Re: General questions

[Lee]

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 7:55 AM 타토카  wrote:
>
> And can you explain to me what is it, please? *
>
> $ alias | grep sha
> alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
> alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
> alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '

It's a way of getting sha sums for a file.  I've been carrying those
in my .bashrc file for ages.. I don't remember if I didn't know about
the sha1sum program or it didn't exist in cygwin at the time, but I
found a method that worked and quit looking.  By now it's "muscle
memory" -- like returning from vacation and not being able to remember
your password, but go down to the cafeteria, get a cup of coffee,
return to your desk, turn your PC on and enter your password without
thinking.  I found a method that worked and don't think about it any
more.  You probably should use the sha1sum, sha256sum, sha512sum
programs though - if only to reduce confusion when you're talking to
other people :)

Regards
Lee

Re: General questions

[Franco Martelli]

On 11/07/24 at 13:55, 타토카 wrote:

And can you explain to me what is it, please? *

$ alias | grep sha
alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '


Since you are asking this question maybe you don't know that after 
verified the authenticity of SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS files you must 
use the file SHA512SUMS to verify the authenticity of the .iso files you 
will download.


If you open SHA512SUMS in an editor you see a list of checksum that they 
belong to respective .iso or .torrent files.


Recently I downloaded the "debian-12.6.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso" iso image 
using a .torrent file. After downloaded the .torrent file place it 
together SHA512SUMS in the same directory, then verify the authenticity 
with the command:


$ sha512sum --ignore-missing -c SHA512SUMS
debian-12.6.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso.torrent: OK

Now you are ready to download the .iso, open the .torrent file in your 
favorite Torrent client and start the download, then check the 
authenticity of the .iso with exactly the same command:


$ sha512sum --ignore-missing -c SHA512SUMS
debian-12.6.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso: OK

This step might take a while, so be patient, after done that you are 
ready to burn a DVD, copy the .iso to an USB key, install to a virtual 
machine… but this is another story ^_^


Cheers,
--
Franco Martelli

Re: General questions

[Dan Purgert]

On Jul 11, 2024, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 17:23:43 +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> > But, what do you mean: "Because you haven't established a chain of trust
> > from yourself to any of the signatures."
> 
> Imagine someone walks up to you on the street and hands you a contract,
> which is signed by someone you've never heard of.
> 
> You don't know the guy who gave you the contract.  You've never seen him
> before.  So, you don't trust him. [...]

I always liked the analogy of schoolwork / notes.

Say you missed last Friday's class, and you need the notes (where "the
notes" correspond to "the pgp key in question").

Scenario A: "untrusted" ("website with a link / posted fingerprint")
You run into someone from class, who you don't really know all that
well, but you do know they answer the professor pretty often (and
correctly at that).  

Scenario B: "web of trust" ("one or more trusted signatures on that key")
Nearly the same as "A", but the other person is a friend-of-a-friend.
You can ask your friend when you meet them for lunch if you can trust
the classmate's notes.

Scenario C: "fully trusted" ("you made the effort to verify the owner")
You ask you best friend since second grade for their notes.  You know
they've been an "A" student since forever, and they take amazing notes.



-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: General questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 17:23:43 +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> But, what do you mean: "Because you haven't established a chain of trust
> from yourself to any of the signatures."

Imagine someone walks up to you on the street and hands you a contract,
which is signed by someone you've never heard of.

You don't know the guy who gave you the contract.  You've never seen him
before.  So, you don't trust him.

You can do a little bit of research on the person whose signature is on
the contract.  Maybe she's famous.  You look her up on the Internet, and
it turns out that she's well known in certain circles.  If her signature
is on this contract, then the contract is probably worth something.

But how do you know whether this is really her signature, or a forgery?

If you knew her in person, you could go to her office, ask her to sign
something in your presence, and compare her signature to the one you see
on the contract.

But you don't know her in person.  She lives really far away, and she's
too important and too busy to want to spend a lot of time signing blank
pieces of paper for people like you anyway.

But maybe you know someone who knows her.  Your lawyer friend -- maybe
he's worked with her before.  He might know what her signature looks
like.  He might be able to tell you whether the signature on the contract
is valid.

So, you go to your lawyer friend, and you show him the contract, and
he says "Yeah, that looks legit."

Now you know what her signature looks like, or at least you've got
verification from a source that you trust.

> Is it only for Debian developers? And is it very important?

In theory, anybody can attend a key signing party, and get in-person
verification of various GPG keys.  Once you've got a few keys from
people that you trust, your web of trust expands.

If you've got a trusted key from Joe Smith, and Joe Smith says he
trusts a key belonging to Sara Jones, and Sara Jones says she trusts
the Debian signing key that you're trying to verify, then you have a
chain of trust from yourself, to Joe, to Sara, to the Debian key.

In practice, very few people do this, because it's a LOT of effort.

Re: General questions

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

cybertat...@gmail.com wrote:
> gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!

That's normal. The concept of a "web of trust" suffers from the fact
that most people which i know good enough to trust them in general
have no idea of PGP and thus are not really trustworthy in special.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_of_trust

The best verification you can get outside the web of trust is the
key fingerprint which must match one of the published fingerprints on
  https://www.debian.org/CD/verify
I deem them trustworthy because they did not change in years.

(Cryptographers might object that old keys are poor keys. But they will
also be right with telling you that cryptography is a minefield and thus
amateurs like us should stay away from it.)


> And can you explain to me what is it, please?
> $ alias | grep sha
> alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
> alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
> alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '

Shell commands "sha1", "sha256", and "sha512" were somewhere defined to
actually be runs of program /usr/bin/openssl with the checksum algorithms
given by the command names.

Usually people get told to use shell commands "sha256sum" and "sha512sum"
which are supposed to run the programs /usr/bin/sha256sum and
/usr/bin/sha512sum from package "coreutils".

In order to find out from where the "alias" definitions stem, you will
have to check the startup scripts of your shell. Like ~/.bashrc .


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: General questions

[타토카]

Ok, I think this is really enough for verification ( Maybe (^_^) ).
But, what do you mean: "Because you haven't established a chain of trust
from yourself to any of the signatures."
Is it only for Debian developers? And is it very important?

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:58 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 16:47:45 +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> > Why 64 signatures not checked and no ultimately trusted keys found here:
> > $ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
> > gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
> > gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
> > " imported
> > gpg: Total number processed: 1
> > gpg:   imported: 1
> > gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found
> >
> > And this:
> > gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
> > gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the
> > owner.
>
> Because you haven't established a chain of trust from yourself to any
> of the signatures.
>
> You've downloaded this key from the Internet.  And it's signed by 64
> other keys.  That's all you know.  You have no idea whether any of those
> 64 signing keys are trustworthy.
>
> At some point, you have to say "This is good enough."  And then you move
> on with your life, either installing Debian from the image that you have,
> or not.
>
> You've already done far more verification than most people do.
>
>

Re: General questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 16:47:45 +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> Why 64 signatures not checked and no ultimately trusted keys found here:
> $ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
> " imported
> gpg: Total number processed: 1
> gpg:   imported: 1
> gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found
> 
> And this:
> gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
> gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the
> owner.

Because you haven't established a chain of trust from yourself to any
of the signatures.

You've downloaded this key from the Internet.  And it's signed by 64
other keys.  That's all you know.  You have no idea whether any of those
64 signing keys are trustworthy.

At some point, you have to say "This is good enough."  And then you move
on with your life, either installing Debian from the image that you have,
or not.

You've already done far more verification than most people do.

Re: General questions

[타토카]

And can you explain to me what is it, please? *

$ alias | grep sha
alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:47 PM 타토카  wrote:

> Why 64 signatures not checked and no ultimately trusted keys found here:
> $ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
> " imported
> gpg: Total number processed: 1
> gpg:   imported: 1
> gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found
>
> And this:
> gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
> gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the
> owner.
>
> This is weird. Why Fedora does not have this, but Debian does.
>
> And can you explain to me what is it, please?
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:00 AM Lee  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 6:07 PM 타토카  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello, dear Debian Community.
>> >
>> > I just wanted to check a key with GPG.
>> >
>> > I have found this on https://www.debian.org/CD/verify:
>> >
>> > pub   rsa4096/DA87E80D6294BE9B 2011-01-05 [SC]
>> >
>> > Key fingerprint = DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B
>> >
>> > uid  Debian CD signing key 
>> >
>> >
>> > How can I download this key for GPG checking?
>>
>> Click on the link, that takes you to
>>   https://www.debian.org/CD/key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
>> and save the file.  Then gpg --import it
>>
>> $ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
>> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
>> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
>> " imported
>> gpg: Total number processed: 1
>> gpg:   imported: 1
>> gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found
>>
>> hrmmm... 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys due to missing
>> keys doesn't look good, but you've got the key now.
>>
>> I checked by going to
>> http://mirror.us.leaseweb.net/debian-cd/12.6.0/amd64/iso-dvd/ and got
>> the SHA512SUMS and SHA512SUMS.sign files.
>> Verify them by
>>
>> $ gpg --verify SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
>> gpg: Signature made Sat Jun 29 16:50:24 2024 EDT
>> gpg:using RSA key DF9B9C49EAA9298432589D76DA87E80D6294BE9B
>> gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key
>> " [unknown]
>> gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
>> gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the
>> owner.
>> Primary key fingerprint: DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294
>> BE9B
>>
>> so the contents of SHA512SUMS are trustworthy.  Or as trustworthy as I
>> can verify.. somebody else hopefully knows how to get all the missing
>> keys and mark the DA87E80D6294BE9B key as trusted.
>>
>> and for whatever it's worth, I use these aliases:
>> $ alias | grep sha
>> alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
>> alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
>> alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lee
>>
>

Re: General questions

[타토카]

Why 64 signatures not checked and no ultimately trusted keys found here:
$ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
" imported
gpg: Total number processed: 1
gpg:   imported: 1
gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found

And this:
gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the
owner.

