subject:"Re\: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian."

On 8/30/13, Phi Debian  wrote:
> Amazingly I needed to do a check on ubuntu raring, so I quickly setup
> a raring guest. And as I am at it, dit the
> panel->properties->[background] test, and it got killed with out any
> 'oh no' message, so even harder to understand what happen :) I may be
> back to debian for raring era :)
>
> So this is more a general GUI linux world problem, all distro's are
> victimised by questionable bus architecture, then wanted to get as
> nice as MAC, and got as worth as windooze :) (just kidin, don't
> flame).
>
> And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is
> general...

Only because that is what you would like to see fixed first I guess.
You expressed you like debian. I do too. Filing a bug, with a
procedure that is reproducible, is one of the best ways to assist the
developers to fix a bug. Eventually it goes upstream anyway... so if
you filed with Centos or ArchLinux, then it would eventually get back
to Debian anyway.

But if you are testing the bug in Debian environment, then sensible to
file with bugs.debian.org - sometimes the developer might ask (in the
bug) to test another small thing, like eg strace or whatever might
help him/her.

> I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this

I was the same when I first reported a bug. But it's easy when you get
the hang of it. Just go to bugs.debian.org there is a link near the
top "how to report a bug".

There is even a gui (explained on website) - reportbug-ng  which makes
it easy to automatically include info about the bug. It also provides
that you can add your own information as well.

If you prefer, just use the website too. Pretty straightforward after
I used it first time.

Cheers
Zenaan

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

Amazingly I needed to do a check on ubuntu raring, so I quickly setup
a raring guest. And as I am at it, dit the
panel->properties->[background] test, and it got killed with out any
'oh no' message, so even harder to understand what happen :) I may be
back to debian for raring era :)

So this is more a general GUI linux world problem, all distro's are
victimised by questionable bus architecture, then wanted to get as
nice as MAC, and got as worth as windooze :) (just kidin, don't
flame).

And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general...

I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this

Cheers,
Phi



On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Phi Debian  wrote:
>>
>> Just to clarify your procedure - vbox is installed, but you are
>> running vncserver just from host box, not inside vbox right?
>
> Once the vbox guest wheezy is installed and has a vcnserver runing on
> it, you may use any vncviewer you may have on your intranet to connect
> to it.
>
> my exact setup is
>
> my thin client with vncviewer on it.
> a host where I have vbox on it (in a computer room)
> I access the server with the evil vncviewer that 'pure' sysadmin on
> server would reject. yet it works enough to let vbox display the guest
> console with wheezy login screen so I can log on this one (doesn't
> crash) and do the sysadmin of the wheezy guest, i.e install
> vnc4server, tweak .vnc, start vncserver.
> back to my thin client i can use vncviewer to access the wheezy
> vncserver session.
>
> In the real life (non vbox) the path is similar, i.e a virtual console
> to the computer room server, a wheezy install (in my case was un
> squeeze update, but install would do the same) sysadmin vnc4server,
> .vnc, xstartup, vncserver. Then from my thinclient access my server
> vncsession, and crash it the same way.
>
> So the vbox path given is to avoid a bug fixer to buy a server :)
>
> Did I filled a bug report? no, the problem is knows since about a year
> and a half, and as I said reported thousand of time on the net, so I
> guessed it was already reported.
>
> Cheers,
> Phi


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On 8/30/13, Phi Debian  wrote:
> So the vbox path given is to avoid a bug fixer to buy a server :)
>
> Did I filled a bug report? no, the problem is knows since about a year
> and a half, and as I said reported thousand of time on the net, so I
> guessed it was already reported.

Well may be reported for RedHat, or just to some forum not particular.
This is debian though, and so if there's no bug in Debian bugs, then
we cannot help Debian developers to fix the bug (unless you know one
personally and communicate with him privately).

If I had the bug, I would file it against either vbox or vncserver or
gnome-session.
If the developers think it belongs to the other package, they will
change the package the bug is assigned to. Then 2 or 3 developers are
aware of that bug :)
I think Debian developer might not get your type of problem himself.
And also, he or she is probably not reading the RedHat bugs.

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

>
> Just to clarify your procedure - vbox is installed, but you are
> running vncserver just from host box, not inside vbox right?

