subject:"Email"

So here some updates to the mailing-list page:
https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/pull/127

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 20:26
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Hi Jarek,

I was told there’s a direct way to send to all dev-lists.
That’s one email going out for me … but thanks for that tip.
Could come in handy some time.

Chris

Von: Jarek Potiuk 
Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 19:54
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Hey Chris - in case you are using Gmail, I can heartily recommend Streak (
streak.com). This is a very simple CRM with fabulous integration with Gmail.

For your kind of messaging it's 100% free, you can easily prepare a
(google?) spreadsheet with addresses/repos/etc, pull the whole spreadsheet
into a pipeline and send "mass email campaign" to all the projects with
customized variables from the spreadsheet. The nice thing about it is that
it actually sends those emails from your gmail UI - so it is not super
fast, but it also by-passess all the tools that detect mass mailing as
spam. It also works nicely in the way that all the emails you send are
individual threads in your Gmail "Sent" folder. With Streak, you can
single-handedly easily manage 100s of threads - responding individually to
each thread where someone responds to your email.

Also streak nicely labels the threads that are part of your pipeline so you
can see the emails that are part of your pipeline easily. You can also
manage the state of your pipeline - moving individual items to different
stages ("Sent"/ "Responded" / "Rejected" etc... etc.)

I've managed many events this way, single-handedly communicating with
hundreds of speakers, partners, sponsors, etc - it's been a life-saver, and
likely for your use case it will be perfect.

J.

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 7:20 PM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Ok …
>
> so in total 27 repos have managed their subjects, however not a single
> project has them handled for all their repos, so literally every project
> will be “affected”.
>
> Makes the number-crunching a bit simpler, however sill gotta send out a
> hell of a lot of individual emails.
>
> I guess I should change the page:
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> Before starting to send out these emails.
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 17:54
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> Hi all,
>
> So, as I’m back from my holidays … I am planning on doing the following:
>
>
>   *   Go through the repos of the projects we have and compile a list of
> the ones affected by changed defaults.
>   *   Send an email to each of the dev-lists (or whatever qualifies as
> dev-list)
>
> Gonna be a hell of a lot of work, but it’s something I strongly believe in
> being worth the effort.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Dienstag, 8. August 2023 um 08:07
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> Well... I'll go for it as soon as I'm back from my short holiday.
>
> Chris
>
> Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> 
> From: sebb 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2023 12:16:42 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
>
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
> >
> > I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> > affected.
>
> Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.
>
> Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
> matching subjects are likely to be affected.
> Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.
>
> > > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > > Thursdays.
> > > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> > >
> > > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> > >
> > > The range I’m ok with would b

AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

Hi Jarek,

I was told there’s a direct way to send to all dev-lists.
That’s one email going out for me … but thanks for that tip.
Could come in handy some time.

Chris

Von: Jarek Potiuk 
Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 19:54
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Hey Chris - in case you are using Gmail, I can heartily recommend Streak (
streak.com). This is a very simple CRM with fabulous integration with Gmail.

For your kind of messaging it's 100% free, you can easily prepare a
(google?) spreadsheet with addresses/repos/etc, pull the whole spreadsheet
into a pipeline and send "mass email campaign" to all the projects with
customized variables from the spreadsheet. The nice thing about it is that
it actually sends those emails from your gmail UI - so it is not super
fast, but it also by-passess all the tools that detect mass mailing as
spam. It also works nicely in the way that all the emails you send are
individual threads in your Gmail "Sent" folder. With Streak, you can
single-handedly easily manage 100s of threads - responding individually to
each thread where someone responds to your email.

Also streak nicely labels the threads that are part of your pipeline so you
can see the emails that are part of your pipeline easily. You can also
manage the state of your pipeline - moving individual items to different
stages ("Sent"/ "Responded" / "Rejected" etc... etc.)

I've managed many events this way, single-handedly communicating with
hundreds of speakers, partners, sponsors, etc - it's been a life-saver, and
likely for your use case it will be perfect.

J.

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 7:20 PM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Ok …
>
> so in total 27 repos have managed their subjects, however not a single
> project has them handled for all their repos, so literally every project
> will be “affected”.
>
> Makes the number-crunching a bit simpler, however sill gotta send out a
> hell of a lot of individual emails.
>
> I guess I should change the page:
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> Before starting to send out these emails.
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 17:54
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> Hi all,
>
> So, as I’m back from my holidays … I am planning on doing the following:
>
>
>   *   Go through the repos of the projects we have and compile a list of
> the ones affected by changed defaults.
>   *   Send an email to each of the dev-lists (or whatever qualifies as
> dev-list)
>
> Gonna be a hell of a lot of work, but it’s something I strongly believe in
> being worth the effort.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Dienstag, 8. August 2023 um 08:07
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> Well... I'll go for it as soon as I'm back from my short holiday.
>
> Chris
>
> Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> 
> From: sebb 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2023 12:16:42 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
>
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
> >
> > I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> > affected.
>
> Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.
>
> Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
> matching subjects are likely to be affected.
> Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.
>
> > > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > > Thursdays.
> > > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> > >
> > > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> > >
> > > The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> > > really think we should go beyond that.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> >
> > 4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.
> >
> > --Rich
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-13 Thread Jarek Potiuk

Hey Chris - in case you are using Gmail, I can heartily recommend Streak (
streak.com). This is a very simple CRM with fabulous integration with Gmail.

For your kind of messaging it's 100% free, you can easily prepare a
(google?) spreadsheet with addresses/repos/etc, pull the whole spreadsheet
into a pipeline and send "mass email campaign" to all the projects with
customized variables from the spreadsheet. The nice thing about it is that
it actually sends those emails from your gmail UI - so it is not super
fast, but it also by-passess all the tools that detect mass mailing as
spam. It also works nicely in the way that all the emails you send are
individual threads in your Gmail "Sent" folder. With Streak, you can
single-handedly easily manage 100s of threads - responding individually to
each thread where someone responds to your email.

Also streak nicely labels the threads that are part of your pipeline so you
can see the emails that are part of your pipeline easily. You can also
manage the state of your pipeline - moving individual items to different
stages ("Sent"/ "Responded" / "Rejected" etc... etc.)

I've managed many events this way, single-handedly communicating with
hundreds of speakers, partners, sponsors, etc - it's been a life-saver, and
likely for your use case it will be perfect.

J.

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 7:20 PM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Ok …
>
> so in total 27 repos have managed their subjects, however not a single
> project has them handled for all their repos, so literally every project
> will be “affected”.
>
> Makes the number-crunching a bit simpler, however sill gotta send out a
> hell of a lot of individual emails.
>
> I guess I should change the page:
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> Before starting to send out these emails.
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 17:54
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> Hi all,
>
> So, as I’m back from my holidays … I am planning on doing the following:
>
>
>   *   Go through the repos of the projects we have and compile a list of
> the ones affected by changed defaults.
>   *   Send an email to each of the dev-lists (or whatever qualifies as
> dev-list)
>
> Gonna be a hell of a lot of work, but it’s something I strongly believe in
> being worth the effort.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Dienstag, 8. August 2023 um 08:07
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> Well... I'll go for it as soon as I'm back from my short holiday.
>
> Chris
>
> Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> 
> From: sebb 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2023 12:16:42 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
>
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
> >
> > I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> > affected.
>
> Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.
>
> Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
> matching subjects are likely to be affected.
> Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.
>
> > > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > > Thursdays.
> > > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> > >
> > > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> > >
> > > The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> > > really think we should go beyond that.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> >
> > 4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.
> >
> > --Rich
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

Ok …

so in total 27 repos have managed their subjects, however not a single project 
has them handled for all their repos, so literally every project will be 
“affected”.

Makes the number-crunching a bit simpler, however sill gotta send out a hell of 
a lot of individual emails.

I guess I should change the page:
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
Before starting to send out these emails.

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Sonntag, 13. August 2023 um 17:54
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Hi all,

So, as I’m back from my holidays … I am planning on doing the following:

  *   Go through the repos of the projects we have and compile a list of the 
ones affected by changed defaults.
  *   Send an email to each of the dev-lists (or whatever qualifies as dev-list)

Gonna be a hell of a lot of work, but it’s something I strongly believe in 
being worth the effort.

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Dienstag, 8. August 2023 um 08:07
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Well... I'll go for it as soon as I'm back from my short holiday.

Chris

Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: sebb 
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2023 12:16:42 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
>
> I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> affected.

Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.

Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
matching subjects are likely to be affected.
Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.

> > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > Thursdays.
> > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> >
> > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> >
> > The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> > really think we should go beyond that.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> 4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.
>
> --Rich
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

AW: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

Hi all,

So, as I’m back from my holidays … I am planning on doing the following:

  *   Go through the repos of the projects we have and compile a list of the 
ones affected by changed defaults.
  *   Send an email to each of the dev-lists (or whatever qualifies as dev-list)

Gonna be a hell of a lot of work, but it’s something I strongly believe in 
being worth the effort.

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Dienstag, 8. August 2023 um 08:07
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Well... I'll go for it as soon as I'm back from my short holiday.

Chris

Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: sebb 
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2023 12:16:42 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
>
> I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> affected.

Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.

Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
matching subjects are likely to be affected.
Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.

> > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > Thursdays.
> > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> >
> > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> >
> > The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> > really think we should go beyond that.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> 4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.
>
> --Rich
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-08 Thread Christofer Dutz

Well... I'll go for it as soon as I'm back from my short holiday.

Chris

Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: sebb 
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2023 12:16:42 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject: Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
>
> I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> affected.

Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.

Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
matching subjects are likely to be affected.
Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.

> > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > Thursdays.
> > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> >
> > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> >
> > The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> > really think we should go beyond that.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> 4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.
>
> --Rich
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-07 Thread sebb

On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 13:50,  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> > Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
>
> I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
> affected.

Not all projects have dev lists, and some have multiple dev lists.

Also the email needs to point out that any email filters based on
matching subjects are likely to be affected.
Further, this will affect all lists that receive GH notifications.

> > And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> > As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> > Thursdays.
> > How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> >
> > Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> > (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> > people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> >
> > The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> > really think we should go beyond that.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> 4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.
>
> --Rich
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-07 Thread rbowen

On Sat, 2023-08-05 at 15:37 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
> Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?

I think this should go to all dev@ lists, as those are the people
affected.

> And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
> As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on
> Thursdays.
> How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?
> 
> Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
> (I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give
> people a week or a year … they’ll always be surprised)
> 
> The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t
> really think we should go beyond that.
> 
> What do you think?

4 weeks/30 days makes the most sense to me.

--Rich

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-05 Thread Christofer Dutz

Hi all,

So, I think we should stay with Rich’s version of the email.
Now to the next question … which list should we post this to?
And what do you think should we define as a date when we’ll switch?
As far as I understood things, Infa merges PRs like mine on Thursdays.
How much time to we want to give people to adjust their .asf.yml?

Do 4 weeks make sense, or would a shorter time be better?
(I mean … we all know that it really doesn’t matter if you give people a week 
or a year … they’ll always be surprised)

The range I’m ok with would be 2 weeks up to 4 weeks but wouldn’t really think 
we should go beyond that.

What do you think?


Chris

Von: rbo...@rcbowen.com 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 15:39
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0200, Jarek Potiuk wrote:
> +1. Looks way better.

Updated draft, for the sake of having it in the archive:



Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.

We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.

Background: Many project mailing lists receive email auto-generated by
Github. The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages
from the same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients.
We’re fixing that.

The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. If you’re happy for
us to make this change, don’t do anything - the change will happen on
{DATE}.

Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
the following page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:

https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent

Please copy dev@community.apache.org on any feedback.

Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 19:01 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:53 PM  wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > > Hi!
> > > 
> > > I was contemplating sending a really short email
> > > to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> > > with to get this done (or convince myself that
> > > an email to a different ML is better ;-))?
> > 
> > 
> > It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
> > indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to
> > ignore
> > that list for many years.
> 
> Yeah... thinking I'll probably CC members@ ?

Yeah, probably. Or possibly the project dev lists?

> 
> > Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a
> > web
> > page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
> > apache.org for permanent reference.
> 
> https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf-legal-committee-issues-generative-ai-guidance-to-contributors
> 
> and
> 
> https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html


Oh, right, that. :) I thought this might be something new. Cool.

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Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

2023-08-04 Thread Roman Shaposhnik

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:53 PM  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I was contemplating sending a really short email
> > to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> > with to get this done (or convince myself that
> > an email to a different ML is better ;-))?
>
>
> It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
> indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to ignore
> that list for many years.

Yeah... thinking I'll probably CC members@ ?

> Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a web
> page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
> apache.org for permanent reference.

https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf-legal-committee-issues-generative-ai-guidance-to-contributors

and

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread Daniel Gruno


On 2023-08-04 16:02, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:


But the current setting is objectively awful, and so far I have not
heard even one person saying that it's better. I'm perplexed as to why
we'd want to even suggest, much less encourage, remaining with the
current setting.


The current defaults were fine when they were created, which was 
in...2015/2016 or so, back when hardly any project used github 
issues/prs and those that did had maybe four issues per month. What they 
are obviously not good at is scaling to the use we have in 2023.


As for keeping defaults, I think the number one reason would be to not 
mess up the 525600 filters that people have for the existing subject 
syntax. Giving projects the exact layout of the defaults we have right 
now will allow them to keep status quo and then, at their own pace, 
decide if they want to switch or not.





