Re: [Proposal] ASF Fediverse/ActivityPub instance
On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 4:50 AM Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > Hi, > > Sam Ruby wrote: > > > > TL;DR: given a set of moderation guidelines and volunteers to > > administer them, I'm willing to set up and host an ASF > > Fediverse/ActivityPub instance on fly.io... > > Do you mean to open this to everybody who has an @apache.org account? > > Or just for a few official handles like announce@, TheASF@ ? > > If the latter, the moderation work might be much lower. > > Or maybe setting up *two* services makes sense, people.s.a.o and > foundation.s.a.o, with the latter being more critical but less costly > to operate from a moderation point of view. I don't want this to be me driving the social requirements. I want comdev and/or M&P (and ideally both) coming to an agreement on what is best. I'm merely offering to make the technical and hosting parts happen. I'm OK with experiments (let's try this... no that didn't work, how about that). Preferably ones with clear exit criteria (example: moderators don't show up and the instance gets shut down). > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
[Proposal] ASF Fediverse/ActivityPub instance
TL;DR: given a set of moderation guidelines and volunteers to administer them, I'm willing to set up and host an ASF Fediverse/ActivityPub instance on fly.io. - - - Technical background: While Mastodon is the most common and known implementation, there are plenty of others at various stages of development. Most with instructions that can be followed in an afternoon to set up an instance. Costs to run an instance vary, but I am seeing many reports that people are finding that they can host their own server on a free tier at various cloud service providers. I'm willing to volunteer for all of the above. These days I work for ly.io, and can host it for free. I'm not asking for anything in return - while I don't think it would be a good idea to make it a secret where the instance is hosted, no official recognition is required. I'll work with the infrastructure team so that an .apache.org name will be the way to access it, and to ensure that I am not the only one with access to the VM. My default assumption is mastodon is the software to be used, but I can be convinced to install another service instead. Now let's examine the worst case scenario: this service is wildly successful (a good problem to have) and I get hit by a bus, and the ASF infra team doesn't want to touch this service. My best guess is that this would cost hundreds of US dollars per year and need volunteers to run it. the former could be routinely handled as a part of the ASF budget process (presumably either M&P or Comdev), and I'm optimistic that we can find plenty of volunteers here. --- Moderation background: I have no experience in this, but from postings I see people hosting mastodon images moderation can be time consuming. I am NOT signing up for this part, hence I'm making a call for volunteers. Apparently the internet is full of trolls, and not moderating your instance can get the entire instance banned by other instances. For now, I chose to participate at https://ruby.social/@samruby ; you can find more information about that instance here: https://ruby.social/about . We will need a code of conduct, a privacy policy, server rules etc. Note the list of moderated servers at the end, it is likely that we will end up with our own list, and this list will accrue over time based on posts that don't match our expectations, and thus will require moderators. --- I don't have a time schedule in mind, but if there are volunteers this could all come together in a matter of days, and certainly could be up and running this month, and probably early this month. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: June Monthly Members Moment
Once members announce is set up, the emails should be sent there. Watch the following JIRA to track status: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-23290 - Sam Ruby On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 4:58 PM Josh Fischer wrote: > > Just a heads up. I plan to send this out June 7, the first Tuesday of the > month. It could still use a few details added. > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/yBKhD > > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 9:25 PM Josh Fischer wrote: > > > I added some content to the June newsletter. It could use some attention. > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/yBKhD > > > > On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 12:26 PM Josh Fischer wrote: > > > >> I changed the structure of the Monthly Moments pages: > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/0YyFD > >> > >> Starter page for June is below: > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/yBKhD > >> > > -- > Sent from A Mobile Device - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: A way to keep the name
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:49 PM Walter Cameron wrote: > > > YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software > > Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you > > are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a > > position where it appears that you are doing so. > > For those of us who don’t have access to the internal deliberations on this > topic can you offer any update? Is outreach something membership or M&P is > still interested in pursuing with regards to understanding the impact of > their brand? If so, what kind of outreach are they envisioning? Permit me to rephrase Rich's request. Build a plan. Bring it before M&P (specifically Joe Brockmeier) prior to execution. > Gunalchéesh, > Walter - Sam Ruby > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 4:36 AM wrote: > > > On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 14:56 -0400, me wrote: > > > This is more or less in line with what I think we’ve anticipated. I > > > really appreciate you providing the info. > > > > > > That said… to outreach or not to outreach… that is the question. > > > > So ... I have been staying out of this conversation rather > > intentionally for a number of reasons, but I feel I must speak up here. > > > > YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software > > Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you > > are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a > > position where it appears that you are doing so. > > > > > > Please forgive if I am coming across stronger than warranted here, but > > this is a line that you MUST NOT cross without the approval of M&P. > > > > Thanks. > > > > --Rich, with Board of Directors hat on. > > > > > > > > > > > I’m going to try to remain impartial in order to facilitate. (i.e. > > > this isn’t my opinion, I’m just trying to help move things forward). > > > > > > The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named > > > for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side > > > stepping the logo for the moment. > > > > > > The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were > > > March of 2021 > > > > > > - Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from > > > Jeep. > > > - Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Roman Shaposhnik > > > Reply: Roman Shaposhnik > > > Date: May 9, 2022 at 09:52:47 > > > To: me > > > Cc: ComDev > > > Subject: Re: A way to keep the name > > > > > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me wrote: > > > > > > > > Roman, welcome to the party! > > > > > > LOL! Thanks ;-) > > > > > > > I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well > > > > understood. Did you also estimate the probability of the risks? > > > > (i.e. likelihood?) > > > > > > IIRC mostly the likelihood. > > > > > > > Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous > > > > assessment? > > > > > > It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the > > > name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that > > > whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Roman. > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: May Monthly Members possible typo.
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 7:48 PM Josh Fischer wrote: > > I was notified that the newsletter stated: > > The April board meeting will be held on the 20th, at 15:00 UTC. > > Is it safe to assume this is supposed to be “May” not “April”? If so can > someone reply to the on the members list to clear up the typo? The dates and times for board meetings can be found here: https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt I wouldn't worry too much about mistakes; focus on making each month's newsletter better than the last. > -- > Sent from A Mobile Device - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: It’s time to change the name
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:49 PM Walter Cameron wrote: > > My homework above was all about gathering more data to help others make a > decision, but if there’s already an agreement on what needs to be done and > the board or membership is willing make a change without a poll or vote > that’s fine with me, I’m all for getting to the action if change is already > what’s agreed on here. I’m just trying to work with whatever options are > available to me. Why "others"? My hot button is when people use the words like "they" and "others". The ASF is the set of people who show up to do the work. As such it is constantly growing and shrinking as new people show up and others move on to other things. If you are sincere about being willing to do the work, then you are part of us. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: It’s time to change the name
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 4:20 PM Walter Cameron wrote: > > Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here, > I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how they’ve > ignored my own. There is no "they" here. If this is a topic that is important to you, show up. Do the work. Don't blame others for not doing your homework for you, or for not doing what you, yourself, are not willing to do. And, in case you are wondering, I am not a fan of polling non-participants. Particularly if that is being proposed instead of doing what actually needs to be done. I'll make a prediction: if people actually do show up and do the work (and by that I mean along the lines of how Ed Mangini has been proposing), the board will approve the results. But until then, don't ignore Ed's question, namely "Do we have someone who can take this on?" and then lament that people aren't answering your question. - Sam Ruby P.S. No, I'm not signing up to do this work. But if people do show up and encounter road-blocks, let me know and I'll see what I can do to clear the path for you to proceed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 1:30 PM Craig Russell wrote: > > I could not find where we decided whether to use members@ or members-notify@ > but I approved it. As did I. :-) > If anyone objects to the mail list, we can have that discussion for next time. > > Craig - Sam Ruby > > On May 3, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: > > > > sent. > > > > On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 12:05 PM Jarek Potiuk wrote: > > > >> Good idea Rich. Converted all subjects to plain text, compressed them so > >> that they fit in three short bullet points (not too long paragraph, still > >> comprehensible) and added the link from Rich :) > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 6:12 PM Rich Bowen wrote: > >> > >>> On Tue, 2022-05-03 at 10:56 -0500, Josh Fischer wrote: > >>>> Sam Ruby, suggested a plain text version for this round of the email. > >>>> I > >>>> **think** markdown was sent out last time and it didn't look good, > >>>> making > >>>> it harder to read/ understand . > >>>> > >>>> If we can find a way to make all the links easy to read, let's do it. > >>>> If > >>>> not, we might want to move them to an additional, external apache > >>>> wiki link > >>>> page and add a single link directing readers to the additional link > >>>> page. > >>>> > >>> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/list?memb...@apache.org:2022-4 is a possible > >>> link to that, in that it lists all of the threads that were active in > >>> April. > >>> > >>>>> You mean the links to text ? We can do it of course but I have a > >>>>> feeling > >>>>> that that defeats the purpose a bit because it allows the readers > >>>>> to jump > >>>>> straight to the discussion :). > >>>>> I updated it now to have bullet-points instead - and as long as it > >>>>> is not > >>>>> too long, that might be better visually. > >>>>> But if you feel like we need to decrease the number of links, I am > >>>>> ok with > >>>>> removing the links as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> J. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 4:56 PM Josh Fischer > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Any way we can convert your addition to text? I feel it may be a > >>>>>> lot to > >>>>>> sift through visually. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 8:32 AM Jarek Potiuk > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Updated. I think it's cool. > >>>>>>> I limited it to only discussions started in April. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Seems we have a small enough number of discussions starting > >>>>>>> every > >>>>> month, > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>> fit one small paragraph easily - and seeing just subjects of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> discussions with links directly to the discussions might be a > >>>>>>> nice > >>>>>>> reminder/refresher/information for those who missed it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 3:18 PM Jarek Potiuk > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> One option is to put that digest on a separate page, and > >>>>>>>>> just > >>>>>> provide a > >>>>>>>> link to it? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Or maybe simply put it in one paragraph/long line with links > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>> relevant > >>>>>>>> discussions :). I will try to do it and we can decide if it > >>>>>>>> makes > >>>>>> sense. > >>>>>>>> Let me try. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Josh Fischer > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I pl
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 10:39 AM Josh Fischer wrote: > > I remember us agreeing to send it out on May 5. Since I'm not a member, > I'll leave that up to either Rich or Sam to send out. I had sent the last one out on the first Tuesday of the month, which happened to be the 5th last month. I'd recommend following a similar pattern as that will avoid weekends. For some months, this may need to be adjusted for holidays. To me, one of the purposes of this exercise is to see if someone other than the usual hyper-volunteers steps up, so I won't be sending the email. But I am a moderator for that list, and if I see content that matches the wiki page in the moderation queue this week, I will approve it. Whether the person sending it is an ASF member or not won't affect whether or not I approve the content. - Sam Ruby > Thank ya > > On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 9:21 AM Rich Bowen wrote: > > > The last one we sent, Sam sent directly to the members-notify list - > > which does, indeed, need to be done by a member. > > > > I've added one more (member-specific) item to the highlights. I feel > > like we're missing something important, but I cannot remember what it > > is. > > > > What is our send date? > > > > On Mon, 2022-05-02 at 08:57 -0500, Josh Fischer wrote: > > > The newsletter has been updated and just about ready for sending > > > out.. Not > > > sure of the whos or hows of getting this across the foundation. Is > > > there > > > a preferred way that I can get this distributed? Is this something > > > only > > > a member can/should do? > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 4:20 PM Josh Fischer > > > wrote: > > > > > > > We have room for another bullet point or two if anyone wants to add > > > > anything to the critical committer communications letter. We have > > > > about > > > > two weeks before it will be sent out. Link below. > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=210078929 > > > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:32 AM Sam Ruby > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 10:30 AM Josh Fischer > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Created a starter with a few fun facts here: > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/0YyFD > > > > > > > > > > > > Feel free to add or take away as you see fit. > > > > > > > > > > THANK YOU! > > > > > > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:40 AM Sam Ruby > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Message has been posted. Next time it probably should be a > > > > > > > pure plain > > > > > > > text version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anybody want to get started on May? Create the wiki page, > > > > > > > put some > > > > > > > content there, and then send it out the first week in May > > > > > > > after others > > > > > > > have been given the opportunity to contribute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:01 AM Rich Bowen > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problem: Members (and, more generally, committers) are less > > > > > > > > engaged > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the larger Foundation than at any point in our history. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > mechanisms for getting more engaged (eg, the members > > > > > > > > mailing list) > > > > > are a > > > > > > > > firehose of unrelated content that is very frustrating to > > > > > > > > the casual > > > > > > > > participant - even those who desire a deeper engagement - > > > > > > > > and, in > > > > > > > > practice, are completely off-putting. Committers, > > > > > >
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 9:57 AM Josh Fischer wrote: > > The newsletter has been updated and just about ready for sending out.. Not > sure of the whos or hows of getting this across the foundation. Is there > a preferred way that I can get this distributed? Is this something only > a member can/should do? Emails sent to members-not...@apache.org will be placed into a moderation queue, and if approved, will be sent to all ASF members. So anybody can send the email, but in general, there is no guarantee that such emsils will get approved. In this case, however, approval is virtually guaranteed as the email is expected. I'd recommend sending the emails as plain text. My attempt last month to copy/paste from the wiki resulted in sub-optimal formatting. Thanks for following up! - Sam Ruby > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 4:20 PM Josh Fischer wrote: > > > We have room for another bullet point or two if anyone wants to add > > anything to the critical committer communications letter. We have about > > two weeks before it will be sent out. Link below. > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=210078929 > > > > - Josh > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:32 AM Sam Ruby wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 10:30 AM Josh Fischer wrote: > >> > > >> > Created a starter with a few fun facts here: > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/0YyFD > >> > > >> > Feel free to add or take away as you see fit. > >> > >> THANK YOU! > >> > >> > - Josh > >> > >> - Sam Ruby > >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:40 AM Sam Ruby wrote: > >> > > >> > > Message has been posted. Next time it probably should be a pure plain > >> > > text version. > >> > > > >> > > Anybody want to get started on May? Create the wiki page, put some > >> > > content there, and then send it out the first week in May after others > >> > > have been given the opportunity to contribute. > >> > > > >> > > - Sam Ruby > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:01 AM Rich Bowen > >> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > Problem: Members (and, more generally, committers) are less engaged > >> with > >> > > > the larger Foundation than at any point in our history. Meanwhile, > >> the > >> > > > mechanisms for getting more engaged (eg, the members mailing list) > >> are a > >> > > > firehose of unrelated content that is very frustrating to the casual > >> > > > participant - even those who desire a deeper engagement - and, in > >> > > > practice, are completely off-putting. Committers, meanwhile, have no > >> > > > real avenue, outside of their project, for further engagement. > >> > > > > >> > > > I've been struggling with ways to address this for years, and they > >> all > >> > > > tend to founder on the rocks of "People should just be doing X!" > >> which, > >> > > > in each case, is true, but also dismissive and ultimately unhelpful. > >> > > > > >> > > > I would like to propose that we are more proactive about reaching > >> out to > >> > > > our community in tiny, consumable bites, that hint at a larger feast > >> > > > that they're missing out on. > >> > > > > >> > > > Here's my proposal, but I cannot (and will not) tackle this alone, > >> > > > because that guarantees failure, which guaranteed less > >> participation the > >> > > > next time we suggest something like this. > >> > > > > >> > > > Proposal/Brainstorming doc: > >> https://hackmd.io/JaLaGy56T8qT3ODABLVswA > >> > > > > >> > > > It's an intentionally simple idea - a minimum viable idea, one > >> might say. > >> > > > > >> > > > I want to know who's going to help make it a reality. Not > >> particularly > >> > > > interested in "that's a great idea", as much as "I will help make it > >> > > > happen." > >> > > > > >> > > > This will involve engagement with Events, M&P, and Board, at a > >> minimum, > >> > > > but over time we'd hopefully engage everyone
