Re: Logs like .xsession-errors, was: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start ...
On 23/07/2024 19:20, Thomas Schmitt wrote: A bit off-topic question. In what wiki page you would expect to find suggestions to inspect ~/.xsession-errors file and journalctl output? I pasted ".xsession-errors" into the "Search:" field at the upper right corner of any Debian wiki page and clicked the "Text" button. https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=.xsession-errors&fullsearch=Text Sorry, I was not clear. I had in mind some moment before you learned that errors may appear in ~/.xsession-errors, so you could not use it as a keyword in search queries. It is not uncommon on this mailing list when users, asking for help, have no idea where error messages may be found. I am curious if they will have a chance to discover debugging recipes if they are documented. The only helpful match is https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=.xsession-errors&fullsearch=Text I assume it is https://wiki.debian.org/TroubleShooting and certainly it lacks details how to obtain error messages. Perhaps links to similar pages from other distributions may become an improvement.
Re: Logs like .xsession-errors, was: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start ...
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 14:20:43 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > The only helpful match is > > > https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=.xsession-errors&fullsearch=Text > > "What Does The Log Say? >... >If you're doing something with your window manager or other X client >programs, then their output probably won't be visible to you >immediately. The location of their output will depend on how you >started X. If you used startx(1) from a console, the output probably >appeared on that console (try Ctrl-Alt-F1 to get back to it, then >Alt-F7 (usually) to get back to X). If you logged in with xdm(8), then >xdm creates a file called .xsession-errors in your home directory, and >you should look there. gdm(8) uses .gnome-errors. The other "*dm" >programs may have similar files." There's some outdated info in that paragraph. In Debian, startx uses /etc/X11/Xsession (among many other files), which redirects all output to ~/.xsession-errors if it can. ~/.xsession-errors has been the standard place to look for WM and X client errors for so long that I can't even remember where I first learned about it. Also, it's unlikely you'll be able to "get back to" the underlying console from which you ran startx in a modern version of Debian. I want to say... since jessie? Whenever the big X server changes occurred. Ever since then, on most systems, the X server runs in the same TTY where startx was typed, instead of opening a new TTY. This is actually really good, security-wise, because it means someone can't walk up to your machine, press Ctrl-Alt-F1, and then use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-Z to kill or suspend your X session and get control of your shell. That used to be a possibility.
Logs like .xsession-errors, was: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start ...
Hi, Max Nikulin wrote: > A bit off-topic question. In what wiki page you would expect to find > suggestions to inspect ~/.xsession-errors file and journalctl output? I pasted ".xsession-errors" into the "Search:" field at the upper right corner of any Debian wiki page and clicked the "Text" button. https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=.xsession-errors&fullsearch=Text The only helpful match is https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=.xsession-errors&fullsearch=Text "What Does The Log Say? ... If you're doing something with your window manager or other X client programs, then their output probably won't be visible to you immediately. The location of their output will depend on how you started X. If you used startx(1) from a console, the output probably appeared on that console (try Ctrl-Alt-F1 to get back to it, then Alt-F7 (usually) to get back to X). If you logged in with xdm(8), then xdm creates a file called .xsession-errors in your home directory, and you should look there. gdm(8) uses .gnome-errors. The other "*dm" programs may have similar files." But i simply should have remembered that olde file or have looked for ~/.x* rather than only for ~/.X* as i did. The wiki page asks "Am I Alone?" Surely not. Time is a harsh mistress. > https://0pointer.de/blog/projects/journalctl.html I suffer substantial stack pain ... Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
Max Nikulin wrote: > On 23/07/2024 04:09, Thomas Schmitt wrote: >>$ cat ~/.xsession-errors > [...] >>[fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmConsole' in >> ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' > > A bit off-topic question. In what wiki page you would expect to find > suggestions to inspect ~/.xsession-errors file and journalctl output? is there a general problem solving and debugging page? > However I anyway do not have a link better that > https://0pointer.de/blog/projects/journalctl.html for journalctl > introduction. ... songbird
Re: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
On 23/07/2024 04:09, Thomas Schmitt wrote: $ cat ~/.xsession-errors [...] [fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmConsole' in ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' A bit off-topic question. In what wiki page you would expect to find suggestions to inspect ~/.xsession-errors file and journalctl output? However I anyway do not have a link better that https://0pointer.de/blog/projects/journalctl.html for journalctl introduction.
[Solved] Re: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
Hi, i wrote: > > Four of five fingers point to me and my ~/.fvwm2rc": > > ModulePath /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8 Greg Wooledge wrote: > Why do you even have that line at all? Cargo cult. Once it was needed, then i carried it on, and finally i forgot about it. The reason why i did not notice two years ago during the transition from Debian 10 to 11 is that both have fvwm 2.6.8. > What happens if you comment it out? Nothing bad. So i will leave it that way. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 23:09:59 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Four of five fingers point to me and my ~/.fvwm2rc": > > ModulePath /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8 > > I see traces that i adjusted this multiple times over the years: > /usr/lib/X11/fvwm2 , /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.5 , /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8. > > So what's its name this year ? > > $ find /usr -name FvwmPager > /usr/libexec/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmPager Why do you even have that line at all? hobbit:~/.fvwm$ grep ModulePath * hobbit:~/.fvwm$ What happens if you comment it out?
Re: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
Hi, (i begin to owe Greg Wooledge half a sysadmin salary and half one for a geriatric nurse) Greg Wooledge wrote: > Error messages, if there are any, should be in ~/.xsession-errors $ cat ~/.xsession-errors Cannot parse color "dtcolor5" couldn't create gradient Cannot parse color "dtcolor5" couldn't create gradient sh: 1: fvwm-menu-xlock: not found sh: 1: fvwm-menu-xlock: not found sh: 1: xdg_menu: not found [fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmConsole' in ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' [fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmBanner' in ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' [fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmButtons' in ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' [fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmCommandS' in ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' /usr/share/X11/fvwm2/pixmaps/slate.gif is a 128x128 GIF87a image with 256 colors Default gamma for IRGB image is 2.20 Compressing colormap...didn't find evidence of prior run. 6 unique colors Building XImage...done [fvwm][executeModule]: <> No such module 'FvwmConsole' in ModulePath '/usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8' $ Indeed, there is no directory /usr/lib/fvwm . In Debian 11 there was /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8 utterly filled with Fvwm* files. Four of five fingers point to me and my ~/.fvwm2rc": ModulePath /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8 I see traces that i adjusted this multiple times over the years: /usr/lib/X11/fvwm2 , /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.5 , /usr/lib/fvwm/2.6.8. So what's its name this year ? $ find /usr -name FvwmPager /usr/libexec/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmPager It's a bit late in the evening for system-wide experiments. I will see tomorrow whether i can omit the ModulePath line or whether i have to point it to /usr/libexec/fvwm2/2.7.0 . Further i should begin to learn what the following lines in my ~/.fvwm2rc mean: Colorset 3 fg black, bg rgb:c8/d3/e5, VGradient 100 dtcolor5 rgb:c8/d3/e5 ... Colorset 6 fg black, bg rgb:b4/aa/94, VGradient 100 dtcolor5 rgb:b4/aa/94 ... PipeRead 'fvwm-menu-xlock --special-first' PipeRead 'fvwm-menu-xlock --special-first --name=XSaverMenu -- -nolock' ... PipeRead 'xdg_menu --charset UTF-8 --format fvwm2' I guess that they fail since a dozen years at least. :)) As said, 20+ years of migration from machine to machine. Oh nostalgy. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 21:37:05 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > So how could i debug the start of fvwm Modules ? > Is there any log file or configuration option ? Error messages, if there are any, should be in ~/.xsession-errors for most users. I'd start there.
fvwm on Debian 12: Modules do not start. How to debug ?
Hi, after the striking success with my previous vim problem, i want to tackle another nuisance of the 11-to-12 upgrade. The window manager fvwm2 does not start the Modules and does not produce the Buttons which are prescribed by my ~/.fvwm2rc . I am direly missing FvwmPager for my 8x2 multi-desktop and FvwmButtons for my xterm-making button. I have to run a script for new xterms and to move a little xterm window to squeeze my way through the borders between the desktop screens. (There were key combinations to change desktops. But i forgot them.) So how could i debug the start of fvwm Modules ? Is there any log file or configuration option ? --- Configuration and observations: My init function is AddToFunc InitFunction + "I" Module FvwmBanner + "I" Exec xterm -ls -geometry +150+85 + "I" Module FvwmButtons + "I" Exec xli -onroot -fillscreen -border /usr/share/X11/fvwm2/pixmaps/slate.gif + "I" Module FvwmCommandS To my luck the "Exec xterm" works and gives me a starting point for more xterms and other programs. The pager is probably (*) started by *FvwmButtons (2x1 Frame 0 Swallow(UseOld) "FvwmPager" "Module FvwmPager 0 0") so one could suspect that only the module FvwmButtons is broken. But i have a menu with module start commands which do not work either: AddToMenu modules_popup "Modules" Title ... + "Buttons" Module FvwmButtons ... + "Command" Module FvwmCommand ... + "Console" Module FvwmConsole ... + "Pager" Module FvwmPager 0 0 ... (*) My .fvwm2rc is more than 20 years old and was inherited from SuSE. So i do not remember or did never learn many things which it does. I remember to have seen "Fvwm..." processes in the output of "ps". Currently i see only fvwm2 /usr/bin/ssh-agent fvwm2 (I don't know what ssh-agent has to do with fvwm2. But i have seen it in the "ps" listings in the past. "dbus" was involved, too. But that might have been a while ago.) Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 01:51:41PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: [...] > Originally it did only put out text in an xterm, but then i shamelessly > exploited code from the exploitation chain xpppload <- xisdnload <- xload > to give it a histogram in ain additional separate window. Now this one beats my weirdness by a stretch :-) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 07:50:54AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2023-10-22 at 07:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm > > which also shows my battery status. > > Ooo, that sounds interesting. I don't currently have a laptop, so the > battery-status part wouldn't currently apply, but this sounds like > something I might like to try when that changes; any chance of sharing > the specific details? Glad to oblige. The date part is the smallest, down there in the lower right corner :-) tomas@trotzki:~$ cat ~/bin/bat #!/bin/bash # Notes: # for colors: # tput setaf 1 ; tput bold ; echo -n 123 ; tput setaf 7 ; tput sgr0 ; echo 456 # cf tput(1) terminfo(5) # do continuous mode with watch -c, possibly t BAT='/sys/class/power_supply/BAT0' AC='/sys/class/power_supply/AC' FULL=$(cat $BAT/energy_full) NOW=$(cat $BAT/energy_now) case $(cat $AC/online) in 0) online="BAT" ;; 1) online="AC " ;; *) online="???" ;; esac echo -ne "$online " ; dc -e "5k $NOW $FULL / p" ; date +"%F%a%n %T" The fun part is convincing fvwm to do its thing: # Style for bat, clock: Style bat !Borders,!Handles,!Title # NOTES if text too big, nothing to be seen; # watch -t: no title; # the -geometry is there to place the window off screen while it's # not yet swallowed. # Can we change colors? Yeah: watch lets 'em through with option -c *FvwmButtons: (2x1, Frame 2, \ Swallow bat "Exec exec xterm -class bat -bg black -fg white \ -geometry +5000+5000 \ -fn 'xft:DejaVu Sans Mono Book:pixelsize=7' \ -e watch -tn 10 bat" ) Enjoy :) I've been mulling around whether to switch to Tcl/Tk: I like the unobtrusiveness of the thing, but some more noise when the battery is on its last legs would be desirable :-) > > But I'm weird. > > I literally used to go by "Weird" as a nickname, though (sadly?) it > never became as commonly used as with Al. Weird doesn't bother me at > all. A good feeling not to be alone around here ;-) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
On 2023-10-22 at 07:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm > which also shows my battery status. Ooo, that sounds interesting. I don't currently have a laptop, so the battery-status part wouldn't currently apply, but this sounds like something I might like to try when that changes; any chance of sharing the specific details? > But I'm weird. I literally used to go by "Weird" as a nickname, though (sadly?) it never became as commonly used as with Al. Weird doesn't bother me at all. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
Hi,
to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm which
> also shows my battery status.