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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 06:46 -0700, Craig Russell wrote:
> I agree with Mark.
> 
> > On Aug 4, 2023, at 02:36, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> > 
> > I suggest the following:
> > 
> > - announce to projects that the default is changing in X days /
> > weeks
> >  (or even months) time
> > - provide instructions for what projects need to do before then to
> > keep
> >  the existing format
> 
> Include in the message the actual current defaults that can be
> copy/pasted into the projects' asf.yaml for project who prefer the
> current state.
> 

The longer the email is, the less chance that the target audience will
read it. Please see my updated draft, which links to the "keep your
terrible defaults" page.

I'm also working on updating the phrasing of that page to make it, too,
less about "here's what's broken" and more about "Here's how you can
tweak the defaults", at least until the change is made. At that point,
we'll have a "classic configuration" snippet there for people who
really, actually, for some inscrutable reason, want the current
setting.

But the current setting is objectively awful, and so far I have not
heard even one person saying that it's better. I'm perplexed as to why
we'd want to even suggest, much less encourage, remaining with the
current setting.

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread Craig Russell

I agree with Mark.

> On Aug 4, 2023, at 02:36, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> 
> I suggest the following:
> 
> - announce to projects that the default is changing in X days / weeks
>  (or even months) time
> - provide instructions for what projects need to do before then to keep
>  the existing format

Include in the message the actual current defaults that can be copy/pasted into 
the projects' asf.yaml for project who prefer the current state.

Craig

> - change the default
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
>>> prepare the PRs for this:
>>> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
>>> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
>>> However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
>>> 
>>> I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
>>> about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
>>> applied.
>>> 
>>> I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this 
>>> POLL are over).
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> Von: Christofer Dutz 
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
>>> An: Volkan Yazıcı 
>>> Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do 
>>> things.
>>> But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra 
>>> ticket.
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
>>> An: Christofer Dutz 
>>> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
>>> implementation progress?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
>>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
>>> Hi Volkan,
>>> 
>>> well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we 
>>> didn’t know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote 
>>> on).
>>> So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
>>> support for the proposal.
>>> 
>>> I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this 
>>> to a vote on Members@.
>>> 
>>> But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
>>> which will make a wide range of people be informed.
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
>>> An: Christofer Dutz 
>>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
>>> 
>>> Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
>>> also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users 
>>> to know when they shall expect the changes.
>>> 
>>> Kind regards.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
>>> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
>>> Well,
>>> 
>>> stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
>>> 
>>> And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
>>> .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
>>> An: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> 
>>> mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
>>> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
>>> mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:
>>>> +1
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0200, Jarek Potiuk wrote:
> +1. Looks way better.

Updated draft, for the sake of having it in the archive:



Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.

We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.

Background: Many project mailing lists receive email auto-generated by
Github. The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages
from the same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients.
We’re fixing that.

The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. If you’re happy for
us to make this change, don’t do anything - the change will happen on
{DATE}.

Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
the following page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:

https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent

Please copy dev@community.apache.org on any feedback.

Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread Jarek Potiuk

+1. Looks way better.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:21 PM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all and especially Rich …
>
> I love your version … and yes … I really need to focus more on the “what you 
> get”
> and less on “why where you’re at sucks” sort of narrative ;-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Peter Hunsberger 
> Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 15:06
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM  wrote:
>
> > Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> > things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> > tone, and half the length:
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> > To: dev@
> >
> > Dear Apache project developers,
> >
> > TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> > threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> > details are below.
> >
> > We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> > generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> > will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> > modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> > Github.
> >
> > Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> > The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> > same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> > fixing that.
> >
> > The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> > .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> > will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> > happen on {DATE}
> >
> > Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> > this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> > settings, if you prefer:
> >
> >
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >
> > Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
> >
>
> +1
>
> This seems concise and would be a welcome change
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > > alternate draft.
> > >
> > > Shosholoza,
> > > Rich
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> > >  wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > > >
> > > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > > (p)pmcs?
> > > >
> > > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > > the current defaults.
> > > >
> > > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > > quite successful in the past.
> > > >
> > > > What do you folks think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > > >
> > > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > > >
> > > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > > mailing-lists.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, some defaults w

AW: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

Hi all and especially Rich …

I love your version … and yes … I really need to focus more on the “what you 
get”
and less on “why where you’re at sucks” sort of narrative ;-)

Chris


Von: Peter Hunsberger 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 15:06
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM  wrote:

> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> tone, and half the length:
>
> 
>
>
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
>
> Dear Apache project developers,
>
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
>
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
>
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
>
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
>
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
>
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>

+1

This seems concise and would be a welcome change

>
>
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> >
> > Shosholoza,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > >
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > >
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > >
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > >
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > >
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> >

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread Peter Hunsberger

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM  wrote:

> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> tone, and half the length:
>
> 
>
>
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
>
> Dear Apache project developers,
>
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
>
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
>
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
>
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
>
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
>
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>

+1

This seems concise and would be a welcome change

>
>
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> >
> > Shosholoza,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > >
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > >
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > >
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > >
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > >
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > > on Apache hardware.
> > >
> > > In Comdev we have been discussing how

Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I was contemplating sending a really short email
> to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> with to get this done (or convince myself that
> an email to a different ML is better ;-))?

It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to ignore
that list for many years.

Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a web
page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
apache.org for permanent reference.

--Rich

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 08:45 -0400, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:
> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were
> awful"
> tone, and half the length:

Note: Draft lives here: https://hackmd.io/OLN1OC9UTIuk5seu5S8ZcQ - and
I've made a few small corrections/tweaks.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
> 
> Dear Apache project developers,
> 
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
> 
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of
> most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
> 
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on
> Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
> 
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
> 
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are
> on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
> 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> 
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> > 
> > Shosholoza, 
> > Rich
> >     
> > 
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > > 
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > > 
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > > 
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an
> > > unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > > 
> > > What do you folks think?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Chris
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > > 
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and
> > > systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > > 
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-
> > > client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to
> > > lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email
> > > lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it
> > > didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out
> > > what’s
> > >

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
tone, and half the length:




Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
To: dev@

Dear Apache project developers,

TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.

We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.

Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
fixing that.

The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
happen on {DATE}

Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:

https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent

Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC






On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> alternate draft.
> 
> Shosholoza, 
> Rich
>     
> 
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > 
> > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > (p)pmcs?
> > 
> > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > the current defaults.
> > 
> > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > quite successful in the past.
> > 
> > What do you folks think?
> > 
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > 
> > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > 
> > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > mailing-lists.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > and only “come back” for voting.
> > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > of this rule was:
> > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > on Apache hardware.
> > 
> > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > 
> > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > manage how the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files,
> &g

AW: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

Hi Roman,

Have you thought about asking Chat GPT where to post it? ;-)
(duck and cover)

Chris


Von: Roman Shaposhnik 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 14:26
An: ComDev 
Betreff: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools 
guidance
Hi!

I was contemplating sending a really short email
to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
with to get this done (or convince myself that
an email to a different ML is better ;-))?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

2023-08-04 Thread Roman Shaposhnik

Hi!

I was contemplating sending a really short email
to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
with to get this done (or convince myself that
an email to a different ML is better ;-))?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread Rich Bowen

As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is wrong. Give
me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an alternate draft.

Shosholoza,
Rich


On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
>
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change
> to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust
> their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be
> putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight
> and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in
> the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
> participating without requiring yet another login.
>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
> notifications@ or commits@.
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and
> only “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this
> rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some
> sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
>
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to
> have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some
> time to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread Daniel Gruno


On 2023-08-04 11:52, Jarek Potiuk wrote:

Few comments:

* make it shorter
* add TL;DR; explaining in one paragraph what it is about, what effect
it will have on those who receive it
* add - immediately after that - mentioning that while the change is
coming by default to everyone, everyone has a way to go back easily
(and link to a doc explaining how - step-by-step very straightforward,
with an example of .asf.yml to copy


For reference, the default subject templates for issues/PRs would 
translate to the following .asf.yaml configuration:


github:
  custom_subjects:
close_issue:   "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} closed issue 
#{issue_id}: {title}"
close_pr:  "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} closed pull request 
#{pr_id}: {title}"
comment_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on issue 
#{issue_id}: {title}"
comment_pr:"[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on pull 
request #{pr_id}: {title}"
diffcomment:   "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on a diff 
in pull request #{pr_id}: {title}"
merge_pr:  "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} merged pull request 
#{pr_id}: {title}"
new_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} opened a new issue, 
#{issue_id}: {title}"
new_pr:"[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} opened a new pull 
request, #{pr_id}: {title}"




* all the rest - why you are doing it, the context etc. while
interesting and super important for you and necessary to add should be
in a clear section which is marked as "you do not need to read it -
only if you are interested".

All those comments from someone who writes even longer emails than you
so, take it with a grain of salt.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:13 AM Gilles Sadowski  wrote:


Hello.

Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
See inline comment.

Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
 a écrit :


Hi,

Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.

Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?

Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to be 
made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their .asf.yml 
files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.

So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.

What do you folks think?


Chris


--


Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

over the years have we added additional options for discussing project matters 
on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email lists, such 
as JIRA and GitHub.
Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
participating without requiring yet another login.


Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
not participate (i.e. write a comment).



GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs and 
GitHub Discussions.
Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.

Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many dev-lists 
being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to implement any 
form of threading.
Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
notifications@ or commits@.
Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
“come back” for voting.
Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening in 
a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of archive 
of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.


Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
requiring any form of login [...]".

Regards,
Gilles



In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and bring 
back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
already done so, with great success.

Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for auto-generated 
emails sent out for GitHub.
These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how the 
emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect all 
projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.

For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encour

Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread Jarek Potiuk

Few comments:

* make it shorter
* add TL;DR; explaining in one paragraph what it is about, what effect
it will have on those who receive it
* add - immediately after that - mentioning that while the change is
coming by default to everyone, everyone has a way to go back easily
(and link to a doc explaining how - step-by-step very straightforward,
with an example of .asf.yml to copy
* all the rest - why you are doing it, the context etc. while
interesting and super important for you and necessary to add should be
in a clear section which is marked as "you do not need to read it -
only if you are interested".

All those comments from someone who writes even longer emails than you
so, take it with a grain of salt.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:13 AM Gilles Sadowski  wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
> See inline comment.
>
> Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
>  a écrit :
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> >
> > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
> >
> > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
> > Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change 
> > to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust 
> > their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
> >
> > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be 
> > putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight 
> > and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in 
> > the past.
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> >
> > over the years have we added additional options for discussing project 
> > matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email 
> > lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
> > participating without requiring yet another login.
>
> Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
> Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
> not participate (i.e. write a comment).
>
> >
> > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs 
> > and GitHub Discussions.
> > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our 
> > mailing-lists.
> >
> > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many 
> > dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to 
> > implement any form of threading.
> > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
> > notifications@ or commits@.
> > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and 
> > only “come back” for voting.
> > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
> > sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s 
> > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some 
> > sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
> requiring any form of login [...]".
>
> Regards,
> Gilles
>
> >
> > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and 
> > bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
> > change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
> > already done so, with great success.
> >
> > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for 
> > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how 
> > the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect 
> > all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> >
> > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to 
> > have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> > (This page currently lists the current defaults here 
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lin

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread Gilles Sadowski

Hi Sebb.

Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 11:29, sebb  a écrit :
>
> This was not a fair poll

Sure.
[But suggestions to organize a fair (thus official?) poll are usually ignored.]

> - it was not open long enough.
> Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
> required of projects.
> And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.
>
> I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.

I don't know about that.
INFRA makes decisions too (without asking projects)...

>
> Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
> be forced upon them.

I agree with that, but arguably the earlier changes (that ended up in flooding
the MLs) were also forced on the projects.
In "Commons" at least, there was no poll at all (neither fair, nor otherwise)...

Regards,
Gilles

>>> [...]

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AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

Hi all,

and thanks Mark and Jarek. I fully agree with what you said.

And regarding the email: Tthat’s why I proposed in the draft email a time a few 
weeks in the future
(but not too many) and added links to what a project would need to do to keep 
things the way they are.

If a project deeply cares, that change should be super easy …
I would even volunteer to prepare the PR for this for every project that 
reaches out to me, wanting the old default.
Then all you need to do is click on the merge button of one PR and keep things 
the way they are.

Chris

Von: Jarek Potiuk 
Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 11:38
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
I personally think if it is super easy to change back, I see no
problem with making the change. "Ask for forgiveness not for
permission".

It already happened in the past that someone in the past "forced" the
projects to use previous defaults by the fact of defining it.

What was the process when it was decided then and how the projects
were participating in this decision then?

Sure, change is painful, but if in our process we do not allow for a
change we are stuck with sometimes bad decisions made in the past. And
the only way to change those decisions is well, to change them.

There were recent precedents where changes were forced on the
projects. Example was the need to "approve" every Github workflow of
every external contributor - so it's not that we've never done that.
And (contrary to that change) it was not as easy to go back. It
requires finding a somewhat hidden policy, opening a JIRA and waiting
for approval of INFRA.

