date:20020811


We think the APster CryptoS is extremely attractive, Proffr
Rat said. (People ask), 'Is APster ready for primetime? Can I trust
it is reliable enough and fast enough?' With clusterfuckers, it's fast
enough. And with clusters, there's no single point of failure. If you
lose one rodent, you have three left. APster is suddenly unbreakable,
suddenly more reliable.
Although APster is huge, nobody looks at the cryptoS Beta and says,
'Wow, thats tech done right.' They say, 'That's tech for idiots,' and
our kids will want a lot more. 
Another tester of the e-mint module,CJD,warned PR,Careful bending
over in the shower to pick up the SOAP.However the easiest to use
and fastest app,WILE,the remailer,has had no complaints so
far,(well,maybe one from an east coast net loon,something about clones
dna) No serious drawbacks.
As last minute work progresses on the GUI,(something like the intro to
I-war) the air is dense with geekspeak spiced with a dash of federalese.
There's talk about encryption and nonrepudiation, digital signatures and
biometrics, and more acronyms than you'll find in a bowl of alphabet
soup: PKI, VPN, CHAP, TACACS,SOAP. All this for the highly anticipated
destruction of the DOD and the DOJ, the FBI and the NSA! Two out of three
rats carry cryptosporydium (a cause of gastroenteritis); 
only
slightly less common are salmonella, listeria (which causes septicaemia
and shrubs disease,lupus disseminata.Al Zeihmer works for us so why play
with palladium when your cruising with cryptoS?

Pakis needing killing

2002-08-11 Thread Major Variola (ret)


If somebody cannot produce some form of identification, he can't use
the
Internet. It's in the interest of law and order, and stopping
terrorism, said
Shahzada Alam, chairman of the Pakistan Telecommunications Authority,
which regulates the Internet in Pakistan.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/ap/20020805/ap_wo_en_po/pakistan_forbidden_internet_3

Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!

2002-08-11 Thread Hahaha


Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...


attachment: sexy virgin.scr

Approximately 70% of the world's lotteries at risk from obsolete tech.


Frank Groneman, a network-security engineer at Gtech Corp., a
Rhode Island firm that provides high-tech services for approximately 70%
of the world's lotteries, says that Security University courses gave him
the hands-on experience that he was looking for. I learn by
doing, he says. I can watch people put up slides all day, but
it doesn't really sink in. Like many other firms with high-level
security needs, Gtech encourages staffers to keep up to speed on the
latest advancements -- or risks -- in the field. We need to have
absolute security, Groneman says. One transaction could be
worth $200 million to $300 million. 
RSA Selected by GTECH Corporation to
Provide Encryption ... 
... Developers at GTECH Corp. used RSAs
BSAFE cryptography engine to build security
into the companys PRO:SYS on-line lottery system. ...
GTECH Corp. GTECH Corp. ... 
www.rsasecurity.com/news/pr/980331-2.html
- 20k - Cached - Similar pages 
Obsolete? The most trusted name in e-security? Surely some mistake! No.
Quantum Random Number Generator
Quantum Key Distribution
Single Photon Counting Module
FROM
http://www.idquantique.com/
Tick,tick,tick...

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread Sean Smith


Actually, our group at Dartmouth has an NSF Trusted Computing
grant to do this, using the IBM 4758 (probably with a different
OS) as the hardware.   

We've been calling the project Marianas, since it involves a chain of
islands.

--Sean

If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and yes,
even trust, each other remotely.  Some way in which a digital certificate
on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by some kind of remote,
trusted hardware device.  This way you could know that a remote system was
actually running a well-behaved client before admitting it to the net.
This would protect Gnutella from not only the kind of opportunistic
misbehavior seen today, but the future floods, attacks and DOSing which
will be launched in earnest once the content companies get serious about
taking this network down.










-- 
Sean W. Smith, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/   (has ssl link to pgp key)
Department of Computer Science, Dartmouth College, Hanover NH USA

Rosepetaling joshua.


A PERTH schoolboy's suggestion that rose petals be scattered on the streets 
of Manhattan to commemorate September 11 has reportedly been taken up.
Joshua Tan, 14, from the northern Perth suburb of Kallaroo, responded to a 
World Trade Centre website invitation to submit ideas on how to commemorate 
the anniversary, the Sunday Times reported today.
In his email the teenager suggested rose petals could be scattered in the 
streets to remember the victims and celebrate the victory of the spirit of 
the people, like in Roman times.
New York mayor Michael Bloomberg on Friday emailed back saying Joshua's 
suggestion would form a key part of the September 11 commemorations.
I can't believe that I'm on the other side of the world and my idea has 
been taken on board, Joshua told the paper.
I just had a feeling I wanted to do something and be part of it.
I had that feeling last year.Funny old world innit? Bloomberg probably 
smokes petals.

PMS at the dept of defense.








Defence system late - and $45m extra
By IAN McPHEDRAN
12aug02

TAXPAYERS will pay an extra $45 million for a new
defence computer system that is running three years late.



ADVERTISEMENT





A contract for the so-called Personnel Management Key Solution Project -
or PMKeyS - was signed in 1998 for $25 million, with a delivery date of
late 2000. 
In what has become a pattern for defence contracts, the system is not
only three years late, but will now cost $70 million. 
PMKeyS will cover records of 100,000 military, civilian and reserve
staff. 
About $60 million has already been paid to the contractor, with another
$10 million needed to complete the third of four scheduled phases. 
The new system has also angered army personnel who claim they have lost
their identity because regimental numbers have been removed from
personnel files. 
The contract with the firm PeopleSoft provided an initial budget of $25
million and a completion date of late 2000. 
PMKeyS is supposed to provide defence with a human resources management
computer system replacing more than 20 purpose-built systems. 
The civilian side of the system was up and running on time by late
1999.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,4882041%255E662,00.html

Re: [dgc.chat] free?

--- begin forwarded text

Status: RO
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:33:37 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [dgc.chat] free?
Cc: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 3:36 PM +1000 8/11/02, David Hillary wrote:
 I think that tax havens such as the Cayman Islands should be ranked
 among the freest in the world. No taxes on business or individuals
 for a start. Great environment for banking and commerce. Good
 protection of property rights. Small non-interventionist
 government.

Clearly you've never met Triumph, the Fabulous Crotch-Sniffing
Caymanian Customs Wonder Dog at extreme close range, or heard the
story about the expat's college age kid, actually born on Cayman, who
was literally exiled from the island when the island constabulary
discovered a marijuana seed or three in his summer-break rental car
a few years back.

I mean, his old man was some senior cheese at Global Crossing at the
time, but this was back when they could do no wrong. If that's what
they did to *his* kid, imagine what some poor former
junk-bond-hustler might have to deal with someday for, say, the odd
unauthorized Cuban nightlife excursion. A discretely folded twenty
keeps the stamp off your passport on the ground in Havana, and a
bottle of Maker's Mark goes a long way towards some interesting
nocturnal diversion when you get there and all, but still, you can't
help thinking that Uncle's going to come a-knockin', and that Cayman
van's going to stop rockin' some day, and when it does, it ain't
gonna be pretty.

Closer to home, conceptually at least, a couple of cryptogeeken were
hustled off and strip-searched, on the spot, when they landed on
Grand Cayman for the Financial Cryptography conference there a couple
of years ago. Like lots of cypherpunks, these guys were active
shooters in the Bay Area, and they had stopped in Jamaica, Mon, for a
few days on the way to Grand Cayman. Because they, and their stuff,
reeked on both counts, they were given complementary colorectal
examinations and an entertaining game of 20 questions, or two,
courtesy of the Caymanian Federales, after the obligatory fun and
games with a then-snarling Crotch-Sniffing Caymanian Wonder Dog.
Heck, I had to completely unpack *all* my stuff for a nice, well-fed
Caymanian customs lady just to get *out* of the country when I left.

Besides, tax havens are being increasingly constrained as to their
activities these days, because they cost the larger nation-states too
much in the way of escaped revenue, or at least the perception of
same in the local free press. Obviously, if your money there
isn't exchangeable into your money here, it kind of defeats the
purpose of keeping your money there in the first place, giving
folks like FinCEN lots of leverage when financial treaties come up
for renegotiation due to changes in technology, like on-line
credit-card and securities clearing, or the odd governmental or
quango re-org, like they are wont to do increasingly in the EU, and
the US.

As a result, the veil of secrecy went in Switzerland quite a while
ago. The recent holocaust deposit thing was just the bride and groom
on that particular wedding-cake, and, as goes Switzerland, so goes
Luxembourg, and of course Lichtenstein, which itself is usually
accessible only through Switzerland. Finally, of course, the Caymans
themselves will cough up depositor lists whenever Uncle comes calling
about one thing or another on an increasingly longer list of fishing
pretexts.

At this point, the legal, state-backed pecuniary privacy pickings
are kind of thin on the ground. I mean, I'm not sure I'd like to keep
my money in, say, Vanuatu. Would you? Remember, this is a place where
a bandana hanging on a string across an otherwise public road will
close it down until the local erst-cannibal hunter-gatherer turned
statutorily-permanent landowner figures out just what his new or
imagined property rights are this afternoon.

The point is, any cypherpunk worth his salt will tell you that only
solution to financial or any other, privacy, is to make private
transactions on the net, cheaper, and more secure, than transparent
transactions currently are in meatspace. Then things get *real*
interesting, and financial privacy -- and considerably more personal
freedom -- will just be the icing on the wedding cake. Bride and
groom action figures sold separately, of course.

Cheers,
RAH
(Who went to FC2K at the Grand Cayman Marriott in February that year.
Nice place, I liked Anguilla better though, at least at the time, and
I haven't been back to either since. The beaches are certainly better
in Anguilla, and the private banking system there is probably just
as porous as Cayman's is, by this point. If I were to pick up and
move Somewhere Free outside Your Friendly Neighborhood Unipolar
Superpower, New Zealand is somewhere near the top of my list, and
Chile would be next, though things change

Luv to Joshua.