My digital clock with date display is a C program which mainly watches the
network traffic. It even has an own date format ("A0" = 2000, now is "C3")
which has an odd history beginning in 1987, when nobody expected to live
to see year 2000.
http://scdbackup.webframe.org/pppoem
Originally it did only put out text in an xterm, but then i shamelessly
exploited code from the exploitation chain xpppload <- xisdnload <- xload
to give it a histogram in ain additional separate window.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:16:25AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > Charlie wrote: > > I removed the clock from the > > FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix > > of sorts with which I can live. > > Congrats. :)) > > > > being a bit long in > > the tooth to start relearning another window manager. > > I'm using fvwm since the last century. It's configured by a ~/.fvwm2rc > which is at least 20 years old with minor changes to adapt to changed > paths and to avoid some unwanted behavior from 10 years ago. I came back to it some time last century, after a very instructive travel which encompassed Gnome (Metacity), Xfce, Awesome and other exotica (olwm, GWM...) > My clock is FvwmXclock. It's an analog-style 12 hours without date > display. I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm which also shows my battery status. But I'm weird. > Have a nice day :) Likewise :) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
Hi, Charlie wrote: > I removed the clock from the > FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix > of sorts with which I can live. Congrats. :)) > being a bit long in > the tooth to start relearning another window manager. I'm using fvwm since the last century. It's configured by a ~/.fvwm2rc which is at least 20 years old with minor changes to adapt to changed paths and to avoid some unwanted behavior from 10 years ago. My clock is FvwmXclock. It's an analog-style 12 hours without date display. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:13:59 +0200 "Thomas Schmitt" wrote: > Hi, > > Charlie wrote: > > The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not > > terrible, > > However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used, > > noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user: > > /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript > > DateTime > > Looking at > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/main/default-config/FvwmScript-DateTime > and reading "man FvwmScript" i'd say that the promised 1-second > waiting period of "PeriodicTasks" is heavily shortened by the clock > peculiarity. > > > > Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set > > location etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen > > up and stopped. > > That's quite normal with periodic jobs when the system time gets > changed backward. Possibly the clock would come back to life after > the last shown time is reached again 23 hours later. > > > > Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy. > > Please detail "no joy": > Does hwclock show the future time after rebooting if you have set it > to the right time before rebooting ? > (Or is it only the system clock which hops ahead ?) > Does hwclock get changed to the future time without rebooting ? > > > > Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock > > from the FVWM taskbar, > > Does this solve the problem with the future time ? > > > > And haven't tried to > > but Gkrellm is now using the same time? > > (I don't understand this statement. Maybe it's important for finding > the explanation.) > > > > It would appear to be an fvwm problem > > The fast running CPU might be related to poor handling of weird times > by FvwmScript. > > But for now i doubt that fvwm sets the system date on its own. > > > Have a nice day :) > > Thomas > Thank you for the link Thomas. I removed the clock from the FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix of sorts with which I can live. I was going to install fluxbox, which I used many years ago before FVWM just to see what that clock said. Luckily didn't need to because the clock came up correct. Dreaded doing that anyway, being a bit long in the tooth to start relearning another window manager. So thank you for your help. Charlie
Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
Hi, Charlie wrote: > The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not > terrible, > However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used, > noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user: > /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript DateTime Looking at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/main/default-config/FvwmScript-DateTime and reading "man FvwmScript" i'd say that the promised 1-second waiting period of "PeriodicTasks" is heavily shortened by the clock peculiarity. > Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set location > etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen up and stopped. That's quite normal with periodic jobs when the system time gets changed backward. Possibly the clock would come back to life after the last shown time is reached again 23 hours later. > Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy. Please detail "no joy": Does hwclock show the future time after rebooting if you have set it to the right time before rebooting ? (Or is it only the system clock which hops ahead ?) Does hwclock get changed to the future time without rebooting ? > Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock from > the FVWM taskbar, Does this solve the problem with the future time ? > And haven't tried to > but Gkrellm is now using the same time? (I don't understand this statement. Maybe it's important for finding the explanation.) > It would appear to be an fvwm problem The fast running CPU might be related to poor handling of weird times by FvwmScript. But for now i doubt that fvwm sets the system date on its own. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....
Hello All, Have a a Dell Vostro laptop: Bookworm up to date and upgraded operating system to that state. Using FVWM window manager. The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not terrible, However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used, noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user: /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript DateTime Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set location etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen up and stopped. On reboot went back to a day ahead and an hour late even on Gkrellm. Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy. Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock from the FVWM taskbar, if that is what it is called. And haven't tried to but Gkrellm is now using the same time? It would appear to be an fvwm problem so I may be wise to move to another window manager. However thought I would ask here first, in case someone had the same problem or some clue to solve it. TIA Charlie [disclaimer] Any replies from me may be late because, can not afford to run my generator all day. [end disclaimer] -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** I scarcely remember counting upon any Happiness—I look not for it if it be not in the present hour—nothing startles me beyond the Moment. The setting sun will always set me to rights—or if a Sparrow come before my Window I take part in its existence and pick about the Gravel. JOHN KEATS *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic ___
Re: can't run fvwm
On Sun, 23 Jan 2022, Pierre Frenkiel wrote: PS: fvwm suggests using "-replace", but it is useless, as it just gives you a new login window I tried again, and now -replace works.
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:00:03 -0500 Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 09:46:15AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > I think this is called "shading" [...] > > > > Glad it helped. Actually, I was unsure myself, because, although > > I do use fvwm, I somehow managed to make shading inaccessible to > > me (I don't use it). Not having the time to research properly, I > > still decided to take the risk. > > It has to be enabled in your configuration. The default config for > the current version of fvwm has it, but if you're using a config > that you created for an older version (like I am), you may not even > know it's a possibility. > Thanks Greg, When I right click on the title bar it does say "shade". But as with many other things, I must have clicked on it by accident at times and not knowing what was done or what it was called. Didn't know how to undo it. Now am a little wiser thanks to Tomas for giving the result a name. I too use an old, carry over to various laptops of: /.fvwm/fvwm2rc or config. The latter, based on the former now. Thanks for the reply. -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. ---Oscar Wilde *** Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed. -
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 08:00:03AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: [...] > It has to be enabled in your configuration. The default config for > the current version of fvwm has it, but if you're using a config > that you created for an older version (like I am), you may not even know > it's a possibility. It's rather that I massacred my config out of bits&pieces (don't ask) In the process I must have fat-fingered something. Since I didn't miss that, I didn't fix it ;-) Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 09:46:15AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > I think this is called "shading" [...] > > Glad it helped. Actually, I was unsure myself, because, although > I do use fvwm, I somehow managed to make shading inaccessible to > me (I don't use it). Not having the time to research properly, I > still decided to take the risk. It has to be enabled in your configuration. The default config for the current version of fvwm has it, but if you're using a config that you created for an older version (like I am), you may not even know it's a possibility.
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 09:46:15 +0100 wrote: > On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 10:18:44AM +1100, Charlie wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 23:34:42 +0100 > > wrote: > > [...] > > > I think this is called "shading" [...] > > > Thank you Tomas, with that information I found it [...] > > Glad it helped. Actually, I was unsure myself, because, although > I do use fvwm, I somehow managed to make shading inaccessible to > me (I don't use it). Not having the time to research properly, I > still decided to take the risk. > > In this case, it seems, the aphorism often attributed to the great > Grace Hopper [1] "When in doubt, do it. It's easier to ask forgiveness > than permission" was the right fit ;-D > > Cheers > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper > > - t Very true. [laughing] Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** If you are free, you need to free somebody else. If you have some power, then your job is to empower somebody else. ---Toni Morrison *** Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed. -
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:01 -0600 David Wright wrote: > On Fri 05 Feb 2021 at 09:23:43 (+1100), Charlie wrote: > > Using FVWM on Debian Bullseye. > > > > Sometimes [too often] I click on something and reduce a terminal > > window to just the title bar alone. > > > > Infuriating, because it catches me unawares and I don't realise > > what I did. Googling every time it is done trying to find a way > > back has failed. I obviously don't know the terminology of this > > action to pinpoint anything about it in a search engine. > > > > If someone can please tell me the term I am looking for, or as > > link, or give me the solutions as to: > > > > what I do to make this happen, and > > > > how do I reverse it > > Shading is normally an unbound option near the bottom of the WindowOPs > menu and it toggles. Like you, I only invoke it accidentally. > I get the WindowOPs menu with mouse button 2 in the root window. > If you want to bind it, the command is called WindowShade. > > Cheers, > David. > Thank you David. -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** Magic is believing in yourself, if you can do that, you can make anything happen. ---Johann Wolfgang von Goethe *** Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed. -
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 10:18:44AM +1100, Charlie wrote: > On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 23:34:42 +0100 > wrote: [...] > > I think this is called "shading" [...] > Thank you Tomas, with that information I found it [...] Glad it helped. Actually, I was unsure myself, because, although I do use fvwm, I somehow managed to make shading inaccessible to me (I don't use it). Not having the time to research properly, I still decided to take the risk. In this case, it seems, the aphorism often attributed to the great Grace Hopper [1] "When in doubt, do it. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" was the right fit ;-D Cheers [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri 05 Feb 2021 at 09:23:43 (+1100), Charlie wrote: > Using FVWM on Debian Bullseye. > > Sometimes [too often] I click on something and reduce a terminal window > to just the title bar alone. > > Infuriating, because it catches me unawares and I don't realise what I > did. Googling every time it is done trying to find a way back has > failed. I obviously don't know the terminology of this action to > pinpoint anything about it in a search engine. > > If someone can please tell me the term I am looking for, or as link, or > give me the solutions as to: > > what I do to make this happen, and > > how do I reverse it Shading is normally an unbound option near the bottom of the WindowOPs menu and it toggles. Like you, I only invoke it accidentally. I get the WindowOPs menu with mouse button 2 in the root window. If you want to bind it, the command is called WindowShade. Cheers, David.
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 23:34:42 +0100 wrote: > On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 09:23:43AM +1100, Charlie wrote: > > > > From my keyboard: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > Using FVWM on Debian Bullseye. > > > > Sometimes [too often] I click on something and reduce a terminal > > window to just the title bar alone. > > I think this is called "shading" the window [1] > > Cheers > > [1] http://www.fvwm.org/fvwm-ml/att-2699/fvwm2.reference.html > -- t Thank you Tomas, with that information I found it. I have been looking for this every time it happened for years and had to finally leave the search because something else became more pressing. Your help is very much appreciated. Thank you, Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** Although the world is full of suffering, it is also full of the overcoming of it. ---Helen Keller *** Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed. -
Re: FVWM title bar information......
