Re: Top-posting (was Re: how to test disk for bad sector)
On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:14:16 -0700 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable > message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it. On the other tentacle, this sort of thing is usually the province of newbies. I think it would help to refer newbies to some advice. I would refer them to ESR's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way, but the catb.org server is not co-operating. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: Top-posting
Charlie Gibbs composed on 2020-08-30 09:14 (UTC-0700): > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:30:01 +0200 Charles Curley wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:02:48 + Andy Smith wrote: >>> Between your top posting and the HTML mails, I find it very >>> difficult to read your emails so I mostly haven't bothered. >> Hear, hear. My sentiments exactly. >> Yahoo mail is broken. I encourage Mr. Wind to get another mail reader. > If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable > message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it. > As for Outlook, I've been told that the correct pronunciation is > "Look out!" I pronounce it out house. "Even the magic 8 ball has an opinion on email clients: Outlook not so good" -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: top posting
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/2013-November/000303.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1385024914.686.78.camel@archlinux
Re: top posting
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:08:41 +1100 David bouncingc...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 November 2013 10:31, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. When you're curious about anything, use a search engine, like I used to find this for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Especially if the thing you are curious about is a question that has been asked a billion times already. scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. Trim to give the minimum context, and interleave replies, like this. Like a conversation. No scrolling required. And please forgive me for starting this. No. It is clearly off-topic for this list. Mostly, but not completely, this is a technical newsgroup, unlike many others. Questions can be asked and answered here, and indeed that is its purpose. Reasonable quoting and replying behaviour helps not just the person asking the question, but others who may be looking for the same answer years later. It is reasonable to assume that almost anything published on the Net will survive forever. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131121090912.13c6a...@jretrading.com
Re: top posting
Kelly, On a related note, something is wrong with your MUA and quoting. Here's a section of the quoting from your last message, with an additional layer of quoting applied, and trimmed to 20 characters (to avoid further wrapping issues): I'm just curious so upset about top p mind, as threads not want All of that text originated from the same message, but your mailer has variably applied either zero or two levels of quoting (and thrown a few extra new lines in for good measure). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131121095908.ga26...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: Google other web mail (was Re: top posting)
David Guntner da...@guntner.com wrote: GMail Yahoo Mail both support encrypted POP3 IMAP [...] I don't have to look at their ads since I'm not using their web interface [...] How long do you think it's going to be before they start inserting ads into the message body then? (And/or offering a premium service that doesn't.) Or including messages that are actually just adverts (that way they're not altering the message body). Oh, did someone say spam? Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bs11maxblm@news.roaima.co.uk
Re: top posting
The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). But I agree with you, and for years read my email in reverse chronological order precisely so that I could save time getting to the bottom line (at the top), so to speak. That said, this list's protocol requires inline or bottom posting (which I've just violated for obvious reasons), as is the case on most technical lists. Every one of the academic lists I have ever been on prefers (based on practice, at least) top posting. Go figure. Patrick On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJVvKsNU=QGFmjdD6=8dpn2lgywfhg0n0wocqvhsu6sea9x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: top posting
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Patrick Wiseman pwise...@gmail.com wrote: The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). But I agree with you, and for years read my email in reverse chronological order precisely so that I could save time getting to the bottom line (at the top), so to speak. That said, this list's protocol requires inline or bottom posting (which I've just violated for obvious reasons), as is the case on most technical lists. Every one of the academic lists I have ever been on prefers (based on practice, at least) top posting. Go figure. Patrick On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts?
Re: top posting
Brad Alexander grabbed a keyboard and wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#What_is_top-posting_.28and_why_shouldn.27t_I_do_it.29.3F People shouldn't be bottom posting the way you describe, either. Long-standing (literally decades-old) conventions for E-Mail have used the quote-and-reply style for maintaining the flow of a conversation. This is especially important on a mailing list, where many people can contribute to a given conversation. It's also a part of that long-standing convention that as a conversation grows larger, you're also supposed to trim out the parts of the text which no longer pertain to what you're replying to (keeping in enough for relevance while getting rid of stuff that is no longer part of the discussion). That is also, sadly, something that a lot of people don't get. But it's not as disruptive to the conversation as suddenly throwing comments on top of an existing conversation flow instead of interspersed with the rest of them. Top posting is even more disruptive when it's thrown in at the top of an existing conversation where people have been quoting and adding their comments among the quoted text. It's just plain lazy and is disrespectful of the other people in the conversation. Given that this topic really isn't specific to Debian, it's probably best if you take the conversation regarding it to the off-topic list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic --Dave smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: top posting
Kelly, according to the rules of posting on this mailing list, you should've posted that empty comment at the bottom ;) On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Kelly Clowers kelly.clow...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Patrick Wiseman pwise...@gmail.comwrote: The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). But I agree with you, and for years read my email in reverse chronological order precisely so that I could save time getting to the bottom line (at the top), so to speak. That said, this list's protocol requires inline or bottom posting (which I've just violated for obvious reasons), as is the case on most technical lists. Every one of the academic lists I have ever been on prefers (based on practice, at least) top posting. Go figure. Patrick On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts?
Re: top posting
On 21 November 2013 10:31, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. When you're curious about anything, use a search engine, like I used to find this for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Especially if the thing you are curious about is a question that has been asked a billion times already. scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. Trim to give the minimum context, and interleave replies, like this. Like a conversation. No scrolling required. And please forgive me for starting this. No. It is clearly off-topic for this list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAMPXz=pUUEaXjA3oSMYUYxO9q7=cjyu9mzuvtzvix0xyf5+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: top posting
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Patrick Wiseman pwise...@gmail.com wrote: The usual objection to top posting is that it destroys the logical flow of the conversation (and no doubt someone will post a conversation in reverse order to illustrate the point). snip On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts? Excuse the other message, slip of the finger... The thing is, when bottom posting, you are supposed to trim out bits that don't matter to your response, and often you have inline comments as well, as you said. I prefer bottom posting, but I give up and top post in corporate environments, as it is just too much effort to fight the inevitable there. Likewise, there is little point fighting against bottom posting on a technical list such as this one, where most everyone prefers bottom posting. Especially since most everywhere else they get top posting pushed on them, probably making them cling harder to bottom posting where they can. Cheers, Kelly
Re: top posting
On 11/20/2013 06:31 PM, Brad Alexander wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. And please forgive me for starting this. Thoughts? If the responder(s) clip the files to leave only the salient points, the files will not be so long as to bore you enroute. However, it does not help to clip _everything_ and just reply Yes, that's the way. I have seen some replies like that--_useless_! --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/528d543f.5070...@optonline.net
Re: top posting
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:59 PM, David Guntner da...@guntner.com wrote: Brad Alexander grabbed a keyboard and wrote: I'm just curious why so many people get so upset about top posting. To my mind, as threads get longer, those keeping up with the thread would not want to scroll through messages that they have already read. I know that I don't. If they are commenting inline, that is fine, but I think that scrolling to the bottom of each and every message is more of a pain than if a respondent posts at the top of the message. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#What_is_top-posting_.28and_why_shouldn.27t_I_do_it.29.3F People shouldn't be bottom posting the way you describe, either. Long-standing (literally decades-old) conventions for E-Mail have used the quote-and-reply style for maintaining the flow of a conversation. This is especially important on a mailing list, where many people can contribute to a given conversation. Actually, I can see the point of posting inline, however, leave it to google and other mail apps to go and ruin it. In the gmail web interface, when you reply to an email or even a thread, you get the text entry box, with the message you are responding to hidden by a ... icon. Thus, if you are not paying attention or are trying to respond quickly, it is easily overlooked. I posted in a thread earlier, and was surprised when someone started their response with don't top post. I didn't even realize I had, thanks again to google. It's also a part of that long-standing convention that as a conversation grows larger, you're also supposed to trim out the parts of the text which no longer pertain to what you're replying to (keeping in enough for relevance while getting rid of stuff that is no longer part of the discussion). That is also, sadly, something that a lot of people don't get. But it's not as disruptive to the conversation as suddenly throwing comments on top of an existing conversation flow instead of interspersed with the rest of them. Top posting is even more disruptive when it's thrown in at the top of an existing conversation where people have been quoting and adding their comments among the quoted text. It's just plain lazy and is disrespectful of the other people in the conversation. All right, I can understand and respect that. Given that this topic really isn't specific to Debian, it's probably best if you take the conversation regarding it to the off-topic list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic --Dave
