Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

From: "Steve Wingate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Maybe some of the protesters could encourage his father to defect along
> with his family to the US. (Naturally the 'Justice Department' will not
> recognize this. If it will help I will risk my life to keep Janet (Waco Justice)
> Reno from carrying out the order to deport Elian to communist Cuba to be
> indoctronated as a entity of the State of Castro.

Interesting, that if this case involved U.S. citizens, you'd be crying long and loud 
for the father's rights.


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[William Shannon]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

In a message dated 4/7/00 7:31:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Interesting, that if this case involved U.S. citizens, you'd be crying
long and loud for the father's rights. >>

Good call June!
This is all about personal animosity towards Castro...these thugs in Miami,
surrounding the house and threatening traffic blockades, don't give a whit
about the kid...they want to "stick it to" Castro...that's all.
And after seeing the way these folks act, very unruly, I can almost
understand Castro's methods...he has no choice 

Peace,
And send Elian HOME!
Bill.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

From: "William Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> << Interesting, that if this case involved U.S. citizens, you'd be crying
> long and loud for the father's rights. >>
>
> Good call June!
> This is all about personal animosity towards Castro...these thugs in Miami,
> surrounding the house and threatening traffic blockades, don't give a whit
> about the kid...they want to "stick it to" Castro...that's all.
> And after seeing the way these folks act, very unruly, I can almost
> understand Castro's methods...he has no choice 

Perhaps.  I've just noticed a preponderance of large, obviously professionally printed 
signs amongst the Miami protestors.  One, a
young man in his late 20s or early 30s was shown on TV yesterday saying "I've been 
here for 4 days and nights, and I'll stay here
forever..."..blah, blah, blah...

Makes me wonder who's footing the bill for the expensive signs, and enabling an 
able-bodied young man to do nothing else but loiter
on public property (a crime in most municipalities, but seemingly not in Miami) during 
the work week...


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Theodor Parada, MD]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

June wrote:
> Makes me wonder who's footing the bill for the expensive signs, and enabling an 
>able-bodied young man to do nothing else but loiter
> on public property (a crime in most municipalities, but seemingly not in Miami) 
>during the work week...
>
>
> June
On that note I'd like to know who's paying that lawyer Craig!!! It
seems doubtful that Elian's father is independantly wealthy!!! This
lawyer Craig is a Klintoon lackey!!!

=
Theodor S.Parada, MD
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP Key ID 0x537C4815

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot
survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for
he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst
those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the
alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor
appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he
wears their face and their garments, he appeals to the baseness that lies
deep in the heart's of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works
secretly and unknownest in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he
infects the body politic, so that, it, can no longer resist. A murderer is
less to fear. The traitor is the plague."
Marcus Tullius Cicero 42 BC



http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

From: "Theodor Parada, MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Makes me wonder who's footing the bill for the expensive signs, and enabling an 
>able-bodied young man to
>> do nothing else but loiter on public property (a crime in most municipalities, but 
>seemingly not in
>> Miami) during the work week...
>
> On that note I'd like to know who's paying that lawyer Craig!!! It
> seems doubtful that Elian's father is independantly wealthy!!! This
> lawyer Craig is a Klintoon lackey!!!

Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Doesn't really matter.  Senor Gonzalez has the right to legal 
representation, and perhaps Craig is looking
to make a name for himself.

But he's only one person.  Who's footing the bill for the hundreds of people on 
permanent campout outside the Miami home where Elian
is staying?


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Nurev Ind Research]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

William Shannon wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
>  -Cui Bono?-
>
> In a message dated 4/7/00 7:31:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << Interesting, that if this case involved U.S. citizens, you'd be crying
> long and loud for the father's rights. >>
>
> Good call June!
> This is all about personal animosity towards Castro...these thugs in Miami,
> surrounding the house and threatening traffic blockades, don't give a whit
> about the kid...they want to "stick it to" Castro...that's all.
> And after seeing the way these folks act, very unruly, I can almost
> understand Castro's methods...he has no choice 
>
> Peace,
> And send Elian HOME!
> Bill.

I think we should send the Miami Cubans back where they came from.

I'm sick of them and their fascist bullshit.

These bastards need to learn that democracy and anti communism are
not the same thing.

They now live in a democratic country where the majority AND the laws
are against them.