On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 09:23:43AM +1100, Charlie wrote: > > From my keyboard: > > Hello Everyone, > > Using FVWM on Debian Bullseye. > > Sometimes [too often] I click on something and reduce a terminal window > to just the title bar alone. I think this is called "shading" the window [1] Cheers [1] http://www.fvwm.org/fvwm-ml/att-2699/fvwm2.reference.html -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
FVWM title bar information......
From my keyboard: Hello Everyone, Using FVWM on Debian Bullseye. Sometimes [too often] I click on something and reduce a terminal window to just the title bar alone. Infuriating, because it catches me unawares and I don't realise what I did. Googling every time it is done trying to find a way back has failed. I obviously don't know the terminology of this action to pinpoint anything about it in a search engine. If someone can please tell me the term I am looking for, or as link, or give me the solutions as to: what I do to make this happen, and how do I reverse it Thank you. Charlie East Gippsland Wildlife Rehabilitators Inc.. http://www.egwildlife.com.au/ -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** Don’t explain your philosophy. Embody it. Epictetus *** Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed. -
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
Reco (12020-12-21): > You're right. Xorg is a server, any window manager on top of it is > merely an X client (a special one, but an interchangeable client). > Wayland is not a server, it's a set of protocols. An implementation of > these protocols inherently provides a set of functions that are provided > by window manager on top of X, X itself, panel, copy-paste to name a > few. > Running a window manager in Xwayland is theoretically possible, but > practically it'll be worthless. Being a server has nothing to do with allowing window managers or not, it is just a kind of RPC; X11 is a protocol, but it is designed like an API. The X11 Window system itself is very bare: windows are just plain rectangles. The window manager is just an application like many others that takes upon itself to add decorations on windows and move them around. Nothing would prevent the same UI design with a non-client-server API design. But obviously Wayland chose otherwise. (Which is not surprising, since Wayland comes from Freedesktop, and Freedesktop are awed by Apple's policy of restricting user choice for the good of the user.) Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
El mar., 22 dic. 2020 14:07, Greg Wooledge escribió: > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 08:12:28PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote: > > Last I read wayland had serious accessibility problems. How does fvwm > > work with screen readers and similar accessibility items and is fvwm > > going the way of xWindows? > > I have no experience with screen readers, and very little knowledge > of the subject overall. I wouldn't *expect* fvwm to work particularly > well with screen readers, nor to be actively developed at this stage > in its life cycle. It's been around for decades. > > I just checked fvwm.org and apparently there is a version 3.x of fvwm > in development, but I didn't go beyond the front page, so I don't > know how active or how recent that development is, nor what features > they're looking to add. > Seem like It is active https://github.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/commits/master Regards > >
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 08:12:28PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote: > Last I read wayland had serious accessibility problems. How does fvwm > work with screen readers and similar accessibility items and is fvwm > going the way of xWindows? I have no experience with screen readers, and very little knowledge of the subject overall. I wouldn't *expect* fvwm to work particularly well with screen readers, nor to be actively developed at this stage in its life cycle. It's been around for decades. I just checked fvwm.org and apparently there is a version 3.x of fvwm in development, but I didn't go beyond the front page, so I don't know how active or how recent that development is, nor what features they're looking to add.
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
Last I read wayland had serious accessibility problems. How does fvwm work with screen readers and similar accessibility items and is fvwm going the way of xWindows? On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Greg Wooledge wrote: > Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 12:33:39 > From: Greg Wooledge > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > Subject: Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland > Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 17:33:57 + (UTC) > Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:12:05PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > Makes you wonder how long it [X.org] will be around; I guess a fair while > > > though. > > > > I can't see why it'd need to be around for very long, given that it can > > be replaced by Wayland + Xwayland. So Xorg is only useful to the extent > > that it supports hardware that Wayland doesn't. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that you *can't* > use an X window manager with Wayland. You're stuck using one of the > window managers or desktop environments that has been ported to Wayland. > > If that's not true, then that changes a *lot*. > > --
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
Hi. On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:33:39PM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:12:05PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > Makes you wonder how long it [X.org] will be around; I guess a fair while > > > though. > > > > I can't see why it'd need to be around for very long, given that it can > > be replaced by Wayland + Xwayland. So Xorg is only useful to the extent > > that it supports hardware that Wayland doesn't. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that you *can't* > use an X window manager with Wayland. You're right. Xorg is a server, any window manager on top of it is merely an X client (a special one, but an interchangeable client). Wayland is not a server, it's a set of protocols. An implementation of these protocols inherently provides a set of functions that are provided by window manager on top of X, X itself, panel, copy-paste to name a few. Running a window manager in Xwayland is theoretically possible, but practically it'll be worthless. > You're stuck using one of the window managers or desktop environments > that has been ported to Wayland. More precise, "that implement Wayland protocol". And considering a current state of testing, one can choose GNOME, KDE, weston or sway. That's it, unless one builds something else from the source. That means no openbox, twm, icewm, or your favorite panel (because it's a special extension of a Wayland protocol) if you're planning on using Wayland. > If that's not true, then that changes a *lot*. I wish it too, but it's deliberately not possible. Reco
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:12:05PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > Makes you wonder how long it [X.org] will be around; I guess a fair while > > though. > > I can't see why it'd need to be around for very long, given that it can > be replaced by Wayland + Xwayland. So Xorg is only useful to the extent > that it supports hardware that Wayland doesn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that you *can't* use an X window manager with Wayland. You're stuck using one of the window managers or desktop environments that has been ported to Wayland. If that's not true, then that changes a *lot*.
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
Stefan Monnier (12020-12-21): > I can't see why it'd need to be around for very long, given that it can > be replaced by Wayland + Xwayland. So Xorg is only useful to the extent > that it supports hardware that Wayland doesn't. Quoting https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/ch05.html#sect-X11-Application-Support-xwm : # From the X11 point of view, the X window manager (XWM) living inside a # Wayland compositor is just like any other window manager. So no, Xwayland cannot replace X.org: it cannot run window managers, since only one window manager can run, and there's already one hard-coded. For the purpose of this very thread, this is completely unacceptable. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
> Makes you wonder how long it will be around; I guess a fair while > though. > [1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/ I can't see why it'd need to be around for very long, given that it can be replaced by Wayland + Xwayland. So Xorg is only useful to the extent that it supports hardware that Wayland doesn't. Stefan
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
Sorry, quoting got messed up on my last email, fixed version below (I hope)... On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 08:15 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 06:32:20PM +0100, Kamil Jońca wrote: [...] > > As an user of FVWM (desktop box) and xfce (laptop) I feel little > > lost. > > In particular it is not clear to me if it will be possible to use > > FVWM / > > xfce on top (X)Wayland? > > Will be possible to use emacsclient with ssh X tunneling? > > See <https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland#Supported_environments> > and <https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland#FAQ>. > > I don't know how up to date that wiki page is, so if there are any > Wayland experts out there, we'd love to hear from you. > > As an fvwm user myself, I have absolutely no plans to move to Wayland > at this time. I read recently that xorg has been has been abandoned [1] "to the extent that that means using it to actually control the display, and not just keep X apps running." Makes you wonder how long it will be around; I guess a fair while though. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/ -- Tixy
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 08:15 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 06:32:20PM +0100, Kamil Jońca wrote: [...] > As an user of FVWM (desktop box) and xfce (laptop) I feel little > lost. > In particular it is not clear to me if it will be possible to use > FVWM / > xfce on top (X)Wayland? > Will be possible to use emacsclient with ssh X tunneling? See <https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland#Supported_environments> and <https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland#FAQ>. I don't know how up to date that wiki page is, so if there are any Wayland experts out there, we'd love to hear from you. As an fvwm user myself, I have absolutely no plans to move to Wayland at this time. I read recently that xorg has been has been abandoned [1] "to the extent that that means using it to actually control the display, and not just keep X apps running." Makes you wonder how long it will be around; I guess a fair while though. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/ -- Tixy
Re: Future of X, fvwm and wayland
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 06:32:20PM +0100, Kamil Jońca wrote: > It seems, that main graphical UI base will be Wayland instead of X > Window. > If I understand correctly Wayland has no separate window manager > process. I think this is incorrect. There's still a window manager. You just don't get many to choose from. > As an user of FVWM (desktop box) and xfce (laptop) I feel little lost. > In particular it is not clear to me if it will be possible to use FVWM / > xfce on top (X)Wayland? > Will be possible to use emacsclient with ssh X tunneling? See <https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland#Supported_environments> and <https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland#FAQ>. I don't know how up to date that wiki page is, so if there are any Wayland experts out there, we'd love to hear from you. As an fvwm user myself, I have absolutely no plans to move to Wayland at this time.
