Re: The real Debian.org
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:43:56 +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Thanks Dave, I needed a laugh to brighten up an otherwise uneventful day. And I thought all you had to do was mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with some technical details, I think I forgot to include the grovelling my email.. oops. Sorry Bruce, Klee, Guy and other committee members. Bruce what do you have to say about me submiting any work to the project? On Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:33 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: There's a little trust issue standing in the way of that, I fear. Various other posts making it clear my work will not be accepted (most not in such a cheery tone) available upon request. Or maybe you could just ask Bruce yourself? -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
The real Debian.org
Take heed people. This is what happens if you dare challenge the leadership of the Debian project. Personal attacks, compliants to your service provider, banishment from the project. They will gang-up on you and drive you away. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. If you are new to Debian, please don't make the mistake I made. This is a closed software project, where you are allowed to contribute only if you surcome to the personal agenda of the current leadership. This is the structure and model of the project, make no bones about it. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: The real Debian.org
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:25:56 -1000 (HST), Jimen Ching wrote: First off, I am not a developer of Debian packages and thus do not know how Bruce Perens manages the distribution. But basically I have two comments. 1. To DC, your first mistake was to post your request to all of the debian lists. The problem with this is that this is a developers' issue, not a users' issue. My orginal post was to all list because it concerned everyone involved in the project. (Removal of project leader) 2. To the users, it's so pitiful that users of a distribution is so quick to kick out a DEVELOPER just because he disagrees with the leader. You're going to get a lot of flack over this. See I'm not a developer. Why? I'm not allowed to be. But don't worry this catch 22 does nothing to prevent other developers that are *allowed* by Bruce from pointing the finger at me for not being a developer. As a user, I must laugh at some of the criticisms. Spelling mistakes? Use of initials instead of the full name? These are reasons for ignoring a complaint? It is scary to find out that this type of group can decide who becomes a developer for debian and who doesn't. That's the point, let it be known. I am done with it and debian. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: IMPORTANT Correction: The real Debian.org
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:54:15 +0100, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 1997 at 12:25:56PM -1000, Jimen Ching wrote: 2. To the users, it's so pitiful that users of a distribution is so quick to kick out a DEVELOPER just because he disagrees with the leader. Please notice that Dave Cinege is NOT a debian developer. See what I mean Convenently left out is I would be maintaining packages, as well writing a new system package, if I was allowed to. I was also going to open a crypto mirror, but Bruce made it clear it to would not be recognized. It seems to me that you missed the long thread on debian-devel a while ago, where dave has used uglier things than common four letter words to express his opinion :( I can post you this thread, it is only slightly larger than one megabyte... Where the same lynching immedatly began, and I made the mistake of responding too. Many of the same people, including Marcus, started the fireworks back then as well. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:57:18 -0500, Steve Greenland wrote: Because you didn't contribute anything accept noise and dissent. I've yet to see Bruce refuse to allow someone to work on Debian, who actually had something to contribute. From Ian to me, and Bruces interjection 2 days ago: -- On Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:33 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ian Jackson) You might also find that becoming a developer would enhance your credibility. There's a little trust issue standing in the way of that, I fear. -- I have Bruces previous posts saying he would not allow my work as well as his post from months back to myself and Paul Wade saying he didn't need us anymore in his project. I can post them if people wish. I'm not going to get into arguing all this. It's happening and you're free to deny it if you can't deal with it. Bruce: Don't back down to this paranoid jerk. Just hope he goes away. Obivouly you've gone into this with an open mind. As usual Bruce couldn't possibliy do anything wrong. You are the third guy to call me paraniod yet I am staring at Bruces various posts and emails on this from months back, so I know what I'm saying is true. Unfortunaty you find it most important to attack me then admit to what is actually happening. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Please recommend a quality 4GB hard drive
I build with all quantums now. They run good, fast and usually seems to be a good deal cooler then a seagate counter part. The main deciding factor is they have quick warranty turn. Seagates policy is CRAP! In the last 9 months I've used about 30 SCSI and IDE Fireballs, and half dozen 4gb atlas II. All everything has been 100% out of the box. My personal raid has been running well over a year with 4 1gb Atlas. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: mysql deb package
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:56:06 -0500 (CDT), Timothy Phan wrote: Hi, Would someone build the debian package for MySQL and other MySQL related such as mySQL-perl, mySQL-tcl, mySQL-JDBC, mySQL-ODBC on 1.3? I've downloaded the one in hamm/ and it requires libc6 which my debian box is not yet upgraded. It would be much easier to just install libc6. It will coexsist fine with libc5.. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Samba security hole....
A few weeks ago I remebmer seeing that big hole was found in samba. As of what debian package version has this been fixed? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: debian version 1.3.1 ?
On Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:06:25 -0400 (EDT), Bob wrote: I recently add X to my debian box. My debian version still shows 1.3 Shouldn't this now read 1.3.1?? It should actualy read somewhere around 1.3.5, but some people in the project have found it to be more important to have a static rev number for commercial reasons, instead of letting people know what is actually installed on their systems. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
1.2.4-ssl Re: Apache-ssl
On 06 Oct 1997 11:03:47 +0200, Christoph Martin wrote: It is a remainder. It will be removed soon. Look in unstable for an binary package. Any idea when 1.2.4-ssl will be available? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: How to multitask in X-windows?
On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:04:53 -0400, Jason Costomiris wrote: On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 07:36:02PM -0400, ImmortaL wrote: : I need to know if there a way in x-windows for example in the shell itself : i would press the alt key and the F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 to open a new window is : there a way to do this in X? Uh, open another xterm. Think you missed him. Under X it's crtl-alt-Fx instead of just alt-Fx - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: serial port speed
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:21:15 +0100 (BST), David Wright wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Dave Cinege wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:23:03 +1000, Lawrence wrote: Anyone knows the default serail port speed? It is 38,400bps? Which file responsible for this setting? I want to increase it to 115,200bps. 38.4K, yes, /etc/rc.boot/0setserial, use the spd_vhi option. Perhaps there's some history here. I installed Debian 1.3 on a 1997 pentium and setserial -a /dev/ttyS? all say that baud_base is 115200 and Flags: spd_normal... Both mgetty and minicom will satisfactorily handle 115200, so all this messing with spd_vhi seems to be a thing of the past. Presumably, by now, any software that can't ask for 38400 should have a bug report filed against it. Uhhum.Some of us use redirection and piping of the serial ports. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Graphical User Interface
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:59:04 -0500, Tony Koehn wrote: I have never seen linux operate on any kind of graphical interface like Windows 95. What GUI do most people use? How easy is it to install? Someone told me of a web site that had different GUI stuff for linux but I lost it. Anyone have such a site? While striving to make xwindows and add-on GUI indepdent, it seems no one had time to actully make a GUI. KDE (still quite alpha) is the only things I've yet ot see come close. But then again as an OS/2 user I have higher standards. As far as I'm concerned 95 barelly has a GUI. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Linux Termservers was:Re: How many modems ?
On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:44:49 -0400, Jason Costomiris wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 07:41:52AM -0500, Dave Cinege wrote: : [1] A studly enough box to support 48 modems. : : Depends on dump or smart serial board. Smart, 486 66 should be comfortable, : dumb, pentium class...maybe 100. 16MB should be OK. With the price of : memory it won't kill you to throw in 32 either. Ahh.. answering the phone is one thing. You need the studliness to handle the pppd's and the routing. Articles I've read suggest having 2 MB RAM per modem, after OS overhead.. What has your experience been? Hmm you caught me here. I gave a generic answer for the memory (for a 8-16 port set-up) instead of thinking it out for the full 48 : P Just did some test, and total VM size (as listed by ps) for the PPP session is about 1950K. Actual usage is about 250K locked, and 325K listed as shared. (Just called in to my termserver) I've not worked with big enough ppp set-ups to set how well this shared area actully works out, but possibly you could survive with 500K per port. So 32mb (24mb for 48 ppps, 4mb ramdisk, 4mb kernel) might do it. I'd like to find out for sure myself. Either way memory prices are under $100 for 32mb, so this is basiclly a moot point. BTW how much ram does a PM3 have in it? I've heard reports that the PM2 (maybe 3) was only an AMD 486 DX 40. : Anything you could build and sell for $2K I wouldn't classify as a server. : : P Oh, but you didn't see the newsbeast I built last weekend... As I said... (where's the RAID?? Adaptec? You must be kidding) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: serial port speed
On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:23:03 +1000, Lawrence wrote: Anyone knows the default serail port speed? It is 38,400bps? Which file responsible for this setting? I want to increase it to 115,200bps. 38.4K, yes, /etc/rc.boot/0setserial, use the spd_vhi option. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Multiple ethernets
On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:48:48 -0600, Mike Patterson wrote: I added the line: append = ether=0,320,eth1 Try telling it the IRQ. Maybe they are too 'close'. Move it to a higher IO port. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
RE: Multiple network cards. ARGH! Double ARGH! ;-)
On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:06:17 +, Paulo Almeida wrote: Hi Mike! I have faced the same problem but with 3Com cards. There is only one solution for this problem: use 2 different network cards. There is somekind of bug in debian, I think, because it just doesn't support 2 or more same network cards sharing the same driver. It doesn't even allow you to install one copy of the driver for each network card. My dual 3c900s work fine (considering the state of the vortex driver) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: How many modems ?