If they can't deal with that I would be willing to donate some money
for rafts, and point them due south where they would get the wellcome
they deserve back in the old country.

Boycott Miami until they leave.

Joshua2

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[William Shannon]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

In a message dated 4/8/00 9:35:12 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

<< On that note I'd like to know who's paying that lawyer Craig!!! >>

The Methodist Church/National Council of Churches...

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Theodor Parada, MD]

-Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
 -Cui Bono?-

Joshua2 wrote:
> They now live in a democratic country where the majority AND the laws
> are against them.

> Joshua2

Thank the lord that we live in a Republic which guarantees minority
rights and not democratic mob rule.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Tara]

No. This is about a little boy, whose mother and stepdad died to bring him
to the States and save him from a life in Cuba. If you guys don't want him,
I'd support him coming to Canada. I actually watch with disgust the attempts
to send this poor child back there, by a supposedly left of center American
government. Showing their true hateful agenda in this one, huh. Been killing
babies for so many years that hurting kids just seems to be coming on
naturally.

And real compassionate Joshua. Being on the right doesn't mean being cruel.
Thank God I'm not an atheist

Tara


Bill Shannon wrote:
This is all about personal animosity towards Castro...these thugs in Miami,
surrounding the house and threatening traffic blockades, don't give a whit
about the kid...they want to "stick it to" Castro...that's all.
And after seeing the way these folks act, very unruly, I can almost
understand Castro's methods...he has no choice 

Joshua 2 wrote:
I think we should send the Miami Cubans back where they came from.
I'm sick of them and their fascist bullshit.
These bastards need to learn that democracy and anti communism are
not the same thing.
They now live in a democratic country where the majority AND the laws
are against them.
If they can't deal with that I would be willing to donate some money
for rafts, and point them due south where they would get the wellcome
they deserve back in the old country.
Boycott Miami until they leave.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[William Shannon]

In a message dated 4/8/00 7:04:52 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

<< No. This is about a little boy, whose mother and stepdad died to bring him
 to the States and save him from a life in Cuba >>

And a now motherless child with a living dad, a dad who wants his son with
him.
That really is all that matters...he goes back!

<>

It's not that "we" don't want him, it's that his dad DOES want him...
And I watch with disgust the mob scene in Miami, a Faubus/Wallace wannabe
mayor, and a ton of Miami Cubans with no regard for this country's laws...
Could you imagine being the neighbors of this family...trying to relax after
a tough day and coming home to thousands of sweaty protestors in your yard!
What little regard for others!

Bill.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Tara]

I understand your points and cannot disagree with most. Very well put,
actually.

But I also cannot agree that this ionly about his dad. I can't believe that
Casto and his thugs aren't behind the father's attempts to take this child
back to Cuba. People have talked about the present pope on this list. Tha
day I came to see his true place in the scheme of things was the day I saw
him hanging out with Castro. I think I lost any respect I may have had for
him when I saw him kiss that murderous bastard's hand.

I can't believe that deep down this boy's dad was not thrilled to see that
his son had got to America, and that he would not himself defect if Castro
were not in some way intimidating him to do this, and then to return. I was
surprised to see that his baby was not kept in Cuba. But I'm sure that
someone he loves sits with their life in jeopardy if Elian's father doesn't
do what Castro tells him to do.

I remember when Castro had that plane of civilians shot out of the sky and
the American government did nothing! Oh, right... They don't produce oil in
Cuba and Clinton is partial to Cuban cigars. No boycott there. And no
support for Elian.

Clinton's a wimp, who won't do anything to help this kid, but then the
Canadian government is no better. Except Prime Minister Chretien prefers
golfing and travel to sexual promiscuity.

Tara


-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of William Shannon
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 8:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect


In a message dated 4/8/00 7:04:52 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

<< No. This is about a little boy, whose mother and stepdad died to bring
him
 to the States and save him from a life in Cuba >>

And a now motherless child with a living dad, a dad who wants his son with
him.
That really is all that matters...he goes back!

<>

It's not that "we" don't want him, it's that his dad DOES want him...
And I watch with disgust the mob scene in Miami, a Faubus/Wallace wannabe
mayor, and a ton of Miami Cubans with no regard for this country's laws...
Could you imagine being the neighbors of this family...trying to relax after
a tough day and coming home to thousands of sweaty protestors in your yard!
What little regard for others!