Re: It’s time to change the name
Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a good idea. On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman wrote: > > Copying them now. > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me wrote: > > > @Andrew, > > > > How do we engage the board? > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28 > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me wrote: > > > > > Andrew, > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick > > effort > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling > > is > > > more about discovery. > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll. I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against). It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be useful there needs to be some substance. > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency > > on > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?) > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers > > almost > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart > > for > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc > > outreach. > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off? > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this, > > no. > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and > > > outreach? > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer. Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members watch this list. - Sam Ruby > > > From: Andrew Musselman > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05 > > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > > Cc: Matt Sicker > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this: > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy > > > to > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations. > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can > > open > > > a > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official > > > experience of the ASF branding is? > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation. > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility > > and > > > community values. > > > > > > Best > > > Andrew > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me wrote: > > > > > > > @Christian > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of > > > defining > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias, > > > but I > > > > think it’s definitely possible. > > > > > > > > @Matt > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty > > > quickly. > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions. > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a
Re: It’s time to change the name
A name change would be a lot of work. Put another way, the only way such a change will occur is if there are volunteers willing to see it through. Stating the problem with the hopes that somebody else solves it generally doesn't produce a satisfactory outcome. Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is your plan? What resources do you need? - Sam Ruby On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 9:00 PM Walter Cameron wrote: > > Hello all, > > When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were > continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of > appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An > environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood > media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel > entitled to play Indian. > > The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for > its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers > from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of > attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington > Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining > about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent > people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older > “Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name > and branding entirely. > > There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of > genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its > own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache > Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s > almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with > different stereotypes to use as branding. > > As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most > influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of > living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing. > By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct > and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people. > Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed > their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same. > > Gunalchéesh, > Walter Cameron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 2:32 PM Christian Grobmeier wrote: > > [snip]. Actually, such a company would basically only need the blessing of > the ASF and [snip] Honest question: why? Since the beginning of the ASF, there have been companies which provide commercial support for one or more of our products. None of them have had any sort of blessing or exclusive rights. The ASF doesn't care how they are structured or if they are for profit or non-profit. We don't merely tolerate such organizations --as long as they don't make assertions about owning the products or having any sorts of exclusive rights, we welcome and celebrate them. One such company was Covalent, and understanding what worked well and what didn't work so well might be helpful here. I've added a few links at the bottom of this email. By the way, the headline on the first link is something that would be considered very problematic - specifically the word "THE". If there is a need for a blessing, the reasoning behind such a need will have to be explicitly enumerated. As a practical matter, it is difficult to come to consensus with the membership, this doesn't feel like an operational matter which would fall under the purview of the president, so ultimately it is likely that it would have to be the board that provides any blessing. Speaking as a board member: I'd like to encourage the idea of one (or more!) support organizations, but would like to push back on the idea that such organization(s) need any sort of blessing. If I'm wrong, please convince me otherwise. - Sam Ruby https://www.cmswire.com/cms/open-source-cms/covalent-is-the-apache-support-group-001328.php http://www.lannigan.org/Covalent_History_Covalent_Technologies.htm - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 10:30 AM Josh Fischer wrote: > > Created a starter with a few fun facts here: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/0YyFD > > Feel free to add or take away as you see fit. THANK YOU! > - Josh - Sam Ruby > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:40 AM Sam Ruby wrote: > > > Message has been posted. Next time it probably should be a pure plain > > text version. > > > > Anybody want to get started on May? Create the wiki page, put some > > content there, and then send it out the first week in May after others > > have been given the opportunity to contribute. > > > > - Sam Ruby > > > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:01 AM Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > Problem: Members (and, more generally, committers) are less engaged with > > > the larger Foundation than at any point in our history. Meanwhile, the > > > mechanisms for getting more engaged (eg, the members mailing list) are a > > > firehose of unrelated content that is very frustrating to the casual > > > participant - even those who desire a deeper engagement - and, in > > > practice, are completely off-putting. Committers, meanwhile, have no > > > real avenue, outside of their project, for further engagement. > > > > > > I've been struggling with ways to address this for years, and they all > > > tend to founder on the rocks of "People should just be doing X!" which, > > > in each case, is true, but also dismissive and ultimately unhelpful. > > > > > > I would like to propose that we are more proactive about reaching out to > > > our community in tiny, consumable bites, that hint at a larger feast > > > that they're missing out on. > > > > > > Here's my proposal, but I cannot (and will not) tackle this alone, > > > because that guarantees failure, which guaranteed less participation the > > > next time we suggest something like this. > > > > > > Proposal/Brainstorming doc: https://hackmd.io/JaLaGy56T8qT3ODABLVswA > > > > > > It's an intentionally simple idea - a minimum viable idea, one might say. > > > > > > I want to know who's going to help make it a reality. Not particularly > > > interested in "that's a great idea", as much as "I will help make it > > > happen." > > > > > > This will involve engagement with Events, M&P, and Board, at a minimum, > > > but over time we'd hopefully engage everyone at the Foundation in > > > content creation. But, even then, I want to keep this tiny and > > > consumable - content that you can absorb in 2-5 minutes, always with a > > > "to get more engaged ..." call to action aspect to it. > > > > > > Come help me develop community. > > > > > > --Rich > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
Message has been posted. Next time it probably should be a pure plain text version. Anybody want to get started on May? Create the wiki page, put some content there, and then send it out the first week in May after others have been given the opportunity to contribute. - Sam Ruby On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:01 AM Rich Bowen wrote: > > Problem: Members (and, more generally, committers) are less engaged with > the larger Foundation than at any point in our history. Meanwhile, the > mechanisms for getting more engaged (eg, the members mailing list) are a > firehose of unrelated content that is very frustrating to the casual > participant - even those who desire a deeper engagement - and, in > practice, are completely off-putting. Committers, meanwhile, have no > real avenue, outside of their project, for further engagement. > > I've been struggling with ways to address this for years, and they all > tend to founder on the rocks of "People should just be doing X!" which, > in each case, is true, but also dismissive and ultimately unhelpful. > > I would like to propose that we are more proactive about reaching out to > our community in tiny, consumable bites, that hint at a larger feast > that they're missing out on. > > Here's my proposal, but I cannot (and will not) tackle this alone, > because that guarantees failure, which guaranteed less participation the > next time we suggest something like this. > > Proposal/Brainstorming doc: https://hackmd.io/JaLaGy56T8qT3ODABLVswA > > It's an intentionally simple idea - a minimum viable idea, one might say. > > I want to know who's going to help make it a reality. Not particularly > interested in "that's a great idea", as much as "I will help make it > happen." > > This will involve engagement with Events, M&P, and Board, at a minimum, > but over time we'd hopefully engage everyone at the Foundation in > content creation. But, even then, I want to keep this tiny and > consumable - content that you can absorb in 2-5 minutes, always with a > "to get more engaged ..." call to action aspect to it. > > Come help me develop community. > > --Rich > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 4:15 AM Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > Hi, > > Sam Ruby wrote: > > >... Accordingly, I've taken the sample newsletter and posted it here: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Member+Moment+-+April+2022 > > ... > > I've changed the structure slightly, with > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Member+Moments being > the homepage of those (work-in-progress, restricted to ASF Members) > newsletters, displaying a list of its child pages. And moved your > suggested content to > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Member+Moment+-+April+2022 > accordingly. > > I hope it works for you - Cunningham's law implies that what you > initially post is wrong so I had to fix it ;-) Thanks! Now everybody join in. These pages aren't Rich's. They aren't mine. They aren't Bertrands. They are ours. Act like you own the place. Commit then review. Don't wait for permission. Don't worry that it isn't perfect. And if you see something that needs fixing - fix it! > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Idea: Monthly Members Moment/Critical Committer Communications
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:46 PM Rich Bowen wrote: > > Ok, looks like we have three volunteers - Josh Fisher, Dave Fisher, and > Andrew Wetmore. So I don't feel like I'm doing this alone, which is > good. > > What we need to do still is: > > 1) Pitch this to the membership to determine whether this should land > on members@ or members-notify@ > 2) Write sample newsletter: https://hackmd.io/0eeIQ7wDQnKr-LAgN6QqLA > 3) Figure out intake tooling (could just be a Google Form) for getting > content in > 4) Figure out our schedule/deadlines to ensure that we get this out in > a predictable cadence. > > I'm going to draft a proposal to send to members@ (probably won't > happen today) and run it back past this thread, unless someone beats me > to it. I'm a big fan of Cunninham's law: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law Accordingly, I've taken the sample newsletter and posted it here: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Member+Moment+-+April+2022 I've changed March to April. Added a mention of the June members meeting. Changed the link to the ASF board meeting to the April meeting. Added a link to the whimsy page that tracks members watch. The advantage of the "ASFP" wiki is that it is member private and all ASF members have update access. Unless there is a strong objection or better proposal the content of that page as it exists on April 5th will be sent to members-notify,subject to approval by Joe Brockmeier. - Sam Ruby > --Rich > > On Thu, 2022-03-10 at 10:00 -0500, Rich Bowen wrote: > > Problem: Members (and, more generally, committers) are less engaged > > with > > the larger Foundation than at any point in our history. Meanwhile, > > the > > mechanisms for getting more engaged (eg, the members mailing list) > > are a > > firehose of unrelated content that is very frustrating to the casual > > participant - even those who desire a deeper engagement - and, in > > practice, are completely off-putting. Committers, meanwhile, have no > > real avenue, outside of their project, for further engagement. > > > > I've been struggling with ways to address this for years, and they > > all > > tend to founder on the rocks of "People should just be doing X!" > > which, > > in each case, is true, but also dismissive and ultimately unhelpful. > > > > I would like to propose that we are more proactive about reaching out > > to > > our community in tiny, consumable bites, that hint at a larger feast > > that they're missing out on. > > > > Here's my proposal, but I cannot (and will not) tackle this alone, > > because that guarantees failure, which guaranteed less participation > > the > > next time we suggest something like this. > > > > Proposal/Brainstorming doc: https://hackmd.io/JaLaGy56T8qT3ODABLVswA > > > > It's an intentionally simple idea - a minimum viable idea, one might > > say. > > > > I want to know who's going to help make it a reality. Not > > particularly > > interested in "that's a great idea", as much as "I will help make it > > happen." > > > > This will involve engagement with Events, M&P, and Board, at a > > minimum, > > but over time we'd hopefully engage everyone at the Foundation in > > content creation. But, even then, I want to keep this tiny and > > consumable - content that you can absorb in 2-5 minutes, always with > > a > > "to get more engaged ..." call to action aspect to it. > > > > Come help me develop community. > > > > --Rich > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Tidelift
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 4:50 PM Ralph Goers wrote: > > Hello all, > > Recently the Logging Services PMC was approached by Tidelift offering to > provide monetary support either to the project or individual committers. To > obtain that sponsorship the project has to agree to the terms at > https://support.tidelift.com/hc/en-us/articles/4406309657876-Lifter-agreement. > It appears that Struts has accepted this already. Perusing the agreement, I see talk of payment, license, and trademark. So let's cover that, and the topic we want to cover, the Apache Way. Let's be welcoming and friendly, and focus more on what they need to do, rather than on what they must not do Outline: * So you want to pay a contributor? Great! If that is something you wish to do, do so directly with each contributor as this is not a service the ASF provides. Just make sure that each contributori is aware of each of the five points listed on The Apache Way page[1]. In particular, be aware that each individual contribution will be evaluated on its merits and require consensus before being accepted. * All code must be licensed only under the Apache Software License, with no additional conditions. Should an individual contributor become a committer, they will be required to sign an ICLA. You are welcome to sign a CCLA. * You are welcome to make nominative use of our trademarks. If you require anything more, see out Trademark Policy[2]. [1] https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/ [2] https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
[jira] [Closed] (COMDEV-327) Provide whimsy with realtime updates of reporter drafts
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-327?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ] Sam Ruby closed COMDEV-327. --- Resolution: Fixed Saves to reporter now results in a POST to the board agenda, which notifies each active client that an update is available. Each client then fetches the latest drafts and updates the display as needed. > Provide whimsy with realtime updates of reporter drafts > --- > > Key: COMDEV-327 > URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-327 > Project: Community Development > Issue Type: New Feature > Components: Reporter Tool > Reporter: Sam Ruby >Priority: Minor > > The whimsy board agenda tool recently was updated to show draft reports saved > by the reporter wizard. Currently, the data shown may be slightly stale and > will not update immediately upon a new draft being saved. > This could be addressed by having rapp.drafts.save post the results of > rapp.drafts.forgotten to > [https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/json/reporter] on every change. > Should the post fail, perhaps log it, but no other action needs to be taken. > It is also OK if the post contains drafts unrelated to the one that was > changed. > -- This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA (v7.6.14#76016) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
[jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-327) Provide whimsy with realtime updates of reporter drafts
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-327?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=16905040#comment-16905040 ] Sam Ruby commented on COMDEV-327: - Yes; whatever you post will be merged with (using Ruby's equivalent of Python 3.5's dict1.update(dict2)) the current state, so it is OK if you post the full list of projects, the list of projects for which the poster is a member of the PMC, or simply the one project that was updated at this time. > Provide whimsy with realtime updates of reporter drafts > --- > > Key: COMDEV-327 > URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-327 > Project: Community Development > Issue Type: New Feature > Components: Reporter Tool >Reporter: Sam Ruby >Priority: Minor > > The whimsy board agenda tool recently was updated to show draft reports saved > by the reporter wizard. Currently, the data shown may be slightly stale and > will not update immediately upon a new draft being saved. > This could be addressed by having rapp.drafts.save post the results of > rapp.drafts.forgotten to > [https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/json/reporter] on every change. > Should the post fail, perhaps log it, but no other action needs to be taken. > It is also OK if the post contains drafts unrelated to the one that was > changed. > -- This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA (v7.6.14#76016) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
[jira] [Created] (COMDEV-327) Provide whimsy with realtime updates of reporter drafts
Sam Ruby created COMDEV-327: --- Summary: Provide whimsy with realtime updates of reporter drafts Key: COMDEV-327 URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-327 Project: Community Development Issue Type: New Feature Components: Reporter Tool Reporter: Sam Ruby The whimsy board agenda tool recently was updated to show draft reports saved by the reporter wizard. Currently, the data shown may be slightly stale and will not update immediately upon a new draft being saved. This could be addressed by having rapp.drafts.save post the results of rapp.drafts.forgotten to [https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/json/reporter] on every change. Should the post fail, perhaps log it, but no other action needs to be taken. It is also OK if the post contains drafts unrelated to the one that was changed. -- This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA (v7.6.14#76016) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: New board report wizard, feedback welcome!