This is weird. Why Fedora does not have this, but Debian does.

And can you explain to me what is it, please?

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:00 AM Lee  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 6:07 PM 타토카  wrote:
> >
> > Hello, dear Debian Community.
> >
> > I just wanted to check a key with GPG.
> >
> > I have found this on https://www.debian.org/CD/verify:
> >
> > pub   rsa4096/DA87E80D6294BE9B 2011-01-05 [SC]
> >
> > Key fingerprint = DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B
> >
> > uid  Debian CD signing key 
> >
> >
> > How can I download this key for GPG checking?
>
> Click on the link, that takes you to
>   https://www.debian.org/CD/key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
> and save the file.  Then gpg --import it
>
> $ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
> gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
> " imported
> gpg: Total number processed: 1
> gpg:   imported: 1
> gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found
>
> hrmmm... 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys due to missing
> keys doesn't look good, but you've got the key now.
>
> I checked by going to
> http://mirror.us.leaseweb.net/debian-cd/12.6.0/amd64/iso-dvd/ and got
> the SHA512SUMS and SHA512SUMS.sign files.
> Verify them by
>
> $ gpg --verify SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
> gpg: Signature made Sat Jun 29 16:50:24 2024 EDT
> gpg:using RSA key DF9B9C49EAA9298432589D76DA87E80D6294BE9B
> gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key
> " [unknown]
> gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
> gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the
> owner.
> Primary key fingerprint: DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B
>
> so the contents of SHA512SUMS are trustworthy.  Or as trustworthy as I
> can verify.. somebody else hopefully knows how to get all the missing
> keys and mark the DA87E80D6294BE9B key as trusted.
>
> and for whatever it's worth, I use these aliases:
> $ alias | grep sha
> alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
> alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
> alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '
>
> Regards,
> Lee
>

Re: General questions

[Lee]

On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 6:07 PM 타토카  wrote:
>
> Hello, dear Debian Community.
>
> I just wanted to check a key with GPG.
>
> I have found this on https://www.debian.org/CD/verify:
>
> pub   rsa4096/DA87E80D6294BE9B 2011-01-05 [SC]
>
> Key fingerprint = DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B
>
> uid  Debian CD signing key 
>
>
> How can I download this key for GPG checking?

Click on the link, that takes you to
  https://www.debian.org/CD/key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
and save the file.  Then gpg --import it

$ gpg --import key-DA87E80D6294BE9B.txt
gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys
gpg: key DA87E80D6294BE9B: public key "Debian CD signing key
" imported
gpg: Total number processed: 1
gpg:   imported: 1
gpg: no ultimately trusted keys found

hrmmm... 64 signatures not checked due to missing keys due to missing
keys doesn't look good, but you've got the key now.

I checked by going to
http://mirror.us.leaseweb.net/debian-cd/12.6.0/amd64/iso-dvd/ and got
the SHA512SUMS and SHA512SUMS.sign files.
Verify them by

$ gpg --verify SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
gpg: Signature made Sat Jun 29 16:50:24 2024 EDT
gpg:using RSA key DF9B9C49EAA9298432589D76DA87E80D6294BE9B
gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key
" [unknown]
gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
gpg:  There is no indication that the signature belongs to the owner.
Primary key fingerprint: DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B

so the contents of SHA512SUMS are trustworthy.  Or as trustworthy as I
can verify.. somebody else hopefully knows how to get all the missing
keys and mark the DA87E80D6294BE9B key as trusted.

and for whatever it's worth, I use these aliases:
$ alias | grep sha
alias sha1='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha1 '
alias sha256='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha256 '
alias sha512='/usr/bin/openssl dgst -sha512 '

Regards,
Lee

Re: General questions

[타토카]

Hello, dear Debian Community.

I just wanted to check a key with GPG.

I have found this on https://www.debian.org/CD/verify:

pub   rsa4096/DA87E80D6294BE9B 2011-01-05 [SC]

Key fingerprint = DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B

uid  Debian CD signing key 


How can I download this key for GPG checking? Can I do next:

gpg --keyserver keyring.debian.org --recv-keys DA87E80D6294BE9B


If not, can you give an advice how to do it right?

Re: General questions

[gene heskett]

On 7/8/24 19:02, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Mon, Jul 08, 2024 at 06:08:49PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 7/8/24 17:20, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 09, 2024 at 12:15:00AM +0500, 타토카 wrote:

I mean subscriptions like this "debian-user"


The only cost associated with this mailing list is your sanity.


+1, Andy. Some of us get downright upset with the Karens that think they run
this all volunteer show. I've unfortunately come to the conclusion they are
best ignored. Generally, they don't seem to be members of a civil society,
or to be able to learn how to treat their fellow man. Your monitoring, and
howto corrections are much appreciated, thank you.


Thanks,
Andy





All contributions by any Andy gratefully received on this list. There
are also all sorts of people contributing to - and reading - this list.
Sometimes, even the worst of the passers by and trolls improve.

Please don't stoop to characterising others too readily as you might
dissuade somebody from contributing who could be really valuable.


All quite true Andy. But you may have noted that I only speak up from 
personal experience from having done it myself, not always in the 
approved way.



All the very best, as ever,

Andy
(amaca...@debian.org)


Take care & stay well, Andy.



Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis



.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: General questions

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Jul 08, 2024 at 06:08:49PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 7/8/24 17:20, Andy Smith wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Tue, Jul 09, 2024 at 12:15:00AM +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> > > I mean subscriptions like this "debian-user"
> > 
> > The only cost associated with this mailing list is your sanity.
> > 
> +1, Andy. Some of us get downright upset with the Karens that think they run
> this all volunteer show. I've unfortunately come to the conclusion they are
> best ignored. Generally, they don't seem to be members of a civil society,
> or to be able to learn how to treat their fellow man. Your monitoring, and
> howto corrections are much appreciated, thank you.
> 
> > Thanks,
> > Andy
> > 
> 

All contributions by any Andy gratefully received on this list. There
are also all sorts of people contributing to - and reading - this list.
Sometimes, even the worst of the passers by and trolls improve.

Please don't stoop to characterising others too readily as you might 
dissuade somebody from contributing who could be really valuable.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy
(amaca...@debian.org)

> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> 

Re: General questions

[gene heskett]

On 7/8/24 17:20, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 09, 2024 at 12:15:00AM +0500, 타토카 wrote:

I mean subscriptions like this "debian-user"


The only cost associated with this mailing list is your sanity.

+1, Andy. Some of us get downright upset with the Karens that think they 
run this all volunteer show. I've unfortunately come to the conclusion 
they are best ignored. Generally, they don't seem to be members of a 
civil society, or to be able to learn how to treat their fellow man. 
Your monitoring, and howto corrections are much appreciated, thank you.



Thanks,
Andy



Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: General questions

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 09, 2024 at 12:15:00AM +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> I mean subscriptions like this "debian-user"

The only cost associated with this mailing list is your sanity.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: General questions

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

cybertat...@gmail.com wrote:
>     2.2. I have done then: gpg --keyserver keyring.debian.org --verify 
> SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
>     2.3. Then I have got next info: Signed was made in 30 june 2024
>    And RSA key: DF9B9C49EAA9298432589D76DA87E80D6294BE9B
> I have compared 2011 's key and mine and they are the same.

The key string looks good, indeed.


> But is it a good idea to do that? Or do I need to download the open key and
> then compare them?

It would suffice for me. If you know more ways to verify that the
signature belongs to Debian, then apply them. Just to be sure.


> And is verification with SHA512SUMS.sign and SHA512SUMS enough? Should I do
> the same actions with SHA216SUMS.sign and SHA216SUMS?

It is general belief that faking a SHA-512 checksum is not feasible,
currently. Faking both, SHA-512 and SHA-256 would be even more difficult.
So check both and raise loud alarm if one matches and the other does not.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: General questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jul 09, 2024 at 00:15:00 +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> Thank you all for your answers.
> 1. But I mean subscriptions like this "debian-user":) But I really like
> your answers about Debian's freedom. I think it is useful information.
> Thanks.

The debian-user mailing list is open to all who wish to contribute to it,
as long as they abide by the list's code of conduct.  There is no fee
involved.  On the other hand, any answers you get here are "use at your
own risk", as they are coming from random people on the Internet.

Re: General questions

[타토카]

Thank you all for your answers.
1. But I mean subscriptions like this "debian-user":) But I really like
your answers about Debian's freedom. I think it is useful information.
Thanks.
2. I just have verified GPG's keys manually: https://keyring.debian.org/
2.1. I have downloaded SHA512 SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS from
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/bt-cd/
2.2. I have done then: gpg --keyserver keyring.debian.org --verify
SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
2.3. Then I have got next info: Signed was made in 30 june 2024
And RSA key: DF9B9C49EAA9298432589D76DA87E80D6294BE9B
I have compared 2011 's key and mine and they are the same.
But is it a good idea to do that? Or do I need to download the open key and
then compare them?
And is verification with SHA512SUMS.sign and SHA512SUMS enough? Should I do
the same actions with SHA216SUMS.sign and SHA216SUMS?