Bill.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Bob Stokes]

In a message dated 00-04-08 20:04:52 EDT, you write:

<< Joshua 2 wrote:
 I think we should send the Miami Cubans back where they came from.
 I'm sick of them and their fascist bullshit.>>

This doesn't sound very liberal.

 <>

Democracy = Communism

 <>

Error ... WE live in a Republic.   How can you prove the majoroty and the
laws are against them?

<< If they can't deal with that I would be willing to donate some money
 for rafts, and point them due south where they would get the wellcome
 they deserve back in the old country.
 Boycott Miami until they leave. >>

Seems to me the same offer was made to send slaves back to Africa, is that
your politics?  Do you think ex-Cubans have no right to be here?  Do you
support Castro?  Are you a Communist?  And, why are you afraid to use your
real name?

Regards,
Bob Stokes

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[nessie]

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
>
>But I also cannot agree that this ionly about his dad.



It's not only about this family and it's not only about Cuba. There are,
according to ABC news, over two hundred American children currently
involved in similar custudy disputes in foriegn countries. If America
doesn't treat  the Gonzales matter fairly and return Elian  it loses the
moral high ground in those cases and those American children stand a much
lower chance of making it home.

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Theodor Parada, MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Joshua2 wrote:
>> They now live in a democratic country where the majority AND the laws
>> are against them.
>
> Thank the lord that we live in a Republic which guarantees minority
> rights and not democratic mob rule.

So who is the 'democratic mob' in this case?  The Miami Cuban population?  Or the rest 
of the U.S. citizenry that by and large
disagree with them?


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "William Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> It's not that "we" don't want him, it's that his dad DOES want him...
> And I watch with disgust the mob scene in Miami, a Faubus/Wallace wannabe
> mayor, and a ton of Miami Cubans with no regard for this country's laws...
> Could you imagine being the neighbors of this family...trying to relax after
> a tough day and coming home to thousands of sweaty protestors in your yard!

Not to mention the Cuban truckers' 'convoy' they periodically form, slowly driving 
around the block, blasting their horns...

If the case was reversed, if the kid's mother died while trying to defect TO Cuba, and 
the kid's father was back here in the States,
you know these same people would be up in arms crying for the father's right to have 
custody of his own son.

These Miami Cubans are hypocrites.  They don't really care for Elian's welfare, they 
just care for the platform he provides for them
to ram their cause down real Americans' throats...


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Bob Stokes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Error ... WE live in a Republic.   How can you prove the majoroty and the
> laws are against them?

Yes, we do live in a Republic, where a mob like the Cubans encamped outside the home 
where Elian Gonzalez is staying have no right
to ram their ideology down the throats of others...

How can we 'prove' that the majority and the laws are against them?  Proving the laws 
is simple.

I'd hazard a guess that if you and I decided to loiter on any street in Miami, we'd 
soon have cops telling us to move along.  If we
didn't, we'd find ourselves arrested.

For some reason this simple anti-loitering statute is NOT being applied in this case.

Any state in the union would recognize a biological father's right to have custody of 
his own son, over the claims of a maternal
grand-uncle, unless it could be proven that for some reason the father was an unfit 
parent.  Far from proving that, the Miami
relatives have actually bolstered the claim that the father was fit, by publicly 
questioning for months why the father didn't come
see his son in Miami -- if they considered him unfit, why suggest he should come?

As for what the majority of the U.S. citizenry thinks about this case, almost everyone 
outside of the Cuban community says the kid
should be returned to his father, irregardless if the father asks for political 
sanctuary here, are returns with Elian to Cuba.


> Seems to me the same offer was made to send slaves back to Africa, is that
> your politics?  Do you think ex-Cubans have no right to be here?

They have the same rights as all citizens, no less, but certainly no more.  One has to 
wonder why the Cuban mob parked in permanent
encampment outside the home where Elian is staying are being given special treatment.  
One wonders why this Cuban child should get
any more special treatment from the INS and the Justice Department than a child 
escaping from Haiti.


> Do you
> support Castro?  Are you a Communist?  And, why are you afraid to use your
> real name?

Speaking only for myself, it is quite common to use a nickname on the Internet, in 
fact it is more common than not.  In my case I
use the nickname, and only sign with my first name, to avoid stalking.

As for my politics, my postings to this list over the years should easily answer that 
question.