Now that posting of reports is (mostly?) working, possible future enhancement. Currently, the wizard is targeting initial development of the report, possibly collaboratively. However, once posted, you need to use either the whimsy board agenda tool or svn directly to make updates, and to see and respond to comments. If you fetch the board agenda in json format, you can get the current posted report, any comments that have been entered to date, and a digest. Examples: https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/2019-08-21.json https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/2019-07-17.json If you post an updated report and include the previous digest, and the digest matches the current digest, then the board agenda tool will replace the report. The reporter tool could then become the "go to" place for PMC members (including non chairs and non ASF members) to view and interact with the board. I could even open up the posting of comments endpoint for PMC members to add their own comments to their own report. Further down the road, a similar tool could be developed for podlings. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: New board report wizard, feedback welcome!
On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 12:00 PM Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > On 8/1/2019 11:32 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: > > On 8/1/19 6:23 PM, Joan Touzet wrote: > >> > >> > >> I've seen wizards that would present all the info on a single page, but > >> collapse each section as it loses focus / scroll is done / "next" button > >> is pressed. Users could manually expand each section, or press a "Expand > >> all sections" button to keep everything visible at once? > >> > > Still at the early stages (mostly, I am missing feedback from directors > > on what the various sections could/should contain so I can provide > > snippets), but.. take a look at: > > https://reporter.apache.org/wizard/unified.html (force a refresh to get > > the fresh JS/CSS please, things change!) > > > > This is a unified editor with just one big textarea for the report, > > using some HTML hoodoo to figure out where in the report you are > > currently looking/editing and provide you with assistance in the right > > hand panel in turn. The end compiler/checker is also more helpful now > > and allows for custom sections (permitted they follow the "## Section:" > > syntax). > > > > Hope this is more along the lines y'all were thinking of :) > > Should work with both FF, Chrome and Safari, BUT there is a bug in > > current FireFox that ruins the undo/redo when you access size dimensions > > in a textarea...so, beware. > > I like it! > > Are the requirements for at least X characters in some sections a board > requirement? I dislike those because they sometimes force writing of > meaningless filler just to get to the required count. Will reporter warn if there are lines which go beyond column 80? And if so, will it assist with reflowing? If it helps, look for a static text method in class Flow in the following script: https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/app.js - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: New board report wizard, feedback welcome!
On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 3:34 PM Daniel Gruno wrote: > > Hi folks, > I've been working on a new board report tool to help address some of the > most common issues with the current tool (mainly that it favors > auto-inserted metrics over the story and doesn't guide people very well) > and have thus far come up with this new wizard: > > https://reporter.apache.org/wizard/ > > It's open to all committers to review, though easiest if you're on a PMC > of some sort. There are some ideas being brewed, and some features that > aren't complete (such as the draft/publish buttons and additional helper > text). > > I'd like people to take a look, and provide some feedback. I am stringly > contemplating either replacing the existing reporter tool with this (but > keeping the getjson.py which powers both), or a link from the old to the > new. > > Anyway, feedback is most welcome! > Things will probably change as we go along and feedback comes in. Suggestion: show the people who are contributing to the report comments that were made against previous reports. The whimsy board agenda tool makes these comments available at https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/json/historical-comments (currently only available to officers and members, but comments on a specific report should be fine to share with members of the PMC in question). - Sam Ruby > With regards, > Daniel. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Why does the ASF not pay for development?
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 3:56 PM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > Just a FYI that we mention the what here: > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/#other > > but we don't go into a lot of detail regarding the why :) Good catch! I looked hard for that statement and didn't find it. - Sam Ruby > > On Jun 20, 2019, at 12:27 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: > > > > Ross, could you relay this to ComDev? It seems that putting some version of > > your writeup under the community pages would be useful, since this is > > moving from outside of D&I's area and more of a community and policy issue, > > in general. In order to make this easier, I've cc'ed dev@community on this. > > > > Cheers! > > > > On 2019/06/20 07:41:48, Ross Gardler wrote: > >> "The mission of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) is to provide > >> software for the public good. We do this by providing services and support > >> for many like-minded software project communities consisting of > >> individuals who choose to participate in ASF activities."> > >> > >> We pay for operational activities in order to provide "services and > >> support for many like-minded software project communities".> > >> > >> We don't pay for software development in our projects because our > >> "software project communities consist of individuals who choose to > >> participate in ASF activities." Paying people to produce the software is > >> not creating communities of people who choose, but rather (in part) > >> people paid by us to be present. This can result in the ASF deciding which > >> projects win, rather than the market doing so (as happens when external > >> companies pay for development) . By putting ourselves in a position of > >> influence we can no longer be independent of market forces and thus it > >> becomes very hard to be vendor neutral. A lack of vendor neutrality makes > >> it difficult to "provide software for the public good".> > >> > >> Of course an argument can be made that paying for software development to > >> make our operations more efficient is acceptable. I believe it is. We > >> already do it since infra staff write software for us, regularly. Others > >> are concerned about this being a slippery slope to paying for software > >> more generally.> > >> > >> Ross> > >> > >> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>> > >> > >> > > >> From: Awasum Yannick > > >> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 12:21:01 AM> > >> To: d...@diversity.apache.org> > >> Subject: Why does the ASF not pay for development?> > >> > >> Hi all,> > >> > >> Why does the foundation not pay for development?> > >> > >> Why do they pay for operations?> > >> > >> Why do they pay for accounting?> > >> > >> What argument lead to this core principles?> > >> > >> I want to understand as am new to the Apache way.> > >> > >> I know it might be taking us back or might even be the wrong list. Just> > >> help me understand.> > >> > >> Thanks.> > >> Awasum> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [Discuss] Attributing contributions to commercial vendors investing in projects
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 12:02 PM Alex Harui wrote: > > I’m sorry, I do not understand these responses. I did not mention > advertising, only attribution. I did not mention paying to get listed in > the NOTICE. These negative assumptions discourage my motivation to > contribute to these kinds of discussions. > > It is my understanding that the employer of a committer almost always holds > copyright of the code contributed by that committer. I do not see anything > in the linked license that prohibits anyone from adding their copyright to > NOTICE because I thought a copyright was a legal notice. And plenty of > companies that donated the original code are already in NOTICE files. > > Please educate me. I'm glad to provide education. See http://www.apache.org/dev/licensing-howto.html#mod-notice This short section starts with "NOTICE is reserved for a certain subset of legally required notifications", and ends with "Do not add anything to NOTICE which is not legally required.". I believe that this section is clear, but if you have any questions on the content of this page, I'd encourage you to bring them up on legal-disc...@apache.org. > Thanks, > -Alex - Sam Ruby > On 4/19/19, 6:15 AM, "Sam Ruby" wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > > > > On Apr 19, 2019, at 1:06 AM, Alex Harui <mailto:aha...@adobe.com.INVALID>> wrote: > > > > > > Lots of NOTICE files give attribution to the pre-Apache project > owner. Why not let other companies add their logo to NOTICE if it is > important to them? > > > > NOTICE has a specific reason for existence as the place where such > notices and information that MUST be delivered to the end-user is placed. > It's not designed as a catch-all for any "advertising" that someone would > like people to see :) > > Just adding a citation to back up Jim's point. See section 4d of the > Apache License: > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org%2Flicenses%2FLICENSE-2.0&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7C7cb64661c0db4c500f4008d6c4c90dcb%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636912765171411465&sdata=uJR2ccKwN3JWGJpcC%2Fxq7jNVWy9EernG%2BV9GCWJoCVc%3D&reserved=0 > > - Sam Ruby > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [Discuss] Attributing contributions to commercial vendors investing in projects
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > > On Apr 19, 2019, at 1:06 AM, Alex Harui > <mailto:aha...@adobe.com.INVALID>> wrote: > > > > Lots of NOTICE files give attribution to the pre-Apache project owner. Why > > not let other companies add their logo to NOTICE if it is important to them? > > NOTICE has a specific reason for existence as the place where such notices > and information that MUST be delivered to the end-user is placed. It's not > designed as a catch-all for any "advertising" that someone would like people > to see :) Just adding a citation to back up Jim's point. See section 4d of the Apache License: https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [Discuss] Attributing contributions to commercial vendors investing in projects
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:54 PM Joan Touzet wrote: > > On 2019-04-17 9:04 p.m., Griselda Cuevas wrote: [snip] > > > Thank you! > > And thank you for raising something that I've been too nervous to bring > up on my own. Yes, thank you Gris for bringing this up. And also thank you Joan for being willing to say out loud "And thank you for raising something that I've been too nervous to bring up on my own." That takes courage. I still very much feel that "there be dragons" down the path of acknowledging corporate involvement; but at the end of the day, I would much rather give you, Gris, and others a chance to prove me wrong than to discourage you or even worse - drive any of you away. The people here who proudly are grey beards here got where we are by proving others that came before us wrong. Sometimes we forget that fact. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [Discuss] Attributing contributions to commercial vendors investing in projects
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:05 PM Sam Ruby wrote: > > This comes up frequently, and the end result of the discussion > generally is along the lines of: > at most, that data should be taken as an indicator suggesting when > deeper investigation is warranted. Even then, it should be something Significant typo/thinko. The above should read "shoudn't be" > that should be a trigger for an investigation. It should be fishy > behavior that triggers an investigation. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [Discuss] Attributing contributions to commercial vendors investing in projects
have to > balance this against the need for projects to have the assurances that > their PMC is acting neutrally. Right now, I think the only escalation > path is for the project to go to the Board if they feel the PMC is > railroading a project away from its best interests...and I'm still not > sure that doesn't put an unnecessarily high barrier in those > contributors' way. It's not perfect, and in the few times that it has occurred it has been quite messy, but you are correct that that is the escalation path. Not wanting to embarrass people (including myself when I inevitably mis-remember an important detail of a messy resolution), I'll refrain from commenting further. But this would make a good topic of conversation over one's choice of beverages... > But I digress. Thank you for doing so! - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [Discuss] Attributing contributions to commercial vendors investing in projects
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:17 PM Shane Curcuru wrote: > > Rich Bowen wrote on 4/17/19 3:08 PM: > > By policy and long-standing tradition, no. Companies do not participate > > in projects. Individuals participate in projects. > > > > It's possible I misunderstand the question, but this is something we > > have always discouraged. > I think it's a bigger question than that, but in general I'd also be > cautious. More particularly, any new suggested practices for PMCs > should be reviewed against existing documentation: > > https://community.apache.org/projectIndependence > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking Another link to add: https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html Specifically: > We firmly believe in hats. Your role at the ASF is one assigned to you > personally, and is bestowed on you by your peers. It is not tied to your job > or current employer or company. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee discussion call
[moving comdev back to bcc] On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:06 AM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > > On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski wrote: > >> > >> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development > >> needs to be done on list. > > > > Not all committees operate along the lines of development. > > Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups, > > hackathons, etc. > > > > To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the > > development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF; > > development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to > > the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate. > > > > Umm a "call/videocall to discuss the proposal details to the board." > certainly sounds like a "tangible product" to me. > > You are free to disagree. I think doing so would be a mistake. As I said, this has evolved in ways differently than I would have expected. My email to Griselda, copying Ross was as follows: >> Perhaps we should "meet" via call/video to discuss next steps? I'm >> concerned with all the various ways this organization has to discourage >> such efforts that it will eventually stall. >> >> I'm on the east coast, and have plenty of afternoon (my time) slots >> available tomorrow (Wednesday) and Thursday. I'm not available Friday. >> If that doesn't work out, we can shoot for next week. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee discussion call
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development > needs to be done on list. Not all committees operate along the lines of development. Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups, hackathons, etc. To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF; development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate. > I think (I could be wrong) Sam's suggestion regarding a call > was to discuss options on the effort (eg: president's cmmt, etc...) > and not about the actual "details" of the ins and outs. Close, but this has rapidly evolved in a different direction from what I originally requested. A president's committee is one of the options being explored, and such would have a VP, and wanted an opportunity to discuss this with Griselda (schedule permitting, including Ross). Not to plot any diabolical schemes, but to set expectations and to make myself available for questions. Should others be interested, I'd do the same with them. If there is interest in an initial call, or even a regular call (and yes, some committees do that too), we should allow such to happen, as long as the relevant portions of the meeting relating to development efforts is brought back to the list. > Discussing the proposal details of the effort should definitely be done > on list. Yes, a call may help things happen more "quickly" but that > should not be the prime or main consideration... we baseline > mailing lists for all development (and, as I said, this *is* development) > for a very clear reason. The idea of working out details regarding > Diversity and *Inclusion* using a method that for sure *excludes* > people is irony writ large. Again, while there are part of this effort which undoubtedly will be development, other parts may not be. Meetings with people from other organizations in similar efforts will likely occur. Down the road, there may be vendor selection activities. > CCing diversity@ so the thread can move there. Thanks! I've moved comdev to bcc. - Sam Ruby > > On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Griselda Cuevas wrote: > > > > Sam suggested a call, so that's why I initiated. > > > > > > I think a call will help work out quickly a document we can socialize in > > the mailing list. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:27 PM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > > >> Can I recommend instead of a call, using the newly created > >> mailing list... In general, Apache tries to avoid the use of > >> sync communication medium except when absolutely required. > >> > >> I think that esp for such a topic as D&I, starting the effort off > >> using a method that inherently disenfranchises people may > >> not be the wisest 1st step :) > >> > >> Cheers! > >> > >>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Griselda Cuevas > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi everyone, > >>> > >>> Following up the original thread that sparked the creation of a > >> Diversity & > >>> Inclusion committee in the ASF [1], I'm coordinating a call/videocall to > >>> discuss the proposal details to the board. > >>> > >>> *Action by April 5th, 2019 @ midnight PST* > >>> If you're interested in being part of the committee and shaping the > >> request > >>> to the board, add your availability in this Doodle*: > >>> https://doodle.com/poll/52cce5zh77avryri > >>> > >>> *If you don't know how to use Doodle, read this: > >>> https://help.doodle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012150073 > >>> > >>> [1] > >>> > >> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