In this case it's as easy as making a single commit with an update to .asf.yml.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:29 AM sebb  wrote:
>
> This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
> Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
> required of projects.
> And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.
>
> I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.
>
> Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
> be forced upon them.
>
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
> > prepare the PRs for this:
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
> > However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
> >
> > I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
> > about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
> > applied.
> >
> > I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this 
> > POLL are over).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
> > An: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do 
> > things.
> > But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra 
> > ticket.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
> > implementation progress?
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> > Hi Volkan,
> >
> > well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we 
> > didn’t know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote 
> > on).
> > So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
> > support for the proposal.
> >
> > I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this 
> > to a vote on Members@.
> >
> > But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
> > which will make a wide range of people be informed.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
&g

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread Jarek Potiuk

I personally think if it is super easy to change back, I see no
problem with making the change. "Ask for forgiveness not for
permission".

It already happened in the past that someone in the past "forced" the
projects to use previous defaults by the fact of defining it.

What was the process when it was decided then and how the projects
were participating in this decision then?

Sure, change is painful, but if in our process we do not allow for a
change we are stuck with sometimes bad decisions made in the past. And
the only way to change those decisions is well, to change them.

There were recent precedents where changes were forced on the
projects. Example was the need to "approve" every Github workflow of
every external contributor - so it's not that we've never done that.
And (contrary to that change) it was not as easy to go back. It
requires finding a somewhat hidden policy, opening a JIRA and waiting
for approval of INFRA.

In this case it's as easy as making a single commit with an update to .asf.yml.

J.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:29 AM sebb  wrote:
>
> This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
> Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
> required of projects.
> And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.
>
> I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.
>
> Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
> be forced upon them.
>
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
> > prepare the PRs for this:
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
> > https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
> > However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
> >
> > I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
> > about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
> > applied.
> >
> > I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this 
> > POLL are over).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
> > An: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do 
> > things.
> > But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra 
> > ticket.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
> > implementation progress?
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> > Hi Volkan,
> >
> > well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we 
> > didn’t know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote 
> > on).
> > So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
> > support for the proposal.
> >
> > I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this 
> > to a vote on Members@.
> >
> > But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
> > which will make a wide range of people be informed.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
> > An: Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
> > Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> > generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> > [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
> >
> > Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
> > also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users 
> > to know when they shall expect the changes.
> >
> > Kind regards.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> > Well,
> >
> > stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
> >
> > And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
> > .asf.yaml subjects

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread Mark Thomas


On 04/08/2023 10:28, sebb wrote:

This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
required of projects.
And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.

I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.

Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
be forced upon them.


I disagree. Projects may not even realize that improvement is an option. 
We are trying to make are communities more welcoming / understandable / 
easier to follow so projects should have to explicitly opt out rather 
than explicitly opt in.


I suggest the following:

- announce to projects that the default is changing in X days / weeks
  (or even months) time
- provide instructions for what projects need to do before then to keep
  the existing format
- change the default

Mark





On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  wrote:


Hi all,

as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
prepare the PRs for this:
https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.

I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
applied.

I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this POLL 
are over).

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
An: Volkan Yazıcı 
Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do things.
But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra ticket.

Chris


Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
An: Christofer Dutz 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
implementation progress?

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
Hi Volkan,

well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we didn’t 
know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote on).
So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general support 
for the proposal.

I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this to a 
vote on Members@.

But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
which will make a wide range of people be informed.

Chris


Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
An: Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
[PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]

Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users to 
know when they shall expect the changes.

Kind regards.

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
Well,

stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)

And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
.asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.

Chris


Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
An: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> 
mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
+1

Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:

+1

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
mailto:apache@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Christofer,

As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm

+1

to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being able 
to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had before.

Thanks,
Craig


On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:

Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite form 
anything actionable.

Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking into 
every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen many of our 
lists literally being rendered useless.

Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
percentage of the emails are:

  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
impossible for email clients to correc

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread sebb

This was not a fair poll - it was not open long enough.
Also it is not representative; participation on this list is not
required of projects.
And people participating in the discussion are likely to be in favour.

I don't think Comdev should be making decisions on behalf of other projects.

Note: I am not against alllowing projects to change, but it should not
be forced upon them.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 15:56, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
> prepare the PRs for this:
> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
> However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.
>
> I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
> about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
> applied.
>
> I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this POLL 
> are over).
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
> An: Volkan Yazıcı 
> Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do things.
> But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra ticket.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
> An: Christofer Dutz 
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
> implementation progress?
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> Hi Volkan,
>
> well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we didn’t 
> know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote on).
> So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general 
> support for the proposal.
>
> I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this to 
> a vote on Members@.
>
> But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
> which will make a wide range of people be informed.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
> An: Christofer Dutz 
> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> [PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]
>
> Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
> also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users to 
> know when they shall expect the changes.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
> mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> Well,
>
> stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
>
> And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
> .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
> An: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> 
> mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> +1
>
> Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
> mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:
> >+1
> >
> >On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
> >mailto:apache@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Christofer,
> >>
> >> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
> >> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
> >> before.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz 
> >> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
> >> > form anything actionable.
> >> >
> >> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
> >> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have see

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-04 Thread sebb

NAK - I don't think the defaults should be changed; instead provide
docs on how to do so
Don't force projects to change if they don't want to

On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 at 07:46, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
>
> Well,
>
> stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)
>
> And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
> .asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Richard Zowalla 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to 
> generate GitHub integration email subjecs?
> +1
>
> Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk :
> >+1
> >
> >On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Christofer,
> >>
> >> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
> >> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
> >> before.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz  
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
> >> > form anything actionable.
> >> >
> >> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
> >> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
> >> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
> >> >
> >> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a 
> >> > large percentage of the emails are:
> >> >
> >> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
> >> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
> >> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
> >> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
> >> > phones.
> >> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists 
> >> > (notifications@, commits@), having left over only skeletons in which 
> >> > every now and then a vote is being handled.
> >> >
> >> > My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
> >> > emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more 
> >> > condensed version.
> >> >
> >> > With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured 
> >> > the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
> >> >
> >> > Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
> >> > changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be 
> >> > in favor of such a change than not.
> >> > Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
> >> > specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default 
> >> > .asf.yaml snippet.
> >> >
> >> > Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as 
> >> > “[ISSUE]”, “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add 
> >> > much information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the 
> >> > shorter version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email 
> >> > clients.
> >> >
> >> > Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> >> > Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> >> >
> >> > Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
> >> > happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
> >> >
> >> > I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
> >> > since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
> >> >
> >> > I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our 
> >> > core principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the 
> >> > list, it didn’t happen”).
> >> >
> >> > You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by 
> >> > you folks here.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Chris
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Craig L Russell
> >> c...@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >-
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread Gilles Sadowski

Hello.

Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
See inline comment.

Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
 a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
>
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to 
> be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their 
> .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
> the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
> date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project 
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email 
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
> participating without requiring yet another login.

Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
not participate (i.e. write a comment).

>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs 
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many 
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to 
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
> notifications@ or commits@.
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
> “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
> sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening 
> in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of 
> archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.

Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
requiring any form of login [...]".

Regards,
Gilles

>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and 
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for 
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how 
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect 
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
>
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have 
> a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>  as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time 
> to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

2023-08-04 Thread sebb

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 at 09:44, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?

(P)PMCs, but see below.

> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on 
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to 
> be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their 
> .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting 
> the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using 
> date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
>
> What do you folks think?

-1

I don't think the default should be changed.

AIUI, projects can now change it for themselves.
The email should be about how to do so.

Don't force projects to opt out of a change that they do not want or need.
Instead provide them with the means to change if they wish.
Do this  by providing clear documentation on how to do so.

Sebb

>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project 
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email 
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows 
> participating without requiring yet another login.

Not strictly true - a GH login is required.

>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs 
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many 
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to 
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as 
> notifications@ or commits@.

to lists => to new lists

> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only 
> “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen” 
> sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening 
> in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of 
> archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and 
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to 
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have 
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for 
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how 
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect 
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.

hat => that

> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have 
> a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly: 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>  as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time 
> to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

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[DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers

Hi,

Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.

Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?

Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to be
made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their .asf.yml
files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.

So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting
the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using
date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.

What do you folks think?

Chris

Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},

over the years have we added additional options for discussing project matters
on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email lists, such
as JIRA and GitHub.
Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
participating without requiring yet another login.

GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs and
GitHub Discussions.
Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.

Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many dev-lists
being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to implement any
form of threading.
Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
notifications@ or commits@.
Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only
“come back” for voting.
Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen”
sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening in
a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of archive
of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.

In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and bring
back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
already done so, with great success.

Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for auto-generated
emails sent out for GitHub.
These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how the
emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect all
projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.

For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have a
look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
(This page currently lists the current defaults here
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
as well as the proposed changes)
We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time to
prepare.

Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC

AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-03 Thread Christofer Dutz

Hi all,

as there seems to be general consent on this, I have taken the liberty to 
prepare the PRs for this:
https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-event-notifier/pull/12
https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-github-discussions-notifier/pull/2
However, have I marked them as DRAFT so they aren’t executed today.

I think it would make sense to send out an email first, notifying projects 
about the coming changes and to define a date to which the changes will be 
applied.

I’d be happy to prepare the email and send it out (once the 72h for this POLL 
are over).

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:47
An: Volkan Yazıcı 
Betreff: AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
Still giving this a bit more time (72 hours in total) as we usually do things.
But yeah … I guess as soon as that time is over, I’ll create an infra ticket.

Chris

Von: Volkan Yazıcı 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:39
An: Christofer Dutz 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
Check. Is there (or will there be) an INFRA ticket that I can follow the 
implementation progress?

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 9:28 AM Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
Hi Volkan,

well I won’t be doing anything … also is this not really a vote (as we didn’t 
know if this is something we actually are allowed or able to vote on).
So my plan is to show this thread to Infra to show that there’s general support 
for the proposal.

I really hope they won’t let me jump another hoop, asking me to bring this to a 
vote on Members@.

But sure I think this is worth sending out to committers@ or similar list, 
which will make a wide range of people be informed.

Chris

Von: Volkan Yazıcı mailto:vol...@yazi.ci>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 09:22
An: Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>>
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
[PM'ing to avoid derailing the vote thread.]

Christofer, in the email where you will announce the result, would you mind 
also sharing when the change will take place, please? This will help users to 
know when they shall expect the changes.

Kind regards.

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:46 AM Christofer Dutz 
mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
Well,

stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)

And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
.asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.

Chris

Von: Richard Zowalla mailto:rich...@zowalla.com>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
An: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> 
mailto:dev@community.apache.org>>
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
+1

Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk 
mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>>:
>+1
>
>On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell 
>mailto:apache@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christofer,
>>
>> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
>>
>> +1
>>
>> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
>> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
>> before.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Craig
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz 
>> > mailto:christofer.d...@c-ware.de>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
>> > form anything actionable.
>> >
>> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
>> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
>> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>> >
>> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
>> > percentage of the emails are:
>> >
>> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
>> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
>> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
>> > phones.
>> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
>> > commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a 
>> > vote is being handled.
>> >
>> > My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
>> > emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much mo

AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-02 Thread Christofer Dutz

Well,

stating the obvious, I’ll add my +1 ;-)

And yes Craig, I said the defaults … if you have explicitly configured your 
.asf.yaml subjects, they are left unchanged.

Chris


Von: Richard Zowalla 
Datum: Mittwoch, 2. August 2023 um 08:10
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
+1

Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk :
>+1
>
>On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christofer,
>>
>> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
>>
>> +1
>>
>> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
>> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
>> before.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Craig
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz  
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
>> > form anything actionable.
>> >
>> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
>> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
>> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>> >
>> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
>> > percentage of the emails are:
>> >
>> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
>> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
>> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
>> > phones.
>> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
>> > commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a 
>> > vote is being handled.
>> >
>> > My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
>> > emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more 
>> > condensed version.
>> >
>> > With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured 
>> > the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
>> >
>> > Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
>> > changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in 
>> > favor of such a change than not.
>> > Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
>> > specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default 
>> > .asf.yaml snippet.
>> >
>> > Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”, 
>> > “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much 
>> > information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the 
>> > shorter version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email 
>> > clients.
>> >
>> > Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
>> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
>> > Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
>> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
>> >
>> > Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
>> > happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
>> >
>> > I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
>> > since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
>> >
>> > I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core 
>> > principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it 
>> > didn’t happen”).
>> >
>> > You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you 
>> > folks here.
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> c...@apache.org
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-02 Thread Richard Zowalla

+1

Am 2. August 2023 07:47:25 MESZ schrieb Jarek Potiuk :
>+1
>
>On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christofer,
>>
>> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
>>
>> +1
>>
>> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
>> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
>> before.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Craig
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz  
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
>> > form anything actionable.
>> >
>> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
>> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
>> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>> >
>> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
>> > percentage of the emails are:
>> >
>> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
>> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
>> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
>> > phones.
>> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
>> > commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a 
>> > vote is being handled.
>> >
>> > My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
>> > emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more 
>> > condensed version.
>> >
>> > With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured 
>> > the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
>> >
>> > Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
>> > changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in 
>> > favor of such a change than not.
>> > Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
>> > specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default 
>> > .asf.yaml snippet.
>> >
>> > Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”, 
>> > “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much 
>> > information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the 
>> > shorter version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email 
>> > clients.
>> >
>> > Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
>> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
>> > Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
>> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
>> >
>> > Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
>> > happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
>> >
>> > I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
>> > since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
>> >
>> > I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core 
>> > principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it 
>> > didn’t happen”).
>> >
>> > You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you 
>> > folks here.
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> c...@apache.org
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Jarek Potiuk

+1

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 2:15 AM Craig Russell  wrote:
>
> Hi Christofer,
>
> As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm
>
> +1
>
> to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being 
> able to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had 
> before.
>
> Thanks,
> Craig
>
> > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
> >
> > Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite 
> > form anything actionable.
> >
> > Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking 
> > into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen 
> > many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
> >
> > Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
> > percentage of the emails are:
> >
> >  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
> > impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
> >  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
> > header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
> > phones.
> >  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
> > commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a 
> > vote is being handled.
> >
> > My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
> > emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed 
> > version.
> >
> > With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured 
> > the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
> >
> > Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
> > changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in 
> > favor of such a change than not.
> > Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
> > specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default 
> > .asf.yaml snippet.
> >
> > Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”, 
> > “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much 
> > information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter 
> > version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.
> >
> > Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> > Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> >
> > Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
> > happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
> >
> > I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
> > since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
> >
> > I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core 
> > principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it 
> > didn’t happen”).
> >
> > You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you 
> > folks here.
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
> Craig L Russell
> c...@apache.org
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Craig Russell

Hi Christofer,

As long as projects with their own settings can continue to use them, I'm

+1

to change the defaults for all projects. If the projects don't like being able 
to use their lists again, they can always go back to what they had before.