Google other web mail (was Re: top posting)
Brad Alexander grabbed a keyboard and wrote: Actually, I can see the point of posting inline, however, leave it to google and other mail apps to go and ruin it. In the gmail web interface, when you reply to an email or even a thread, you get the text entry box, with the message you are responding to hidden by a ... icon. Thus, if you are not paying attention or are trying to respond quickly, it is easily overlooked. I posted in a thread earlier, and was surprised when someone started their response with don't top post. I didn't even realize I had, thanks again to google. In case you were unaware of it, GMail Yahoo Mail both support encrypted POP3 IMAP access to your mail, so you can use the E-Mail client of your choice if you want to. I use Thunderbird with my both my GMail and Yahoo mail accounts and it works just fine. That way I can easily do quote-and-reply properly, and I don't have to look at their ads since I'm not using their web interface. Bonus! :-) If you want to know how to configure a mail program for use with your GMail account, feel free to contact me off-list (since that's really not a Debian thing; I don't want to clutter up the list with that discussion). --Dave smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: mutt tip (was ... Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting)
2009/3/28 Chris Jones cjns1...@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:48:10AM EDT, Chris Bannister wrote: I was asking one of the top-posting advocates to elaborate on archaic mail readers .. written in the 1980s .. I believe he wrote.. I would assume he is not using one himself .. but then who knows.. That would be me and I use Gmail like 300 million other people. I'm also not an advocate of top posting (note, I don't top post). I do, however, think that people who rail against it are stuck in the dark ages of computing (and should probably spend their time worrying about something more important). -- Chris
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 01:30:15PM +, Bob Cox wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:06:11 +1300, Chris Bannister (mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz) wrote: [...] It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. As you use mutt, 'S' should skip to the end of each section of quoted text, or, if you know there is no interleaved quoting, just press the 'End' key to go right to the bottom ;-) Yeah, of course ... oops. Also 'T' toggle-quoted. Although on dial-up, its still a pain downloading all that unnecessary extra redundant data. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:48:26AM EDT, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:11:38PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote: Now then.. I have two bottom posters .. and one top poster.. OK. What do I do? Snip out the irrelevant bits. Do you use vim as your editor? If so you can put a number before the 'dd' command: 40dd will delete 40 lines. Are you kidding.. me, count 40 lines accurately..? :-) I hit V to enter visual mode .. move cursor to the end of what I want to delete and hit d. But that's not what I meant anyway. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: mutt tip (was ... Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting)
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:48:10AM EDT, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:08:35PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote:
What mailer are you referring to? I use mutt and it threads messages
reliably, flagging malformed mails that it adds to a thread when it
You can see what mailer he is using if you put in your .muttrc:
I was asking one of the top-posting advocates to elaborate on archaic
mail readers .. written in the 1980s .. I believe he wrote..
I would assume he is not using one himself .. but then who knows..
-
# What headers are displayed
ignore *
unignore From Date Subject To Cc User-agent X-Mailer
Something has to set User-agent and/or X-Mailer.. and a quick look at
the list - I keep my headers to a minimum and hit h whenever I want to
display them all - gives me over 50% posts that do not have either of
these set.
# What order the headers are displayed
unhdr_order *
hdr_order X-Mailer User-agent From Date To Cc Subject
--
and for added spice create a ~/configs/colours file.
You will need to source the file in your .muttrc, i.e.:
Here's my effort:
# -*- muttrc -*-
#
# Color settings for mutt.
#
# Default color definitions
color normal color250 default
color hdrdefault color136 default
color quoted color244 default
color quoted1color240 default
color quoted2color236 default
color quoted3color244 default
color quoted4color240 default
color quoted5color236 default
color signature color254 default
color indicator color231 color233
color error color88 default
color status black color245
color tree color240 default
color tilde black default
color attachment brightyellow default
color markerscolor240 default
color messagecolor250 default
color search color231 color233
color bold color231 default
# Color definitions when on a mono screen
mono boldbold
mono underline underline
mono indicator reverse
mono error bold
# Colors for message headers
color header color231 default ^(From|Subject):
color header color231 default ^To:
color header color231 default ^Cc:
mono header bold ^(From|Subject):
# This is a mess. What happens when a message is flagged twice?
# reset index to medium grey
color index color242 default
# regular new messages
color index color145 default ~O | ~N
# regular 'old' messages
#color index color145 default ~N
# regular tagged messages
color index color184 default ~T
# regular flagged messages
color index color185 default ~F
# messages to myself
color index color221 default ~p
# messages from myself
color index color221 default ~P
# big messages - don't see much point for this one
#color index color52 default ~z 32765-
# deleted messages
color index color160 default ~D
# Highlights inside the body of a message.
# Attribution lines
color body color208 default \\* [^]+ [^]+ \\[[^]]+\\]:
color body color208 default (^|[^[:alnum:]])on [a-z0-9 ,]+( at [a-z0-9:,.
+-]+)? wrote:
# The TOFU
#color body color231 default \[\-\-\-\=\|
color body color231 default TOFU
# Highlights inside the body of a message.
# URLs
color body color231default (http|https|ftp|news|telnet|finger)://[^
\\t\r\n]*
color body color231default mailto:[-a-z_0-9...@[-a-z_0-9.]+;
mono body bold(http|https|ftp|news|telnet|finger)://[^
\\t\r\n]*
mono body boldmailto:[-a-z_0-9...@[-a-z_0-9.]+;
# email addresses
color body color231default [-a-z_0-9.%...@[-a-z_0-9.]+\\.[-a-z][-a-z]+
mono body bold[-a-z_0-9.%...@[-a-z_0-9.]+\\.[-a-z][-a-z]+
# PGP messages
color bodycolor84 default ^gpg: Good signature .*
color bodycolor250default ^gpg:
color bodycolor88 default ^gpg: BAD signature from.*
mono bodybold^gpg: Good signature
mono bodybold^gpg: BAD signature from.*
# Various smilies and the like
color body color220default [Gg]# g
color body color220default [Bb][Gg]# bg
color body color220default [;:]-*[}){(|] # :-) etc...
# *bold*
color body color231default
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])\\*[^*]+\\*([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
mono body bold
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])\\*[^*]+\\*([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
# _underline_
color body color231default
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])_[^_]+_([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
mono body underline
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])_[^_]+_([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
# /italic/ (Sometimes gets directory names)
color body color231 default
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])/[^/]+/([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
mono body underline
(^|[[:space:][:punct:]])/[^/]+/([[:space:][:punct:]]|$)
# Border lines.
color body
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:04:54PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. No. You obviously should middle post as I have done here: find the median line and insert your comments is the center of it, splitting a word if necessary. I thought my comment implied that. :( -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 10:43:28AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. Then, of course, it follows that not posting at all is ideal. I *should* have said: Without triming bottom posting is just as bad or worse than top posting due to having to scroll to read the reply. The remark Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. was to a post which stated something along the lines of sorry, I mean't bottom posting is the policy for the debian-user list which he wrote after mistakenly saying top posting is the policy for the debian-user list Sorry everyone for the confusion. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
mutt tip (was ... Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting)
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:08:35PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote:
What mailer are you referring to? I use mutt and it threads messages
reliably, flagging malformed mails that it adds to a thread when it
You can see what mailer he is using if you put in your .muttrc:
-
# What headers are displayed
ignore *
unignore From Date Subject To Cc User-agent X-Mailer
# What order the headers are displayed
unhdr_order *
hdr_order X-Mailer User-agent From Date To Cc Subject
--
and for added spice create a ~/configs/colours file.
You will need to source the file in your .muttrc, i.e.:
.muttrc ---
source ~/configs/colours
~/configs/colours
## MUTT COLORS
# valid colors : white, black, green, magenta,
#blue, cyan, yellow, red,
# Each color comes in plain (red) and bright (brightred)
# color thisthing foreground background [arguments]
color normalwhite default
color attachment black cyan
color hdrdefault cyan default
color indicator black green
color markers red default
color index green default ~N # New
color index magenta yellow ~T # Tagged
color index red default ~D # Deleted
color index blue default ~O# Old
#color index red white '~f cron'
#color index red white '~f Anacron'
#color index brightyellow black ~b '\ name.{0,9}\=.{2,30}\.zip'
#color index red yellow '~f root'
color quoted blue default
color quoted1 green default
color quoted2 magenta default
color quoted3 yellow default
color header blue default ^X-Spam-Status:
color header blue default ^X-Spam-Status:
color signature red cyan
color status yellow blue
color tilde blue default
color tree red default
color header blue default ^User-agent:
color header blue default ^From:
color header blue default ^To:
color header blue default ^Date:
color header blue default ^Reply-To:
color header blue default ^Cc:
color header red default ^Subject:
color body red default [\-\.+_a-za-z0-...@[\-\.a-za-z0-9]+
color body blue default (https?|ftp)://[\-\.,/%~_:?=\#a-zA-Z0-9]+
# Errors will be printed in red:
color error brightred brightdefault
# GPG/PGP related color directives:
#mono bodybold^gpg: Good signature
#mono bodyreverse ^gpg: Bad signature from.*
#color bodybrightblack cyan ^gpg: Signature made.*
#color bodybrightblack green ^gpg: Good signature from.*
#color bodybrightblack yellow^gpg: Can't check signature
.*
#color bodybrightblack yellow^gpg: WARNING: .*
#color bodybrightwhite red ^gpg: BAD signature from.*
(sorry, if it wraps. I have vga=791 in my /boot/grub/menu.lst, and dont
have any prob. Those colours may not be suitable in an X terminal.)