Linux users of Victoria and many other exciting online groups await your 
input,see...
http://www.nambla1.de/
About NAMBLA
Membership
New and Noteworthy
Boys Speak Out
What People Are Saying
The Prisoner Program
What Can Science Tell Us?
Publications
Selected Readings
How old are you now J?You never write,call.

When are you comin' back jimmy bell


E-bomb may see first combat use in Iraq
17:45 08 August 02 NewScientist.com news service
Weapons designed to attack electronic systems and not people could see 
their first combat use in any military attack on Iraq.
It is widely believed that the US is planning for an attack that could 
overthrow Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, who it believes is developing 
weapons of mass destruction. The Iraqi president responded publicly for the 
first time on Thursday, exhorting Iraqis to be prepared with all the force 
you can to face your enemies.
US intelligence reports indicate that key elements of the Iraqi war machine 
are located in heavily-fortified underground facilities or beneath civilian 
buildings such as hospitals. This means the role of non-lethal and 
precision weapons would be a critical factor in any conflict.
High Power Microwave (HPM) devices are designed to destroy electronic 
equipment in command, control, communications and computer targets and are 
available to the US military. They produce an electromagnetic field of such 
intensity that their effect can be far more devastating than a lighting strike.
Pumped flux
The effect exploited by HPM weapons was accidentally demonstrated in the 
1950s when street lights in Hawaii were knocked out by the electromagnetic 
pulse produced by high altitude nuclear tests.
One unclassified approach to producing the required pulse is a device 
called an Explosive Pumped Flux Generator. In this a charged bank of 
capacitors energises a coil wrapped around a copper tube, which itself 
contains high explosives.
On detonation, the explosives expand the tube from the back and moves 
rapidly forward, forcing the tube to make progressive contact with the coil 
and causing a short circuit. This has the effect of crushing the magnetic 
field at the same time as reducing the coil's inductance.
The resultant spike lasts tens to hundreds of microseconds and can produce 
peak currents of tens of millions of Amps and peak energies of tens of 
millions of Joules. By comparison, a typical lighting strike produces 
around 30,000 Amps.
Single use
HPM weapons would be single-use and could be delivered on almost any a 
cruise missile or unmanned aircraft. Future devices are likely to be re-usable.
Military planners will be particularly interested in claimed ability of HPM 
weapon's to penetrate bunkers buried deep underground by using service 
pipes, cables or ducts to transmit the spike. Insulating equipment from 
such spikes, for example by using Faraday cages, is believed to be very 
difficult and expensive.
Another weapon that targets electronic equipment has already seen use in 
the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s. Blackout bombs, such as the formerly 
classified BLU-114/B, releases a spider's web of fine carbon filaments into 
the air above electrical distribution infrastructures. This causes short 
circuits when the filaments touch the ground.
Tomahawk cruise missiles fitted with warheads operating on similar lines 
attacked the Iraqi power grid during the 1990 Gulf war.
David Windle

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy


At 4:35 PM +0200 on 8/11/02, Anonymous wrote:


 Next, the internet boogeyman.

Nope. Just the clueless only knows one austrian remailer boogeyman. Watch
me make him go away:

*Plonk!*

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I'm genuinely sorry, but I couldn't resist this...

At 12:35 PM -0400 on 8/11/02, Sean Smith wrote:


 Actually, our group at Dartmouth has an NSF Trusted Computing
 grant to do this, using the IBM 4758 (probably with a different
 OS) as the hardware.

 We've been calling the project Marianas, since it involves a
 chain of islands.

...and not the world's deepest hole, sitting right next door?

;-)

Cheers,
RAH



 --Sean

If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and
yes, even trust, each other remotely.  Some way in which a digital
certificate on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by
some kind of remote, trusted hardware device.  This way you could
know that a remote system was actually running a well-behaved
client before admitting it to the net. This would protect Gnutella
from not only the kind of opportunistic misbehavior seen today, but
the future floods, attacks and DOSing which will be launched in
earnest once the content companies get serious about taking this
network down.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.5

iQA/AwUBPVafIMPxH8jf3ohaEQIdeACgjD/TkZ2aCzYLwT3hM0nqyU9lZf0An1I4
UHx4YfvVVkNcVcr+5Ambi4Md
=huDN
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Peoples daily golden tax.


2000.
Golden Tax Project Operational in Four Cities and Five
Provinces 
The State Council has decided that as of January 1, the
authentication, auditing and checking information management systems, as
an important component of China's Golden Tax Project, were the first to
be launched in four cities and five provinces
(Beijing,
Shanghai,
Tianjin and
Chongqing municipalities; and
Liaoning,
Shandong,
Jiangsu,
Zhejiang and
Guangdong provinces) on January 1,
2001. 
These systems will also be put into operation in 22 other provinces
beginning from July 1,2001. By then, the auditing and checking systems
will cover tax authorities at all levels nationwide through the Internet,
and a nationwide value-added tax (VAT) monitoring system will be
established across the country. 
It is reported that the Golden Tax Project, established in line with the
idea of science and technology plus management according to
the instructions of State Council leaders and in light of China's present
economic situation, is a VAT monitoring management system with Chinese
characteristicsBy the end of 2002, China will have introduced the
anti-counterfeit and invoice-related tax control system to ordinary
value-added tax payers. 
Sources say that the completion of the project on time and up to required
quality will play a significant role in preventing, checking and
prosecuting tax evasion and fraud activities carried out by making use of
the special value-added-tax invoices, and reducing losses of tax money;
it is also of importance to supervising and controlling the taxpayers'
activities of production and operation and change of their tax funds;

TODAY
Network reduces false invoices

Xinhua | BEIJING, Aug. 11 (Xinhuanet) -- The Golden Tax computerized tax network helped cut the numbe...
AT
http://www.chinanewsagency.com/
Why do these sites take so fucking long to load peter? PETER?

Diracs Sea.


http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/8/10/22052/7953
Honigs 'ether'...The standard model is totally unable to explain
mass without the higgs 
boson.Theres a hitch finding this 'god' 
particle according to new scientist,dec 8.01.Im unclear as to the 
difference between ether (honig) and a 'higgs field'(NS
article) 
Quantum mechanics based on
heisenbergs uncertainty principal is under 
attack.The two slit experiment has another explanation that even revives

'ether'
According to electrical engineering professor,bill honig.
The theory feynman was sure no one quite understood and einstein
mistrusted 
may be about to be superceded with potential to crack crypto's,holy 

grail,Quantum encryption.
(Before IdQuantique caught up with the pentagon.)
Quantum mechanics is 75 years young and the cornerstone of the
modern 
scientific world view.But it has its dissidents.
Bill honig's an internationally recognized inventor,journal editor and
long 
time academic at curtin university.A skeptical inquirer whose doubts
about 
the orthodoxy are caused by logic.
His rebellion took shape as a teen prodigy at a brooklyn high

school,asking too many questions about quantum mechanics.He went into

electrical engineering and rose high in military research.Then in 
mid-career,while working on nuclear weapons he had a change of 
heart.Looking in an atlas for a new home that might be safe and peaceful

and passing over iceland he settled on perth.WA.au.
Believing we can and must describe the fundamental particles of matter as

they really are there and not blurs of probability is carrying on
einsteins 
fight.In this old/new picture of the subatomic world,the basic particles

are spinning,electromagnetically
charged droplets;as they change speed they cast off expanding 
photexesthat are compared with smoke rings,rippling
outward.Space is an 
ether made up of two oppositely charged fluids.
END extract.more at...
http://www.physicsessays.com/
Honig has picked up 
and carried forward work by paul dirac.
Archive mining,You call this archeology!

Slashdot | Building Anonymous-Friendly Computer Libraries?


http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/02/08/11/0343222.shtml?tid=158
-- 

 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix

2002-08-11 Thread John Gilmore


 It reminds me of an even better way for a word processor company to make
 money: just scramble all your documents, then demand ONE MILLION DOLLARS
 for the keys to decrypt them.  The money must be sent to a numbered
 Swiss account, and the software checks with a server to find out when
 the money has arrived.  Some of the proposals for what companies will
 do with Palladium seem about as plausible as this one.

Isn't this how Windows XP and Office XP work?  They let you set up the
system and fill it with your data for a while -- then lock up and
won't let you access your locally stored data, until you put the
computer on the Internet and register it with Microsoft.  They
charge less than a million dollars to unhand your data, but otherwise
it looks to me like a very similar scheme.

There's a first-person report about how Office XP made the computers
donated for the 9/11 missing persons database useless after several
days of data entry -- so the data was abandoned, and re-entered into a
previous (non-DRM) Microsoft word processor.  The report came through
this very mailing list.  See:

  http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@wasabisystems.com/msg02134.html

This scenario of word processor vendors denying people access to their
own documents until they do something to benefit the vendor is not
just plausible -- it's happening here and now.

John

Re: TCPA/Palladium -- likely future implications (Re: dangers ofTCPA/palladium)

2002-08-11 Thread Peter Fairbrother


Adam Back wrote:
[...]
 - It is always the case that targetted people can have hardware
 attacks perpetrated against them.  (Keyboard sniffers placed during
 court authorised break-in as FBI has used in mob case of PGP using
 Mafiosa [1]).

[...]

 [1] FBI Bugs Keyboard of PGP-Using Alleged Mafioso, 6 Dec 2000,
 slashdot

That was a software keylogger (actually two software keyloggers), not
hardware. 

(IMO Scarfo's lawyers should never have dealt, assuming the evidence was
necessary for a conviction, but the FBI statement about the techniques used
was probably too obfuscated for them - it took me a good week to understand
it. I emailed them, but got no reply.

Incidently, Nicky Scarfo used his father's prison number for the password,
so a well researched directed dictionary attack would have worked anyway.)


The FBI reputedly can (usually, on Windows boxen) now install similar
software keyloggers remotely, without needing to break in.


-- Peter Fairbrother

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please click [unsubscribe].