Thanks,
Craig

> On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:16, Christofer Dutz  wrote:
> 
> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite form 
> anything actionable.
> 
> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking into 
> every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen many of 
> our lists literally being rendered useless.
> 
> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
> percentage of the emails are:
> 
>  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
> impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
> header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
> phones.
>  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
> commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a vote 
> is being handled.
> 
> My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
> emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed 
> version.
> 
> With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured the 
> format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
> 
> Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
> changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in 
> favor of such a change than not.
> Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
> specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default .asf.yaml 
> snippet.
> 
> Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”, 
> “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much information 
> to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter version 
> allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.
> 
> Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> 
> Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
> happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
> 
> I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
> since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
> 
> I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core 
> principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it 
> didn’t happen”).
> 
> You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you 
> folks here.
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> 

Craig L Russell
c...@apache.org


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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Ayush Saxena

+1,
Looks Good!!!

-Ayush

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 at 19:08, Johan Corveleyn  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 3:29 PM Volkan Yazıcı  wrote:
> > @Gary, see the date range in the URLs.
> > You might need to manually perform an empty search in those ranges.
>
> It seems those date ranges in the query string are only taken into
> account after a refresh.
> Perhaps on first request, if you have no session on lists.a.o, a
> session is created and a cookie is set, and the query string is
> somehow ignored.
>
> --
> Johan
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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>

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Johan Corveleyn

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 3:29 PM Volkan Yazıcı  wrote:
> @Gary, see the date range in the URLs.
> You might need to manually perform an empty search in those ranges.

It seems those date ranges in the query string are only taken into
account after a refresh.
Perhaps on first request, if you have no session on lists.a.o, a
session is created and a cookie is set, and the query string is
somehow ignored.

-- 
Johan

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Volkan Yazıcı

+1

@Christofer, thanks for taking care of this.
The improvement is undeniable.

@Gary, see the date range in the URLs.
You might need to manually perform an empty search in those ranges.

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 2:16 PM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite
> form anything actionable.
>
> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking
> into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen
> many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>
> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large
> percentage of the emails are:
>
>   *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it
> impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>   *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the
> header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile
> phones.
>   *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@,
> commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a
> vote is being handled.
>
> My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub
> emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed
> version.
>
> With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured
> the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
>
> Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these
> changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in
> favor of such a change than not.
> Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by
> specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default
> .asf.yaml snippet.
>
> Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”,
> “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much
> information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter
> version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.
>
> Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
>
> Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something
> happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
>
> I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if
> since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
>
> I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core
> principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it
> didn’t happen”).
>
> You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you
> folks here.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>

AW: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Christofer Dutz

Try this:
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-1|dto=2023-1-15:

Not sure why it didn’t work … if it doesn’t again, just select the date range 
on that list from 01.01.2023 to 15.01.2023

Chris


Von: Gary Gregory 
Datum: Dienstag, 1. August 2023 um 14:55
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate 
GitHub integration email subjecs?
I can't tell the difference between

https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
and
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18

They both use "[PR]". What am I missing?

Gary

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 8:17 AM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite
> form anything actionable.
>
> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking
> into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen
> many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>
> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large
> percentage of the emails are:
>
>   *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it
> impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>   *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the
> header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile
> phones.
>   *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@,
> commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a
> vote is being handled.
>
> My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub
> emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed
> version.
>
> With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured
> the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
>
> Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these
> changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in
> favor of such a change than not.
> Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by
> specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default
> .asf.yaml snippet.
>
> Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”,
> “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much
> information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter
> version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.
>
> Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
>
> Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something
> happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
>
> I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if
> since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
>
> I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core
> principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it
> didn’t happen”).
>
> You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you
> folks here.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread hans . van . akelyen

+1 for making this change, it will make the mailinglists a lot more readable 
for humans.

@Gary: For example you have multiple mails around a single PR that are not 
consolidated into a single thread because the username of who commented is in 
the subject.

Cheers,
Hans
On 1 Aug 2023 at 15:06 +0200, dev@community.apache.org, wrote:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Gilles Sadowski

Hi.

Le mar. 1 août 2023 à 14:17, Christofer Dutz
 a écrit :
>
> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite form 
> anything actionable.
>
> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking into 
> every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen many of 
> our lists literally being rendered useless.
>
> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
> percentage of the emails are:
>
>   *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
> impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>   *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
> header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile 
> phones.
>   *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
> commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a vote 
> is being handled.
>
> My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub 
> emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed 
> version.
>
> With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured the 
> format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
>
> Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these 
> changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in 
> favor of such a change than not.
> Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
> specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default .asf.yaml 
> snippet.
>
> Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”, 
> “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much information 
> to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter version 
> allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.
>
> Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
>
> Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
> happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
>
> I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if 
> since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
>
> I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core 
> principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it 
> didn’t happen”).
>
> You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you 
> folks here.

+1

But it's only part of the issue that MLs (made for human-consumption) are
more and more colonized with auto-generated content that is next to useless
(if just because there is so much of it).  Such "content" keeps piling up.  In
my case, after having reached the point where I needed to delete-click on
at least 10 times more such bot-generated messages than "legitimate" ones,
it led to establishing a filter where they would go directly to the trash (with
the risk of missing the one important message among the hundreds that
should not, IMHO, end up there in the first place).

Best regards,
Gilles

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Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Gary Gregory

I can't tell the difference between

https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
and
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18

They both use "[PR]". What am I missing?

Gary

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 8:17 AM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite
> form anything actionable.
>
> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking
> into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen
> many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
>
> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large
> percentage of the emails are:
>
>   *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it
> impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>   *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the
> header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile
> phones.
>   *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@,
> commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a
> vote is being handled.
>
> My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub
> emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed
> version.
>
> With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured
> the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.
>
> Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these
> changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in
> favor of such a change than not.
> Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by
> specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default
> .asf.yaml snippet.
>
> Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”,
> “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much
> information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter
> version allows displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.
>
> Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
>
> Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something
> happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
>
> I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if
> since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.
>
> I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core
> principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it
> didn’t happen”).
>
> You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you
> folks here.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>

Re: [POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread rbowen

+1 to making this change. It would immediately make our mailing lists
more consumable and welcoming to actual humans.

Coupled with a page explaining how this works (Oh! Look! There's
already one at
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html ) this
would be a great service to our communities.



On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 12:16 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t
> quite form anything actionable.
> 
> Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently
> looking into every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I
> have seen many of our lists literally being rendered useless.
> 
> Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a
> large percentage of the emails are:
> 
>   *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes
> it impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
>   *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of
> the header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on
> mobile phones.
>   *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists
> (notifications@, commits@), having left over only skeletons in which
> every now and then a vote is being handled.
> 
> My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated
> GitHub emails for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much
> more condensed version.
> 
> With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually
> configured the format of the emails, instantly get readable lists
> again.
> 
> Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these
> changes, but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would
> be in favor of such a change than not.
> Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format,
> by specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a
> default .asf.yaml snippet.
> 
> Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as
> “[ISSUE]”, “[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not
> add much information to the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t
> and the shorter version allows displaying more of the subject on
> mobile email clients.
> 
> Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> 
> Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display
> something happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow
> nicely via email:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc
> 
> I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even
> if since my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that
> too.
> 
> I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our
> core principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the
> list, it didn’t happen”).
> 
> You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval
> by you folks here.
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> 


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[POLL] Should we ask Infra to change the defaults used to generate GitHub integration email subjecs?

2023-08-01 Thread Christofer Dutz

Starting a new thread as the last one sort of dried up and didn’t quite form 
anything actionable.

Being subscribed to many of our mailing-lists and most recently looking into 
every project, dev-lists when reviewing board reports, I have seen many of our 
lists literally being rendered useless.

Useless, because it’s almost impossible to follow these lists, as a large 
percentage of the emails are:

  *   Generated emails and the way they are currently generated makes it 
impossible for email clients to correctly display them as threads.
  *   Contain so much redundant information, that the actual start of the 
header that I’m interested in reading is usually not readable on mobile phones.
  *   Most discussions have been moved away from the lists (notifications@, 
commits@), having left over only skeletons in which every now and then a vote 
is being handled.

My proposal is to change the default settings for auto-generated GitHub emails 
for all projects (not just the new ones) to be a much more condensed version.

With these changes, all existing lists, that haven’t manually configured the 
format of the emails, instantly get readable lists again.

Some would argue that there might be projects that could object these changes, 
but I would on the other hand bet that more projects would be in favor of such 
a change than not.
Those who don’t want a change, can simply go back to the old format, by 
specifying it in one commit for which we can even provide a default .asf.yaml 
snippet.

Some people expressed the wish to have longer prefixes, such as “[ISSUE]”, 
“[PULL-REQUEST]” or “[DISCUSSION]” however do these not add much information to 
the email that “[I]”, “[PR]” and “[D]” don’t and the shorter version allows 
displaying more of the subject on mobile email clients.

Here’s an example of a project list before the changes:
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
Here’s an example of the same list after using the other defaults:
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18

Here’s an example on how even ponymail is now able to display something 
happening on GitHub as a discussion you can also follow nicely via email:
https://lists.apache.org/thread/rnr9tjx9rsnqc7b5nwcf68qnp5bkr9hc

I would propose to keep the repository as part of the templates, even if since 
my PR last week was merged it’s now possible to omit that too.

I care deeply about our projects, and I would really hate to see our core 
principles being lost more and more (“If it didn’t happen on the list, it 
didn’t happen”).

You would make me really happy if I could get some general approval by you 
folks here.


Chris

Re: AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-29 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz

Christofer Dutz  wrote :

>
> ... Infra has been giving me quite some pushback on these changes...


I think backing your request by a comdev pmc vote can help, as it's then a
group representing multiple projects that makes the request, instead of
just you.

Bertrand

Re: AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-28 Thread Richard Zowalla

We (Apache OpenNLP, Apache TomEE) have also implemented the suggestion you have 
made and I’m also very pleased with the results ;-)

We include the repo name too.



Am 28. Juli 2023 17:02:26 MESZ schrieb Christofer Dutz 
:
>Well … that’s a bit of the problem
>
>Infra has been giving me quite some pushback on these changes.
>That’s why I didn’t just start creating PRs, but also discussing this matter 
>in way too many mailing-lists.
>
>So, I could post a perma-link to this thread and hope they’ll accept it,
>Otherwise we’ll have to sort of find out “where to vote” first and then “do a 
>vote” next.
>
>Chris
>
>
>Von: hans.van.akel...@gmail.com 
>Datum: Freitag, 28. Juli 2023 um 16:17
>An: dev@community.apache.org 
>Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
>Does this really need a vote?
>
>If Infra agrees to change the defaults and it makes your life checking the 
>mailing lists simpler it’s a win for everyone.
>We (Apache Hop) have also implemented the suggestion you have made and I’m 
>very pleased with the results.
>
>As long as it is communicated in a timely manner and with a way for projects 
>to revert it (which would be providing the lines we should add to the asf.yml 
>to keep the current format) I do not really see an issue.
>
>Though I do think the default format should still include the repository name.
>It might be overkill for single repository projects but I think most projects 
>have multiple repositories (even PLC4X has 3 of them so not sure how you are 
>keeping the mails separated)
>
>
>Cheers,
>Hans
>On 28 Jul 2023 at 15:41 +0200, Christofer Dutz , 
>wrote:
>> Well,
>>
>> That’s the problem … I am not sure who has the authority to vote on this.
>> The only thing I know is that when I tried bringing this up, I was guided 
>> from A to B, then from B to C, and on it goes.
>>
>> I think the issue is one rendering the mailing lists of many of our projects 
>> pretty much useless, which I consider a community problem.
>> However, ComDev doesn’t have any form of authority besides deciding which 
>> stickers to order ;-)
>> I would however like to see ComDev get a bit more teeth and actually start 
>> having a say in community related topics.
>>
>> I could imagine that I could also ask on Members, but it sort of feels like 
>> carrying a bloody steak into the hungry lion’s den.
>>
>> So … anyone got any pointers to if and where we should decide on defaults 
>> like this?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: rbo...@rcbowen.com 
>> Datum: Freitag, 28. Juli 2023 um 15:11
>> An: dev@community.apache.org 
>> Betreff: Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
>> On Thu, 2023-07-27 at 19:46 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
>> > Ok,
>> >
>> > so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I
>> > prepared a PR and that was merged today.
>> > Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
>> > variable ;-)
>> >
>> > I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
>> >
>> > So … where are we on this discussion?
>> > I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
>> > (including the repository).
>> >
>> > What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
>>
>> Who's voting? That is, who has the authority to make this change? Yes,
>> I'm in favor of such a change, but surely Infra are the folks that have
>> the actual reins here, right?
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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AW: AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-28 Thread Christofer Dutz

Well … that’s a bit of the problem

Infra has been giving me quite some pushback on these changes.
That’s why I didn’t just start creating PRs, but also discussing this matter in 
way too many mailing-lists.