--
Chris.
==
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F Roberts
--
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Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:11:38PM -0400, Chris Jones wrote: Now then.. I have two bottom posters .. and one top poster.. OK. What do I do? Snip out the irrelevant bits. Do you use vim as your editor? If so you can put a number before the 'dd' command: 40dd will delete 40 lines. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. Or who reads quite a lot of mail from outhouse users. At least with top posting you don't have to scroll through _all_ the previous posts just to see if the reply is relevant. The problem isn't bottom-posting, it's... More importantly, IMHO is deleting any text which is not relevant. This. Which should be done whether you top- or bottom-post. It's just that with top-posting it's easy to forget to snip out all the crud. Good point!, but I regret it is more to do with laziness and this throw away and damn the consequences[1] way of life. :( One of the mailing lists I am on suffers horribly from top posters, the same software is also availabe for windoze. The admin occassionaly posts a message saying along the lines of bottom posting is the preferred method ... with the consequence that each post grows + grows + grows until it gets really annoying scrolling just to read some silly remark. It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [1] Remembering the story of the Big Mac which was forgotten about in a cupboard and when the person noticed it there a year or so later it looked just as fresh as the day it was purchased - no sign of decay ... nothing, not even the rodents etc. had bothered it. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-24 07:06, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. Or who reads quite a lot of mail from outhouse users. At least with top posting you don't have to scroll through _all_ the previous posts just to see if the reply is relevant. The problem isn't bottom-posting, it's... More importantly, IMHO is deleting any text which is not relevant. This. Which should be done whether you top- or bottom-post. It's just that with top-posting it's easy to forget to snip out all the crud. Good point!, but I regret it is more to do with laziness and this throw away and damn the consequences[1] way of life. :( [snip] [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. Yet another reason for in-/bottom-posting with context: finding the email that it is replying to can be a bit tricky. http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/Far_away_replies.png -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:06:11 +1300, Chris Bannister (mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz) wrote: [...] It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. As you use mutt, 'S' should skip to the end of each section of quoted text, or, if you know there is no interleaved quoting, just press the 'End' key to go right to the bottom ;-) -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. Please reply to the list only. Do NOT send copies directly to me. Debian on the NSLU2: http://bobcox.com/slug/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Tue,24.Mar.09, 13:30:15, Bob Cox wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:06:11 +1300, Chris Bannister (mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz) wrote: [...] It was mentioned that inline posting and deleting unnecessary text is a better method, but that was shrugged off as being too confusing. :o So in that situation I was happier[2] seeing a silly top posting message. [2] Only because I didn't have to press space a dozen or so times. As you use mutt, 'S' should skip to the end of each section of quoted text, or, if you know there is no interleaved quoting, just press the 'End' key to go right to the bottom ;-) skip-quoted by itself is a bit annoying as it doesn't show the last few lines (which should have relevant context). I prefer this: macro index,pager s skip-quotedhalf-up (I use S for save) There is also parent-message (jump to parent message, P by default) but you can't jump back :/ Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Barclay, Daniel dan...@fgm.com mailto:dan...@fgm.com wrote: Christofer C. Bell wrote: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? It doesn't, and you're splitting hairs. No, I'm not. You're presenting unclear and/or unrealistic examples, and I'm calling you on it. In a threaded mail reader, I've just read the previous post, there is zero need to provide context. That's only true if you haven't deleted the previous messages. If you've read a thread, deleted the messages you've read, and then come back later, you have no context via your mail reader. That's when you want some context in each message. This is what it looks like in a threaded mail reader when you're bottom posting: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. This sort of display is annoying. Again, your example is ambiguous and misleading (since the display never shows the above sequence (at any given time)). Apparently you're also talking about the _sequence_ of displays as you read through the messages. Yes, if each message quotes every previous message in its entirety, it is annoying, as you claim. However, proper replying cuts the quoted text down to just what is needed to provide sufficient context. Obviously there's a judgment call there, but don't think thate completely untrimmed quoting is what bottom-posting proponents are arguing for. Imagine a business letter in reply to a previous letter, in particular the stereotypical wording Regarding your letter of date about subject: ... That's the type of thing bottom-posters are arguing for: A reference (via simply quoting, rather than rewording like the Regarding your ... in a letter) to what's being replied to, but not the entire previous message. I understand the other Chris' example just fine. Do you understand mine? Of course not. You construct them too ambiguously. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Not all cultures have the same idea of manners. Another example, all cultures have the similar ideas about stealing, but not so about art. Somethings just have to be, others we can pick. On Sunday 22 March 2009 13:18:44 Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 12:27, Jesus Arocho wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Hmmm. Manners or No Manners; it's an easy choice. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sunday 22 March 2009 23:07:29 Dave Patterson wrote: * Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net [2009-03-22 20:34:50 -0500]: That's hyperbole, at the very least. The original Pentium was released on March 22, 1993. 3 1/2 disks had been available for a while. While the first GB disk wouldn't be seen until 1995, 100MB drives were available. Not in '87. I recalled the modem wrong, though. Memory serves a V.22 complient USR, and it was slower. The message you were replying to, 143f0f6c0903221424x392b99cdpb14d6fe2ee7db...@mail.gmail.com, specifically said 1994. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net mailto:ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: ... A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? Chris's example showed the order of replies in a message constructed with top-posting. Are you trying to win your argument by trying to pull a fast one (by switching to talking about the order in the message-list pane instead of the message), or do you just not understand Chris's example? Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Chris Jones wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:51:31PM EDT, Florian Kulzer wrote: [..] I need to see the relevant context quoted (properly trimmed as the discussion progresses, of course), especially if a thread has run for a while. Most business mail runs something like this: - hey, Dee.. got my fax? (Cc: my boss, her boss.. ) - Yeah, got it.. Thanks! (Cc: same) Where I work, over 90% of the emails that I see are of this nature. There's no need for context whatsoever.. all parties know what the fax is about.. Does that example represent two message or one? If it's one: That's a good example of bottom posting (quoting what's being replied to (got my fax?) for context about the reply (got it). If it's two: How can you argue that there's no need for context? Without context, when someone writes Yeah, got it..., how can the recipient know which thing the writer is asking about (what it represents)? (Well, unless the correspondents can't handle having several things in their queues at once so that at any point in time there's only one possible thing that it could refer to.) Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Barclay, Daniel dan...@fgm.com wrote: Christofer C. Bell wrote: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? It doesn't, and you're splitting hairs. In a threaded mail reader, I've just read the previous post, there is zero need to provide context. This is what it looks like in a threaded mail reader when you're bottom posting: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. This sort of display is annoying. You've already seen what it looks like when top-posted in a modern mail reader (ie; it follows the order in which people normally read text). Chris's example showed the order of replies in a message constructed with top-posting. Are you trying to win your argument by trying to pull a fast one (by switching to talking about the order in the message-list pane instead of the message), or do you just not understand Chris's example? The most common arguments for bottom-posting are based on the mail reader people are using, but without context in my non-threaded, written in 1980 mail reader, I can't tell what the post is about. So obviously, what people are using to read their mail is germane to the discussion. In a modern mail reader, top-posted messages are what flow more naturally. A more successful argument for your position would be to point to mail archives where an entire discussion needs to be preserved in a logical order contained in a single post. Continuing to point to an active discussion thread as proof that top posting is illogical... is illogical. You are doing nothing more than pandering the to the pedantic. I understand the other Chris' example just fine. Do you understand mine? -- Chris
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
