Re: slashdot poll
Interesting message from Keith ... What Keith has done here is list the advantages of Debian over Redhat. I agree with every point he has listed. RH is great, providing you want to follow their rules. I know a lot of people who don't run X, they don't need it. Do we really want Debian just to be a clone of Redhat?
Re: slashdot poll
How about suggesting some improvements, rather than I don't like the Debian install? [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I find deselect as the only problem with debian. The update section really needs work. Actually, I'd say the `Access' and `Select' screens need work, especially Select. Now I remember, it asks for a directory at the site you selected and if you haven't been there before How about an `official ftp site' access method? Connects to ftp.debian.org, downloads list of mirrors, gets the user to pick nearest one. No need to ask for directories. Now Select... I'm not aware of any other program in Linux that'd need to show the help screen first up. Let's see if I can think of them: * When a bar is moved on up and down by arrow keys, the user expects a menu; the Enter key should do something to the entry on which the bar is (either install or toggle install/remove). * The correct sequence for 'find again' is an empty search string (ie Slash-Enter). * There's no way to collapse the listing - so I have to page through the Up-to-date packages to get to the Available packages. (Parts of the listing could perhaps be collapsed into lines that say 42 packages etc - pressing Enter on one expands it out again.) * The d and u keys are unusual; not sure how to fix that easily. * The description of the O, o, I and i keys is rather terse; also, it may be easier to pick from a menu than to cycle twice through just to see the options. * The formulation Obsolete/local is unclear. * Once a package is installed, there seems to be no way to see the recursive dependency screen again (eg to find a suggested package). That'll do for today Jiri -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] We'll know the future has arrived when every mailer transparently quotes lines that begin with From , but no-one remembers why.
Re: media attention (was: RE: slashdot poll)
Robert V. MacQuarrie wrote: On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, ivan wrote: IMHO, the reason RH leads is because they are a fully fledged commercial dist. which attracts media attention and advertising. This is completely true and unfortune for Debian right now. SNIP Is it, though? I always thought of Debian as catering to a mostly different public. Debian is already a quality distribution, seemingly based on having an awful lot of people who just pitch in and contribute, very much in the Free Software tradition. I think, on its own terms, Debian is hitting the nail right between the eyes already. Once the critical mass of developer/maintainer support is reached, Debian is as popular as it needs to be. People who want what it offers *will* be able to find it, even if the majority still choose RedHat et al. It's not like Debian is obscure or anything. What does engaging in some market-share competititiveness with other distributions gain it? IMHO, Debian is already the distribution of choice for people who either want a more explicit commitment to the FS ideal, dislike RH and the other commercial approaches (for whatever reason), or like its reputation for technical solidity. $0.02, just mine. -- Joel Gluth joel-at-n-space-dot-com-dot-au Software Engineer, N-Space Adelaide. http://www.n-space.com.au I am the future.-- Senator Dan Quayle
Re: slashdot poll
How about suggesting some improvements, rather than I don't like the Debian install? The people I've talked to mention that RedHat's install is more of a one screen, ask one question mode. Debian's (at least the last time I did a full install) used a more complicated screen layout. Newbies want simplicity combined with the feeling of being a techie. (No, it's not an oxymoron.) One person I talked to was overwhelmed by Debian's full menu of choices. Even though it was simple enough to me (and I liked the idea of being able to jump out of order, execute a shell, etc.), and even though the full menu led him through the steps by simply smacking Enter, he was intimidated by it. Go figure. ;-) To me, the roughest part of any Linux install is the partitioning. This ought to be taken very carefully, and there has to be a lot of help for people. In addition, a dummy mode for partitioning should be created -- something like saying, Okay, I'll create a big partition and a swap partition. If a dummy mode is used, then the entire sequence about asking to mount partitions should be skipped. Now, the tough part in such a dummy mode would be handling someone who has Win95 still installed, etc., etc. I think overall we could eliminate a *lot* of the prompts in an install just by making assumptions. Perhaps a two-mode install should be used: expert and novice mode. Ask the expert everything, let them have full power. In the novice mode, cut down on the prompts the user gets. For example, why ask a novice user if they want to check for bad blocks or not? Just either do it or not. Some sort of novice install could eliminate a lot of clutter and simply things greatly. The other suggestion I'd make -- especially for something like a novice mode -- would be to pretty things up. Yes, I know it sounds dumb. But for newbies it does matter. Let me take a wild example. In a novice mode, we can probably assume (and could detect) a VGA video system. Why not put the system into graphics mode for a moment, grab a bunch of trivial system information (RAM, BIOS date, CPU copyright string, any foolish thing! Oh, we can't forget the BogoMIPS! :-) and flash a picture of Tux (or our Debian logo) and say Welcome to Debian GNU/Linux and display the various system data. Totally trivial right? I'd say so. But you'd be amazed at how many newbies will be impressed... Now, if anyone's thinking of doing such a thing, one final request. Please don't put that into the expert mode -- I know my CPU copyright string. ;-) -- Regards,| Windows98 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a . | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 Randy | bit operating system originally coded for ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) | a 4 bit microprocessor written by a 2 bit http://www.golgotha.net | company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
Re: slashdot poll
Kent West wrote: To sum up: 1) better help screens in base install, 2) better help screens in pppconfig, 3) a no-fuss minimal X install that any idiot can get going. Coming from the standpoint of someone who isn't an IT professional and an admitted pc novice and Linux idiot; I'd like to say I agree with this. I found the base instillation to be easier than I imagined but then I imagined I wouldn't be able to install the base for a few days. It took me an afternoon. I remember very little about the process because I had no idea what I was doing. I would have loved to have had more information about the options I was choosing. I just guessed a number of times. I can understand it might be cumbersome to have unneeded info during the instillation process for knowledgeable people but you could actually streamline the process and provide more info if you arranged the menu along the lines of: Do you want ppp capability?y/n i If you don't know what ppp is press i Which would display a clear explanation of what ppp is and why you may or may not want it. At the bottom of the explanation you would be asked the question again. Do you want ppp capability?y/n i Something along those lines. Maybe a bad example but you get my drift. I'm not in the position to write such a script but if someone is and would like to, I'd be willing to be the sounding board for what is written. A demo installation script could be put on a web site and a group could work on it. I don't understand how making something easy to install makes it less configurable later but if I could have both (ease and configurability) I would add to the above list: 4. sound 5. printer 6. email/browser Anyway I have learned a lot more than I did know two months ago about computers and have enjoyed Debian very much:) Kent
