 MINUTES IS NOT TELLING YOU
   http://users.erols.com/igoddard/rebuttal.htm
   [2] 60 Minutes: What Really Happened at Waco
   (1/25/00) (You may need to copy & paste this URL)
   http://cbs.com/now/story/0,1597,153120-311,00.shtml


GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm





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***
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DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spr

[CTRL] Waco: A New Revelation - Reviewed

[lloyd]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

..

>From the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
Conspiracy Shopping Cart: http://a-albionic.com/shopping.htmlFrom: GAVUFO 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Waco: A New Revelation - Reviewed
Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 2:23 AM

Hello:

I've written a lengthy (4,688 words) review about Michael McNulty's recent
outstanding documentary, "Waco: A New Revelation." (110 minutes) I was so
incensed by the amount of evidence he has compiled proving government
malfeasence during the Waco incident I was compelled to write a detailed review
of it. I would like to inform as many people as possible about it's
availability. I do not know anyone associated with it's production nor do I
profit one red cent from it's sale. My review is below. It can also be accessed
at
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a388175d5194e.htm

 Waco: A New Revelation, Reviewed by Gavin Phillips [Free Republic]

Just passing the word along. Thanks. Gavin Phillips.




   "Waco: A New Revelation"
Reviewed by Gavin Phillips
Please distribute



"Waco: A New Revelation" (110 minutes) is Michael McNulty's follow-up
documentary to his previous academy award nominated documentary, "Waco: The
Rules of Engagement." I was fortunate enough to catch "Waco: The Rules of
Engagement"in it's very limited movie theater distribution. Although overlong
by at least half an hour in my opinion, the documentary was a devastating
indictment of the ATF/FBI handling of the 51 day siege at Mount Carmel, the
home of the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas.

Most Americans, myself included, paid little attention to the seemingly never
ending standoff between the Branch Davidians and federal agents. When the place
burned to the ground on April 19, 1993, I still wasn't paying attention. The
official version was that an insane religious cult, led by a sexual deviant and
stone cold killer, David Koresh, had "ambushed" ATF agents whilst they
attempted to serve a search warrant. During that initial shootout, four ATF
agents and six Branch Davidians were killed. Koresh and his crazy followers
brought it upon themselves, right? I couldn't be more wrong.

The official version of events was rammed down our throats day in and day out
by the mainstream media. Buzzwords were repeated ad-nauseum, Cult, Pedophile,
Compound, Religions that Kill, Mass Suicide, Jonestown, Sociopath. We were
being conditioned by the government via the jingoistic mainstream media into a
Pavlovian response to any mention of "The Wacko in Waco," that was of course
that he was the heir apparent to Charlie Manson. It is a lie, as is 99% of
everything else the government has told us about the events at Waco. It is a
prerequisite to justifying genocide to demonize the group targeted for
extinction. The Nazi's did it to the Jews. Our government did it to the Branch
Davidians in 1993.

Although my review is rather long, (4,688 words), I hope you to take the 15
minutes or so to educate yourself and others about incontrovertible proof that
federal agents were responsible for all the approximate 79/85 deaths of the
Branch Davidians during the 51 day siege. It is the most disturbing and
infuriating documentary I have seen in many, many years; wholesale government
slaughter proven beyond a doubt. What follows is my review of "Waco: A New
Revelation." Information not in the video is asterisked.

The Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the Seventh-Day Adventists. They moved
to Waco in the mid 1930s. They took up residence at Mount Carmel in the early
1960s. The Branch Davidians and their spiritual leader David Koresh (*since the
late 1980s), practiced a totally different kind of religion than Christians.
They had different marriage rules, and different property rights than most
Americans. They stayed for the most part inside Mount Carmel studying the bible
under the tutelage of David Koresh. They were different from most Americans,
but not hostile or unfriendly. In interviews during the documentary they come
across as very polite, reasonable and well mannered.