In 143f0f6c0903230837k4d6bc8a5r55fe985e82993...@mail.gmail.com, Christofer C. Bell wrote: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. This sort of display is annoying. Thank goodness my threaded mail reader never shows 4 messages at once. (Alright, alright, it *can* but it doesn't do so for me.) That sort of display is completely unheard of. You've already seen what it looks like when top-posted in a modern mail reader (ie; it follows the order in which people normally read text). No, it doesn't. The individual messages are hard to read because they are backwards. The individual message is what matters because the reader either has the whole message or none of it. However, losing a few messages from the middle of a thread (or not getting them before their replies) is not unheard of, even now. I find that this actually happens to me more often now, because my SPAM filters will be overzealous and shuffle one or two posters' messages to my Possible SPAM folder, which I don't check until after I've read the rest of the my mail. When everyone has included relevant context (and not too much of it) the discussion is still easy to follow. The most common arguments for bottom-posting are based on the mail reader people are using, but without context in my non-threaded, written in 1980 mail reader, I can't tell what the post is about. No, they are based on the fact that email is not a guaranteed delivery service and endpoint or intermediate servers may delay a message for days. [1] Because of this, context needs to be provided and ordered so that each message stands alone as much as possible. So obviously, what people are using to read their mail is germane to the discussion. In a modern mail reader, top-posted messages are what flow more naturally. The thread as a whole may flow slightly more naturally, but even that is arguable. However, even in a threaded mail reader, I still jump into the middle of threads all the time. I'll read the first half before work, another part in the afternoon, and the final messages over the weekend, for example. It helps for each message to contain relevant content so I don't have to go back and read the whole thread each time. Since I follow 20+ mailing lists, plus my personal and work mail, re-reading messages is not something I do much. Also, for discussions that are archived on the web, it helps for messages to have the proper amount of context because search engines and all the other methods for finding the page you need can often provide a link into the middle or end of a discussion. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ [1] Intermediate servers are rare these days. A delay over a few minutes is also not seen much either, but I've seen it this year, so it's not like it never happens. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:57:09AM EDT, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Chris Jones wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:51:31PM EDT, Florian Kulzer wrote: [..] I need to see the relevant context quoted (properly trimmed as the discussion progresses, of course), especially if a thread has run for a while. Most business mail runs something like this: - hey, Dee.. got my fax? (Cc: my boss, her boss.. ) - Yeah, got it.. Thanks! (Cc: same) Where I work, over 90% of the emails that I see are of this nature. There's no need for context whatsoever.. all parties know what the fax is about.. Does that example represent two message or one? If it's one: That's a good example of bottom posting (quoting what's being replied to (got my fax?) for context about the reply (got it). If it's two: How can you argue that there's no need for context? That's my point .. it's not e-mail .. it's instant messaging. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:37:21AM -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Barclay, Daniel dan...@fgm.com wrote: Christofer C. Bell wrote: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Wrong. Since when does even a threaded mail reader rearrange the content within a single message into a different order? It doesn't, and you're splitting hairs. In a threaded mail reader, I've just read the previous post, there is zero need to provide context. This is what it looks like in a threaded mail reader when you're bottom posting: true, I read my mail in the morning (in oz so my morning is the us evening) and most of the threads have been created, so I read them in order and in-line/bottom posting is actually more of a hassle, because for the majority of time I read the whole thread in one go. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Top-posting. Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. 'Click your heels 3 times and repeat after me there's no place like home' say it three times and its true! [snip] I disagree with top posting being bad, but as a good netizen I comply with the way things are done on the list (rightly or wrongly) -- I think we ought to raise the age at which juveniles can have a gun. - George W. Bush 10/18/2000 St. Louis, MO During the third presidential debate signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:16:12PM EDT, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: In 143f0f6c0903230837k4d6bc8a5r55fe985e82993...@mail.gmail.com, Christofer C. Bell wrote: [..] Thank goodness my threaded mail reader never shows 4 messages at once. (Alright, alright, it *can* but it doesn't do so for me.) That sort of display is completely unheard of. Unless the messages have everything in the subject .. and no body..? Believe me I've seen a lot of that in the enterprise world .. or half a line subjects.. As I mentioned elsewhere it's a bit of a cross between e-mail and instant messaging .. with the advantage that the bean-counters can print each and every mail and .. file it, I guess. You've already seen what it looks like when top-posted in a modern mail reader (ie; it follows the order in which people normally read text). No, it doesn't. The individual messages are hard to read because they are backwards. The individual message is what matters because the reader either has the whole message or none of it. However, losing a few messages from the middle of a thread (or not getting them before their replies) is not unheard of, even now. Happens to me all the time.. a boring thread that I kept deleting and for some reason or other I want to go back to something from some subthread or other that I don't have any more. I find that this actually happens to me more often now, because my SPAM filters will be overzealous and shuffle one or two posters' messages to my Possible SPAM folder, which I don't check until after I've read the rest of the my mail. When everyone has included relevant context (and not too much of it) the discussion is still easy to follow. The most common arguments for bottom-posting are based on the mail reader people are using, but without context in my non-threaded, written in 1980 mail reader, I can't tell what the post is about. What mailer are you referring to? I use mutt and it threads messages reliably, flagging malformed mails that it adds to a thread when it thinks that's where it belongs, allows you to either split or join threads.. Sure it's not from 1980 .. 1995 .. only wrinkle this mailer has .. well he's sitting on it. No, they are based on the fact that email is not a guaranteed delivery service and endpoint or intermediate servers may delay a message for days. [1] Because of this, context needs to be provided and ordered so that each message stands alone as much as possible. So obviously, what people are using to read their mail is germane to the discussion. In a modern mail reader, top-posted messages are what flow more naturally. The thread as a whole may flow slightly more naturally, but even that is arguable. However, even in a threaded mail reader, I still jump into the middle of threads all the time. I'll read the first half before work, another part in the afternoon, and the final messages over the weekend, for example. It helps for each message to contain relevant content so I don't have to go back and read the whole thread each time. Since I follow 20+ mailing lists, plus my personal and work mail, re-reading messages is not something I do much. Also, for discussions that are archived on the web, it helps for messages to have the proper amount of context because search engines and all the other methods for finding the page you need can often provide a link into the middle or end of a discussion. Didn't trim .. sums it up better than I could. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 06:32:04AM EDT, Jesus Arocho wrote: Not all cultures have the same idea of manners. Another example, all cultures have the similar ideas about stealing, but not so about art. Somethings just have to be, others we can pick. On Sunday 22 March 2009 13:18:44 Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 12:27, Jesus Arocho wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Hmmm. Manners or No Manners; it's an easy choice. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. Now then.. I have two bottom posters .. and one top poster.. What do I do? Oh, and since this subthread is about table manners, culture.. thanks to my archaic mailer .. I can split it off the main tree and plonk its OT-ness. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 04:09:29AM -0700, Angus Auld wrote: [snipped **H E A P S** of unnecessary text] Proof reading might also be a good idea, as is evidenced by my mistakenly saying that top-posting is the established method here. ;) Bottom-posting of course is the prevailing method on debian-user. My apologies to all. The rest of my comments withstanding. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. At least with top posting you don't have to scroll through _all_ the previous posts just to see if the reply is relevant. More importantly, IMHO is deleting any text which is not relevant. Yeah, OK this is technically a bottom post post, but only because I am replying to your one point, but if there were other points I would reply under each point (snipping unnecessay text) in turn. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 04:09:29AM -0700, Angus Auld wrote: [snipped **H E A P S** of unnecessary text] Proof reading might also be a good idea, as is evidenced by my mistakenly saying that top-posting is the established method here. ;) Bottom-posting of course is the prevailing method on debian-user. My apologies to all. The rest of my comments withstanding. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? At least with top posting you don't have to scroll through _all_ the previous posts just to see if the reply is relevant. The problem isn't bottom-posting, it's... More importantly, IMHO is deleting any text which is not relevant. This. Which should be done whether you top- or bottom-post. It's just that with top-posting it's easy to forget to snip out all the crud. Yeah, OK this is technically a bottom post post, but only because I am replying to your one point, but if there were other points I would reply under each point (snipping unnecessay text) in turn. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. It looks no different than a discussion forum or other normal conversation. In fact, reading bottom-posted threads in a *modern mail reader* is annoying as it forces the reader to display a bunch of extraneous unnecessary text (the quoted material). I just read it in the previous post, I don't need to see it again. I bottom-post out of force of habit, however, it's archaic and generally unnecessary. -- Chris
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-22 12:27, Jesus Arocho wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Hmmm. Manners or No Manners; it's an easy choice. Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. Then, of course, it follows that not posting at all is ideal. -- Bob Holtzman Light a man's fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