Re: slashdot poll
From what I've heard so far, something in-between linux kernel configuration (menuconfig, xconfig) and a Win95's Wizards like interface is what is primarily wanted from new-to-linux guys? Christian
re: slashdot poll
I thought I would input my couple of pence worth to this discussion. I am very much a Linux newbie but I am not exactly an idiot when it comes to computers. I have been using computers for 10 years going back to my humble XT. I have recently installed RH5.1, SuSE 5.3 and Deb 2.0 and I would like to comment a bit about each of them. 1stly both RH and SuSE made a mess of my hard disk when partitioning causing me to play safe and use partition magic to do the bsiness untill I am confident with Linux I am using Deb on a Logical partition and a boot manager to dual boot with Win98( I was using NT as it ran a my some of my programs batter than 98). Both RH and SuSE had no problems setting up my lilo.conf to work with this system. Unless I have missed it Deb install dosent do this it only allows for a primary partition to be activated. Needless to say using a floppy to boot and then writing a lil.conf file is no picnic for a newbie luckiy I had a copy of Que Using Linux(far to much RH for my liking) which had a sample conf file which worked with out a hitch. SuSE's Yast informed me half-way through installing packages that the partition was full and I was unable to proceed without re partitioning and re-installing. Now I do not know wether Dselect can do this but it would be nice if it estimated the space needed to install packages and reported any problems. RH ran fine when I got it installed but SuSE kept locking up for periods of 20 sec when it was executing a program. I am using Debian now as a friend recommended it as the most stable. It is a very steep learning curve but I will stick it out and some day I will say goodbye to win/dos for good. Noel
Re: slashdot poll
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Randy Edwards wrote: I think overall we could eliminate a *lot* of the prompts in an install just by making assumptions. Perhaps a two-mode install should be used: expert and novice mode. Ask the expert everything, let them have full power. you could easily go even farther than that? OK, this might be impractical, but it sounds easy... Each step could be assigned (internally) a ranking according to user knowledge: 1 = what's a computer ---to--- 10 = Linus at the beginning of the install, you rank yourself. Then, for each step, 1) Explanation is automatically offered if it ranks higher than you AND 2) a default config is assumed if it ranks higher than you. You could make it so that the explanation is also available in expert modes via a help button This is Michael's suggestion v0.1 Just an idea. -Michael Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305
Re: slashdot poll
you could easily go even farther than that? OK, this might be impractical, but it sounds easy... Each step could be assigned (internally) a ranking according to user knowledge: 1 = what's a computer ---to--- 10 = Linus at the beginning of the install, you rank yourself. Then, for each step, 1) Explanation is automatically offered if it ranks higher than you AND 2) a default config is assumed if it ranks higher than you. You could make it so that the explanation is also available in expert modes via a help button My worry here is that it's starting to get big Matthew -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Steward of the Cambridge Tolkien Society Selwyn College Computer Support http://www.cam.ac.uk/CambUniv/Societies/tolkien/ http://pick.sel.cam.ac.uk/ Debian GNU/Hurd - love at first byte
Re: slashdot poll
What do people like about RH? Is it worth trying to nick parts of their install? I found it a pain - It wouldn't let me just install individual packages, though I wonder whether some of the modconf stuff could be left out for the initial install. Maybe people like the RH install because they are familar with a Microsoft GUI install. They perceive that a GUI install screen must be superior to a text screen. I don't think trying to compete with redhat is going to achieve a lot. Redhat can throw money at the producing a nice looking install, whereas debian relies on volunteers. Surely it would be better to concentrate on an official SLINK release, more packages, etc ... If someone feels strongly that a GUI install is essential, do it yourself.
Re: slashdot poll
If an F1 motor was put into a mini-van body would it be any less powerful or more difficult to actually start ? It would be a complete disaster. Yes it would be a pain to start, the clutch would melt and the flywheel would go into orbit around mars. Maybe a better analogy would be replacing the manual transmission with an automatic. More comfort for some, but utterly annoying for others who like to push their machine. Now let me tell you about my cute little gold 306 GTI
Re: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Paul Seelig wrote: On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, William Schwartz wrote: -- snip When i tested Redhat this was one of the most definitive turn offs. One needed to have X11 up and running to have access to a rather strange package management frontend. Actually dselect is terrible in ergonomic terms and intuitive usage but at least it works and does it's job far better than this RPM frontend under X11. And it even works well when you take the time to read the documentation to get aquainted with it's somewhat awkward handling. I even began to like it to some degree. But then there is SuSE... Reasonable people can differ about the merits of the installation and maintenance procedures, and Unix is richer for having several choices. The real issue is adhering to a common file system layout. I would like to see the day when a single binary package can be installed on Red Hat, Debian, Suse, Slackeware FBSD, etc; The binary package should come with its own uninstall script. The issue of GUI's, administrative interfaces, etc. is IMHO much less important. King Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: slashdot poll
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Richard Lyon wrote: What do people like about RH? Is it worth trying to nick parts of their install? I found it a pain - It wouldn't let me just install individual packages, though I wonder whether some of the modconf stuff could be left out for the initial install. Maybe people like the RH install because they are familar with a Microsoft GUI install. They perceive that a GUI install screen must be superior to a text screen. This is quite true. RH was my first distro and I found the install screens a lot more confortable. Unfortunately, gui install screens doesn't mean a better installation. With RH you will install packages you'll never use or even ever know you have. Plus a lot of them are broken. Doesn't RH test their packages? It's better to start at the base and work your way up. Don't change debian. I like it's installation just the way it is. My debian box is just as functional when I installed all the software I normally use when I had RH5.2 and it's way way smaller. 100s of megs in fact. I wonder what the hell I had that filled all that space? hmmm. John I don't think trying to compete with redhat is going to achieve a lot. Redhat can throw money at the producing a nice looking install, whereas debian relies on volunteers. Surely it would be better to concentrate on an official SLINK release, more packages, etc ... If someone feels strongly that a GUI install is essential, do it yourself.