On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:49:22 -0400, Jason Costomiris wrote: On Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 03:05:35AM -0500, Dave Cinege wrote: : Do yourself a favor, if you want a terminal server, buy a terminal server. : : If you need a good number of modems, pick up a used Livingston PM2 or : PM2e. If you need to support a large userbase, consider a PM3 : or an Ascend Max. : : Why? My linux RADIUS termserver works great. Runs solid state out of ram, : boots off a floppy. (Or a flashram card if thats what you wanna use) Linux isn't exactly optimized for use as a terminal server... I'd rather concentrate on QoS, instead of concentrating on the cheapest solution around. It's not even really that much cheaper. Consider what it costs to build... Linux Server [1] - $3000 Cyclades 48 Port [2] - $3402 48 Modems ($125 * 48) - $6000 Another Linux Server[3]- $2000 - Total $14402 I would be happy to sell as many 48port termservers that you want for $1800 each. That's a far cry from $5400. I'm a hardware dealer, but I'm sure if you did enough work you could build something yourself for close to this price (or even less). Hey I'll even give you a 48 stack of nice little multitech modems (what I use myself) for $5520. ($115, tiny, connect speed leds, made in the USA, 10 year warranty) I'm not joking eitheryou can hold me to these prices. You'll not find me openly offering these items yet, only because the router project has a little ways to go before it it is usable by non-linux admins. (The shell and web config utils are coming soon) Livingston PM3 w/50 Modems $11800 Linux Server [4] -$2000 -- Total $13800 Oops, the digital solution (i.e. the PM3) is cheaper. Here in Bell Atlantic-land, PRI's cost $435 a month. Livingston has support for NFAS coming shortly, so you can use 47 B channels over a pair of PRI's. You also have 3 hot spares in the PortMaster. Take a look at what the POTS lines cost you with the Linux+Cyclades solution, and you'll see that it's not worth it, since with PRI, you can also provide ISDN services. There are PRI solutions for linux right now, but nothing for K56. (that, I've found) I do expect to see such a solution for K56 over PRI and BRI within the next few months. As an added bonus, the PM3 is a nice, small rack mountable unit. That Linux solution would be a monstrosity of cables, power strips, and home-grown racks to keep the modems from falling all over themselves. Probably a fire hazard too. Is it worth $5500+ to you to not go out and buy some zip ties? Granted you are not going to find a cleaner set-up then the PM3 right now, but that is only because of their propritary digital modem pool cards. Once an ISA/PCI hardware solution is out for that, this argument is dead. You are also dealing with the same thing if you go with a PM and an external modem setup. That reminds meanother reason I use those multitechs is they take +9VDC. When I get enough I'll just get one (or several for redunancy) big power supplies. If there is enough demand I'll offer such a solution to my customers. As for the case, any minitower will work just fine. For what I build I use a case that is as wide at a baby motherboard and about 8 inches high. It's smaller then a PM. Linux is a wonderful OS. It's great at being a server for numerous applications, including classic Internet related services, as well as file print (Samba and Netatalk), databases (mSQL, MySQL, Flagship, others), workstation applications (CAD, software dev), and network management (scotty + tkined, SNMP, sniffit, tcpdump). It *can* also be used as a router or a terminal server. However, it certainly does not excel at either task. Not if you haven't done your homework ; [1] A studly enough box to support 48 modems. Depends on dump or smart serial board. Smart, 486 66 should be comfortable, dumb, pentium class...maybe 100. 16MB should be OK. With the price of memory it won't kill you to throw in 32 either. [2] According to the Cyclades web site [3] You'll need another one to handle mail, web, dns, etc... You always need that. [4] As advertised recently in the isp-services mailing list. Anything you could build and sell for $2K I wouldn't classify as a server. : P - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Backup with DAT SCSI tapes
On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:27:51 -0700 (PDT), Oz Dror wrote: Hi, I am having problems using taper as the backup program for my DAT SCSI tape. It seems that taper cannot handle the large amount of data. it generates very large info files and then crushes. Incremental backup is also not working well. I have tried the hamm and bo version of taper. Is there any other GOOD stable backup program that can work with SCSI DAT tapes? tar - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: debian-disent
On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:45:44 +0200, Martin Str|mberg wrote: I remember a message saying that a new list debian-disent had been formed. Is that list archived somewhere, like the other debian lists at http://www.debian.org/Lists-Archives/? http://www.psychosis.com/listarch/debian-dissent - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: How many modems ?
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:30:27 -0400, Jason Costomiris wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 1997 at 02:09:29AM +0200, dada wrote: : How many modems can attach to my computer controlled by linux? I don't know about a theoretical maximum, however, I've seen people comfortably use 16 or 32, using multiport serial cards. However, this smells like you're going to use the box as a terminal server. Do yourself a favor, if you want a terminal server, buy a terminal server. If you need a good number of modems, pick up a used Livingston PM2 or PM2e. If you need to support a large userbase, consider a PM3 or an Ascend Max. Why? My linux RADIUS termserver works great. Runs solid state out of ram, boots off a floppy. (Or a flashram card if thats what you wanna use) Linux Router Project -- - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Incoming PPP question - subnetting
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:36:01 -0500, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote: Kevin Traas wrote: Hmmm. What's the netmask on the ethernet interface? If it's set to 255.255.255.224 then everything should work fine even though Yes, it is. Then NT's routing algorithm is wrong or there are other routes afoot. Run netstat -r on the NT box to verify that the routes to the ethernet interface have 255.255.255.224 as the netmask. the NT box sets 255.255.255.0 on the PPP link. This is because the routing algorithm chooses the route with the most matching bits (that is, the one with the longest netmask). Let me know. Interesting thought. I'll give this a try. I've got things working right now by setting up the PPP connection and then manually setting routes on each end. However, if I can automate this, that would be great. With your msg above, I may not have to make any changes on the NT dialin box/router. I'll let you know. On this subject, though Right now, the NT box dials into the modem pool via PPP. Is there any way I can have the Linux box (PPP server) setup a static route to the NT subnet at the time the NT box dials in? (I could set up a script running in the background with a sleep 60 or so that looks to see who's logged in and configures the routing table based on that, but this would be quite a hack - there's got to be a better way) Sure, you can give pppd the path to an ip-up and an ip-down script which will be called when the connection comes up. A much cleaner way would be to run portslave, the RADIUS client. You will let you spec all of this on a per user and per port basis. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: cdda2wav - cannot that deice sgb
On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:08:38 +, Michael Legart wrote: Hi! I have a little problem getting cdda2wav to work... when i start the program, i'm just told that it cannot stat device sgb ... Because it can't. : Are you using it with ide or scsi cdrom? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: cdda2wav - cannot that deice sgb
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:50:21 +, Michael Legart wrote: Hi! Because it can't. : hahahahhah Are you using it with ide or scsi cdrom? ide ... I now have tryed -D /dev/hdd and that works ... well allmost! I get some errors when it running, but maybe thats because I have a 486 dx2-80. My cdrom is a e-ide 12X I just started playing with it Sunday night I duped some audio CDs for myself. In terms of yanking audio it seems it's more sensitive then data. (and I don't mean using just cdda2wav) Typically the CD's are beaten up more...their is actually a huge data loss when you play beaten up audio CD's but most of the time you don't even hear it. Some tracks I had several retries, some just failed. With another program it took me about 20 tries to yank a track from a CD that would play absolutly fine. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Linux Router Project - Initial beta release now available.
After much work I have just made the first beta available. It is dubbed a developers release, but it is very much a usable product for anyone that needs to build a router/terminal server now. (I'm using it in my equivalent to a Portmaster 2e) What has been made is a networking capable minimal root fs that fits on most any small boot medium. (including a 1.44mb floppy!) Once made the boot medium is self contained and upgradable, using a unique work around that allows us to keep the root fs in multpile tgz's instead of the typicial boot disk style of having a single, unmodifiable binary image. The base distribution for this release has been Debian 1.3.1.?, and I have managed to keep the full sysvinit and layout 99% Debian. Now that this base is done we will begin implententing snmp and web based configuration. The root already contains telnetd and tftpd support. (We could sure use more people...join the mailing list!) You can download the current beta via web or ftp: http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ ftp.psychosis.com /pub/linux-router/ - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Please recommend a quality 4GB hard drive
On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:41:28 -0400 (EDT), Tommy Lakofski wrote: Unfortunately, my experience is somewhat different -- I've had a Quantum Grand Prix 4.3GB die on me (dead spindle) after 10 months (and my office The Grand Prix was a well know peice of shit, and is no longer made. They replaced it with their Atlas line of drives which (the atlas II especially) have ran very very well. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Please recommend a quality 4GB hard drive
On 09 Sep 1997 15:07:41 -0700, Terrence Brannon wrote: The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted as well. We would like a SCSI 4GB hard disk to connect to our PC running Debian Linux 1.3. We may occassionally want to connect it to our Alpha's running Redhat Alpha 4.0. I've been using Quantums in everything I built in the last year or so. They have been running 100%. They seem to run a good deal cooler then other manufactures in the same class (IE an Atlas runs much cooler the a Seagate 'Cuda ) The other reason I've been using Quantum is the Warranty turn around. When my 2G 'Cuda died on me it was about 3 weeks before I got a new drive back from Seagate. Quantum has something like a 2 day turn. We want reliability first. Then cost second. Get a DPT HBA and run RAID 6 (0+1). Get 6 2G Fireball ST drives. Nominal capacity is 6GB, super redundant, and will blow the doors of a 10,000RPM cheetah. This is the extreme...some simplier RAID solutions should also work well for you. Gimme a call if you need someone to build it (a plug never hurts, right : ) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: www.linuxhq.com
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:31:49 +, Adrian Bridgett wrote: On Sep 08, Nils Rennebarth wrote On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Craig Sanders wrote: does anyone know what's happened to www.linuxhq.com? It appears to have moved to www.ecsnet.com, at least this is what altavista says. It's ping'able but http connections are refused for now. Don't know what's up there. It used to be at www.ecsnet.com before moving to www.linuxhq.com. Someone on the kernel mailing lists did a bit of investigation and it seems that ecsnet's nameservers are a bit messed up (the pages are still hosted there, they are just under a different name). My favourite WWW page, unaccessable :-( Anyone have an IP to access it with? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: WantWEB/Linux/IP Masquerading
On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 16:25:03 -0800, Adam Shand wrote: I'd stay away from sat until LEO stuff starts to come out.the latency is 500ms+ jumping out 33,000 miles. Yep... but from what I understand this is minimised by the two way connection. Commands (eg. FTP/HTTP 'get' commands) are sent over the modem link so latency is less of an issue. While I'm not sure about DirecPC in some of the systems they are also set up so that traffic where latency *is* important (eg. telnet and irc mostly) goes over the modem link. Traffic where latency isn't important (eg. web, ftp, news etc) come back over the satellite link. After all who cares if your download takes an extra half second to start. I hope you never expect to play online games like quake... - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: WantWEB/Linux/IP Masquerading
On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 14:49:37 -0800, Adam Shand wrote: I've been told that by using the miracles of IP masquerading, I can do this by purchasing a single connection for the server, and letting the remainder od the machines leach off it in some way. Yep this is very possible and not all that hard to do. If you don't already know about this sorta thing you will want to investigate information on routing, linux masquerading and proxy/cache servers. I'm running this right now. My server handles mail, web, primary DNS, ftp, shell, and eveything else, while maqing a few machines and RADIUS client dial-u` termserver. Finally, one of the methods of connecting that looked interesting was something called WantWEB. The idea is that the downloads are VIA satellite, and very fast, but uploads had to go through a normal phone line and were limited to the 56K modems. Has anyone tried using this on a Linux box? if so, how successful were you? was the cable-modem device difficult to find drivers for? This has been done for a while by a company called DirecPC (http://www.direcpc.com I think). Remember though (just to be pedantic) that in this case there would be zero point in buying a 56k modem since the data transfer rates are asymetric. In other words with a 56k modem you get 56k downloads (which you don't care about because you have satellite speed :) but only 288/336 speeds to upload with. I'd stay away from sat until LEO stuff starts to come out.the latency is 500ms+ jumping out 33,000 miles. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: How to duplicate BOOT disk?
On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:33:42 +0200 (CEST), Remco Blaakmeer wrote: On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jimmy Lu wrote: I use BOOT disk to boot up my system. Now I want to duplicate the BOOT disk as a backup but I am having problem. I tried to mount BOOT disk in fd0 but it won't mount. I use: mount -t ext2 /dev/fd0 /mnt or mount -t msdos /dev/fd0 /mnt both cases won't work. Can someone tell me how to duplecate my BOOT disk? Thanks in advance. Jimmy Do (as some user that can write to /dev/fd0): insert boot disk dd if=/dev/fd0 of=tempfile eject boot disk insert empty but formatted disk dd if=tempfile of=/dev/fd0 That will make copy of the disk...to find out more about how the disk was made see syslinux in /usr/doc. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Radius
On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:15:20 -0500, Tony Koehn wrote: Merit Radius 2.4.23C Hmm then I can't help much since I never used that one. What are you're logs showning? Anything? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Who knows stuff about WAN cards?