wrote: Bell C. Christofer EDT, 12:52:54PM at 2009 22, Mar Sun, On Chris -- unnecessary. I bottom-post out of force of habit, however, it's archaic and generally post, I don't need to see it again. unnecessary text (the quoted material). I just read it in the previous annoying as it forces the reader to display a bunch of extraneous In fact, reading bottom-posted threads in a *modern mail reader* is It looks no different than a discussion forum or other normal conversation. text. Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade Shoot.. what the hell happened..?? :-) As to untrimmed posts, I use a little utility named t-prot that hides overlong quoted material by default so that I never get to see anything that doesn't fit on one screen .. and in the event I really need to take a look at it, I'm only a convenient Alt+0 away to make it reappear. But then, after having struggled with Microsoft Outlook clones for years I switched to mutt, an archaic mail reader, that I am foolish enough to think lets me handle fairly large volumes of mail a lot more efficiently than all that GUI stuff. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sunday 22 March 2009 17:18:44 Ron Johnson wrote: The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, Hmmm. Manners or No Manners; it's an easy choice. No - the poster has a valid point. Both the cases he cites are cases where cultures do not agree on what is polite. I am half English, half Hungarian Jewish. When I visited my English relatives I had to keep my hands on my lap. Anything else produced strong reprimands. When I visited my Hungarian relatives, my hands had to be above the table. They didn't mind about _how_ I kept my hands above the table, just so long as I did so. There are, I know, cultures (e.g. Anglo-Saxon ones) that regard burping as rude, and others where burping at the end of a meal is obligatory in order to show your host that you are well fed. The solution in both cases - manners and where you post - is surely: when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:52:54 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Your argument assumes that all subscribers keep the older mails, or that they remember the previous discussion. I don't think that this a valid assumption for a high-volume mailing list with almost 3000 subscribers and 80-100 messages posted on an average day. It looks no different than a discussion forum or other normal conversation. In fact, reading bottom-posted threads in a *modern mail reader* is annoying as it forces the reader to display a bunch of extraneous unnecessary text (the quoted material). Maybe you should switch to a MUA that has a command to collapse quoted text. I just read it in the previous post, I don't need to see it again. I need to see the relevant context quoted (properly trimmed as the discussion progresses, of course), especially if a thread has run for a while. I simply do not have the time to search through the archive for the background information that I would need to join an ongoing discussion. I bottom-post out of force of habit, however, it's archaic and generally unnecessary. For the reason outlined above, I think that replying inline with prudent trimming of the older content is important on mailing lists like debian-user. If you make it difficult for other people to follow the discussion then you reduce your chances of getting good answers. -- Regards,| http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer Florian | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. No. You obviously should middle post as I have done here: find the median line and insert your comments is the center of it, splitting a word if necessary. Bob Holtzman writes: Then, of course, it follows that not posting at all is ideal. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:52:54 -0500 Christofer C. Bell christofer.c.b...@gmail.com wrote: ... This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon Sylpheed doesn't support HTML mail, although it does its best to display a text version. We consider this a feature, not a bug. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-22 11:52, Christofer C. Bell wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2009-03-22 11:45, Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) I'm proud to be a middle-aged hater of gmail, Outlook, file managers and over-reliance on GUIs, and lover of OpenVMS, bash, xnethack and apt-get. Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Having used a threaded MUA for 15 years, I can confidently say that no MUA reorganizes posts. It looks no different than a discussion forum or other normal conversation. In fact, reading bottom-posted threads in a *modern mail reader* is annoying as it forces the reader to display a bunch of extraneous unnecessary text (the quoted material). I just read it in the previous post, I don't need to see it again. Emails, unlike web forum posts, tend to get deleted. Thus, retaining context is useful. Another reason to retain context: even for people who retain all their email, long multi-branched threads can make it hard to find a post's parent. I bottom-post out of force of habit, however, it's archaic and generally unnecessary. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:27:13 -0400 Jesus Arocho jesus_aro...@comcast.net wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, It is not; your examples are primarily issues of pure convention or manners, without much inherent significance, except perhaps aesthetics. There are real, objective argument for different posting styles. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
In non-tech lists, top-posting suggests that the writer is (a) unaware that Westerners read from top down, or (b) unable to edit plain text. Or both. Debian-users ought not wish to appear so inconsiderate incompetent. Wendell Cochran West Seattle -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:04:54PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Chris Bannister wrote: Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. No. You obviously should middle post as I have done here: find the median ROTF line and insert your comments is the center of it, splitting a word if You should patent this! necessary. Bob Holtzman writes: Then, of course, it follows that not posting at all is ideal. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-22 14:28, Celejar wrote: On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:27:13 -0400 Jesus Arocho jesus_aro...@comcast.net wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, It is not; your examples are primarily issues of pure convention or manners, without much inherent significance, except perhaps aesthetics. There are real, objective argument for different posting styles. Except that Our arguments are Right, and Theirs are Eeeevil. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-22 14:32, Wendell Cochran wrote: In non-tech lists, top-posting suggests that the writer is (a) unaware that Westerners read from top down, or (b) unable to edit plain text. Or both. Debian-users ought not wish to appear so inconsiderate incompetent. Or... only technically-astute people should be allowed on the Internet. That way, it doesn't degenerate into the Intarweb of tubes and spam. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Or... only technically-astute people should be allowed on the Internet. That way, it doesn't degenerate into the Intarweb of tubes and spam. I remember the days before 1994 and the Great AOL Floodgates opening... -- Chris
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
2009/3/23 Christofer C. Bell christofer.c.b...@gmail.com: This isn't true. Come enter the 21st Century, it started nearly a decade ago. ;-) Top posting works well in a modern threaded mail reader (all of which, incidentally, support HTML email). Because *you* are a curmudgeon doesn't mean everyone else has to be. ;-) Your example looks like this in a threaded mail reader: Mail 1: Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Mail 2: A: Top-posting. Mail 3: Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Mail 4: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. It looks no different than a discussion forum or other normal conversation. In fact, reading bottom-posted threads in a *modern mail reader* is annoying as it forces the reader to display a bunch of extraneous unnecessary text (the quoted material). I just read it in the previous post, I don't need to see it again. I bottom-post out of force of habit, however, it's archaic and generally unnecessary. -- Chris Now imagine you are CC'd in on the conversation with no warning at Mail 4, Now try to sort out why you have been CC'd in through all the fancy fonts|colours, underlining background pictures, flashing text and the like in an email that is now (to print it) 5 A4 pages long. IMHO Personally I despise HTML and anything 'fancy' if it dosen't add to the message it's noise. Adrian -- 24x7x365 != 24x7x52 Stupid or bad maths? erno hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
* Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net [2009-03-22 16:06:06 -0500]: Except that Our arguments are Right, and Theirs are Eeeevil. Here we go. I can imagine the hearings now: Are you now, or have you ever been, a top poster? -- Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
* Christofer C. Bell christofer.c.b...@gmail.com [2009-03-22 16:24:52 -0500]: I remember the days before 1994 and the Great AOL Floodgates opening... A 286 accelerator card in an 8086 IBM with a 20 Mg hard drive and 5 1/4 floppy drive. 56k modem. Hotrod machine for the day. I don't miss it. -- Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
In 20090323010320.gb7...@gecko.davescrunch.org, Dave Patterson wrote: * Christofer C. Bell christofer.c.b...@gmail.com [2009-03-22 16:24:52 -0500]: I remember the days before 1994 and the Great AOL Floodgates opening... A 286 accelerator card in an 8086 IBM with a 20 Mg hard drive and 5 1/4 floppy drive. 56k modem. Hotrod machine for the day. That's hyperbole, at the very least. The original Pentium was released on March 22, 1993. 3 1/2 disks had been available for a while. While the first GB disk wouldn't be seen until 1995, 100MB drives were available. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:51:31PM EDT, Florian Kulzer wrote: [..] I need to see the relevant context quoted (properly trimmed as the discussion progresses, of course), especially if a thread has run for a while. Most business mail runs something like this: - hey, Dee.. got my fax? (Cc: my boss, her boss.. ) - Yeah, got it.. Thanks! (Cc: same) Where I work, over 90% of the emails that I see are of this nature. There's no need for context whatsoever.. all parties know what the fax is about.. and since delivery is accompanied by a pop-up in the bottom right corner of the Microsoft Windows session of everyone concerned.. provided the sender _top-posted_ and was brief enough to accomodate the size limitations of the Microsoft Outlook pop-up.. the recipients of the e-mail won't even waste company time switching from their Microsoft Excel spreadsheets to their Microsoft Outlook mail readers and opening the e-mail. How these Microsoft-centric methodologies could benefit *nix mailing lists is beyond me. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 07:56:35AM +1000, Adrian Levi wrote: 2009/3/23 Christofer C. Bell christofer.c.b...@gmail.com: [snip] I bottom-post out of force of habit, however, it's archaic and generally unnecessary. -- Chris Now imagine you are CC'd in on the conversation with no warning at Mail 4, Now try to sort out why you have been CC'd in through all the fancy fonts|colours, underlining background pictures, flashing text and the like in an email that is now (to print it) 5 A4 pages long. rather unfair test, you could say imagine you got the replies with out any of the context. IMHO Personally I despise HTML and anything 'fancy' if it dosen't add to the message it's noise. Adrian -- 24x7x365 != 24x7x52 Stupid or bad maths? erno hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating. - George W. Bush 04/23/2002 as quoted by the New York Daily News signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 01:27:13PM -0400, Jesus Arocho wrote: Hee, Hee; are you trying to humiliate people into using bottom posting by associating them with use of Windows? The debate of top/bottom posting is much alike elbows on/off the table, burp/not burp after a meal, etc, true Bottom posting of course is just as bad or worse than top posting. The only person who can say that with a straight face is one who has spent too much time using Windows. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- The American people would not want to know of any misquotes that George Bush may or may not make. - George W. Bush signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On 2009-03-22 19:52, Dave Patterson wrote: * Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net [2009-03-22 16:06:06 -0500]: Except that Our arguments are Right, and Theirs are Eeeevil. Here we go. I can imagine the hearings now: Are you now, or have you ever been, a top poster? You must have missed the Editor Wars... Why do we have to hide from the police, Daddy? Because we use vi, son. They use emacs. Escape Meta Alt Control Shift Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping EMACS Makes Any Computer Slow -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
* Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net [2009-03-22 21:20:30 -0500]: You must have missed the Editor Wars... Why do we have to hide from the police, Daddy? Because we use vi, son. They use emacs. Escape Meta Alt Control Shift Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping EMACS Makes Any Computer Slow Hoo, boy. Can a participant apply for PTSD benefits as a veteran of that one? How about the border skirmishes: vi/vim, emacs/xemacs, nano's ongoing insurgency -- Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Mar 22, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-22 19:52, Dave Patterson wrote: * Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net [2009-03-22 16:06:06 -0500]: Except that Our arguments are Right, and Theirs are Eeeevil. Here we go. I can imagine the hearings now: Are you now, or have you ever been, a top poster? You must have missed the Editor Wars... Why do we have to hide from the police, Daddy? Because we use vi, son. They use emacs. Escape Meta Alt Control Shift Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping EMACS Makes Any Computer Slow Then just use another OS besides Emacs. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
* Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net [2009-03-22 20:34:50 -0500]: That's hyperbole, at the very least. The original Pentium was released on March 22, 1993. 3 1/2 disks had been available for a while. While the first GB disk wouldn't be seen until 1995, 100MB drives were available. Not in '87. I recalled the modem wrong, though. Memory serves a V.22 complient USR, and it was slower. -- Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:32:20 +0100 mouss mo...@ml.netoyen.net wrote: ... now, when I respond to specific points in the quoted message, I bottom post. unfortunately, many people are not used to this, and find it hard to continue the discussion consistently: they often don't understand levels of nesting using multiple '', so they get creative and use colors, bold, italics, ... after few exchanges, the message has a lot of colors, which is more distracting than helpful. Additionally, IIUC, these 'colors' are implemented using HTML, and some of us use mailers that are not configured / can't be configured to display HTML. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Sander Marechal a écrit : [snip] Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation. This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages appearing in the wrong order. but that also creates a problem. I used to get mail from a customer, with the full history of exchanges they got with other vendors (some being our competitors, and I'm sure they wouldn't like to see their messages forwarded to us!). at $dayjob, I often top post, but I snip old text unless I see a benefit in keeping it. and in any case, I snip it if it survives few exchanges. now, when I respond to specific points in the quoted message, I bottom post. unfortunately, many people are not used to this, and find it hard to continue the discussion consistently: they often don't understand levels of nesting using multiple '', so they get creative and use colors, bold, italics, ... after few exchanges, the message has a lot of colors, which is more distracting than helpful. [snip] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Comments inline ;-p Daniel Burrows a écrit : My experience has also been that attempting to bottom-post in a corporate environment confuses people because they can't find your reply. When people know the conventions, bottom-posting is a lot clearer, but if it just confuses them, there's not much point. when it's not obvious, I use the blah blah inline as exemplified here. seems to be ok for everybody I communicated with. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
--- On Thu, 3/12/09, Bob Cox debian-u...@lists.bobcox.com wrote: From: Bob Cox debian-u...@lists.bobcox.com Subject: Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 12:55 PM On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 00:12:15 -0500, Kumar Appaiah (a.ku...@alumni.iitm.ac.in) wrote: On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:04:29PM -0700, Ken Teague wrote: There's nothing more painful when reading e-mail than to start from the very bottom, read the message, then begin to read each reply upwards. It becomes really bad when some replies are more than a page long because you now have to scroll back down to read it, then scroll up to find the next reply. Weeding through top-posts makes me want to kick someones cat. There's something worse than that: A mixture of top and bottom posts! From the level of quoting at least, one can decipher pure top posted mails (however painful that is). But a potent combination of the two becomes so disastrous that I just forget reading that thread! :-) I couldn't agree more. I have just been reading another thread on this list which has had its readability irrevocably destroyed by a top-poster. On top of this, our top-posting friend wrote in HTML, tripling the size of his worthless contribution and to cap it all, cc'd the list and replied directly to the previous contributor in the thread (not the OP, who just might have appreciated it). Worse than useless. -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. It seems to me that following the established procedure on the mailing list you are seeking help from, be that top-posting, as is the established method here, or bottom-posting, as may be the established procedure elsewhere, is a small thing to do to keep everything functioning in a more orderly fashion. I see nothing wrong with that procedure being pointed out to posters who may not be aware of the prevailing method. Why would one want to upset the very ppl you are seeking help from, and who contribute freely of their time to help others who are genuinely interested in being helped? Just my views.best regards to all. -- Angus All churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, appear to me no other than human inventions, setup to terrify and enslave mankind - and to monopolize power and profit. -- Thomas Paine (1737-1809) ###Laptop powered by Debian Linux### ##Reg. Linux User #278931## -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
--- On Fri, 3/13/09, Angus Auld aonghas_a...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Angus Auld aonghas_a...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting To: debian-user debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 10:55 AM --- On Thu, 3/12/09, Bob Cox debian-u...@lists.bobcox.com wrote: From: Bob Cox debian-u...@lists.bobcox.com Subject: Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 12:55 PM On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 00:12:15 -0500, Kumar Appaiah (a.ku...@alumni.iitm.ac.in) wrote: On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:04:29PM -0700, Ken Teague wrote: There's nothing more painful when reading e-mail than to start from the very bottom, read the message, then begin to read each reply upwards. It becomes really bad when some replies are more than a page long because you now have to scroll back down to read it, then scroll up to find the next reply. Weeding through top-posts makes me want to kick someones cat. There's something worse than that: A mixture of top and bottom posts! From the level of quoting at least, one can decipher pure top posted mails (however painful that is). But a potent combination of the two becomes so disastrous that I just forget reading that thread! :-) I couldn't agree more. I have just been reading another thread on this list which has had its readability irrevocably destroyed by a top-poster. On top of this, our top-posting friend wrote in HTML, tripling the size of his worthless contribution and to cap it all, cc'd the list and replied directly to the previous contributor in the thread (not the OP, who just might have appreciated it). Worse than useless. -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. It seems to me that following the established procedure on the mailing list you are seeking help from, be that top-posting, as is the established method here, or bottom-posting, as may be the established procedure elsewhere, is a small thing to do to keep everything functioning in a more orderly fashion. I see nothing wrong with that procedure being pointed out to posters who may not be aware of the prevailing method. Why would one want to upset the very ppl you are seeking help from, and who contribute freely of their time to help others who are genuinely interested in being helped? Just my views.best regards to all. -- Angus Proof reading might also be a good idea, as is evidenced by my mistakenly saying that top-posting is the established method here. ;) Bottom-posting of course is the prevailing method on debian-user. My apologies to all. The rest of my comments withstanding. Best regards. -- Angus All churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, appear to me no other than human inventions, setup to terrify and enslave mankind - and to monopolize power and profit. -- Thomas Paine (1737-1809) ###Laptop powered by Debian Linux### ##Reg. Linux User #278931## -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Alex Samad wrote: isn't that a reason for top posting? No, because with bottom posting you can quote just a little bit of an e-mail and put your response directly below it. This is a big boon with larger e-mails because you can respond to multiple statements or questions in turn. Of course, when bottom posting you should take care to quote only the bit you need to and not the full e-mail. Just like I'm doing here and just like you did in your previous e-mail. -- Sander Marechal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 00:12:15 -0500, Kumar Appaiah (a.ku...