Once the vbox guest wheezy is installed and has a vcnserver runing on
it, you may use any vncviewer you may have on your intranet to connect
to it.

my exact setup is

my thin client with vncviewer on it.
a host where I have vbox on it (in a computer room)
I access the server with the evil vncviewer that 'pure' sysadmin on
server would reject. yet it works enough to let vbox display the guest
console with wheezy login screen so I can log on this one (doesn't
crash) and do the sysadmin of the wheezy guest, i.e install
vnc4server, tweak .vnc, start vncserver.
back to my thin client i can use vncviewer to access the wheezy
vncserver session.

In the real life (non vbox) the path is similar, i.e a virtual console
to the computer room server, a wheezy install (in my case was un
squeeze update, but install would do the same) sysadmin vnc4server,
.vnc, xstartup, vncserver. Then from my thinclient access my server
vncsession, and crash it the same way.

So the vbox path given is to avoid a bug fixer to buy a server :)

Did I filled a bug report? no, the problem is knows since about a year
and a half, and as I said reported thousand of time on the net, so I
guessed it was already reported.

Cheers,
Phi

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On 8/30/13, Phi Debian  wrote:
Hi Phi,
That sounds like "high five" :)

> I have streamlined the problems as follow, anybody with little HW
> resource and time can reporduce it.

This looks like a much clearer bug report. And importantly,
reproducible. Was there a Debian bug report, or just reports on the
internet of this type of bug?

One of the best things we "users" (non-developers) can do to help with
a distro, is to determine a concise and reproducible procedure to
recreate the bug, so a developer can have possibility to see it and
fix it.

So perhaps next step is see if someone on this list has insight to
solve, and after a day or two, to file a bug report. Just choose a
package to file bug against - vncserver I guess.

Just to clarify your procedure - vbox is installed, but you are
running vncserver just from host box, not inside vbox right?

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

Hi Zeenan,

I have streamlined the problems as follow, anybody with little HW
resource and time can reporduce it.

1) Have a workable host running vbox
2) do a regular wheezy .iso netinstall in a guest (I used amd64 wheezy)
3) Log in and check all works well (generally it did) (you may log
classic or regular)
$ lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID:Debian
Description:Debian GNU/Linux 7.1 (wheezy)
Release:7.1
Codename:wheezy


4) apt-get install vnc4server

5) $ vncserver -geometry 1000x1000
6) $ vncserver kill :1
At this point you have .vnc/passwd setup ok and xstartup to fix

7) place this into.vnc/ xstartup
#!/bin/sh
xsetroot -solid grey
/usr/bin/gnome-session& (here you may do gnome-session-fallback)

8) on another system do vncviewer node:1
At this point you are in a brand new workspace

9) win+alt+right-click on the top-panel bar (out of any tabs, middle of nothing)
It show the  custom popup
[add to panel...]
[Properties]
[Delete this panel]


click Properties, then [background] tab
click [x] Solid color

Kaboom, you never use this account again

Well you can, from console
vncserver -kill :1
rm -rf ./.config

You can retry again and again until fixed :-)

Cheers,
Phi


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On 8/30/13, Phi Debian  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Zenaan Harkness  wrote:
>> If you have any cycles, I, and I am sure others, will be pleased to
>> assist with a little debugging, like using "strace" tool for example.
>>
>> You see, in your case, the bug seems very reproducible - every time
>> you can repeat it from what I understand. So if you have even a few
>> cycles, and you can keep a wheezy partition installed for a little
>> tests here and there, this might be very good for wheezy. and gnome I
>> guess..
>
> Ok I'll do that I will re-install wheezy on a spare part (or in this
> case probaly a tiny server I have)
>
> But frankly I don't even know what process to monitor

What is the program or package you install for vnc, and what do you
click on or run to run it?

STEP 1: find out how to run your vncserver desktop session:
Then we figure out how to run your vnc server session command from a shell. Eg:
vncserver :55 -geometry 1024x768 -localhost -depth 24

For the vncserver to work properly, ie to create a normal desktop
session, you might need to edit ~/.vnc/xstartup to have something like
the following 2 lines:
unset SESSION_MANAGER
exec /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc

alternatively, something like the following in ~/.vnc/xstartup
xsetroot -solid -gray
vncconfig -iconic &
xterm &
x-window-manager &

alternatively:
gnome-session
or (not sure if the following works sorry):
ck-launch-session gnome-session

STEP 1a:
Test running your vncserver from a shell, and connecting to it to
check, until you get it looking right, like your normal (gnome)
desktop.
If ~/.vnc/xstartup just starts a xterm, then try running gnome-session
(or ck-launch-session gnome-session) from the xterm inside vnc
desktop.