On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:13:30 -0400 (EDT), Pete Templin wrote: Hi there!! I'm doing some network consulting for a computer store, and we'd like to connect the store LAN to the Internet through a 56k or T1 connection. If possible, we'd like to save the expense of the router and perhaps the CSU/DSU if possible. I think I've seen some adds in network magazines for WAN cards. Are any of you using them? If so, can you tell me about driver compatibility? Does it replace the CSU/DSU, or did you still have to rent/buy one? What sort of interface options did you have to select from (I've heard that different telco boxes have different interface types)? Check out http://www.sangoma.com/ I've heard good things about the wanpipe. As for an internal CSU/DSU I consider it good practice to leave that as an external modular component. www.bat.com seems to have good prices. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Radius
On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:09:00 -0500, Tony Koehn wrote: I am looking for someone who can tell me how I go about setting up radiusd. I need to see how I get it to get its info from another server?? Which one? Linvingston, Merit, or Cistron? The Cistronis not yet an 'officailly' available deb package, but was VERY easy to set-up by hand. Worked first time for me... - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: SCSI Host Adapter
On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:27:41 -0700 (PDT), Steve Witt wrote: I'm hoping that someone with some SCSI experience can give me some advice here. Look no further...you may accept my recommandation as the word of god. Buy a DPT. If a DPT is too expensive, buy a Buslogic. End of choices. (Don't buy adaptec) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Radius
On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:21:26 -0500, Tony Koehn wrote: My TS is a Computone Powerack OK, but what version of a SERVER are you trying to setting up on your linux box? The 3 I know of for Linux (2 debian are paks) are livingston, merit, and cistron. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: ppp connection
On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:22:59 -0400 (EDT), Paul Miller wrote: I have a cable modem that goes down once and awhile and I want to be able to dialup when it is down. I have a ppp-on script setup and I can connect (ppp0 is listing when I type ifconfig).. unfortchantly I can't do anything through that interface -- not even ping; I guess it is only using eth0.. How can I fix this? Change your default route to use ppp0. Your network settings will also have to change accordingly. You really need some sort of daemon to handle this properly. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Building Debian Packages
On 02 Sep 1997 03:21:39 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, George == George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: George I am getting a bit frustrated here in locating the George documentation that I need to learn to build debian packages. Umm, would debian-devel be a better place for this topic? Umm isn't that a private list? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Building Debian Packages
On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:49:36 -0400 (EDT), Alex Yukhimets wrote: George I am getting a bit frustrated here in locating the George documentation that I need to learn to build debian packages. Umm, would debian-devel be a better place for this topic? Umm isn't that a private list? NO! It is as free as debian-user. Then why is it not listed on www.debian.org? There are a couple of public mailing lists for all Debian users, together with several lists intended for developers only. The public lists are: debian-devel is not listed. I think this leads one to believe it's private. (I thought so, and never bothered to try to get on) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Which PGP should I get?
On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:46:50 -0400, Gonzalo A. Diethelm wrote: Should I get pgp-us or pgp-i? I'm living in Chile, if that makes any difference. Which ever one your government says you can't use. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Qpopper ?
On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:08:37 +, Michael Legart wrote: Hi ! Just wondering if I can use the qpopper package, that comes with Debian 1.3, to make a pop3 mail server ? If so ... how do I configure it ? I have it installed, but I can't seem to find out how to create accounts etc. adduser (Maybe I'm missing somthing?) Also ... the ftpd package ... is it a ftp server ? I also have that one installed, but if i try to connect with a ftp-program (*not* as root, but as a user), I just get the message, that the remote host have closed connection, because the service isn't available. Hmm this should not be. Do a 'ps aux' do you see /usr/sbin/inetd running? Can you telnet in? Can you ftp to yourself? (myhost$ ftp myhost) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: 3C509B ISA Detection
On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:29:53 -0700 (MST), Darin D. wrote:
Here, no problems with a 3C509B. I disabled pnp and set the irq to 5
(for arbitrary reasons.)
What do you get from `cat /proc/{interrupts,io}` ?
I have tried different irq's and addresses and all of them have been clear
of anything in cat /proc/interrupts ioports. I am now going to remove
my sound card and try it.
Doesn't the mca in these messages refer to the IBM MCA bus standard?
Wouldn't that interfere with the VLB bus tou say you have?
That's the I thought as well but I know I chose N when this option came
up when building a new kernel. I've done this multiple times as well.
I guess you probed with irq and io parameters and without (to
autodetect)?
Yes, I tried it both ways.
OK, have you set the IRQ you set on the card, as legacy ISA in your BIOS, as
opposed to a PNP device? If you have auto config turned on, shut it off and set
this manually. Plug and Pray is not a joke reference to PnP.
I used a 3c509 for the longest time in my router. IRQ 10, IO 300.
All I did was set this and turn pnp off with the msdos config util (something
like
3c509cfg.exe on the util disk)
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Re: Qpopper ?
On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:29:24 +, Michael Legart wrote: Hmm this should not be. Do a 'ps aux' do you see /usr/sbin/inetd running? Can you telnet in? Can you ftp to yourself? (myhost$ ftp myhost) Yep ... inetd *is* runnning, *and* ftpd *is* configurared, but it still won't work. Is ftpd listed correctly in /etc/initd.conf? If the system is very new (nothing yet really customized or busy) you can safely force the removal of netbase, and then reinstall it. (ie dpkg --purge --force-depends netbase) Last resort you can install wu-ftp and see if that works. (You will probably want that anyhow if this in a net server) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Current qpopper compatible with qmail? (~/Mailbox)
I'm moving to qmail from smail. I can't get qpopper working. What I can find in the qmail docs says qpopper 2.2 needs a recompile to work with ~/Mailbox. Is the current version compatible in anyway, or do I need to grab the source? What about cucipop? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Need pppd/PAP guru!
Also you may need the following in /etc/ppp/options: # force pppd to use your ISP user name as your 'host name' during the # PAP/CHAP authentication process name dcinege.! (with you user name) And if you experence machine gun redialing, comment out: lcp-echo-interval 30 lcp-echo-failure 4 With both my Zyxels the LCP answers from my ISP, would not be acknowledged. I spoke with a BitSurfer Pro that had the same problem. No one has been able to come up with a reason why. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: ide for java?
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:28:37 -0700, Jim Pick wrote: hi is there any Java IDE interface to Linux? warnning: I'm loocking for an IDE diferent as JAVA WORKSHOP. You might try Vibe from Visix (www.visix.com). I've never tried it, but it is available for Linux. There is also the FreeBuilder project: http://www.techno-link.com/clients/ivo/FreeBuilder But it's early on in development, and not all that useable yet (I think). Some people might consider emacs an IDE, but it's probably not what you want. If you plan on doing Java development inside an IDE, there is a much better selection available on Windows 95/NT. Big players like Microsoft, Borland and Symantec are content to ignore Linux. Java hasn't really lived up to the cross-platform hype as far as IDE's are concerned. I've seen some nice one's (including GUI builders) but nothing (when I tried it) that was really complete. Gamelan has loads of stuff: http://java.developer.com/ I remember this one as being really nice, but not quite 'done'. (But that was months ago) http://www.xelfi.cz/ - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
New mailing list: debian-dissent
A new mailing list has been formed to function as an arena for discussions about changing the current Debian (non technical) structure and function. General discussion topicality about the Debian project is: reorganization restructuring splitting or branching purpose and ethics surrounding such alerts to breach of policy, ethics, or 'secret' actions It is a public avenue to discuss such things and if need be point fingers without fear of being censored or removed from the list. To join or leave, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with subscribe or unsubscribe in the title. To post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Full uncensored archives are available at: http://www.psychosis.com/listarch/debian-dissent/ - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Expelling David Cinege from the list
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:19:59 -0800 (AKDT), Britton wrote: to *purchase* software. Do you *really* want an operating system developed by people like *this* to control your mission-critical computing needs, Mr. Computer User? My guess is Englesh (heh) is this guys second language. I had been up 20+ hours when I got involved in this. I think you will find my more recent posts much more legable (though I still can't spell worth a damn) now that I am awake... The compiler certainly doesn't complain much about my code : Do you even know ten words from any other than yours? Anyway, picking on spelling and poor typing is pretty pathetic. Yes it is. Who cares if he mispells some of our more screwy words? Not me, I do it too and I've got lots of other stuff to do with my time than worry about spelling. If you want to take MS on with perfect spelling, grammer, and pretty boxes, better think about hiring a team of editors and graphic artists. I'm sure they have. His points, for those who impatiently deleted the first two dozen messages in this thread before becoming curious, were: 1. Incorporating Debian is bad. I bet 99% of readers disagree with him, and his own opinion may by this time have undergone mortification. There are several good reasons for doing this. The two major reasons stem from our particular tax system and legal trend, and he may not have been familliar with them. I have studied a very good deal of 'law' quite extensively, and is one of the reasons I hate it so much. The creation of Debian Inc, has CREATED a liability where there was none. It offers protection to few if not only one person in the Debian project. I've gone over this point in more detail in other posts, and would dare someone to prove me wrong. The tax issue is a farce. The points I've made about the problems created by Debian Inc. far out weigh any tax deducatable income potential. 2. Changing the version numbering is bad. He's right about this. There was no reason to do it, and it looks like a pacification move toward vendors that functions by decieving (or at least misleading) end users. This is in direct conflict with Debian's official policy of 'not hiding problems'. At least one CD vendor has already agreed with him on this in this thread. It's not just that. I really do like the x.x.x way of numbering. It's linux-centric and IMHO the right way to do it. But I can live with something else. What I can not deal with is making modifications to a frozen revision, and not changing the rev number. (especially just to make some CD maker happy) This has been my (violent) argument over the last few days. I think most people have been missing it, and think I'm just going crazy because it's going to be called 1.3 R2 instead of 1.3.2. This is not the case. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Prompt in Bash
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:32:35 -0300 (EST), Daniel Doro Ferrante wrote: Hi All ! Does anybody know how do I change colors in a bash prompt. I can do it in tcsh, but no succes with bash... (even after reading the man). #b/w prompt #PS1=\\h\\$ \\u [\\w] #Pretty color prompt. Comment it out if your terminal doesn't support ANSI co #We must encase the ANSI codes in \[ and \] or else bash will have line lengt #problems. \e is a pretty form of the raw escape sequence PS1=\\[\\e[1;31m\\]\\h\\[\\e[0m\\]\\$ \\u [\\[\\e[1;34m\\]\\w\\[\\e[0m\\]] - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Release naming ...
