Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Leonard Xu]

+1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.


Best,
Leonard

> On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the Apache Flink 
> website: https://flink.apache.org. The approach and a few initial mockups are 
> included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink 
> website.
> 
> The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and new users 
> easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink attractive to new 
> users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed changes to 
> Flink documentation.
> 
> I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Deepthi
> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Feifan Wang]

+1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized

|
|
Feifan Wang
|
|
zoltar9...@163.com
|


 Replied Message 
| From | Leonard Xu |
| Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
| To | dev |
| Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website |
+1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.


Best,
Leonard

On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi  wrote:

Hi,

I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the Apache Flink 
website: https://flink.apache.org. The approach and a few initial mockups are 
included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink 
website.<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website>

The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and new users 
easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink attractive to new 
users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed changes to 
Flink documentation.

I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.

Thanks,
Deepthi

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Xintong Song]

+1 in general.

Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design looks very
cool.

I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I barely know
anything about the website design.
- Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website designs at the
same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm asking
because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the original
website might be more convenient for people who are already familiar with
it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to users.
- For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the same color
theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much effort
does it require?
- In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general consensus" and
"feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have you
conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more about that?

Best,

Xintong



On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM Feifan Wang  wrote:

> +1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized
>
> |
> |
> Feifan Wang
> |
> |
> zoltar9...@163.com
> |
>
>
>  Replied Message ----
> | From | Leonard Xu |
> | Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
> | To | dev |
> | Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website |
> +1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.
>
>
> Best,
> Leonard
>
> On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi 
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the Apache Flink
> website: https://flink.apache.org. The approach and a few initial mockups
> are included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website.<
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> >
>
> The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and new users
> easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink attractive to
> new users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed changes
> to Flink documentation.
>
> I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
>
> Thanks,
> Deepthi
>
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Matthias Pohl]

I also like the proposed designs. Considering that you want to touch
individual subpages, there are also some subpages of Flink's website not
being mentioned in the FLIP (e.g. roadmap [1]). What is the plan with
those? Are they covered by the "We recommend modifications only to the
design of the following pages" part but are not listed there?

Additionally, it would be nice to get a bit more insight into the feedback
from users as Xintong pointed out. It would be interesting to understand
how the new design helps solving certain problems (besides having the
motivation to modernize the look and feel).

I'm also wondering whether it's doable to do a discussion (FLIP?) per
subpage on the design (as proposed by Chesnay in the first discussion on
this topic [2] to have smaller changes rather than a single big one). But I
could imagine this being quite tedious because different people might
have different opinions on how something should be done.

I don't have any experience with frontend design. I'm wondering how much
time such a redesign takes. Could it be linked to the 2.0 release?

Thanks for the FLIP (you might want to add [2] to the FLIP's header for the
sake of transparency).
Matthias

[1] https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/
[2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 11:39 AM Xintong Song  wrote:

> +1 in general.
>
> Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design looks very
> cool.
>
> I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I barely know
> anything about the website design.
> - Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website designs at the
> same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm asking
> because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the original
> website might be more convenient for people who are already familiar with
> it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to users.
> - For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the same color
> theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much effort
> does it require?
> - In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general consensus" and
> "feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have you
> conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more about
> that?
>
> Best,
>
> Xintong
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM Feifan Wang  wrote:
>
> > +1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized
> >
> > |
> > |
> > Feifan Wang
> > |
> > |
> > zoltar9...@163.com
> > |
> >
> >
> >  Replied Message 
> > | From | Leonard Xu |
> > | Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
> > | To | dev |
> > | Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website |
> > +1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Leonard
> >
> > On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the Apache
> Flink
> > website: https://flink.apache.org. The approach and a few initial
> mockups
> > are included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website.<
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> > >
> >
> > The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and new
> users
> > easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink attractive to
> > new users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed
> changes
> > to Flink documentation.
> >
> > I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Deepthi
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Jing Ge]

Hi,

+1, the UI design looks good!

Commonly speaking, there are two parts of the whole website: Flink Web and
Flink doc. Will the dart mode also cover Flink doc?