STEP 2: run your vncserver:
Then, for example, run the vncserver using strace, from a terminal of
course. Eg kill any test vncserver you have running on the server, and
now run a vncserver using strace logging (all one line):
strace -fo phi.log vncserver :55 -geometry 1024x768 -localhost -depth 24

STEP 3: produce the bug:
vncclient/rdp into your server vnc desktop session and kill it.

After that, you should have a file phi.log, which has lots of file
opens etc, and should show at the end, an idea of what happened just
before the crash.

I don't know who this could be sent to. If there is a bugs.debian.org
bug for your bug, then perhaps attach your strace log file to that bug
report, so that a developer could look at it. That's what I would do.

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Zenaan Harkness  wrote:

>
> If you have any cycles, I, and I am sure others, will be pleased to
> assist with a little debugging, like using "strace" tool for example.
>
> You see, in your case, the bug seems very reproducible - every time
> you can repeat it from what I understand. So if you have even a few
> cycles, and you can keep a wheezy partition installed for a little
> tests here and there, this might be very good for wheezy. and gnome I
> guess..

Ok I'll do that I will re-install wheezy on a spare part (or in this
case probaly a tiny server I have)

But frankly I don't even know what process to monitor

I gave the receipe for the crash in case one want to look at it.


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Zenaan Harkness

On 8/30/13, Phi Debian  wrote:
> Hi Zeenan,
>
> I can not contribute in this area for two reasons, I am not
> knowledgeable in the X11, DM area, and my duties leave me little
> cycles to ramp this knowledge up.

If you have any cycles, I, and I am sure others, will be pleased to
assist with a little debugging, like using "strace" tool for example.

You see, in your case, the bug seems very reproducible - every time
you can repeat it from what I understand. So if you have even a few
cycles, and you can keep a wheezy partition installed for a little
tests here and there, this might be very good for wheezy. and gnome I
guess..

> An additional 'may be' reason is the total lack of starting point,
> even the kernel when it panics gives some clues where to look for.
> Well someone in the GUI area would look in relevant log file I suppose
> but I don't have a clue what they are. I am not the kind of person who
> give up easily on bugs, but on this one I am totally out of the loop.

It is a very "heavyweight" tool from end-user perspective, but very
powerful tool for certain type of "operating program till crash"
debugging - strace. Shows log of system calls (etc?) up till crash
point, just a few options to log to a file eg.

I was sad to see my old Gnome2 desktop go, small time series network
device monitors in the task bar etc etc...

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Phi Debian

Hi Zeenan,

I can not contribute in this area for two reasons, I am not
knowledgeable in the X11, DM area, and my duties leave me little
cycles to ramp this knowledge up.

An additional 'may be' reason is the total lack of starting point,
even the kernel when it panics gives some clues where to look for.
Well someone in the GUI area would look in relevant log file I suppose
but I don't have a clue what they are. I am not the kind of person who
give up easily on bugs, but on this one I am totally out of the loop.

I am half way about your description, my main server is still squeeze,
my secondary is precise for the time being, so I can progress, I wait
for a little while this way, see if a fix shows up, I would be glad to
get back on wheezy for my day to day work.

The nature of the problem, the number of hit on the net (linux gdm oh
no something went wrong 31.400), and the abscence of a solution while
most of the hits started back in April 2012, led me to think this bug
is here to stay, and as I said when you loose confidence in you GUI
you are reluctant to loose all your on-going work (like the BSOD era)
:) ) so will see how it goes.

As I said at the begining, I am almost sure that it is not debian team
fault, just the questionable universal move to gdm3/dbus/nameit that
is apparently not really stable.

Cheers,
Phi

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Zenaan Harkness

On 8/30/13, Phi Debian  wrote:

> Well I need to move forward and get a more recent linux as squeeze, I
> did try ubuntu and it worked, same vnc4server, got some cycle about
> how to eliminate unity, how to 'fallback' gnome and get my desktop
> customised my way. So as some said, watever works, I moved, but after
> all this years on debian, I felt a bit sad that it can be destroyed by
> the gnome3 chain (again no finger pointing, dunno what wrong there,
> but the complexity is so that it never has been fixed) go no option
> but leave, because I can't stay on squeeze (for verious reasons), and
> I can't miss vnc4server running. So I move, not too far though I still
> have my apt-get on ubuntu.
>
> If someone come with a fix for the trivial test case, fresh wheezy
> install vnc4server (no need to try anohter one, it as proved to be
> good on ubuntu), and from a vnclient do a simple top panel properties,
> background tab select solid color then slide style it is enough to
> definitly crahs you server to never be able to restart it.