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:00 PM Thomas Schmitt  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> cybertat...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 2. How to check Debian Image Authentication?
> > Is checksum verification (sha216sum, sha512sum) enough?
>
> Only if you are trusting the site from where you downloaded the ISO.
> In that case you'd use the checksums in the files SHA256SUMS and
> SHA512SUMS as mere control whether the download delivered what the server
> operators intended.
>
>
> > Should I verify with GPG?
>
> The signatures in the files SHA256SUMS.sign and SHA512SUMS.sign verify that
> the checksums in SHA256SUMS and SHA512SUMS are authorized by the Debian
> developers who are in charge of image production.
>
> Verify them by e.g.
>
>   gpg --keyserver keyring.debian.org --verify SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
>
> and look out for the text,
>
>   gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key <
> debian...@lists.debian.org>"
>   ...
>   Primary key fingerprint: DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294
> BE9B
>
> First occuruence of this fingerprint in my mailbox is Oct 10 2015.
>
> On
>   https://www.debian.org/CD/verify
> there are two more valid keys published which would yield:
>
>   gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key <
> debian...@lists.debian.org>"
>   Primary key fingerprint:  1046 0DAD 7616 5AD8 1FBC  0CE9 9880 21A9 64E6
> EA7D
>
>   gpg: Good signature from "Debian Testing CDs Automatic Signing Key <
> debian...@lists.debian.org>"
>   Primary key fingerprint: F41D 3034 2F35 4669 5F65  C669 4246 8F40 09EA
> 8AC3
>
> Both have their first occurence in my mailbox at Feb 16 2020.
>
> If you see one of these texts, then you may assume the checksum files to
> be valid (or the fingerprints to be undetected falsifications since years).
> But if you see deviations in the fingerprint lines then this would be very
> suspicious.
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>

Re: General questions

[Michael Kjörling]

On 8 Jul 2024 22:24 +0500, from cybertat...@gmail.com (타토카):
> 1. Are all subscriptions to Debian free?

Others have already pointed out that Debian is free, but I want to
note that this question seems to be based on a misunderstanding.

The fact is that there are no "subscriptions" to Debian, in the
typical sense.

Some people voluntarily _donate_ to the Debian project to help cover
costs, provide hardware, etc., and the Debian project solicits such
donations in various ways. Some are members for example of this
mailing list and give back to the community by answering other
peoples' questions. Some contribute bug reports, code or documentation
changes either to correct errors or to improve clarity. Some introduce
their friends, family and relatives to free software and offer
hands-on help. Some companies provide services at a lower price to
people who are active in the Debian project, or to the Debian project
itself.

But there is absolutely no requirement to do any of this.

Some companies do offer _support contracts_ that cover Debian, and
particularly other companies tend to like this because it gives them
somewhere to call if they have a problem. But you don't need to have
anything like that to use Debian, or contribute in various ways.

You can just download, install and use it. :-)

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: General questions

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

cybertat...@gmail.com wrote:
> 2. How to check Debian Image Authentication?
> Is checksum verification (sha216sum, sha512sum) enough?

Only if you are trusting the site from where you downloaded the ISO.
In that case you'd use the checksums in the files SHA256SUMS and
SHA512SUMS as mere control whether the download delivered what the server
operators intended.


> Should I verify with GPG?

The signatures in the files SHA256SUMS.sign and SHA512SUMS.sign verify that
the checksums in SHA256SUMS and SHA512SUMS are authorized by the Debian
developers who are in charge of image production.

Verify them by e.g.

  gpg --keyserver keyring.debian.org --verify SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS

and look out for the text,

  gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key "
  ...
  Primary key fingerprint: DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258  9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B

First occuruence of this fingerprint in my mailbox is Oct 10 2015.

On
  https://www.debian.org/CD/verify
there are two more valid keys published which would yield:

  gpg: Good signature from "Debian CD signing key "
  Primary key fingerprint:  1046 0DAD 7616 5AD8 1FBC  0CE9 9880 21A9 64E6 EA7D

  gpg: Good signature from "Debian Testing CDs Automatic Signing Key 
"
  Primary key fingerprint: F41D 3034 2F35 4669 5F65  C669 4246 8F40 09EA 8AC3

Both have their first occurence in my mailbox at Feb 16 2020.

If you see one of these texts, then you may assume the checksum files to
be valid (or the fingerprints to be undetected falsifications since years).
But if you see deviations in the fingerprint lines then this would be very
suspicious.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: General questions

[Dan Ritter]

타토카 wrote: 
> Hello, dear Debian Community. I have several questions:
> 1. Are all subscriptions to Debian free?

Yes. There are non-Debian businesses which can sell you support,
if you like, but Debian software is all free.

> 2. How to check Debian Image Authentication? Is checksum verification
> (sha216sum, sha512sum) enough? Should I verify with GPG? If so, how can I
> do that? Or can you give me any additional advice to do right verification?

Verify a downloaded image with the checksum:

https://www.debian.org/CD/verify

After that, package updates from Debian HTTPS sources will be
good.

-dsr-

Re: General questions

[tomas]

On Mon, Jul 08, 2024 at 10:24:13PM +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> Hello, dear Debian Community. I have several questions:
> 1. Are all subscriptions to Debian free?
> 2. How to check Debian Image Authentication? Is checksum verification
> (sha216sum, sha512sum) enough? Should I verify with GPG? If so, how can I
> do that? Or can you give me any additional advice to do right verification?

Most of your questions are addressed here:

  https://www.debian.org/

Yes, Debian is a free operating system, meaning that you are allowed
to use, modify and give the software to others, as long as you limit
yourself to the "free" repository. Other licenses may apply to the
"non-free" section.

Here's how you verify downloaded installation media:

  https://www.debian.org/CD/verify

Packaes are signed, the package manager takes care of verifying their
signatures before install:

  
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/securing-debian-manual/deb-pack-sign.en.html

Enjoy
-- 
tomás


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Re: General questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jul 08, 2024 at 22:24:13 +0500, 타토카 wrote:
> Hello, dear Debian Community. I have several questions:
> 1. Are all subscriptions to Debian free?

Debian is Free Software.  You are allowed to download it, in both binary
and source forms, without requiring a subscription, or a license, other
than the Free Software licenses that apply to each part of Debian.

There are a few different Free Software licenses, and mostly they just
reaffirm your rights to use and to distribute the software.  One of
them, the GNU General Public License, prevents you from placing any
additional restrictions on the software if you distribute it to other
people.  (If you aren't distributing the software to other people, then
none of this matters to you.)

If you want to pay for support, there are some companies who might provide
such a service, but those would be independent of Debian.

> 2. How to check Debian Image Authentication? Is checksum verification
> (sha216sum, sha512sum) enough? Should I verify with GPG? If so, how can I
> do that? Or can you give me any additional advice to do right verification?

https://www.debian.org/CD/verify

General questions

[타토카]

Hello, dear Debian Community. I have several questions:
1. Are all subscriptions to Debian free?
2. How to check Debian Image Authentication? Is checksum verification
(sha216sum, sha512sum) enough? Should I verify with GPG? If so, how can I
do that? Or can you give me any additional advice to do right verification?

Re: General Questions

[l0f4r0]

Hi again,

27 août 2023, 18:46 de l0f...@tuta.io:

>>> ClamAV scan files but data scanned: 0.00 MB, why? I have Debian stable and
>>> use last version of clamav (1.0.1+dfsg-2)
>>> , which is located in debian stable repository.
>>>
I don't think your file has been scanned actually...

Can you provide the command line used?

According to internet, there can be 2 main reasons: either this kind of file is 
not scannable, or its file is bigger than the allowed size.

Maybe you could try:
* clamscan --max-filesize=300M --max-scansize=300M ./your_file.ext
* dd if=./your_file.ext | clamscan -

l0f4r0

Re: General Questions

[l0f4r0]

Hello Takota,

>> ClamAV scan files but data scanned: 0.00 MB, why? I have Debian stable and
>> use last version of clamav (1.0.1+dfsg-2)
>> , which is located in debian stable repository.
>>
Maybe someone on this list will be able to help you, otherwise I recommend you 
write to ClamAV dedicated mailing list directly 
(clamav-us...@lists.clamav.net). It's free as well and you can subscribe 
through https://lists.clamav.net/mailman/listinfo/clamav-users

l0f4r0

Re: General Questions

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 17:01:22 +0600
Tatoka  wrote:

Hello Tatoka,

>1. Is Subscribing to mailing list free?

Yes.  All that's needed is a valid email address to sign up with.

>2. I have problem with ClamAv:

Sorry, can't help with that as I have no experience with ClamAV.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
This is the fifty first state of the USA
Heartland - The The


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Re: General Questions

[tomas]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 05:01:22PM +0600, Tatoka wrote:
> Hello, dear users community of debian! I just wanna ask questions:
> 1. Is Subscribing to mailing list free?

Yes, it is. I am subscribed, so I know :)

> 2. I have problem with ClamAv: When I scanned file:
> --- SCAN SUMMARY ---

[...]

> ClamAV scan files but data scanned: 0.00 MB, why? I have Debian stable and
> use last version of clamav (1.0.1+dfsg-2)
> , which is located in debian stable repository.

I can't help you with that one, since I don't use ClamAV. But I'm
sure someone in this list will.