Re: slashdot poll
Keith G. Murphy wrote: Kenneth Scharf wrote: Actually it's not that Debian is built to be hard to use. It's just that many of the 'pretty' system control and configure applications supplied by RH are not in Debian. (Besides they only work in X) As someone who has recently come to use Debian from a year or two of RedHat experience, I can say that the non-X-based nature of dselect can be a distinct advantage when you're trying to configure a server machine (damn thing sure doesn't need X). I mean, I just telnetted into it and did everything from my (Win95!) client. And what about installation on an old machine that doesn't have a CDROM? dselect was quite FTP-friendly; I couldn't get a RedHat installation to work at all on this old machine that had only 8M and antiquated hardware. There are more Debian floppies but, guess what? Debian saw all my hardware right first try. I think a lot of those folks that love RedHat only use it on their home machine with the latest and greatest nifty hardware, sitting at its console. But that may well not be the most useful application of Linux... And another thing: a lot of those X-based configuration things don't work that well. I know that for sure... ;-) And the way dselect goes ahead and invokes configuration scripts: rpm definitely does *not* do that; so if the package really requires configuration beyond the defaults, you need to figure out how to do it. Not to mention the way you can load packages down from the web really easily. I mean, hell, it even tells you when there's an updated package! So far, Debian seems to me like a workhorse: it may not be flashy, but everything just *works*. That beats flash every time in my book. And another thing: the transparency with which Debian is managed. What the hell do I mean? You can see the whole bug-tracking process. Try that with RedHat. Right... And the way they segregate the non-free stuff. It's not that you can't use it; you just know what you're getting. That's not ideology for me; that's just knowing what's going on my system: it's damn *useful* to know what's GNU-licensed and what's STING (Stuff That Is Not GNU). It *is* a sting when it doesn't work right and you want to change it... And is it just me, or is everybody and his mother putting out RPMs these days, some of very shoddy quality? I have the impression, if it's a deb and it's on Debian's site, it's gonna at least install properly and do *something* without crapping out... Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Especially hearing folks bitch about dselect. I just hope apt is as good. (It's not X-based, is it? Say it's not...) Hope the new logo is good. I kind of like the little bird... [cut] -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Mauro Mazzieri - http://gulliver.unian.it/~mazzieri/ finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP key and geek code I PC hanno il tasto `reset' perché sono progettati per i sistemi operativi Microsoft Keith G. Murphy wrote: Kenneth Scharf wrote: Actually it's not that Debian is built to be hard to use. It's just that many of the 'pretty' system control and configure applications supplied by RH are not in Debian. (Besides they only work in X) As someone who has recently come to use Debian from a year or two of RedHat experience, I can say that the non-X-based nature of dselect can be a distinct advantage when you're trying to configure a server machine (damn thing sure doesn't need X). I mean, I just telnetted into it and did everything from my (Win95!) client. And what about installation on an old machine that doesn't have a CDROM? dselect was quite FTP-friendly; I couldn't get a RedHat installation to work at all on this old machine that had only 8M and antiquated hardware. There are more Debian floppies but, guess what? Debian saw all my hardware right first try. I think a lot of those folks that love RedHat only use it on their home machine with the latest and greatest nifty hardware, sitting at its console. But that may well not be the most useful application of Linux... And another thing: a lot of those X-based configuration things don't work that well. I know that for sure... ;-) And the way dselect goes ahead and invokes configuration scripts: rpm definitely does *not* do that; so if the package really requires configuration beyond the defaults, you need to figure out how to do it. Not to mention the way you can load packages down from the web really easily. I mean, hell, it even tells you when there's an updated package! So far, Debian seems to me like a workhorse: it may not be flashy, but everything just *works*. That beats flash every time in my book. And another thing: the transparency with which Debian is managed. What the hell do I mean? You can see the whole bug-tracking process. Try that with RedHat. Right... And the way they segregate
RE: slashdot poll
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:06:51 - (GMT), Pollywog wrote: Well, hell, if that is all it takes to be full up to speed I can claim, with confidence, that I've had two Debian installs up on the net in under 15 minutes. Mind you, that was just the base install of 8 disks, but it was up on the net. :) Yes, but was it your first time, knowing nothing about UNIX or Linux? No. But then my first time with Red Hat after 1 year of Slackware usage (which was my first Linux exposure) yielded an unusable mess after over an hour of frustration. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBNsDNwXpf7K2LbpnFEQLgnwCgn2k/z9Uao//0xCmyZF//eH31+tYAoLfM NFA6vdEr3RhugqTSXLusK4L+ =JPom -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: slashdot poll
Paul Seelig wrote: On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, M.C. Vernon wrote: RH is a commercially-based distro, so they can spend loads of cash on advertising etc, so they are the most popular, despite Debian's inherantly free-er nature, and techincal superiority Redhat is a distribution geared at ease of use. That's why Linus himself uses Redhat and not Debian. Debian with all it's technical superiority would definitely benefit from becoming a bit more user friendly as well. This should be possible without dumbing down or sacrificing technical advantages but might in the contrary actually add to it's overall quality. I my oppinion this would be hard to do (make Debian easier without sacrifices). To be technically superior demands certain sacrifices. This is why race cars do not have air-conditioners and cup-holders. You start worying about comfort and ease of use and you end up with a mini-van instead of an F1 car -- or in our case RH instead of Debian. -- Ben Messinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are no accidents, only plans other people make and don't tell you about.