@alumni.iitm.ac.in) wrote: On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:04:29PM -0700, Ken Teague wrote: There's nothing more painful when reading e-mail than to start from the very bottom, read the message, then begin to read each reply upwards. It becomes really bad when some replies are more than a page long because you now have to scroll back down to read it, then scroll up to find the next reply. Weeding through top-posts makes me want to kick someones cat. There's something worse than that: A mixture of top and bottom posts! From the level of quoting at least, one can decipher pure top posted mails (however painful that is). But a potent combination of the two becomes so disastrous that I just forget reading that thread! :-) I couldn't agree more. I have just been reading another thread on this list which has had its readability irrevocably destroyed by a top-poster. On top of this, our top-posting friend wrote in HTML, tripling the size of his worthless contribution and to cap it all, cc'd the list and replied directly to the previous contributor in the thread (not the OP, who just might have appreciated it). Worse than useless. -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. Please reply to the list only. Do NOT send copies directly to me. Debian on the NSLU2: http://bobcox.com/slug/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Daniel Burrows wrote: My experience has also been that attempting to bottom-post in a corporate environment confuses people because they can't find your reply. That's when the sender needs to trim out what doesn't need to be there. It's not necessary to quote the entire previous e-mail. The reader shouldn't have to read the entire previous message to understand what someone is replying about. They also shouldn't need to read the reply before that, either. If they do, they should go back and reference the thread and go from there. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 10:00:28AM +0100, Sander Marechal wrote: Alex Samad wrote: isn't that a reason for top posting? No, because with bottom posting you can quote just a little bit of an e-mail and put your response directly below it. This is a big boon with larger e-mails because you can respond to multiple statements or questions in turn. I think you have cut out the relevant information, the op was saying that if you read through a series of emails and you have to scroll down to the bottom of the email because it is bottom or inline posting. To me if you have read the last 30 emails and they were all top post you have the history and you only had to read the top bit not search through the email looking for the answers. Remembering that you have just read the last email before this one and thus have all the relevant information. This is completely different when access a thread from archive. (note I am not taking the side of top or bottom posting, I am nice netizen who tries to follow the rules/etiquette s of the ml) Of course, when bottom posting you should take care to quote only the bit you need to and not the full e-mail. Just like I'm doing here and just like you did in your previous e-mail. -- Sander Marechal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- America better beware of a candidate who is willing to stretch reality in order to win points. - George W. Bush 09/18/2000 aboard his campaign plane signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Steven Demetrius wrote: For all you posters discussing Top posting vs Bottom posting and taking other threads off topic here is a thread for you. First my opinion, Since this mailing list historically has been Bottom posting then we stick with it. good point. personally the most e-mails i receive and sent are in a corporate environment and everybody uses top posting there, i clearly see it has benefits since it is used more as a notification to have the latest one (and probably most relevant) on top and thus it works fine. also noticed that you can easily read the chain of command of an organization by seeing who starts the mails and who has the final reply. on mailing lists however mails are used as a discussion between peers with many inns and outs instead of a notification, and then the latest reply is not always the most relevant. Using both top and bottom posting in the mailing list will lead to inconsistency and confusion especially to for new users. agreed, just choose one and get over it, but as far as i know this choice has been made long time ago. I've also seen posts about not being able to bottom post because of MS Outlook. Last time I checked MS Outlook was not available in Debian, not even any other Linux distribution. By the way MS Outlook does and cut and paste features. :) then don't use MS Outlook, any other mailer can do this. Now the fun begins. Steven. -- www.songshu.org Just another collection of nuts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 07:23, randall rand...@songshu.org wrote: personally the most e-mails i receive and sent are in a corporate environment and everybody uses top posting there, i clearly see it has benefits since it is used more as a notification to have the latest one (and probably most relevant) on top and thus it works fine. also noticed that you can easily read the chain of command of an organization by seeing who starts the mails and who has the final reply. I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Ever seen IT Crew? As for the chain of comand you could use the quotation header's timestamp, but i don't see your corporate average Joe doing that. :) I've also seen posts about not being able to bottom post because of MS Outlook. Last time I checked MS Outlook was not available in Debian, not even any other Linux distribution. By the way MS Outlook does and cut and paste features. :) C'mon, if you're not using your home computer you might not be using GNU/Linux (sad but true). Last i heard™ email is based on STMP and others, not on Linux ;) Nuno Magalhães LU#484677 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Nuno Magalhães wrote: I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation. This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages appearing in the wrong order. For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit. Of course, the *real* solution would be to start using mailinglists inside corporate environments as well ;-) -- Sander Marechal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:18:52PM +0100, Sander Marechal wrote: Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There Not really. is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation. This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages appearing in the wrong order. And for this probability your wasting bandwidth, CPU time and disk space? Maybe your coworker is connected via mobile phone? And just CCing the mail with all the previous mails is not a good thing either. You may not have the permission to do so, because the mail was sent to the given recipients not anyone else. But no top poster will check all the included old mails, if the content is meant for the new recipient. If you want to include new recipients, write a summary and if you have the permissions attach necessary mails. There are even mime types for such cases. Most people seem to forget that it is not the job of the recipient to search for some kind of information in a big mail beeing not even in normal reading order. It is the job of the sender. If he is not interested in writing proper mails, then why should the recipient care? And in my experience the probability, that top poster forget to answer some of your questions or that you don’t know to which question the answer belongs, is much higher. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | PGP Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/pgp.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:31:39AM +, Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt was heard to say: I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Ever seen IT Crew? As for the chain of comand you could use the quotation header's timestamp, but i don't see your corporate average Joe doing that. :) My experience has also been that attempting to bottom-post in a corporate environment confuses people because they can't find your reply. When people know the conventions, bottom-posting is a lot clearer, but if it just confuses them, there's not much point. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Sander Marechal wrote: Nuno Magalhães wrote: I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation. This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages appearing in the wrong order. For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit. Of course, the *real* solution would be to start using mailinglists inside corporate environments as well ;-) ...when is a mail part of a mailinglist? Top-quoting is plain offensive if everyone else does the opposite. I'm posting this froma GUI client (mozilla) to see if it's really that different. Jens. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote: Sander Marechal wrote: Nuno Magalhães wrote: I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation. This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages appearing in the wrong order. For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit. Of course, the *real* solution would be to start using mailinglists inside corporate environments as well ;-) ...when is a mail part of a mailinglist? Top-quoting is plain offensive if everyone else does the opposite. I'm posting this froma GUI client (mozilla) to see if it's really that different. Jens. answer: it isn't. -- .''`. Jens Van Broeckhoven : :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debian.org/ `. `' Free Software Foundation http://www.fsf.org/ `-Top-post-whole-quote-syndrome is evil! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:48 AM, Steven Demetrius wrote: For all you posters discussing Top posting vs Bottom posting and taking other threads off topic here is a thread for you. On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Stephen D. Barnes wrote: Alan B. Pearce wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Tamas Rudnai wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:59 AM, M. Adam Davis wrote: No Vitaliy wrote: lAoNvDe W H A T A B O U T M I XE DWoPuOtSeTrE RvSa?n Ooijen wrote: for Top and bottom posters: unite, and rally side to battle against the non-trimmers! posters? :,-( Our cause is just, we shall prevail! ɯɐpɐ- ¡dn sɯoʇʇoq ˙(ʇıuɐɔ) ƃuıɯɯıɹʇ ǝʇɐnbǝpɐuı ʎllɐuıɯou ʇsuıɐƃɐ uoıʇılɐoɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɹoddns sɹǝʇsod dn ɯoʇʇoq ǝɥʇ 'ǝɹɐ ǝʍ sɐ pǝʇuǝsǝɹdǝɹɹǝpun sɐ (CANIT - Coalition Against Nominally Inadequate Trimming) Will you please stop posting from Down Under ; W f h r a o t m a o b v o e u r t h e r e ? Maybe it's time I start having a standard link to a standard argument about top vs. bottom vs. side vs. diagonal vs. mixed posting. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:18:52PM +0100, Sander Marechal wrote: Nuno Magalhães wrote: [snip] For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is isn't that a reason for top posting, if you have already read the previous emails, don't you want to just get to the new information with out having to read the stuff you just read in the previous email ? not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit. [snip] -- Sander Marechal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- I'm a Hollywood writer; so I put on a sports jacket and take off my brain. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