Future of X, fvwm and wayland
It seems, that main graphical UI base will be Wayland instead of X Window. If I understand correctly Wayland has no separate window manager process. As an user of FVWM (desktop box) and xfce (laptop) I feel little lost. In particular it is not clear to me if it will be possible to use FVWM / xfce on top (X)Wayland? Will be possible to use emacsclient with ssh X tunneling? KJ -- http://wolnelektury.pl/wesprzyj/teraz/
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Mon 24 Sep 2018 at 14:26:48 (+0200), Nicolas George wrote: > David Wright (2018-09-22): > > (Actually .xsession here.) That may well be, and it does work to get > > the xterms placed on the correct positions, but it also has downsides > > which I can avoid while xtoolwait continues to work (even with its > > bug). > > > > 1) The xterms' arguments, and (for some of them) the commands they run, > >are computed in the shell script that is ~/.xsession. While some of > >these might be simple to perform in fvwm-ese, not all of them are, > >and I'm not particularly well versed in fvwm-ese. I'm reasonably > >competent in bash dialect shell-ese however. > > You can call a shell script from Fvwm, of course. With a little > creativity, you can even call .xsession or .xinitrc itself and arrange > to have the same init code for environment and stuff but execute pre-WM > commands when it is truly the init script and post-WM commands > otherwise. That sort of back and forth gets quite complicated quite quickly. Starting a WM and then starting a bunch of xterms is a procedure that shellese is suited for. Setting up 20+ pieces of code to be called from the WM for each xterm (so that WM's Waits can be placed between the calls) is crazy. Writing a shell script, but in fvwmese, is horrible. And writing a WM init.hook file in advance of starting the WM is just an extra body of code to maintain. > > 2) I get a log of all the .xsession operations in .xsession-errors, > >whereas the logging done by fvwm is almost all generated by the > >Echo commands I inserted. > > If you get Echo commands in .xsession-errors, that means Fvwm's output > is connected to it, and then all commands started by Fvwm will too. Not here (the first line is the init function call which creates 23 xterms): [fvwm][Echo]: Reading /home/david/.fvwm/init.hook Last edited 2018-09-22 [fvwm][FlocaleGetFontSet]: (-adobe-helvetica-bold-r-*-*-12-*) Missing font charsets: ISO8859-2, ISO8859-3, ISO8859-4, ISO8859-5, KOI8-R, ISO8859-7, ISO8859-9, ISO8859-13, ISO8859-14, ISO8859-15, JISX0208.1983-0, KSC5601.1987-0, GB2312.1980-0, JISX0201.1976-0 [fvwm][Echo]: Reading /home/david/.fvwm/post.hook Last edited 2017-04-14 [fvwm][Echo]: Reading /home/david/.fvwm/last-post.hook-wren-0 Last edited 2018-09-22 [fvwm][Echo]: none done [fvwm][Echo]: Initialised myvar to 0 [MyButtons][FlocaleGetFontSet]: (fixed) Missing font charsets: ISO8859-2, ISO8859-3, ISO8859-4, ISO8859-5, KOI8-R, ISO8859-7, ISO8859-9, ISO8859-13, ISO8859-14, ISO8859-15, JISX0208.1983-0, KSC5601.1987-0, GB2312.1980-0, JISX0201.1976-0, ISO10646-1 [FvwmPager][FlocaleGetFontSet]: (-*-times-medium-r-*-*-*-80-*-*-*-*-*-*) Missing font charsets: ISO8859-3, ISO8859-4, ISO8859-5, KOI8-R, ISO8859-7, ISO8859-9, ISO8859-13, ISO8859-14, JISX0208.1983-0, KSC5601.1987-0, GB2312.1980-0, JISX0201.1976-0 [fvwm][Echo]: Started MyBit Does fvwm have an equivalent of bash's set -x ? If it were to, would .fvwm's stderr get overwhelmed by output from every window operation and mouse-click? > > 3) There's still a race between the xterms when started from InitFunction. > >Although their placements are correct, they are mapped at their > >locations in a random order instead of deterministically. This > >randomises the PIDs and PTSs of their shells, which is less > >convenient for seeing who's running what at a glance. > > You may need to enforce the order with your favorite tool, but starting > from Fvwm's InitFunction will reduce concurrency and therefore make > things slightly more efficient. And I believe Fvwm is capable of doing > the wait itself, which would be even more efficient. It can indeed. Inserting a Wait after each xterm does the job and tests on my slowest machine (to make timing things easier) shows that it saves 1–2 seconds in 38; just not worth the trouble. > Also, relying on the numbers of PIDs and PTYs is really not reliable, > irregardless of how you start your xterms. No reliance, just convenience. > (Also, I had to wonder for a few seconds about why your xterms have > Presentation Time Stamps, but that is just because I have spent a > significant part of the week-end surrounded by multimedia jargon.) Yes, for some reason ps ax (or -ef) calls them pts rather than pty. Cheers, David.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
David Wright (2018-09-22): > (Actually .xsession here.) That may well be, and it does work to get > the xterms placed on the correct positions, but it also has downsides > which I can avoid while xtoolwait continues to work (even with its > bug). > > 1) The xterms' arguments, and (for some of them) the commands they run, >are computed in the shell script that is ~/.xsession. While some of >these might be simple to perform in fvwm-ese, not all of them are, >and I'm not particularly well versed in fvwm-ese. I'm reasonably >competent in bash dialect shell-ese however. You can call a shell script from Fvwm, of course. With a little creativity, you can even call .xsession or .xinitrc itself and arrange to have the same init code for environment and stuff but execute pre-WM commands when it is truly the init script and post-WM commands otherwise. > 2) I get a log of all the .xsession operations in .xsession-errors, >whereas the logging done by fvwm is almost all generated by the >Echo commands I inserted. If you get Echo commands in .xsession-errors, that means Fvwm's output is connected to it, and then all commands started by Fvwm will too. > 3) There's still a race between the xterms when started from InitFunction. >Although their placements are correct, they are mapped at their >locations in a random order instead of deterministically. This >randomises the PIDs and PTSs of their shells, which is less >convenient for seeing who's running what at a glance. You may need to enforce the order with your favorite tool, but starting from Fvwm's InitFunction will reduce concurrency and therefore make things slightly more efficient. And I believe Fvwm is capable of doing the wait itself, which would be even more efficient. Also, relying on the numbers of PIDs and PTYs is really not reliable, irregardless of how you start your xterms. (Also, I had to wonder for a few seconds about why your xterms have Presentation Time Stamps, but that is just because I have spent a significant part of the week-end surrounded by multimedia jargon.) Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: where does fvwm get its xterm icon? [SOLVED]
On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote:
> I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. ...
> In Debian 7, calling null.xpm gives me no xpm icon, just a title bar labeled
> "syrano". I prefer this because it's very small.
I now have this all working as I wanted. First I made a 0-pixel null.xpm:
/* XPM */
static char * null_xpm[] = {
"68 0 1 2",
"O c None"};
(The white space after `O' is space-tab.) This declares the image to have 0
rows. It didn't work unless I defined at least one color. I thought the
width (68 pixels) would be irrelevant but found it determines the width of
the label under the (null) xterm icon. An alternative is to define a real
pixel array all with color "None". This gives a transparent icon, but it has
a real size that influences its positioning.
In ~/.fvwm/config, I have:
Style "XTerm" IconOverride
Style "XTerm" Icon /usr/share/pixmaps/null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox
200x200-1+0
Surprisingly, I had to give the full pathname for null.xpm even if I put it
in /usr/share/pixmaps.
Finally was a timing issue. My ~/.xinitrc now has this:
xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano &
sleep 1
xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title numbat -e ssh numbat &
sleep 1
/usr/bin/firefox -width 1300 -height 1100 &
Without the sleeps, the behavior was erratic. Often one or both xterm icons
would default to an XT symbol that matches
/usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm or to an active little screenshot.
Calling the xterms from ~/.fvwm/config did not solve that problem.
All of this worked without calling IconOverride, but if I called a new xterm
from the shell and reduced it, I got a default icon unless I had called
IconOverride.
Anyway, I have what I wanted now and again thank all of you for your many
helpful suggestions.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Sat 22 Sep 2018 at 14:37:14 (+), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > On September 21, 2018 11:35 PM, David Wright wrote: > > >> That sounds like a different problem: a race between fvwm and the > >> xterms over which order they start in. The manner in which the race > >> affects me is that my (open) xterms get mapped all over the place > >> instead of where I want them placed. The fix is simple except that > >> the package required never made it past squeeze, so you'd need to > >> visit the archives, specifically: > > On Saturday, September 22, 2018 1:55 AM, Nicolas George responded: > > > The real fix is even simpler: start your X11 clients from Fvwm's > > InitFunction, not from .xinitrc. > > Good idea. But I (original poster) just tried it, and once again the icon > for the xterm appeared as a live screenshot instead of smplayer.xpm, which I > had defined (for testing purposes) in ~/.fvwm/config. Including "Test > (Init)" in the InitFunction didn't help. Thanks. Well, it's difficult to know what else to suggest as there's not enough information to be able to reproduce what you are observing, and everything I've observed at this end has tallied with the documentation, including -iconic which I included in my later tests. IOW the configuration commands consistently set the appropriate icon, and it would appear correctly iconified at startup if -iconic was set, and would (un)iconfy itself correctly after that. I think you just have to check your files carefully, and forget about startup until you have the correct icon interactively (un)iconifying each way. BTW in case I didn't mention it: although fvwm/display.xpm appears to be corrupt, fvwm is not bothered and will happily use it. identify-im6.q16: unrecognized color `magenta4' @ warning/color.c/GetColorCompliance/1052. identify-im6.q16: corrupt image `/usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/display.xpm' @ error/xpm.c/ReadXPMImage/431. Cheers, David.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Sat 22 Sep 2018 at 07:55:12 (+0200), Nicolas George wrote: > David Wright (2018-09-21): > > That sounds like a different problem: a race between fvwm and the > > xterms over which order they start in. The manner in which the race > > affects me is that my (open) xterms get mapped all over the place > > instead of where I want them placed. The fix is simple except that > > the package required never made it past squeeze, so you'd need to > > visit the archives, specifically: > > The real fix is even simpler: start your X11 clients from Fvwm's > InitFunction, not from .xinitrc. (Actually .xsession here.) That may well be, and it does work to get the xterms placed on the correct positions, but it also has downsides which I can avoid while xtoolwait continues to work (even with its bug). 1) The xterms' arguments, and (for some of them) the commands they run, are computed in the shell script that is ~/.xsession. While some of these might be simple to perform in fvwm-ese, not all of them are, and I'm not particularly well versed in fvwm-ese. I'm reasonably competent in bash dialect shell-ese however. 2) I get a log of all the .xsession operations in .xsession-errors, whereas the logging done by fvwm is almost all generated by the Echo commands I inserted. 3) There's still a race between the xterms when started from InitFunction. Although their placements are correct, they are mapped at their locations in a random order instead of deterministically. This randomises the PIDs and PTSs of their shells, which is less convenient for seeing who's running what at a glance. Cheers, David.
RE: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On September 21, 2018 11:35 PM, David Wright wrote: >> That sounds like a different problem: a race between fvwm and the >> xterms over which order they start in. The manner in which the race >> affects me is that my (open) xterms get mapped all over the place >> instead of where I want them placed. The fix is simple except that >> the package required never made it past squeeze, so you'd need to >> visit the archives, specifically: On Saturday, September 22, 2018 1:55 AM, Nicolas George responded: > The real fix is even simpler: start your X11 clients from Fvwm's > InitFunction, not from .xinitrc. Good idea. But I (original poster) just tried it, and once again the icon for the xterm appeared as a live screenshot instead of smplayer.xpm, which I had defined (for testing purposes) in ~/.fvwm/config. Including "Test (Init)" in the InitFunction didn't help. Thanks.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
David Wright (2018-09-21): > That sounds like a different problem: a race between fvwm and the > xterms over which order they start in. The manner in which the race > affects me is that my (open) xterms get mapped all over the place > instead of where I want them placed. The fix is simple except that > the package required never made it past squeeze, so you'd need to > visit the archives, specifically: The real fix is even simpler: start your X11 clients from Fvwm's InitFunction, not from .xinitrc. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Thu 20 Sep 2018 at 01:39:07 (+), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote: > > >> I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. > > On Wednesday, September 19, 2018 2:27 PM, David Wright replied: > > > ... If you look at the man page, it explains the > > old option -n and says "If no suitable icon is found, xterm provides a > > compiled-in pixmap" which would correspond to your reported behaviour > > as it can't find /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm. > > Thanks. That could to explain how it comes up with the mini.xterm_48x48.xpm > image in /usr/share/pixmaps even when I overwrite it with something else. > > As a test, I put this line into ~/.fvwm/config: > Style xterm Icon /usr/share/pixmaps/gimp.xpm > > I also had these in ~/.xinitrc: > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title numbat -e ssh numbat & > > Then I went through many cycles of exiting fvwm and calling startx. The > icons for the two xterms varied a lot from one trial to the next but were > always either the mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image, a live screenshot, or the > intended gimp.xpm. At some point I noticed that whichever xterm icon came up > first usually got gimp.xpm, while the second xterm got one of the other two > images. This seemed to be time-dependent, in other words. When I added > "sleep 1" between the two xterm calls in .xinitrc, I consistently got > gimp.xpm for both icons, as well as for any xterms I called from the command > line and iconized. > > For reasons I can't guess, this did not work with another standard xpm > (inkspace.xpm). It did work with smplayer.xpm. It did not work with my > 0-byte null.xpm or a 1-pixel red xpm that I created. The icons display in > reproducible positions on the desktop, but they are not the same positions I > saw before switching to gimp.xpm. I have a little more work to do. That sounds like a different problem: a race between fvwm and the xterms over which order they start in. The manner in which the race affects me is that my (open) xterms get mapped all over the place instead of where I want them placed. The fix is simple except that the package required never made it past squeeze, so you'd need to visit the archives, specifically: http://archive.debian.org/debian/pool/main/x/xtoolwait/ and the program can stall occasionally, as described in https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/12/msg00029.html where a fix for that bug is also given. So far, I haven't had to rebuild the package even though it is so old. Cheers, David. > ____ > From: David Wright [deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 2:27 PM > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > Subject: Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon? > > As you seem to be having trouble, here's a fuller answer than the one > I posted before. > > On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05:35 (+), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > > I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. The > > issue started when I upgraded from Debian v7 (fvwm 1:2.5.30) to Debian v9 > > (fvwm 1:2.6.7-3). In both cases fvwm-icons was also installed. > > >From /usr/share/pixmaps/. > > > I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > > Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > > > > where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > > zero-byte file I created. > > Then you need to have > > Style xterm Icon fvwm/null.xpm > > or it won't be found in that subdirectory. > > That said, I would put the Icon in a directory like > /usr/local/share/fvwm/ or /home/david/.fvwm/null.xpm rather than > polluting the package's own files. > > Again, that said, a zero-length file doesn't work for me on stretch. > I haven't tried jessie or wheezy. > > > When startx is called, it gets this from ~/.xinitrc: > > I use .xsession … > > > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & > > … and I don't use -iconic so that's untested here. > > > No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches > > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red > > `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still > > get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Furthermore, > > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm still shows an access time from > > weeks > > ago. It seems that fvwm has that image cached or bui
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 07:18:40AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 08:44:10PM +, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > In fact I obsessively viewed all 386 xpm files on the whole system. None
> > other than /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm matched the icon
> > displayed.