Re: slashdot poll
Pollywog wrote: Several people have told me that as newbies (first time install) they got RedHat up and on the net in 15 minutes, but I don't believe any of them. -- Andrew I recently installed RH just to see what the big deal was about. I was totally offended by the hands-off install. The hardware detection was kool, but I know my hardware anyway. When the install was complete x started right up. No problem so far other than the fact that it installed the whole thing on one big 3.1gig partition and totally ignoring /dev/hdb. Then I tried to set up ppp. Looked easy. I followed the menus, typed here, clicked there and so on and so forth. But it wouldn't dial. So I thought I would take a look at the scripts to see what might be wrong. One look at the scripts and I knew that this system was designed to be opperated from a gui front-end only. I browsed around all the regular system files and everything was unfamiliar. Nothing seemed to be where it should have been, and what I could find I could not understand. My previous experience has been with Debian, SuSE, and Slack. With those you can check under the hood and know what you are looking at. I was totaly put off by RH. I took it off my box and put Debian back on within an hour. And by the way, I had ppp working within a few minutes after the install was complete. Maybe a newbie could have gotten ppp working for me under RH, but I think anyone with Linux experience would have had a hard time. g Is RH the Anti-Unix Linux? -- Ben Messinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are no accidents, only plans other people make and don't tell you about.
RE: slashdot poll
Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. Right. I've recently tried Redhat and SuSE on a separate partition and Debian's installation is still pure stone age. Well, i guess there's still Slackware... What do people like about RH? Is it worth trying to nick parts of their install? I found it a pain - It wouldn't let me just install individual packages, though I wonder whether some of the modconf stuff could be left out for the initial install. And now imagine the power of Debian combined with an installation routine at least as convenient and user friendly like Redhat's or SuSE's. Debian would be the absolute killer! But oh well, talk is cheap... How about suggesting some improvements, rather than I don't like the Debian install? :) Matthew -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Steward of the Cambridge Tolkien Society Selwyn College Computer Support http://www.cam.ac.uk/CambUniv/Societies/tolkien/ http://pick.sel.cam.ac.uk/ Debian GNU/Hurd - love at first byte
RE: slashdot poll
I'm sure you did the right thing ! IMHO, the reason RH leads is because they are a fully fledged commercial dist. which attracts media attention and advertising. The more attention and advertising, the more CD's are purchased and so popularity apparently increases which attracts more media attention and advertising. There have been several threads recently relating to the Debian/RH issue. Check out the list archives at http://www.debian.org/ Ivan. At 06:09 PM 2/9/99 -, Pollywog wrote: On 09-Feb-99 Adam Di Carlo wrote: Debian seems to be taking a beating on the recent /. poll of distributions. Have you all voted? Why is that? I just ordered a copy because I have heard good things about the distro. -- Andrew -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: slashdot poll
If an F1 motor was put into a mini-van body would it be any less powerful or more difficult to actually start ? I think the air-conditioners relate far more to a permanent GUI like Windows which does suck the power the from the motor. If I understand correctly this is not what is being proposed. I support a better looking body for the (IMHO) most powerful engine created (air-conditioning and cup-holders available as optional extras !) Ivan. I my oppinion this would be hard to do (make Debian easier without sacrifices). To be technically superior demands certain sacrifices. This is why race cars do not have air-conditioners and cup-holders. You start worying about comfort and ease of use and you end up with a mini-van instead of an F1 car -- or in our case RH instead of Debian. -- Ben Messinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are no accidents, only plans other people make and don't tell you about. -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: slashdot poll
Paul Seelig wrote: On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, M.C. Vernon wrote: RH is a commercially-based distro, so they can spend loads of cash on advertising etc, so they are the most popular, despite Debian's inherantly free-er nature, and techincal superiority Redhat is a distribution geared at ease of use. That's why Linus himself uses Redhat and not Debian. Debian with all it's technical superiority would definitely benefit from becoming a bit more user friendly as well. This should be possible without dumbing down or sacrificing technical advantages but might in the contrary actually add to it's overall quality. I my oppinion this would be hard to do (make Debian easier without sacrifices). To be technically superior demands certain sacrifices. This is why race cars do not have air-conditioners and cup-holders. You start worying about comfort and ease of use and you end up with a mini-van instead of an F1 car -- or in our case RH instead of Debian. I disagree. Actually it's not that Debian is built to be hard to use. It's just that many of the 'pretty' system control and configure applications supplied by RH are not in Debian. (Besides they only work in X) I understand that some work is being done toward this end. One of RH's application (Xconfigurator) is even being ported to Debian. Also what is needed is a good book of 'hints and kinks' for Debian. I am slowly buildning filling my own reference binder with stuff I have found useful when I was backed into a corner. If I see a good hint on this list I try to print it out and save it. Maybe if I get to the point where it's organized enough I'll e-publish it. I would invite others to do the same. == Amateur Radio, when all else fails! http://www.qsl.net/wa2mze Debian Gnu Linux, Live Free or . _ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Ben Messinger wrote: Pollywog wrote: Several people have told me that as newbies (first time install) they got RedHat up and on the net in 15 minutes, but I don't believe any of them. -- Andrew I recently installed RH just to see what the big deal was about. I was totally offended by the hands-off install. The hardware detection was kool, but I know my hardware anyway. When the install was complete x So perhaps we should try taking RH's hardware detection stuff? Matthew -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Steward of the Cambridge Tolkien Society Selwyn College Computer Support http://www.cam.ac.uk/CambUniv/Societies/tolkien/ http://pick.sel.cam.ac.uk/ Debian GNU/Hurd - love at first byte