Cheers
-- 
tomás


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General Questions

[Tatoka]

Hello, dear users community of debian! I just wanna ask questions:
1. Is Subscribing to mailing list free?
2. I have problem with ClamAv: When I scanned file:
--- SCAN SUMMARY ---
Known viruses: 8671927
Engine version: 1.0.1
Scanned directories: 0
Scanned files: 1
Infected files: 0
Data scanned: 0.00 MB
Data read: 133.37 MB (ratio 0.00:1)
Time: 28.235 sec (0 m 28 s)
Start Date: 2023:08:27 16:12:46
End Date:   2023:08:27 16:13:14

ClamAV scan files but data scanned: 0.00 MB, why? I have Debian stable and
use last version of clamav (1.0.1+dfsg-2)
, which is located in debian stable repository.

Re: General Questions

[David Wright]

On Tue 25 Jul 2023 at 08:18:21 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 07:53:52AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Source Code wrote: 
> > > 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's say up
> > > to 100-200 mb?
> > 
> > That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
> > recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
> > less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
> > uses.
> 
> According to 
> 256 MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm
> on an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.

The numbers on that page look rather suspect (as unchanged since
bullseye) and inconsistent ("With swap enabled, it is possible to
install Debian with as little as 350MB").

But that said, I have installed bookworm (standard system utilities
& SSH server) on a 512MB i386 laptop with no swap. (I add the 1GB
encrypted swap later.) I gave up trying to run Firefox since buster,
but that's more to do with FF versions rather than Debian, I think.

Cheers,
David.

Re: General Questions

[Tim Woodall]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023, Greg Wooledge wrote:


On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 07:53:52AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

Source Code wrote:

3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's say up
to 100-200 mb?


That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
uses.


According to 
256 MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm
on an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.

However, if one is trying to set up a low-memory server of some kind,
especially in a virtual machine or similar environment, that's an
entirely different line of questioning.

I'm guessing that's NOT the goal here, because the OP mentioned WiFi.
This leaves me somewhat perplexed.




FWIW, i don't think a minimal bullseye install will boot under xen with
128MB of ram configured. IIRC Buster will.

Re: General Questions

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 08:51:59PM +0600, Source Code wrote:
> People, how to solve problem with rfkill without install rfkill?
> 
> Вт, 25 июля 2023 г. в 20:31, Michel Verdier :
> 
> > On 2023-07-25, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >
> > >> And about third question, I mean: dwm and awesome wm. They will be
> > >> supported in future too?
> > >
> > > If people use them, and if the upstream developers of these projects
> > > remain active and responsive, they will likely remain in Debian.
> >
> > And about dwm I would add that it's designed to be modified and compiled
> > by end user. And because you can copy its sources it will be forever
> > supported :)
> >
> >

As others have said - top posting is not helpful because it breaks the
flow of questions and answers.

You have a whole lot of questions all at once: can I suggest that you
take a little time to explain

* What you have done to install Debian - was the install successful,
what is missing (if anything) - questions to do with the main install
and any problems you found.
* What sort of machine you are installing on - old/new, how much memory, 
how much disk?
* What you mean to use this for - is this for learning how to use Linux 
or to act as your main machine? Do you have any specific software or
purpose that you need the Debian software to provide?

If you can give us the background so that we can understand, then maybe
we can help you better with fewer messages backwards and forwards.

We are all just people who read this list. There are several of us in
Europe but some may be elsewhere: maybe your questions will not get 
immediate answers and you will perhaps get different opinions.

With best wishes, as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: General Questions

[tomas]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 09:18:10PM +0600, Source Code wrote:
> I'm sorry, Nicolas George, if I offended you. I didn't want it. I'm new
> here and don't know how to post my questions without disturbing anyone. So
> sorry everyone if my questions have distracted you in any way. I will try
> to figure with my problems out myself in future. Thanks everyone!

I think some misunderstanding happened: your tone comes across as
short-and-tough, and therefore the answers are similar.

No bad intentions, I think.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: General Questions

[John Hasler]

Source Code writes:
> So sorry everyone if my questions have distracted you in any way.

Apology accepted.

> I will try to figure with my problems out myself in future.

It's ok to ask for help again.  Just respond politely when people try to
answer your questions.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: General Questions

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 09:18:10PM +0600, Source Code wrote:
> I'm sorry, Nicolas George, if I offended you. I didn't want it. I'm new
> here and don't know how to post my questions without disturbing anyone.i

If there is a language barrier here. maybe posting questions on
debian-russian will be easier?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-russian/

I only guessed at Russian, so sorry if I misidentified your antive
language.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: General Questions

[Source Code]

I'm sorry, Nicolas George, if I offended you. I didn't want it. I'm new
here and don't know how to post my questions without disturbing anyone. So
sorry everyone if my questions have distracted you in any way. I will try
to figure with my problems out myself in future. Thanks everyone!

Вт, 25 июля 2023 г. в 21:05, Nicolas George :

> Source Code (12023-07-25):
> > I have thought I have right to ask any question
>
> Oh, you have the right all right.
>
> And I have a right of not helping you. Which is exactly what I will do
> from now on, since you just spat in my face when I tried to.
>
> --
>   Nicolas George
>

Re: General Questions

[tomas]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 09:02:36PM +0600, Source Code wrote:
> I have thought I have right to ask any question, for get answers which I
> need :(

Yes, you have. But the answers have the right to not be liked
by you, at least not always :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: General Questions

[Nicolas George]

Source Code (12023-07-25):
> I have thought I have right to ask any question

Oh, you have the right all right.

And I have a right of not helping you. Which is exactly what I will do
from now on, since you just spat in my face when I tried to.

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: General Questions

[tomas]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 05:02:09PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
[...]

Oh, forgot the ref:

> Or have a read at the rfkill source [1] [...]

Cheers

[1] https://sources.debian.org/src/rfkill/0.5-1/rfkill.c/
-- 
t


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Re: General Questions

[Source Code]

I have thought I have right to ask any question, for get answers which I
need :(

I have another one question: can I use terminal in Debian Installer without
any problem in the future? What hot keys I need to use? And what’s step in
installer where I can use terminal?
I know about shell in the end of installer, but it is now what I need.

Thanks.

Вт, 25 июля 2023 г. в 20:55, Nicolas George :

> Source Code (12023-07-25):
> > People, how to solve problem with rfkill without install rfkill?
>
> Step 1: get rid of stupid constraints.
>
> Step 2: install rfkill.
>
> Step 3: solve problem.
>
> Step 4: learn what top-posting means.
>
> Step 5: stop doing it.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>   Nicolas George
>

Re: General Questions

[tomas]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 04:54:54PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> Source Code (12023-07-25):
> > People, how to solve problem with rfkill without install rfkill?
> 
> Step 1: get rid of stupid constraints.
> 
> Step 2: install rfkill.

Or have a read at the rfkill source [1] and see what you have to
do to /dev/rfkill to solve "problem with rfkill" (what is the
problem, anyway? And why you don't want to install rfkill?)

> Step 4: learn what top-posting means.
> 
> Step 5: stop doing it.

Yes, please: don't top post: it makes mailing lists very confusing.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: General Questions

[Nicolas George]

Source Code (12023-07-25):
> People, how to solve problem with rfkill without install rfkill?

Step 1: get rid of stupid constraints.

Step 2: install rfkill.

Step 3: solve problem.

Step 4: learn what top-posting means.

Step 5: stop doing it.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: General Questions

[Source Code]

People, how to solve problem with rfkill without install rfkill?

Вт, 25 июля 2023 г. в 20:31, Michel Verdier :

> On 2023-07-25, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>
> >> And about third question, I mean: dwm and awesome wm. They will be
> >> supported in future too?
> >
> > If people use them, and if the upstream developers of these projects
> > remain active and responsive, they will likely remain in Debian.
>
> And about dwm I would add that it's designed to be modified and compiled
> by end user. And because you can copy its sources it will be forever
> supported :)
>
>

Re: General Questions

[Michel Verdier]

On 2023-07-25, Greg Wooledge wrote:

>> And about third question, I mean: dwm and awesome wm. They will be
>> supported in future too?
>
> If people use them, and if the upstream developers of these projects
> remain active and responsive, they will likely remain in Debian.

And about dwm I would add that it's designed to be modified and compiled
by end user. And because you can copy its sources it will be forever
supported :)

Re: General Questions

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 06:26:20PM +0600, Source Code wrote:
> I use Debian on my PC not as a server.
> 
> Using Debian for PC OS is not good? Is it recommended only for servers?
> 

I've only been using it on a PC for 26 years - it is too early to be 
certain whether it is good or not.

> And about third question, I mean: dwm and awesome wm. They will be
> supported in future too?
> 
> It turns out you need free firmware to use wifi? But I can use wifi, but
> only with some DE. I just can't use it just from the start without DE.
> 

Install Network Manager packages. Then use nmtui - network manager text
user interface - to set up your Wifi.

nmcli - command line interface also exists but is harder to use.

dwm and awesome: that depends very much on whether the maintainers 
are there to maintain these.

> Вт, 25 июля 2023 г. в 18:18, Greg Wooledge :
> 
> > On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 07:53:52AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > Source Code wrote:
> > > > 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's
> > say up
> > > > to 100-200 mb?
> > >

A text only interface on the command line with  no graphics and no web
browser - *maybe* - it will depend on the kernel and other utilities 
running. 100MB would be very unlikely.