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 20:42:21 -0400 (EDT), Richard G. Roberto wrote: A while ago I posted my feelings on this to Debian private, but it was _very_ ill received at the time. I'll restate it now. Commercial products do not rename their OS every time there's a bug fix! Then it's settled! Debian is not a commerial product and niether is Linux. Any reasons for acting more like one should simply be disreguarded... - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: shielding from liability
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:15:52 -0500, Paul Serice wrote: Suppose, Bruce is going to drive tomorrow to Santa Cruz (from Berkeley) to participate in a meeting for Debian, and on the way he causes an accident. Before incorporation, no one knew how far the liability tail extended. (For example, the accident occurs in a state that doesn't require a joint venture to have a pecuniary purpose.) The attorney for the opposition would risk malpractice unless he joined as defendants everyone remotely associated with the project who would be subject to the personal jurisdiction of the court -- which is generally anyone having minimum contacts with the state and, arguably, this includes just about everyone involved in the project. Maybe it's time you come back to real.world. Before the corporation anything that happned to bruce happened to bruce. Debian was nothing a buch of guys on the internet WITH NO FORMAL AFFILIATION. In the example above it would be the same as if Bruce decided to visit his friend, hit someone, and then his friend got sued because he knows bruce. Now their is a Debian Inc. to sue. Great now they CAN pull us all in and put US opperation of the project in jeopardy. It was a BAD move. By the way, last time I checked, in all 50 states, anarchists have no special exemptions. Those that chose to live outside special privleges and protections of the state most certainly do. BTW, when's the last time you sat down and read some statues from your state? (Or all 50 as you claim?) - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
My final words on Debian Inc.
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:21:26 -0500, Paul Serice wrote: Yes you have. I'm saying the work done be the people outside the US is now asscoiated with a US entity. It's not 'theirs' anymore, while it is in the US. O.k., I think I see where you're coming from. That's just not the way it works! First, those folks freely associate their work with Debian. But up until Debian Inc. their was no legal thing called Debian to assiciate with! Second, their work is still theirs unless and until they assign the copyright to, for example, Debian -- which I understand is not done. Exactly. So no they have a direct link to this Debian 'person' even though the product, and liabity remains theirs. Until the copyright is assigned, they get the same international protection as any other copyright holder, and the work is still theirs. As an anarchist, surely you understand that all property is a creature of the state that creates and recognizes it. As an anarco-capitalist (minarchist if you wanna get technical) I understand the state does not inherently own everything. In fact it owns nothing. (No matter what it may think) Thus, either before or after incorporation, the only reason their work is still theirs inside the United States is because the U.S. recognizes and is willing to enforce their rights. A governments willingness to do or not do something does not change the factual base of the situation. It is theirs because all human beings are born upon this earth with an irrevocable right their own property. So, even if you are right, being associated with a US entity in the US is likely to give rise to more property rights, not fewer. Homey don't play that. They can be sued through Debian Inc, where as before the US or any state would have a difficult time assertaining jurisdiction. In an example you may find more appeling Debian Inc could be sued because of something a foriegn developer has done. What I'm trying to tell you is that anarchy requires the abolition of personal property, and for you to care one way or the other about such property is, well, hypocritical. Perhaps you're actually a nihilist. That is anarcho-socialism, and as far as I'm concern damn stupid. How you can enforce complete communual living and be without government is assinine. That is a utopic theory for people that don't want to deal with reality. Even though you've heard me mention the term, I don't believe in collectism. (certainly not if it is forced) But what Debian IS, is a communal project that is 'owned' (if you can consider it property) by the developers as a whole. What we now have is a legal person called Debian, that has no place in a project like this. It goes against the Debian principal. By Bruces actions it is becoming more commercialized, and the corp is just a vehicle for that. If you want a commercial distribution, go to Redhat etc. I'm with Debian because of it's supposed openness, and non-commercialism. I'm not anti commercialism! I own my own damn business for god stakes! But THAT IS NOT WHAT DEBIAN IS ABOUT. If you would like to take this anarchy discussion off the list, I'll be happy to oblige. I mentioned my politics not to start a discussion about them but to make a point, that some of us have moral objections based on where Debian is now heading, and as a collectivly 'owned' free project they should definatly be considered. Not because they are mine, and I am special, but becasue they fall inline with the original Debian philosphy. If I make a package tonight, and submited it, am I then consider an employee (agent, memeber, whatever) of that corp? O.k., this is the right question. No, and therefor it means nothing to my liability. But, this is the wrong answer. Here's a hint, when you are dealing with legal problems, the answer is almost always, Well, it depends. No attorney is going to be bullied away from a lawsuit by your ipse dixit that you have no liability especially when perfectly good theories exist for making you pay, e.g., under partnership law, as a joint venture, or under some other theory relating to purely social organization about which I know nothing. Never mind the good theories. What about the bad ones that succeed. For example, now, (unless things have changed) they can get abortion protestors under RICO -- a federal racketerring law. You just never know. It's hard for any attorney in the planning stages to anticipate such a theory. So your very valid point is that the law bascilly is whatever the prosicutor decides it is for the day. That's my point also. Anything is possible in this very screwed up country. But the creation of a legal entity and can make this worse in our situation. If I honestly thought that Deiban Inc could serve a valid purpose I would bregrudingly agree. But it does not. Actually, if you made a package tonight, it wouldn't matter because the corporation would shield you from liability. Why is the
Re: Debian only like larger businesses
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:15:00 +0200, Joost Kooij wrote: I find it very hard to believe that Bruce is acting on himself. I firmly believe that his decisions are based upon serious discussions between many No developer has yet to post that the new 'policy' of backlogging rev numbers was discussed and decided on the devel list. developers. At least, that is what the outcome of most discussions point at: many people agree with the decisions made and they appear to have solid arguments in most cases. Not in this case. It is pretty ridiculous to just finger-point at Bruce. Partly because it disregards his efforts, but mostly because it disregards Debian and the way it happens to work. If Debian is truly a non-profit organization, then why not put the articles of incorporation on the website immediately. It just isn't ethical to ask for donations without showing the public how the organization is controlled, how officers and directors are elected and exactly what the outlook is for changing the leadership should problems arise. If you had brought your points in a more considered tone, people might actually agree with you on some of these points. If you, or these people you mention are so brain-damaged that they can't agree with something soley on it's merits but instead disagree soley and the way it was mentioned, then their opinion doesn't count very much for me. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: shielding from liability
On Fri, 22 Aug 97 20:48 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It may not. An employee is working under the supervision of the corporation: he's just following orders. The corporation is presumed to be checking his work, so if his screwups get out it is held liable. Can you argue that the maintainers are acting under your control and supervision? Yes. These people have been delegated a specific set of programs to work on by an staff member I appointed. Their job is to act on behalf of the corporation in maintaining those programs, which are provided to them by third parties not associated with Debian in most cases. This won't even make it past the court room door. Some of the maintainers do assign copyrights to SPI. If necessary I can start documenting in a more formal way that these people are following the orders of a director of the corporation, and even give them contracts. We also have an employer ID if it is necessary to go that far. It's important to note that the corporation distributes the software, not the individuals. No matter how much you seem to like the idea, the corporation does not distribute Debian. It makes the entirty of the packages available. I'm sure the packages are also indivigually made available via the maintainers. I was arguing that there is no contract and therefore no duty. I don't know of any case law on that, though. There is at least an implicit contract when we give them access to our internal systems to perform work for us. We could make it explicit. There is also some new law on liability of volunteers this year. Its major thrust was to remove liability from emergency services volunteers, such as radio hams who are providing communications in a disaster situation. I don't know how it effects other sorts of volunteers. Does SPI have an attorney? Have you discussed these issues with her? Yes, and the attorney formed the corporation for us. The main reason for forming the corporation was so that we could pursue grants to work on free software, not to protect us from liability. I will ask the attorney to make suggestions on how we can firm up liability protection for the members. You've made the point even more clear, Bruce. In order to provide the legal protection Debian Inc. is claiming it can you must move everything towards a strict commercial type enviorment. Debian, a *free* software distribution, and Debian Inc. can never be one in the same. If you want to have SPI, to have tax exempt status, and get grants, and distribute cd roms, have SPI do it as SPI, and not as Debian! - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian only like larger businesses
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 08:48:30 -0700 (PDT), George Bonser wrote: Sorry, Bruce, but this is baloney! I have private email from you on both occasions when the archive changed without a release number change. The first time you said it was bad release engineering and would look into it. The second time you finally admitted that other CD vendors objected to changing the release number. What it boils down to is that you let the vendors tell you how to run the project! Where did these idiots suddenly come from? I was in the cross post on this, and read it. Paul, why don't you post that mail publicly? I think it's about time. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Anarchy! Yes, Anarchy!