Re: slashdot poll
Kenneth Scharf wrote: Actually it's not that Debian is built to be hard to use. It's just that many of the 'pretty' system control and configure applications supplied by RH are not in Debian. (Besides they only work in X) As someone who has recently come to use Debian from a year or two of RedHat experience, I can say that the non-X-based nature of dselect can be a distinct advantage when you're trying to configure a server machine (damn thing sure doesn't need X). I mean, I just telnetted into it and did everything from my (Win95!) client. And what about installation on an old machine that doesn't have a CDROM? dselect was quite FTP-friendly; I couldn't get a RedHat installation to work at all on this old machine that had only 8M and antiquated hardware. There are more Debian floppies but, guess what? Debian saw all my hardware right first try. I think a lot of those folks that love RedHat only use it on their home machine with the latest and greatest nifty hardware, sitting at its console. But that may well not be the most useful application of Linux... And another thing: a lot of those X-based configuration things don't work that well. I know that for sure... ;-) And the way dselect goes ahead and invokes configuration scripts: rpm definitely does *not* do that; so if the package really requires configuration beyond the defaults, you need to figure out how to do it. Not to mention the way you can load packages down from the web really easily. I mean, hell, it even tells you when there's an updated package! So far, Debian seems to me like a workhorse: it may not be flashy, but everything just *works*. That beats flash every time in my book. And another thing: the transparency with which Debian is managed. What the hell do I mean? You can see the whole bug-tracking process. Try that with RedHat. Right... And the way they segregate the non-free stuff. It's not that you can't use it; you just know what you're getting. That's not ideology for me; that's just knowing what's going on my system: it's damn *useful* to know what's GNU-licensed and what's STING (Stuff That Is Not GNU). It *is* a sting when it doesn't work right and you want to change it... And is it just me, or is everybody and his mother putting out RPMs these days, some of very shoddy quality? I have the impression, if it's a deb and it's on Debian's site, it's gonna at least install properly and do *something* without crapping out... Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Especially hearing folks bitch about dselect. I just hope apt is as good. (It's not X-based, is it? Say it's not...) Hope the new logo is good. I kind of like the little bird... [cut]
Re: slashdot poll
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Keith G. Murphy wrote: As someone who has recently come to use Debian from a year or two of RedHat experience, I can say that the non-X-based nature of dselect can be a distinct advantage when you're trying to configure a server machine and if the dselect process shuts down your X server ;) (happened once...) i agree, but as i installed several machines, i found the given profiles quite useless, and had to parse by hand all the package lists... a more evoluted interface with submenues instead of the actual subframes would really be nice even for text-terminals... CDROM? dselect was quite FTP-friendly; I couldn't get a RedHat can't install debian through ftp, or did i miss something somewhere??? the base package has to be installed through disquettes, CDROM, HD or NFS but no ftp! and that's not kind... i was used to flip a single floppy into the machines to isntall, and that is grown hard now that i use debian, due to the lack of support of ftp once its installed its fine, but the installation is a pain (and i now have installed approx 60 debian systems...) Debian saw all my hardware right first try. that's true, and a point i like very much. And another thing: a lot of those X-based configuration things don't work that well. I know that for sure... ;-) yep, for one i do notlike control-panel but... So far, Debian seems to me like a workhorse: it may not be flashy, but everything just *works*. That beats flash every time in my book. sure ... but STING (Stuff That Is Not GNU). It *is* a sting when it doesn't work right and you want to change it... agreed.. And is it just me, or is everybody and his mother putting out RPMs these days, some of very shoddy quality? I have the impression, if it's a deb seemed to me too... Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Especially hearing folks bitch about dselect. I just hope apt is as good. (It's not X-based, is it? Say it's not...) you may continue use dselect with it ;) AFAIK there will be interfaces for each taste finally i begun to notice all the utilities for sysadmin that are present in debian, what i would like to see, is a smit sort of application, that regroups under one starting application invocation points for all present configuration scripts (e.g. update-*) with eventually ready forms for the required data (each time i use update-alternatives i have to read the man) and such a thing should be first vt-compatible, with an eventual X-GUI I never looked into vt-controls through perl, is there a way to make this nice bluered fullscreen windows with perl? ciao bboett == acount at earthling net http://erm6.u-strasbg.fr/~bboett === Unsolicited commercial email is NOT welcome at this email address To contact me replace acount by bboett in above addresses
Re: slashdot poll
Subject: RE: slashdot poll Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:13:30AM + In reply to:M.C. Vernon Quoting M.C. Vernon([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. Right. I've recently tried Redhat and SuSE on a separate partition and Debian's installation is still pure stone age. Well, i guess there's still Slackware... What do people like about RH? Is it worth trying to nick parts of their install? I found it a pain - It wouldn't let me just install individual packages, though I wonder whether some of the modconf stuff could be left out for the initial install. I got into linux 3 -4 years ago. The only distributions that I got to work at all were Debian and slackware. Redhat Caldera drove me nuts. I couldn't get the printer working on either one. I stayed with debian for about a year. Then, while trying to update using IIRC dselect ftp, it trashed the system. I could still log on but that was about it. Deselect was just a slight bit better then glint ( or whatever they called it). I went back to slackware, which I still use. I then tried Suse. Yast was nice and I feel it lets a user get packages with less confusion then deselect does but it has its own confusing parts. It (YAST) is IMHO much better then the tool that I had used with Redhat. The problem I had with Suse was they had taken a different path (SysV) then Slackware and