On February 18, 1993, the day of the raid, the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco
and Firearms) pulled up to the Mount Carmel residence and about 100 agents
surround the Branch Davidians home, several run up to the front door. Other
agents go to the back of the home and kill the Davidians' dogs. Dick Reavis,
author of "The Ashes of Waco," says, "...[the ATF were] Shouting Police, search
warrant lay down. According to them David was standing at the front door
unarmed,...Shut the door,...And the next thing the ATF knew it says, it was
receiving gunfire from inside of Mount Carmel. In particular from behind that
front door.”

What ensues is the longest shoot out in the history of law enforcement leaving
four

[CTRL] Waco FLIR. FBI says it is "Glints"

[Gavin Phillips]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Subj:[waco-group] WTH - FBI employees: Video shows 'glint' not gunfire
Date:   1/25/00 10:41:19 AM Central Standard Time
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Oh boy, we've got some real ace pilot here.  Blah-blah-blah.  Janice
~
http://www.accesswaco.com/auto/feed/news/local/2000/01/24/948775839.08003.1122
.0076.html

FBI employees: Video shows 'glint' not gunfire
By MARK ENGLAND Tribune-Herald staff writer

Although most admit never seeing as many multiple flashes before, FBI agents
and technicians are adamant that the flashes seen on an infrared video of
Mount Carmel on April 19, 1993, are "glint" and not gunfire, according to
depositions for the upcoming wrongful-death lawsuit filed against the
government by surviving Branch Davidians.

The Tribune-Herald reviewed the depositions of 20 FBI employees, including
technicians, pilots and Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) operators. None of
the FBI employees were members of the Hostage Rescue Team, the tactical unit
accused by some critics of firing shots at the Davidians on the final day of
the 51-day siege, which ended in a fire that led to the deaths of David
Koresh and 75 followers.

FBI employee No. 15 — the identities of the agents are sealed on the order of
U.S. Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. of Waco — testified during his deposition that
he reviewed at least 10 FLIR tapes looking for flashes similar to those on
the Waco FLIR tape.

He told plaintiffs' attorney Mike Caddell of Houston that he found examples
of flashes on other FLIR tapes.

"The one that sticks out in my mind is a surveillance that was being done on
a vehicle in the daytime," said the FBI employee, who was the FLIR operator
when Mount Carmel caught fire. "And you could see a flash off of the fender
and the hood of the car at one point in the orbit."

Caddell asked the FLIR operator if he had ever seen multiple flashes like
those present on the Mount Carmel FLIR tape. The FLIR operator maintained
circumstances are different every time the camera is used.

"It's different," the FLIR operator said. "Different circumstances, different
temperatures, different scenery. You are not looking at the same thing."

Asked if he had considered the possibility that some of the flashes on the
Waco FLIR tape were weapons fired by the Davidians, the FLIR operator said,
"I think it's glint."

Caddell asked why the FLIR tape doesn't show flashes on both sides of Mount
Carmel.

"You don't recall there being an unusual condition where the sun was blocked
from the front of Mount Carmel but shone on the back, do you?" Caddell asked.

After wrangling, which involved Justice Department attorneys, the FLIR
operator answered, "I still think it's glint."

One of the pilots of Night Stalker, the plane carrying the FLIR camera, also
told Caddell that he believes the flashes seen on the Mount Carmel FLIR tape
were caused by glint.

"There are certain things that the FLIR tape picks up that can't be
explained," said the pilot, a co-pilot when Night Stalker flew during the
morning of April 19, 1993. "I think it's often referred to as glint. It's an
unexplained phenomenon that appears on a FLIR tape primarily in the daytime."

Caddell showed the pilot a condensed version of the Mount Carmel FLIR tape
highlighting the flashes, according to the deposition. One involved a flash
seen to the left of a Combat Engineering Vehicle (CEV) on the back of the
compound.

"I would call that a glint," the pilot said.

"And how did we distinguish between a glint and something else?" Caddell
asked. "Is it a glint when it might have otherwise been gunfire from an FBI
agent?"

The pilot later explained his reasoning.