It is not a matter of whether one is Communist or not, or whether one supports Castro 
or not.  It is a matter of upholding U.S.
law -- the kid was part of an operation to enter the U.S. illegally, after all.  And 
he DOES have a living parent, who is fit to
care for him.  If the father lived in Georgia, there would be no discussion.  The only 
reason you and your ilk give for denying this
father his right to take custody of his own son is because you don't like the country 
he comes from.

If this was a case involving a mother escaping Iraq with her child, and the father 
back in Iraq wanting to take custody of his child
after the mother's death, I would still support the father's right to raise his own 
child, even though I have Saddam Hussein and his
politics.


June

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Nurev Ind Research]

"Theodor Parada, MD" wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-   http://www.ctrl.org/">
>  -Cui Bono?-
>
> Joshua2 wrote:
> > They now live in a democratic country where the majority AND the laws
> > are against them.
>
> > Joshua2
>
> Thank the lord that we live in a Republic which guarantees minority
> rights and not democratic mob rule.
>

What are you talking about? What the elites want they usually get. Only
mass disapproval stops them. But when the elites have the approval of
over 70% of the public, you can bet your ass that it's going to happen.

By the way, you don't live in a republic. You live in a Plutocracy.

Look it up.

Joshua2

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Bob Stokes]

In a message dated 00-04-09 12:16:17 EDT, June writes:

<< Yes, we do live in a Republic, where a mob like the Cubans encamped
outside the home where Elian Gonzalez is staying have no right
 to ram their ideology down the throats of others...>>

Then you are saying that it is OK for those of your ilk to ram your political
agenda down the throats of others?

<< How can we 'prove' that the majority and the laws are against them?
Proving the laws is simple.>>

If it is so simple, how come no one has stated what that laws is?

<< I'd hazard a guess that if you and I decided to loiter on any street in
Miami, we'd soon have cops telling us to move along.  If we
 didn't, we'd find ourselves arrested.

 For some reason this simple anti-loitering statute is NOT being applied in
this case.>>

I'm sure you're right about that, maybe not arrested, but asked to move
along, then if we didn't, we probably would be arrested.

<< Any state in the union would recognize a biological father's right to have
custody of his own son, over the claims of a maternal
 grand-uncle, unless it could be proven that for some reason the father was
an unfit parent.>>

This should be international law, what does that say?  Maybe the fact that
his Mother died trying to get him out of a Communist country says something.
People died trying to get over the Belin Wall also, but I've never heard of
anyone who died trying to get out of a non-communist country.

 

<< As for what the majority of the U.S. citizenry thinks about this case,
almost everyone outside of the Cuban community says the kid
 should be returned to his father, irregardless if the father asks for
political sanctuary here, are returns with Elian to Cuba.>>

What I hear around this neck of the woods (Colorado) is that the Mother was
trying to give her son a better life here in the US.  Is her death for
nothing?


 <<> Seems to me the same offer was made to send slaves back to Africa, is
that
 > your politics?  Do you think ex-Cubans have no right to be here?

 They have the same rights as all citizens, no less, but certainly no more.
One has to wonder why the Cuban mob parked in permanent
 encampment outside the home where Elian is staying are being given special
treatment.  One wonders why this Cuban child should get
 any more special treatment from the INS and the Justice Department than a
child escaping from Haiti.>>

The last statement makes me wonder what is happening while people are paying
attention to this "pony show" that is going on, what are the
elites/government doing behind the scenes now that they have a good smoke
screen?


 <>

I can understand that, there are many perverts in this world and I think the
US has more than our share, but why would a man hide his identity?  I also
use my nickname, Bob rather than the presumptuous Robert.

 <>

I believe this is a matter of international law since he is not a US citizen.
 Are you saying that if a Mother scaled the Berlin Wall and died in the
process of escaping East Germany with her child, that you would turn the
child over to the Communists in East Germany, I sincerely doubt that was ever
done.

<< If this was a case involving a mother escaping Iraq with her child, and
the father back in Iraq wanting to take custody of his child
 after the mother's death, I would still support the father's right to raise
his own child, even though I have Saddam Hussein and his
 politics.  >>

I may have thought that way until I came to know a Kurd from Iraq.  He was in
the Iraq military and defected as soon as he could, he is now happy to live
in the US.