Dacoits that leave law enforcement in the dust.


http://www.rediff.com/news/veerapan.htm
 'If the police
kills two of his men, Veerappan kills four policemen' 
http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/topten/fugitives/rudolph.htm

Aliases: Bob Randolph, Robert
Randolph, Bob Rudolph, Eric Rudolph and Eric R. Rudolph

Oh,and...
Marc Rich is a fugitive from justice and a tax cheat who renounced his
citizenship and fled the United States. Moreover, he traded with the
Iranian government while it was holding American hostages. 
We have always been at war with Oceania bin laden.

The US ally that will sever your motherfucking head off.


RIYADH: Saudi Arabia has executed an Indian man for smuggling heroin and
flogged 12 teenage boys in public for harassing women, Saudi media
reported on Sunday.
The youths were given 15 lashes each for flirting and bothering
families at a park designated for families in the conservative
Muslim kingdom, al-Eqtisadiah newspaper said.
Police flogged the youths immediately after catching them in the park in
the resort of Taif. The boys had entered the enclosure by scaling the
walls.
Saudi Arabia's strict implementation of Islamic sharia law bans unrelated
men and women from mixing before marriage. The paper did not make clear
when the floggings happened.
In a separate case an Indian man was beheaded on Sunday for smuggling an
unspecified amount of heroin into the kingdom, the official Saudi Press
Agency said.
The execution in the eastern Khobar province raised to at least 27 the
number of people put to death in the Gulf Arab state this year.
Drug smugglers, murderers and rapists are usually executed by public
beheading. At least 75 people were executed in the country last year and
121 in 2000.
Other punishments in the kingdom include stoning for adultery and
flogging for relatively minor crimes including alcohol consumption.
On the bright side at least some of them go in for fucking
camels.

Re: [CI] Re: Turing thesis(Incompleteness theorom)

2002-08-11 Thread James A. Donald


--
On 11 Aug 2002 at 10:36, Jim Choate wrote:
 All Godel really says is that math, physics, etc. must be taken
 on -faith- with regard to 'consistency'. In other words,
 'science' is just another 'religion'.

Choate's universe is a very strange place.




--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 g1mLlIzuFgLbXoOJFMHUW25JFxvX68MxJVBaw2T9
 2CyHwAWleXXEw7dAtv/o5PkeHz4+rp/NEMJFQPNfd

Diffie,Ellison,Dell will be held accountable.I PROMIS you.


The rush to the security pork is only eclipsed by the ratfuckers attempts
on penguins
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=18687260
Sun casts long shadow before major Linux gathering 

REUTERS [ SUNDAY, AUGUST 11, 2002 3:20:34 AM ] 
SAN FRANCISCO: Is there a wolf in penguin's clothing? That is the theme
of a spirited discussion among supporters of the Linux operating system,
a freely available piece of basic software with a penguin mascot.
The wolf potentially lurking just outside the door, some Linux-boosters
say, is Sun Microsystems Inc., the high-end computer maker, which is
expected to unveil its first general-purpose, low-end Linux machine, and
its own version of Linux, on the eve of a major convention for the
cooperatively developed software.
Linux, which will be debated and celebrated at the Linuxworld exposition
in San Francisco Aug. 13-15, must prove itself in the rarefied world of
running crucial corporate applications, like huge databases, analysts
said.
Linux is a new version of Unix, the mainstay corporate operating system,
though it does not yet have the reliability and power of older Unix
systems, analysts say.
Linux and Unix combined are competing with Microsoft, whose
Windows program is graduating from personal computers to powerful servers
and which offers its own, mostly-Microsoft view of the world, dubbed
.Net, said Pierre Fricke, an analyst at research firm D.H.
Browne.
Sun also remains one of Microsoft Corp.'s biggest rivals, and its latest
move has been blasted in advance by competitors.
They are trying to control something which inherently isn't
designed for that sort of control point,

Old Yeller.


http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18964.html
...Clustering technology is designed to help companies leverage the
power of interconnected computers by letting them serve as a single
processing unit. The technology promises more powerful applications that
provide a scalable, low-cost alternative to high-end, centralized
servers, such as those sold by IBM. 
The key is the clusters, because high-end computing is the focus of
our company, said Staats. Linux is the ideal operating system
for the clustering environment. 
Growing Interest 
With major players like Oracle
(Nasdaq: ORCL) and IBM (NYSE: IBM)
looking at clustering technologies, Terra Soft is positioned for growth,
especially because the Xserve has been well-received in the technical
community. 
Staats said after three years of making Linux available for Apple
computers, things are finally beginning to fall into place for Terra
Soft. 
There are now a large number of third-party solutions and products
and vendors and service providers and clients that are jumping on the
Yellow Dog [Linux] boat, said Staats. 
All About Science 
Terra Soft recently shipped version 2.3 of Yellow Dog Linux. The newest
version offers the KDE desktop, which
provides features like graphical user interface translucency.

Oh and Now and then, for no good reason, life will haul off and
knock a man flat, the father consoles his son. The 1957 Disney
movie OLD YELLER is like that. For most of the film, it is a light
hearted slice of life with scenes reminiscent of the old Disney nature
documentaries. Toward the end, the movie takes a sharp turn, transforming
it into a tragedy. 
For bill Gates I hope.

The RANT corporation


CATO sure has some flakes but a la rouchian in the RAND! Quelle fromage!
I would be hesitant to give too much credit to this recent briefing. It 
is very significant that the president, secretary of state and defense 
secretary have stated that this person's individual 'musings' did not 
reflect US policy. It is also important to point out that the Rand 
Corporation has also stated that this person's opinion did not represent 
their thinking.
Ambassador to Saudi Arabia,Jordan.http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=17658
Investors should also feel secure in the president's firm statements that 
top executives of companies that violate the law will be prosecuted, tried 
and if convicted could go to jail.
Like his pappy threatened to throw all those silverado type shysters 
inside,read my lips!
On 9/11 we will remember the solidarity of the Saudi people...
No smart assed comment.I am having some sort of seizure...

Cut the cost now on printing supplies

2002-08-11 Thread John




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Congress.This message is not intended for residents of WA, NV, CA, VA. Screening 
of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability.

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy

2002-08-11 Thread A.Melon


On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:22:15 -0400, you wrote:

 At 4:35 PM +0200 on 8/11/02, Anonymous wrote:


  Next, the internet boogeyman.

 Nope. Just the clueless only knows one austrian remailer boogeyman. Watch
 me make him go away:

 *Plonk!*

Based on your inability or unwillingness to address the issues identified 
specifically, that is 
pretty good course of action on your part.

I would think you might be interested in going deeper, as Blind signatures for 
untraceable 
payments is directly applicable to both digital settlement and digital voting. See 
http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds2-4/voting.html for an interesting little article of 
introduction about the topic. And there are many others more current and deep.

Those issues, remaining unaddressed by you, include:

The sold vote boogeyman.

You need to submit evidence that anonymous internet voting is more likely to be 
fraudulent 
than paper, voter-present by mail voting. You have submitted none, and the 
cryptography word is 
insufficient to scare me off.

The bogus digital voter registration boogeyman.

You may also wish to show how digital voter registration cards would be more likely to 
be bogus 
than Motor Voter, no-id required registration cards. Good luck.

The crypto boogeyman.

I challenge you to show that current, published crypto voting protocols cannot 
accomplish the 
following:
1. one digital sig, one vote, the first one, and the others are discarded
2. no dig signature, no vote
3. no dig voter registration, no dig sig
4. anonymity, i.e., no connectibility between the voter's choice and his identity.
5. auditability, i.e., connection between each voting lever throw and a dig sig for 
the current 
vote.

Next, the internet boogeyman.

It's just a pipe/wire/whatever. Bits. Don't be afraid. If the bits are properly 
signed, no problem 
and whether internet bits or voter-machine-punched-paper-tape-bits is irrelevant.

They are not strengthened or weakened by the mail server applied to their 
transmission, by the way.

Cheers!

Re: [CI] Re: Turing thesis(Incompleteness theorom)


At 11:58 AM -0700 on 8/11/02, James A. Donald wrote:


 Choate's universe is a very strange place.

One could even say it was, um, loopy...

:-).

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

You can brush my hair, undress me everywhere.


Life in plastic, it's fantastic,legal fight to protect parody and
commentary on the pop culture that shapes our society. Marketers cant be
allowed to pre-empt the marketplace of ideas.
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16699
Mattel Vs Aqua,parties advised to chill.Here come de
judge!
Drop out,Tune out,Turn off...the new leary,GWB.
Bush to Welfare Recipients: Drop Out of School.
Lost in the flood of big news stories--Iraq, the financial scandal,
Israel and Palestine, fast track--was a little gem from George W. on the
subject of welfare reform.
Speaking in Charleston, South Carolina, on July 29, Bush castigated
Senate Democrats for trying to take some of the nastier edges off of his
welfare bill.
Under the way they're kind of writing it right now, out of the
Senate Finance Committee, some people could spend their entire five
years--there's a five-year work requirement--on welfare, going to
college, Bush said to applause. Now, that's not my view of
helping people become independent. And it's certainly not my view of
understanding the importance of work and helping people achieve the
dignity necessary so they can live a free life, free from government
control.

Nepal,Aceh and Columbia collateral damage in War on Terra.


http://www.fas.org/asmp/library/asm/asm48.html
Just as the heavy handed Cold war led to incredible mass 
murder,torture,corruption and repression so goes the latest war on a 
tactic,this time,not even an ideology.
The provision on classified activities is especially troubling because it 
permits projects not otherwise authorized by law, in other words, covert 
actions.
This latest round of military aid has made one thing clear: the U.S. 
military has found a new excuse to extend its reach around the globe, 
arming regimes that had previously been blacklisted for human rights 
abuses, weapons proliferation, or brutal conflict.

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 12:51 PM -0700 on 8/11/02, A.Austrian.Idiot single hops yet
another remailer and wrote:


 I would think you might be interested in going deeper, as Blind
 signatures for untraceable  payments is directly applicable to
 both digital settlement and digital voting.

Yes. Of course. And, if you actually read it, or even just thought
about it instead of spewing oppositional bullshit to everything you
disagree with politically, :-), you'd soon realize that you can't
actually control an truly anonymous voting scheme any more than you
can control a truly anonymous bearer asset. Like equity, an anonymous
vote is completely salable.