Let's you and I find some time to chat, possibly with ross and others, and we can bring a proposal back to the list. On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 12:44 PM Griselda Cuevas wrote: > +1 to divers...@apache.org > > I want to move forward on creating a president's committee. How do I do > that? > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 9:36 AM Daniel Gruno wrote: > > > On 02/04/2019 11.34, Joan Touzet wrote: > > > Daniel said: > > >> On 02/04/2019 11.29, Daniel Gruno wrote: > > >>> On 02/04/2019 11.26, Joan Touzet wrote: > > Trying to cut through the bikeshedding: > > > > Daniel Gruno said: > > > I'd recommend a separate mailing list (to provide focus) and a > > > JIRA, > > > perhaps some place to put documents (either within the comdev svn > > > area, > > > or somewhere else if spun off), and then...just get to work :) > > > > This is what Griselda proposed as well (yes, and other things). > > > > Can we get these now (under ComDev) and move them later when the > > president's committee is approved? (And, if not, they can stay > > under > > ComDev)? > > >>> > > >>> Yes, we can request them right now (within 3 hours), we just need > > >>> to > > >>> pick a name for the list (gimme some suggestions!) - and probably > > >>> just > > >>> pick the same name for a sub dir of comdev's svn. the JIRA instance > > >>> is > > >>> already requested via a ticket. > > >> > > >> perhaps we should just make divers...@apache.org and get started > > >> there? > > >> the advantage being that it's not tied to a project, so whatever we > > >> end > > >> up with, it wouldn't affect the list. > > > > > > Well, we have the JIRA already: > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/DI/summary > > > > > > divers...@apache.org works for me; if the president's committee > doesn't > > > get approved, would we have any pressure to move that to > > > diversity@community.a.o instead? > > > > No, not really :) there's plenty of precedence for keeping it. > > Assuming this would be a public list (feedback??), I can get it created > > ASAP. > > > > > > > > -Joan > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > >
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 10:48 AM Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 3:53 PM Rich Bowen wrote: > > ...In the spirit of small reversible steps, starting as a ComDev > > initiative, and then, if needed, graduating to its own entity later?... > > Good point, that's what I was trying to say, but better said ;-) My feeling is that it will die here, but I recognize that the burden of proof is on those that wish to propose that Diversity and Inclusion merits its own place in the organizational structure. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 3:32 AM Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > We've had problems in the past with lists becoming orphaned after some > time because they didn't clearly belong to one of our PMCs. My recommendation at this time is that it becomes a committee, complete with requirements to produce either monthly or quarterly board reports. One such mechanism is that it becomes a PMC. Another is that it becomes a president's committee. There are early talks about this group having a budget and hiring a vendor. The organizational structure chosen should be one that enables that. My initial thoughts are that this be modeled after Brand Management - with each PMC ultimately being responsible for Diversity and Inclusion; the board being the only policing agency, and with a central group responsible for education, documentation, and perhaps a select number of enumerated tasks. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 5:33 PM Griselda Cuevas wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 17:38, Sam Ruby wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:25 PM Griselda Cuevas > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks everyone for the encouragement and recognition. > > > > > > I'm happy to work on the Jira board this weekend. Can I just start a new > > > one on my personal account and add people to it? or does someone need to > > > create it under an Apache account? - If the later, can someone create it > > > and give me admin access? > > > > No private JIRA. Needs to be ASF hosted. It is a simple request to > > the infra team, and yes, you can have admin access. > > > > Just filed a Jira against Infra requesting the board. > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18147 > > > > > I will then populate it with the initial structure and will seed it with > > > components and the deliverables I outlined. I will add the people who > > > indicated interest so they can select where they want to contribute. > > > > > > In terms of comm channels, can we also create a slack channel? > > > > Slack channels tend to disadvantage people who can't be available at a > > given time (either due to other commitments or time zones). We use it > > in infra for time sensitive coordination, but my sense is that the D&I > > work should be done in a more... dare I say it... inclusive manner > > using mailing lists and JIRA and the like. > > > > Agree. Let's start with the Jira & mailing list. Could you help with > creating the diversity & inclusion mailing list? What would you like for the name of the list? divers...@apache.org? da...@pache.org? d...@apache.org? If you pick a name, you can request this yourself by going to: https://selfserve.apache.org/mail.html You can make the basename either community.apache.org or apache.org. I'd suggest the latter. - Sam Ruby > > > // I will comment on Kenn's point in a separate note, he outlined great > > > points for us to put into an overall D&I strategy > > > > > > Thanks everyone! > > > > And you deserve thanks for volunteering! > > > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 16:51, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > > > > > > I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal, > > > > which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin! > > > > > > > > I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) > > of > > > > the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies > > for > > > > redundancy with the links that Justin shared. > > > > > > > > 1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct > > > > a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation > > > > > > > > 2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders > > > > a. have a D&I board to advance initiatives surrounding D&I > > > > b. and a D&I contribution team to help underrepresented people > > > > contribute to the Drupal codebase > > > > c. address D&I in values: "We believe that the Drupal project > > benefits > > > > from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming > > and > > > > inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in > > our > > > > workplaces” > > > > > > > > 3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I > > > > think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base) > > > > > > > > 4. How private companies can promote open source diversity > > > > a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that > > is > > > > not afforded to underrepresented people > > > > b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source > > > > technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to > > contribute to > > > > the projects the company uses > > > > > > > > It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the > > Drupal > > > > D&I board and also the Drupal D&I contribution team. > > > > > > > > Kenn > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean < > > jus...@classsoftware.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > &
Re: on "meritocracy"
Top posting. "you're on the sidelines; the President said so". None of the quotes you provided were my words, nor do they support the claim that I made that statement. I'm pleased that we agree on Griselda's plan. - Sam Ruby On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 5:23 PM Wade Chandler wrote: > > > > On Mar 30, 2019, at 3:37 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > > > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 2:57 PM Wade Chandler > > wrote: > >> > >> And mine was there is a line in this thread attacking the way a lot of very > >> inclusive people work here, and that line is like "your points have no > >> merit, but we'll make changes and drive them, that affect the whole org, > >> while using meritocracy while saying it is bad at lower levels", and in > >> this case it is everyone's concern even if they are not working on the > >> specific thing you are, because it impacts the whole/everyone working on > >> something at Apache, and is also directly related to my point on the > >> possibility to exist for overreach and overreaction considering that. > >> > >> Folks chose to throw around weight with various phrases such as "because > >> the President" and "policing". Where is the plan for what this looks like > >> given these mandates? > > > > Slow down. It is impossible to keep up with the false accusations. > > > > Perhaps it starts with something as simple as: > > >> > >>> Given you previously mentioned companies and performance reviews etc; > >>> I will suggest part of the problem in those contexts are those > >>> reviews are often measuring the wrong things, and not measuring the > >>> drivers of the hierarchy of work in which most workers actually > >>> exist within an organization; they please the street though. > >> > >> To me, this reads as you saying "We're promoting women and minorities > >> just because they look good for our D&I numbers, not because they have > >> the skillsets required." Was that what you really intended to say? > >> If so that's borderline offensive, but as you say, irrelevant to > >> our situation at Apache - so why bring it up? I'm trying to assume > >> good faith on your part, but finding it hard to do so. > > Which was actually in response to a statement how reviews contradict > promotions and upward mobility. I was suggesting the reviews themselves are > often out of touch with the managers at the ground level, and often those > people are directly responsible for anything bigger than cost of living > adjustments to compensation and not the reviews. I certainly wasn’t saying > anything negative about women and minorities, but OK. > > Or, what I was specifically responding to for which you replied; I was > directly accused for appropriating the language of the marginalized as a way > to personally negatively reflect on me after I had tried to move on from the > thread for some time. > > > > From your previous email " you're on the sidelines; the President said > > so"... to which I can only respond [citation needed]. > > > > From this thread: some of what I’m referencing: > > In relation to low-level projects and policing > > >> Not only do the outbound communication need to improve, but more > >> importantly the oversight and policing needs to improve. > > and > > >> This means that the policies can be created at Foundation level, and can be > >> policed (by the Board, and/or through delegation by a specific office). If > >> the > >> highest body of the Foundation established a strict(er) policy on 'merit > >> awarding’ > >> and/or 'Diversity & Inclusion' then it is obliged, with regards to these > >> policies, to: > > > President and the Board > > >> I have long since stopped caring about *persuading* our skeptic members > >> about the need to do this work. They're not going to help anyways, why > >> bother? > >> And we already have the full support of the President and the Board on > >> this, > >> so they can't interfere in any meaningful way. > > > Don’t people who are not skeptics, but are concerned about what that work is > have some right to ask about it? Is it interfering to ask for the information > to be enumerated in a place to make it clear and concise or otherwise be > pointed to where it has already happened? I’m assuming this work will have > impacts on everyone at Apache, not just those “doing
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 2:57 PM Wade Chandler wrote: > > And mine was there is a line in this thread attacking the way a lot of very > inclusive people work here, and that line is like "your points have no > merit, but we'll make changes and drive them, that affect the whole org, > while using meritocracy while saying it is bad at lower levels", and in > this case it is everyone's concern even if they are not working on the > specific thing you are, because it impacts the whole/everyone working on > something at Apache, and is also directly related to my point on the > possibility to exist for overreach and overreaction considering that. > > Folks chose to throw around weight with various phrases such as "because > the President" and "policing". Where is the plan for what this looks like > given these mandates? Slow down. It is impossible to keep up with the false accusations. >From your previous email " you're on the sidelines; the President said so"... to which I can only respond [citation needed]. If you want to react to an actual plan, I welcome your feedback on the following: https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a5e7e30fad3e89547db554cf64b10d33611d4401356590bddf94b918@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E If you want to build your own plan to, feel free to do so. At the present time I can say that the link above is a plan that I can support. It doesn't start out with (or even mention) policing. It describes a plan that involves gathering data, analyzing results, and making recommendations. Nor does saying that I support and can see the ASF approving such a plan mean that we aren't capable of evaluating and supporting other plans. If you continue to want to attack proposals that absolutely nobody has made, I encourage you to do so elsewhere. > Wade - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on "meritocracy")
On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 1:33 PM Eric Covener wrote: > > > I'm not going to (intentionally) actively discriminate for or against > > anyone. But I will protect your right, as an individual, to do so as long > > as you protect my right to help you achieve the > > right balance in our broader communities by stamping out the existence of > > any discrimination (positive or negative). > > Community over code > > How do you square this with the code of conduct? In my reading, unless > the discrimination threaded some extremely fine needle, it would be in > violation and a good argument could be made for the defense of it > being in violation as well. My sense is that introducing the term discrimination into the discussion taints it. My way of looking at it is that we don't want anybody to feel unwelcome here, and yet clearly there are individuals who don't feel welcome here, and enough of them that we can determine broad patterns. An analogy that won't make sense at first: the board votes pretty much every month to create a new PMC, and in most cases without any intention of personally participating in that PMC. I'm a native English speaker. If a group of people wanted to get together to figure out a way to attract more people who either don't speak English or don't speak English well, I'd support them. This is an effort that I would not necessarily be able to help with, but I will help them organize. I've lived my whole life in Northern America. If a group of people want to get together to figure out how to attract more people from west Africa or east Asia, I'd support them. A non-ASF code example: some work on Kubernetes to bring order to the cloud. Recently, some people have been working on Kubernetes to make this work on IOT/Edge devices. That may not be a use case every member of the first set of people are interested in, but that simply means that those that aren't interested simply don't participate. Recapping: identify a pattern in the data where a group of people are (presumably inadvertently due to our collective ineptness) made to feel unwelcome, create a proposal to address that, build consensus around that proposal, and then execute on it. If this does not result in an effort to attract a specific demographic, that's because either there isn't demonstrably a problem, or we haven't found a proposal that would address that problem. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 9:33 AM Jim Jagielski wrote: > > I would ask that this goes both ways... I think in order to get buy-in > from everyone, instead of those who may not agree with some premise, > our reaction should not be "you are wrong; you just can't see it. So STFU." > Instead, help educate them that there actually is a problem. My experience, like Ross's is that doing such rarely ends well. But I'll give it a try. Let's see how it goes. Imagine you are one of a few women in a room full of men. You are uncertain as to whether you belong or are welcome. A highly respected and accomplished man makes the following statement: "Merit has nothing to do with gender, or race, or religion, or what genitalia one has or is attracted to. If your idea of what constitutes merit is based on any of these, then that's a f'ed up definition of merit. That means it's a problem w/ how merit is defined, and not meritocracy per se." For clarity: this is not a question as to whether the statement is correct or whether the intent is correct. This is a question as to whether you feel that would make this hypothetical woman feel more welcome or less welcome. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:25 PM Griselda Cuevas wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the encouragement and recognition. > > I'm happy to work on the Jira board this weekend. Can I just start a new > one on my personal account and add people to it? or does someone need to > create it under an Apache account? - If the later, can someone create it > and give me admin access? No private JIRA. Needs to be ASF hosted. It is a simple request to the infra team, and yes, you can have admin access. > I will then populate it with the initial structure and will seed it with > components and the deliverables I outlined. I will add the people who > indicated interest so they can select where they want to contribute. > > In terms of comm channels, can we also create a slack channel? Slack channels tend to disadvantage people who can't be available at a given time (either due to other commitments or time zones). We use it in infra for time sensitive coordination, but my sense is that the D&I work should be done in a more... dare I say it... inclusive manner using mailing lists and JIRA and the like. > // I will comment on Kenn's point in a separate note, he outlined great > points for us to put into an overall D&I strategy > > Thanks everyone! And you deserve thanks for volunteering! - Sam Ruby > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 16:51, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > > I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal, > > which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin! > > > > I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) of > > the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies for > > redundancy with the links that Justin shared. > > > > 1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct > > a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation > > > > 2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders > > a. have a D&I board to advance initiatives surrounding D&I > > b. and a D&I contribution team to help underrepresented people > > contribute to the Drupal codebase > > c. address D&I in values: "We believe that the Drupal project benefits > > from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming and > > inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in our > > workplaces” > > > > 3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I > > think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base) > > > > 4. How private companies can promote open source diversity > > a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that is > > not afforded to underrepresented people > > b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source > > technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to contribute to > > the projects the company uses > > > > It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the Drupal > > D&I board and also the Drupal D&I contribution team. > > > > Kenn > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean > > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other > > > foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked > > for > > > them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it > > > includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d > > > also note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct) > > but > > > perhaps shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal > > Diversity & > > > Inclusion team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has among other > > > things guide on moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is > > > different to Drupal and some of those tings may not fit but it would be > > > useful I think to at least consider them. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Justin > > > > > > 1. > > > > > https://angel.co/blog/drupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-community > > > 2. > > > > > https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/statement-of-values > > > 3. > > > > > https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/drupal-diversity-inclusion-participation-moderation-1 > > > 4. > > > > > https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/participation-moderation-guidelines/participant-guidelines > > > 5. https://www.drupal.org/project/diversity > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 12:29 PM Griselda Cuevas wrote: > > Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list [snip] > If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts. I'm impressed with the detail, and with the speed with which you provided it. And I very much like the idea of a JIRA board. My experience is that it is easier to keep discussions on topic in JIRA than on a mailing list. If we are going to pursue a President's committee, a post on operati...@apache.org would be in order. Included in that post would be a list of people who have volunteered to date and a call for volunteers. It turns out that it is budget time (I actually should have started the process already), and I realize that it is premature to ask for hard numbers, but should you have ballpark numbers that we can use as placeholders in the budget, that would be appreciated. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas wrote: > > Another thing we should consider is creating a D&I council, PMC, working > group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it. > > Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list. Sometimes I > struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel like > I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they > start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm > offering to lead... so how could I do it? TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you make it happen. Longer answer: Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the president, or it could be something that reports to the board. The third option requires a board resolution. The middle option is less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board resolution would be prepared. No board interaction is required for the first option, though a notification in the next board report would be in order. Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list. What this will be is a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get together and make it happen. I will caution you that often times, those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes a place to ideas go to die. And I will say that similar efforts have died this way in the past. Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code) and deliverables (releases). This helps keep things focused. Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity. We need to fix that. So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the production of those work products, I am prepared to support the creation of an officer and committee responsible. I don't believe that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross and I both clearly are interested in making this work. This leads me to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee. Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue). The schedule is here: https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend shooting for May. And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: on "meritocracy"
Not directly a response to the below, but very much related to it. If you go to a Node.js conference these days, the very first thing you do is pick up a badge. When you do, they ask you to consider putting on a sticker containing your preferred pronouns. Shortly thereafter you realize that the conference is qualitatively different in terms of inclusion - gender isn't quite a 50/50 split, but I did find myself on more than one occasion seated surrounded by women - north, south, east, west. There also are talks, panels, open discussions on diversity. There also are noticeably more people with different gender orientations, people of color, etc. Not just in the audience, but also on the stage. When people (generally inadvertent) make a remark that could be considered non-inclusive on a node mailing list, they are generally called on it (and quickly), and promptly apologize, and the apology is promptly accepted. If there are any actions that need to be taken, they are identified and acted upon. Where we, the ASF, are and continue to be is abnormal. The difference from industry norms is statistically significant. And durable. When such topics come up here, the response is contentious and defensive, long winded, and generally without resolution. Yes, you will find women at ASF conferences. Look, there are two over there, and one more on the other side. OK, so there may be some talks where there are more, but there are also some talks where there are less. There must be something that we are doing - or not doing - which is causing all of this. What saddens me is that I don't know what to suggest. Enumerating what we are doing (such as Rich did below) is a good start. But also acknowledging that we are somehow the cause if it - either though action or inaction - is also a necessary first step. - Sam Ruby On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:48 PM Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > On 3/28/19 11:58 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > > > I find it sad that there are (board) members who keep saying that the > > situation must improve (because there are problems regarding Diversity and > > Inclusion), but when it comes to where it needs to improve (in the projects > > mostly) they also keep saying (here and other threads also in other fora in > > the past) that there is nothing to be done from the Foundation downwards to > > the projects because 'the projects are independent'. > > I am not aware of any board members who have said that. Unless you're > construing my comment in that light. Because that is most definitely not > what I said. > > The Foundation does do stuff "downwards to the projects." We have, in > fact, established a PMC, named "Community Development" which has that as > its charter. > > Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE MONTH, there is at least one (and usually > several) response to a project report, encouraging them to more actively > pursue new committers, lower their bar to entry, actively mentor new > contributors, and so on. > > > > > In my book there is where the view-points of those persons go of in wrong > > directions. Yes, projects are expected to operate independently from > > outside influence. But they can not operate independently from the > > organisation they reside under. In a page (See [1]) of the ASF it is stated > > that 'the board delegates the technical direction of all projects to each > > PMC', but 'are expected to follow corporate policies'. This means that the > > policies can be created at Foundation level, and can be policed (by the > > Board, and/or through delegation by a specific office). If the highest body > > of the Foundation established a strict(er) policy on 'merit awarding' > > and/or 'Diversity & Inclusion' then it is obliged, with regards to these > > policies, to: > > > > 1. ensure that each of the lower level organisational units (OUs like > > projects/offices/departments, etc.) acknowledge and apply such policies > > Yes, we do that. Daily on board@ and monthly in the board meeting. > > > 2. regularly (and independently of the projects and offices) assess the > > adherence to (or compliance with) the policies > > Yes, we do that. Projects report quarterly to the board, and at that > time we review their performance with respect to those policies. > > > 3. actively implement corrective measures when an OU fails to adhere to > > or comply with such policy. > > Yes, we do that too. > > > Mark suggested in a posting earlier that there is something called the D&I > > team that could be tasked with gathering advice from domain experts, and > > advise the President/Board on how to improve this situation. But i
Re: on "meritocracy"
I fear that we have lost the original point made my Naomi. In other circles, I have found people openly mocking the ASF as a "mirror-tocracy" where we recognize merit only in people that look like us. Whether we agree with that or not, we have to accept that that is a perception held by a non-trivial percent of the population. If we truly were blind to sexuality, race, gender, age, etc., then one would expect our ratios on these measurements to match the general population, or at least industry norms. Sadly, this is not the case. I am concerned that stressing the "negatives" would be seen as incredibly tone deaf. - Sam Ruby On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:09 AM Henk P. Penning wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2019, Shane Curcuru wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 12:00:20 + > > From: Shane Curcuru > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > Subject: Re: on "meritocracy" > > > > Henk P. Penning wrote on 3/24/19 1:29 PM: > > ...snip... > >> When using the word 'Meritocracy', is is important to > >> explain on which merits the meritocracy is based : > >> -- community building > >> -- software construction > >> -- whatever > >Most definitions of 'Meritocracy' also mention the 'merits' >that are /NOT/ important ; like sexuality, race, gender, age, >or wealth ; also 'education', 'social status', 'achievements >outside ASF' [pardon my English] etc. > >These 'negatives' are as important as the 'positives', >when we define what our 'meritocracy' is. > >-- Perhaps these negatives could added (more) upfront in > http://theapacheway.com/merit/ > >Groeten, > >Henk Penning > > _ > Henk P. Penning, ICT-beta R Uithof MG-403_/ \_ > Faculty of Science, Utrecht UniversityT +31 30 253 4106 / \_/ \ > Leuvenlaan 4, 3584CE Utrecht, NL F +31 30 253 4553 \_/ \_/ > http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~penni101/ M penn...@uu.nl \_/ > > > This is the main issue, and one where the traditional ASF usage of > > "merit" is subtly different than the dictionary definition: > > > > https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/merit > > > > The ASF meaning of "merit*" is about work done, not characteristics: > > > > "Within the Apache Way, 'your merit' is always about the work you do, > > and never about you as an individual. Many newcomers see this at odds > > with common conceptions of someone’s merit meaning their character, > > their behaviors, their abilities, and past actions." > > > > http://theapacheway.com/merit/ > > > > I agree we need to improve our public presence to better explain "how we > > value contributions" (i.e. our meritocracy meaning), since the commonly > > understood definition out in the world is different from this. But my > > brain is really tired this month about real life, and the best word I > > can come up with is "work-ocracy". which is pretty clumsy. 8-) > > > > -- > > > > - Shane > > Director & Member > > The Apache Software Foundation > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [VOLUNTEERS NEEDED] for Apache Booth at All Things Open
Still no swag box. - Sam Ruby On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Missy Warnkin wrote: > Yes, there is a medium-sized swag box. 8x10x8 10 lbs. > I'll contact the coordinator, let me know if you find it. Is it under the > table? > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Original message From: Shane Curcuru > Date: 10/22/17 6:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: > Re: [VOLUNTEERS NEEDED] for Apache Booth at All Things Open > The giant banner, stand-up banner, and the white table skirt are setup > and look great (Sam led the charge). We have a good spot, too. > > I just checked, and there are no more boxes at our booth table. Were we > expecting swag boxes? The conference coordinator claimed the delivery > company would leave them all by our booth by 4pm. > > - Shane > > Melissa Warnkin wrote on 10/15/17 7:48 PM: >> Hey all, >> Is anyone going to be attending ATO and available to set up/break down the >> booth? Spend some time at the booth? >> The set up is on Sunday, October 22nd, from 12 - 6 and requires about 30 >> minutes of your time. There will be our 8'x8' wall banner that you have to >> unpack and assemble, the pop-up banner, the table skirt that goes on the >> table (duh! ;) ), and swag to put on the table. >> The breakdown is on Tuesday, October 24th, from 3 - 6. This also requires >> about 30 minutes. Disassemble the banners and repackage them, fold the table >> skirt and repackage. Any leftover swag can be taken home with you or donated >> locally. >> I will take care of all of the paperwork; all you have to do is >> unpack/repack. If anyone is available to assist, please let me know. >> Event details here - https://allthingsopen.org/ >> October 23, 24, in Raleigh, NC >> Thank you so much! Have a great rest of your day/weekend! >> ~M >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [VOLUNTEERS NEEDED] for Apache Booth at All Things Open
I'm local and can help. - Sam Ruby On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Melissa Warnkin wrote: > Hey all, > Is anyone going to be attending ATO and available to set up/break down the > booth? Spend some time at the booth? > The set up is on Sunday, October 22nd, from 12 - 6 and requires about 30 > minutes of your time. There will be our 8'x8' wall banner that you have to > unpack and assemble, the pop-up banner, the table skirt that goes on the > table (duh! ;) ), and swag to put on the table. > The breakdown is on Tuesday, October 24th, from 3 - 6. This also requires > about 30 minutes. Disassemble the banners and repackage them, fold the table > skirt and repackage. Any leftover swag can be taken home with you or donated > locally. > I will take care of all of the paperwork; all you have to do is > unpack/repack. If anyone is available to assist, please let me know. > Event details here - https://allthingsopen.org/ > October 23, 24, in Raleigh, NC > Thank you so much! Have a great rest of your day/weekend! > ~M - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > My experience with legal is it is a black hole. And I disagree with other > more blasise attitudes on this. > > I appreciate the feedback but there is an electronic changeover on dmca > occurring in the imminent future and all it takes is one disruptive troll. > > I am disappointed the response wasn't more, 6$ let's do that today and make > the vplegal the agent. I suggest reopening https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-164. Should VP Legal wish to volunteer for that role, I can't see how anybody would take issue with this. > Regards, > KAM - Sam Ruby > On July 13, 2017 8:25:21 AM EDT, Greg Stein wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> Sorry for my vagueness but this is important and you went left while i >>> went right on the topic. >> >> >> >> Your most appropriate venue is legal-discuss@, and just that one list. >> >> -g - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Where's the code?
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: > FYI: > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BxQzPVnzyAUD8NpCNB1MIwvlglU1G5lTXAvYGzkSlP0/edit#gid=0 > if you want to play along. Is there any way that this can be integrated into https://whimsy.apache.org/site/ ? Advantages: individual projects can do self discovery, and the list would be updated automatically. What we would need is some sort of rules as to what you are expecting to see for every site. - Sam Ruby > On 06/21/2017 10:57 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: >> One of the "low hanging fruit" that I believe would increase >> contributions to our projects is telling people where the code is. It's >> astonishingly hard to find out, for most of our projects. >> >> For the example of how to do it, see https://commons.apache.org/ >> >> Note that in the navigation, it says SOURCE REPOSITORIES. The first link >> there - "General Information" - tells you exactly how to get the code, >> as well as providing links to browse the code. >> >> This should be part of the site nav for every project. >> >> This isn't mandated by our site policy, nor should it be, IMHO. I have >> no desire to create policy here. What I do want to do, however, is >> organize an effort to go through every one of our projects, find the >> relevant code locations, and submit patches to these projects to provide >> this information on their websites. >> >> Obviously, I should start with my own project. Finding the code for >> httpd is possible, but not obvious. I'll go fix that. After that, I'm >> going to start tracking this information in a doc somewhere as I work >> through the other projects. >> >> Anyone interested in working on a cross-project effort like this with me? >> > > > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Board report helper
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Isabel Drost-Fromm wrote: > > I also looked through whimsy, but only after checking above pages. It is in whimsy in a few places. If you go to the board report for a given committee, for example, https://whimsy.apache.org/board/agenda/2017-05-17/Mahout and click on info (top right) and then statistics, you will be taken to the reporter page for the committee in question. It also is mentioned explicitly in both of the reminder emails that go out when an email is due: https://github.com/apache/whimsy/tree/master/www/board/agenda/data Suggestions on how to make either or both more obvious welcome. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: planet.apache.org was shutdown - can we remove links?