So, I could post a perma-link to this thread and hope they’ll accept it,
Otherwise we’ll have to sort of find out “where to vote” first and then “do a 
vote” next.

Chris

Von: hans.van.akel...@gmail.com 
Datum: Freitag, 28. Juli 2023 um 16:17
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Does this really need a vote?

If Infra agrees to change the defaults and it makes your life checking the 
mailing lists simpler it’s a win for everyone.
We (Apache Hop) have also implemented the suggestion you have made and I’m very 
pleased with the results.

As long as it is communicated in a timely manner and with a way for projects to 
revert it (which would be providing the lines we should add to the asf.yml to 
keep the current format) I do not really see an issue.

Though I do think the default format should still include the repository name.
It might be overkill for single repository projects but I think most projects 
have multiple repositories (even PLC4X has 3 of them so not sure how you are 
keeping the mails separated)

Cheers,
Hans
On 28 Jul 2023 at 15:41 +0200, Christofer Dutz , 
wrote:
> Well,
>
> That’s the problem … I am not sure who has the authority to vote on this.
> The only thing I know is that when I tried bringing this up, I was guided 
> from A to B, then from B to C, and on it goes.
>
> I think the issue is one rendering the mailing lists of many of our projects 
> pretty much useless, which I consider a community problem.
> However, ComDev doesn’t have any form of authority besides deciding which 
> stickers to order ;-)
> I would however like to see ComDev get a bit more teeth and actually start 
> having a say in community related topics.
>
> I could imagine that I could also ask on Members, but it sort of feels like 
> carrying a bloody steak into the hungry lion’s den.
>
> So … anyone got any pointers to if and where we should decide on defaults 
> like this?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: rbo...@rcbowen.com 
> Datum: Freitag, 28. Juli 2023 um 15:11
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> On Thu, 2023-07-27 at 19:46 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > Ok,
> >
> > so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I
> > prepared a PR and that was merged today.
> > Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> > variable ;-)
> >
> > I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
> >
> > So … where are we on this discussion?
> > I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> > (including the repository).
> >
> > What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
>
> Who's voting? That is, who has the authority to make this change? Yes,
> I'm in favor of such a change, but surely Infra are the folks that have
> the actual reins here, right?
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-28 Thread hans . van . akelyen

Does this really need a vote?

If Infra agrees to change the defaults and it makes your life checking the 
mailing lists simpler it’s a win for everyone.
We (Apache Hop) have also implemented the suggestion you have made and I’m very 
pleased with the results.

As long as it is communicated in a timely manner and with a way for projects to 
revert it (which would be providing the lines we should add to the asf.yml to 
keep the current format) I do not really see an issue.

Though I do think the default format should still include the repository name.
It might be overkill for single repository projects but I think most projects 
have multiple repositories (even PLC4X has 3 of them so not sure how you are 
keeping the mails separated)


Cheers,
Hans
On 28 Jul 2023 at 15:41 +0200, Christofer Dutz , 
wrote:
> Well,
>
> That’s the problem … I am not sure who has the authority to vote on this.
> The only thing I know is that when I tried bringing this up, I was guided 
> from A to B, then from B to C, and on it goes.
>
> I think the issue is one rendering the mailing lists of many of our projects 
> pretty much useless, which I consider a community problem.
> However, ComDev doesn’t have any form of authority besides deciding which 
> stickers to order ;-)
> I would however like to see ComDev get a bit more teeth and actually start 
> having a say in community related topics.
>
> I could imagine that I could also ask on Members, but it sort of feels like 
> carrying a bloody steak into the hungry lion’s den.
>
> So … anyone got any pointers to if and where we should decide on defaults 
> like this?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: rbo...@rcbowen.com 
> Datum: Freitag, 28. Juli 2023 um 15:11
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> On Thu, 2023-07-27 at 19:46 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > Ok,
> >
> > so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I
> > prepared a PR and that was merged today.
> > Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> > variable ;-)
> >
> > I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
> >
> > So … where are we on this discussion?
> > I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> > (including the repository).
> >
> > What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
>
> Who's voting? That is, who has the authority to make this change? Yes,
> I'm in favor of such a change, but surely Infra are the folks that have
> the actual reins here, right?
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

AW: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-28 Thread Christofer Dutz

Well,

That’s the problem … I am not sure who has the authority to vote on this.
The only thing I know is that when I tried bringing this up, I was guided from 
A to B, then from B to C, and on it goes.

I think the issue is one rendering the mailing lists of many of our projects 
pretty much useless, which I consider a community problem.
However, ComDev doesn’t have any form of authority besides deciding which 
stickers to order ;-)
I would however like to see ComDev get a bit more teeth and actually start 
having a say in community related topics.

I could imagine that I could also ask on Members, but it sort of feels like 
carrying a bloody steak into the hungry lion’s den.

So … anyone got any pointers to if and where we should decide on defaults like 
this?

Chris

Von: rbo...@rcbowen.com 
Datum: Freitag, 28. Juli 2023 um 15:11
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
On Thu, 2023-07-27 at 19:46 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> Ok,
>
> so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I
> prepared a PR and that was merged today.
> Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> variable ;-)
>
> I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
>
> So … where are we on this discussion?
> I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> (including the repository).
>
> What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?

Who's voting? That is, who has the authority to make this change? Yes,
I'm in favor of such a change, but surely Infra are the folks that have
the actual reins here, right?

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-28 Thread rbowen

On Thu, 2023-07-27 at 16:11 -0400, Kelly Oglesbee wrote:
> exactly what emails are you changing, because I'm experiencing
> problems
> with my emails on my device?

Can you elaborate? What problems are you experiencing? How can the
situation be improved?


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-28 Thread rbowen

On Thu, 2023-07-27 at 19:46 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> Ok,
> 
> so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I
> prepared a PR and that was merged today.
> Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> variable ;-)
> 
> I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
> 
> So … where are we on this discussion?
> I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> (including the repository).
> 
> What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?

Who's voting? That is, who has the authority to make this change? Yes,
I'm in favor of such a change, but surely Infra are the folks that have
the actual reins here, right?

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-27 Thread Kelly Oglesbee

Yu mid showing me the steps involve in this because Im a new comitter

On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 4:35 PM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi Kelly,
>
> Well, I’m proposing to change the defaults for email automatically sent
> from GitHub for PRs, Issues and Discussions.
> I’m not changing anything right now … I just had one check removed that
> validates the custom patterns a project has in its .asf.yaml
> So technically this change shouldn’t have changed anything at all … it
> just allows you to do it now, and I guess so far only PLC4X uses this
> feature.
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
> Datum: Donnerstag, 27. Juli 2023 um 22:12
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> exactly what emails are you changing, because I'm experiencing problems
> with my emails on my device?
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:52 PM Gary Gregory  wrote:
>
> > I'm OK with a vote, make sure you explain what -1 means in this context
> > (count vs veto)
> >
> >
> > TY!
> > Gary
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:46 PM Christofer Dutz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ok,
> > >
> > > so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I prepared
> a
> > > PR and that was merged today.
> > > Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> > variable
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
> > >
> > > So … where are we on this discussion?
> > > I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> > > (including the repository).
> > >
> > > What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > > Datum: Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2023 um 14:35
> > > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So, I’ve tracked down the requirement to the test, that requires the
> > > “repository” variable,
> > > But it doesn’t really explain why it’s required. I was told that it’s
> for
> > > some 20 year old reason, however that simply can’t apply to the custom
> > > email templates for GitHub ;-)
> > >
> > > So, I opened a discussion thread
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/wz6f71wovzsz0nk6bdpgs8m17f07o2ko
> > > Feel free to add your comments to it.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > > Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 16:29
> > > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > > I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system
> > > starts yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
> > > If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)
> > >
> > > Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
> > > Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
> > > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > > Why id this necessary?
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz <
> christofer.d...@c-ware.de
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Phil,
> > > >
> > > > Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> > > > seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> > > > For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> > > > subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t
> > > interrupt
> > > > my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
> > > >
> > > > And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR]
> > for
> > > > Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> > > > I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a
> > PR,
> > > > Issue or Discussion.
> > > > Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> > > > really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> > > > general-purpose discussion.
> > > > In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before …
> > everything
> > > > was just a discussion.
> > > > But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in fav

AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-27 Thread Christofer Dutz

Hi Kelly,

Well, I’m proposing to change the defaults for email automatically sent from 
GitHub for PRs, Issues and Discussions.
I’m not changing anything right now … I just had one check removed that 
validates the custom patterns a project has in its .asf.yaml
So technically this change shouldn’t have changed anything at all … it just 
allows you to do it now, and I guess so far only PLC4X uses this feature.

Chris

Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
Datum: Donnerstag, 27. Juli 2023 um 22:12
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
exactly what emails are you changing, because I'm experiencing problems
with my emails on my device?

On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:52 PM Gary Gregory  wrote:

> I'm OK with a vote, make sure you explain what -1 means in this context
> (count vs veto)
>
>
> TY!
> Gary
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:46 PM Christofer Dutz 
> wrote:
>
> > Ok,
> >
> > so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I prepared a
> > PR and that was merged today.
> > Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> variable
> > ;-)
> >
> > I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
> >
> > So … where are we on this discussion?
> > I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> > (including the repository).
> >
> > What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2023 um 14:35
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, I’ve tracked down the requirement to the test, that requires the
> > “repository” variable,
> > But it doesn’t really explain why it’s required. I was told that it’s for
> > some 20 year old reason, however that simply can’t apply to the custom
> > email templates for GitHub ;-)
> >
> > So, I opened a discussion thread
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/wz6f71wovzsz0nk6bdpgs8m17f07o2ko
> > Feel free to add your comments to it.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 16:29
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system
> > starts yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
> > If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)
> >
> > Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
> > Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > Why id this necessary?
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Phil,
> > >
> > > Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> > > seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> > > For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> > > subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t
> > interrupt
> > > my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
> > >
> > > And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR]
> for
> > > Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> > > I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a
> PR,
> > > Issue or Discussion.
> > > Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> > > really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> > > general-purpose discussion.
> > > In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before …
> everything
> > > was just a discussion.
> > > But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in favor of
> > the
> > > smaller ones above [PULL-REQUEST], [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION] …
> > > well … I guess that was why I chose these defaults for the projects I
> > > could change it ;-)
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: Phil Steitz 
> > > Datum: Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 20:57
> > > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > > +1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
> > > commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if
> the
> > > tooling would support or

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-27 Thread Kelly Oglesbee

exactly what emails are you changing, because I'm experiencing problems
with my emails on my device?

On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:52 PM Gary Gregory  wrote:

> I'm OK with a vote, make sure you explain what -1 means in this context
> (count vs veto)
>
>
> TY!
> Gary
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:46 PM Christofer Dutz 
> wrote:
>
> > Ok,
> >
> > so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I prepared a
> > PR and that was merged today.
> > Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository”
> variable
> > ;-)
> >
> > I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
> >
> > So … where are we on this discussion?
> > I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> > (including the repository).
> >
> > What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2023 um 14:35
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, I’ve tracked down the requirement to the test, that requires the
> > “repository” variable,
> > But it doesn’t really explain why it’s required. I was told that it’s for
> > some 20 year old reason, however that simply can’t apply to the custom
> > email templates for GitHub ;-)
> >
> > So, I opened a discussion thread
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/wz6f71wovzsz0nk6bdpgs8m17f07o2ko
> > Feel free to add your comments to it.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Christofer Dutz 
> > Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 16:29
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system
> > starts yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
> > If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)
> >
> > Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
> > Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > Why id this necessary?
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Phil,
> > >
> > > Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> > > seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> > > For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> > > subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t
> > interrupt
> > > my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
> > >
> > > And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR]
> for
> > > Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> > > I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a
> PR,
> > > Issue or Discussion.
> > > Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> > > really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> > > general-purpose discussion.
> > > In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before …
> everything
> > > was just a discussion.
> > > But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in favor of
> > the
> > > smaller ones above [PULL-REQUEST], [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION] …
> > > well … I guess that was why I chose these defaults for the projects I
> > > could change it ;-)
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: Phil Steitz 
> > > Datum: Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 20:57
> > > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > > +1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
> > > commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if
> the
> > > tooling would support or can be customized for Commons, but one thing
> > that
> > > would help would be to uniformly drop the word "Commons", so we go back
> > to
> > > what we did when we actually used the dev list for discussion
> > [Commons-Foo]
> > > is just [Foo].  There is also no value in the [GitHub] prefix in the
> > > messages from there.  All PRs come from there.  Probably should talk
> > about
> > > this on Commons-dev (maybe with some special decorations on the subject
> > > line so people will see it amidst all