In short, sir, please to fuck off, until you actually know what
you're talking about.

Cheers,
RAH

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.5

iQA/AwUBPVbGfsPxH8jf3ohaEQKaCACg5imhi38mKjBmPiX1uo4V2l77PiQAoK4K
Md2o5nPZy57vzqZNFDuJdFcP
=4bGV
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread Sean Smith


i guess it's appropriate that the world's deepest
hole is next to something labelled a trust territory :)

--Sean

:)

Nations Horoscope.


Remember Nancies astrologer?
During the(balkan) war years the programme Milja's Horoscope was amongst 
the most popular programmes on Serbia's third channel, which normally 
offered light entertainment. Milja, a somewhat dishevelled actress, 
pronounced herself to be an astrologer, telling the nation's fortune.
When the international community announced harsher measures against 
Miloevic's regime, she informed her viewers that a cosmic boomerang 
would strike back at the enemies of Serbia.
http://www.ce-review.org/ebookstore/reljic1.html

Keyser Soze in Hungary


http://www.ce-review.org/ebookstore/kosztolanyi1.html
Legalised corruption in the Communist days pervaded even the middle
and lower echelons of our society in the form of wage calculations based
on the expectation that practitioners of certain professions would be
able to top up their scanty earnings through tips. This was true of
everyone from taxi drivers, through petrol pump operators to doctors
(though the tips there have a grander sounding name,
paraszolvencia or hálapénz, translating literally as
gratitude money).
Under Kádár, a political position was a means of lining one's pockets, of
living the good life. Party lackeys were an elite, a caste unto
themselves and had many traits in common with today's mafia in the way
they went about their business of bleeding the state dry in creating a
conspiratorial, secretive world where everyone who counts knows everyone
else.
Never in the brief history of post-Communist democracy has the work
of a parliamentary committee attracted such a great deal of attention or
triggered such an outcry. Part of the fascination with Hungary's Oil
Committee lies not just with the general human preoccupation with the
seamier side of existence, the larger than life characters we have become
so accustomed to from the pages of countless detective novelsand with a
series of unexplained deaths, mafia retaliation hits and bombings, the
oil scandals have all the essential ingredients of any paperback
thriller...

Slashdot | Will CGI Collapse the Hollywood Economy?


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/08/11/157207.shtml?tid=126


-- 

 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella


At 4:17 PM -0400 on 8/11/02, Sean Smith wrote:


 i guess it's appropriate that the world's deepest
 hole is next to something labelled a trust territory :)

Tears run down my face, I laughed so much. My cheeks hurt, I'm smiling so
hard...


Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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2002-08-11 Thread tam4730f85


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7553Kkrx4-187sJsK8112kPoV5-919eQlh3199Gwde0-843MRYX2734l52
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Towels tax deduction.


The Taliban's Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice 
has been out of work since being so rudely interrupted by the infidel last 
fall. The MO worries that having these guys just sitting around might be a 
case of idle hands becoming the Great Satan's workshop - remember what 
happened with all those T-men after they repealed prohibition? So to 
prevent the Committee from turning into a bunch of nuevo-federal narcs 
who'll terrorize us all for decades, the MO suggests the Committee be put 
to work reviewing pornos and adding appropriate sound effects per Islamic 
law. Ludicrous dialog could have a laugh track added, just like in Chica 
Boom #12 The depiction of adultery could have the sound of stones falling 
on flesh; public nudity would have the sounds of lashing, all with suitable 
scrams and cries. You get the idea.
And in certain special cases, like Hershel Savage doing one of his 
disgusting stepfather routines, you would have the sound of a firing squad. 
Anything by Max H. would of course be drowned out by sounds of the 
urination of 1000 fat lesbians. Truly, the possibilities are endless. The 
MO offers to bring all the members of the idle Committee to his bunker in 
Quatar, set up editing bays, and put them to work in exchange for a modest 
federal grant. Surely this is preferable to a bunch of towel-headed dildos 
sitting around looking for work.
http://www.lukeford.com/
Site also seeks well hung asians if thats not an oxymoron.There has to be 
some legal asian hardwood out there somewhere.Get yer wood on!
Lets not forget big Jim,tax rebel par exellence..Like most guests of the 
state penal system,JB is working in prison for what amounts to slave wages 
and has virtually no money for toothpaste, magazines, socks, 
snacks,(well,maybe thats good.) writing paper and stamps. None of these 
items are allowed inside the facility from the outside world but JB can 
purchase them from the prison canteen. http://www.bop.gov/facilnot.html

Re: On alliances and enemies.




On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, cubic-dog wrote:

 On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Jim Choate wrote:
 
  On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, cubic-dog wrote:
  
   I don't see Stalin/Hitler, I see;
   
   Standard Oil/
   Department of Transporation/
   Interstate Commerce Commission)
   General Motors/
   Ford/
   and so forth.
  
  It's worth noting that the first two wouldn't have had near the impact
  they did if not for the help from entities like the later.
 
 I think it's fair to say without cooperation on
 behalf of all the players, none of them would have
 been in the posistions of power and influence
 that they were. (some still are)
 
  You draw a false distinction.
  
 
 How so? 

See your own responce, think about it this time.


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: On alliances and enemies.

2002-08-11 Thread cubic-dog


On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Jim Choate wrote:

 On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, cubic-dog wrote:
 
  I don't see Stalin/Hitler, I see;
  
  Standard Oil/
  Department of Transporation/
  Interstate Commerce Commission)
  General Motors/
  Ford/
  and so forth.
 
 It's worth noting that the first two wouldn't have had near the impact
 they did if not for the help from entities like the later.

I think it's fair to say without cooperation on
behalf of all the players, none of them would have
been in the posistions of power and influence
that they were. (some still are)

 You draw a false distinction.
 

How so?

Women shot dead.


http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=02/08/10/4020832
  Apparently buoyed by the earlier success in the take over of oil 
facilities, Itsekiri women yesterday in Warri marched against three 
multinational oil companies namely Shell, Chevron and Texaco, disrupting 
their operations.
At least one woman was shot dead in the scuttle that ensued between the 
protesters and security operatives drafted to ward off the women from 
advancing beyond the gates of Shell main office, situated opposite the 
Federal Government College, Warri.
The women protest coincided with the commencement of the strike by the 
Shell Petroleum Development Company (SPDC) branch of the Nigerian Union of 
Petroleum and Natural Gas Workers (NUPENG) in response to the lock-out of 
some members of the union by Shell management.
But the women, who sealed off the gates to the operational bases of the 
three oil companies simultaneously, said their action was to demand for 
scholarships and jobs for their children and wards, micro credit schemes 
for the women and the aged as well as the immediate end to gas flares, acid 
rains, oil spillage and other forms of environmental degradation plaguing 
their communities.
Hows yer SUV goin' sport?

Critical mass;way to go.Blocking up roads is a lot of fun.


On 15th July, a bunch of people from activist groups Rising Tide and 
Critical Mass met up on London's South Bank for a climate change bike ride 
round the city centre. We were going to stop at five evil companies around 
the capital to give them an award for fucking up our planet. Our first stop 
was the International Finance Corporation, which is part of the World Bank. 
It's right next to the Houses of Parliament - coincidence or what? We made 
some noise outside, handed out leaflets and gave them the award. Next we 
cruised off round Parliament Square. The 'Countryside Alliance' had a stall 
there, and I gave them a couple of shouts of 'get a job'. Then it was up 
Whitehall, through Trafalgar Square and on to the National Portrait 
Gallery, which is sponsored by BP. Next we moved off to Enterprise IG in 
Soho. These are the people responsible for BP's Helios awards, the in-house 
awards given to BP employees who do a good job of making the company look 
green and nice. We got a baffled response from the company's workers. They 
had to be told by their boss to get back inside and close all the windows 
(in case we bit?). We were on our way to Cromwell and Sullivan when some 
dude in a BMW ran over one of the guys on a bike. Luckily he wasn't hurt, 
even though the car had gone over his back wheel. The guy in the car looked 
like he was gonna shit himself when thirty bikers pulled up around him. He 
called the cops, who soon came and pestered everyone. Last of all, we went 
to the BP Head Offices in Finsbury Circus. Here the cops were waiting for 
us. British Transport Police had a dog unit and meat wagon ready. The 
security people from BP were also waiting, even though we'd no intention of 
raiding the place. The Azerbaijan PR man Ð sorry, 'Community Relations' 
officer - came out to talk to us (the demo was mainly about BP's proposed 
Azerbaijan pipeline). Eventually, everyone except from a couple of the 
hardcore went off to the London Activist Resource Centre (LARC) in 
Whitechapel. The hardcore stayed to play with the cops and nearly got 
stopped for cycling the wrong way round a roundabout. It was a nice protest 
- Critical Mass is so fucking empowering, I recommend everyone to try it. 
Blocking up roads with a load of bikes, making noise and just cruising 
around London  Rkn Anarchist Youth Network

In Thrall.Utima Thule?

anarchist magazine from Aotearoa/New Zealand. We apologise for the delay
in getting this issue up on the web.
visit
http://free.freespeech.org/thrall/23nzmayday.html

Contents include:
- People's Global Action - We are Everywhere even Aotearoa. An important international decentralised anti-capitalist network that has a branch right here in Aotearoa.
(Note: Since we published no.23, it has been announced there will be a PGA Aotearoa nationwide conference in November 9-10 in Wellington this year. This will most probably be the biggest gathering of direct action, anti-capitalist groups in Aotearoa for some time).
- People's Global Action - Analysis: A New International?
- Direct Action versus the Wellington inner city bypass. A brief documentation of working class community resistance.
- Wildcat strikes in Aotearoa
- Mayday reports from around Aotearoa
- Anarchy in the R.K. part two - a look at anarchism in South Korea from 1961 to the present day by a NZer who visited Korea
- Auckland housing occupation
- Anti-war, anti-Israeli state protests in Aotearoa
- The true story behind the mayday anti-capitalist invasion of Wellington
and some international news we couldn't squeeze into the printed issue of thrall specially for our website readers:
- Sydney Mayday report
- London Mayday report
The Thrall website has also been substantially updated to include new links to texts, radical history, and analysis people may be interested in.
If you are overseas and wish to receive the printed version of Thrall, you can subscribe if you send us a donation to the address below. Send us well-concealed cash (Aus $, US$ etc.). We appreciate donations as well, as we distribute our magazine for free.
Cheers, Fydd for the Thrall collective.
=
Thrall
PO Box 22-076
Christchurch
AOTEAROA/NEW ZEALAND
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website: target=_blankhttp://www.thrall.orcon.net.nz/
or http://www.freespeech.org/thrall
... Ultima Thule The highest or uttermost point or degree attained or attainable, the
acme, limit; the lowest limit, the nadir. The most distant unknown land. ...
RIP.Neil.