Some links that might be helpful: https://docs.puppet.com/puppet/latest/lang_classes.html https://docs.puppet.com/puppet/latest/type.html - Sam Ruby On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: >> >> On 12/14/2016 09:41 AM, Shane Curcuru wrote: >>> Rich Bowen wrote on 12/14/16 8:45 AM: >>> ...snip... >>>> Yeah, there's no absolutely reason for this to have SLA uptime guarantees. >>>> >>>> Also, it seems like something that ComDev should care about. In >>>> particular, I would be glad to be responsible for the service. And we >>>> could even put it on the feathercast.apache.org VM, so that no new VMs >>>> need to be spun up. >>> >>> +1 all around. I would love to see planet.apache.org doing the >>> auto-aggregation for any committers who opt-in, and to let committers >>> know about it. >>> >>>> So far as puppet, I know absolutely zero, but am willing to learn and/or >>>> get out of the way, as necessary. I'd really like to resurrect this >>>> service, if we can. I don't have a *lot* of extra time right now, but I >>>> think I have enough time to poke at Venus every few weeks and encourage >>>> committers and members to update their entries in the config file. >>> >>> After the holidays I'm done giving new talks at conferences, so I hope >>> to be able to at least help document these kinds of setups, so that >>> ComDev can do a better job of maintaining them. >> >> This particular one is already VERY well documented - see Sam's earlier >> note. And Venus itself is very much set-and-forget. Spinning up a Venus >> instance takes a couple minutes, by hand. It's the Puppet part of it >> that I don't know. > > Thank you (I'm the one who documented it :-)). > > As to the puppet part that you don't know, that's what I want to fix. > I think you will find for the tasks that are needed to get a planet > instance up and running are easy-peasy. > >>> It sounds like if Sam can draft the code for puppet/original setup of >>> Venus on a ComDev VM (same as feathercast seems fine, unless I'm missing >>> something about VM performance) I can assist Rich in finishing app >>> configuration and bringing over any still-live blog entries, etc. > > I will learn nothing by doing that, and by experience know that when > things go wrong (I agree with Rich that Venus is pretty much set and > forget, except when it is not, and by that point the forget part has > already been done) that people will expect me to fix it. > >>> Serious Puppet skills are likely to remain rare outside of infra, but >>> once something is running with a default config - and we have a >>> consistent place to document ComDev tools - it feels like we'll succeed >>> now with our new energy. > > It doesn't take serious puppet skills to do this. But in any case, I > more than have enough - I run puppet to configure my home machines and > even laptop. We can leave the serious stuff to the infra folks, but > having enough puppet skills to be able to configure a VM to run Venus > is something that more people should have. > > So let's get started. There is no deadline. Setting up Venus is only > a few steps, and if we were to do one step a day, it will be up and > running before you know it. > > To start with, all of the puppet configuration is here: > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet. Only two parts are > relevant to the task at hand. First, there is modules: > > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/tree/deployment/modules > > We are going to need to create a planet_apache module. That basically > means that we are going to need to create a file named > modules/planet_apache/manifests/init.pp file. The syntax is > relatively straightforward. At first, it seems strange that it > generally takes about five lines to do anything (create a file, > directory, or user, start a service, create a cron job), but once you > get over that, everything is straightforward. > > The way to create the init.pp file is via a GitHub pull request. If > somebody were to take that first step, I will review it, test it > locally and provide feedback. Once it is ready, I will deploy the > change. Don't be afraid to make mistakes, the goal of this exercise > is to learn. > > The name 'init.pp' is just a default. Should your module get big > enough, you can split things into multiple files. Take a look at the > whimsy_server
Re: planet.apache.org was shutdown - can we remove links?
is relevant is the files in the data/nodes directory. As there already is a comdev-vm, my suggestion would be to use it. (I'm not sure whether or not feathercast is puppetized). Adding a module to a VM is a matter of adding one line to the list of classes at the top of the file. I already have a login to comdev-vm... this isn't actually required, but will enable me to verify that the steps that have been deployed so far are working. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: planet.apache.org was shutdown - can we remove links?
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > On 12/13/2016 08:22 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> >>> On 12/12/2016 09:33 PM, John D. Ament wrote: >>>> All, >>>> >>>> The planet.apache.org site was shutdown some time back. There's still one >>>> open link I can find. https://www.apache.org/dev/committer-blogs - can >>>> this/should this be removed? >>> >>> In related news, I always found PlanetApache (and, in particular, the >>> Twitter component of it - http://twitter.com/planetapache/ - a wonderful >>> source of news. Is there a chance that I could get the config file and >>> spin up a new copy of this? >> >> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/planet/ >> >> https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/docs/services/planet.txt >> >>> I know it was shut down because it quit working and nobody was >>> interested in maintaining it. However, Venus takes very little to >>> maintain, and I suppose I should have volunteered a long time ago. > > Thanks, Sam. > > Of course, the related question is, *why* was this service shut down? Short answer: this service was originally deployed when everybody was given ids on minotaur and given access to install software. This has changed. Here's a more official link (requires authorization): https://mail-search.apache.org/members/private-arch/infrastructure/201605.mbox/%3c5725b3f9.1030...@apache.org%3E > Was it just that the committers.ini file was out dated and nobody was > updating it? If so, perhaps mentioning this periodically on > committ...@apache.org would be the right approach rather than just > dropping the service. Nope. > If it's resources, or someone to maintain it, that makes more sense. > Perhaps once I have the service running again we can point the DNS > record at it again? That's closer. The right solution (from an infrastructure perspective, and for long term maintainability) is to have planet.apache.org puppetized. As such, it could be deployed to comdev-vm, and the dns records updated. ... and that's where the conversation inevitably stops. The infrastructure team doesn't want to own this service (i.e., with SLA uptime guarantees); they would much rather support the VM on which this service is run. Unfortunately, to date we have not found anybody willing to learn enough of puppet to meet the infrastructure team half way. More personally, I could puppetize this in short order, (and I clearly know the venus software as I created it) but I don't want to own the service. I'll be glad to help by providing answers and pointers, and there are plenty of people on #asfinfra on HipChat who also can help. And if the person that volunteers can help others with similar tasks down the road, perhaps we can expand the number of services that are run without further burdening the infrastructure team. > I find stuff like this really useful in getting a sense of what the > larger community is up to. I'd personally like it if it was a Planet of > posts that were tagged 'apache', but that's a conversation that we had > to death back when the service was started up in the first place. There is no reason why there can't be multiple planets. > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: planet.apache.org was shutdown - can we remove links?
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > On 12/12/2016 09:33 PM, John D. Ament wrote: >> All, >> >> The planet.apache.org site was shutdown some time back. There's still one >> open link I can find. https://www.apache.org/dev/committer-blogs - can >> this/should this be removed? > > In related news, I always found PlanetApache (and, in particular, the > Twitter component of it - http://twitter.com/planetapache/ - a wonderful > source of news. Is there a chance that I could get the config file and > spin up a new copy of this? http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/planet/ https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/docs/services/planet.txt > I know it was shut down because it quit working and nobody was > interested in maintaining it. However, Venus takes very little to > maintain, and I suppose I should have volunteered a long time ago. > > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > > 3. IGNORE IT > > You don't have to read what other people write, you don't have to > internalize it and you may convince others to do the same. For 20 years, > this was the number one defense against trolls and poisonous people. Strongly disagree. I want an ASF that grows communities. This is not to be accomplished by giving trolls and poisonous people an unchecked playground to perform whatever mischief satisfies whatever internal urge they have. And to tell the targets of this individual to just ignore it. I provided a link previously describing an experience I had. I hope that you can appreciate that "just ignore it" was not the right advice for that situation. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > > And FTR, yes, I am obviously incredulous and ignorant enough to not see how > any mechanism in the ASF setup causes or encourages bad behavior from > individuals. I do *NOT* believe that anybody has stated that. I certainly didn't. Misstating others positions is counterproductive. > Shane asked me to not stand in the way[1] of people who wants to improve > diversity, but I am concerned about that _enforcement_ of a Code of Conduct > will be overused. Yes, I realize that is also without usecases, but Noah > stated that I am (by asking for some examples) an example of not "feeling > safe" and I imply from that this _enforcement_ could (maybe should) be > struck down on me over this very thread, rather than educate me of what is > so "thoroughly horrible". The "assume the best intentions" attitude seems > to be slowly replaced by a "assume the worst intentions", and I think that > too is worrisome, especially with an "enforcement", rather than > "education", "promotion" and "leading by example" language in Sharan's > proposal. You correctly state that your concern is without use cases. Recapping: the ASF does not cause bad behavior. However as bad behavior has and will continue to occur despite this, and as that bad behavior harms our mission, it is the ASF's best interest to not tolerate that behavior. No set of rules will capture every possible bad behavior that could possibly occur. The most that we can do is state that such behavior will not be tolerated, and to follow through. Just like you have asked of others, I ask that you judge those that do so based on actual enforcement, not based on your own personal worst fears and interpretations of their intent. If a Code of Conduct is overused, please speak up. Until that occurs (and every evidence we have is that we collectively have taken great pains NOT to do so), please respect that there is a very real problem that needs to be addressed. > Cheers > Niclas > > [1] A really terrible argument, since you (Shane) would not have that > attitude for a proposal to allow for GPL'd projects in the ASF. "Don't > stand in the way for people who wants to improve licensing diversity... > enforce the right to release under multiple licenses...". And that is a really terrible attempt to describe a situation that isn't remotely parallel to the topic at hand. - Sam Ruby > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Mark Thomas wrote: > >> On 15/11/2016 17:28, Noah Slater wrote: >> > What are you looking for, exactly? I'm not sure what a "use-case" is in >> > this context. >> > >> > We have a concrete example of what not to do in this very thread >> already. I >> > was contacted off-list by Niclas making it clear he expected me to >> provide >> > proof that would "convince" him that I wasn't trying to "breed" a "a >> > cry-baby and victimhood culture". >> > >> > Is this really the sort of thing we want to tolerate when a member of >> > community mentions that they've had bad experiences before. Is this sort >> of >> > thing the "inclusivity" and "welcoming-ness" we aim for? >> > >> > As it happens, I wasn't bringing up my bad experiences to make any >> concrete >> > point about what we should or should not do re policy, only to refute >> > Niclas's nonsense idea that "safety" is not a word we should be using. >> >> I received a similar off-list e-mail and while the impression I got was >> of a general tone of incredulity, I'm prepared to give Niclas the >> benefit of the doubt and assume it was a poorly worded email and he is >> trying to better understand something he has never experienced. >> >> To summarise what happened in my case: >> >> - A list member launched an islamophobic attack on another list member >> that was way, way over the line (no need to look for it in the archives, >> it was removed within minutes). >> >> - I responded saying such behaviour was completely unacceptable and that >> I was removing that person from the mailing list. >> >> - I then received a series of e-mails over about 24 hours (it might have >> been less - it was a while ago) that threatened me and my family. >> >> - Because I am involved in infra, I was able to to remove the original >> email from the archives and ensure that the person making the threats >> was not subscribed to any other ASF lists. >> >> - I took the threats seriously
Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Tim Williams wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Shane Curcuru wrote: >> Sam Ruby wrote on 11/15/16 3:41 PM: >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: >> ... >>> First, if you are not convinced, don't participate. All we ask is that >>> you don't actively prevent others from doing so. Go Sharan and >>> others! >> ... >> >> +1. >> >> We have at least three ComDev PMC members who are interested in doing >> this work, so I'm glad to see it move forward. General complaints don't >> help, and often harm. Specific patches or changes with consensus behind >> them that help the work move forward would be appreciated. > > Taking yours and Sam's "then don't participate"-style responses, one > might conclude that diversity is desirable only when folks are of like > mind, which kinda defeats the point. I don't care for that characterization of my point of view. I believe that diversity is something we should seek out, it makes us stronger and more resilient. I merely acknowledge that not everybody shares my point of view on this subject. > The original feedback wasn't general complaints, it was a specific > question: "what does feel safe mean?" It's a reasonable question, > even if there was some over-use of hyperbole. He ended with a > paragraph like, "now, if this is what you mean...I'm fine with it" On > any other topic, I feel like most folks around here would assume > positive intent and try to understand the perspective. I also have had experience with not feeling "safe" here. It was not a matter of a physical threat, but it was a very credible threat by an individual who was more than capable of following through. I'm not willing to share more on a publicly archived list. Those who are ASF members can find out more by going to the following link: https://s.apache.org/R5sk; for those who are impatient, scroll down to the P.S.. I dare anybody who can stomach reading that to say "I might pity you for being too sensitive, but...". > Thanks, > --tim - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > Noah, > ASF has not gotten to where it is by generalizations and abstractions of > nonexistent issues. Whenever anyone brings up a hypothetical, be it in > Legal or Membership quorums, the response is that we deal with it when > there are actual usecases. I am one who also prefers actual usecases. Sadly, they are all too easy to be found. > I am asking for examples, some type of record to consume to form myself an > opinion of whether anything new is needed. If such pragmatism hurts your > feelings, well... I might pity you for being too sensitive, but it is not > an argument and you are not convincing me of anything. I'd like to flip that around. First, if you are not convinced, don't participate. All we ask is that you don't actively prevent others from doing so. Go Sharan and others! Second, our goal here is to build communities. A vital part of that goal is to make people feel welcome, or at the very least not push them away. Third, it is my observation that once someone injects "take offense" into the conversation, they are looking at the problem in the wrong way. If you take offense, that is at least in part your problem. If we don't take steps to make you feel welcome, then that is our failing. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: On wearing multiple hats
from a board perspective. But these are not hard and fast rules, deviations from one or more can also be OK. And a project can meet these criteria and still be a problem. Like others, I see metrics as an aid, not an end in itself. If a project hasn't made a release in a while and hasn't explained why not in their quarterly report, then that is an indication that deeper research is required in to the health of the PMC. > Anyone interested in this? Anyone interested in helping get sensible numbers > up > - my JIRA magic is seriously lacking... The reporter tool tracks much of what can easily be gathered. It is good at what it does. And it has received criticism based on others taking that input and seeing that as more than a mere indicator. https://reporter.apache.org/ > Isabel - Sam Ruby > [1] > http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/Spark-Improvement-Proposals-tt19268.html#none > > [2] > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0DpP25QCfQ&list=PL055Epbe6d5YSf1gQ-KL68xI9QsE70oIZ&index=13 > > [3] > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26T-UKAs1Fk&list=PL055Epbe6d5YSf1gQ-KL68xI9QsE70oIZ&index=11 > > [4] https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlossg/4081471635 > > [5] > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/76610c48321397e7af8e2e433ac73e6e1da4aa1a80b1fac67e7ed8c2@%3Cboard.apache.org%3E > > -- > Sorry for any typos: Mail was typed in vim, written in mutt, via ssh (most > likely involving some kind of mobile connection only.) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Where to report outdated "Welcome to ASF" email template?