> > > That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
> > > recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
> > > less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
> > > uses.
> >
> > According to <
> > https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/ch03s04.en.html>
> > 256 MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm
> > on an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.
> >
> > However, if one is trying to set up a low-memory server of some kind,
> > especially in a virtual machine or similar environment, that's an
> > entirely different line of questioning.
> >
> > I'm guessing that's NOT the goal here, because the OP mentioned WiFi.
> > This leaves me somewhat perplexed.
> >
> >

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: Debian as daily driver; WiFi networking and firmware (was: General Questions)

[Michael Kjörling]

On 25 Jul 2023 18:26 +0600, from rifesourcec...@gmail.com (Source Code):
> Using Debian for PC OS is not good? Is it recommended only for servers?

Debian is entirely usable as a daily driver workstation OS. I've been
using it as such for around a decade, possibly longer; I have old
notes and Debian packages dating back to wheezy on my current desktop
system, and I'm quite sure that's not when I started using Debian
specifically.

Debian will, however, _also_ work very well for servers; and many of
the choices one might make to reduce memory footprint (such as not
running a GUI) lend themselves better toward a server installation
than to a workstation setup.


> It turns out you need free firmware to use wifi? But I can use wifi, but
> only with some DE. I just can't use it just from the start without DE.

"Non-free" firmware. Often readily distributable, but does not meet
the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG).

One big change in Debian 12 was to split such firmware out of the
non-free component (where it has been provided since, it appears,
Debian 6/Squeeze) into its own component named non-free-firmware.

Do you have Network Manager installed? Try running "nmcli connection
show" and "iwconfig" when logged in. Do those work?

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: General Questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 06:26:20PM +0600, Source Code wrote:
> I use Debian on my PC not as a server.
> 
> Using Debian for PC OS is not good? Is it recommended only for servers?

Both are common.  Debian aims to be good for any purpose.

> And about third question, I mean: dwm and awesome wm. They will be
> supported in future too?

If people use them, and if the upstream developers of these projects
remain active and responsive, they will likely remain in Debian.

> It turns out you need free firmware to use wifi? But I can use wifi, but
> only with some DE. I just can't use it just from the start without DE.

Totally depends on the device.  There are almost NO wifi devices that
can be used without some non-free firmware.  But some also require a
driver (kernel module) to be built.  Without knowing which device you
have, it's impossible to give exact steps.

Setting up wifi without a GUI is more challenging, but the Debian wiki
has instructions for it.  Of course, those instructions won't work until
the hardware is supported (by installing firmware and/or driver as
needed).

Re: Low-memory Debian (was: General Questions)

[Michael Kjörling]

On 25 Jul 2023 08:18 -0400, from g...@wooledge.org (Greg Wooledge):
>>> 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's say up
>>> to 100-200 mb?
>> 
>> That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
>> recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
>> less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
>> uses.
> 
> According to 
> 256 MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm
> on an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.
> 
> However, if one is trying to set up a low-memory server of some kind,
> especially in a virtual machine or similar environment, that's an
> entirely different line of questioning.

Agreed. I did some experimentation earlier with KVM VMs on an amd64
host and amd64 Debian 12.0; and was able to get it to install
successfully down to 480 MiB RAM (below that the installer would fail
to detect the virtio network interface), and the thus-installed system
would boot with RAM reduced to 246 MiB (not a typo), but below that,
it would fail to boot. That was with a bare minimums text-mode
installed system and using the text-mode installer with a preseed
file installing only the "standard" and "ssh-server" tasks.

Definitely below the specified 256 MiB RAM minimum you'd be on your
own. If you're looking to fit a system into less (at least on amd64),
Debian might not be the distribution for you.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: General Questions

[Source Code]

I use Debian on my PC not as a server.

Using Debian for PC OS is not good? Is it recommended only for servers?

And about third question, I mean: dwm and awesome wm. They will be
supported in future too?

It turns out you need free firmware to use wifi? But I can use wifi, but
only with some DE. I just can't use it just from the start without DE.

Вт, 25 июля 2023 г. в 18:18, Greg Wooledge :

> On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 07:53:52AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Source Code wrote:
> > > 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's
> say up
> > > to 100-200 mb?
> >
> > That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
> > recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
> > less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
> > uses.
>
> According to <
> https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/ch03s04.en.html>
> 256 MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm
> on an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.
>
> However, if one is trying to set up a low-memory server of some kind,
> especially in a virtual machine or similar environment, that's an
> entirely different line of questioning.
>
> I'm guessing that's NOT the goal here, because the OP mentioned WiFi.
> This leaves me somewhat perplexed.
>
>

Re: General Questions

[Joe]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 08:18:21 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 07:53:52AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Source Code wrote:   
> > > 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it?
> > > Let's say up to 100-200 mb?  
> > 
> > That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
> > recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
> > less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
> > uses.  
> 
> According to
>  256
> MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm on
> an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.
> 
> However, if one is trying to set up a low-memory server of some kind,
> especially in a virtual machine or similar environment, that's an
> entirely different line of questioning.
> 
> I'm guessing that's NOT the goal here, because the OP mentioned WiFi.
> This leaves me somewhat perplexed.
> 

Old laptop?

-- 
Joe

Re: General Questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 07:53:52AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Source Code wrote: 
> > 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's say up
> > to 100-200 mb?
> 
> That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
> recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
> less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
> uses.

According to 
256 MB is the absolute minimum amount of RAM for installing bookworm
on an AMD64 machine, using the text installer and no GUI packages.

However, if one is trying to set up a low-memory server of some kind,
especially in a virtual machine or similar environment, that's an
entirely different line of questioning.

I'm guessing that's NOT the goal here, because the OP mentioned WiFi.
This leaves me somewhat perplexed.

Re: General Questions

[Dan Ritter]

Source Code wrote: 
> Hello dear Debian team! I really like this distribution. I use it with
> great pleasure! But I would like to know more about this distribution. I
> wanted to ask you:

debian-users is composed of users of Debian, not a "team".

> 1. After installing Debian without a single desktop environment, there is
> only a web server, ssh server and standard utilities. Is it possible to
> establish a Wi-Fi connection on your own without sudo and internet? If so,
> how? If not, why not? :) Most of commands just don't work because their
> packages can't be downloaded from the internet.

If your wifi hardware is supported without non-free firmware, it
should be working. Therefore, your wifi hardware either needs
non-free firmware, or isn't supported at all.

Most likely, you need to get the appropriate firmware. How did
you install Debian?

You might need to download the correct firmware package on an internet
connected machine, then bring it over to this one and install
it.

'sudo' is not required, but either 'su' or logging in as root is
required to install packages, including firmware.


> 2. Working window managers will continue to be supported, such as dwm,
> awesome?

It is awesome.


> 3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's say up
> to 100-200 mb?

That depends on what you choose to run, and how. I would not
recommend trying to do anything interesting on a machine with
less than 256MB of RAM. That will not be enough for many common
uses.



> 4. Is subscribing there free:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/?

Yes.


-dsr-

General Questions

[Source Code]

Hello dear Debian team! I really like this distribution. I use it with
great pleasure! But I would like to know more about this distribution. I
wanted to ask you:

1. After installing Debian without a single desktop environment, there is
only a web server, ssh server and standard utilities. Is it possible to
establish a Wi-Fi connection on your own without sudo and internet? If so,
how? If not, why not? :) Most of commands just don't work because their
packages can't be downloaded from the internet.

2. Working window managers will continue to be supported, such as dwm,
awesome?

3. Is it possible to reduce RAM consumption? And minimize it? Let's say up
to 100-200 mb?

4. Is subscribing there free:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/?

Re: General questions...

[Steven Maddox (Architect)]

Hi folks,

Thanx for your answers... heres some clarifications...

a) I meant to say Debian XFCE! not Ubuntu XFCE (sorry :D)

b) I have already replaced mousepad for MadEdit (v.nice editor in my 
opinion)


c) I know loads of text editors can do multi-file find/replace - but I 
want to do this on a massive scale, it would mean opening up every text 
file on the file system! - i.e. I want to -on mass- rename something 
unique in all configuration files mentioning it


d) GDebi was the answer to the dpkg thingy - and I prefer it to CLI as 
it will nicely and easily show whats inside it and give an option if you 
want to install or not and see what dependencies are needed etc...


e) I was after some kind of tray icon auto-updater thingy for the XFCE 
Debian to tell me of new updates to Debian 4.0, this is a server however 
(I like GUI's don't sue me) so it would be nice if it just updated 
itself without asking


f) on a bizarre connected note, I know that Debian is *rock solid* 
stable - but when doing an 'apt-get upgrade' I haven't noticed a since 
new thing!  is this normal? has theres really been nothing new since the 
release! - my sources.list is fine btw


I like answers :D keep them coming!
Oh by the way, my previous post a while back about web panels  -  I 
chose SysCP in the end - vry nice :D


Sincerely...

Steven Maddox
(Architect)

Function Office
http://www.functionoffice.com

Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:

Lo

I've a few burning needs, so if anyone knows the answers - let me know! :D

1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and 
getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a 
path change)
2) Ubuntu had a little graphical app that loaded upon double clicking 
DEB files, it let you install them - what is this app? :D
3) I am using the XFCE ubuntu install - does this come with an 
auto-updater, or do I have to install something to get it to do that?


Cheers!




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Re: General questions...