Dirty Knickers n Lollipops

2002-08-11 Thread Essex Girl

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Re: responding to claims about TCPA

2002-08-11 Thread Derek Atkins


AARG!Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I don't agree with this distinction.  If I use a smart card chip that
 has a private key on it that won't come off, is that protecting me from
 third parties, or vice versa?  If I run a TCPA-enhanced Gnutella that

Who owns the key?  If you bought the smartcard, you generated the key
yourself on the smartcard, and you control it, then it is probably
benefitting you.  If the smartcard came preprogrammed with a
certificate from the manufacturer, then I would say that it is
protecting the third party from you.

 I wrote earlier that if people were honest, trusted computing would not
 be necessary, because they would keep their promises.  Trusted computing
 allows people to prove to remote users that they will behave honestly.
 How does that fit into your dichotomy?  Society has evolved a myriad

The difference is proving that you are being honest to someone else
vs. an application proving to YOU that it is being honest.  Again, it
is a question of ownership.  There is the DRM side (you proving to
someone else that you are being honest) vs. Virus Protection (an
application proving to _you_ that it is being honest).

-derek

-- 
   Derek Atkins
   Computer and Internet Security Consultant
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ihtfp.com

SSZ: Extended Downtime



Hi,

SSZ will be down starting about Thu., Aug. 22 in the late evening, through
Sunday, Aug. 25. in the morning.

We apologize for the disruption, it was rather unexpected and there is
nothing we can do to avoid it.


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread Pete Chown


Anonymous wrote:

 As far as Freenet and MojoNation, we all know that the latter shut down,
 probably in part because the attempted traffic-control mechanisms made
 the whole network so unwieldy that it never worked.

Right, so let's solve this problem.  Palladium/TCPA solves the problem
in one sense, but in a very inconvenient way.  First of all, they stop
you running a client which has been modified in any way -- not just a
client which has been modified to be selfish.  Secondly, they facilitate
the other bad things which have been raised on this list.

 Right, as if my normal style has been so effective.  Not one person has
 given me the least support in my efforts to explain the truth about TCPA
 and Palladium.

The reason for that is that we all disagree with you.  I'm interested to
read your opinions, but I will argue against you.  I'm not interested in
reading flames at all.

-- 
Pete

Re: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors

2002-08-11 Thread Eugen Leitl


On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, R. Hirschfeld wrote:

 A trivial observation: this cannot be true across hardware platforms.

Untrue, just use a VM. Open Boot Forth would do nicely.

 TCPA claims to be platform and OS agnostic, but Palladium does not.

Have fun in that there tarpit.

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread R. Hirschfeld

 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:42:52 +0200 (CEST)
 From: Eugen Leitl [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Calling Lucky a liar is no more illuminating than others calling you
  an idiot.

 You're confusing a classification for an argument. The argument is over. 
 You can read it up in the archives. If you think there's still anything 
 left to discuss, I've got these plans of the Death Star I could sell 
 you...

I took a look at the archives as you suggested.  If it matters to you,
I wasn't referring to your classification of Anonymous as an idiot
(which I hadn't seen because it wasn't sent to the cryptography list),
but rather to an earlier comment (Wow.  You must really be an
idiot.) from somebody else.  Looking back at that message, it appears
that it was sent to the cryptography list but not to cypherpunks.

Discussion about TCPA/Pd continues, and I hope that disagreements
needn't degenerate into name-calling.

RE: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA


On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Russell Nelson wrote:

 I agree that it's irrelevant.  So why is he trying to argue from
 authority (always a fallacy anyway) without *even* having any way to
 prove that he is that authority?

What has 'authority' got to do with it? Arguments from authority are
-worthless-. Make up your own mind as to its validity, who cares about
their 'proof'.

-Who- is irrelevant. What damns his argument -is- his appeal to
-authority-. Anyone who bases their argument on 'He said...' has already
lost the discussion and invalidated any point they might make. It's one of
the primary fallacies of (for example) Tim May and his consistent appeal
to who he knows or what 'they' said.

We agree, what I don't understand is why you keep expecting that dead
horse to get up...keep asking those damning questions ;)


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

On the outright laughability of internet democracy


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(was Re: [dgc.chat] Re: [e-gold-list] Re: Thanks to Ragnar/Planetgold
and Stefan/TGC)

At 12:53 PM +0200 on 8/10/02, Arik Schenkler wrote:


 Internet voting, IMHO, will bring true democracy rather than a
 representatives democracy.

Well, that's just plain wrong.

Go look up discussions on google about cryptographic protocols for
internet voting. It just ain't possible without the most strict,
obscene, biometric, draconian, is a person, non-anonymous methods
you ever saw. Lions, tigers, and precious bodily fluids, boys and
girls.

The point to democracy, in the industrial/agricultural political
sense, is one man, one vote. One *anonymous* vote. On the net,
paradoxically, that is completely impossible. Votes can be sold. If
you fix it so that you can't sell votes without forgoing your
identity -- and thus your freedom -- and physically showing up
somewhere to vote, or at least proving that you have a device that
identifies you as a voter in the most immediate terms possible, you
can sell your vote, anonymously, on the net, for whatever the market
will bear, and *that* person can *re*sell your vote, and so on, just
like it was voting rights to a share of stock. That bit of
cryptographic mobiosity is probably down at the semantic level of
consistency versus completeness. Somewhere, Goedel and Russell are
laughing.

The net result, of course, of any kind of truly anonymous internet
voting, is anarchocapitalism, where people sell their voting control
over assets, including political assets, over and over in secondary
markets, on a continuing basis, in real-time. No political small-d
democrat (or small-r republican, or small-l libertarian, whatever)
I've ever heard of would call that a true democracy.

That particular prospect has anarchocapitalists, and
crypto-anarchists, out at the bar, buying both Herr Professor Goedel
and Lord Russell a beer or two...

Cheers,
RAH

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-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread Paul Crowley


AARG!Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Be sure and send a note to the Gnutella people reminding them of all
 you're doing for them, okay, Lucky?

Do the Gnutella people share your feelings on this matter?  I'd be
surprised.
-- 
  __  Paul Crowley
\/ o\ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/\__/ http://www.ciphergoth.org/

Re: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix

2002-08-11 Thread David Wagner


AARG! Anonymous  wrote:
His description of how the Document Revocation List could work is
interesting as well.  Basically you would have to connect to a server
every time you wanted to read a document, in order to download a key
to unlock it.  Then if someone decided that the document needed
to un-exist, they would arrange for the server no longer to download
that key, and the document would effectively be deleted, everywhere.

Well, sure.  It's certainly how I had always envisioned one might build
a secure Document Revocation List using TCPA or Palladium.  I didn't
realize this sort of thing would need explaining; I assumed it would be
obvious to cypherpunk types.  But I'm glad this risk is now clear.

Note also that Document Revocation List functionality could arise
without any intent to create it.  Application developers might implement
this connect to a server feature to enforce some seemingly innocuous
function, like enforcing software licenses and preventing piracy.  Then,
after the application has been deployed with this innocuous feature,
someone else might eventually notice that it could also be used for
document revocation.  Thus, Document Revocation List functionality could
easily become widespread without anyone realizing it or intending it.
This is a risk we should make think about now, rather than after it is
too late.

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy


At 4:35 PM +0200 on 8/11/02, Anonymous wrote:


 Next, the internet boogeyman.

Nope. Just the clueless only knows one austrian remailer boogeyman. Watch
me make him go away:

*Plonk!*

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella


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I'm genuinely sorry, but I couldn't resist this...

At 12:35 PM -0400 on 8/11/02, Sean Smith wrote:


 Actually, our group at Dartmouth has an NSF Trusted Computing
 grant to do this, using the IBM 4758 (probably with a different
 OS) as the hardware.

 We've been calling the project Marianas, since it involves a
 chain of islands.

...and not the world's deepest hole, sitting right next door?

;-)

Cheers,
RAH



 --Sean

If only there were a technology in which clients could verify and
yes, even trust, each other remotely.  Some way in which a digital
certificate on a program could actually be verified, perhaps by
some kind of remote, trusted hardware device.  This way you could
know that a remote system was actually running a well-behaved
client before admitting it to the net. This would protect Gnutella
from not only the kind of opportunistic misbehavior seen today, but
the future floods, attacks and DOSing which will be launched in
earnest once the content companies get serious about taking this
network down.

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-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

RE: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix

2002-08-11 Thread Lucky Green


David wrote:
 AARG! Anonymous  wrote:
 His description of how the Document Revocation List could work is 
 interesting as well.  Basically you would have to connect to 
 a server 
 every time you wanted to read a document, in order to 
 download a key to 
 unlock it.  Then if someone decided that the document needed to 
 un-exist, they would arrange for the server no longer to 
 download that 
 key, and the document would effectively be deleted, everywhere.
 
 Well, sure.  It's certainly how I had always envisioned one 
 might build a secure Document Revocation List using TCPA or 
 Palladium.  I didn't realize this sort of thing would need 
 explaining; I assumed it would be obvious to cypherpunk 
 types.  But I'm glad this risk is now clear.

To ensure priority for my Monday filings, I must point out at this time
that while AARG and David's methods of implementing a DRL are certainly
feasible, I believe a preferred method of implementing a DRL would be to
utilize features offered by an infrastructure, such as Palladium, that
supports time-limited documents: rather than requiring online access
whenever the document is attempted to be displayed, the document's
display permissions would be renewed periodically. If the display
software misses one or more updates, the document display software will
cease to display the document.