I found that weird. Things weren't as stright forward as they were in Slackware. A slight problem was that a lot of the docs I needed to read to understand the differences were in German. I couldn't get the info I needed, so dropped Suse. I watched the newsgroups and various ML over the years and saw that more people were having problems with RH then they were with any other dist (Release new version a week later release tons of fixes). Debian didn't have that problem. Security on RH seemed to be a common problem, while Debian was on top of the security issue. The number of packages in Debian keep increasing and seems to cover a broad enough spectrum that should interest just about anyone. Now 3 years later I am again using Debian. Why? Well I have watched this distribution mature. The problems that I had before have been addressed and fixed. The addition of apt and now the GREAT gnome-apt will contribute to the popularity of Debian. Hopefully deselect will be replaces by a more understandable console program for the non-x crowd. As of now I have no interest at all in RH or Suse. I have Slackware still installed but also Hamm, Slink and Potato. I still have clients using Slackware but am just about ready to start the switch to Debian. It, IMHO, is the distribution of choice. Gnome-apt will allow my clients to do more admin on their own, and that is good! How about suggesting some improvements, rather than I don't like the Debian install? I find deselect as the only problem with debian. The update section really needs work. Cdrom and apt are handled fine but the others should have some type of a config file to make the options easier to use. I have tried the ftp option a few times and find it is easier to get out of deselect and go get the packages myself. Now I remember, it asks for a directory at the site you selected and if you haven't been there before (or are really into the structure of the site) it doesn't do what you want. A config file would allow anyone to navigate that pitfall. Thats my only suggestion. I can get around that problem (by not using it) but newbies would get discouraged very fast not knowing how else to get and install the files. I would like to thank the army of developers who have taken Debian to the high level it is currently at. I am bewildered my the poll that has Debian as #2. I guess that it just takes a little higher IQ to use Debian then it does RH. Thats fine by me, I like the company. Wayne -- You can measure a programmer's perspective by noting his attitude on the continuing viability of FORTRAN. -- Alan Perlis ___ Wayne T. Topa [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: slashdot poll
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, M.C. Vernon wrote: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. Right. I've recently tried Redhat and SuSE on a separate partition and Debian's installation is still pure stone age. Well, i guess there's still Slackware... What do people like about RH? Is it worth trying to nick parts of their install? I found it a pain - It wouldn't let me just install individual packages, though I wonder whether some of the modconf stuff could be left out for the initial install. And now imagine the power of Debian combined with an installation routine at least as convenient and user friendly like Redhat's or SuSE's. Debian would be the absolute killer! But oh well, talk is cheap... How about suggesting some improvements, rather than I don't like the Debian install? :) Matthew I was a total newbie to Linux when I started, and I started with Debian. The Debian install process (for base) is mostly fine; it needs to have some grammer/spelling corrections made, and it REALLY needs better (ie. more explantory information for the newbie) documentation in the help screens (not the man pages, not the documentation, but on the help screen within the install). A newbie doesn't understand all the techno-jargon, and doesn't know if he needs to install the serial driver and/or the lp driver and/or the cdrom driver, etc, etc. Help screens that say stuff like if you have a printer attached to your computer you need this (the lp) driver or if your computer is at home and/or you don't know what the term ethernet means, you probably do not need a NIC driver would be very helpful and make the install much easier, without going the RH way. Other than better help screens in the existing base install, the help screens in the pppconfig setup could be improved also. The only other major weak spot in Debian installs is getting X up and running. It boggles me that the XF86Setup program can display what looks to the newbie like a Windows-type environment and that it can say Congratulations! It looks like you have a running server, and then as soon as you type startx you get a bunch of error messages and no X. There should be a no-fuss method of getting a minimal X system going (ugly VGA is fine). After that success, then the newbie can learn the ins-and-outs of getting decent resolution, etc. To sum up: 1) better help screens in base install, 2) better help screens in pppconfig, 3) a no-fuss minimal X install that any idiot can get going. -- Kent West [EMAIL PROTECTED] KC5ENO - Amateur Radio: When all else fails. Linux - Finally! A real OS for the Intel PC! Life is an ongoing classroom. - Capt. James T. Kirk, Dreadnought
RE: slashdot poll [Suggestions for improving the installation process]
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, M.C. Vernon wrote: What do people like about RH? Is it worth trying to nick parts of their install? I found it a pain - It wouldn't let me just install individual packages, though I wonder whether some of the modconf stuff could be left out for the initial install. This is an interesting suggestion. Since the kernel on the install floppy has most of the support that a beginner would initially need, we could have a novice install path where the user chooses from a brief list of compound options such as: (1) Basic install with support for serial devices (modems and mice). (2) Basic install with support for serial devices and PS2 mice. (I'm sure that these options would need to be customized for each architecture, but I only have experience with debian X86.) The install script would then install an assumed set of modules to complement the needs of this novice user, bypassing the manual module configuration script. Thanks. Syrus. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Syrus Nemat-Nasser [EMAIL PROTECTED]UCSD Physics Dept.
Re: slashdot poll
Bruno Boettcher writes: I never looked into vt-controls through perl, is there a way to make this nice bluered fullscreen windows with perl? whiptail. -- John HaslerThis posting is in the public domain. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do with it what you will. Dancing Horse Hill Make money from it if you can; I don't mind. Elmwood, Wisconsin Do not send email advertisements to this address.