If you are not able to spend the time to assist (if there is someone
to hear) the bug-squashing, and you cannot wait because you need your
production servers running, and there is no quick option here, then it
seems you have no option but to leave Debian.

To me it seems a little sad that you get "all these years on debian"
but are not able to contribute toward fixing of this bug - but sounds
like your circumstances do not allow this, which is unfortunate for
Debian.

Ubuntu is not too far removed (yet) from Debian, so should basically
satisfy you I imagine.

Good luck
Zenaan

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Phi Debian

Hi Gary,

Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I did
learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, etc... :)

Why I am using GUI on servers? Well because I am a big lazy man,
having done all my career on unix so far, and I don't have time to
learn all the CUI api's to handle a server. Basic things as network
setting, disc partitioning, guest setup, firewall setting (for distro
with firewall) etc, I don't have time, to learn it all. Now you made a
point if I am a fan of gparted I better have it export DISPLAY. I
approached linux via my laptop, and got acustomed  by GUI click click
sys admin, quick install, quick setup.
Yet I dont need all the 'things' that come up with GUI DM like for
instance I never cared to get libreoffice, and I never could remove it
without removing all  GNOME, I accepted it :)

So basically I open a vnc server session on the server that is located
in a computer room, I run vbox there and do all the guest admin from
click click because I am ignorant and can't do the vboxmanage things
as quick as click to get my guest setup. I got to say here that I am
not an IT manager, and I don't have thousand of server with thousand
of guest to manage, just enough guest to get my software developed on
all sort of linux/distro (rh, suse, ubuntu, debian) and some other
other bsd, solaris.
You can derive that for any other kind of sys admin that I don't know
how to do without GUI.

But that's little work, then come my development that I host on the
server too,  I got my emacs (many win), and debugger session...
Occasionally I need a package, again too ignorant and too lazy to
learn, so I run synaptic, dunno how it work but I give a keyword I
find the package, no clu how to do this in CUI mode, some other time I
need to browse the net and DL a software, or obtain a git ref, I then
have a browser runing on the server, etc... In many case to me, not
having a GUI on the server is a pain, though I admit, all can be done
CUI.

Then you speak about having the remote machine doing what it is best
at, i.e doing GUI, the answer is that I have many spot where I can
work (design kernel code), my office, my place, my girlfriend place,
and the place I visit, family, vacation, etc... For all this I adopted
a simple scheme, vpn+vnc, meaning my working place is just a
thinclient for the sedentary spot (office, home) and engineering
worksation laptop for travling (big display).The thinclient is very
capable, I can get up to 4 big display on it at the moment I use only
3, so basically 1 display is my server where I do SW dev, another
display is used the corporate PC (that I hosted as a guest on 1
server), and another  display I use for various things like reading
more .pdf doccos..

Now my work cycle is simple say I'm at the office with my thinclient 3
display, time is up, got to run home, the procedure is simple just
switch off my thinclient, in a middle of a C statement I was typing,
the emacs autosave will do its jobs. At home, boot home my thinclient
(2 display this one), and resume instantly my work exactly where I
left it, could be a single steping in a debug session.

I got fly to my family place no problemo got my worstation laptop,
vpn+vnc resume were I left andafter a 10h trip can resume my emacs or
gdb where I left it.

Got my laptop stollen, no big deal this is just material things, no IP
on the the laptop just a minimal linux a vnc client a vpn client and
that's all nothing to stoll here no information lost either, the 300Gb
or so disc I got there was never used, only the couple of Gb needed by
a simple debian desktop.

So you see each one develop its own way to work, I never have to deal
with long time to boot up, all my nodes (phys or virt) are in the
computer room always on, I just VNC to them and I work.

So now to be more precise, I should have not say that I got debian on
servers, you are right, my 'machine' are used as desktop, though some
of my desktop are 'server' in the HW sense, it is not laptop, it is
not tower desktop, but rackable machine with  32 processors, and 64Gb
main memory so what I am inclined to call tht a server, while I use
this as desktop I agry.