"In my opinion, I do not believe that there was an individual on that tank
firing a weapon," the pilot said. "Therefore, the fact the flash occurs is an
unexplained anomaly."

Caddell pointed out that Carlos Ghigliotti, an expert in thermal imaging and
videotape, told The Washington Post that he believes FBI agents fired shots
on April 19, 1993. Ghigliotti is one of the FLIR experts working for the
congressional committee investigating Mount Carmel.

However, FBI agent No. 7, who rode inside CEV2 on the final day of the siege,
was among the FBI employees not agreeing with Ghigliotti's conclusion.

"I have no idea what may or may not cause flashes on this video, but if you
are asking about the flashes that came from directly behind my CEV, I believe
I would be aware if there had been anything back there," the agent said. "And
I saw nothing but ground and junk."

Another FBI employee, a Night Stalker pilot, said the FLIR camera wasn't
designed to pick up small arms fire.

"The type of FLIR utilized, the collimation of the FLIR in relation to the
gunfire, distances involved, and other parameters would lead me to believe
this is not gunfire, based on what I know," said the pi

[CTRL] Waco: A New Revelation. My Review

[Gavin Phillips]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

   "Waco: A New Revelation"
Reviewed by Gavin Phillips
Please distribute



Waco: A New Revelation (110 minutes) is Michael McNulty's follow-up
documentary to his previous academy award nominated documentary, Waco: The
Rules of Engagement. I was fortunate enough to catch Waco: The Rules of
Engagement in it's very limited movie theater distribution. Although overlong
by at least half an hour in my opinion, the documentary was a devastating
indictment of the ATF/FBI handling of the 51 day siege at Mount Carmel, the
home of the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas.

Most Americans, myself included, paid little attention to the seemingly never
ending standoff between the Branch Davidians and federal agents. When the
place burned to the ground on April 19, 1993, I still wasn't paying
attention. The official version was that an insane religious cult, led by a
sexual deviant and stone cold killer, David Koresh, had "ambushed" ATF agents
whilst they attempted to serve a search warrant. During that initial
shootout, four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians were killed. Koresh and his
crazy followers brought it upon themselves, right? I couldn't be more wrong.

The official version of events was rammed down our throats day in and day out
by the mainstream media. Buzzwords were repeated ad-nauseum, Cult, Pedophile,
Compound, Religions that Kill, Mass Suicide, Jonestown, Sociopath. We were
being conditioned by the government via the jingoistic mainstream media into
a Pavlovian response to any mention of "The Wacko in Waco," that was of
course that he was the heir apparent to Charlie Manson. It is a lie, as is
99% of everything else the government has told us about the events at Waco.
It is a prerequisite to justifying genocide to demonize the group targeted
for extinction. The Nazi's did it to the Jews. Our government did it to the
Branch Davidians in 1993.

Although my review is rather long, (4,688 words), I hope you to take the 15
minutes or so to educate yourself and others about incontrovertible proof
that federal agents were responsible for all the approximate 79/85 deaths of
the Branch Davidians during the 51 day siege. It is the most disturbing and
infuriating documentary I have seen in many, many years; wholesale government
slaughter proven beyond a doubt. What follows is my review of Waco: A New
Revelation. Information not in the video is asterisked.

The Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the Seventh-Day Adventists. They
moved to Waco in the mid 1930s. They took up residence at Mount Carmel in the
early 1960s. The Branch Davidians and their spiritual leader David Koresh
(*since the late 1980s), practiced a totally different kind of religion than
Christians. They had different marriage rules, and different property rights
than most Americans. They stayed for the most part inside Mount Carmel
studying the bible under the tutelage of David Koresh. They were different
from most Americans, but not hostile or unfriendly. In interviews during the
documentary they come across as very polite, reasonable and well mannered.