BTW, does anybody here know if there is still an email time stamping
server in operation? The references that I found to such servers appear
to be dead.

Thanks,
--Lucky

Re: Seth on TCPA at Defcon/Usenix

2002-08-11 Thread Joseph Ashwood


- Original Message -
From: AARG! Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[brief description of Document Revocation List]

Seth's scheme doesn't rely on TCPA/Palladium.

Actually it does, in order to make it valuable. Without a hardware assist,
the attack works like this:
Hack your software (which is in many ways almost trivial) to reveal it's
private key.
Watch the protocol.
Decrypt protocol
Grab decryption key
use decryption key
problem solved

With hardware assist, trusted software, and a trusted execution environment
it (doesn't) work like this:
Hack you software.
DOH! the software won't run
revert back to the stored software.
Hack the hardware (extremely difficult).
Virtualize the hardware at a second layer, using the grabbed private key
Hack the software
Watch the protocol.
Decrypt protocol
Grab decryption key
use decryption key
Once the file is released the server revokes all trust in your client,
effectively removing all files from your computer that you have not
decrypted yet
problem solved? only for valuable files

Of course if you could find some way to disguise which source was hacked,
things change.

Now about the claim that MS Word would not have this feature. It almost
certainly would. The reason being that business customers are of particular
interest to MS, since they supply a large portion of the money for Word (and
everything else). Businesses would want to be able to configure their
network in such a way that critical business information couldn't be leaked
to the outside world. Of course this removes the advertising path of
conveniently leaking carefully constructed documents to the world, but for
many companies that is a trivial loss.
Joe

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd)


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At 4:12 AM + on 8/11/02, David Wagner wrote:


 I hope I don't need to point out that always using the same exit
 remailer does *not* prove that he is using just one hop.  One can
 hold the exit remailer fixed while varying other hops in the path.
 Your question seems to be based on a mistaken assumption about how
 remailers work.

Sorry to give that impression, and, as much as I respect you, and
James Donald, who also makes the same assertion about me, both of you
would be wrong in assuming that I don't know how remailers work, at
least in principle. While I haven't ever built a remailer, I *have*
used them on occasion, and I did edit Sameer Parekh's excellent
introduction to anonymous remailers for one of the first issues of
First Monday, when I was on the editorial board there in the middle
1990's.


That said, I would be willing to bet a (very :-)) nominal amount that
the esteemed Mr. AAARG! is, or was, in fact, using one hop, at most,
though to prove the bet out would be difficult thing to do.

In fact, to add further insult to his street cred, or at least kick
some dust on his patent-leather penny-loafers, I wouldn't be
surprised if the remailer is his own, though that would probably be
too stupid even for him to do, and I'm not going to waste my time
rooting out, even at a first pass, who runs the AAARG! remailer. I
just say I wouldn't be surprised, is all. :-).


At the foundation, then, my point is still the same one that I
started with: the same, well, idiots, tend use the same outbound
remailer hops, usually to the exclusion of all other remailer nodes,
and, oddly enough, to the exclusion of all other users of that
particular remailer. It becomes quite easy then to filter them out,
which is, frankly, nice, at least as far as I'm concerned. Besides
Mr. AAARG!, another user of a certain Austrian remailer node comes to
mind. Both of those gentlemen, if I were to only charitably call them
such, do not vary their output remailers, much less do other
potentially clueful things, like actually sign their messages, for
instance.


Obviously all this might have to do with finding enough working
remailers to string together, and, of course, the lack of genuinely
any easy to use mixmaster clients out there, even now, and not for
actually trying, using a whole bunch of money in a couple of cases. I
suppose, given the use of lots of remailers as a platform to heckle
ostensibly reasonable discussion from the back benches, if not to
actually stalk online and send poison-pen email, it's easy to find
their difficulty of use a blessing; though like most people who care
about such things, it doesn't help the cause of ubiquitous internet
privacy too much. Maybe we need cash, or something. Someday. :-).



Ultimately, I think it boils down to genuine gall. If someone like
Mr. AAARG! would actually endeavor to instruct the residents of the
cryptography list, or even cypherpunks :-), of the utility of shoving
a particularly egregious bit of technological emetic down our
collective throats, or even the throat of the general public, one
would think he would have a better clue about remailer hygiene when
he treated us to his current round of venturi-vaporised drivel.

So, Mr. AARG! is, probably, just some advanced-degree moke who works
at Intel, or is a Waveoid, or other such Wintel digital rights
management IP-control fellow traveller, and, given the paucity of
his nocturnal emissions from behind the Great Oz's Green Velvet
Curtain, or, better, the elementary answers people here are forced to
use to explain more rudimentary things than remailer operations to
him, probably helps me, just a smidge, with my assertion about his
probable clueless use of the remailer network.


Cheers,
RAH

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-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd)


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At 9:15 AM +0200 on 8/10/02, Eugen Leitl wrote:


 I don't try to filter, but to join several sources. Anonymous is an
 idiot,  but at least an intelligent one. I can't leave him out
 without creating a  skewed picture of what is going on.

No offense meant, of course.

To make sure I don't miss stuff like that is why I subscribe to your
list anyway, even though I'm also subscribed to most of your sources.
It is also why I was glad you caught something he said that
confirmed, precisely, why he's still in my killfile. :-). I don't
need to raise my blood pressure more than necessary.

[Ob Cypherpunks: Seriously, folks. How clueful can someone be who
clearly doesn't know how to use more than one remailer hop, as proven
by the fact that he's always coming out of the *same* remailer all
the time? Even more important, nobody *else* uses that remailer,
which is why killfiling the idiot works so well to begin with...]

Anyway, on this list in particular, I've found that what any number
of smart people say about what the idiot du jour says is much more
interesting than what the actual idiot says himself, which is why he
can safely reside in a killfile.

(Having said more than my share of stupid things here myself in 8
years here, and being no stranger to the odd killfile myself :-), I'm
sure lots of peoples' irony meters are pegged, but, by definition,
those folks can go fuck themselves, I figure. :-).)

Cheers,
RAH

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-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: CDR: On the outright laughability of internet democracy



On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

 The point to democracy, in the industrial/agricultural political
 sense, is one man, one vote. One *anonymous* vote. On the net,

Complete and udder (as in cow piss) nonesense. There is -nothing- in the
concept of democratic representation that involves anonymity at -any-
point. Each person gets a vote, what that vote is must be unknown (not
anonymous).

Your thinking is as muddled as usual.


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: CDR: Re: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors



On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Russell Nelson wrote:

 AARG!Anonymous writes:
   I'd like the Palladium/TCPA critics to offer an alternative proposal
   for achieving the following technical goal:
   
 Allow computers separated on the internet to cooperate and share data
 and computations such that no one can get access to the data outside
 the limitations and rules imposed by the applications.
 
 Can't be done.  I don't have time to go into ALL the reasons.
 Fortunately for me, any one reason is sufficient.  #1: it's all about
 the economics.

Complete noise. Not only can it be done, it is being done.

Plan 9 has a namespace that is -per processs-, each process is distributed
(via a bidding process), and the process owner can be anonymized (though
this takes some extension beyond the base OS).

http://plan9.bell-labs.com


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: [dgc.chat] free?

--- begin forwarded text

Status: RO
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:33:37 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [dgc.chat] free?
Cc: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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At 3:36 PM +1000 8/11/02, David Hillary wrote:
 I think that tax havens such as the Cayman Islands should be ranked
 among the freest in the world. No taxes on business or individuals
 for a start. Great environment for banking and commerce. Good
 protection of property rights. Small non-interventionist
 government.

Clearly you've never met Triumph, the Fabulous Crotch-Sniffing
Caymanian Customs Wonder Dog at extreme close range, or heard the
story about the expat's college age kid, actually born on Cayman, who
was literally exiled from the island when the island constabulary
discovered a marijuana seed or three in his summer-break rental car
a few years back.

I mean, his old man was some senior cheese at Global Crossing at the
time, but this was back when they could do no wrong. If that's what
they did to *his* kid, imagine what some poor former
junk-bond-hustler might have to deal with someday for, say, the odd
unauthorized Cuban nightlife excursion. A discretely folded twenty
keeps the stamp off your passport on the ground in Havana, and a
bottle of Maker's Mark goes a long way towards some interesting
nocturnal diversion when you get there and all, but still, you can't
help thinking that Uncle's going to come a-knockin', and that Cayman
van's going to stop rockin' some day, and when it does, it ain't
gonna be pretty.

Closer to home, conceptually at least, a couple of cryptogeeken were
hustled off and strip-searched, on the spot, when they landed on
Grand Cayman for the Financial Cryptography conference there a couple
of years ago. Like lots of cypherpunks, these guys were active
shooters in the Bay Area, and they had stopped in Jamaica, Mon, for a
few days on the way to Grand Cayman. Because they, and their stuff,
reeked on both counts, they were given complementary colorectal
examinations and an entertaining game of 20 questions, or two,
courtesy of the Caymanian Federales, after the obligatory fun and
games with a then-snarling Crotch-Sniffing Caymanian Wonder Dog.
Heck, I had to completely unpack *all* my stuff for a nice, well-fed
Caymanian customs lady just to get *out* of the country when I left.

Besides, tax havens are being increasingly constrained as to their
activities these days, because they cost the larger nation-states too
much in the way of escaped revenue, or at least the perception of
same in the local free press. Obviously, if your money there
isn't exchangeable into your money here, it kind of defeats the
purpose of keeping your money there in the first place, giving
folks like FinCEN lots of leverage when financial treaties come up
for renegotiation due to changes in technology, like on-line
credit-card and securities clearing, or the odd governmental or
quango re-org, like they are wont to do increasingly in the EU, and
the US.

As a result, the veil of secrecy went in Switzerland quite a while
ago. The recent holocaust deposit thing was just the bride and groom
on that particular wedding-cake, and, as goes Switzerland, so goes
Luxembourg, and of course Lichtenstein, which itself is usually
accessible only through Switzerland. Finally, of course, the Caymans
themselves will cough up depositor lists whenever Uncle comes calling
about one thing or another on an increasingly longer list of fishing
pretexts.