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:34:41 +0200 (MET DST), E.L. Meijer \(Eric\) wrote: This is why there have ben how many changes to 1.3.1, and it's still called 1.3.1? That is an error you can criticize. It was not done on purpose, and therefore you cannot claim it is a severe flaw in the policy. Maybe you should talk to Bruce about it. I've seen him email regarding the issue, and not only was it intensional, but it seems to be the way things will be done from now on. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian only like larger businesses
On 22 Aug 1997 12:03:43 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, For the record: The official CD is not an independent action on part of Bruce Perenes, all the developers (which is another way of saying Debian) decided that it was a Good Thing. I am getting tired of people singling out Bruce for their ranting, and annoyed at people who have not made an iota of contribution to the project trying to impose their will on the peole who do the work and spreading FUD. But it was not simply made availble for use. Bruce made 'official' copies and sold them under the 'official' title. Now, is Debian a commercial company or not?!?! - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: shielding from liability
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:57:29 -0500, Paul Serice wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Serice writes: Suppose, Bruce is going to drive tomorrow to Santa Cruz (from Berkeley) to participate in a meeting for Debian, and on the way he causes an accident. Before incorporation, no one knew how far the liability tail extended. Are you an attorney? I'm not. I find it hard to believe that there is no case law on this. I'm looking here through Prosser on Torts regarding the Joint Enterprise. It states as follows: As Barron's contains no defination we look to Webster (as a court would): Main Entry: enúterúprise Pronunciation: 'en-t(r)-prIz Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Old French entreprendre to undertake, from entre- inter- + prendre to take -- more at PRIZE Date: 15th century 1 : a project or undertaking that is especially difficult, complicated, or risky 2 : readiness to engage in daring action : INITIATIVE 3 a : a unit of economic organization or activity; especially : a business organization b : a systematic purposeful activity agriculture is the main economic enterprise among these people Show me the risk of a free venture. Show me the business orginazation, before Debian Inc. was formed. Show me the money! There was none before, and that was why what you just quoted would never have applied to the Debian maintainers. They had no collective assests! Now it's arguable they do. **NOW** it's an enterprise. NOW they have liabity extended to all of them. Prosser then makes a distinction between business and non-business joint enterprises. Two cases it cites found enterprise liability for members of a hunting party and for people involved with dismantling a sawmill. I'm out of my depth here, but based on the above, it's arguable that, prior to incorporation, Debian could have been classified as some type of joint enterprise. You're kidding right? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:12:48 CDT, Rick Hawkins wrote: Dave Cinege wrote, Yes you have. I'm saying the work done be the people outside the US is now asscoiated with a US entity. It's not 'theirs' anymore, while it is in the US. this is not true, in any sense of the word. The difference between debian unincorporated or incorporated makes absolutley no difference in ownership, at least in the common law countries (US, britain, australia, etc.). If I make a package tonight, and submited it, am I then consider an employee (agent, memeber, whatever) of that corp? No, and therefor it means nothing to my liability. But since there is now a legal person called Debian we could both be brought into litigation. Before if someone did something, it was just them. To do anything to Debian meant going after all the seperate people involved. That's because no guy named Debian existednow he does Again, this is completely wrong. There was no protection from the absense of a debian the person. It would *not* have required going after all of the separate people involved. No you are wrong, and I firmly hold by my opinion. Unless you can provide me case law otherwise, you are the one with the opinion on shakey ground. An informal group of guys, that have no assests, makes no profit, makes no sellable product, and takes no risk, in no way can be considered a business, enterprise, joint venture et al. Can't happen! And that's what the law would require for anything to follow back to the 'members' (which there are no members cause in legal terms it did not exist) It would have been going after any single one, or any group, which was convenient. Each of whom would have been liable in the full amount of any judgment. If you make a package, you still face liability under either setup. However, incorporated you face no liability for my packages. That is the difference. You now have it bassackwards. Where as before it could not be followed back, be cause of no official assiciation, now with the advent of Debian Inc. it can. Now if we were all covered by the corporation, you would be correct, but currently we are not. What is would take to cover us all is a re structing of Debian in such a way that it becomes a commercial type (though not for profit) orginazation. (then you really need to worry about being sued) So guys make the Decision. Debian or Debian Inc.? We can't have both. If anything is done to this guy, the work the developers are 'giving' him are subject to any sanctions against him. Follow? It has created a liabity. again, this is wrong. see above. Also, developers do not give anything to debian; they license. They still own their packages. More of a reason they are not protected. What members? Debian never existed. There was no formal orginazation. No solid heiarchy. No dues. Again, this just doesn't matter. Debian did indeed exist, and did indeed have members, whether formally organized or not. It certainly does matter. You can't sue something that doesn't legally exist. The members themselves could be sued, but as I pointed out for it to follow back to all of them, it would have to be show that this group of guys the release software free to the internet, are a formal orginazation. If this is not the case then you can follow something back for anything. By your logic, if I write a peice of code for the linux kernel, and it turns out a kernel gets out with a virus and starts a suit, I can get sued even if I had no part in that code. Can't happen. Won't make it into court. There's simply no affilation. (Especially since it is released as source only) And please spare me the Well hey after you spend $$$ to prove it argument. That is our fucked up, sue happy, everyone owes me something society. Having the corp won't stop that. Even if the corporation in it's current state did provide full protectsion, it wouldn't stop someone from filing suit, and costing that indivigual out of pocket until they proved it was frivolous. (Unless Debian Inc. will start providing lawyers fees. With what money I have no idea) yes. Then they are each indivigually liable no matter what. They are. The corp just now officially puts them all in the same basket. this is where you are wrong. It is exactly the opposite: the corp takes them *out* of the basket. NOT the way it is set up now. You're working in generic terms, instead of the current state of things. Is there a Debian Inc? Yes. Do all the deb devs have some sort of formal (legally arguable) link to it now. Yes. Are they all part of it?(ie directly covered) No. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL
Re: Dave Cinege and Paul Wade
On Fri, 22 Aug 97 21:49 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: I sent this message to Dave Cinege and Paul Wade yesterday. From bruce Fri Aug 22 00:39:12 1997 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: you and debian-user Reply-To: Bruce Perens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Paul and Dave, When I return from the i386 ABI meeting tomorrow, I would like to see users help postings on debian-user, not your whining. I have been incredibly tolerant today considering what ungracious assholes you have both been. Debian does not need either of you or your projects. Do not ever expect any help from me of any kind again. You've blown that, and forever. Bruce Perens -- As you can see, Dave hasn't removed his sorry excuse for dialog from debian-user. What do you suggest I do, guys? You are turning this into a completly personal thing Bruce, where it started out as just a generic complaint. Its obvious to me why, because you are directly responcible for what I'm complaining about, but playing games like this is only going to escalate things... You do not own Debian, Bruce. It is not your determination what people Debian needs, and what projects Debian will allow. Debian is GPL, not a company headed by Jesus H Perens, though with how your actions of late have been I think you may well have forgotten this. I'm not spamming the list, and it takes more then 1 person to have a thread; others are obviously interested in what is being discussed. Just because you don't like the topic is TOO BAD!! Since there is not a more approprate list for this, I will continue to post as I see fit on this topic. If you throw your proverbeal weight to have me bumped I'll just keep resubscibing under different accounts. I'm not going let some punk push me around just because he claims some title to do so. I don't allow it in real.life and I'm not going to allow it with a *supposedly* free software project that I have come to dearly love. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:32:30 +0800, Dima wrote: OK Dave, here's a fresh one for you: remember LiGNUx? Here's what made him do that: Note that FSF is the same kind of corporation, a non-profit with a 501(c)3. And? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On 22 Aug 1997 13:41:07 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: If you do not think that the discussion came to a conclusion (BTW, Bruce did shift from his original proposal), then the proper forum is debian-devel. I did not see your s=comments there. Nobody is squashing dissent. All we are saying that that's the way the developers want it. If you disagree, shift over to debian-devel and we shall attempt for consensus. Please point me to the thread where Revision control was decided to be backlogged. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: SPI Debian incorporation
On 22 Aug 1997 12:24:04 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, Fire == Fire Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Fire I have to admit that I like 1.3.1 or 1.3.2 (or even 1.3.2.1) Fire better than 1.3.r1-fruit-files_your_mom.another-minor-change. The last bit is a wee bit of FUD. Fire Mainly, pick a numbering system -- *then_stick_with_it*. We have -- the next release shall be 1.3.1 r1, followed by 1.3.1 r2, and so on. There will be numbers on *all* releases. Some people are objecting to the format of the release numbering, is all. That's a lie. Don't talk for me, and smear this dicussion. I've made my objections clear. Release revisions should be fixed, and not have 10 different versions, with the same number on them. This is going on now. It's been made as if this 'policy' will continue, and solely because it will make some CD makers happier. This is the argument, and always has been. It is a serious one, and anyone that has not gotten this should go back and read the thread more throughly. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:12:59 -0400 (EDT), Dale Scheetz wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Dave Cinege wrote: It's not about .1 R1, or Asub1, to the 2nd power of 4. It's about something that is frozen, actully staying frozen. If the disc says 1.3.1, I should be able crccheck the whole damn thing against the master 1.3.1 dist, and have it come up clean. Right NOW you can't even do that, Not true! 1.3.1 is a fixed object, available as an Official image. It hasn't changed since its release, and, to the best of my knowledge, will not ever change. Bruce Perens: The next version of the system will be called Debian 1.3.1 Revision 1. People who make long-term products based on Debian requested that we not change the version number of the system if we were only making a few bug fixes. For example, X windows was rebuilt because Richard Stallman requested that XDM display Debian GNU/Linux rather than just Debian Linux. It's worthwhile to insert that change, but not worthwhile to make everyone think they need to upgrade their systems because of it. Thus, we will not bump the release number to 1.3.2 for minor changes. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On 21 Aug 1997 16:08:05 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: There are no fewer release. All releases are numbered (with revisions, not point versions). Technically, the two schemes are the same. Mr Cinege has escalated a percived, non-technical difference into a jihad. No I'm talking about the same revs conatining differences. Something that the developers are conviently ignoring. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:30:52 -0500, Paul Serice wrote: The government has always been involved. In general though, it is With the developers and servers in Germany? nl? The presence of developers and servers in Germany does not limit the ability of the American legal system to reach the developers in the U.S. So, yes, despite developers in Germany, the government is, and always has been, involved. Think of the loop-hole if all you had to do was set up an office in Germany to avoid U.S. jurisdiction over persons and things in the U.S. This is such an obvious response, I fear I'm missing your point though. Yes you have. I'm saying the work done be the people outside the US is now asscoiated with a US entity. It's not 'theirs' anymore, while it is in the US. state law, not federal, that controls, and (if I remember correctly) most states impose personal liability (as in they come and take away your house and car) for unorganized groups such as Debian was. They could have not followed anything past the guy that caused it. Now they can. With all due respect, I think you have it backwards. Now, the corporation protects not just those beyond the guy that caused the problem. It even protects that particular guy. If I make a package tonight, and submited it, am I then consider an employee (agent, memeber, whatever) of that corp? No, and therefor it means nothing to my liability. But since there is now a legal person called Debian we could both be brought into litigation. Before if someone did something, it was just them. To do anything to Debian meant going after all the seperate people involved. That's because no guy named Debian existednow he does If anything is done to this guy, the work the developers are 'giving' him are subject to any sanctions against him. Follow? It has created a liabity. Before though, in most states at least, anyone wronged by the unincorporated organization could have followed anything past the guy that caused it to all the other members. The other members only recourse would be against the guy who caused it; however, the members would still be liable directly to the injured party. What members? Debian never existed. There was no formal orginazation. No solid heiarchy. No dues. No finacial tranactions with the Debian name. (at least there should not have been) That's the way it works, and that's the way it should work. A group of people cannot avoid liability by refusing to incorporate, and as soon as the group does incorporate, the law kicks in and makes certain requirements of the corporation, e.g., that it not be undercapitalized, for the benefit of third parties who deal with the entity. Phooey. Do all the developers hold there own copyright? Huh? Do they? Then they are each indivigually liable no matter what. The corp just now officially puts them all in the same basket. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: writing off the value of services donated
On Thu, 21 Aug 97 13:28 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: Dave Cinege: Do you think the IRS will allow companies to write off the ftp bandwidth they donate? Yes, you can deduct the value of services donated to a 501(c)3 non-profit from your income for tax purposes. Not just FTP bandwidth, all sorts of services. I doubt that since it would already be written off for the business uses, it could then be deducted again. If you do your personal taxes on the long form, there's a place to fill in charitable mileage. Drive somewhere to work for Debian? Write it off. I don't pay the income tax. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:52:43 +0200, Ciccio wrote: If the orginization were not invloded in promotions, and makings CD-Rom, they could get back to simply working towards the orginazation of a quality product. Thats their purpose as far as I'm concerned, not worring about if CD makers can keep their stock up to date. AFAIK, people do _work_ on this _product_ in their free time. I don't feel to have any moral right to tell them, how they should spend it. When they are acting as the official Debian entity you do! - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Anarchy! Yes, Anarchy!