>
> Not really on-topic, but perhaps helpful: next time you do a
>
> find ... -type f -name "*.xpm" -exec md5sum {} + | sort
>
> or something (replace md5sum with sha5sum if you fear your machine
> will be hacked [1] ;^P
>
> Identical files will be sorted next to each other.
>
> Cheers
>
> [1] This is to pre-empt discussions about whether md5sum is "less
> secure" than say, sha512sum :-)
No, sha5sum is definitely waaay too primitive - butterfly wings and
cosmic radiation eddies are a must for those ackshually, you know,
like, want axshul security. Like.
RE: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote: >> I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. On Wednesday, September 19, 2018 2:27 PM, David Wright replied: > ... If you look at the man page, it explains the > old option -n and says "If no suitable icon is found, xterm provides a > compiled-in pixmap" which would correspond to your reported behaviour > as it can't find /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm. Thanks. That could to explain how it comes up with the mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image in /usr/share/pixmaps even when I overwrite it with something else. As a test, I put this line into ~/.fvwm/config: Style xterm Icon /usr/share/pixmaps/gimp.xpm I also had these in ~/.xinitrc: xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title numbat -e ssh numbat & Then I went through many cycles of exiting fvwm and calling startx. The icons for the two xterms varied a lot from one trial to the next but were always either the mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image, a live screenshot, or the intended gimp.xpm. At some point I noticed that whichever xterm icon came up first usually got gimp.xpm, while the second xterm got one of the other two images. This seemed to be time-dependent, in other words. When I added "sleep 1" between the two xterm calls in .xinitrc, I consistently got gimp.xpm for both icons, as well as for any xterms I called from the command line and iconized. For reasons I can't guess, this did not work with another standard xpm (inkspace.xpm). It did work with smplayer.xpm. It did not work with my 0-byte null.xpm or a 1-pixel red xpm that I created. The icons display in reproducible positions on the desktop, but they are not the same positions I saw before switching to gimp.xpm. I have a little more work to do. Thanks again. From: David Wright [deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 2:27 PM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon? As you seem to be having trouble, here's a fuller answer than the one I posted before. On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05:35 (+0000), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. The > issue started when I upgraded from Debian v7 (fvwm 1:2.5.30) to Debian v9 > (fvwm 1:2.6.7-3). In both cases fvwm-icons was also installed. >From /usr/share/pixmaps/. > I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > > where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > zero-byte file I created. Then you need to have Style xterm Icon fvwm/null.xpm or it won't be found in that subdirectory. That said, I would put the Icon in a directory like /usr/local/share/fvwm/ or /home/david/.fvwm/null.xpm rather than polluting the package's own files. Again, that said, a zero-length file doesn't work for me on stretch. I haven't tried jessie or wheezy. > When startx is called, it gets this from ~/.xinitrc: I use .xsession … > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & … and I don't use -iconic so that's untested here. > No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red > `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still > get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Furthermore, > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm still shows an access time from weeks > ago. It seems that fvwm has that image cached or built in somehow. That does seem likely. If you look at the man page, it explains the old option -n and says "If no suitable icon is found, xterm provides a compiled-in pixmap" which would correspond to your reported behaviour as it can't find /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm. > Once > fvwm is up, if I call "xterm &" and convert that to an icon, it appears as a > live window screenshot, not as mini.xterm_48x48.xpm. That's because at this point I assume you hadn't added Style xterm IconOverride to prevent it. As I wrote before, iconification is quite complex, even before you add in fvwm's options. > In Debian 7, calling null.xpm gives me no xpm icon, just a title bar labeled > "syrano". I prefer this because it's very small. If you just want a small icon, why not just shrink it; say: $ convert /usr/share/pixmaps/…whatever….xpm -resize 48x24 .fvwm/small.xpm Even a 1x1 icon makes a (not very useful) mark on the screen (until you hover over it). Cheers, David.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
As you seem to be having trouble, here's a fuller answer than the one I posted before. On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05:35 (+), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. The > issue started when I upgraded from Debian v7 (fvwm 1:2.5.30) to Debian v9 > (fvwm 1:2.6.7-3). In both cases fvwm-icons was also installed. >From /usr/share/pixmaps/. > I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > > where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > zero-byte file I created. Then you need to have Style xterm Icon fvwm/null.xpm or it won't be found in that subdirectory. That said, I would put the Icon in a directory like /usr/local/share/fvwm/ or /home/david/.fvwm/null.xpm rather than polluting the package's own files. Again, that said, a zero-length file doesn't work for me on stretch. I haven't tried jessie or wheezy. > When startx is called, it gets this from ~/.xinitrc: I use .xsession … > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & … and I don't use -iconic so that's untested here. > No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red > `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still > get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Furthermore, > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm still shows an access time from weeks > ago. It seems that fvwm has that image cached or built in somehow. That does seem likely. If you look at the man page, it explains the old option -n and says "If no suitable icon is found, xterm provides a compiled-in pixmap" which would correspond to your reported behaviour as it can't find /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm. > Once > fvwm is up, if I call "xterm &" and convert that to an icon, it appears as a > live window screenshot, not as mini.xterm_48x48.xpm. That's because at this point I assume you hadn't added Style xterm IconOverride to prevent it. As I wrote before, iconification is quite complex, even before you add in fvwm's options. > In Debian 7, calling null.xpm gives me no xpm icon, just a title bar labeled > "syrano". I prefer this because it's very small. If you just want a small icon, why not just shrink it; say: $ convert /usr/share/pixmaps/…whatever….xpm -resize 48x24 .fvwm/small.xpm Even a 1x1 icon makes a (not very useful) mark on the screen (until you hover over it). Cheers, David.
RE: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote: >> No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches >> /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red >> `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still >> get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 2:15 AM, Thomas Schmitt asked: > Did you try the settings which helped me to get some normal icon and > to deactivate the shell as long as the window is iconized ? > > Style "XTerm" IconOverride > Style "XTerm" Icon display.xpm I just tried that and called gimp.xpm. On calling startx, I still got the inevitable mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Thanks for the idea. From: Thomas Schmitt [scdbac...@gmx.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 2:15 AM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) Subject: Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon? Hi, Kleene, Steven wrote: > Yes. If I put the cursor in the little screenshot and type a command > (echoed in a font too small to read), it does execute there. I wonder how many inadverted people shot their foot already. Did you try the settings which helped me to get some normal icon and to deactivate the shell as long as the window is iconized ? Style "XTerm" IconOverride Style "XTerm" Icon display.xpm (The name of the .xpm file may be chosen freely, of course.) Iirc, it was not necessary to restart fvwm (although this is supposed to be harmless to the current desktop population). I remember to have issued fvwm commands for experiments via the program FvwmCommand. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
Hi, Kleene, Steven wrote: > Yes. If I put the cursor in the little screenshot and type a command > (echoed in a font too small to read), it does execute there. I wonder how many inadverted people shot their foot already. Did you try the settings which helped me to get some normal icon and to deactivate the shell as long as the window is iconized ? Style "XTerm" IconOverride Style "XTerm" Icon display.xpm (The name of the .xpm file may be chosen freely, of course.) Iirc, it was not necessary to restart fvwm (although this is supposed to be harmless to the current desktop population). I remember to have issued fvwm commands for experiments via the program FvwmCommand. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 08:44:10PM +, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote:
[...]
> In fact I obsessively viewed all 386 xpm files on the whole system. None
> other than /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm matched the icon
> displayed.
Not really on-topic, but perhaps helpful: next time you do a
find ... -type f -name "*.xpm" -exec md5sum {} + | sort
or something (replace md5sum with sha5sum if you fear your machine
will be hacked [1] ;^P
Identical files will be sorted next to each other.
Cheers
[1] This is to pre-empt discussions about whether md5sum is "less
secure" than say, sha512sum :-)
- -- t
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlugirAACgkQBcgs9XrR2ka9DwCcDrkaZbcBgOT/T74VhifmDVWl
P/gAnjSgJUtqOpd45RIRfw+3kV9YKiCX
=4D5p
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Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Tue 18 Sep 2018 at 09:26:29 (+1000), Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 08:44:10PM +, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > > On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote: > > > > >> I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. > > >> ... > > >> I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > > >> Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > > >> where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > > >> zero-byte file I created. > > > > On Monday, September 17, 2018 9:41 AM, Thomas Schmitt replied: > > > > > Maybe fvwm is not happy with the zero size. > > > What happens if you put a file with a picture there ? > > > > If I put ANY other xpm there, I still see an icon that matches > > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm or a live window screenshot. > > If any xterm is open - or in fact if any other program has that file > "locked and loaded", then the effect of replacing that file on disk > will not be seen until the file gets unlocked and reloaded - logging > out of X and back in should do it (as would rebooting of course). > > There ought be a more elegant "reload this icon" method rather than > logout/in - perhaps someone else knows what it is? I don't see why you should need to involve X: it should be enough to restart fvwm because the decision as to which icon to use should be being held within fvwm, not X. BTW if you really dislike the active icon (the one that just keeps running xterm in miniature), you should be able to disable the feature with the xterm -ai commandline option. Cheers, David.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 08:44:10PM +, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote: > > >> I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. > >> ... > >> I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > >> Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > >> where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > >> zero-byte file I created. > > On Monday, September 17, 2018 9:41 AM, Thomas Schmitt replied: > > > Maybe fvwm is not happy with the zero size. > > What happens if you put a file with a picture there ? > > If I put ANY other xpm there, I still see an icon that matches > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm or a live window screenshot. If any xterm is open - or in fact if any other program has that file "locked and loaded", then the effect of replacing that file on disk will not be seen until the file gets unlocked and reloaded - logging out of X and back in should do it (as would rebooting of course). There ought be a more elegant "reload this icon" method rather than logout/in - perhaps someone else knows what it is?