At this point, the legal, state-backed pecuniary privacy pickings
are kind of thin on the ground. I mean, I'm not sure I'd like to keep
my money in, say, Vanuatu. Would you? Remember, this is a place where
a bandana hanging on a string across an otherwise public road will
close it down until the local erst-cannibal hunter-gatherer turned
statutorily-permanent landowner figures out just what his new or
imagined property rights are this afternoon.

The point is, any cypherpunk worth his salt will tell you that only
solution to financial or any other, privacy, is to make private
transactions on the net, cheaper, and more secure, than transparent
transactions currently are in meatspace. Then things get *real*
interesting, and financial privacy -- and considerably more personal
freedom -- will just be the icing on the wedding cake. Bride and
groom action figures sold separately, of course.

Cheers,
RAH
(Who went to FC2K at the Grand Cayman Marriott in February that year.
Nice place, I liked Anguilla better though, at least at the time, and
I haven't been back to either since. The beaches are certainly better
in Anguilla, and the private banking system there is probably just
as porous as Cayman's is, by this point. If I were to pick up and
move Somewhere Free outside Your Friendly Neighborhood Unipolar
Superpower, New Zealand is somewhere near the top of my list, and
Chile would be next, though things change

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy

2002-08-11 Thread Anonymous


On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:06:26 -0400, you wrote:
 Go look up discussions on google about cryptographic protocols for
 internet voting. It just ain't possible without the most strict,
 obscene, biometric, draconian, is a person, non-anonymous methods
 you ever saw.

Sure it is. The measures, if any, taken to insure that the person being granted a 
digital voter registration card is a 
qualified voter can be as lax or as stringent as the issuer may require. There is no 
reason that they would need be more 
stringent than current process, which, in the US, prohibit voter registration staff 
from requiring verification of identity. 
See the Motor Voter law.


 The point to democracy, in the industrial/agricultural political
 sense, is one man, one vote. One *anonymous* vote.

Except in Chicago, etc., etc.

 On the net,
 paradoxically, that is completely impossible. Votes can be sold.

No different from the current arrangement. Voting in many jurisdictions can be done 
today by mail. How would a digital vote, 
using cryptographic protocols to insure anonymity, and authenticity (the registered 
person who was issued the digital voter 
registration has digitally signed the vote) be less likely to be sold than a mailed 
in vote?

And pardon the political comment, but almost all votes are sold now, as in the United 
States the democratic custom has 
declined to using votes essentially to transfer wealth from earners to voting blocs.

 If
 you fix it so that you can't sell votes without forgoing your
 identity -- and thus your freedom -- and physically showing up
 somewhere to vote, or at least proving that you have a device that
 identifies you as a voter in the most immediate terms possible, you
 can sell your vote, anonymously, on the net, for whatever the market
 will bear, and *that* person can *re*sell your vote, and so on, just
 like it was voting rights to a share of stock.

It is quite simpler to do such fraud with mail in votes, or even buy me a drink and 
I'll vote however you'd like, or yes, 
this is my pictureless voter registration card, and I'm here to vote.

 That bit of
 cryptographic mobiosity is probably down at the semantic level of
 consistency versus completeness. Somewhere, Goedel and Russell are
 laughing.

A laugh a day keeps the economists away.


 The net result, of course, of any kind of truly anonymous internet
 voting, is anarchocapitalism, where people sell their voting control
 over assets, including political assets, over and over in secondary
 markets, on a continuing basis, in real-time. No political small-d
 democrat (or small-r republican, or small-l libertarian, whatever)
 I've ever heard of would call that a true democracy.

The sold vote boogeyman.

You need to submit evidence that anonymous internet voting is more likely to be 
fraudulent than paper, voter-present by 
mail voting. You have submitted none, and the cryptography word is insufficient to 
scare me off.

The bogus digital voter registration boogeyman.

You may also wish to show how digital voter registration cards would be more likely to 
be bogus than Motor Voter, no-id 
required registration cards. Good luck.

The crypto boogeyman.

I challenge you to show that current, published crypto voting protocols cannot 
accomplish the following:
1. one digital sig, one vote, the first one, and the others are discarded
2. no dig signature, no vote
3. no dig voter registration, no dig sig
4. anonymity, i.e., no connectibility between the voter's choice and his identity.
5. auditability, i.e., connection between each voting lever throw and a dig sig for 
the current vote.

Next, the internet boogeyman.

It's just a pipe/wire/whatever. Bits. Don't be afraid. If the bits are properly 
signed, no problem and whether internet 
bits or voter-machine-punched-paper-tape-bits is irrelevant.

Re: [CI] Re: Turing thesis(Incompleteness theorom)



On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:

 with reference to
 http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html
 
 
 Gödel asks for the program and the circuit design of
 the UTM. The program may be complicated, but it can
 only be finitely long. 

I know of no such requirement in Godel's Theorem, since I didn't write the
above site I can't really address what they meant to say. I would suggest
contacting the author for clarification. It's also worth mentioning that
Godel announced his work in 1931, Turing in 1936. I'd be suspect of any
comment about Godel that had anything to do with TM's in a 'proof'.
'Computabilty' and 'Proof/Consistency' are not equivalent.

All Godel really says is that math, physics, etc. must be taken on -faith-
with regard to 'consistency'. In other words, 'science' is just another
'religion'. The reason is that if you can't prove all statements then any
statement you do 'prove' is suspect because there are statements out there
that -might- express a boundary condition the original proof didn't take
into account. Such statements themselves may be unprovable. This means
that even 'proven' statements aren't -really- 'proven'. It's a 'Scope' problem.

That's why I'm a Pantheist. Einstein was wrong, Hawkings was right. God
not only plays with dice, he sometimes throws them where you can't see
them (ever).


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella


At 4:17 PM -0400 on 8/11/02, Sean Smith wrote:


 i guess it's appropriate that the world's deepest
 hole is next to something labelled a trust territory :)

Tears run down my face, I laughed so much. My cheeks hurt, I'm smiling so
hard...


Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: On alliances and enemies.




On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, cubic-dog wrote:

 On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Jim Choate wrote:
 
  On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, cubic-dog wrote:
  
   I don't see Stalin/Hitler, I see;
   
   Standard Oil/
   Department of Transporation/
   Interstate Commerce Commission)
   General Motors/
   Ford/
   and so forth.
  
  It's worth noting that the first two wouldn't have had near the impact
  they did if not for the help from entities like the later.
 
 I think it's fair to say without cooperation on
 behalf of all the players, none of them would have
 been in the posistions of power and influence
 that they were. (some still are)
 
  You draw a false distinction.
  
 
 How so? 

See your own responce, think about it this time.


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread Sean Smith


i guess it's appropriate that the world's deepest
hole is next to something labelled a trust territory :)

--Sean

:)

Re: On alliances and enemies.



On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Mark wrote:

 And what is your position on IBM, Hitler, their interaction during WWII,
 etc?

Position? I believe it is a -fact- that IBM helped Hitler. Quit playing
spin doctor.

Should that mean that todays IBM should be held accountable? No, not
unless you want to be held accountable for what your parents did.

What is your position on reparations to the negro community for actions
against their ancestors by YOUR ancestors?

The sins of the father are -never- passed to the sons by any sort of
ethical system worth the name.

Does that answer your question?


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: On alliances and enemies.

2002-08-11 Thread Mark


Jim Choate said:
I don't see Stalin/Hitler, I see;
   
Standard Oil/
Department of Transporation/
Interstate Commerce Commission)
General Motors/
Ford/
and so forth.
  
   You draw a false distinction.

And what is your position on IBM, Hitler, their interaction during WWII,
etc?

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy

2002-08-11 Thread xganon


On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:18:32 -0400, you wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 At 12:51 PM -0700 on 8/11/02, A.Austrian.Idiot single hops yet
 another remailer and wrote:

Namecalling. Possibly your strongest argumentation?

  I would think you might be interested in going deeper, as Blind
  signatures for untraceable  payments is directly applicable to
  both digital settlement and digital voting.

 Yes. Of course. And, if you actually read it, or even just thought
 about it instead of spewing oppositional bullshit to everything you
 disagree with politically, :-),

Must have touched quite a raw nerve here. My thanks for your not spewing oppositional 
bullshit. 
And what, pray tell, am I disagreeing with politically?

 you'd soon realize that you can't
 actually control an truly anonymous voting scheme any more than you
 can control a truly anonymous bearer asset. Like equity, an anonymous
 vote is completely salable.

Read first, spew later.


 In short, sir, please to fuck off, until you actually know what
 you're talking about.

Another of your better argumentation. It is difficult to choose between your vulgar 
manner or your 
avoidance of facts, as the better explanation of the failure of your Internet Bearer 
Underwriting ventures.

Cheers!

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella (fwd)

2002-08-11 Thread David Wagner


R. A. Hettinga wrote:
[Ob Cypherpunks: Seriously, folks. How clueful can someone be who
clearly doesn't know how to use more than one remailer hop, as proven
by the fact that he's always coming out of the *same* remailer all
the time?

I hope I don't need to point out that always using the same exit remailer
does *not* prove that he is using just one hop.  One can hold the exit
remailer fixed while varying other hops in the path.  Your question
seems to be based on a mistaken assumption about how remailers work.

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella

2002-08-11 Thread Bram Cohen


AARG!Anonymous wrote:

 I will just point out that it was not my idea, but rather that Salon
 said that the Gnutella developers were considering moving to authorized
 clients.  According to Eric, those developers are fundamentally stupid.
 According to Bram, the Gnutella developers don't understand their
 own protocol, and they are supporting an idea which will not help.
 Apparently their belief that clients like Qtrax are hurting the system
 is totally wrong, and keeping such clients off the system won't help.

You can try running a sniffer on it yourself. Gnutella traffic is almost
all search queries. 