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Alexandre Rafalovitch wrote: > The email was from "r...@apache.org", so I figured it is some sort of > global standard email (not my local team's one). I haven't tried to > reply to that address. This looks like the source to the message you received: https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/tools/account-welcome.ezt I've reported this to the infra team: (1) shell accounts are no longer being given out, (2) https://svn.apache.org/change-password is defunct, and (3) dev@community has been replaced community@apache. > Regards, >Alex. - Sam Ruby > On 8 August 2016 at 02:44, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: >> >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Alexandre Rafalovitch [mailto:arafa...@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 20:48 >>> To: dev@community.apache.org >>> Subject: Where to report outdated "Welcome to ASF" email template? >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I just got accepted as a committer to an ASF project (Apache >>> Lucene/Solr (Yay!)). >>> >>> So, I am getting the welcome emails and trying to follow the >>> instructions. And hitting minor issues, which I would like to report. >>> Just not sure to where. >> [orcmid] >> >> Who was the sender of the "Welcome to ASF" email? Have you replied to the >> sender and any CC? >> >> Another way to have someone pursue this is to point it out on >> . >> >> You are correct. The information you received is outdated. >> >> - Dennis >>> >>> So, for the "Welcome to ASF" email, the most ironic one is >>> recommendation to use commun...@apache.org mailing list which looks to >>> be closed as of 2014 with this mailing list being the designated >>> replacement (which took 15 minutes to figure out). >>> >>> Also, it talk about logging into ssh host with username/password, but >>> the ssh server seem to only want public key now (next step??). >>> Finally, some URLs are now dead. >>> >>> I am not sure who is responsible for those mail templates and hoping >>> someone on this list will pass this on or gives me a correct address >>> to provide feedback to. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Alex. >> [ ... ] >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Getting planetapache back
On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 12:18 PM, Jan Matèrne (jhm) wrote: > Why Puppet? The Jenkins stuff is done via Ansible. > Multiple automatisation tools? I don't know about jenkins, but here is where the definition of the bulk of the ASF machines is: https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet Meanwhile, I believe that I can use comdev-vm to set this up. Once set up, it can be added either as a vhost or moved to another machine. > Jan > >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- >> Von: sa3r...@gmail.com [mailto:sa3r...@gmail.com] Im Auftrag von Sam >> Ruby >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. Mai 2016 15:35 >> An: Apache Community Dev >> Betreff: Re: Getting planetapache back >> >> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Phil Steitz >> wrote: >> > On 5/31/16 4:31 AM, Nick Burch wrote: >> >> On Mon, 30 May 2016, Phil Steitz wrote: >> >>> I will take a shot at getting it running if I can get help getting >> a >> >>> VM or host somewhere to set it up on and DNS set up to point to it. >> >>> Any suggestions on where to put it? >> >> >> >> How are your puppet skills? We can certainly ask Infra for a virtual >> >> machine to run it on, but ideally it'd be fully puppet-ised >> >> (including for the cron jobs to fetch the data, checking out the >> code >> >> from svn onto the machine etc). >> >> Partly-puppetised is possible, but would mean you need to document >> >> more if it's to be in any way supported >> > >> > I know nothing about puppet, but I am willing to learn. My unix >> > skills are passable and I don't mind writing documentation. Is there >> > an svn or git repo somewhere for comdev where I can start >> embarrassing >> > myself? Is comdev willing to take on supporting the code? >> >> I can help with the puppetization. >> >> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet-kitchen is the best >> place to get started at the moment for building a test environment for >> puppetizing a machine that will run on ASF infrastructure. But it >> still is a pretty steep learning curve. >> >> There is no reason that the entire process can't be entirely >> puppetized. >> >> +1 for comdev owning this function. >> >> > Phil >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> - Sam Ruby >
Re: Getting planetapache back
On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Phil Steitz wrote: > On 5/31/16 4:31 AM, Nick Burch wrote: >> On Mon, 30 May 2016, Phil Steitz wrote: >>> I will take a shot at getting it running if I can get help >>> getting a VM or host somewhere to set it up on and DNS set up to >>> point to it. Any suggestions on where to put it? >> >> How are your puppet skills? We can certainly ask Infra for a >> virtual machine to run it on, but ideally it'd be fully >> puppet-ised (including for the cron jobs to fetch the data, >> checking out the code from svn onto the machine etc). >> Partly-puppetised is possible, but would mean you need to document >> more if it's to be in any way supported > > I know nothing about puppet, but I am willing to learn. My unix > skills are passable and I don't mind writing documentation. Is > there an svn or git repo somewhere for comdev where I can start > embarrassing myself? Is comdev willing to take on supporting the > code? I can help with the puppetization. https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet-kitchen is the best place to get started at the moment for building a test environment for puppetizing a machine that will run on ASF infrastructure. But it still is a pretty steep learning curve. There is no reason that the entire process can't be entirely puppetized. +1 for comdev owning this function. > Phil >> >> Nick - Sam Ruby
Re: Website Source code?
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:15 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > Hello, > > I was wondering, where is the source code for www.apache.org actually > housed? https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/infrastructure/site/trunk/content > John - Sam Ruby
Re: People finder
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > >> -Original Message- >> From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org] >> Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2016 09:06 >> To: dev@community.apache.org >> Subject: Re: People finder >> >> Daniel Ruggeri wrote on 3/5/16 11:07 AM: >> > Hi, all; >> >It's been in my backlog to update and/or add my info for the Nearby >> > Apache People app[1]. I noticed a few things to point out (and I won't >> > complain without offering to help, so if anyone could point me in the >> > direction of fixing these, I will be happy to oblige). >> > >> > * The local mentors page [2] references the FOAF page [3] at >> > people.apache.org, but that doesn't seem to have survived the recent >> > migration. Is it gone or should the link be updated? >> >> Good point - people.a.o is no more; home.a.o (which is different in >> services/features, mostly just ~/public_html serving) replaces it: >> committ...@apache.org "[NOTICE] people.apache.org web space is moving to >> home.apache.org" >> Message-ID: <5655a774.2040...@apache.org> > [orcmid] > > Well, unfortunately, there was supposed to be a substitute for the use of the > scripts at people.a.o for administering committer and PMC karma combined with > a promise that people.a.o would stick around until that had happened. Fortunately, a replacement is available for testing: https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/openoffice > It appears that people.a.o is gone and/or there is some sort of ssh problem > with both people.a.o and home.a.o. > > Is there some announcement about the new arrangement or is this just an ssh > problem? Where would you look for that information? I previously had updated two locations, but apparently the word hasn't gotten out. Please let me know what else should be updated. http://apache.org/dev/pmc.html#SVNaccess https://reference.apache.org/pmc/acreq#SVNaccess - Sam Ruby
Re: Adding asfext:registered to projects.a.o?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote:
> How about something very modern - moving to JSON-LD schema.org annotations
> in the root index of the project homepage and just fetching all of those..?
>
> Seriously; keeping them under a single comdev control sounds most sensible
> as I doubt the distributed DOAP files are well maintained. Projects can
> raise pull requests to update and then see their changes live on the new
> projects.apache.org pages
I agree with centralize first, and decentralize when the need shows itself.
As for format: let prototype. Seriously.
If Shane can provide some initial test data in any format (e.g. CSV) I
can convert that to YAML and you can convert it to JSON-LD, and Shane
can determine which would be easier for him to maintain. I'll also go
the extra step and write a small script that converts it to JSON
(note: POJO, not LD), and write an ugly page that fetches and displays
that data. Others can do likewise.
Shane should be able to use these programs as examples and extend them
as he sees fit.
- Sam Ruby
> On 11 Feb 2016 17:35, "sebb" wrote:
>
>> On 11 February 2016 at 12:03, Shane Curcuru wrote:
>> > I need to annotate our structured data set of Apache projects to track
>> > which project names are registered trademarks. This is needed to be
>> > able to properly generate a.o/foundation/marks/list (which is currently
>> > sadly outdated since it's manually built now). This is a serious need
>> > for Brand Management, since we regularly have third parties say "but you
>> > didn't SAY it was your trademark, so I can do it anyway..."
>> >
>> > My thought is to annotate the PMC DOAP files with a registered marker,
>> > then use the existing projects.a.o building of the organized data. Then
>> > use either JS or some cron static generation to display the actual
>> > marks/list page.
>>
>> There are two kinds of RDF files:
>> - the PMC RDF files [1] which are mainly stored in the comdev area
>> [2], though they can also be stored elsewhere.
>> The locations of the files are held in committees.xml [3]
>> [These are not actually DOAP files, though the format looks similar.]
>>
>> - the project DOAP files which are stored by individual projects; they
>> are listed in projects.xml [4]
>>
>> A single PMC RDF file can be associated with multiple DOAP files, e.g.
>> Commons, Creadur, Tomcat all have multiple independent project
>> releases.
>>
>> > Is annotating the project data sources the best idea, or should I simply
>> > create a new stable URL data source that's just a list of registered
>> > names, and join the tables?
>>
>> I doubt if either of the above file types are suitable.
>> The location of the index XML files [3], [4] has already been changed
>> once (when projects-new was established).
>>
>> DOAP files are located all over the place and are often moved within
>> the SCM without updating the index file.
>> If they are located in the source tree there are often multiple copies
>> in different branches.
>>
>> PMC RDF files may not be updateable except by the project (if located
>> in their SCM), and again may move without warning if they are not in
>> [2].
>>
>> It would potentially be possible to recover the PMC RDF files from
>> their external locations and insist that they only be stored in the
>> comdev area.
>> But a single PMC may have multiple marks. Potentially also a project
>> may move from a PMC to become its own PMC.
>>
>> Therefore I think a separate file is needed.
>> That would also allow write access to be limited if necessary.
>>
>> > The end result needs to be webcontent listing projects like:
>> >
>> > The ASF claims these trademarks
>> > ...list all active TLPs
>> > Apache {$projectname}
>> > {$if registered then "®" else "™"}
>> >
>> >
>> > {$shortdesc}
>> > ...
>> > The following projects are retired
>> > ...list all Attic projects
>> >
>> > The following projects are in incubation; all trademarks here may be
>> > property of respective owners
>> > ...list all Incubation projects
>> >
>> > Separately, we should list the name of each software *product* here,
>> > since if we offer something with a clear name as an independently
>> > downloadable software product, it can be our trademark. So I'd like to
>> > list "Apache Directory Studio", since that's a notable name and a major
>> > product. But I don't want to list "Apache Commons Foo Bar Baz and
>> > Kitchensink", since those are effectively just minor components that
>> > aren't really worth claiming.
>> >
>> > Comments/suggestions please? I'm including the Whimsical project since
>> > they are also major consumers of this data.
>> >
>> > - Shane
>>
>> [1] https://projects.apache.org/pmc_rdf.html
>>
>> [2]
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/projects.apache.org/data/committees/
>> [3]
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/projects.apache.org/data/committees.xml
>> [4]
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/projects.apache.org/data/projects.xml
>>
Re: Adding asfext:registered to projects.a.o?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:35 AM, sebb wrote:
> On 11 February 2016 at 12:03, Shane Curcuru wrote:
>> I need to annotate our structured data set of Apache projects to track
>> which project names are registered trademarks. This is needed to be
>> able to properly generate a.o/foundation/marks/list (which is currently
>> sadly outdated since it's manually built now). This is a serious need
>> for Brand Management, since we regularly have third parties say "but you
>> didn't SAY it was your trademark, so I can do it anyway..."
>>
>> My thought is to annotate the PMC DOAP files with a registered marker,
>> then use the existing projects.a.o building of the organized data. Then
>> use either JS or some cron static generation to display the actual
>> marks/list page.
>
> There are two kinds of RDF files:
> - the PMC RDF files [1] which are mainly stored in the comdev area
> [2], though they can also be stored elsewhere.
> The locations of the files are held in committees.xml [3]
> [These are not actually DOAP files, though the format looks similar.]
>
> - the project DOAP files which are stored by individual projects; they
> are listed in projects.xml [4]
>
> A single PMC RDF file can be associated with multiple DOAP files, e.g.
> Commons, Creadur, Tomcat all have multiple independent project
> releases.
>
>> Is annotating the project data sources the best idea, or should I simply
>> create a new stable URL data source that's just a list of registered
>> names, and join the tables?
>
> I doubt if either of the above file types are suitable.
> The location of the index XML files [3], [4] has already been changed
> once (when projects-new was established).
>
> DOAP files are located all over the place and are often moved within
> the SCM without updating the index file.
> If they are located in the source tree there are often multiple copies
> in different branches.
>
> PMC RDF files may not be updateable except by the project (if located
> in their SCM), and again may move without warning if they are not in
> [2].
>
> It would potentially be possible to recover the PMC RDF files from
> their external locations and insist that they only be stored in the
> comdev area.
> But a single PMC may have multiple marks. Potentially also a project
> may move from a PMC to become its own PMC.
>
> Therefore I think a separate file is needed.
> That would also allow write access to be limited if necessary.
There are indeed multiple ways to solve this, and each way involves a tradeoff.
I would suggest separating this question into three parts.
- - -
First, where is the ultimate source for the data. And the best way to
address that question is to first decide who will be updating that
data. Will it be each project, or those on the branding mailing list,
or only VP brand? Knowing the answer to that question will make a big
difference.
My suggestion would be to start simple with a single file, in the same
directory as committee-info.txt. I'd suggest YAML as a format as it
is a good tradeoff between human edit-ability and programmatic
parse-ability.
- - -
Next is access. What you need is something that takes the data from
the private repository, sanitizes it, and publishes the result for
public consumption. Whimsy has a bunch of cron jobs that places
similar data here: https://whimsy.apache.org/public/. A script that
parses a YAML file out of SVN, selects and filters out various parts,
and publishes the results in JSON format is very doable.
---
Finally, there is publishing. While that could be a cron job that
produces static HTML, web browsers have the ability to consume JSON
and format the results. That's probably the best solution to this.
---
The Apache Phone book is an example of an application that uses the
above design:
https://home.apache.org/phonebook.html
In fact, if the data is made available in this manner, the trademark
information could be included directly in the results of the page it
produces. That's one of the nice things about having a public JSON
version of the data published - multiple tools can consume that data.
- Sam Ruby
>> The end result needs to be webcontent listing projects like:
>>
>> The ASF claims these trademarks
>> ...list all active TLPs
>> Apache {$projectname}
>> {$if registered then "®" else "™"}
>>
>>
>> {$shortdesc}
>> ...