No on the purist edge, I could still manage this server (well two of
them because one can replace the other in case of HW failure ) I could
have managed this two node as pure server with ssh only access to them
and have my SW dev done in a guest that would display its screens via
vnc, but as I said, admin those are not my prefered task the day, and
it is only a small number of server (my 2 main, plus a couple of other
crash'n'burn)

So when I decided to move to wheezy, after a couple of try in guest
that were running ok, I did select the less used server, (my secondary
backup) took a deep breth and did the bungee jump.

It went sooth as I said, so the work was cleanly prepared on the
debian distro side. So as usual I appreciated and measured the job
done for this by the comunity.

But then the bug shows

Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Zenaan Harkness

On 8/30/13, Gary Dale  wrote:
> On 27/08/13 01:50 AM, Phi Debian wrote:
>> I use debian and gnome since well the begining...
>> I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests
>> run.
>> I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy.

>> I can cope with the questionable gdm3 and all things around, but doing
>> GUI on the rudimentary VGA is not the main purpose of this server, yet
>> it worked, so no problem related with HW graphical board FW.
>>
>> I start a vnc server for my account (vnc4server), and do the setup of
>> xstart the various way, the simplest being starting the gnome-session
>> in there.
>>
>> Then right click on top-panel-->property, color setup plain solid, and
>> kaboom, your vnc session is no longer available , oh no message
>> anybody knows by now, goolge it and it give massive useless solutions.

> I don't even understand why you are trying to do what you are doing. Why
> run a GUI on a server?
>
> If you want to run GUI applications on the sever, why not do X
> forwarding? That way you get to use your remote machine for what it is
> presumably best at - handling the GUI - while letting the server do the
> crunching.

VNC gives stateful gui session. X does not have that.

VNC is like gnu screen, for X. Similar to RDP.

It means he can connect at local server (gui) console, as well as from
remote workstation/desktop (which yes is presumably best at handling
gui).

As to why run a gui on a server at all? Perhaps:
gadmin-samba

Sadly I have never found samba to be easy to set up. I edit files
mostly. I sometimes try gadmin-samba. I've read lots of man pages and
docs.
Never easy to set up. I still have not understood properly the options
I need to understand for my small ngo network, and I've been doing
this for over 5 years.

I'm sure OP has his own reasons though :)


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Gary Dale


On 27/08/13 01:50 AM, Phi Debian wrote:

Hi All,

I use debian and gnome since well the begining...
I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests run.
I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy.

All the upgrade went smooth, and all worked like a charm, so thank you
for all the people who made this possible.

I can cope with the questionable gdm3 and all things around, but doing
GUI on the rudimentary VGA is not the main purpose of this server, yet
it worked, so no problem related with HW graphical board FW.

I start a vnc server for my account (vnc4server), and do the setup of
xstart the various way, the simplest being starting the gnome-session
in there.

Then right click on top-panel-->property, color setup plain solid, and
kaboom, your vnc session is no longer available , oh no message
anybody knows by now, goolge it and it give massive useless solutions.

I tried all sort of trick givin on the net, rm user account redo (that
works I can re start a vnc server and connect) yet still panel setup
crash, I tried all sort of things with dbus, socket, install tons of
useless packages.

Well, desesperate and after loosing a full day on it, I tried ubuntu,
and it cure. It come with its load of problems too, unity and all that
jazz, but all is workable around in a hour, going back to gnome
classic is doable.

So I think it is an adieu for debian It is miserable that all the work
done by valuable volunteers who are crafting a perfect OS for
development with nice packaging, and all the test that goes with, just
be ruined by a tiny questionalbe bits, but very visible indeed, the
GUI.

Well may be this is just the end of an era, may be only .com can
produce valid OS and .org is fading, sad day.

I still have another server to setup, I'll monitor the activity here
for a while in case someone has a solution for vnc4server setup on
wheezy, with the basic test thart works, the basic test beeing
right-click on top-panel-->properties-->[background]-->[x] solid
color->slide [style]

Cheers,
Phi



I don't even understand why you are trying to do what you are doing. Why 
run a GUI on a server?


If you want to run GUI applications on the sever, why not do X 
forwarding? That way you get to use your remote machine for what it is 
presumably best at - handling the GUI - while letting the server do the 
crunching.


Anyway, it doesn't appear that you're complaining about Debian so much 
as about a problem with the VNC server. Have you tried a different VNC 
server? There are lots out there and choosing a different one is 
certainly a lot easier than installing a different OS.