[Raffaele Morelli]

c) I know loads of text editors can do multi-file find/replace - but I
want to do this on a massive scale, it would mean opening up every text
file on the file system! - i.e. I want to -on mass- rename something
unique in all configuration files mentioning it



Don't you like CLI instead a GUI app? a single sed command line will do the
job no matter how massive it is.

f) on a bizarre connected note, I know that Debian is *rock solid*

stable - but when doing an 'apt-get upgrade' I haven't noticed a since
new thing!  is this normal? has theres really been nothing new since the
release! - my sources.list is fine btw



Yes it's rock solid normal.

cheers
raffaele

Re: General questions...

[Kushal Kumaran]

On 5/2/07, Steven Maddox (Architect) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi folks,

Thanx for your answers... heres some clarifications...

snip

f) on a bizarre connected note, I know that Debian is *rock solid*
stable - but when doing an 'apt-get upgrade' I haven't noticed a since
new thing!  is this normal? has theres really been nothing new since the
release! - my sources.list is fine btw



You can subscribe to the debian-security-announce list to know when a
stable security update is released, or look through the archives to
find out the updates released so far.

--
Kushal


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Re: General questions...

[Mitja Podreka]

Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
c) I know loads of text editors can do multi-file find/replace - but I 
want to do this on a massive scale, it would mean opening up every 
text file on the file system! - i.e. I want to -on mass- rename 
something unique in all configuration files mentioning it
Since you like GUI KFileReplace is the thing you are looking for. I use 
it sometimes since it is integrated in Quanta+


regards
Mitja


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Re: General questions...

[Karl E. Jorgensen]

On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 08:54:38AM +0100, Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
 Hi folks,
 
 Thanx for your answers... heres some clarifications...
 
 a) I meant to say Debian XFCE! not Ubuntu XFCE (sorry :D)
 
 b) I have already replaced mousepad for MadEdit (v.nice editor in my 
 opinion)
 
 c) I know loads of text editors can do multi-file find/replace - but I 
 want to do this on a massive scale, it would mean opening up every text 
 file on the file system! - i.e. I want to -on mass- rename something 
 unique in all configuration files mentioning it

On the command line it is easy: 
$ find somedirectory -print0 | xargs -0 perl -pi -e 's/oldtext/newtext/g'

Adjust the find(1) command to locate the right files first before
you pipe it through xargs - massive-scale search/replace could mean
massive-scale mistakes ...

If you want a GUI, then I don't know... (and don't really care :-| )

 f) on a bizarre connected note, I know that Debian is *rock solid* 
 stable - but when doing an 'apt-get upgrade' I haven't noticed a since 
 new thing!  is this normal? has theres really been nothing new since the 
 release! - my sources.list is fine btw

Yes: the stable distribution should only receive security updates:
http://www.debian.org/security

PS: Please don't top-post...

-- 
Karl E. Jorgensen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.jorgensen.org.uk/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://karl.jorgensen.com
 Today's fortune:
No two persons ever read the same book.
-- Edmund Wilson


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Re: General questions...

[John Hasler]

Steven Maddox writes:
 I want to do this on a massive scale, it would mean opening up every text
 file on the file system! - i.e. I want to -on mass- rename something
 unique in all configuration files mentioning it

As others have mentioned this is exactly the sort of problem sed was
invented to solve, but _why_ do you want to do this?  There may be a better
way of reaching your goal.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: General questions...

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/07 02:54, Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
[snip]
 e) I was after some kind of tray icon auto-updater thingy for the XFCE
 Debian to tell me of new updates to Debian 4.0, this is a server however
 (I like GUI's don't sue me) so it would be nice if it just updated
 itself without asking

You want the software on a production server to be automatically and
blindly updated without the SysAdmin to first eye-ball it in order
to make sure that aptitude isn't going to accidentally remove a
critical set of packages?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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=9+IH
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Re: General questions...

[Andrei Popescu]

On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 08:54:38AM +0100, Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:

 b) I have already replaced mousepad for MadEdit (v.nice editor in my 
 opinion)

Sounds interesting, but did you compile from source? It's not in Debian
repos (I'm asking because I'm interested in trying a new editor).

 c) I know loads of text editors can do multi-file find/replace - but I 
 want to do this on a massive scale, it would mean opening up every text 
 file on the file system! - i.e. I want to -on mass- rename something 
 unique in all configuration files mentioning it

Why do you think a text editor can't handle that? If you want highest
speed I think sed is the best.

 e) I was after some kind of tray icon auto-updater thingy for the XFCE 
 Debian to tell me of new updates to Debian 4.0, this is a server however 
 (I like GUI's don't sue me) so it would be nice if it just updated 
 itself without asking

cron-apt can do that, but beware ... I would rather set it up to
download all updates (default?) and send a mail about it.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: General questions...

[Paul Johnson]

Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote in Article [EMAIL PROTECTED]
posted to gmane.linux.debian.user:

 1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and
 getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a
 path change)

krename sounds like what you need, though you might need to use alien and
convert it from an RPM, or compile it yourself.

 2) Ubuntu had a little graphical app that loaded upon double clicking
 DEB files, it let you install them - what is this app? :D

kpackage, though it's usually easier and faster to fire off a 
sudo dpkg -i path to package file
than it is to muck around waiting for kpackage to load.

 3) I am using the XFCE ubuntu install - does this come with an
 auto-updater, or do I have to install something to get it to do that?

If you're using apt to get packages (and you should), you can update all the
packages that dpkg and apt know about with apt-get update  apt-get
dist-upgrade (though some replace apt-get with aptitude with similar
success).

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP  Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: General questions...

[Andrei Popescu]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 02:57:06PM +0100, Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:

 1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and 
 getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a 
 path change)

cream (gvim) text editor can do that. It's called 'Multi-File Replace'.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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General questions...

[Steven Maddox (Architect)]

Lo

I've a few burning needs, so if anyone knows the answers - let me know! :D

1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and 
getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a 
path change)
2) Ubuntu had a little graphical app that loaded upon double clicking 
DEB files, it let you install them - what is this app? :D
3) I am using the XFCE ubuntu install - does this come with an 
auto-updater, or do I have to install something to get it to do that?


Cheers!

--
Sincerely...

Steven Maddox
(Architect)

Function Office
http://www.functionoffice.com


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Re: General questions...

[Andrew J. Barr]

Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
 2) Ubuntu had a little graphical app that loaded upon double clicking
 DEB files, it let you install them - what is this app? :D

gdebi


-- 
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Thunderbird/1.5.0.10 (compatible; Icedove 1.5; X11; en-US; Linux
2.6.21-rc7 x86_64) Debian/1.5.0.10dfsg.1-3

Why must I fail at every attempt at masonry?
-- Homer Simpson, Mom and Pop Art [AABF15]


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Re: General questions...

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
 Lo
 
 I've a few burning needs, so if anyone knows the answers - let me know! :D
 
 1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and
 getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a
 path change)

use any graphical editor with that capabilities. I use kate.

 2) Ubuntu had a little graphical app that loaded upon double clicking
 DEB files, it let you install them - what is this app? :D

CLI: dpkg -i filename

Why would you need a special gui for that? I am sure you could configure
any file manager to do that for you via sudo.

 3) I am using the XFCE ubuntu install - does this come with an
 auto-updater, or do I have to install something to get it to do that?

I don't know how this works on ubuntu. Ask at ubuntu.

On debian, I just look at security advisories and do
aptitude update| dist-upgrade

It would depend on your needs of how/why you would like to automate
updates. This comes up frequently on this list, so just search the
archives.

Cheers,
Johannes
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Re: General questions...

[Alan Ianson]

On Monday 30 April 2007 06:57, Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
 Lo

 I've a few burning needs, so if anyone knows the answers - let me know! :D

 1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and
 getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a
 path change)

Most editors have a search  replace function. kedit's (kde) search  replace 
funtion can be activated with CTRL R. Gedit might be a good candidate for 
XFCE but I'm not sure since I have never tried it.
 
 2) Ubuntu had a little graphical app that loaded upon double clicking
 DEB files, it let you install them - what is this app? :D

kpackage (also kde) is one that I know of, there may be others I haven't 
tried.

 3) I am using the XFCE ubuntu install - does this come with an
 auto-updater, or do I have to install something to get it to do that?

Does XFCE use gnome apps? If so apt-watch-gnome is a good one.


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Re: General questions...

[Celejar]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:11:01 -0700
Alan Ianson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Monday 30 April 2007 06:57, Steven Maddox (Architect) wrote:
  Lo
 
  I've a few burning needs, so if anyone knows the answers - let me know! :D
 
  1) I need a graphical way of searching text files for a string - and
  getting it to replace it (makes for easy re-configuring of files after a
  path change)
 
 Most editors have a search  replace function. kedit's (kde) search  replace 
 funtion can be activated with CTRL R. Gedit might be a good candidate for 
 XFCE but I'm not sure since I have never tried it.

The 'official' Xfce text editor is mousepad, which has standard search
and replace functionality (Menu - Search - Replace - default hotkey
is ctrl-h).

Celejar
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Marc Wilson]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:42:16PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 09:59:22PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote:
  On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote:
   The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
   http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/
  
  Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its
  Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed,
  security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
  versions being packaged for stable.
 
 Hi Marc,
 
 Which browser do you use?

Remember, you asked...

Normally links2 in GUI mode.  It loads almost instantaneously, it's fast,
and since I don't give a rat's ass what designers think their pages are
supposed to look like, the fact that it doesn't do CSS is of no importance.

Mozilla if a page isn't navigable in links2, although high on my worth
bothering with at all criteria list is whether a page is usable in links2,
and I'm much more likely to simply not waste my time visiting pages that
aren't than I am to load an alternative browser.