>> The following projects are retired
>> ...list all Attic projects
>>
>> The following projects are in incubation; all trademarks here may be
>> property of respective owners
>> ...list all Incubation projects
>>
>> Separately, we should list the name of each software *product* her
Re: Moderators for announce@
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 1:04 AM, Stefan Bodewig wrote: > On 2015-11-13, Sam Ruby wrote: > >> I've added stefan.bode...@freenet.de as a moderator, > > Thanks, Sam. I'm using my apache.org address (bode...@apache.org) for > the other lists I moderate, so I'd prefer if you could replace the > address. Done. >> and verified that the message is still in the moderation queue. Let >> me know if you need anything more. > > I can't seem to figure out how to access the moderation queue and > moderate through the message via the mail interface. Is there a way or > do I need to re-send the announcement / wait for anybody else in order > to get it through? Done. > Stefan - Sam Ruby
Re: Moderators for announce@
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Stefan Bodewig wrote: > Hi all > > I'm not sure whether this is the correct list but couldn't come up with > something more appropriate after trying infra without success. > > I've sent the announcement mail for the latest log4net release almost 60 > hours ago and so far it hasn't been moderated through. This also meant > the announcement didn't make it into Sally's weekly ASF status update > :-( > > Do we need more moderators? If so, I offer to help out. I'm already > moderator of ~10 lists and a member of the ASF (if this is a > requirement). I've added stefan.bode...@freenet.de as a moderator, and verified that the message is still in the moderation queue. Let me know if you need anything more. > Cheers > > Stefan - Sam Ruby
Re: Apache Software Foundation Projects and DevOps
On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > Perhaps the question was about how the Foundation itself > manages its own IT needs. Not sure if we've got anybody > from the INFRA team on this list, but they were the right > folks to ask. if that is the case, the following link may be helpful: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INFRA/Git+workflow+for+infrastructure-puppet+repo > Thanks, > Roman. - Sam Ruby > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 10:24 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: >> Akond, >> Unless I misunderstand what you are asking for, I don't think the question >> is relevant. >> >> Projects create software, but very few (if any) projects provide their >> software as an online service. >> Some projects, however, target the DevOps communities directly, such as >> Apache Mesos and many other projects are used by DevOps in the Enterprise >> around the world. It is also very possible that individuals working on the >> Apache projects, do apply Continuous Deployment and other practices at >> their day job, with those Apache projects. I have no example of this, but >> it wouldn't surprise me... >> >> Apache Software Foundation itself runs many services to be provided to >> projects for them to do their job. This includes Continuous Integration >> applications, source control systems, mailing lists and much more. The >> infrastructure team is a seasoned operations team with rather strong >> development skills. You could call them DevOps if you like, but possibly >> not the definition that you work with. >> >> Hope that helps. >> Niclas >> >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < >> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >>> Should probably ask this on the ComDev list, CC’ed (BCC to >>> webmaster@) >>> >>> ++ >>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >>> Chief Architect >>> Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) >>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >>> Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527 >>> Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov >>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >>> ++ >>> Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department >>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >>> ++ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Akond Rahman >>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 12:58 PM >>> To: "webmas...@apache.org" >>> Subject: Apache Software Foundation Projects and DevOps >>> >>> >Greetings, >>> > >>> > >>> >I am a second year PhD student and I am looking for project repositories >>> >such as >>> > >>> >project source code, project version history, bug history etc. that are >>> >used >>> > >>> >in DevOps shops and the products they deliver. My question for you is: >>> >does Apache software >>> > >>> > >>> >foundation use DevOps or continuous delivery >>> >principles/policies/practices for their >>> > >>> > >>> >projects? If so which projects and what are their versions? >>> > >>> > >>> >Any kind of feedback will be greatly appreciated. >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Sincerely, >>> >Akond Rahman, >>> > >>> >Graduate Teaching Assistant, >>> > >>> >Department of CSC, NCSU >>> >Website: http://akondrahman.github.io/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer >> http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: [reporter] Confusing PMC/Committeer/Committee/LDAP report format
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 12:29 PM, sebb wrote: > On 21 October 2015 at 13:27, Sam Ruby wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Mike Kienenberger >> wrote: >>> Rich already made it clear what would be the best improvement and gave >>> a specific example, but I'll put it in generic terms. >>> >>> Show the current count of the PMC members and committers. >>> Show the last PMC addition and date. >>> Show the last committer addition and date. >>> >>> That's also all I'm looking for as PMC Chair of MyFaces. I don't >>> need this report to tell me if the info came from LDAP or >>> committee-info as they should always be the same. If they are out of >>> sync, then you can add section with the details for identifying and >>> fixing that if you think that's important, but that's not the point of >>> the reporter tool. The point of the report also isn't to tell the >>> board the exact day someone was added, it is to give the board an idea >>> how often the community is growing. Let's not worry about making the >>> board report template so accurate and precise and in-depth that it >>> stops being useful due to too much information. >>> >>> I ended up going through and rewriting the membership section for the >>> MyFaces October report by hand, defeating the point of using the >>> reporter tool to write the boilerplate section for me. >> >> +1 > > The proposed version should make this particular editing unnecessary. > >> I'd suggest that the reporter tool and Whimsy roster tool provide >> pointers to each other, where the latter focuses on the differences. > > That is what I have tried to do in the proposed version - please have > a look and see if it makes sense. I'm not sure what I should be looking at at this point. --- Going to: https://reporter.apache.org/index_proposed.html And then scrolling to "Report template", I see: PMC changes (from committee-info.txt) I'd like to see the (from committee-info.txt) parenthetical removed. I also see "Currently 1 committers." --- Going to: https://reporter.apache.org/index.html I see "## PMC changes: " which I prefer over the proposed version. I also see "8 PMC members" mentioned twice. As well as "No new PMC members added in the last 3 months " mentioned twice. I also see "Currently 1 committers". --- Something I haven't seen mentioned yet, but please remove the "Report from the Apache Whimsy committee [Ross Gardler]" line as many people interpret that as being part of the template, and paste it immediately after the line in the agenda containing the same information. >> I'm working slowly on making the roster tool read/write so that it can >> be used instead of the Perl scripts and editing committee-info.txt >> directly. The idea is that adding an existing committer to the PMC >> should be a matter of a few mouse clicks. >> >> Examples (currently read-only): >> >> https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/ >> https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/myfaces >> >> - Sam Ruby
Re: ASF-Github integration: where is the source?
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Petr Spacek wrote: > Hello, > > I just read an article about Github integration for ASF projects [1] and it > sounds very interesting. Is the source code of the solution in use available > somewhere? Is it open-source? My expectation is that other projects could > benefit from the very same kind of integration. > > Thank you for answers. I think you can find what you are looking for here: https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/projects/github/ Going up a directory, there are more git related projects: https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/projects/ > [1] > https://blogs.apache.org/infra/entry/improved_integration_between_apache_and > > -- > Petr Spacek @ Red Hat - Sam Ruby
Re: [reporter] Confusing PMC/Committeer/Committee/LDAP report format
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Mike Kienenberger wrote: > Rich already made it clear what would be the best improvement and gave > a specific example, but I'll put it in generic terms. > > Show the current count of the PMC members and committers. > Show the last PMC addition and date. > Show the last committer addition and date. > > That's also all I'm looking for as PMC Chair of MyFaces. I don't > need this report to tell me if the info came from LDAP or > committee-info as they should always be the same. If they are out of > sync, then you can add section with the details for identifying and > fixing that if you think that's important, but that's not the point of > the reporter tool. The point of the report also isn't to tell the > board the exact day someone was added, it is to give the board an idea > how often the community is growing. Let's not worry about making the > board report template so accurate and precise and in-depth that it > stops being useful due to too much information. > > I ended up going through and rewriting the membership section for the > MyFaces October report by hand, defeating the point of using the > reporter tool to write the boilerplate section for me. +1 I'd suggest that the reporter tool and Whimsy roster tool provide pointers to each other, where the latter focuses on the differences. I'm working slowly on making the roster tool read/write so that it can be used instead of the Perl scripts and editing committee-info.txt directly. The idea is that adding an existing committer to the PMC should be a matter of a few mouse clicks. Examples (currently read-only): https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/ https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/myfaces - Sam Ruby
Re: [reporter] Confusing PMC/Committeer/Committee/LDAP report format
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:12 AM, sebb wrote: > On 19 October 2015 at 12:55, Sam Ruby wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:42 AM, sebb wrote: >>> On 19 October 2015 at 06:58, Hervé BOUTEMY wrote: >>>> ok, if you stay only on PMC composition information, please just remove the >>>> LDAP part: this only adds confusion >>> >>> That's not what I am suggesting. >>> >>>> adding another section is useful if it's about another information: I >>>> thought >>>> information about count of committers was useful (even if not always easy >>>> to >>>> know which are the few TLPs who let every ASF committer commit) >>> >>> The LDAP unix group section is potentially useful for the board, as it >>> may relate to changes in the committer roster. >>> However, as you say, it does not apply to all TLPs. >>> Also rarely are inactive committers removed. >>> Maybe the best would be to include a note to this effect. >> >> I see it as adding more confusion than insight. And in any case, the >> whimsy board agenda tool provides a direct link to the roster tool's >> page for the PMC associated with the report which provides more than >> raw numbers, as it will actually indicate what the differences are. >> Here's an index of such pages: > > Huh? > > I think we are talking about two different things here. That's indeed possible. > 1) The first is the number of people added to the LDAP unix group in > the past quarter > IMO this is useful for the board, as it shows activity in recruiting > committers (though there are of course caveats). > This info is not provided by Whimsy but it is provided by the reporter > tool (and has been in the template for some while). Changes in committers is indeed useful. I think highlighting the source of that information in each and every report is at best an implementation detail and at worst confusing. I would actually go so far as to say that the word LDAP should not be in the report unless there is a reason to draw this to the attention of the board. > 2) Discrepancies between the PMC roster defined in committee-info.txt > and the LDAP committee and unix groups. > These are already clearly laid out in the Whimsy page. > It is not my intention to repeat that info in Reporter, merely to link > to the page if the numbers don't agree. > > This would be done from the section currently called: > > "PMC changes (From LDAP) " > (previously "LDAP changes") I think the (From LDAP) should be omitted, but this is still a big improvement. Thanks! > The discrepancy information is not really relevant to the board so it > would not be added to the report template section. > > However it does seem useful to flag up to the PMC if there are any > discrepancies in the numbers. > >> https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/ >> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Hervé >> >> - Sam Ruby - Sam Ruby >>>> Le lundi 19 octobre 2015 01:22:37 sebb a écrit : >>>>> On 19 October 2015 at 00:44, Hervé BOUTEMY wrote: >>>>> >> -- cut here -- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ## PMC changes: >>>>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members listed in committee-info.txt. >>>>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>>>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ## LDAP unix group changes: >>>>> >> - Currently 44 members >>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- cut here -- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Would that satisfy everyone? >>>>> > >>>>> > IMHO, making explicit which "LDAP unix group" is looked at would be >>>>> > useful >>>>> >>>>> There is only one LDAP unix group for each PMC. >>>>> >>>>> > Since I still don't understand if it's the committers group or PMC group >>>>> > (I expect it to be the committers group) >>>>> >>>>> The committers group maintained using modify_unix_group.pl >>>>> >>>>> The committee group is maintained using modify_committee.pl >>>>> >>>>> > and if oodt-pmc LDAP does not have the same count as PMC members listed >>>>> > in >>>>>
Re: [reporter] Confusing PMC/Committeer/Committee/LDAP report format
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:42 AM, sebb wrote: > On 19 October 2015 at 06:58, Hervé BOUTEMY wrote: >> ok, if you stay only on PMC composition information, please just remove the >> LDAP part: this only adds confusion > > That's not what I am suggesting. > >> adding another section is useful if it's about another information: I thought >> information about count of committers was useful (even if not always easy to >> know which are the few TLPs who let every ASF committer commit) > > The LDAP unix group section is potentially useful for the board, as it > may relate to changes in the committer roster. > However, as you say, it does not apply to all TLPs. > Also rarely are inactive committers removed. > Maybe the best would be to include a note to this effect. I see it as adding more confusion than insight. And in any case, the whimsy board agenda tool provides a direct link to the roster tool's page for the PMC associated with the report which provides more than raw numbers, as it will actually indicate what the differences are. Here's an index of such pages: https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/ >> Regards, >> >> Hervé - Sam Ruby >> Le lundi 19 octobre 2015 01:22:37 sebb a écrit : >>> On 19 October 2015 at 00:44, Hervé BOUTEMY wrote: >>> >> -- cut here -- >>> >> >>> >> ## PMC changes: >>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members listed in committee-info.txt. >>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>> >> >>> >> ## LDAP unix group changes: >>> >> - Currently 44 members >>> >> - Radu Manole was added on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>> >> >>> >> -- cut here -- >>> >> >>> >> Would that satisfy everyone? >>> > >>> > IMHO, making explicit which "LDAP unix group" is looked at would be useful >>> >>> There is only one LDAP unix group for each PMC. >>> >>> > Since I still don't understand if it's the committers group or PMC group >>> > (I expect it to be the committers group) >>> >>> The committers group maintained using modify_unix_group.pl >>> >>> The committee group is maintained using modify_committee.pl >>> >>> > and if oodt-pmc LDAP does not have the same count as PMC members listed in >>> > committee-info.txt, a warning should be added in the first section >>> >>> Such a warning does not belong in the report to the board, so does not >>> belong in the report template. >>> It might be worth adding a warning to the previous LDAP section. >>> >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > Hervé >>> > >>> > Le dimanche 18 octobre 2015 14:19:00 sebb a écrit : >>> >> The app currently says for OODT: >>> >> >>> >> -- cut here -- >>> >> >>> >> ## PMC changes: >>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members. >>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> - Currently 44 committers and 43 PMC members. >>> >> - Radu Manole was added to the PMC on Sun Oct 11 2015 >>> >> - Radu Manole was added as a committer on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>> >> >>> >> -- cut here -- >>> >> >>> >> Note that there are either 42 or 43 PMC members. (*) >>> >> I think the above is a lot more confusing than the previous version which >>> >> was: >>> >> >>> >> -- cut here -- >>> >> >>> >> ## PMC changes: >>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members. >>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>> >> >>> >> ## LDAP changes: >>> >> - Currently 44 committers and 43 committee group members. >>> >> - Radu Manole was added to the committee group on Sun Oct 11 2015 >>> >> - Radu Manole was added as a committer on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>> >> >>> >> -- cut here -- >>> >> >>> >> As I already wrote, there is now no reason for the LDAP committee >>> >> change
Re: What is the legal basis for enforcing release policies at ASF?
On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > Bill, > So I can release "Niclas Hadoop platform, based on Apache Hadoop" ?? I > thought the discussion a few years ago was that this was misleading... Things in law are rarely binary except at the edges or after an actual court ruling. Releasing a "Niclas George platform powered by Apache Hadoop" conforms with our branding requirements, so would likely be OK. The further you go away from that, the less clear that what you are doing would be OK. Hadoop would be a especially problematic case for you, as "Apache Hadoop, Hadoop, Apache, the Apache feather logo, and the Apache Hadoop project logo are either registered trademarks or trademarks of the Apache Software Foundation in the United States and other countries. " -- https://hadoop.apache.org/ http is a more generic term, so including variants of it in your name (including httpd) would be less problematic than incorporating a name like Hadoop. - Sam Ruby > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:30 PM, William A Rowe Jr > wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Roman Shaposhnik >> wrote: >> >> > Hi! >> > >> > while answering a question on release policies and ALv2 >> > I've suddenly realized that I really don't know what is the >> > legal basis for enforcing release policies we've got >> > documented over here: >> >http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html >> > >> > For example, what would be the legal basis for stopping >> > a 3d party from releasing a snapshot of ASF's project >> > source tree and claim it to be a release X.Y.Z of said >> > project? >> > >> >> Nothing other than the Trademarks. >> >> If someone wants to call httpd trunk 3.0.1-GA, they cannot do this as >> "Apache httpd 3.0.1-GA" or "Apache HTTP Server 3.0.1-GA". >> >> They can certainly release trunk under the AL license and call it "Kindred >> Http Server 3.0.1-GA, based on Apache HTTP Server". That is a statement of >> fact and not an abuse of the mark, IMHO. (If it was not actually based on >> Apache HTTP Server, then that would similarly be a Trademark infringement >> as it is a false use of the mark.) >> >> There are no less than two marks, one is the name of the foundation itself >> in conjunction with Open Source Software, and the other is the specific >> project name. >> > > > > -- > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer > http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