RE: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Mon Sep 10 08:47:39 EDT 2018, I wrote: >> I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. >> ... >> I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: >> Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 >> where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a >> zero-byte file I created. On Monday, September 17, 2018 9:41 AM, Thomas Schmitt replied: > Maybe fvwm is not happy with the zero size. > What happens if you put a file with a picture there ? If I put ANY other xpm there, I still see an icon that matches /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm or a live window screenshot. > Did you already try searches like >find /usr -name mini.xterm_48x48.xpm In fact I obsessively viewed all 386 xpm files on the whole system. None other than /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm matched the icon displayed. > Does "live window screenshot" mean that the icon is willing to execute > blindly toggled shell commands ? Yes. If I put the cursor in the little screenshot and type a command (echoed in a font too small to read), it does execute there. > The icon pixmap is probably > /usr/share/X11/fvwm2/pixmaps/display.xpm > but the same one is also in > /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/display.xpm I have the second of those. It gives an error about a corrupt image when I try to display it. On Monday, September 17, 2018 12:43 PM, David Wright replied: > I think the intention is that you use NoIcon for no icon. I just tried this, and it causes .xinitrc to bring up the xterms in the background with no icon whatsoever. They show in a process list (ps), and if I right-click on the desktop I can bring them up from the fvwm menu. That's not a bad solution (two clicks), but I was a little happier when I had an icon with a small name bar and no picture (one click). Thanks to all for the suggestions. From: David Wright [deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 12:43 PM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon? On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05:35 (+), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. The > issue started when I upgraded from Debian v7 (fvwm 1:2.5.30) to Debian v9 > (fvwm 1:2.6.7-3). In both cases fvwm-icons was also installed. > > I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > > where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > zero-byte file I created. I think the intention is that you use NoIcon for no icon. Anyway, you probably want to read the man pages for fvwm and xterm as they interact in quite a complicated manner. Use less on both and read all the hits made by /icon. > When startx is called, it gets this from ~/.xinitrc: > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & > > No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red > `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still > get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Furthermore, > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm still shows an access time from weeks > ago. It seems that fvwm has that image cached or built in somehow. Once > fvwm is up, if I call "xterm &" and convert that to an icon, it appears as a > live window screenshot, not as mini.xterm_48x48.xpm. Yes, that's the xterm built-in that Nicolas alluded to, and when you press (un)maximise and (un)iconify you can get some remarkable effects. And some of the iconification options are "sloppy" for want of a better word, as in "With this style, fvwm uses application provided icons if the icon is changed but uses the icon provided in the configuration file until then." > In Debian 7, calling null.xpm gives me no xpm icon, just a title bar labeled > "syrano". I prefer this because it's very small. I'm guessing things have changed in the meantime, judging by fvwm's version numbers and changelogs. I tend not to notice as I'm not a fan of menus and iconifying, prefering everything left open on a large area of real-estate (5x4 rather than 2x2). Cheers, David.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05:35 (+), Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote: > I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. The > issue started when I upgraded from Debian v7 (fvwm 1:2.5.30) to Debian v9 > (fvwm 1:2.6.7-3). In both cases fvwm-icons was also installed. > > I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > > where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > zero-byte file I created. I think the intention is that you use NoIcon for no icon. Anyway, you probably want to read the man pages for fvwm and xterm as they interact in quite a complicated manner. Use less on both and read all the hits made by /icon. > When startx is called, it gets this from ~/.xinitrc: > xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & > > No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red > `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still > get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Furthermore, > /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm still shows an access time from weeks > ago. It seems that fvwm has that image cached or built in somehow. Once > fvwm is up, if I call "xterm &" and convert that to an icon, it appears as a > live window screenshot, not as mini.xterm_48x48.xpm. Yes, that's the xterm built-in that Nicolas alluded to, and when you press (un)maximise and (un)iconify you can get some remarkable effects. And some of the iconification options are "sloppy" for want of a better word, as in "With this style, fvwm uses application provided icons if the icon is changed but uses the icon provided in the configuration file until then." > In Debian 7, calling null.xpm gives me no xpm icon, just a title bar labeled > "syrano". I prefer this because it's very small. I'm guessing things have changed in the meantime, judging by fvwm's version numbers and changelogs. I tend not to notice as I'm not a fan of menus and iconifying, prefering everything left open on a large area of real-estate (5x4 rather than 2x2). Cheers, David.
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) (2018-09-17): > I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. AFAIK, Fvwm get most windows icons (as opposed to menu / button icons) from the applications themselves. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
Hi, Kleene, Steve wrote: > I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: > Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 > where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a > zero-byte file I created. Maybe fvwm is not happy with the zero size. What happens if you put a file with a picture there ? > It seems that fvwm has that image cached or built in somehow. Did you already try searches like find /usr -name mini.xterm_48x48.xpm > if I call "xterm &" and convert that to an icon, it appears as a > live window screenshot, not as mini.xterm_48x48.xpm. Does "live window screenshot" mean that the icon is willing to execute blindly toggled shell commands ? I experienced such a problem with Debian 8. Without any Style "XTerm" i got an "icon" which was indeed an active terminal with unreadble text. I fixed this by these lines in .fvwm2rc (dunno where i learned them): Style "XTerm" IconOverride Style "XTerm" Icon display.xpm The icon pixmap is probably /usr/share/X11/fvwm2/pixmaps/display.xpm but the same one is also in /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/display.xpm Have a nice day :) Thomas
where does fvwm get its xterm icon?
I can't figure out where fvwm is getting the xpm icon for an xterm. The issue started when I upgraded from Debian v7 (fvwm 1:2.5.30) to Debian v9 (fvwm 1:2.6.7-3). In both cases fvwm-icons was also installed. I have this in ~/.fvwm/config: Style "XTerm" Icon null.xpm, SloppyFocus, IconBox 200x200-1+8 where null.xpm is intended to call /usr/share/pixmaps/fvwm/null.xpm, a zero-byte file I created. When startx is called, it gets this from ~/.xinitrc: xterm -geometry 125x58+964+56 -iconic -title syrano -e ssh syrano & No matter what I list in config, the xterm icon that comes up matches /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm (an icon with a blue `T' over a red `X'). If I copy some other xpm on top of that and do startx again, I still get the original mini.xterm_48x48.xpm image. Furthermore, /usr/share/pixmaps/mini.xterm_48x48.xpm still shows an access time from weeks ago. It seems that fvwm has that image cached or built in somehow. Once fvwm is up, if I call "xterm &" and convert that to an icon, it appears as a live window screenshot, not as mini.xterm_48x48.xpm. In Debian 7, calling null.xpm gives me no xpm icon, just a title bar labeled "syrano". I prefer this because it's very small. Thanks.
Re: fvwm -- undeserved BAD PRESS
On Tue 27 Feb 2018 at 03:58:30 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > I have days (e actually hours) of experience with fvwm. > Experts () are telling me that significant mods to config > files *MANDATORY*. bull!! > > Can tweaking config file(s) be profitable? -- Sure! > Are they necessary? -- *NO WAY*! I worked long into the night :) to let you know this in a posting 6 hours before you wrote this. > The more I ask for meek user info (and receive *GEEK*speak), the > more impressed I am with just how useful it can be *WITHOUT* any > tweaks. Bear in mind that fvwm has been around for this entire millennium so it must be doing something right. > I'll admit to two mods: > 1. disposed of atrocious wallpaper. I agree. It's easy to have different pictures every time you start/ restart it if you like (desktops), and I use a dynamic background colour (laptops) that gives me the battery state and warns if the temperature exceeds 80/85°C. > 2. coerced visible font size suitable for tri-focal wearing > SeniorCitizen. > > I'll continue to ask for "end user" oriented documentation. > I'll continue to drool over Geek Tweaks I get. > > I'll continue to be impressed with what can be accomplished with > fv[w]m -- "out of the box". Great. Cheers, David.
Re: fvwm -- undeserved BAD PRESS
Richard Owlett writes: > I have days (e actually hours) of experience with fvwm. > Experts () are telling me that significant mods to config files > *MANDATORY*. bull!! > Can tweaking config file(s) be profitable? -- Sure! > Are they necessary? -- *NO WAY*! Actually, you can use X with no window manager at all. It's weird and awkward, but it works. But you've already started tweaking your fvwm config. That's how it works. In a couple of years yours will be just as ornate as ours. BTW I recently learned that the way to control Firefox is to call it Gecko in Style commands. It's a PITA because it ignores the standard X command line arguments such as "-geometry", tries to be "clever" about placing itself, and uses its title as a message window. Style Gecko IgnoreGravity, !UsePPosition seems to beat it into submission. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
fvwm -- undeserved BAD PRESS
I have days (e actually hours) of experience with fvwm. Experts () are telling me that significant mods to config files *MANDATORY*. bull!! Can tweaking config file(s) be profitable? -- Sure! Are they necessary? -- *NO WAY*! The more I ask for meek user info (and receive *GEEK*speak), the more impressed I am with just how useful it can be *WITHOUT* any tweaks. I'll admit to two mods: 1. disposed of atrocious wallpaper. 2. coerced visible font size suitable for tri-focal wearing SeniorCitizen. I'll continue to ask for "end user" oriented documentation. I'll continue to drool over Geek Tweaks I get. I'll continue to be impressed with what can be accomplished with fvsm -- "out of the box".
Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?
On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 20:24:28 (+0100), Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me? > > Without any customization by anybody it is quite useless. Lest this give the wrong impression to someone coming across this post, it's a bit harsh, and would assume that you'd done nothing with ~/.xsession either. I hid my ~/.fvwm and restarted fvwm to take a look at the default configuration. You seem to get 2x2 desks each with 2x2 viewports, its pager at top right (underneath my clock as it happened), with a window selector down the right margin. The root window had a well- populated menu of applications and utilities. Because I don't use desks but a 5x4 set of viewports, I was limited in what I could reach as three of the desks are empty. Restoring .fvwm and restarting fvwm brought everything back to usual. When I ran startx with no .fvwm, everything in my .xsession started normally except that many of the xterms were stacked on top of each other because they were all trapped in a 2x2 desk instead of 5x4. (Restoring my .fvwm and restarting would still involve dragging a lot of xterms to their proper places; I didn't bother, but went back to startx.) > With reasonable customization by an initial ~/.fvwm2rc and some additions > by myself, it does for me: > > - Add handles to the windows so i can move, resize, iconify them, and > make them "sticky" to the glass of the screen. > > - Define meaning of mouse buttons. The left one certainly worked in the root window. > - Set background and create a first xterm after startup of the X Window > System. My dynamic background colours were functioning. Everything in .xsession started normally. > - Provide FvwmPager by which i switch between the 8 pages of my > virtual desktop. As I said, a pager was there (obviously lacking my usual buttons). > - Install FvwmButtons panel with FvwmPager, xclock, "Fvwm2" button with > a master menu (very rarely used by me), and a button that creates > xterms with bash sessions (often used). > > - Define and perform my private definition of the MS-Windows keys > of my keybard: > Key Super_L A N RaiseLower > Key Super_R A N RaiseLower > > - Refrain from annoying me with xterm icons with fully active shell dialog: > Style "XTerm" IconOverride > Style "XTerm" Icon display.xpm > > The rest of graphical programs is started by shell comands in xterms: > Web browser, PDF reader, own programs ... Again, a populated root menu is there. Just to give an indication of fvwm's stability, my ~/.fvwm/config is dated 2002-04-08. It has 9 hooks: I use init-restart and post (my main configuration) but I also read "last-post" hook in the latter. Both init-restart amd last-post are symlinks to -$HOSTNAME-$[screen] variants, though I haven't used a second $[screen] since retiring. Back then, the screens were on separate VDUs differing in size and resolution. Not xinerama: only the mouse could move between them. But I've always been accustomed to just one desk per screen. Going back even further, I remember running X with three resolutions configured (CtrlAlt+ and CtrlAlt- rotated through the alternatives). I think this is why I always called fvwm's viewports (as above) by the term "pages", which is also used by xterm. To me, at that time, a viewport was the part of the root window you could see at any time, and it slid around when you moved the mouse against the edge, like sliding a large placemat on a tray. Viewports in this sense were the bread and butter of graphics systems like eg GINO. Cheers, David.