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-27 Thread Gary Gregory

I'm OK with a vote, make sure you explain what -1 means in this context
(count vs veto)


TY!
Gary

On Thu, Jul 27, 2023, 3:46 PM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Ok,
>
> so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I prepared a
> PR and that was merged today.
> Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository” variable
> ;-)
>
> I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.
>
> So … where are we on this discussion?
> I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested
> (including the repository).
>
> What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2023 um 14:35
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> Hi all,
>
> So, I’ve tracked down the requirement to the test, that requires the
> “repository” variable,
> But it doesn’t really explain why it’s required. I was told that it’s for
> some 20 year old reason, however that simply can’t apply to the custom
> email templates for GitHub ;-)
>
> So, I opened a discussion thread
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/wz6f71wovzsz0nk6bdpgs8m17f07o2ko
> Feel free to add your comments to it.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Christofer Dutz 
> Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 16:29
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system
> starts yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
> If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)
>
> Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
> Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> Why id this necessary?
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Phil,
> >
> > Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> > seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> > For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> > subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t
> interrupt
> > my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
> >
> > And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR] for
> > Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> > I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a PR,
> > Issue or Discussion.
> > Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> > really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> > general-purpose discussion.
> > In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before … everything
> > was just a discussion.
> > But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in favor of
> the
> > smaller ones above [PULL-REQUEST], [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION] …
> > well … I guess that was why I chose these defaults for the projects I
> > could change it ;-)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Von: Phil Steitz 
> > Datum: Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 20:57
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > +1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
> > commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if the
> > tooling would support or can be customized for Commons, but one thing
> that
> > would help would be to uniformly drop the word "Commons", so we go back
> to
> > what we did when we actually used the dev list for discussion
> [Commons-Foo]
> > is just [Foo].  There is also no value in the [GitHub] prefix in the
> > messages from there.  All PRs come from there.  Probably should talk
> about
> > this on Commons-dev (maybe with some special decorations on the subject
> > line so people will see it amidst all of the bot stuff :)
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 5:48 AM Gary Gregory 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for sharing these links; what a great start :-)
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure the Commons community will welcome these kinds of
> > > changes where a complaint has been the "flood" of emails from GitHub,
> > > so hopefully this will help.
> > >
> > > For my money though, I'd prefer much shorter subject prefixes, even to
> > > the extreme, I'll just learn the codes, otherwise, it's impossible to
> > > read on my phone, which would be counterproductive (for me).
> > >
> >

AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-27 Thread Christofer Dutz

Ok,

so after the discussion didn’t come up with any objections. I prepared a PR and 
that was merged today.
Now the templates no longer have to have a mandatory “repository” variable ;-)

I updated the PLC4X settings and it seems to be working nicely.

So … where are we on this discussion?
I would still like to change the defaults to the patterns I suggested 
(including the repository).

What’s your thoughts? Should I simply start a vote?

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2023 um 14:35
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Hi all,

So, I’ve tracked down the requirement to the test, that requires the 
“repository” variable,
But it doesn’t really explain why it’s required. I was told that it’s for some 
20 year old reason, however that simply can’t apply to the custom email 
templates for GitHub ;-)

So, I opened a discussion thread 
https://lists.apache.org/thread/wz6f71wovzsz0nk6bdpgs8m17f07o2ko
Feel free to add your comments to it.

Chris

Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 16:29
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system starts 
yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)

Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Why id this necessary?

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t interrupt
> my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
>
> And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR] for
> Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a PR,
> Issue or Discussion.
> Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> general-purpose discussion.
> In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before … everything
> was just a discussion.
> But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in favor of the
> smaller ones above [PULL-REQUEST], [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION] …
> well … I guess that was why I chose these defaults for the projects I
> could change it ;-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Phil Steitz 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 20:57
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> +1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
> commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if the
> tooling would support or can be customized for Commons, but one thing that
> would help would be to uniformly drop the word "Commons", so we go back to
> what we did when we actually used the dev list for discussion [Commons-Foo]
> is just [Foo].  There is also no value in the [GitHub] prefix in the
> messages from there.  All PRs come from there.  Probably should talk about
> this on Commons-dev (maybe with some special decorations on the subject
> line so people will see it amidst all of the bot stuff :)
>
> Phil
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 5:48 AM Gary Gregory 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for sharing these links; what a great start :-)
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the Commons community will welcome these kinds of
> > changes where a complaint has been the "flood" of emails from GitHub,
> > so hopefully this will help.
> >
> > For my money though, I'd prefer much shorter subject prefixes, even to
> > the extreme, I'll just learn the codes, otherwise, it's impossible to
> > read on my phone, which would be counterproductive (for me).
> >
> > For example, [BUILD-FAILURE] -> [BUILD-FAIL] -> [BUILD-F] -> [B-F],
> > just something much shorter, again, think phone. B means Build, F
> > means Fail, that kinda mapping. I'm not sure where the mapping would
> > be best documented, perhaps on each project's mailing list page.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:12 AM Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So here’s an example of one week’s email traffic on one project before
> > and after the config changes:
> > >
> > > (Sorry for putting the Spotlight on you streampipes folks, but this is

AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-19 Thread Christofer Dutz

Hi all,

So, I’ve tracked down the requirement to the test, that requires the 
“repository” variable,
But it doesn’t really explain why it’s required. I was told that it’s for some 
20 year old reason, however that simply can’t apply to the custom email 
templates for GitHub ;-)

So, I opened a discussion thread 
https://lists.apache.org/thread/wz6f71wovzsz0nk6bdpgs8m17f07o2ko
Feel free to add your comments to it.

Chris


Von: Christofer Dutz 
Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 16:29
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system starts 
yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)

Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Why id this necessary?

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t interrupt
> my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
>
> And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR] for
> Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a PR,
> Issue or Discussion.
> Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> general-purpose discussion.
> In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before … everything
> was just a discussion.
> But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in favor of the
> smaller ones above [PULL-REQUEST], [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION] …
> well … I guess that was why I chose these defaults for the projects I
> could change it ;-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Phil Steitz 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 20:57
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> +1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
> commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if the
> tooling would support or can be customized for Commons, but one thing that
> would help would be to uniformly drop the word "Commons", so we go back to
> what we did when we actually used the dev list for discussion [Commons-Foo]
> is just [Foo].  There is also no value in the [GitHub] prefix in the
> messages from there.  All PRs come from there.  Probably should talk about
> this on Commons-dev (maybe with some special decorations on the subject
> line so people will see it amidst all of the bot stuff :)
>
> Phil
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 5:48 AM Gary Gregory 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for sharing these links; what a great start :-)
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the Commons community will welcome these kinds of
> > changes where a complaint has been the "flood" of emails from GitHub,
> > so hopefully this will help.
> >
> > For my money though, I'd prefer much shorter subject prefixes, even to
> > the extreme, I'll just learn the codes, otherwise, it's impossible to
> > read on my phone, which would be counterproductive (for me).
> >
> > For example, [BUILD-FAILURE] -> [BUILD-FAIL] -> [BUILD-F] -> [B-F],
> > just something much shorter, again, think phone. B means Build, F
> > means Fail, that kinda mapping. I'm not sure where the mapping would
> > be best documented, perhaps on each project's mailing list page.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:12 AM Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So here’s an example of one week’s email traffic on one project before
> > and after the config changes:
> > >
> > > (Sorry for putting the Spotlight on you streampipes folks, but this is
> > the best positive example I know)
> > >
> > > Before the change:
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> > > Here you can see, that:
> > > a) It’s hard to see what something is about as the prefix is very large
> > > b) The only grouping happening is the same person doing the same thing
> > on one issue (commenting on an issue for example)
> > >
> > > Also, one week on the same list, with updated settings:
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.or

AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-11 Thread Christofer Dutz

I have absolutely no idea … just whenever you leave it away the system starts 
yelling at you, telling you that it’s required ;-)
If the computer says so … I gotta obey ;-)

Von: Kelly Oglesbee 
Datum: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2023 um 15:00
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Why id this necessary?

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 8:56 AM Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> Well, you can somewhat reduce it to whatever you like … however there
> seems to be one limitation, which I can’t quite explain.
> For some reason you need to have the repository name as part of the
> subject line. That’s why I added it to the end as there it didn’t interrupt
> my speed-reading and didn’t show up on my phone.
>
> And yeah … I agree that I also prefer the super-minimal prefixes [PR] for
> Pull-Requests [I] for Issues and [D] for Discussions.
> I think it takes me something round half a second to know that it’s a PR,
> Issue or Discussion.
> Generally, I could even live without them all together as it doesn’t
> really matter, if a discussion is about a PR, Issue or just a
> general-purpose discussion.
> In an all-email workflow, we never had these prefixes before … everything
> was just a discussion.
> But if you ask me .. I’d keep the minimal prefixes, but be in favor of the
> smaller ones above [PULL-REQUEST], [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION] …
> well … I guess that was why I chose these defaults for the projects I
> could change it ;-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Phil Steitz 
> Datum: Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 20:57
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> +1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
> commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if the
> tooling would support or can be customized for Commons, but one thing that
> would help would be to uniformly drop the word "Commons", so we go back to
> what we did when we actually used the dev list for discussion [Commons-Foo]
> is just [Foo].  There is also no value in the [GitHub] prefix in the
> messages from there.  All PRs come from there.  Probably should talk about
> this on Commons-dev (maybe with some special decorations on the subject
> line so people will see it amidst all of the bot stuff :)
>
> Phil
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 5:48 AM Gary Gregory 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for sharing these links; what a great start :-)
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the Commons community will welcome these kinds of
> > changes where a complaint has been the "flood" of emails from GitHub,
> > so hopefully this will help.
> >
> > For my money though, I'd prefer much shorter subject prefixes, even to
> > the extreme, I'll just learn the codes, otherwise, it's impossible to
> > read on my phone, which would be counterproductive (for me).
> >
> > For example, [BUILD-FAILURE] -> [BUILD-FAIL] -> [BUILD-F] -> [B-F],
> > just something much shorter, again, think phone. B means Build, F
> > means Fail, that kinda mapping. I'm not sure where the mapping would
> > be best documented, perhaps on each project's mailing list page.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:12 AM Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So here’s an example of one week’s email traffic on one project before
> > and after the config changes:
> > >
> > > (Sorry for putting the Spotlight on you streampipes folks, but this is
> > the best positive example I know)
> > >
> > > Before the change:
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> > > Here you can see, that:
> > > a) It’s hard to see what something is about as the prefix is very large
> > > b) The only grouping happening is the same person doing the same thing
> > on one issue (commenting on an issue for example)
> > >
> > > Also, one week on the same list, with updated settings:
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> > :
> > > Here you can see:
> > > a) Greatly reduced number of threads
> > > b) Threads are grouped together
> > > c) You can actually follow a thread
> > > (The reason so many threads start with “RE:” is that the initial post
> > seems to be outside of the date-range of that week and the reason for one
> > or two long discussion titles, was they changed the config on 16.06.2023)
> > >
> > > Hope this brings a bit more context for some.
> &

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-05 Thread Phil Steitz

+1 from another Commons contributor drowning in the flood of cruft on
commons-dev.  Shorter subject lines would be great.  I don't know if the
tooling would support or can be customized for Commons, but one thing that
would help would be to uniformly drop the word "Commons", so we go back to
what we did when we actually used the dev list for discussion [Commons-Foo]
is just [Foo].  There is also no value in the [GitHub] prefix in the
messages from there.  All PRs come from there.  Probably should talk about
this on Commons-dev (maybe with some special decorations on the subject
line so people will see it amidst all of the bot stuff :)

Phil

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 5:48 AM Gary Gregory  wrote:

> Thanks for sharing these links; what a great start :-)
>
> I'm pretty sure the Commons community will welcome these kinds of
> changes where a complaint has been the "flood" of emails from GitHub,
> so hopefully this will help.
>
> For my money though, I'd prefer much shorter subject prefixes, even to
> the extreme, I'll just learn the codes, otherwise, it's impossible to
> read on my phone, which would be counterproductive (for me).
>
> For example, [BUILD-FAILURE] -> [BUILD-FAIL] -> [BUILD-F] -> [B-F],
> just something much shorter, again, think phone. B means Build, F
> means Fail, that kinda mapping. I'm not sure where the mapping would
> be best documented, perhaps on each project's mailing list page.
>
> Gary
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:12 AM Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So here’s an example of one week’s email traffic on one project before
> and after the config changes:
> >
> > (Sorry for putting the Spotlight on you streampipes folks, but this is
> the best positive example I know)
> >
> > Before the change:
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> > Here you can see, that:
> > a) It’s hard to see what something is about as the prefix is very large
> > b) The only grouping happening is the same person doing the same thing
> on one issue (commenting on an issue for example)
> >
> > Also, one week on the same list, with updated settings:
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18
> :
> > Here you can see:
> > a) Greatly reduced number of threads
> > b) Threads are grouped together
> > c) You can actually follow a thread
> > (The reason so many threads start with “RE:” is that the initial post
> seems to be outside of the date-range of that week and the reason for one
> or two long discussion titles, was they changed the config on 16.06.2023)
> >
> > Hope this brings a bit more context for some.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: Shane Curcuru 
> > Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 23:20
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> > Christofer Dutz wrote on 6/30/23 3:49 AM:
> > ...snip...
> > > So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub
> tooling to the ones I proposed in
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> > > Like StreamPipes:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
> >
> > +1 to giving this several more days of review and refinement, and then
> > holding a vote to make this a ComDev PMC recommendation of best practice
> > and then working (separately) on how to announce and make any changes.
> >
> > A couple of things I'd love to see:
> >
> > - A clear example of a before and after within a single project.  Come
> > up with a specific Ponymail date search URL that shows one week of
> > old-style notifications on a dev@ list, and then a second URL that shows
> > a week of new-style notifications from the same dev@ list.  Directly
> > seeing that difference would really help cement "yes, let's do it!"
> >
> > - Changing Chris' description page above to clearly show the best
> > practice first, and then talk about how to find options for projects
> > that want to customize.  The page as written now is good at helping
> > convince someone new that 1) this is an easy change, and 2) this is a
> > good idea.
> >
> > When we work on communications to PMCs, we need a "How-To setup best
> > practices for GH notifications" guide that focuses on the *why*
> > "Inclusion and transparency", and then the *steps to do/configure* which
>

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-03 Thread Gary Gregory

Thanks for sharing these links; what a great start :-)

I'm pretty sure the Commons community will welcome these kinds of
changes where a complaint has been the "flood" of emails from GitHub,
so hopefully this will help.