Re: slashdot poll
Kent West writes: Other than better help screens in the existing base install, the help screens in the pppconfig setup could be improved also. Could you make specific suggestions? preferably by filing a bug report against pppconfig. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI
Re: slashdot poll
Second place is taking a beating? I don't think so. Yes, I voted. -Ian On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Adam Di Carlo wrote: Debian seems to be taking a beating on the recent /. poll of distributions. Have you all voted? .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]URL:http://www.onShore.com/ -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null __ Ian Setford [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP = F2 92 50 E3 CD D7 A2 D9 C4 CE 08 A6 98 E0 0F 58
Re: slashdot poll
Adam Di Carlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Debian seems to be taking a beating on the recent /. poll | of distributions. Have you all voted? A beating? Second place? Seems pretty good to me. True, it trails RedHat by a significant margin but I don't think that's really surprising. Just reading comp.os.linux.misc leads you to the conclusion that RedHat is the most popular distribution. Gary
RE: slashdot poll
On 09-Feb-99 Adam Di Carlo wrote: Debian seems to be taking a beating on the recent /. poll of distributions. Have you all voted? Why is that? I just ordered a copy because I have heard good things about the distro. -- Andrew
Re: slashdot poll
Pollywog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | On 09-Feb-99 Adam Di Carlo wrote: | | Debian seems to be taking a beating on the recent /. poll | of distributions. Have you all voted? | | Why is that? I just ordered a copy because I have heard good things | about the distro. You won't be sorry. I've tried a few distros, and been using Linux since 0.99 days, and have never been disappointed in Debian. As I said in a previous note on the list, I personally consider Debian's showing on /. to be pretty good. It's second, behind RedHat. The only reason RedHat is doing better is because they have an advertising budget. There's nothing technically superior about it, other than, perhaps, a little easier installation procedure. Gary
RE: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Pollywog wrote: On 09-Feb-99 Adam Di Carlo wrote: Debian seems to be taking a beating on the recent /. poll of distributions. Have you all voted? Why is that? I just ordered a copy because I have heard good things about the distro. RH is a commercially-based distro, so they can spend loads of cash on advertising etc, so they are the most popular, despite Debian's inherantly free-er nature, and techincal superiority Matthew -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Steward of the Cambridge Tolkien Society Selwyn College Computer Support http://www.cam.ac.uk/CambUniv/Societies/tolkien/ http://pick.sel.cam.ac.uk/ Debian GNU/Hurd - love at first byte
RE: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, M.C. Vernon wrote: RH is a commercially-based distro, so they can spend loads of cash on advertising etc, so they are the most popular, despite Debian's inherantly free-er nature, and techincal superiority Redhat is a distribution geared at ease of use. That's why Linus himself uses Redhat and not Debian. Debian with all it's technical superiority would definitely benefit from becoming a bit more user friendly as well. This should be possible without dumbing down or sacrificing technical advantages but might in the contrary actually add to it's overall quality. Speaking about polls, here is the URL of a poll conducted in Germany a few months ago. Debian is second here too but Redhat is not first either: http://www.linux.de/poll/question.php3?qid=2show=1;. Cheers, P. *8^) -- - Paul Seelig [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany --- http://www.uni-mainz.de/~pseelig -
RE: slashdot poll
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:57:39 +0100 (MET), Paul Seelig wrote: Redhat is a distribution geared at ease of use. That's why Linus himself uses Redhat and not Debian. Debian, IMHO, is easy to use. Very easy to use. From what I've heard RedHat is harder to use. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBNsCbfnpf7K2LbpnFEQJNoACdEX6lyxiLoQsMo/eSW7iAvXyqquQAoOp1 ld69SUUIRzXZzBGxFWD2n9iE =gMcP -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: slashdot poll
Gary L. Hennigan wrote: A beating? Second place? Seems pretty good to me. True, it trails RedHat by a significant margin but I don't think that's really surprising. Just reading comp.os.linux.misc leads you to the conclusion that RedHat is the most popular distribution. Well, yes, but keep in mind that 75% of posters to c.o.l.m. about debian are referred to this mailing list. -- see shy jo
RE: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:57:39 +0100 (MET), Paul Seelig wrote: Redhat is a distribution geared at ease of use. That's why Linus himself uses Redhat and not Debian. Debian, IMHO, is easy to use. Very easy to use. From what I've heard RedHat is harder to use. From what I've seen on this list so far, I'd say: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. Debian's way easier to maintain. Apt, dselect and dpkg are marvels. In the same way, Debian's easier to upgrade. So, in those comparative reviews, yes, we DO are disadvantaged. What they look at is: How easy are the 5 first day of use. They forget about the 360 next that'll really show the Debian power. Christian Lavoie
RE: slashdot poll
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:56:11 -0500, Christian Lavoie wrote: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. A liar, for sure since a reasonable install would take more than 15 minutes, much less fully up to speed. To contradict it here is a person, me, who had a hell of a time getting Red Hat to install but has no problems, at all, with Debian and I FTP install each time over a modem. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBNsCiyHpf7K2LbpnFEQKUywCg0rs6J9lwWMnaMi+synGFNoVYAFAAoJa6 ONUJx4yOfyRkQH3Lwjk3HRbh =3as4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Christian Lavoie wrote: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. Right. I've recently tried Redhat and SuSE on a separate partition and Debian's installation is still pure stone age. Well, i guess there's still Slackware... Debian's way easier to maintain. Apt, dselect and dpkg are marvels. In the same way, Debian's easier to upgrade. This is right as well. Redhat has proven to be pretty awkward in these matters. But SuSE is a valid contender as well regarding ease of maintenance. So, in those comparative reviews, yes, we DO are disadvantaged. What they look at is: How easy are the 5 first day of use. They forget about the 360 next that'll really show the Debian power. And now imagine the power of Debian combined with an installation routine at least as convenient and user friendly like Redhat's or SuSE's. Debian would be the absolute killer! But oh well, talk is cheap... Cheers, P. *8^) -- - Paul Seelig [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany --- http://www.uni-mainz.de/~pseelig -
RE: slashdot poll
DISCLAIMER: I never used any other distribution than Debian. All what I say about others is gathered from the many things I've read about those dists. Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. A liar, for sure since a reasonable install would take more than 15 minutes, much less fully up to speed. To contradict it here is a person, me, who had a hell of a time getting Red Hat to install but has no problems, at all, with Debian and I FTP install each time over a modem. Well, installation is Red Hat's power. And that guy maybe didn't had installed something you and I consider a major thing. (Like network or X) But then, Red Hat IS quicker to install than Debian.