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:14:05 -0700 (PDT), George Bonser wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Mike Schmitz wrote: myself in alignment with David Cinege and Paul Wade. I do not think that _any_ decision should be made on business, marketing, or political reasons, Whatever the cost, ONLY quality of the code and distribution should be considered. I believe that only harm can come from asking any government's sanction of the project, and money can only corrupt it. I apologize if my opinion is not shared by the majority, but it is mine, and all are free to disagree. Oh, horsehockey. Bandwidth does not grow on trees. Neither do systems. It is impossible to plant a seed and grow a system, it takes money. If you can show that you are a non-profit organization, it provides incentive for people to assist your project IF they find it worthy of their support. That's not a universal concensus. To me it's a turn off. A financial break for a community to help itself is not a bad idea. I suspect you are more than a little paranoid. Anarchy only works when all parties think exactly alike which is oxymoronic to the term. That's foolish. Anarchy does work, because no man is ever given the upper hand in a conflict soley by his position. I'm not a socialistI've owned my own (non-corporate) business for over 8 years. I know what expenses are, about marketing, and about making money, and I have made money using Debian. I'd be a hipocrit if I said other people could not...except for this creature we call Debian. When I first started playing with deb, Debian was an idea. It was a bunch of files from a bunch of people, that made using linux better. The distribution existed by the sheer will of the people who built it. The ethic was that all work was done for free and released under GNU. A donation to 'debian' meant supporting the deveopers directly in some way, offering bandwidth, and contributing to the project. There were no direct bills to pay. The project could never fold unless the developers decided to just walk away. Then Debian suddenly had to get orginized, and become 'something'. It's now a company. It now wants money. It now has expensives. It now determines what is and is not 'official'. I don't like it. It was fine the way it was before. Sure, you can DREAM that such a system can flourish without money but if it becomes large enough (which Debian has), it starts to require real resources that only money can buy. Sure, you might be able to get the telephone company to donate a T1 ... if they can deduct it. Are you high? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Anarchy! Yes, Anarchy!
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:13:22 +0200 (MET DST), E.L. Meijer \(Eric\) wrote: Dave Cinege: A donation to 'debian' meant supporting the deveopers directly in some way, offering bandwidth, and contributing to the project. There were no direct bills to pay. The project could never fold unless the developers decided to just walk away. Then Debian suddenly had to get orginized, and become 'something'. It's now a company. It now wants money. It now has expensives. It now determines what is and is not 'official'. I don't like it. It was fine the way it was before. Yeah, it was fine to have a screwed up 1.0 version on InfoMagic, it was fine to see the last two versions on InfoMagic sets come out crippled and severely crippled respectively. NOT. And InfoMagic was the only way I could get a Debian distribution until recently. And the simple existence of the corp did not fix it! It seems to me that the people currently `venting their shit' on Debian cannot imagine what is good for an ordinary user like me who isn't able to download an entire distribution from the net and doesn't care about the latest minute patches. I appreciate a _stable_ distribution on CD-ROM that is easily available in my next door book shop. Therefore, the Official Debian CDRom is the best thing that recently happened to the Debian project. Bull. It puts other at odds with the 'officials' in the project. There is no reason someone couldn't have come up with this 'stable' release CD on their own. There is no reseason Bruce could not have done it, and offered it in his personal capacity. If Official Debian CD's will become widely available, that is a good thing as well, and if a new revision numbering scheme can help, it is in my interest and in the interest of the large group of users who want _access_ to a high quality distribution. If you buy a CD that says 1.3 on it you can't be sure what you're getting. Was that the 1.3 that had a bug with XX peice of hardware and couldn't install. Hiding things from the users is typical Microsoft, large company, marketing *tatics* They don't care if it runs, just that you buy the product. That's not right. Certainly not for a (supposedly) free software project. Listen, getting CD's out is a good thing. But: A) It is not right for Debian Inc, to have an official part in it. B) The distribution should not change to suite the needs of cookie cutters. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On 21 Aug 1997 23:28:31 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George Bonser writes: I think the idea is, you buy the 1.3 CDROM and pick up the revisions from the net. ... In this way, if a distribution goes defunct and is replaced, only the X.x-updates directory needs to be left around for people that might want to update a disk that is a couple of revs behind current. Excellent idea. Just add a script for the user to run to automatically update their installed packages and you've got a really slick system. If you have a net connection. If you are only working from one machine. Then it doesn't matter. If I have to s=do several machines I order an current rev CD-R. The problem is I can;t be sure exactly what I will be getting. Is it 1.3.1 R2 from this week, or from last week. What about next week? However, it was my understanding that the change from x.y.z to x.y revision z was purely cosmetic. Apparently not. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Version Numbers Was: Is this the Debian Philosophy? (or.... $#@!@#$ bash 2.0!)
On Wed, 20 Aug 97 12:52 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: How about a longer explanation on the list? I'm _SURE_ that _MANY_ inquiring minds would like to know. So, we want to make it clear that our CD, even if it is a revision or two behind, is still _current_ product in that you can easily hit our FTP site and update it to the latest and greatest. We are separating the release number from the revision number to emphasize this fact. Bruce, please don't do this. Thangs are already slacking in that bug fixes and updates have been made to 1.3.1 without and change in the minor number. Every version number should be frozen soild, even if it means we go all the way up to 1.3.199. This Microsoft style of reving, will kill the distribution. People are going to by a cd with a bug and forever be biased against a whole version of Debian. You're following the money and that is a bad thing. You should not be worried about getting Debian into the stores. You should be concerned about making the best product you can. I don't consider this a minor issue. The name itself I don't care about, it's our current version control system that's at stake. I don't think you should be making this desision (or should I say the larger CD makers making it for you) on you're own because it affects the entire way Debian releases and updates will be handled in the future. I'd like to see Debian.org get out of the CD business entirly. I'd also like to see all monitary contributions stop. I don't want to deal with an orginazation...I want to deal with the people that make the product. I should also mention I haven't heard a one of the CD-R makers ask for this. If it says 1.3 or 1.3.1 or whatever, at any time with any copy I should be able to do a crc check against what is in the master ftp server under that rev, and have it come up clean. End of story. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:28:10 -0400, Eloy A. Paris wrote: my company uses Debian very seriously so I think is very fair to help the project with donations. I have just bought 2 Official Debian 1.3.1 CD's from LSL and I chose the product that includes a 5 dollar donation to the Debian project. And since I am in such a pissed off mood over these version number let's start on these donations. Where do they go and what are they used for? I think Debian was doing just fine before it started to receive cash donations. What expenses does it have? Can you make your books public Bruce? The purpose behind the official incorporation for Debian is still beyand me, and the more I think about it I don't like it. The project (like linux) has always been for freeholders all over the world. Why the US government suddenly has to get involded, I have no idea. Why does Debian need to be an artificial US government privedged entiy? It's our OS. We collectivly own it. Why do we suddenly need permission from someone to exists I'm sure some of the other anarchists here are also wondering about these things - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:51:09 -0400 (EDT), Tim Sailer wrote: I think Debian was doing just fine before it started to receive cash donations. What expenses does it have? Can you make your books public Bruce? Check the donations page. It will show what has been collected. The only expense that we have incurred to this point has been the fees generated by the incorporation process, less than $600. Why was this incorporation necessary? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:57:33 +0200, Ciccio wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:51:09 -0400 (EDT), Tim Sailer wrote: I think Debian was doing just fine before it started to receive cash donations. What expenses What's going wrong now? I'm using debian quite heavily, and nobody asked me to pay, so I didn't. Why should I bother what happens to the money of other people? I don't know personally any of the mayor debian activists, but I like the work they do. So why should I think they're trying to do something less honorable? The new version naming scheme and control is based on politics and not technical reasons. If the orginization were not invloded in promotions, and makings CD-Rom, they could get back to simply working towards the orginazation of a quality product. Thats their purpose as far as I'm concerned, not worring about if CD makers can keep their stock up to date. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:33:41 -0400 (EDT), Tim Sailer wrote: One of the reasons is that when people make a donation, it could be tax deductable. Right now it is not. We have to get 501(c)3 status with the US IRS first. Why? Of what intestest is that to the people that don't live in the USA. How much in donations are to planning to work towards? Do you think the IRS will allow companies to write off the ftp bandwidth they donate? Hell no... I don't see the need. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:42:02 -0400, Behan Webster wrote: Dave Cinege wrote: On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:28:10 -0400, Eloy A. Paris wrote: my company uses Debian very seriously so I think is very fair to help the project with donations. I have just bought 2 Official Debian 1.3.1 CD's from LSL and I chose the product that includes a 5 dollar donation to the Debian project. And since I am in such a pissed off mood over these version number let's start on these donations. Where do they go and what are they used for? Personally, I'm glad to see Debian become a little more organized and getting incorporated. They didn't need to get incorpoated to become more orginized. The United States or any one of them has no interest in our international communal project. It means that Debian can start paying it's own bills instead of people like Bruce going out of pocket to pay for the internic domain fees. Then tell him to rep a few CD-R's out and not pander an 'official' CD to high volume leach cookie cutters. There are many little expenses that need to be paid, far more than either you or I can probably imagine. Organizing 200+ contributors is not an easy feat, especially with no budget. Bahh. It's part of our way of life. It's like saying my projects incur the cost of my internet accessit's something I would have anyway, and couldn't live without. If cost (besides in time) are getting noticly more then what he does for himself, it's time to bring in another person to help share the load. On top of that, not everyone can donate time or resourses, but they can contribute money. To who? Am I a part of Debian.org? Do I have a vote.even if I maintain 50 packages?? You'll seethe cash will lead to bills created by the corp, that in turn will create more bills, and there by creating a relience on direct finacial support. The point is you CAN'T just donate money to Debian. 'Debian' is the efforts of several hundred people; it's not a physical thing. Why not allow them to do such? It is their choice. Debian is not asking for donations, yet people send donations anyways. Why do you feel that this way of contributing to the project should be stopped? Whether you're donating time, resources, or cash, it all boils down to contributing money. No it does not. It would be hard to put a monetary figure on the badwidth donated by ftp sites. This is the only real need the Debian *developers* require. What this corpoation is doing, why it even is I still don't understand. It doesn't represent the people behind Debian. It doesn't offer them any protections. All it does is create an expense, where there was none. And that expense creates a desire to get money from the project, where there was none. Were you asked if you wanted the version control change? No, we we're told that it was going to be changed, and purely for the sake of appesment of the larger CD makers. Debian is not about profit. The orginizes should not be worrying about it how many cd's they get sent outit obviously is interfering with the technical aspects of the project. Personally I think you're blowing things way out of proportion simply because you can't have things your way. Venting this anger by trying to imply that donated money is somehow being mispent is just plain childish. Grow up. Sidetracking the issue insults my intellegence. Fuck you. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: incorporation