Meanwhile I continue to use Debian/Wheezy on all the servers I look 
after. As you mentioned, the upgrades go smoothly and it works well.


Of course, I will admit I don't use a GUI on any of the servers nor do I 
see a need to do so. When I need to connect to one, I use SSH which is 
simple and secure. Moreover, forwarding X through an SSH tunnel is 
fairly straightforward if you need to do it.



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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Joe

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:12:15 +1200
Chris Bannister  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:04:40 +1200
> > Chris Bannister  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hint: unstable does not mean buggy.
> > > 
> > 
> > In theory.
> 
> And in practice. All software has bugs, and hopefully most of the
> showstoppers are caught before the package passes to testing, but that
> is not the reason unstable is called unstable.

Yes, I know that, I've been using it for years. There is definitely a
tendency for it to be buggy, as it takes relatively new upstream
releases.

> 
> > LXDE has been uninstallable for weeks after being broken by an
> > update and the Iceweasel in the repository has four grave bugs.
> > There's a bug somewhere systemy, I think in GTK, which makes a
> > number of scroll bars misbehave. 
> 
> Unstable was, IIRC, referred to as the developers playground. 

More so in the months after a stable release...
> 
> > Synaptic has been occasionally freezing, sometimes taking
> > the whole X display with it, for some weeks.
> 
> Is this just for you?  As an unstable user[1], the onus is on you to
> help track down these issues.
> 
> [1] Also, can be misinterpreted. :)
> 
Probably just me, I have reported it but the person looking into it had
trouble reproducing it. It isn't a segfault, it leaves nothing in any
log, and it only happens after quite a few mouse clicks. I only use
Synaptic when there's an upgrade logjam, so I don't see it often. It
happened last night, and about four or five days ago. It looks to me, a
layman, like some kind of multi-tasking cooperation problem, where
Synaptic either refuses to take the baton or refuses to pass it on.
Either way, a killall Synaptic from another terminal clears things.

-- 
Joe


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-29 Thread Joe

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:35:24 +0200
Ralf Mardorf  wrote:

> On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 19:18 +0100, Joe wrote:
> > I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars
> > misbehave.
> 
> There is a bug still present for current "stable" releases from
> upstream. Again, I use the term stable here for the official stable
> releases from _upstream_, not for Debian stable. Debian, even Debians
> experimental usually is behind official stable releases from upstream.
> However, the known bug is, that sometimes the mouse wheel doesn't
> work, when the cursor isn't above a scrollbar, but e.g. inside a
> window.
> 
> 

No, this is also a known one, also from upstream: when the mouse is
clicked below the thumb in a scroll bar, the thumb jumps to the mouse
pointer instead of scrolling one page. Right clicking does scroll by
one page, and I thought this was an intentional change of user
interface, but it isn't, and it will be fixed with low priority.

-- 
Joe


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-28 Thread Chris Bannister

On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:04:40 +1200
> Chris Bannister  wrote:
> > 
> > Hint: unstable does not mean buggy.
> > 
> 
> In theory.

And in practice. All software has bugs, and hopefully most of the
showstoppers are caught before the package passes to testing, but that
is not the reason unstable is called unstable.

> LXDE has been uninstallable for weeks after being broken by an update
> and the Iceweasel in the repository has four grave bugs. There's a bug
> somewhere systemy, I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars
> misbehave. 

Unstable was, IIRC, referred to as the developers playground. 

> Synaptic has been occasionally freezing, sometimes taking
> the whole X display with it, for some weeks.

Is this just for you?  As an unstable user[1], the onus is on you to help
track down these issues.

[1] Also, can be misinterpreted. :)

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 19:18 +0100, Joe wrote:
> I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars
> misbehave.

There is a bug still present for current "stable" releases from
upstream. Again, I use the term stable here for the official stable
releases from _upstream_, not for Debian stable. Debian, even Debians
experimental usually is behind official stable releases from upstream.
However, the known bug is, that sometimes the mouse wheel doesn't work,
when the cursor isn't above a scrollbar, but e.g. inside a window.

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-28 Thread Joe

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:04:40 +1200
Chris Bannister  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 01:29:58PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > 
> > I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency
> > hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and
> > developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes
> > newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't
> > provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable
> > releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't
> > provide this.
> 
> Your confusion over the words "stable" and "unstable" certainly
> doesn't help here. Does that paragraph really make sense to you?
> 
> Hint: unstable does not mean buggy.
> 

In theory.