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:17:46 -0600 John Hasler sent: > BTW you should be editing ~/.fvwm/config if you are using the current > release. The 2 was dropped from fvwm2 a long time ago and all fvwm > related files placed under ~/.fvwm with config being the default > configuration file. After contemplation, my reply is: Thank you, Learnt something else. I was still using fvwm2rc. Charlie
Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 01:24 PM, Thomas Schmitt wrote: Hi, Richard Owlett wrote: Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me? Without any customization by anybody it is quite useless. *ROFL* It may have aesthetic problems. BUT My real world needs (not glittzy desires) were handled by my: 1. 8k Commodore PET with "Chiclets" keyboard. 2. dual 8" floppy, 16k ram, 2MHZ Z80 S100 system. 3. early production Kaypro 10. Are you saying that current Debian encumbered with unmodified fvwm can not match the productivity of that list? BTW I *do* have a sense of humor and/or absurd. Will not admit to what relatives and friends say. For perspective, I believe adding more than mate-core, marco, and Xsystem to a base CLI oriented base Debian install is overkill ;/ Thanks to all. You may not consider my goals sane. But you are giving me what I need.
Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?
Hi, Richard Owlett wrote: > Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me? Without any customization by anybody it is quite useless. With reasonable customization by an initial ~/.fvwm2rc and some additions by myself, it does for me: - Add handles to the windows so i can move, resize, iconify them, and make them "sticky" to the glass of the screen. - Define meaning of mouse buttons. - Set background and create a first xterm after startup of the X Window System. - Provide FvwmPager by which i switch between the 8 pages of my virtual desktop. - Install FvwmButtons panel with FvwmPager, xclock, "Fvwm2" button with a master menu (very rarely used by me), and a button that creates xterms with bash sessions (often used). - Define and perform my private definition of the MS-Windows keys of my keybard: Key Super_L A N RaiseLower Key Super_R A N RaiseLower - Refrain from annoying me with xterm icons with fully active shell dialog: Style "XTerm" IconOverride Style "XTerm" Icon display.xpm The rest of graphical programs is started by shell comands in xterms: Web browser, PDF reader, own programs ... Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 12:42:25 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 02/26/2018 10:54 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Am 2018-02-26 hackte Richard Owlett in die Tasten: > >>I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: > >>e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> > >> > >>I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the > >>default font size for menus. > >> > >>I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of > >>"not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for > >>the leaves" > >> > >>Suggestions? > > > ><http://www.fvwm.org/> > ><http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/> > ><http://fvwmforums.org/> > >#fvwm on > > > ><http://www.xteddy.org/fvwm/user_enumerate.html> > ><http://linuxgazette.net/127/adam.html> > ><http://ultharine.ninthgate.se/fvwm/> > ><http://fvwm-crystal.sourceforge.net/> > ><http://ironphoenix.org/tril/fvwm/configs/> > ><http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/> > ><http://www.twobarleycorns.net/fvwm-decors.html> > >< > > > > > > Selecting from contents of items in your list: > 1. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-gui-list/1998-November/msg00074.html > could be thought of as a HOWTO write what I'm looking for. > 2. > http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-a-desk-a-page-and-the-screen >is a sample of the writing style/format of what I'm looking. >As a bonus, it all but explicitly states that the "out of the > box" configuration of fvwm solves my *PROBLEM*. > > Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me? > Perhaps I should have used "good advertising copy" rather than > _Owner's Manual_ or _Operator's Manual_ as an example of what I'm > looking for. After making sure you've got a backup of a "good" .fvwm/config it's very easy to experiment with your configuration. Open the file in an editor, make some changes and save the file. (Don't exit.) Click in the root window and you should be able to find a Restart item on the menu. Click on it and for a moment the windows will all lose their decorations. A moment later, they return and you're now running the new configuration. Carry on editing, and try something else…ad infinitum. Cheers, David.
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 12:12 PM, Curt wrote: On 2018-02-26, Richard Owlett wrote: Ahh, but a Flocken Elektrowagen might today may be more functional in some circumstances than a Rolls Royce. http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/programming/useful/fvwm/index.html ((yes)^((YES)^((*YES*)^(1000 http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/programming/useful/fvwm/viewports/index.html *EXPLICITLY* states what I could only infer. It also suggests that if I replace whatever window manager MATE uses with fvwm I can have the good parts of MATE (its familiarity) and the environmental separation I've been chasing. I.E. "I can have my cake and eat it too!" I only read the nice discussion of "Viewports & Workspaces"; it doesn't tell you how to do anything (that's elsewhere), but does clarify the terminology. Maybe somebody already gave you this link (excuse the redundancy if that's so). Actually I kind of want a viewport now for myself (I mean one greater than the physical size of my screen--for the moment it is *exactly* the size of my physical screen (because I don't really have one really I guess).
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 10:54 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote: Hi, Am 2018-02-26 hackte Richard Owlett in die Tasten: I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the default font size for menus. I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for the leaves" Suggestions? <http://www.fvwm.org/> <http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/> <http://fvwmforums.org/> #fvwm on <http://www.xteddy.org/fvwm/user_enumerate.html> <http://linuxgazette.net/127/adam.html> <http://ultharine.ninthgate.se/fvwm/> <http://fvwm-crystal.sourceforge.net/> <http://ironphoenix.org/tril/fvwm/configs/> <http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/> <http://www.twobarleycorns.net/fvwm-decors.html> < Selecting from contents of items in your list: 1. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-gui-list/1998-November/msg00074.html could be thought of as a HOWTO write what I'm looking for. 2. http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-a-desk-a-page-and-the-screen is a sample of the writing style/format of what I'm looking. As a bonus, it all but explicitly states that the "out of the box" configuration of fvwm solves my *PROBLEM*. Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me? Perhaps I should have used "good advertising copy" rather than _Owner's Manual_ or _Operator's Manual_ as an example of what I'm looking for. Thanks.
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 2018-02-26, Richard Owlett wrote: > > Ahh, but a Flocken Elektrowagen might today may be more functional in > some circumstances than a Rolls Royce. > http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/programming/useful/fvwm/index.html I only read the nice discussion of "Viewports & Workspaces"; it doesn't tell you how to do anything (that's elsewhere), but does clarify the terminology. Maybe somebody already gave you this link (excuse the redundancy if that's so). Actually I kind of want a viewport now for myself (I mean one greater than the physical size of my screen--for the moment it is *exactly* the size of my physical screen (because I don't really have one really I guess). -- “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” -Oscar Wilde
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
Richard Owlett writes: > I remember 026's as the normal input device and a UART was square > inches of a double sided board. So do I. I kept on learning. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 10:32 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote: Richard Owlett wrote: On 02/26/2018 09:23 AM, David Wright wrote: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate. Already had them bookmarked. They, like <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html>, might be compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an _Operator's Manual_. The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit .fvwm2rc . I've already made some modifications to .fvwm2rc and have in mind some more for which I'll be doing a detailed read of references I already have. For most people, fvwm usage *is* at the level of editing the config. Depending on the changes you might have made in the config, it can behave massively differently to how it works for somebody else. The default config as-shipped is basically just a bare-bones example of what you might do with fvwm; it's a framework for you to build your own desktop. Ahh, but a Flocken Elektrowagen might today may be more functional in some circumstances than a Rolls Royce.
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 10:17 AM, John Hasler wrote: Richard Owlett writes: Already had them bookmarked. They, like <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html>, might be compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an _Operator's Manual_. The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit .fvwm2rc . The target market for fvwm is people like me who want a sort of diy desktop environment kit. Yes but I have a specific need. Might be served by KDE workspaces (ww?). My my reading suggests Desktops of Pages in fvwm may be appropriate. After wandering down some strange byways I got fvwm from Debian repository installed. It works out of the box. I need an orientation to fvwm in its default configuration. I beginning to suspect it may *WITHOUT TWEAKING* get the job done. Just not by any facility of the path I was contemplating. I.E. To get from Staten Island to Santa Cruz one need not use the Suez Canal. If you want your window manager to do what you want rather than what someone else thinks you should be comfortable with you have to learn how to make it do what you want. The more choices, the more there is to learn. I remember 026's as the normal input device and a UART was square inches of a double sided board. BTW you should be editing ~/.fvwm/config if you are using the current release. The 2 was dropped from fvwm2 a long time ago and all fvwm related files placed under ~/.fvwm with config being the default configuration file. That was a typo. I've been reading too much old documentation.
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
Hi, Am 2018-02-26 hackte Richard Owlett in die Tasten: > I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: > e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> > > I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the > default font size for menus. > > I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of > "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for > the leaves" > > Suggestions? <http://www.fvwm.org/> <http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/> <http://fvwmforums.org/> #fvwm on <http://www.xteddy.org/fvwm/user_enumerate.html> <http://linuxgazette.net/127/adam.html> <http://ultharine.ninthgate.se/fvwm/> <http://fvwm-crystal.sourceforge.net/> <http://ironphoenix.org/tril/fvwm/configs/> <http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/> <http://www.twobarleycorns.net/fvwm-decors.html> < -- Michelle KonzackMiila ITSystems @ TDnet GNU/Linux Developer 00372-54541400
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
Richard Owlett wrote: >On 02/26/2018 09:23 AM, David Wright wrote: >> >> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html >> >> Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted >> this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate. > >Already had them bookmarked. >They, like <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html>, might be >compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an >_Operator's Manual_. > >The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit >.fvwm2rc . > >I've already made some modifications to .fvwm2rc and have in mind some >more for which I'll be doing a detailed read of references I already have. For most people, fvwm usage *is* at the level of editing the config. Depending on the changes you might have made in the config, it can behave massively differently to how it works for somebody else. The default config as-shipped is basically just a bare-bones example of what you might do with fvwm; it's a framework for you to build your own desktop. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Every time you use Tcl, God kills a kitten." -- Malcolm Ray
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
Richard Owlett writes: > Already had them bookmarked. They, like > <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html>, might be compared to an > _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an _Operator's > Manual_. > The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit > .fvwm2rc . The target market for fvwm is people like me who want a sort of diy desktop environment kit. If you want your window manager to do what you want rather than what someone else thinks you should be comfortable with you have to learn how to make it do what you want. The more choices, the more there is to learn. BTW you should be editing ~/.fvwm/config if you are using the current release. The 2 was dropped from fvwm2 a long time ago and all fvwm related files placed under ~/.fvwm with config being the default configuration file. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 09:23 AM, David Wright wrote: On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 08:15:44 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the default font size for menus. I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for the leaves" Suggestions? https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate. Already had them bookmarked. They, like <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html>, might be compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an _Operator's Manual_. The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit .fvwm2rc . I've already made some modifications to .fvwm2rc and have in mind some more for which I'll be doing a detailed read of references I already have.
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 08:15:44 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: > e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> > > I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and > the default font size for menus. > > I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of > "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees > for the leaves" > > Suggestions? https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate. > TIA Don't mention it. Cheers, David.
Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?