On February 18, 1993, the day of the raid, the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol
Tobacco and Firearms) pulled up to the Mount Carmel residence and about 100
agents surround the Branch Davidians home, several run up to the front door.
Other agents go to the back of the home and kill the Davidians' dogs. Dick
Reavis, author of The Ashes of Waco, says, "...[the ATF were] Shouting
Police, search warrant lay down. According to them David was standing at the
front door unarmed,...Shut the door,...And the next thing the ATF knew it
says, it was receiving gunfire from inside of Mount Carmel. In particular
from behind that front door.”

What ensues is the longest shoot out in the history of law enforcement
leaving four dead ATF agents and six dead Branch Davidians. The question has
always been, who shot first? Koresh and the Branch Davidians say that the
ATF, totally unprovoked, shot through the door killing 60 year old Perry
Jones and injuring David Koresh. The ATF had several video cameras taping the
events at the front door.

Dr. Philip Arnold says,"...If you don’t believe me, look at the video tape, I
know you have that tape, he (Koresh) says, I saw you making it across the
road.”

Investigator (Attorney) David Hardy says,“...According to the agency there
were three or four video cameras pointed at the front door that could tell
you everything that happened to the front door of that building that day;
they claim they can’t find a single one of them. Every one of those video
tapes vanished.”

In addition to the missing video footage, the on scene activity log (*and the
front door, mentioned in Waco: The Rules of Engagement) also disappeared.  In
the initial raid you see ATF agents climbing onto the roof and going through
a

Re: [CTRL] Waco: Govt Set Fire

[lloyd]

 -Caveat Lector-

..

Forwarded from the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]:
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Waco: Govt Set Fire
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:06 PM

Last week at http://www.dallasnews.com/specials/waco/:

   U.S. switches course, agrees to Waco test

   The Justice Department has reversed course and agreed to a test that
   could help determine whether federal personnel shot at the Branch Davidian
   compound at the end of the deadly 1993 standoff, according to a Wednesday
   letter detailing the agreement.
   [...]
   The agreement capped three weeks of negotiations with senior Justice
   Department and FBI officials, and it came after the special counsel office
   learned that the exact infrared camera needed for the test still exists
   and could be borrowed from another country, the letter to U.S. District
   Judge Walter Smith indicated.

   Mr. Dowd said all sides in the case hope to complete the infrared field
   tests by mid-March to allow at least two months before the start of a
   wrongful-death trial against the federal government in Waco.

This is good news and hopefully will go a long way towards shedding
light on what actually happened on that day.

Hal
Forwarded for info and discussion from the New Paradigms Discussion List,
not necessarily endorsed by:
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

[CTRL] WACO Remarks By NEW ATF Director Bradley A. Buckles

[BARD]

 -Caveat Lector-

.FAR AND WIDE!
Note:  He is on C-SPAN 2 while this Post is being sent.
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/waco4.html
Many excellent images.

Brothers and Sisters, This is one GREAT web site.
Bard

Remarks By Deputy Director Bradley A. Buckles
  ATF Memorial
Service
  National Police
Week
 May 14, 1997
  "The very nature of our enforcement mission has historically brought
us face to face with the Nations most violent criminals. It is,
therefore, not surprising that the
   number of ATF agents who have lost their lives in the performance of
their duties – which numbers 182 -- is among the highest in Federal law
enforcement."

   Is it no WONDER? Sounds like ATF is
its own worst violent criminal.
   How many of the deaths are attributed to
training exercises, lack of communication,
faulty equipment, INCOMPETENT Commanders, no
written raid plan or specific instructions,
and FRIENDLY FIRE!?

   Sometime around noon, Buford was transported to Hillcrest Baptist
Medical Center, where Pat Muhl was the nursing supervisor on duty. "The
first person we
   received, LeBleu, was dead," said Muhl, a nurse for 26 years. "We
were all sad, but we did not have time to be sad for long because others
were coming in."

 Two other agents were dead on arrival, four
went to surgery and six others were treated, said Muhl.
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/waco4.html
---
Branch Davidian Victims:
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/memorial.html

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] Waco: A New Revelation

[Gavin Phillips]

 -Caveat Lector-

 http://www.abysmal.com/patriot/">WACO: The Patriot Products Home
Page

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om