LXDE has been uninstallable for weeks after being broken by an update
and the Iceweasel in the repository has four grave bugs. There's a bug
somewhere systemy, I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars
misbehave. Synaptic has been occasionally freezing, sometimes taking
the whole X display with it, for some weeks.

And they're just the ones I'm aware of at the moment... no real
showstoppers, but definitely buggy.

-- 
Joe

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 11:46 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> I use Ubuntu

:) then you likely will run into the same issue like me and better
pretend that you don not use the best distro for your needs, since
Debian is the best distro for everybody.



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Re: Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-28 Thread Balamurugan


Dear Conrad,

Regarding the Debian's advantage and disadvantage, any one can point but 
comparing two persons, their ideology is not that simple.


Richard stall man stood for a nobel cause. If he hasn't taken such a 
project called GNU, we may have used only freeBSD and its kernel and may 
not be Linux. This is because Linux is just a kernel. Kernel may be 
compared to brain of a OS but it is definitely useless without the other 
parts of the system.


GNU can use BSD/hurd/Linux kernel and is working with all the three. 
Currently Debian is supplying all the three. I agree, Linux gained more 
fame but that doesn't mean, you can very well go and disrespect others.


Richard just stresses the point, we will not be in a position to know 
what is being done by the proprietary software in your system. If you 
are willing to go with it, no body stops you.


I would say better than skills, we should value other's ideology and 
their noble contributions. I am in no way arguing that Linus have done 
less. All good for the IT world.


Cheers,
Balamurugan R

On 08/27/2013 08:37 PM, Conrad Nelson wrote:

On 08/27/2013 07:22 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:55 +, Curt wrote:

What a traitor (or not)!

"arch traitor" ;) since I prefer Arch Linux and my explanations might be
a "traitor's kiss", since I referred to the KISS principle.


I am still a big Arch fan myself. But after a couple years I found 
myself drawn to Debian Testing as the Arch developers (ESPECIALLY 
Allan McRae, the current maintainer for Pacman.) have begun to take a 
fiercely arrogant attitude and a "we know better than you, so shut up" 
tone toward anyone who would question some of their decisions.


The last couple major changes in Arch seemed like changes for changes 
sake as well (systemd, while I really do love it a lot, just doesn't 
seem to fit with how I understood Arch was supposed to work. And I 
still believe to this day that the old BSD-like sysv setup they had 
before was loads simpler to configure.) And I still don't understand 
the point of the lib/bin merges they are doing, aside from the fact 
it's a blatant violation of FHS.


I used Gentoo for a bit, but its problem is the opposite of Arch: 
Whereas Arch is making pointless, unnecessary changes, Gentoo seems to 
be pretty stagnant and stuck in its ways. Gentoo actually is a 
distribution I actually think would benefit very well with systemd. 
OpenRC, though its goals are laudable, I've only ever seen it 
basically just become a sysv-init clone that accomplishes next to 
nothing new. My other gripe about Gentoo was it just got to be just 
too much work just for basic system upkeep. The USE flags were 
incredibly useful and powerful for customizing my packages and how my 
system would globally work, but all too often setting them globally 
would just result in Portage griping and refusing to install software, 
and setting USE flags individually per hundreds of packages is way too 
much work, effectively meaning Portage ended up getting in the way of 
what was supposed to be its own most powerful feature.


I think Debian works pretty well. It's not as flexible or powerful as 
Arch or Gentoo, perhaps, but it's definitely better for servers than 
Arch or Gentoo. But it's not without its flaws. I think Debian's 
obsession with free software conformity is, indeed, a weakness. Before 
you blast me, I'm just going to point out I subscribe more to the 
Torvalds school of thought on open source, NOT the Stallman school. 
Richard Stallman over-politicizes/idealizes the idea of open source, 
tries to make it almost a moral/spiritual thing in a context and 
industry where moral/spiritual choice is as a whole, irrelevant and 
actually pretty counterproductive. For a long time (Until recently, in 
fact.), Debian desktop users had to use third party repositories just 
to get decent multimedia support into Debian. Why? Because Debian 
developers questioned whether over half of the codecs most people 
needed were "free" enough.