On 02/26/2018 08:54 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote: Hi, Richard Owlett wrote: http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html That's a quick tour through a few gestures of fvwm. Maybe it gives you some ideas for playing with the configuration. But obviously you want something different. "not seeing the trees for the leaves" Ok. What forest do you want to be in and what trees do you want to hug ? I.e. what are the results you want to achieve ? Extending the analogy, perhaps to the breaking point, I want to view the forest from 10,000 feet. We have several fvwm users here. Maybe one of us has a solution at hand. After some exercise and with the man pages or web tutorials you will have better chances to get what you need. Assume your department hires a new computer literate clerk typist. Your system administrator has configured all your machines. What would the new clerk need/want to read to do useful work.
Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?
Hi, Richard Owlett wrote: > http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html That's a quick tour through a few gestures of fvwm. Maybe it gives you some ideas for playing with the configuration. But obviously you want something different. > "not seeing the trees for the leaves" Ok. What forest do you want to be in and what trees do you want to hug ? I.e. what are the results you want to achieve ? We have several fvwm users here. Maybe one of us has a solution at hand. After some exercise and with the man pages or web tutorials you will have better chances to get what you need. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
On 2018-02-26, Richard Owlett wrote: > I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: > e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> > > I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the > default font size for menus. > > I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of > "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for > the leaves" Try the "Lumberjack" or "Deciduous" theme. > Suggestions? > TIA > > > -- “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” -Oscar Wilde
An *operator's" guide to fvwm?
I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration: e.g. <http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html> I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the default font size for menus. I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for the leaves" Suggestions? TIA
Re: [RESOLVED] -- Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 2018-02-24, Richard Owlett wrote: > > I had used netinst to do a base command line only install followed by > doing "apt-get install fvwm". > > Didn't work. It needed "apt-get install xorg lightdm". It worked perfectly. -- “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” -Oscar Wilde
[RESOLVED] -- Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
History
I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;)
It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities".
It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis.
fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense
"cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by
the fvwm-crystal package.
The problem
It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages
I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out
how to get that to appear.
Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line
only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get
install fvwm".
I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.
I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created,
it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been
there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this
or that doodad.
Help please.
TIA
Found the underlying problem.
The design team measures success in terms of "elegance" and "completeness".
There is a sub-class of "retail customers" {so to speak} who want it to
"just work *as expected*" ;}
This example of that sub-class is by philosophy a "minimalist" and by
circumstances "resource constrained". I have a single laptop {no
need/desire/justification for LAN} who would not suffer if circumstances
moved him back to using 56k dial-up.
I had used netinst to do a base command line only install followed by
doing "apt-get install fvwm".
Didn't work. It needed "apt-get install xorg lightdm".
I've been gnawing on aspects of the problem since Squeeze.
The best idea I've come up with is having a tool that can author a
custom preseed.cfg file. One of the goals being not to touch or affect
the internals of the Debian installer.
Has anyone tried something similar?
An _owl_ now _ducks_ for cover :}
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:57:12AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > I just did "apt-get install xorg". > Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. So fvwm is running already (more below) > However typing "fvwm" at command line gives > >[fvwm][main] <> can't open display You are trying to start it off a console not "in" X? This won't work -- fvwm needs (as every X application) to know which X server to talk to. This is usually done via the DISPLAY environment variable. So to start fvwm you would have either to start it from "whithin" the X session (e.g. from an XTerm running in there, or more typically from an X session init script) or you'd have to provide the "display" address yourself. The canonical way of doing that is that X invokes a session init script (in your trusty debian somewhere /etc/X11/Xsession, which collects bits and pieces in /etc/X11/Xsession.d -- therein 50x11-common_determine-startup should be doing the window manager magic for you. So that's probably why X "does give me a fvwm screen" above, if I got you correctly. > What's still to be installed/configured? > Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and > configuring xorg? All should be well (or I misunderstood you) Cheers - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQR80ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kauNQCggJWzWudyCiVdrTZ3BZL+3eGl 2ikAoIHgJByHyanoAMWnssJTne906BFr =d1q8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:57:12 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > I just did "apt-get install xorg". > Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. Fine. Now use the mouse (click) to get a menu. > However typing "fvwm" at command line gives > > [fvwm][main] <> can't open display Do you mean you typed 'fvwm' instead of 'startx'? If you did - stop doing it. > What's still to be installed/configured? Nothing. > Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and > configuring xorg? No. -- Brian.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
David Wright writes: > It doesn't mean that if you install a package designed to run on X > that apt will immediately install all the packages required for a > functional X system. Fvwm does not depend on an X server because it might be running on a headless machine while an X server is running on the machine the user is sitting in front of. The X Window System is a *network* system. Every window on your screen could be coming from a different remote computer. So could the window manager, which is just another process to the X server. Install the xorg package. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 16:56:19 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:12:04AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window > > with no graphical ornaments !) > > Aha. As someone already said in this thread, it seems you have no > X installed. Package xserver-xorg, I'd guess... 'apt install xorg' is better for most users (which includes the OP). > > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". > Hm. This one is in package xinit, which is not a necessary part > of X. So not a bad omen in itself. xorg depends on xinit. > > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > > portion of the Xsystem been installed? > > Yes, I'd venture your X server is missing. To answer the question as posed - no. An xserver is a display device. It runs on the machine the user is sat in front of. The program to be displayed (fvwm in this case) can be located on any machine on the network, like the supercomputer a few thousand miles away. The speed of display will be limited by the network connection. Over dial-up, fvwm and xorg may as well be on the same machine. So, you are correct and helpful - but didn't (as you usually do) answer the question. ;) -- Brian.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 10:23:53 (-0600), David Wright wrote: > > #!/bin/sh > exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & > WMPID=$! This line got wrapped; sorry. > xterm … > xterm … > swisswatch -title local -noshape > xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail > xclock -strftime "%a %d" > # and so on > # wait for the window manager in the background to die > wait $WMPID A clean copy: #!/bin/sh exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & WMPID=$! xterm … xterm … swisswatch -title local -noshape xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail xclock -strftime "%a %d" # and so on # wait for the window manager in the background to die wait $WMPID Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:57:12 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 02/23/2018 09:12 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > >On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > >>History > >>I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) > >>It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". > >>It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. > >>fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some > >>sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been > >>installed by the fvwm-crystal package. > >> > >>The problem > >>It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The > >>web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could > >>not figure out how to get that to appear. > >> > >>Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base > >>command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by > >>doing "apt-get install fvwm". > >> > >>I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. > > > >To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one > >window with no graphical ornaments !) > > > >>I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been > >>created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files > >>should have been there on initial first run. Only > >>instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. > >> > > > >It was suggested that > >>So to get you kick-started, > >>just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm > >>consisting of this one line: > >> > >> Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config > >That did not solve my problem. > > > >I copied the file at > >http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to > >/home/richard/.fvwm2rc . > >I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' > >The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display > > > >Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the > >command line and received "can't open display". > > > >I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". > > > >When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > >portion of the Xsystem been installed? > > > >TIA > > I just did "apt-get install xorg". > Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. > However typing "fvwm" at command line gives > >[fvwm][main] <> can't open display > > What's still to be installed/configured? > Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and > configuring xorg? >From https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00794.html As mentioned in another thread just now, I run X with startx. I've always stuck to the Debian Way™ which means using ~/.xsession rather than ~/.xinitrc. Stripped down to the essentials, my ~/.xsession consists of: #!/bin/sh exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & WMPID=$! xterm … xterm … swisswatch -title local -noshape xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail xclock -strftime "%a %d" # and so on # wait for the window manager in the background to die wait $WMPID IOW you run it in your ~/.xsession as X starts up, not from the command line. Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:12:04 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > >History > >I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) > >It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". > >It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. > >fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some > >sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been > >installed by the fvwm-crystal package. > > > >The problem > >It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web > >pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not > >figure out how to get that to appear. > > > >Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base > >command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by > >doing "apt-get install fvwm". > > > >I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. > > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window > with no graphical ornaments !) > > >I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been > >created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should > >have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples > >for adding this or that doodad. > > > > It was suggested that > >So to get you kick-started, > >just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm > >consisting of this one line: > > > > Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config > That did not solve my problem. > > I copied the file at > http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to > /home/richard/.fvwm2rc . > I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' > The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display > > Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the > command line and received "can't open display". > > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". > > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > portion of the Xsystem been installed? It sounds to me as if you're misinterpreting the concept of Debian's dependencies. The idea is that when you install package A (which needs library B) and run it, the call to library B doesn't point into outer space but into an installed library. It doesn't mean that if you install a package designed to run on X that apt will immediately install all the packages required for a functional X system. So what fvwm does is to run, look around, then say "I don't see anything upon which I could usefully perform, so it gives up in good order after saying why. Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 02/23/2018 09:12 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: History I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the fvwm-crystal package. The problem It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out how to get that to appear. Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window with no graphical ornaments !) I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. It was suggested that So to get you kick-started, just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm consisting of this one line: Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config That did not solve my problem. I copied the file at http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to /home/richard/.fvwm2rc . I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the command line and received "can't open display". I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some portion of the Xsystem been installed? TIA I just did "apt-get install xorg". Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. However typing "fvwm" at command line gives [fvwm][main] <> can't open display What's still to be installed/configured? Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and configuring xorg?
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:12:04AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window > with no graphical ornaments !) Aha. As someone already said in this thread, it seems you have no X installed. Package xserver-xorg, I'd guess... > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". Hm. This one is in package xinit, which is not a necessary part of X. So not a bad omen in itself. > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > portion of the Xsystem been installed? Yes, I'd venture your X server is missing. Cheers - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQOaMACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbd4ACfV7A7U+gc+Jjh23LiMx8/MsJE jQMAnR17hNtIYOUZaCXda85B/Rqggnla =oA0h -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: History I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the fvwm-crystal package. The problem It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out how to get that to appear. Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window with no graphical ornaments !) I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. It was suggested that So to get you kick-started, just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm consisting of this one line: Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config That did not solve my problem. I copied the file at http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to /home/richard/.fvwm2rc . I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the command line and received "can't open display". I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some portion of the Xsystem been installed? TIA
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
Richard Owlett writes: > I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. I > found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, > it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been > there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this > or that doodad. You should get an empty display. Clicking it should get you a menu. One of the choices should be some sort of configuration widget. I've never used it: like most fvwm users I have a highly idiosyncratic config that has evolved over many years. You should install all the recommended and and suggested packages. The default config others have suggested is a good starting point. However, the fact that you got a command line is a problem. Did you install a display manager? If not you need to start X manually. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 08:43:42AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 02:21:11PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Hi, > > > > tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in > > > > https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config > > which is the download view of > > https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/ > > > > It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement. > > I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc > > >From the fvwm(1) man page: > >Here is the complete list of all >file locations queried in the default installation (only the first > found file is used): > > $HOME/.fvwm/config >/usr/local/share/fvwm/config > >$HOME/.fvwm/.fvwm2rc >$HOME/.fvwm2rc >/usr/local/share/fvwm/.fvwm2rc >/usr/local/share/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc > /etc/system.fvwm2rc Now, /usr/local isn't a good place for distribution files. For the Debian-distributed fvwm I'd expect things to be in /usr/share (and so on). And yes, you'll find things in /usr/share, except that config is "hidden" in a sub-directory, like so: /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config (as I noted in my previous post, btw). Probably to avoid interfering with an already existing local config, I don't know. Cheers - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQHZYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYFFQCfc0LLy0YRPIKSbG0UAeyHqm+Z l1kAn3Vo9SQa4WhPrthFxWKnMSd2nEpB =L5/P -END PGP SIGNATURE-