Best regards,
Jing

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 12:40 PM Matthias Pohl
 wrote:

> I also like the proposed designs. Considering that you want to touch
> individual subpages, there are also some subpages of Flink's website not
> being mentioned in the FLIP (e.g. roadmap [1]). What is the plan with
> those? Are they covered by the "We recommend modifications only to the
> design of the following pages" part but are not listed there?
>
> Additionally, it would be nice to get a bit more insight into the feedback
> from users as Xintong pointed out. It would be interesting to understand
> how the new design helps solving certain problems (besides having the
> motivation to modernize the look and feel).
>
> I'm also wondering whether it's doable to do a discussion (FLIP?) per
> subpage on the design (as proposed by Chesnay in the first discussion on
> this topic [2] to have smaller changes rather than a single big one). But I
> could imagine this being quite tedious because different people might
> have different opinions on how something should be done.
>
> I don't have any experience with frontend design. I'm wondering how much
> time such a redesign takes. Could it be linked to the 2.0 release?
>
> Thanks for the FLIP (you might want to add [2] to the FLIP's header for the
> sake of transparency).
> Matthias
>
> [1] https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/
> [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 11:39 AM Xintong Song 
> wrote:
>
> > +1 in general.
> >
> > Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design looks
> very
> > cool.
> >
> > I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I barely
> know
> > anything about the website design.
> > - Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website designs at
> the
> > same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm asking
> > because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the
> original
> > website might be more convenient for people who are already familiar with
> > it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to
> users.
> > - For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the same
> color
> > theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much effort
> > does it require?
> > - In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general consensus"
> and
> > "feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have you
> > conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more about
> > that?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Xintong
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM Feifan Wang  wrote:
> >
> > > +1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized
> > >
> > > |
> > > |
> > > Feifan Wang
> > > |
> > > |
> > > zoltar9...@163.com
> > > |
> > >
> > >
> > >  Replied Message 
> > > | From | Leonard Xu |
> > > | Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
> > > | To | dev |
> > > | Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website |
> > > +1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Leonard
> > >
> > > On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi  >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the Apache
> > Flink
> > > website: https://flink.apache.org. The approach and a few initial
> > mockups
> > > are included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website.<
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> > > >
> > >
> > > The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and new
> > users
> > > easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink attractive
> to
> > > new users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed
> > changes
> > > to Flink documentation.
> > >
> > > I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Deepthi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Jingsong Li]

It's exciting to finally have someone to refactor the Flink website.

Thanks Deepthi.

To Xintong,

> maintain two sets of website designs at the same time

If our website is not so complex, and new webui can be full feature
coverage, there would be no need to maintain two sets of web.

To Jing

+1 to consider Flink doc too.

Best,
Jingsong

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 8:16 PM Jing Ge  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> +1, the UI design looks good!
>
> Commonly speaking, there are two parts of the whole website: Flink Web and
> Flink doc. Will the dart mode also cover Flink doc?
>
> Best regards,
> Jing
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 12:40 PM Matthias Pohl
>  wrote:
>
> > I also like the proposed designs. Considering that you want to touch
> > individual subpages, there are also some subpages of Flink's website not
> > being mentioned in the FLIP (e.g. roadmap [1]). What is the plan with
> > those? Are they covered by the "We recommend modifications only to the
> > design of the following pages" part but are not listed there?
> >
> > Additionally, it would be nice to get a bit more insight into the feedback
> > from users as Xintong pointed out. It would be interesting to understand
> > how the new design helps solving certain problems (besides having the
> > motivation to modernize the look and feel).
> >
> > I'm also wondering whether it's doable to do a discussion (FLIP?) per
> > subpage on the design (as proposed by Chesnay in the first discussion on
> > this topic [2] to have smaller changes rather than a single big one). But I
> > could imagine this being quite tedious because different people might
> > have different opinions on how something should be done.
> >
> > I don't have any experience with frontend design. I'm wondering how much
> > time such a redesign takes. Could it be linked to the 2.0 release?
> >
> > Thanks for the FLIP (you might want to add [2] to the FLIP's header for the
> > sake of transparency).
> > Matthias
> >
> > [1] https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/
> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 11:39 AM Xintong Song 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1 in general.
> > >
> > > Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design looks
> > very
> > > cool.
> > >
> > > I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I barely
> > know
> > > anything about the website design.
> > > - Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website designs at
> > the
> > > same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm asking
> > > because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the
> > original
> > > website might be more convenient for people who are already familiar with
> > > it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to
> > users.
> > > - For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the same
> > color
> > > theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much effort
> > > does it require?
> > > - In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general consensus"
> > and
> > > "feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have you
> > > conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more about
> > > that?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Xintong
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM Feifan Wang  wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized
> > > >
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > Feifan Wang
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > > zoltar9...@163.com
> > > > |
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Replied Message 
> > > > | From | Leonard Xu |
> > > > | Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
> > > > | To | dev |
> > > > | Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website |
> > > > +1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Leonard
> > > >
> > > > On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi  > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the Apache
> > > Flink
> > > > website: https://flink.apache.org. The approach and a few initial
> > > mockups
> > > > are included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website.<
> > > >
> > >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and new
> > > users
> > > > easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink attractive
> > to
> > > > new users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed
> > > changes
> > > > to Flink documentation.
> > > >
> > > > I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Deepthi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Danny Cranmer]

Thanks for driving this Deepthi.