I think my opinion is made worse by the fact I just plain do not like 
Richard Stallman both as a person or as a representative of the FOSS 
world. And despite all of Debian's good faith efforts to try to 
conform with Richard's idea of what "free" means he still basically 
regards Debian (And pretty much all Linux.) with contempt. This is 
probably less to do with whether or not Debian complies with his 
"free" ideas and more for the fact the guy is pedal-to-the-metal 
bitter and oh-so-very jealous that Linux succeeded in every place GNU 
failed (Such as actually being an operating system.), which is why he 
insists on the "GNU/Linux" moniker, which is utter nonsense (Using the 
GNU toolchain doesn't magically make Linux GNU, and he uses some of 
the most insane logic to try and justify a pretty transparent attempt 
to take credit for Linux's success from those who actually DID make 
Linux a success. It is a crying shame the Debian people, in their

Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-28 Thread Tom H

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 20:30:07 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>
> Fedora/RedHat has strict libre adherence for since forever. Debian has
> social contract forever.
>
> These advantages are definitive!
>
> These distributions are therefore superior! They are definitively better!
>
> Debian has >40,000 software packages, more than any other, and makes
> Debian definitively better than other distros. So even on utility
> metric, Debian is better!
>
> Debian runs on >12 architectures. Definitively better!
>
> Pick your metric Ralph!

Ralph might have different metrics than you do. I certainly have.

For example, for my parents' laptops, I couldn't care less about strict 
libre adherence, Debian's social contract, 40k packages, or non-x86 
architectures. All that I care about is that I can install a distro and 
set it up as quickly and easily as possible (including any needed 
proprietary software), so I use Ubuntu.

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 11:19 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> You should read the Colin Watson post (linked to on Slashdot) rather 
> than simply going by the sensationalist headline and paragraph.

I did read it.

I accept the policies of Debian and Ubuntu ;). I'm aware about their
advantages and their drawbacks and I'm aware about the advantages and
drawbacks of distros with other policies.

Ok, I understand that my opinion that Debian only is a good distro, but
that there is no best distro is unwanted.

I agree with all of you, Debian is the best distro and regarding to the
above quote, yes including this to Ubuntu and seemingly the same idea
Lennert has got, is very good. I'm completely mistaken. Debian is the
best distro! Nothing can compare to Debian!

Desktop environments and package managements should take more care about
tablet PC and less about real production environments.

Anything else I should say to satisfy Debian users mailing list?

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.

2013-08-28 Thread Tom H

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:05:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:56 +0300, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
>>
>> 
http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer

>
> Wow, thank you for the link. Than Ubuntu in the future will cause much
> more issues, when you talk to upstream, than they already do by their
> disgusting policy to split packages nowadays.

You should read the Colin Watson post (linked to on Slashdot) rather 
than simply going by the sensationalist headline and paragraph.

The last line of the Slashdot post even points out that Ubuntu doesn't 
intend this package installer to replace dpkg and apt.

If you read the ubuntu-devel post you'll see "the priority for this 
system at present is for Ubuntu phone/tablet app packages."

Imagine that I have Ubuntu on my phone and that you have a music 
application that you want to install. Do you really think that I'd want 
you to sprinkle files all over my filesystem or would I want you to 
install to "/apps/ralph/music-app/{bin,lib,...}"?

Ubuntu splits packages because Debian does. And Debian splits packages 
for various reasons.

In the case of nfs, Debian splits upstream's nfs-utils into nfs-common 
and nfs-kernel-server. The reason for this is that Debian's policy is to 
start a daemon automatically if it's installed. So you install 
nfs-common is you just want an nfs client and you install both if you 
want an nfs server. On RHEL/Fedora, you install nfs-utils and if you 
want to use the nfs server you run chkconfig and service or systemctl to 
enable and start it.

In the case of grub, Debian splits uptream's grub into many packages.

On my EFI laptop:

# dpkg-query -W -f '${Status}\t${Package}\n' grub* | grep ^install
install ok installedgrub-common
install ok installedgrub-efi
install ok installedgrub-efi-amd64
install ok installedgrub-efi-amd64-bin
install ok installedgrub2-common

Had I had a BIOS laptop, I would've had grub-pc rather than three 
grub-efi packages.

grub-common is a dependency of both grub1 and grub2 (bizarrely in the 
case of grub1 since it seems to install grub2 files).

grub2-common is a dependency of grub-efi-amd4, grub-efi-ia32, and grub-pc.

grub-efi is a dummy package.

I'm not sure why grub-efi-amd64 and grub-efi-amd64-bin are separate 
packages, probably because grub-efi-amd64-bin installs grub modules only.

When you choose a distro, you implicitly accept its policies...

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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.