For my money though, I'd prefer much shorter subject prefixes, even to
the extreme, I'll just learn the codes, otherwise, it's impossible to
read on my phone, which would be counterproductive (for me).

For example, [BUILD-FAILURE] -> [BUILD-FAIL] -> [BUILD-F] -> [B-F],
just something much shorter, again, think phone. B means Build, F
means Fail, that kinda mapping. I'm not sure where the mapping would
be best documented, perhaps on each project's mailing list page.

Gary

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:12 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> So here’s an example of one week’s email traffic on one project before and 
> after the config changes:
>
> (Sorry for putting the Spotlight on you streampipes folks, but this is the 
> best positive example I know)
>
> Before the change:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
> Here you can see, that:
> a) It’s hard to see what something is about as the prefix is very large
> b) The only grouping happening is the same person doing the same thing on one 
> issue (commenting on an issue for example)
>
> Also, one week on the same list, with updated settings:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18:
> Here you can see:
> a) Greatly reduced number of threads
> b) Threads are grouped together
> c) You can actually follow a thread
> (The reason so many threads start with “RE:” is that the initial post seems 
> to be outside of the date-range of that week and the reason for one or two 
> long discussion titles, was they changed the config on 16.06.2023)
>
> Hope this brings a bit more context for some.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> Von: Shane Curcuru 
> Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 23:20
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> Christofer Dutz wrote on 6/30/23 3:49 AM:
> ...snip...
> > So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub 
> > tooling to the ones I proposed in 
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >  . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> > Like StreamPipes: 
> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
>
> +1 to giving this several more days of review and refinement, and then
> holding a vote to make this a ComDev PMC recommendation of best practice
> and then working (separately) on how to announce and make any changes.
>
> A couple of things I'd love to see:
>
> - A clear example of a before and after within a single project.  Come
> up with a specific Ponymail date search URL that shows one week of
> old-style notifications on a dev@ list, and then a second URL that shows
> a week of new-style notifications from the same dev@ list.  Directly
> seeing that difference would really help cement "yes, let's do it!"
>
> - Changing Chris' description page above to clearly show the best
> practice first, and then talk about how to find options for projects
> that want to customize.  The page as written now is good at helping
> convince someone new that 1) this is an easy change, and 2) this is a
> good idea.
>
> When we work on communications to PMCs, we need a "How-To setup best
> practices for GH notifications" guide that focuses on the *why*
> "Inclusion and transparency", and then the *steps to do/configure* which
> would be brief description of asfyaml stuff, and start with the best
> practice configuration, explaining what it does.
>
> After that in the doc, include the original GH notifications and other
> pointers to technical reference.
>
> Thinking ahead, I'd be happy voting to send out PMCs email saying "the
> default notifications are going to change on date X; email here to
> opt-out".  Keep track of opt-outs, and then change defaults for all.
>
> --
> - Shane
>ComDev PMC
>The Apache Software Foundation
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

-
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AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-07-03 Thread Christofer Dutz

Hi all,

So here’s an example of one week’s email traffic on one project before and 
after the config changes:

(Sorry for putting the Spotlight on you streampipes folks, but this is the best 
positive example I know)

Before the change:
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-1-9|dto=2023-1-15
Here you can see, that:
a) It’s hard to see what something is about as the prefix is very large
b) The only grouping happening is the same person doing the same thing on one 
issue (commenting on an issue for example)

Also, one week on the same list, with updated settings:
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:dfr=2023-6-12|dto=2023-6-18:
Here you can see:
a) Greatly reduced number of threads
b) Threads are grouped together
c) You can actually follow a thread
(The reason so many threads start with “RE:” is that the initial post seems to 
be outside of the date-range of that week and the reason for one or two long 
discussion titles, was they changed the config on 16.06.2023)

Hope this brings a bit more context for some.

Chris



Von: Shane Curcuru 
Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 23:20
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Christofer Dutz wrote on 6/30/23 3:49 AM:
...snip...
> So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub tooling 
> to the ones I proposed in 
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>  . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> Like StreamPipes: 
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M

+1 to giving this several more days of review and refinement, and then
holding a vote to make this a ComDev PMC recommendation of best practice
and then working (separately) on how to announce and make any changes.

A couple of things I'd love to see:

- A clear example of a before and after within a single project.  Come
up with a specific Ponymail date search URL that shows one week of
old-style notifications on a dev@ list, and then a second URL that shows
a week of new-style notifications from the same dev@ list.  Directly
seeing that difference would really help cement "yes, let's do it!"

- Changing Chris' description page above to clearly show the best
practice first, and then talk about how to find options for projects
that want to customize.  The page as written now is good at helping
convince someone new that 1) this is an easy change, and 2) this is a
good idea.

When we work on communications to PMCs, we need a "How-To setup best
practices for GH notifications" guide that focuses on the *why*
"Inclusion and transparency", and then the *steps to do/configure* which
would be brief description of asfyaml stuff, and start with the best
practice configuration, explaining what it does.

After that in the doc, include the original GH notifications and other
pointers to technical reference.

Thinking ahead, I'd be happy voting to send out PMCs email saying "the
default notifications are going to change on date X; email here to
opt-out".  Keep track of opt-outs, and then change defaults for all.

--
- Shane
   ComDev PMC
   The Apache Software Foundation


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Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Shane Curcuru

Christofer Dutz wrote on 6/30/23 3:49 AM:
...snip...

So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub tooling
to the ones I proposed in
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
. Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
Like StreamPipes:
https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M

+1 to giving this several more days of review and refinement, and then
holding a vote to make this a ComDev PMC recommendation of best practice
and then working (separately) on how to announce and make any changes.

A couple of things I'd love to see:

- A clear example of a before and after within a single project. Come
up with a specific Ponymail date search URL that shows one week of
old-style notifications on a dev@ list, and then a second URL that shows
a week of new-style notifications from the same dev@ list. Directly
seeing that difference would really help cement "yes, let's do it!"

- Changing Chris' description page above to clearly show the best
practice first, and then talk about how to find options for projects
that want to customize. The page as written now is good at helping
convince someone new that 1) this is an easy change, and 2) this is a
good idea.

When we work on communications to PMCs, we need a "How-To setup best
practices for GH notifications" guide that focuses on the *why*
"Inclusion and transparency", and then the *steps to do/configure* which
would be brief description of asfyaml stuff, and start with the best
practice configuration, explaining what it does.

After that in the doc, include the original GH notifications and other
pointers to technical reference.

Thinking ahead, I'd be happy voting to send out PMCs email saying "the
default notifications are going to change on date X; email here to
opt-out". Keep track of opt-outs, and then change defaults for all.

--
- Shane
ComDev PMC
The Apache Software Foundation

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Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Daniel Gruno


On 2023-06-30 19:41, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:

On Fri, 2023-06-30 at 13:55 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:

   *   About breaking automation projects might have set up: I would
absolutely doubt there is even a single Apache project that has setup
automation based on these emails. I could imagine that there is a
hand full of companies paying attention to them, but in this case, I
would suggest optimizing for community and not these companies.


Yes, we absolutely should prioritize our own project communities over
companies. I didn't realize that we were concerned about *companies*
doing this. They can update their tooling.


My two cents: Ask the projects if the change would break things for them 
or not. It is likely that no one will complain.


Infra originally chose not to globally change the format out of an 
abundance of caution, but that does not necessarily mean it is forever 
set in stone. We just need to find out what is up and down here.





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Re: AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread rbowen

On Fri, 2023-06-30 at 13:55 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
>   *   About breaking automation projects might have set up: I would
> absolutely doubt there is even a single Apache project that has setup
> automation based on these emails. I could imagine that there is a
> hand full of companies paying attention to them, but in this case, I
> would suggest optimizing for community and not these companies.

Yes, we absolutely should prioritize our own project communities over
companies. I didn't realize that we were concerned about *companies*
doing this. They can update their tooling.


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AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

Hi all,

Aggregating responses to multiple emails:

  *   Sending an Email ahead of time with a code-snippet that allows keeping 
the old defaults (If a project wants to keep the old, all they need to do is 
copy that to their .asf.yaml-file and nothing will change)
  *   About different Prefixes: Absolutely fine with longer prefixes. As I 
said, just wanted to keep them as short as possible for mobile reading
  *   About breaking automation projects might have set up: I would absolutely 
doubt there is even a single Apache project that has setup automation based on 
these emails. I could imagine that there is a hand full of companies paying 
attention to them, but in this case, I would suggest optimizing for community 
and not these companies.

Chris

Von: Dave Fisher 
Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 15:38
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 30, 2023, at 2:14 AM, Christofer Dutz  
> wrote:
>
> Hi Bertrand,
>
> In general, I would agree, but the problem is that we currently have a very 
> large number of unreadable lists.
> This is what I’m generally trying to fix. Some projects responded with “If 
> the defaults are the ways they are, they probably are for a reason … we’ll 
> stick with the defaults” … problem is I am very sure that there never was a 
> discussion on how these defaults should look and that they are more that way 
> for implementation reasons and not community reasons.

I know that infra did have discussions and had reasons that were not just 
tooling. I recall asking about subject length a few years ago. I’m not going to 
look right now. You might want to ask them.

Best,
Dave

>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Bertrand Delacretaz 
> Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 11:11
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> Hi,
>
>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 9:50 AM Christofer Dutz
>>  wrote:
>> ...I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults, 
>> but generally
>> met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be bots that 
>> automatically
>> consume these emails and these would be confused if we changed the 
>> defaults...
>
> That's a totally valid concern IMO, but there might be two ways to
> change the defaults:
>
> a) change for all lists which don't have specific settings
> b) change for newly created lists from now on
>
> If b) is possible I think that's much safer, and ideally projects can
> opt-in to switch existing lists.
>
>> ...Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
>> Like StreamPipes: 
>> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
>
> This looks nice to me, which is unsurprising, as people know I'm a big
> fan of Tags Everywhere ;-)
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
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Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Dave Fisher




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 30, 2023, at 2:14 AM, Christofer Dutz  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bertrand,
> 
> In general, I would agree, but the problem is that we currently have a very 
> large number of unreadable lists.
> This is what I’m generally trying to fix. Some projects responded with “If 
> the defaults are the ways they are, they probably are for a reason … we’ll 
> stick with the defaults” … problem is I am very sure that there never was a 
> discussion on how these defaults should look and that they are more that way 
> for implementation reasons and not community reasons.

I know that infra did have discussions and had reasons that were not just 
tooling. I recall asking about subject length a few years ago. I’m not going to 
look right now. You might want to ask them.

Best,
Dave

> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> Von: Bertrand Delacretaz 
> Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 11:11
> An: dev@community.apache.org 
> Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
> Hi,
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 9:50 AM Christofer Dutz
>>  wrote:
>> ...I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults, 
>> but generally
>> met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be bots that 
>> automatically
>> consume these emails and these would be confused if we changed the 
>> defaults...
> 
> That's a totally valid concern IMO, but there might be two ways to
> change the defaults:
> 
> a) change for all lists which don't have specific settings
> b) change for newly created lists from now on
> 
> If b) is possible I think that's much safer, and ideally projects can
> opt-in to switch existing lists.
> 
>> ...Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
>> Like StreamPipes: 
>> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
> 
> This looks nice to me, which is unsurprising, as people know I'm a big
> fan of Tags Everywhere ;-)
> 
> -Bertrand
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Gary Gregory

I read a lot emails on my phone, so shorts subjects are good. If each
subject becomes [PROJECT][DISCUSSION][PR 123] then it's worse than now IMO.