-- 
 Marc Wilson | A language that doesn't have everything is actually
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | easier to program in than some that do.  -- Dennis
 | M. Ritchie


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 03:11:44PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 I meant what I said.  We have OGo connecting to a previously-existing
 mysql database, for mailshots etc.  It works perfectly well.  I can only
 speak from my experience.

You mean a mail merge?

-- 
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==
Reproduction if desired may be handled locally. -- rfc3


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 09:59:22PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote:
  The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
  http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/
 
 Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its
 Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed,
 security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
 versions being packaged for stable.

Hi Marc,

Which browser do you use?

-- 
Chris.
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Reproduction if desired may be handled locally. -- rfc3


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Juraj Fedel]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 10:22:02AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
 Clarification:
 When etch transitions from Testing to Stable, all the packages
 (including, by that time, OpenOffice.org 2) will stay in etch/Stable.

Is there any known timeline when this my happen?
Juraj Fedel


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Jon Dowland]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:29:35AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 13:46 +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote:
  Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy
  so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge.
 
 I thought that in those cases they actually bumped up the version
 number.

Me too - slightly disturbed they haven't. Any idea why not?

-- 
Jon Dowland
http://jon.dowland.name/


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2005-11-20 at 09:52 +0100, Juraj Fedel wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 10:22:02AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
  Clarification:
  When etch transitions from Testing to Stable, all the packages
  (including, by that time, OpenOffice.org 2) will stay in etch/Stable.
 
 Is there any known timeline when this my happen?

No, not really.  There are plans and desires and hopes, but they
bear no reflection on reality. :(

That's one of the reason why people who use testing and/or Sid
stick with those branches.

-- 
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There's no obfuscated Perl contest because it's pointless.
Jeff Polk


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Hi Antony,

Am 2005-11-15 11:11:02, schrieb Antony Gelberg:

 It's not that simple.  A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable
 because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what
 to do when their system breaks.

HOW can a newbie come to TESTING or UNSTABLE?

A newbie which come to our website, WILL download STABLE.

A newbie who downloads TESTING or UNSTABLE was following directions
by other people WHICH KNOW how to use it.

I have never recommended to newbies downloading TESTING or UNSTABLE
because I am aware of the problems...

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-11-17 08:48:33, schrieb loos:

 1. Normal = most of them does just that.

I do not know ONE newbie which is using TESTING or UNSTABLE.

 2. Debian unstable is just as good as a stable Fedora, etc.

My Development Workstation was broken several times in the last 4
month.  There was no chance for newbies to get it running again.
 
 3. By having problems, which on unstable are rapidly resolved (1 week)
 they actually learn a lot. Beginning with a little patience.

You mean those guys which send then wit M$ Outlook Express to
the Debian lists and break mail threads where you do not find
the singel messages in your Mailbox ?

 4. They usually don't price stability at all since they don't devellop
 for anything, they just use.

???
 
Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Curt Howland]

 HOW can a newbie come to TESTING or UNSTABLE?

I did. Testing, specifically, and ran into all the trouble one would 
expect.

 A newbie which come to our website, WILL download STABLE.

False. There are more examples than just I. Unless, of course, by 
our you mean some other web site than Debian.org.

 A newbie who downloads TESTING or UNSTABLE was following directions
 by other people WHICH KNOW how to use it.

False again. I came to Debian having never used Linux before, nor 
knowing any more than Hey, check out this Linux thing from one 
coworker. My decision was based entirely on reading the Debian web 
page, which has not changed substantially in structure since then.

 I have never recommended to newbies downloading TESTING or UNSTABLE
 because I am aware of the problems...

Which is exactly what I was informed of when I, having problems with 
Testing, started asking questions in the Debian-user forum.

 Greetings
 Michelle

Curt-



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planning advocates in American history


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[loos]

  newbie - unstable, that's normal. If you like it that way. And they will
  learn a lot.
 
 Why is it normal for a newbie to use unstable?  It's usually an initial
 period of look at me, I'm using Debian without having to use their
 cruddy old software followed by a cry for help, either here or on IRC,
 when they hose their system and can't fix it.
 
1. Normal = most of them does just that.
2. Debian unstable is just as good as a stable Fedora, etc.
3. By having problems, which on unstable are rapidly resolved (1 week)
they actually learn a lot. Beginning with a little patience.
4. They usually don't price stability at all since they don't devellop
for anything, they just use.
 
  For who is stable: Experts, sysadmins etc. That a fantastic base where
  you can build anything fot it and be sure you can put in production
  anywhere because the base is the same. Stable is our Solaris, in their
  sense Stable is the most advanced distribution
 
 All very romantic, but not too factual.
 
That's the way I see it used around me.

Michel.



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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-11-13 03:43:00, schrieb Oliver Lupton:

  Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been
  due to security issues.
 
 Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as
 mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the
 '-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth
 security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package.
 
 At least, that's how I understand it :)

...and it is 1.07 but renamed!

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-11-12 21:59:22, schrieb Marc Wilson:

 Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its
 Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed,
 security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
 versions being packaged for stable.
 
 This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security
 fixes in it.  I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for
 sure.

No, 1.04 has NONE 1.07 security fixes in it.

1.04 from Sarge IS the version 1.07 from Etch.

Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy
so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge.

Please consider rteading the changelog.

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-11-14 23:27:29, schrieb Antony Gelberg:
 Michael Marsh wrote:
 
  In short, the patched version of Firefox in sarge is *not* 1.0.7, so
  calling it 1.0.7 would be a mistake.
  
 
 Um, as I've said elsewhere in this thread, it is a newer upstream
 version than 1.0.4.  Not sure exactly what version it is, though.

You mean:

  __( 'stdin' )_
 /
| Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:06:47 +0200 (CEST)
| To: debian-security-announce@lists.debian.org (Debian Security Announcements)
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Martin Schulze)
| Subject: [SECURITY] [DSA 779-2] New Mozilla Firefox packages fix several 
vulnerabilities
| 
| --
| Debian Security Advisory DSA 779-2 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| http://www.debian.org/security/ Martin Schulze
| September 1st, 2005 http://www.debian.org/security/faq
| --
| 
| Package: mozilla-firefox
| Vulnerability  : several
| Problem-Type   : remote
| Debian-specific: no
| CVE ID : CAN-2005-2260 CAN-2005-2261 CAN-2005-2262 CAN-2005-2263
|  CAN-2005-2264 CAN-2005-2265 CAN-2005-2266 CAN-2005-2267
|  CAN-2005-2268 CAN-2005-2269 CAN-2005-2270
| BugTraq ID : 14242
| Debian Bug : 318061
| 
| We experienced that the update for Mozilla Firefox from DSA 779-1
| unfortunately was a regression in several cases.  Since the usual
^^^
| praxis of backporting apparently does not work, this update is
  ^^
| basically version 1.0.6 with the version number rolled back, and hence
  ^^
| still named 1.0.4-*.  For completeness below is the original advisory
  ^^^

snip

| Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 alias sarge
| - 
| 
|   Source archives:
| 
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3.dsc
|   Size/MD5 checksum: 1001 e9e343d5899bc10b64650464839db1dc
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3.diff.gz
|   Size/MD5 checksum:   323682 3e07c7d42de155ed01210386bc2f06f7
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4.orig.tar.gz
|   Size/MD5 checksum: 40212297 8e4ba81ad02c7986446d4e54e978409d
| 
|   Intel IA-32 architecture:
| 
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb
|   Size/MD5 checksum:  8889628 c7730b4e3df2f6a0bb12186a52884a9e
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox-dom-inspector_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb
|   Size/MD5 checksum:   156844 806fd550f9a5283e4fab73443c73fbcd
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox-gnome-support_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb
|   Size/MD5 checksum:54096 9eb9d71896406a619bd186bfe10ed0f2
| 
 \__


Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-11-13 11:32:16, schrieb Antony Gelberg:
 Bruce Hohl wrote:
  OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software.
 
 snip
 
 Why?

Because you will need biger CPU's and more memory in your
computer which will make the manufacturer richer.  :-P

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-11-12 17:05:54, schrieb Antony Gelberg:
 Antony Gelberg wrote:

  http://www.debian.doc/releases might help you understand how releases
  work in Debian.
 
 Oops. s/doc/com

| s/com/org/


Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 13:46 +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote:
 Am 2005-11-12 21:59:22, schrieb Marc Wilson:
 
  Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its
  Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed,
  security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
  versions being packaged for stable.
  
  This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security
  fixes in it.  I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for
  sure.
 
 No, 1.04 has NONE 1.07 security fixes in it.
 
 1.04 from Sarge IS the version 1.07 from Etch.
 
 Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy
 so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge.

I thought that in those cases they actually bumped up the version
number.

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PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 01:26:50AM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 
  I think users need to get back to learning a little.  I was asked by a
  customer yesterday why Thunderbird doesn't capitalise the H in Hello
  like Outlook (Word) does.  I was too speechless to suggest just typing
  properly.
  
  In fact most tools that I have seen that are designed to be operated
  with no knowledge of the subject, produce inferior output.
 
 Even granting this arguendo, it lets a non-techie somewhere produce
 SOMETHING, in an hour, that does what he needs, without hiring you or me to
 do it for him.
 
 So it's inefficent.  So what?

Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty
DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization
(or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale
and/or is full of bad data.

Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to
design databases.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:23 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 Ron Johnson wrote:
  On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
  
 Steve Lamb wrote:
 
 Andy Streich wrote:
[snip]
 No, it's not, and that's not what I said.  I was pointing out that
 encouraging newbies to use testing or unstable, is possibly not the best
 idea ever.