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:09:25 CDT, Rick Hawkins wrote: On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:28:10 -0400, Eloy A. Paris wrote: The purpose behind the official incorporation for Debian is still beyand me, and the more I think about it I don't like it. The project (like linux) has always been for freeholders all over the world. Why the US government suddenly has to get involded, I have no idea. Why does Debian need to be an artificial US government privedged entiy? It's our OS. We collectivly own it. Why do we suddenly need permission from someone to exists I'm sure some of the other anarchists here are also wondering about these things I had nothing to do with the decision or the incorporation, or any discussions, but as an attorney I'll stick my head in: Let me cover my throat 1) as someone already mentioned, it makes a difference for donations. Overall? No. Can we pretend that it does? Sure...that's what law is all about... 2) It has nothing to do with the US government. States grant corporate charters, not the feds No difference from a legal stand point, and you should already know his. An artifical entity as no natural rights, but only government granted privleges. The Feds can claim jurisdiction over it where they could (according to the US constitution) never set foot with a natural person Doesn't matter at what level is was created. 3) Liability. The corporation is legally a person. If someone got the bright idea to sue Debian (for whatever reason, including frivolous), individuals would be liable without incorporation. Incorporated, individual liability extends only to acts of that individual. Where as before it was just a concept (and concepts can't be sued) now debian is a thing that can be messed with. The exsitence of a 'Debian' posses a threat to the work of all the world around the world. And how does that cover a single developers? Are we all part of the corp (in writing)? The only people who have limited liabilities with Debian are direct employees and officiers of the corp. Not me. Not Ian Murdock over in the UK. Not any of the fine mainters in DE. Not even the people stuck in this god forsaken country. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:34:29 -0400 (EDT), Tim Sailer wrote: In your email to me, Dave Cinege, you wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:42:02 -0400, Behan Webster wrote: Personally I think you're blowing things way out of proportion simply because you can't have things your way. Venting this anger by trying to imply that donated money is somehow being mispent is just plain childish. Grow up. Sidetracking the issue insults my intellegence. Fuck you. Resorting to vulgarities on a public mailing list should get you bounced from the list. Like Behan said, grow up. Then fuck you too. Bounce me. Weld you're power to stifle my 'bad' speech. Dare you use your filter instead. Sic semper tyrannis! - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:19:55 -0400, Marc W. Brooks wrote: At 02:00 PM 8/21/97 -0400, Dave Cinege wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:33:41 -0400 (EDT), Tim Sailer wrote: One of the reasons is that when people make a donation, it could be tax deductable. Right now it is not. We have to get 501(c)3 status Why? Of what intestest is that to the people that don't live in the USA. How much in donations are to planning to work towards? Do you think the IRS will allow companies to write off the ftp bandwidth they donate? Hell no... I don't see the need. What about people who would like to donate with the tax write off? Why should that avenue be blocked because it won't help everyone involved? As long as it does not actually hinder people, what's wrong with adding benefits to those who donate. They don't have it yet. If they get it, how peope can use it will be limited. In most case it won't even be feesable - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:23:27 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 21, Dave Cinege wrote On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:33:41 -0400 (EDT), Tim Sailer wrote: One of the reasons is that when people make a donation, it could be tax deductable. Right now it is not. We have to get 501(c)3 status with the US IRS first. Why? Of what intestest is that to the people that don't live in the USA. How much in donations are to planning to work towards? Do you think the IRS will allow companies to write off the ftp bandwidth they donate? Hell no... I don't see the need. Well, many others did. And many others agreed with the other changes you disagree with. These decisions have been made. The time for discussion is _over_, unless you've got something more substantial than the pot-shots you've been taking so far. Who? I've been reading this list long before the the notice of incorpoation came through. I never saw any discussion about it. Excuse me if I missed it, but I never remember seeing a single post asking if it was OK if a few guys in the group became 'Debian' If you feel these changes make it impossible for you to use Debian, we're sorry, but it looks like the time has come for you to move to another distribution or start your own or whatever. I just spoke with someone today about this, and he said it looks like this crap might just do that. If these changes do not make it impossible for you to use Debian, then please come up with something substantial enough that it might actually make people reconsider (I'll give you a clue, I don't see the need ain't likely to work---obviously the others did) or *drop it*. I've said it ten times. Politics are starting to come into play over the technical aspects of the distribution. If it is furthered it will either destroy the project or break it up. There was no good reason for a corp to be formed. I kept quite. There was no good reason to put out an 'Official' cd (which hurt a lot of our CD-R guys), and I kept quite. Now for the most pethtic reason, the entire version control system (and quality of product, both perceived and actual) is at stake. Now I'm ventting my shit with full force. I see where this is leading. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:11:16 -0400, Marc W. Brooks wrote: Okay, I'm not sure where we disagree then. You admit that In most cases it won't even be feasible, but this also means that in some cases, it would be feasible. Could be...could. Why not give that option to people? Just wondering. Because of the 'baggage' involved with having the corp IMHO is not worth it. How much would it let us benift? The love of the product is why people donated. For those that actually pay taxes, I doubt the write off would be a deciding factor. Regardless of my feelings about the corp, the main issue to me has always been the product. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:20:36 -0400 (EDT), Will Lowe wrote:
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Dave Cinege wrote:
If the orginization were not invloded in promotions, and makings CD-Rom,
they
could get back to simply working towards the orginazation of a quality
product.
Thats their purpose as far as I'm concerned, not worring about if CD makers
can
keep their stock up to date.
I think that _anything_ that helps make Debian more mainstream and
available to new users is worthwhile as long as it doesn't compromise the
inherent stability and usefullness of the Debian distribution.
Here here. But it should not be anyones jobs. You can't bring that
commerization
aspet in with the people that make decsions on the future of a free product.
It
sways thems
I say this not from a We are Hackers of Debian; Prepare to be
Assimilated or Let's take over the planet standpoint, but because in
order to get more commercially-available software into Debian
format/compatibility, we need to make the distribution commercially
viable. It'd be nice if eventually you could download netscape3024.deb
or get the newest release of your favorite
{game;utility;screensaver;officesuite} in Linux (esp. Debian) ala Quake or
Wordperfect Linux.
But it won't happen unless people are convinced that linux is a workable,
commercially-viable alternative to products from Gates, Inc. I think
Debian's the best shot it's got.
You should't even worry about that. What will happen, will happen because of
how
good debian is. I'm not saying hide it, just don't do things that puts the
orginaizers
in a competative state with each other.
Getting the word out is all that is needed. Making CDs available (not just
cheap!) is
scifecent and something custimarily handled by several developers in the group.
If cheapbytes wants to rep out 5 thousand CD's that's their perogative. But we
should in no way feel obligated to cater to their ability to sell those cd's.
-
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http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project
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Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On 21 Aug 1997 13:23:32 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, Dave == Dave Cinege [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:28:10 -0400, Eloy A. Paris wrote: Dave I think Debian was doing just fine before it started to receive Dave cash donations. What expenses does it have? Can you make your Dave books public Bruce? Personally, I think a less confrontational tone would be more appropriate. You think that the domain registration is free? No, I know it isn't as I pay for my own. Do you think that the project can depend on all the machines on our ftp sites to be donated? Yes. It has to. That the Linux organizations all have no fee? No. We have redhat, and caldera, and other distributions that are not. If I were to take as confrontaional a view as you have, I might point out that as far I can see, you have made no contribution to the project beyond griping, (and *possibly* a _voluntary_ contribution); IMHO, the least you can do is be polite. However, I shall not descend into those depths. Do you have any basis for the implication that Bruce is doing things underhandedly with the money? I never meant to insinuate Bruce is doing something underhanded, just that ther are no real expences to speak of past what they are *additionally* creating for themselves. If you want to go ahead and put a number on FTP access you could. If that had to be bought out right, the project would collapse instantly. Enough money to buy it could not realisticly be raised. Ever. Dave The purpose behind the official incorporation for Debian is Dave still beyand me, and the more I think about it I don't like it. I am sorry that you do not like it. However, the project can't be all things to all people. My native friends tell me that the appropriate reaction it ``tough''. Jeez I guess I set my expectations too high, looking for an OS that doesn't have 15 different revs per minor number. Was the bug fix in the 1,3 R2 that was relases this week or the 1.3 R2 that was released last week? Oh well, who cares Dave Why the US government suddenly has to get involded, I have no Dave idea. The government is invlved minimally, I think. A private company can accept money and pay bills (I think it is very miserly for people to want everything for FREE, but expect the volunteers to pay for the project). It may also apply for a tax exepmt status (which means that the project means to be non-profitable) What bills? Is there a Debian hot line? 800-call-debian? Dave Why does Debian need to be an artificial US government privedged Dave entiy? Get real. That's what a corporation is; a fictitous person. Get a law book. Dave It's our OS. We collectivly own it. Why do we suddenly need Dave permission from someone to exists I'm sure some of the other Dave anarchists here are also wondering about these things You are perfectly free to start your own distribution of Linux, It's looks like maybe Bruce already has - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:05:09 +0200, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: On top of that, not everyone can donate time or resourses, but they can contribute money. To who? Am I a part of Debian.org? Do I have a vote.even if I maintain 50 packages?? Do you maintain even one? No, but I am leading a project that uses Debian as it's base and will be finalzed in 5+ packages. Somebody out there that does maintain alot of packages...Where you asked? About your other points: not worth to reply. Thank you for sparing me yours. If you really need your own way, append a .1 with a black marker on all version numbers on screen. It's not about .1 R1, or Asub1, to the 2nd power of 4. It's about something that is frozen, actully staying frozen. If the disc says 1.3.1, I should be able crccheck the whole damn thing against the master 1.3.1 dist, and have it come up clean. Right NOW you can't even do that, and according to what bruce posted it is going to get worse, for the benefit of some cd makers. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:44:11 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 21, Dave Cinege wrote On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:23:27 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 21, Dave Cinege wrote I don't see the need. Well, many others did. And many others agreed with the other changes you disagree with. These decisions have been made. The time for discussion is _over_, unless you've got something more substantial than the pot-shots you've been taking so far. Who? The Debian developers---the people who *are* Debian. And if you doubt that for a moment, consider the two questions and their answers: Oh boy...is this going in a circle... So, discussions of technical and/or organizational details take place on the debian-devel list, where the developers are. We actively solicit the input of users, and try really hard to accomodate users' needs, but, in the end, the developers make the decision. So this new revision scheme was agreed upon on the devl list? It was suggested, discussed and decided on the devel list? That's not how it was convaded to me. There was a good reason for forming a corporation---removing legal liability of the developers. As one of those developers, I would have been sincerely pissed if I'd found myself a defendent in court over a matter pertaining to Debian. It does no such thing. Are you an officier? Employee? Even formally subconctrated? Guess you ain't covered then. As for an official CD, which are you referring to, exactly? Now, Debian creates a CD image that anyone is welcome to use. That was done to try and insure that people who bought CDs from vendors not intimately connected with Debian could have a reasonable chance of getting a working set. It had to do with seeing that our name wasn't mud because of mistakes that weren't our own---I suppose you could call that political. I call it sensitivity to users needs. These official CD's where pushed as masters to CD makers. Low and behold by the time the order of 1.3 CDs comes in 1.3.1 is out. The cd makers are pissed, and now the whole way the version control will be done in the project is to make the Official CD a more viable product for deb.org to sell to high volume repers. THAT is political. As far as the issue of release naming, well, I don't feel strongly about it. But I will point out that this is an all volunteer project, and as the people who badgered David Miller about a 2.0.31 kernel found out, venting your shit will full force is most likely to get the developers---the ones doing the actual work of making the distribution---to quit bothering to do work for you. So why don't you either put up or shut up? Rev each change and I'm happy enough to be quite. This is the only reason I started yelling, I still feel it is a good one. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:52:36 -0500, Paul Serice wrote: The purpose behind the official incorporation for Debian is still beyand me, and the more I think about it I don't like it. The project (like linux) has always been for freeholders all over the world. Why the US government suddenly has to get involded, I have no idea. Why does Debian need to be an artificial US government privedged entiy? It's our OS. We collectivly own it. Why do we suddenly need permission from someone to exists I'm sure some of the other anarchists here are also wondering about these things The government has always been involved. In general though, it is With the developers and servers in Germany? nl? state law, not federal, that controls, and (if I remember correctly) most states impose personal liability (as in they come and take away your house and car) for unorganized groups such as Debian was. They could have not followed anything past the guy that caused it. Now they can. Now for your anarchist side, when governments become overbearing they As ours has. tend to nationalize -- As ours has. meaning they take property away from corporations (and other private organizations or individuals) for the supposed general welfare. As ours does. So, it is not difficult to see that freedom from intrusive government does not necessarily imply fewer corporations. A corporation is a creatation of the state. For the most part it is an extension of government. A well behaved corp is never punished. As a matter of fact, strong and health corporations arguably contribute as much to your personal autonomy as any other single factor. I highly doubt this. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Version Numbers - My rant on this
On Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:35 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: So I am running Debian version 1.3 - and yet the CD says Debian 1.3.1 . Oops. My fault. The reason for two numbers is mostly marketing. I know that marketing is anathema to most of us, but someone's gotta do it and I'm afraid the task fell on me. Feel free to call me up if you need a longer explanation. Phooey! I like the naming scheme, and the system for updates. When I am using something Debian I want to know if it is 1.3.0 or 1.3.1, not 1.3 Rev-Guesswhatchangeswe'vemadewiththisrun. (debian_version should also reflect this) Be a man among men! Trend set! A third rev number is the *RIGHT* way to do things. It is a linux-centric way to do things. Isn't the linux ethic about engineers making the product THEY want? (Not some marketing suit!) People use linux because of *the product* not because of a psycedelic world peace mind screw tv commercial. (Bring any companies to mind?) Debian is also being accepted because of the productalot of people have never even used CD's. Those of us that have probably started out with a CD-R with 'deb' scribbled across the front in black marker. My vote is to keep it as it is and be proud of it. Screw the cd makers if they don't like it. What they really want is to be able to hide the subversions from people. If they want to do it, fine, just don't ask us to change our entire functional naming system. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Version Numbers - My rant on this
On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:47:12 -0600 (MDT), Anthony Fok wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Dave Cinege wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:35 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: So I am running Debian version 1.3 - and yet the CD says Debian 1.3.1 . Oops. My fault. The reason for two numbers is mostly marketing. I know that marketing is anathema to most of us, but someone's gotta do it and I'm afraid the task fell on me. Feel free to call me up if you need a longer explanation. Phooey! I like the naming scheme, and the system for updates. When I am using something Debian I want to know if it is 1.3.0 or 1.3.1, not 1.3 Rev-Guesswhatchangeswe'vemadewiththisrun. (debian_version should also reflect this) (The following are how I see this is. If I am incorrect, please correct me. :) New revisions are still distinguished. There is nothing hidden in anyway. For example, if there are some security fixes needed for a new release, it will be called Debian 1.3.1 Revision 1, Debian 1.3.1 Revision 2, and so forth. This is to indicate that the changes are small. (Usually just minor bug fixes, perhaps just a few megabytes which only takes a few minutes to half an hour for people to download from an FTP site.) Its monkey wrench time. When I query debian_version with my script what do I now look for? 1.3.1 is easy. Everything is delimited with a . just use cut. Will it now return 1.3.1r1 1.3 R1 or what? Does this look nice at boot up? Is this going to break any previous scripts? I like this idea. It is a very good compromise, and indeed, nothing is hidden. You may think of Debian 1.3.1 Revision 1 as 1.3.1.1; Debian 2.0 Revision 1 as Debian 2.0.1. It is up to you. ^_^ I don't. 1.3.1 Rev 1 looks plain dumb. It looks like something so screwed we've got subpatches on top of patches. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: RAID5 controller
On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:34:41 -0400 (EDT), Jean Pierre LeJacq wrote: I've been using the DPT controller with Debian but only for RAID 1. I've had no trouble except for the e2fsprog bug. The RAID functionality is implemented in hardware and appears as a normal disk to Debian. I should also mention it appears to be a normal disk to ANY OS that DPT supports. On my RAID 0 array I boot OpenDOS, NT(or should I say have booted for this one : ), OS/2, and Linux using OS/2's bootmanager. The only downside I've seen is that DPT's configuration software is not available for Linux. Not YET. According to Mike Neuffer (eata driver author) (storage manager) is work in progress - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: RAID5 controller
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:23:13 -0700, Kevin Traas wrote: can anyone recommend a couple of tried and true RAID5 controllers i could price out? I've used the Mylex DAC960 PCI (3 and 5 channel). Very happy with them - but pricy. However, I've never used these under Linux, only SCO Unix and They don't work under linux, and also they are very slow performers, from the comparisons I've seen. The best RAID HBAs you can get are DPT. They work 100% under linux and I'd be happy to sell you one... - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Netscape beta install ate my bookmarks!!
and I was not very fucking happy about it, let me tell you. Lucky I was able to recover 99% of them with lde and dd. I'm not sure if it was the wrapper itself or netscape. I saw the install say: Found /root/.netscape/booksmarks.html But I have no idea what it did once it found them. Yes I should have backed up .netscape, but I was tired and I forgot. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Netscape beta install package gone... Re: Comunicator 4.02b7 is out
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:30:19 -0600 (MDT), Anthony Fok wrote: On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Dave Cinege wrote: Strange, when I look all I see is an empty directory at ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/communicator/4.02/4.02b7/english/unix It's only on some ftp servers. I found it on ftp25; others gave me the same empty directory as what you found. I was able to grab itover 9mb!!! What happened to the netscape beta install package? I went to install it, and even ftp.debian.org doesn't have it in contrib. Check in unstable, contrib, web. :) The netscape beta install package has been replaced by the package netscape4. OK, but the packages file in stable/contrib still lists it! - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian-lite
On Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:02:55 +0200, Pierre Blanchet wrote: How about they just get the damn base disks and then install from FTP?!?!?! (Sorry, if you can't get to the net you don't count) AC == Alec Clews [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's why the name Debian-lite makes me sick. It reminds me of those commercial products where you have to pay for a full version of the product. AC OK. How about Debian-Desktop? (Debian-BBS, Debian-ISP etc) AC Regards, Alec -- Alec Clews, [EMAIL PROTECTED], PGP AC keyid:48FA EB81 TCA Consulting Ltd Tel. 44-(0)171-415-8159 AC Fax:44-(0)171-556-0022 New CIty Court, 20 St Thomas Street, AC London, Britain, SE1 9SD == Usual AC Disclaimers Apply = Personal and PGP key AC http://www.earth.demon.co.uk/alec How about Deb-One (it's sound like debian, but built for one special task, or just for one user) ? - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: splitting up the debian-user mailing list
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:33:57 +0200 (METDST), Christian Lynbech wrote: Bruce, I don't think it's going to make much difference. I'll wind-up subscribing to all the lists, and between the cc: ing between them I'll receive lots more dups...it will just be more of a bother to maintain...maybe so much I'll NOT read some of the lists I normally do. Nice thought but it really won't work. If you had a few constant threads that you could point out at as seperate subjects (ie network, install, etc) you could do it. But everything in the list is highly intermingled. If you broke it up this way you will still have one main list everybody uses, and a few small lists that are staved except for all the cc's! Here's an ideaYou could make several email address that all go to the same list. And when they post to that the listmanger adds a formated topic to the begining of the subject. IE debian-user-install@ Subject: How do I? It gets sent to the list as Subject: [INSTALL] How do I Easy to sort, whatever, with your email client. If the CC is automatically set to the proper list the responces should remain correct. It will take some perl, but will be better then seperate lists IMHO. Otherwise just leave it as it is. - http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/linux-router/ Linux Router Project -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Help with Debian and ISDN
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:27:45 +0700 (GMT-7), Udjat -A MiB wrote: On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Dave Cinege wrote: I had this same problem with both a Zyxel Omni TA, and Elite 2864i. Drove me and my ISP crazy for a few days. My machine gun redialing manged to bring down his whole netit was not a pretty sight. (And we still don't know why) We watched the flow with tcpdump and the LCP simply doesn't get past the TA. pppd sends a requesthe would see it, his hardware would answer. Then pppd would send another request with the same serial # (since it never received a responce from the first), and this would go one until the time-out and redial. Weird Did you ever figure out a solution? Yeah, turn it off : -- Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Help with Debian and ISDN
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:40:35 +0700 (GMT-7), Udjat -A MiB wrote: Also I cant seem to get LCP EchoReq to work. I have turned that feature in pppd off. (in /etc/ppp/options) On the same note I also cant seen to get LCP ConfReq working for bsd_comp.o eather. shrug I had this same problem with both a Zyxel Omni TA, and Elite 2864i. Drove me and my ISP crazy for a few days. My machine gun redialing manged to bring down his whole netit was not a pretty sight. (And we still don't know why) We watched the flow with tcpdump and the LCP simply doesn't get past the TA. pppd sends a requesthe would see it, his hardware would answer. Then pppd would send another request with the same serial # (since it never received a responce from the first), and this would go one until the time-out and redial. Weird -- Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Netscape beta install package gone... Re: Comunicator 4.02b7 is out
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:58:29 -0400 (EDT), Randy Edwards wrote: On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Rick Macdonald wrote: Strange, when I look all I see is an empty directory at ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/communicator/4.02/4.02b7/english/unix It's only on some ftp servers. I found it on ftp25; others gave me the same empty directory as what you found. I was able to grab itover 9mb!!! What happened to the netscape beta install package? I went to install it, and even ftp.debian.org doesn't have it in contrib. Is it being updated for b7, or did it just vanish? Damn, I'm getting so spoiled by Debian I don't even want to run an install script : P Been a LONG time since I compiled anything beside kernels -- Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: libc5 and libc6
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:08 -0400, Paul Miller wrote: How can I install *BOTH* libc5 and libc6?? Can't we all just get along? dpkg -i libc6 ; They coexsist fine, and I'm happy to say I'm now running apache 1.2.0 (a libc6 compile) -- Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Questions about moving to libc6 (and apache)
I found the Apache 1.2 package in experimental, and now I know whyit requires libc6. What are the repercussion's if I install this on my 1.3.1 system? Can I just install libc6 and what uses libc6 with be happy, or will I need to remove libc5 and then have to worry about compatibility problems? I really want to move to the newer version of apache. -- Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 http://www.psychosis.com/emc/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