 As far as Freenet and MojoNation, we all know that the latter shut down,
 probably in part because the attempted traffic-control mechanisms made
 the whole network so unwieldy that it never worked. 

Mojo Nation actually had a completely excessive amount of bandwidth
donated to it. There was a problem that people complained of losing mojo
when running a server due to the total amount of upload being greater than
the total amount of download. The main user experience disaster in Mojo
Nation was that the retrieval rate for files was very bad, mostly due to
the high peer churn rate.

 At least in part this was also due to malicious clients, according to
 the analysis at http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/188.pdf.

Oh gee, that paper mostly talks about high churn rate too.

In fact, I was one of the main developers of Mojo Nation, and based on
lessons learned from that figured out how to build a system which can cope
with very high churn rates and has good leech resistance. It is now mature
and has had several quite successful deployments.

http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/

Not only are the algorithms used good for leech resistance, they are also
very good at being robust under normal variances in net conditions - in
fact, the decentralized greedy approach to resource allocation outperforms
any known centralized method.

The TCPA, even if it some day works perfectly (which I seriously doubt it
will) would just plain not help with any of the immediate problems in
Gnutella, BitTorrent, or Mojo Nation. I would guess the same is true for
most, if not all other p2p systems.

-Bram Cohen

Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent
-- John Maynard Keynes

Re: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA

2002-08-11 Thread Ben Laurie

Lucky Green wrote:
 Ray wrote:

From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700

On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:

both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict
what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at 
http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads

They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability.

To make their denial credible, they could give the owner 
access to the private key of the TPM/SCP.  But somehow I 
don't think that jibes with their agenda.

 Probably not surprisingly to anybody on this list, with the exception of
 potentially Anonymous, according to the TCPA's own TPM Common Criteria
 Protection Profile, the TPM prevents the owner of a TPM from exporting
 the TPM's internal key. The ability of the TPM to keep the owner of a PC
 from reading the private key stored in the TPM has been evaluated to E3
 (augmented). For the evaluation certificate issued by NIST, see:

 http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/PPentries/CCEVS-020016-VR-TPM.pdf

Obviously revealing the key would defeat any useful properties of the 
TPM/SCP. However, unless the machine refuses to run stuff unless signed 
by some other key, its a matter of choice whether you run an OS that has 
the aforementioned properties.

Of course, its highly likely that if you want to watch products of Da 
Mouse on your PC, you will be obliged to choose a certain OS. In order 
to avoid more sinister uses, it makes sense to me to ensure that at 
least one free OS gets appropriate signoff (and no, that does not 
include a Linux port by HP). At least, it makes sense to me if I assume 
that the certain other OS will otherwise become dominant. Which seems 
likely.

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html   http://www.thebunker.net/

Available for contract work.

There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff

Re: [CI] Re: Turing thesis(Incompleteness theorom)


At 11:58 AM -0700 on 8/11/02, James A. Donald wrote:


 Choate's universe is a very strange place.

One could even say it was, um, loopy...

:-).

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Re: Challenge to TCPA/Palladium detractors

2002-08-11 Thread Joseph Ashwood


- Original Message -
From: Eugen Leitl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Can anyone shed some light on this?

Because of the sophistication of modern processors there are too many
variables too be optimized easily, and doing so can be extremely costly.
Because of this diversity, many compilers use semi-random exploration.
Because of this random exploration the compiler will typically compile the
same code into a different executable. With small programs it is likely to
find the same end-point, because of the simplicity. The larger the program
the more points for optimization, so for something as large as say PGP you
are unlikely to find the same point twice, however the performance is likely
to be eerily similar.

There are bound to be exceptions, and sometimes the randomness in the
exploration appears non-existent, but I've been told that some versions the
DEC GEM
compiler used semi-randomness a surprising amount because it was a very fast
way to narrow down to an approximate best (hence the extremely fast
compilation and execution). It is likely that MS VC uses such techniques.
Oddly extremely high level languages don't have as many issues, each command
spans so many instructions that a pretuned set of command instructions will
often provide very close to optimal performance.

I've been told that gcc does not apparently use randomness to any
significant degree, but I admit I have not examined the source code to
confirm or deny this.
Joe

Re: Thanks, Lucky, for helping to kill gnutella



There is a better way than the traditional 'client/server' approach
(distributed or not). It addresses each and every one of these issues and
its already written (by the people who invented Unix no less). And it's
Open Source (under it's own license). Even has crypto built in.

Plan 9.

http://plan9.bell-labs.com

And the only user/co-op group (not for long hopefully),

http://open-forge.org

On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Jeroen C.van Gelderen wrote:

 
 On Friday, Aug 9, 2002, at 13:05 US/Eastern, AARG!Anonymous wrote:
  If only...  Luckily the cypherpunks are doing all they can to make sure
  that no such technology ever exists.  They will protect us from being 
  able
  to extend trust across the network.  They will make sure that any open
  network like Gnutella must forever face the challenge of rogue clients.
  They will make sure that open source systems are especially vulnerable
  to rogues, helping to drive these projects into closed source form.
 
 This argument is a straw man but to be fair: I am looking forward to 
 your detailed proof that the only way to protect a Gnutella-like 
 network from rogue clients is a Palladium-like system. You are so 
 adamant that I have to assume you have such proof sitting right on your 
 desk. Please share it with us.
 
 -J
 
 
 -
 The Cryptography Mailing List
 Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 


 --


  Conform and be dull..J. Frank Dobie

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.open-forge.org

Re: On the outright laughability of internet democracy


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 4:33 PM -0500 on 8/11/02, the Austrian one-hop-wonder changed
remailers again, jumped out of the kill-file, followed me around the
mail list and started humping my leg with:


 Namecalling. Possibly your strongest argumentation?

Not at all. I really do believe the word idiot is most appropriate
to your level of intelligence, and that makes it merely an
observation of fact on my part. However, to honor your persistence, I
will call you names later, since you really want it so bad.

But, first...

 Must have touched quite a raw nerve here. My thanks for your not
 spewing oppositional bullshit. And what, pray tell, am I
 disagreeing with politically?

You are clearly a statist. In my autodydactic but still fairly
practiced opinion, an idiot statist. Statist because apparently
you've never seen a nation-state you didn't want to suck up to.
Idiot, because when someone makes a statement of fact, like I did
several times in a row in this thread, you refute it with something
other than reason. Usually a repetition of the same thing over and
over, even when it clearly doesn't work for you. Certainly the very
definition of lunacy, if it's not actual idiocy.

There. How's that for a characterization of your disagreeable
politics?

 you'd soon realize that you can't
 actually control an truly anonymous voting scheme any more than
 you can control a truly anonymous bearer asset. Like equity, an
 anonymous vote is completely salable.

 Read first, spew later.

[This is, ladies, and gentlemen, exactly what *I* would call
oppositional bullshit. Notice that he merely said the logical
equivalent of I know you are, but what am I? Oppositional. And
Bullshit. Check, and Check. Notice he says nothing, including his
previously ignored and recursively regurgitated refutation of that
claim at the beginning of the thread, that actually counters what
I've said all along, copied above in the interest of completeness, if
not consistency, above.

But enough of that, well, idiocy. Now, boys and girls, let's have
some fun, shall we? He thinks I'm insulting. Clearly he hasn't been
here long enough. :-) First a, um, warm-up. Where were we. Oh, yes.
Here we are...]

 Read first, spew later.

Cranky, Mr. One-Hop? Whatsa matter? Your ancient mother give you a
friction burn in the sack last night? K-Y's cheap, you know. You
should try it. I hear it even, um, comes in flavors these days...

[...and, as promised, the main event...]

 In short, sir, please to fuck off, until you actually know what
 you're talking about.

 Another of your better argumentation. It is difficult to choose
 between your vulgar manner or your avoidance of facts,

Allow me to argue even better then, in a matter you seem to
appreciate most.

You, sir, are an imbecile. A Poltroon. A Spittlelicker and a toady
[Thanks to Patrick O'Brien...]. [Postmodern anti-imperialist] A
statist lackey (sorry Ryan :-)). A straw-felching pederast [my
apologies to all felchers, straw-using, and otherwise, and, of
course, to pederasts everywhere...]

Ah, the pain of monolinguality. You've said it yourself, haven't you?
I really should learn to use other languages, as my life would be so
much richer.

In that, um, vein, and in your multilingual honor, I hope I'm
forgiven if I got some help,. The following are compliments of the
good folks at http://www.insults.net/:

Yiddish -- Yutz. Putz. (I'm sorry you'd don't qualify for Schmuck,
Mr. One-Hop, much less Schlong, but, by the way you acquit yourself
here on cypherpunks, that would be off by an order or two of
magnitude. Or, heh, three. :-). Maybe it got dwarfed by friction
burn, or something. Better put some ice on that?) Schlemeil,
Schlmazel, [I feel like Laverne and Shirley, here...] Mishugena. Gayn
Cacken Ofn yam.

French -- Lhche mon cul. [I think that one says it all, don't you
think? The French have *such* a classy expression for *everything*.]

German -- Depp (sound familiar?), Arschgesicht, Leck mich am Arsch
[there's an echo in here...], Hosenscheisser, and, probably most
applicable to your career and qualifications, Arschkriecher [cf
Toady, above].

Afrikaans [vaguely brutal, and to the point] -- Poephol.

Japanese [cute, in a Hello Kitty kind of way] -- kisama.

Cantonese [phonetic] -- lay da yuen fay gay mm sai sou.

Mandarin [also phonetic] -- Liu mang.

Finnish [in honor of Linus] -- Ditisi nai poroja!

Dutch [as one would expect :-), they're particularly creative, but I
like a little irony, myself] -- droogkloot.

And, finally, Latin [a classic, rendered in a classic tongue, and in
memory of your aforementioned chronic lack of nightly lubrication]--
tua mater.

 as the better explanation of the failure of your Internet Bearer
 Underwriting ventures.

We'll see, I suppose. At least I haven't quit yet. Nonetheless, it's
a safe bet that as much as I'm too stupid to quit trying to make IBUC
work, you will *always* be more stupid than I am.

Now, somehow, I really feel like I got

Re: Turing thesis