RE: slashdot poll
On 09-Feb-99 Steve Lamb wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:56:11 -0500, Christian Lavoie wrote: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. A liar, for sure since a reasonable install would take more than 15 minutes, much less fully up to speed. To contradict it here is a person, me, who had a hell of a time getting Red Hat to install but has no problems, at all, with Debian and I FTP install each time over a modem. Several people have told me that as newbies (first time install) they got RedHat up and on the net in 15 minutes, but I don't believe any of them. -- Andrew
RE: slashdot poll
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:33:10 - (GMT), Pollywog wrote: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. A liar, for sure since a reasonable install would take more than 15 minutes, much less fully up to speed. To contradict it here is a person, me, who had a hell of a time getting Red Hat to install but has no problems, at all, with Debian and I FTP install each time over a modem. Several people have told me that as newbies (first time install) they got RedHat up and on the net in 15 minutes, but I don't believe any of them. Well, hell, if that is all it takes to be full up to speed I can claim, with confidence, that I've had two Debian installs up on the net in under 15 minutes. Mind you, that was just the base install of 8 disks, but it was up on the net. :) - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBNsCtUnpf7K2LbpnFEQJd1ACePhpIl63J3C4rEz9WkJYnAQiHqi4An32e k8VZ5kFdnaapZIga9WNwFh4W =ubFS -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: slashdot poll
On 09-Feb-99 Steve Lamb wrote: Well, hell, if that is all it takes to be full up to speed I can claim, with confidence, that I've had two Debian installs up on the net in under 15 minutes. Mind you, that was just the base install of 8 disks, but it was up on the net. :) Yes, but was it your first time, knowing nothing about UNIX or Linux? -- Andrew
Re: slashdot poll
I really hate to continue this thread, but I thought I'd throw in my experience. I was turned on to Linux by a friend, and he was using Debian, so I installed it and tried it. About 2 days later I had a working Debian system. Mind you I was a COMPLETE Unix numb-nuts. The only real command I knew was ls. I also after playing with Debian for a week tried Red-Hat. The install went very well, but that was all I ever got done... I did not know how to get other packages installed and such. I was stuck with a system that was empty. It had almost nothing installed on it, and I did not know how to get any more installed on it. So, I went back to dselect (hamm) Debian and have been using Debian ever since. Even if Red-hat has a good installation procedure, it was dselect that won me over. Will - Original Message - From: Pollywog [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 4:33 PM Subject: RE: slashdot poll On 09-Feb-99 Steve Lamb wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:56:11 -0500, Christian Lavoie wrote: Debian's harder to install. One guy mentionned he could install Red Hat in less than 15 minutes. Hard to have something fully up at that speed with Debian. A liar, for sure since a reasonable install would take more than 15 minutes, much less fully up to speed. To contradict it here is a person, me, who had a hell of a time getting Red Hat to install but has no problems, at all, with Debian and I FTP install each time over a modem. Several people have told me that as newbies (first time install) they got RedHat up and on the net in 15 minutes, but I don't believe any of them. -- Andrew -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: slashdot poll
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, William Schwartz wrote: I also after playing with Debian for a week tried Red-Hat. The install went very well, but that was all I ever got done... I did not know how to get other packages installed and such. I was stuck with a system that was empty. It had almost nothing installed on it, and I did not know how to get any more installed on it. So, I went back to dselect (hamm) Debian and have been using Debian ever since. Even if Red-hat has a good installation procedure, it was dselect that won me over. When i tested Redhat this was one of the most definitive turn offs. One needed to have X11 up and running to have access to a rather strange package management frontend. Actually dselect is terrible in ergonomic terms and intuitive usage but at least it works and does it's job far better than this RPM frontend under X11. And it even works well when you take the time to read the documentation to get aquainted with it's somewhat awkward handling. I even began to like it to some degree. But then there is SuSE... Cheers, P. *8^) -- - Paul Seelig [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany --- http://www.uni-mainz.de/~pseelig -
Re: slashdot poll
On 09-Feb-99 William Schwartz wrote: I really hate to continue this thread, but I thought I'd throw in my experience. I was turned on to Linux by a friend, and he was using Debian, so I installed it and tried it. About 2 days later I had a working Debian system. Mind you I was a COMPLETE Unix numb-nuts. The only real command I knew was ls. I also after playing with Debian for a week tried Red-Hat. The install went very well, but that was all I ever got done... I did not know how to get other packages installed and such. I was stuck with a system that was empty. It had almost nothing installed on it, and I did not know how to get any more installed on it. So, I went back to dselect (hamm) Debian and have been using Debian ever since. Even if Red-hat has a good installation procedure, it was dselect that won me over. That is interesting, because since I am more familiar with rpm,I have avoided dselect. I ordered a Debian CD yesterday for my laptop (my other machine runs OpenLinux) so I will get another chance with the Debian packaging system. If it works out, I might use Debian on both machines. I like OpenLinux, but Caldera does not yet use libraries I need to install newer software. -- Andrew
Re: slashdot poll
I think the distribution holy wars are irrelevant and a waste of time. The best distribution should be based on personal preference. The real concern should be maintaining compatability across _all_ Linux distributions. In other words, if I can compile and run my program on the Red Hat distribution, I should be able to do the same on Debian, Slackware, and all the rest. In my humble opinion, Linux application development (and ports) should not be done with one particular distribution in mind, but with _general_ Linux in mind. Just thoughts. Matt -- Matt Garman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They're always havin' a good time down on the bayou, Lord, them delta women think the world of me. -- Dickey Betts, Ramblin' Man