As long as they go in with a reasonable amount of disclosure as
to the differences between stable  testing/unstable, I don't see
why not.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Carl Fink]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:40:32AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:

  So it's inefficent.  So what?
 
 Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty
 DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization
 (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale
 and/or is full of bad data.

And you know that this will happen in every case, of course.

And this hurts the developer that gets hired to produce the new database
how?
 
 Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to
 design databases.

Don't assume it's impossible to do both well, and I won't laugh in your
face.
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 22:41 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:40:32AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
  On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
 
   So it's inefficent.  So what?
  
  Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty
  DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization
  (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale
  and/or is full of bad data.
 
 And you know that this will happen in every case, of course.
 
 And this hurts the developer that gets hired to produce the new database
 how?

That's if a developer is hired to fix it.  They might just decide
to limp along with it like it is.

Your original point, though, was inefficiency, and hiring a DB
developer to fix a borken app is definitely less efficient than
doing it right in the 1st place.
 
  Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to
  design databases.
 
 Don't assume it's impossible to do both well, and I won't laugh in your
 face.

Impossible is a 'big' word.  I'm sure there are some people who
are expert in both HR regulations and DB design and implementation.

Darn few, though, and probably work for HR outsourcing firms.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[loos]

\
 

 9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice
  This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000
  and therefore could not be executed (started).


Bad idea, there are a lot of steps between 000 and 777
Don't ever use 777
It is a program you don't need write permission: 755 seems more
apropriate

Michel. 
 

 


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Carl Fink]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:33:37PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:

[OpenOffice.org's new database-front-end capabilities]

 I'd still like to know what, in business terms if you like, you can do
 with this, that you cannot do with e.g. LAMP.

It's a weird question.  There's nothing there you can't do with dBASE III,
either, or COBOL on an IBM System/370.

What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate
and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW.
-- 
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Steve Lamb]

Carl Fink wrote:
 What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate
 and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW.

Ah... you mean inefficiently and incorrectly.  Got it.

-- 
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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Carl Fink]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 04:52:55PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
 Carl Fink wrote:
  What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate
  and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW.
 
 Ah... you mean inefficiently and incorrectly.  Got it.

Ah, you're a posturing tech snob.  Got it.

Heck, I've only done actual work with dBASE III and on S/370s. 
-- 
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If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Bruce Hohl]

--- loos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  9- # chmod 777
  /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice
  This step seemed but soffice was installed
  with mode 000 and therefore could not be executed
  (started).
 
 
 Bad idea, there are a lot of steps between 000 and
777
 Don't ever use 777
 It is a program you don't need write permission: 755
 seems more
 apropriate
 
 Michel. 
  
 
Thanks, So noted, and changed to 755.



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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Carl Fink]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 01:26:50AM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:

 I think users need to get back to learning a little.  I was asked by a
 customer yesterday why Thunderbird doesn't capitalise the H in Hello
 like Outlook (Word) does.  I was too speechless to suggest just typing
 properly.
 
 In fact most tools that I have seen that are designed to be operated
 with no knowledge of the subject, produce inferior output.

Even granting this arguendo, it lets a non-techie somewhere produce
SOMETHING, in an hour, that does what he needs, without hiring you or me to
do it for him.

So it's inefficent.  So what?
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 Steve Lamb wrote:
  Andy Streich wrote:
  
 latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after 
 reading 
 this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also 
 really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
 stable.  
  
  
  Why be so hung up on release cycles?  I mean, really.  You know how much
  attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing?  Well, 
  other
  than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none.  Again, it has to be stressed,
  there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they 
  choose
  to a later version.  None.  At all.  Stable just means it won't be updated 
  out
  from under you.  That's *it*.  You want newer, go get newer!  Have fun!
  Debian won't be upset, I promise.
 
 It's not that simple.  A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable
 because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what
 to do when their system breaks.

So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort
to read the Debian web site?

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[loos]

Em Ter, 2005-11-15 às 16:44 -0600, Ron Johnson escreveu:
 On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
  Steve Lamb wrote:
   Andy Streich wrote:
   
  latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after 
  reading 
  this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but 
  also 
  really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
  stable.  
   
   
   Why be so hung up on release cycles?  I mean, really.  You know how 
   much
   attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing?  Well, 
   other
   than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none.  Again, it has to be stressed,
   there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they 
   choose
   to a later version.  None.  At all.  Stable just means it won't be 
   updated out
   from under you.  That's *it*.  You want newer, go get newer!  Have fun!
   Debian won't be upset, I promise.
  
  It's not that simple.  A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable
  because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what
  to do when their system breaks.
 
 So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort
 to read the Debian web site?

newbie - testing is totally antinomic. It is impossible for a newbie to
use testing reasonabl and provide the expected feedback.

newbie - unstable, that's normal. If you like it that way. And they will
learn a lot.

For who is stable: Experts, sysadmins etc. That a fantastic base where
you can build anything fot it and be sure you can put in production
anywhere because the base is the same. Stable is our Solaris, in their
sense Stable is the most advanced distribution

Michel.

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Bruce Hohl]

  It's not that simple.  A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable   because they "have" to have the newest stuff, then they don't know   what to do when their system breaks.   So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort  to read the Debian web site?  Gentlemen: My original question has morphed into something other than I intended. Firstly, I did not whine about Debian. I simply stated IMHO OpenOffice 2 is an important piece of software, important enough to get into Testing ASAP and provide debs for Sarge. No one has to agree with my *opinion*. It is simply feedback from someone who has used Linux for three years (I'm only a newbie to Debian).  Secondly, I did in fact make an effort to determine if I could get OpenOffice onto Sarge easily (i.e. from a repository or deb packages - these options do not yet appear available). More and
 more I want Linux to be easy to use, stable (as in Sarge), open, and have good software - this led me to Debian. I "need" OO Base because I need an MS Access like application for Linux, and I need it now! Access has been around for like 10+ years.  The following are my install notes for OO2 on Debian Sarge.  More formal instruction can be found at: http://download.openoffice.org/2.0.0/instructions.html.  I have not yet used 002 enough to state that all works well and that it is stable on Sarge :).   OpenOffice 2.0 Install (my notes) = 0- Uninstall your current OpenOffice version.  If you keep it see the README files.  1- Make sure Jave 1.4+ is installed:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] dpkg -l jre*  ii j2re1.4 1.4.2.01-1 Blackdown Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment  OK.
   2- If not download and install (or from apt-get):   http://www.java.com/en/download/linux_manual.jsp  3- Download OpenOffice 2.0 from www.openoffice.org  File is OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz  4- # mv OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz /opt   5- # tar -xvzf OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz   6- # alien --to-deb *.rpm  # rm *.rpm (no longer needed)  7- # cp desktop-integration/*.deb ./  8- # dpkg -i *.deb   9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice  This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000  and therefore could not be executed (started). 
		 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

 

 

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 18:25 -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote:
   It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or
 unstable
   because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know
   what to do when their system breaks.
 
  So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort
  to read the Debian web site?
 
 Gentlemen:
 My original question has morphed into something other than I intended.
 Firstly, I did not whine about Debian.  I simply stated

It's the generic newbie... :)

  IMHO OpenOffice 2 is an important piece of software, important enough
 to get into Testing ASAP and provide debs for Sarge.  No one has to
 agree with my *opinion*.  It is simply feedback from someone who has
 used Linux for three years (I'm only a newbie to Debian).
 
 Secondly, I did in fact make an effort to determine if I could get
 OpenOffice onto Sarge easily (i.e. from a repository or deb packages -
 these options do not yet appear available).  More and more I want
 Linux to be easy to use, stable (as in Sarge), open, and have good
 software - this led me to Debian.  I need OO Base because I need an
 MS Access like application for Linux, and I need it now!  Access has
 been around for like 10+ years.

Either upgrade to Sid or look for it at apt-get.org :
http://www1.apt-get.org/search.php?query=openoffice.orgsubmit=arch%5B%
5D=i386arch%5B%5D=all and search for 2.0.0.  Maybe it's
compiled for Etch.

And search thru the debian-openoffice mailing list archives to
see what's preventing it from moving into Etch.

I *guarantee* you that there is a very good reason why it hasn't
yet been moved to Etch.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not
simpler.
Albert Einstein


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[loos]

Em Dom, 2005-11-13 às 17:19 -0500, Carl Fink escreveu:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote:
  Carl Fink wrote:
 
  Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway?
   
  That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone 
  certainly has different needs in applications.
 
 That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating
 system.
 
 A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available
 for it.  That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't
 included.
 
 
They are included in the unstable distribution (whose programs are
stable).
The latest programs, by the very definition of stable, can not be
included in stable. If you change the programs included in a stable it
isn't stable anymore.
You run stable in order to have a perfectly stable bases on which you
can build your computer. This way when something goes wrong it is very
easy to find the responsible.

Michel.

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

[Carl Fink]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:39:07PM -0200, loos wrote:
 Em Dom, 2005-11-13 ?s 17:19 -0500, Carl Fink escreveu:
  On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote:
   Carl Fink wrote:
  
   Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things 
   anyway?

   That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone 
   certainly has different needs in applications.
  
  That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating
  system.
  
  A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available
  for it.  That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't
  included.
  
  
 They are included in the unstable distribution (whose programs are
 stable).

Absolutely true and completely irrelevant to my point.
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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