Regards,
Bob Stokes

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Bob Stokes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> << Yes, we do live in a Republic, where a mob like the Cubans encamped
> outside the home where Elian Gonzalez is staying have no right
>  to ram their ideology down the throats of others...>>
>
> Then you are saying that it is OK for those of your ilk to ram your political
> agenda down the throats of others?

No, I'm saying NO mob, no matter what their political leanings, have the right to ram 
their political ideology down the throats of
others.

And just whom is my 'ilk', Bob?  ;-)


> << How can we 'prove' that the majority and the laws are against them?
> Proving the laws is simple.>>
>
> If it is so simple, how come no one has stated what that laws is?

Let's start with the anti-loitering laws in Miami...


> << I'd hazard a guess that if you and I decided to loiter on any street in
> Miami, we'd soon have cops telling us to move along.  If we
>  didn't, we'd find ourselves arrested.
>
>  For some reason this simple anti-loitering statute is NOT being applied in
> this case.>>
>
> I'm sure you're right about that, maybe not arrested, but asked to move
> along, then if we didn't, we probably would be arrested.

That is exactly what I said.


> << Any state in the union would recognize a biological father's right to have
> custody of his own son, over the claims of a maternal
>  grand-uncle, unless it could be proven that for some reason the father was
> an unfit parent.>>
>
> This should be international law, what does that say?

I don't know what 'international law' says, nor what international governing body you 
are going by.

_I_ go by the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the laws of the individual 
states of the Union.


> Maybe the fact that
> his Mother died trying to get him out of a Communist country says something.

It says nothing.  If you bend the law when it's someone escaping from a country you 
don't like, then how can you uphold the law when
it's someone escaping from a country who's an ally, or perhaps escaping from your own 
country.

If the tables were turned, and this kid's mother died as she was trying to escape the 
U.S. and enter Cuba, what would your argument
be if relatives in Havana claimed to have a better right to have custody of the kid 
than the father back in the U.S.?  What if a
mother who brought her child to visit relatives in Iraq suddenly died, and the Iraqi 
relatives took custody of the child, and
claimed they had a superior claim to custody?  Would you argue as vehemently for THEIR 
right to custody over the custody of the
American father back in the States?

And if we decide that Elian Gonzalez is deserving of political asylum, why then are we 
turning away thousands of Haitians, many of
whom are also children, who are also seeking political asylum?


> What I hear around this neck of the woods (Colorado) is that the Mother was
> trying to give her son a better life here in the US.  Is her death for
> nothing?

In my neck of the woods, coworkers and people talking about it while waiting in line 
at the store all say the father should have
custody.

We have no idea what was in the mother's mind; according to her own mother, she had a 
good life in Cuba, and according to her mother
was not unhappy and was not political.  Her mother has been quoted as saying she 
suspects the new husband was behind the decision to
leave Cuba, and she believes her daughter was pressured into going.  Hardly the 
description of someone seeking political asylum.


>>  They have the same rights as all citizens, no less, but certainly no more.
>> One has to wonder why the Cuban mob parked in permanent
>>  encampment outside the home where Elian is staying are being given special
>> treatment.  One wonders why this Cuban child should get
>>  any more special treatment from the INS and the Justice Department than a
>> child escaping from Haiti.>>
>
> The last statement makes me wonder what is happening while people are paying
> attention to this "pony show" that is going on, what are the
> elites/government doing behind the scenes now that they have a good smoke
> screen?

I'm not so sure it's government elites we should be looking for, but other 'elites'


>  < Internet, in fact it is more common than not.  In my case I
>  use the nickname, and only sign with my first name, to avoid stalking.>>
>
> I can understand that, there are many perverts in this world and I think the
> US has more than our share, but why would a man hide his identity?

A man can be stalked as easily as a woman can be...


> I believe this is a matter of international law since he is not a US citizen.

Sure it's a case of U.S. law.  It is applied every day to illegal immigrants from 
countries other than Cuba.  It is applied to
Haitians and Mexicans.

There is no reason for 'international law' to become involved.  It is solely the 
province of U.S. immigration law.

And since when did 'international law' take precedence over the Constitution of the 
United 

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[nessie]

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
>
>I've never heard of

>anyone who died trying to get out of a non-communist country.

Have you forgotten Nazi Germany?