Gary

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 04:20 Christopher  wrote:

> I think this would be really great. I'm not a big fan of the [I] and [D]
> topics, though. I think I'd rather see [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION], but either
> way, the ability to group emails is a big improvement. I'd also prefer to
> always include [GH] as a topic tag, so for example, [GH][ISSUE], so if
> people don't redirect them to another list, I can filter them out more
> easily. The reason for that is that I will still prefer to manage my
> notification subscriptions directly with GitHub, and prefer to suppress
> those on the lists by default.
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 03:50 Christofer Dutz 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, we have made it possible to “integrate” GitHub PRs, Issues and now
> > even Discussions by having infra auto-generate emails.
> > However, is the default setting for these just completely useless (in my
> > opinion).
> >
> > Without taking action currently there are only the following options:
> >
> >   *   A project just redirects the emails to another lists (commits@ or
> > notifications@ or whatever)
> >   *   A project gets a totally human-unreadable dev-list.
> >
> > As I see my role as a director in actually having a look at all of our
> > mailinglists this has become more and more painful over time.
> > But it got me thinking: If I’m having problems being able to see what a
> > project is up to – so will others.
> >
> > Some of the projects will have received many comments from me over the
> > past few months, as I’m trying to make dev-lists usable again.
> > Infra did add the ability to customize the default templates for the
> > subjects of auto-generated emails. And last month a PR of mine got
> merged,
> > that also allowed the customization of GitHub Discussions.
> >
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >
> > I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults,
> > but generally met opposition. The general argument was, that there would
> be
> > bots that automatically consume these emails and these would be confused
> if
> > we changed the defaults.
> >
> > However, I think at the ASF we should be optimizing for people and not
> for
> > bots. Right now we have many projects where following the list is very
> > difficult and therefore we’re losing a big part of our transparency.
> >
> > I’m bringing this here as I think Comdev is where such discussions should
> > be had.
> >
> > So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub
> > tooling to the ones I proposed in
> >
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> > . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> > Like StreamPipes:
> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz

Hi Chris,

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 11:14 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
> ...In general, I would agree, but the problem is that we currently have a very
> large number of unreadable lists

Fixing this is a valid goal, but breaking automation that projects
might have setup is very bad.

I guess what's needed is a clear explanation of what's happening and
why, with a strong recommendation to switch but a way for projects to
opt out of that switch if they need to fix some automation.

-Bertrand

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AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

Hi Bertrand,

In general, I would agree, but the problem is that we currently have a very 
large number of unreadable lists.
This is what I’m generally trying to fix. Some projects responded with “If the 
defaults are the ways they are, they probably are for a reason … we’ll stick 
with the defaults” … problem is I am very sure that there never was a 
discussion on how these defaults should look and that they are more that way 
for implementation reasons and not community reasons.

Chris

Von: Bertrand Delacretaz 
Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 11:11
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Hi,

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 9:50 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
> ...I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults, 
> but generally
> met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be bots that 
> automatically
> consume these emails and these would be confused if we changed the defaults...

That's a totally valid concern IMO, but there might be two ways to
change the defaults:

a) change for all lists which don't have specific settings
b) change for newly created lists from now on

If b) is possible I think that's much safer, and ideally projects can
opt-in to switch existing lists.

> ...Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> Like StreamPipes: 
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M

This looks nice to me, which is unsurprising, as people know I'm a big
fan of Tags Everywhere ;-)

-Bertrand

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AW: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

Hi all,

well, I removed the issue numbers, as I thought that they only bring very 
limited value to the reader and the title itself gives way more context.
Of course, could we add them, but then I would recommend to add them at the end 
(just like the repository name).

And the reason I chose the “I”, “PR” and “D” was that I am subscribed to many 
lists and if I’m travelling, I read a lot of them on my phone (as I know others 
do too). I just wanted to keep the static stuff as short as possible to allow 
displaying more of the subject on small screens.

But I’m totally open to discussing the format as I am just 100% sure the 
current default is harmful.

Chris



Von: sebb 
Datum: Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 10:36
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?
Mostly agree, though I wonder why the numbers have been dropped from
the shorter titles.

[D] could be [DISCUSS] or [RFC] perhaps.

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 at 09:20, Christopher  wrote:
>
> I think this would be really great. I'm not a big fan of the [I] and [D]
> topics, though. I think I'd rather see [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION], but either
> way, the ability to group emails is a big improvement. I'd also prefer to
> always include [GH] as a topic tag, so for example, [GH][ISSUE], so if
> people don't redirect them to another list, I can filter them out more
> easily. The reason for that is that I will still prefer to manage my
> notification subscriptions directly with GitHub, and prefer to suppress
> those on the lists by default.
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 03:50 Christofer Dutz 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, we have made it possible to “integrate” GitHub PRs, Issues and now
> > even Discussions by having infra auto-generate emails.
> > However, is the default setting for these just completely useless (in my
> > opinion).
> >
> > Without taking action currently there are only the following options:
> >
> >   *   A project just redirects the emails to another lists (commits@ or
> > notifications@ or whatever)
> >   *   A project gets a totally human-unreadable dev-list.
> >
> > As I see my role as a director in actually having a look at all of our
> > mailinglists this has become more and more painful over time.
> > But it got me thinking: If I’m having problems being able to see what a
> > project is up to – so will others.
> >
> > Some of the projects will have received many comments from me over the
> > past few months, as I’m trying to make dev-lists usable again.
> > Infra did add the ability to customize the default templates for the
> > subjects of auto-generated emails. And last month a PR of mine got merged,
> > that also allowed the customization of GitHub Discussions.
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >
> > I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults,
> > but generally met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be
> > bots that automatically consume these emails and these would be confused if
> > we changed the defaults.
> >
> > However, I think at the ASF we should be optimizing for people and not for
> > bots. Right now we have many projects where following the list is very
> > difficult and therefore we’re losing a big part of our transparency.
> >
> > I’m bringing this here as I think Comdev is where such discussions should
> > be had.
> >
> > So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub
> > tooling to the ones I proposed in
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> > . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> > Like StreamPipes:
> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >

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Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Jarek Potiuk

Big +1 on that one.

There were cases in the past that some "breaking" changes in GitHub
integration were introduced already for various reasons.
Given some warnings and explanations why we are doing it (basically to
better fulfill our mission) it's a change that is pretty easily
actionable for the PMCs and individuals who subscribe to those messages
(Mostly it's reconfiguring bots and mailing filtering rules that one
would set up to filter the messages).

It's a change, for sure, and people will complain (this is a given and
expected), but overall I think the example with StreamPipes really shows
the reason why it's worth doing it.

I think one way to make it simple for the PMCs to accept such a change is
to have an explanation and simple instruction on how to go back to the
previous settings. Then the answer to complaints might be "Adapt your
bots/rules (best) or follow  to bring back the old
setting".

BTW. I also agree having longer than single-letter [TOPICS] and always
prepend it with [GH] would be a more reasonable default.

J.

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 10:36 AM sebb  wrote:

> Mostly agree, though I wonder why the numbers have been dropped from
> the shorter titles.
>
> [D] could be [DISCUSS] or [RFC] perhaps.
>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 at 09:20, Christopher  wrote:
> >
> > I think this would be really great. I'm not a big fan of the [I] and [D]
> > topics, though. I think I'd rather see [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION], but
> either
> > way, the ability to group emails is a big improvement. I'd also prefer to
> > always include [GH] as a topic tag, so for example, [GH][ISSUE], so if
> > people don't redirect them to another list, I can filter them out more
> > easily. The reason for that is that I will still prefer to manage my
> > notification subscriptions directly with GitHub, and prefer to suppress
> > those on the lists by default.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 03:50 Christofer Dutz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > So, we have made it possible to “integrate” GitHub PRs, Issues and now
> > > even Discussions by having infra auto-generate emails.
> > > However, is the default setting for these just completely useless (in
> my
> > > opinion).
> > >
> > > Without taking action currently there are only the following options:
> > >
> > >   *   A project just redirects the emails to another lists (commits@
> or
> > > notifications@ or whatever)
> > >   *   A project gets a totally human-unreadable dev-list.
> > >
> > > As I see my role as a director in actually having a look at all of our
> > > mailinglists this has become more and more painful over time.
> > > But it got me thinking: If I’m having problems being able to see what a
> > > project is up to – so will others.
> > >
> > > Some of the projects will have received many comments from me over the
> > > past few months, as I’m trying to make dev-lists usable again.
> > > Infra did add the ability to customize the default templates for the
> > > subjects of auto-generated emails. And last month a PR of mine got
> merged,
> > > that also allowed the customization of GitHub Discussions.
> > >
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> > >
> > > I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults,
> > > but generally met opposition. The general argument was, that there
> would be
> > > bots that automatically consume these emails and these would be
> confused if
> > > we changed the defaults.
> > >
> > > However, I think at the ASF we should be optimizing for people and not
> for
> > > bots. Right now we have many projects where following the list is very
> > > difficult and therefore we’re losing a big part of our transparency.
> > >
> > > I’m bringing this here as I think Comdev is where such discussions
> should
> > > be had.
> > >
> > > So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub
> > > tooling to the ones I proposed in
> > >
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> > > . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> > > Like StreamPipes:
> > > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 9:50 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
> ...I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults, 
> but generally
> met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be bots that 
> automatically
> consume these emails and these would be confused if we changed the defaults...

That's a totally valid concern IMO, but there might be two ways to
change the defaults:

a) change for all lists which don't have specific settings
b) change for newly created lists from now on

If b) is possible I think that's much safer, and ideally projects can
opt-in to switch existing lists.

> ...Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> Like StreamPipes: 
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M

This looks nice to me, which is unsurprising, as people know I'm a big
fan of Tags Everywhere ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread sebb

Mostly agree, though I wonder why the numbers have been dropped from
the shorter titles.

[D] could be [DISCUSS] or [RFC] perhaps.

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 at 09:20, Christopher  wrote:
>
> I think this would be really great. I'm not a big fan of the [I] and [D]
> topics, though. I think I'd rather see [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION], but either
> way, the ability to group emails is a big improvement. I'd also prefer to
> always include [GH] as a topic tag, so for example, [GH][ISSUE], so if
> people don't redirect them to another list, I can filter them out more
> easily. The reason for that is that I will still prefer to manage my
> notification subscriptions directly with GitHub, and prefer to suppress
> those on the lists by default.
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 03:50 Christofer Dutz 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > So, we have made it possible to “integrate” GitHub PRs, Issues and now
> > even Discussions by having infra auto-generate emails.
> > However, is the default setting for these just completely useless (in my
> > opinion).
> >
> > Without taking action currently there are only the following options:
> >
> >   *   A project just redirects the emails to another lists (commits@ or
> > notifications@ or whatever)
> >   *   A project gets a totally human-unreadable dev-list.
> >
> > As I see my role as a director in actually having a look at all of our
> > mailinglists this has become more and more painful over time.
> > But it got me thinking: If I’m having problems being able to see what a
> > project is up to – so will others.
> >
> > Some of the projects will have received many comments from me over the
> > past few months, as I’m trying to make dev-lists usable again.
> > Infra did add the ability to customize the default templates for the
> > subjects of auto-generated emails. And last month a PR of mine got merged,
> > that also allowed the customization of GitHub Discussions.
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >
> > I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults,
> > but generally met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be
> > bots that automatically consume these emails and these would be confused if
> > we changed the defaults.
> >
> > However, I think at the ASF we should be optimizing for people and not for
> > bots. Right now we have many projects where following the list is very
> > difficult and therefore we’re losing a big part of our transparency.
> >
> > I’m bringing this here as I think Comdev is where such discussions should
> > be had.
> >
> > So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub
> > tooling to the ones I proposed in
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> > . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> > Like StreamPipes:
> > https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >

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Re: Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?

2023-06-30 Thread Christopher

I think this would be really great. I'm not a big fan of the [I] and [D]
topics, though. I think I'd rather see [ISSUE] and [DISCUSSION], but either
way, the ability to group emails is a big improvement. I'd also prefer to
always include [GH] as a topic tag, so for example, [GH][ISSUE], so if
people don't redirect them to another list, I can filter them out more
easily. The reason for that is that I will still prefer to manage my
notification subscriptions directly with GitHub, and prefer to suppress
those on the lists by default.

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 03:50 Christofer Dutz 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> So, we have made it possible to “integrate” GitHub PRs, Issues and now
> even Discussions by having infra auto-generate emails.
> However, is the default setting for these just completely useless (in my
> opinion).
>
> Without taking action currently there are only the following options:
>
>   *   A project just redirects the emails to another lists (commits@ or
> notifications@ or whatever)
>   *   A project gets a totally human-unreadable dev-list.
>
> As I see my role as a director in actually having a look at all of our
> mailinglists this has become more and more painful over time.
> But it got me thinking: If I’m having problems being able to see what a
> project is up to – so will others.
>
> Some of the projects will have received many comments from me over the
> past few months, as I’m trying to make dev-lists usable again.
> Infra did add the ability to customize the default templates for the
> subjects of auto-generated emails. And last month a PR of mine got merged,
> that also allowed the customization of GitHub Discussions.
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> I had many discussions with folks at infra about changing the defaults,
> but generally met opposition. The general argument was, that there would be
> bots that automatically consume these emails and these would be confused if
> we changed the defaults.
>
> However, I think at the ASF we should be optimizing for people and not for
> bots. Right now we have many projects where following the list is very
> difficult and therefore we’re losing a big part of our transparency.
>
> I’m bringing this here as I think Comdev is where such discussions should
> be had.
>
> So in general, I would like to change the defaults used by the GitHub
> tooling to the ones I proposed in
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> . Quite a number of projects have adopted these settings:
> Like StreamPipes:
> https://lists.apache.org/list?d...@streampipes.apache.org:lte=4M
>
> What do you folks think?
>
> Chris
>
>

Changing the defaults for GitHub generated email titles?