isn't that a reason for top posting, if you have already read the previous emails, don't you want to just get to the new information with out having to read the stuff you just read in the previous email ? Well if the bottom-poster just leaves the cited text without any sort of cleaning, i.e., leaving full messages instead of just leaving the content s/he's replying to... then yeah, it's kinda irrelevant (and it happens a lot here as well). Otherwise you'll just skim through brief excerpts of text that provide you with context until you get to the new data. My 0.02 Nuno Magalhães LU#484677 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
Sander Marechal wrote: Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation. This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages appearing in the wrong order. There's nothing more painful when reading e-mail than to start from the very bottom, read the message, then begin to read each reply upwards. It becomes really bad when some replies are more than a page long because you now have to scroll back down to read it, then scroll up to find the next reply. Weeding through top-posts makes me want to kick someones cat. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Top posting vs Bottom posting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:04:29PM -0700, Ken Teague wrote: There's nothing more painful when reading e-mail than to start from the very bottom, read the message, then begin to read each reply upwards. It becomes really bad when some replies are more than a page long because you now have to scroll back down to read it, then scroll up to find the next reply. Weeding through top-posts makes me want to kick someones cat. There's something worse than that: A mixture of top and bottom posts! From the level of quoting at least, one can decipher pure top posted mails (however painful that is). But a potent combination of the two becomes so disastrous that I just forget reading that thread! :-) Kumar -- Kumar Appaiah -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: top-posting
Dotan Cohen wrote: Why did you think that I killfiled you there? I remember getting in the crossfire between you and someone else a few months ago, but I don't remember there ever being a problem between us. Well, shoot, I know someone did and thought it was you. Was for something rather mild, too. Oh well, my apologies, Dotan. I'm just all over the board on this thread aren't I. I blame it on the flu I've got. *cough, cough* Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket! -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: top-posting
Just like I had seen only your post, and not Steve's. Know that that is likely to happen before you decide to be violent or troll. The irony here is that the reason this is so is because Dotan's got me killfilled for my messages over on KU-U, a forum on which I am far, far, more restrained when compared to D-U. ;) No, you are not killfiled there either. The reason that I saw Wendall's post is the that he changed the subject, and my broken mailer (Gmail) flagged it as a new thread. I randomly read new threads and fell on this one. Why did you think that I killfiled you there? I remember getting in the crossfire between you and someone else a few months ago, but I don't remember there ever being a problem between us. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Re: top-posting
On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 06:01:34PM -0700, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-07_00:39:18, Terence wrote: Date: Fri Mar ?6 11:06:29 2009 From: Joe McDonagh To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Hey Steve, I love that just by typing up here above e-mails I can make smug users like you go postal. I feel powerful. If being the sort of irritating sad little tit you apparently are makes you feel powerful, go for it. As Wendall said Top-posting inconveniences almost everyone but you obviously have nothing else in your life to offer the same sort of high. There is a big world out there beyond the confines of the Debian lists. There is a lot of top posting out there. It must be easy for twits to come to believe that top posting is always, and everywhere, I am sure on those other ml they believe non top posters are twits. ML's are communities were we try and respect each other. I personally don't care in some circumstances I find it easier to follow hundreds of threads by reading them top post, because I down want to page down to read the 1 or 2 liner. Other times I prefer inline responses and other times bottom only responses. My rule of thumb respect the list even if you think it is wrong. As for calling people names because they don't follow your posting rules, well thats just plain silly but sticks and stones OK. And that people who object are fair game for intimidation. and ridicule, but --- here on Debian lists is a special place. Here is a place for people who are above the common herd. And. no, this is not sarcasm. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- As you know, we don't have relationships with Iran. I mean, that's -- ever since the late '70s, we have no contacts with them, and we've totally sanctioned them. In other words, there's no sanctions -- you can't -- we're out of sanctions. - George W. Bush 08/09/2004 Annandale, VA signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: top-posting
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:32 AM, karun ka...@mail.karund.de wrote: Top Posting is an unfortunate side effect, of Microsoft Outlook becoming the standard for non Opensource computer software users. Well, Google with Gmail certainly aren't helping. I also thoroughly loathe answers in the form my response in green below, where the Outlook users have tried to answer each point in turn, but failed in the point that Outlook doesn't make this easy for the rest of us. Usually, top posting is a sign that the poster might as well not have quoted the original text at all, since the quoted text rarely aids in understanding. I agree, though, that complaining publicly on a mailing list regarding one part's choice of quoting or not usually is bad netiquette. -- Jan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: top-posting
On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 08:32:27AM +0100, karun wrote: Top Posting is an unfortunate side effect, of Microsoft Outlook becoming the standard for non Opensource computer software users. Actually, I'd say it was a side-effect of pine in the unix world and any graphical client everywhere else. I'm not really suprised. There are few editors around that make proper quoting easy. I can only think of vim, really. Anything else I've used, especially graphical editors, make it a pain. Then there are the quoting methods some email clients use, esp those that focus on html. Astoundingly annoying. And THEN we have knobs like those on hotmail. They wont even give you access to the quoted text. They just have it dangling at the end of your email like a poorly processed turd. Meh. -- A search of his car uncovered pornography, a homemade sex aid, women's stockings and a Jack Russell terrier. - http://www.news.com.au/story/0%2C27574%2C24675808-421%2C00.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: top-posting
karun wrote: Top Posting is an unfortunate side effect, of Microsoft Outlook becoming the standard for non Opensource computer software users. Outlook as an excuse for top-posting went out the window circa 2002. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ Also the base Outlook can be configured to make interleave responses possible. Not pretty, mind, but possible. Having been forced to use Lookout! at work for the past several years I do know that much. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: top-posting
On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 06:01:34PM -0700, Paul E Condon wrote: There is a big world out there beyond the confines of the Debian lists. There is a lot of top posting out there. It must be easy for twits to come to believe that top posting is always, and everywhere, OK. And that people who object are fair game for intimidation. and ridicule, but --- here on Debian lists is a special place. Here is a place for people who are above the common herd. And. no, this is not sarcasm. Top-posting works great in places where you have a common archive and thus don't have to carry the full context in your message. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: top-posting
On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:47AM -0500, Daryl Styrk wrote: I myself don't care for top posting. It just tosses a wrench in a nicely flowing thread. I have started playing around with mutt the last week or so, and I now appreciate how netiquette has come to be. Specifically to mailing lists. Top posting, HTML, 2-3 pages of quoted text to see Thanks that did it etc. To protect yourself from such evils: aptitude install t-prot -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: top-posting
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: Top-posting works great in places where you have a common archive and thus don't have to carry the full context in your message. Er, what? Top-posting requires you to carry the *full* context of the entire thread in every message! -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: top-posting
On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:24:05AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Outlook as an excuse for top-posting went out the window circa 2002. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ If I understand this well enough, quotefix won’t work if you are using Word as an editor for mails. This is done quite often, because Word provides on-the-fly spelling checks. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | PGP Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/pgp.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: top-posting
Stephan Seitz schreef: On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:24:05AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Outlook as an excuse for top-posting went out the window circa 2002. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ If I understand this well enough, quotefix won’t work if you are using Word as an editor for mails. This is done quite often, because Word provides on-the-fly spelling checks. Shade and sweet water! Stephan IIRC, Outlook uses the same backend/whatever they call that for editing as Word, i.e. you don't need to write e-mails with Word because Outlook provides those same functionalities. Not sure though, I haven't used Outlook in ages. User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) Or the same client on Linux. :) Sjors -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: top-posting
2009/3/7 Wendell Cochran atr...@eskimo.com: Date: Fri Mar 6 11:06:29 2009 From: Joe McDonagh To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Hey Steve, I love that just by typing up here above e-mails I can make smug users like you go postal. I feel powerful. Top-posting inconveniences almost everyone -- not only Steve Lamb. Do you know who it will inconvenience the most? Joe McDonagh. Because now that he gloats that he is a troll, when he needs help nobody will help him. This mailing list is a community effort, and those who don't want to be a part of the community, don't have to be. That's what killfiles are for. http://what-is-what.com/what_is/top_posting.html -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