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Bob Stokes]

<< [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
 >
 >I've never heard of

 >anyone who died trying to get out of a non-communist country.>>

nessie writes:

 <>

Thanks for seeing the obvious.  The nazi's were, and still are a threat,
probably a bigger threat than most realize.  The worst part about the nazi
threat is that we help them, our government that is.  Maybe a bigger threat
to us is our own government.

Regards,
Bob Stokes

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Bob Stokes]

In a message dated 00-04-10 08:25:43 EDT, June writes:

<< No, I'm saying NO mob, no matter what their political leanings, have the
right to ram their political ideology down the throats of
 others.

 And just whom is my 'ilk', Bob?  ;-)>>

Unfortunately many "mobs" have rammed their political ideology down our
throats, including the rich, the Brits, the socialists, the facists, nazis,
government, corporations, the list is endless and there seems to be little we
can do about it, even other countries such as Red China can buy our
representatives.

I was wondering just who are people of my "ilk" as well, since you mentioned
that in a reply ô¿~

 <>

If you were mayor, I'm certain loitering would not be permitted.


<< I don't know what 'international law' says, nor what international
governing body you are going by.

 _I_ go by the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the laws of the
individual states of the Union.>>

Since this has been blown up to a case of two sovereign nations arguing about
a child, I would think that some sort of international body (UN?) 
may be able to solve this problem.  I wish our government would play by the
rules and govern by the Constitution, but when someone like Clinton says "The
Constitution is what I say it is" then we have become lawless.


<< > Maybe the fact that
 > his Mother died trying to get him out of a Communist country says
something.

 It says nothing.  If you bend the law when it's someone escaping from a
country you don't like, then how can you uphold the law when
 it's someone escaping from a country who's an ally, or perhaps escaping from
your own country.

 If the tables were turned, and this kid's mother died as she was trying to
escape the U.S. and enter Cuba, what would your argument
 be if relatives in Havana claimed to have a better right to have custody of
the kid than the father back in the U.S.?  What if a
 mother who brought her child to visit relatives in Iraq suddenly died, and
the Iraqi relatives took custody of the child, and
 claimed they had a superior claim to custody?  Would you argue as vehemently
for THEIR right to custody over the custody of the
 American father back in the States?

 And if we decide that Elian Gonzalez is deserving of political asylum, why
then are we turning away thousands of Haitians, many of
 whom are also children, who are also seeking political asylum?>>

Very good points.  I've never looked at this situation that way, but it does
make sense to me.

 <>

I didn't hear this, but I wonder if her Mother was pressured into saying
that.  I have no trust of Castro.  I still remember the Cuban Missle Crisis
when I was 11 years old and living in Houston, which was a probable target of
those missles.

 <>

Could you be more specific, speculate a little.

 <>

Anyone who knew me, wouldn't stalk me ... they would know I have a 12 gauge.
I couldn't imagine being stalked by a woman.



<< Sure it's a case of U.S. law.  It is applied every day to illegal
immigrants from countries other than Cuba.  It is applied to
 Haitians and Mexicans.

 There is no reason for 'international law' to become involved.  It is solely
the province of U.S. immigration law.

 And since when did 'international law' take precedence over the Constitution
of the United States, and the laws of the sovereign states of the Union?>>

You have again made a very valid point when you mention the immigration laws.
 You are absolutely right about that, and I'm wrong.

Unfortunately many of our freedoms are in jeopardy by treaties with the UN.
Treaties are the only "laws" that can take precedence over the Constitution.
Clinton has been pressing treaties having to do with UN environmental issues.
 (Parks and Rivers)

Regards,
Bob Stokes

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTE

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Bob Stokes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>was not unhappy and was not political.  Her mother has been quoted as
> >saying she suspects the new husband was behind the decision to
>leave Cuba, and she believes her daughter was pressured into going.
> >Hardly the description of someone seeking political asylum.>>
>
>I didn't hear this, but I wonder if her Mother was pressured into >saying
>that.

I'm sure there was at least subliminal pressure, if not overt pressure.  The
mother isn't going to come right out and say her
daughter hated Castro, is she?

But there was something in her account that rang true...she really seems to
feel her daughter was apolitical, and was happy in her
job.  So if the daughter, Elian's mother, really was apolitical, then one
does have to ask what prompted her to get on that boat?


>I have no trust of Castro.  I still remember the Cuban Missle Crisis
>when I was 11 years old and living in Houston, which was a probable >target
>of those missles.

As was the NYC metro area where I live...and I well remember the 'duck and
cover' A-bomb drills we were put thru in school, because my hometown, being
the site of two major military contractors, was considered a prime target,
too.

Do I 'trust' Castro?  No.  But I don't trust most of our own politicians,
either.

But that matters not a whit in this case.  What matters is returning a child
to his father, irregardless of the politician we don't trust who's in
charge.


>other 'elites'>>
>
>Could you be more specific, speculate a little.

Cui bono?


>  <>
>
>Anyone who knew me, wouldn't stalk me ... they would know I have a >12
>gauge.  I couldn't imagine being stalked by a woman.

Your 12-gauge would be worthless against a cyberstalker, someone who you
probably don't even have the correct name for, let alone
know where they live...


><< Sure it's a case of U.S. law.  It is applied every day to illegal
>immigrants from countries other than Cuba.  It is applied to
>  Haitians and Mexicans.
>
>  There is no reason for 'international law' to become involved.  It >is
>solely the province of U.S. immigration law.
>
>  And since when did 'international law' take precedence over the
> >Constitution of the United States, and the laws of the sovereign >states
>of the Union?>>
>
>You have again made a very valid point when you mention the >immigration
>laws.
>  You are absolutely right about that, and I'm wrong.

FYI, listening to the Rivera show on CNBC as I type this, lawyer Gerry
Spence just said that international law states that the child
should be given back to the father...


June




__
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[uaicvtmb]

Oh. Is That A Fact Really? June "Fonda".
Oh, Lacky of Marxist Propaganda?

International Law in Reference to
Picking Up someone from a Sinking
Refugee Vessal - by Our Coast Guard
within our Shore - Doesn't Apply.

Especially when the Parent Who Fled
a Communist County Was the Legal
Guardian. BTW Oh Great One. The
Boy was Born 2 yrs. After She had
been divorced by "Elian's Father".
How about that? How About a DNA
TEST ? Let Reno & the INS Chase
the Mexican Drug Scum Back to
Mexico and Leave the Boy Alone.

The Man with the Plan in Havana Has
NO LEGAL Custody. Further, He remarried
and has a Child by the New Wife. All this
is a Political Game for "El Producto"
to Save face. Kennedy Would NOT give in !!!

I Remember the Cuban Missle Crisis, My
Father was Connected' with Civil Defense
then, And I was Later on. And my family fought
their way out of Communist Hungry in 1956 too.

Does that mean that when they swam across
the river to Freedom under machine gun fire
from "Friendly Russian T-54 Tanks" that
People like you would tell them, Oh , the
International Lawyers say you all have to
return to the Oppression you fought to leave?

I don't think so. And I suppose you were with
your "girlfriends" Protesting Vietnam, while our
class trip was a one way ticket for many of us.
And those of us that returned were spat on and
called "Baby Killers" by your friends? Once a
Commie Always A Commie Liberal Shill. Looks
to me they grew up still fighting the Liberal Cause
and Continued to Sell us Out. We're NO FONDA
JANE Here, JUNE. Hasta La Viesta Baby.

~ Mike ~
De Oppresso Liber
**
Title 10 USC.
--

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[uaicvtmb]

Nessie:

Perhaps you forgot what NAZI stood for? It was German for
the "National Socialist Party" i.e. Another Type of Socialism
Just as bad if not worse as the U.S.S.R. under Joe Stalin.

Mike
U.A.I.C.-VT.
*

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Kelly]

Tara wrote:

> Clinton's a wimp, who won't do anything to help this kid, but then the
> Canadian government is no better. Except Prime Minister Chretien prefers
> golfing and travel to sexual promiscuity.


You're Canadian?  Then you should know that Canada has relations with
Cuba, trades with Cuba, and you can hop on a plane in Canada and fly to
Cuba for a nice, cheap vacation.  Americans can't.

Kelly

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect

[Amelia]

- Original Message -
From: "nessie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Elian Gozales' Father Needs to Defect


> [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
> >
> >I've never heard of
>
> >anyone who died trying to get out of a non-communist country.
>
> Have you forgotten Nazi Germany?
>

And how about crossing the Mexican border?  What was it, 16 in the last
couple of weeks?  People are killed in illegal border crossings all the time
whether communism is involved or not.  This is now a custody dispute.
Amelia

http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om