Looks great to me; a huge improvement over the current website. We had
agreed in the previous discussion [1] to keep the main website separate
from the docs since the target audience is different. I am inclined to
decouple the two and re-evaluate updating the docs in a separate FLIP later.

Thanks,
Danny

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 2:38 PM Jingsong Li  wrote:

> It's exciting to finally have someone to refactor the Flink website.
>
> Thanks Deepthi.
>
> To Xintong,
>
> > maintain two sets of website designs at the same time
>
> If our website is not so complex, and new webui can be full feature
> coverage, there would be no need to maintain two sets of web.
>
> To Jing
>
> +1 to consider Flink doc too.
>
> Best,
> Jingsong
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 8:16 PM Jing Ge 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > +1, the UI design looks good!
> >
> > Commonly speaking, there are two parts of the whole website: Flink Web
> and
> > Flink doc. Will the dart mode also cover Flink doc?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jing
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 12:40 PM Matthias Pohl
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > I also like the proposed designs. Considering that you want to touch
> > > individual subpages, there are also some subpages of Flink's website
> not
> > > being mentioned in the FLIP (e.g. roadmap [1]). What is the plan with
> > > those? Are they covered by the "We recommend modifications only to the
> > > design of the following pages" part but are not listed there?
> > >
> > > Additionally, it would be nice to get a bit more insight into the
> feedback
> > > from users as Xintong pointed out. It would be interesting to
> understand
> > > how the new design helps solving certain problems (besides having the
> > > motivation to modernize the look and feel).
> > >
> > > I'm also wondering whether it's doable to do a discussion (FLIP?) per
> > > subpage on the design (as proposed by Chesnay in the first discussion
> on
> > > this topic [2] to have smaller changes rather than a single big one).
> But I
> > > could imagine this being quite tedious because different people might
> > > have different opinions on how something should be done.
> > >
> > > I don't have any experience with frontend design. I'm wondering how
> much
> > > time such a redesign takes. Could it be linked to the 2.0 release?
> > >
> > > Thanks for the FLIP (you might want to add [2] to the FLIP's header
> for the
> > > sake of transparency).
> > > Matthias
> > >
> > > [1] https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/
> > > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 11:39 AM Xintong Song 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 in general.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design looks
> > > very
> > > > cool.
> > > >
> > > > I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I
> barely
> > > know
> > > > anything about the website design.
> > > > - Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website designs
> at
> > > the
> > > > same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm
> asking
> > > > because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the
> > > original
> > > > website might be more convenient for people who are already familiar
> with
> > > > it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to
> > > users.
> > > > - For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the same
> > > color
> > > > theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much
> effort
> > > > does it require?
> > > > - In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general
> consensus"
> > > and
> > > > "feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have
> you
> > > > conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more
> about
> > > > that?
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Xintong
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM F

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Mohan, Deepthi]

 this topic [2] to have smaller changes rather than a single big one).
> But I
> > > could imagine this being quite tedious because different people might
> > > have different opinions on how something should be done.
> > >
> > > I don't have any experience with frontend design. I'm wondering how
> much
> > > time such a redesign takes. Could it be linked to the 2.0 release?
> > >
> > > Thanks for the FLIP (you might want to add [2] to the FLIP's header
> for the
> > > sake of transparency).
> > > Matthias
> > >
> > > [1] https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/ <https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/>
> > > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8 
> > > <https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8>
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 11:39 AM Xintong Song  > > <mailto:tonysong...@gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 in general.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design looks
> > > very
> > > > cool.
> > > >
> > > > I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I
> barely
> > > know
> > > > anything about the website design.
> > > > - Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website designs
> at
> > > the
> > > > same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm
> asking
> > > > because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the
> > > original
> > > > website might be more convenient for people who are already familiar
> with
> > > > it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to
> > > users.
> > > > - For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the same
> > > color
> > > > theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much
> effort
> > > > does it require?
> > > > - In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general
> consensus"
> > > and
> > > > "feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have
> you
> > > > conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more
> about
> > > > that?
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Xintong
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM Feifan Wang  > > > <mailto:zoltar9...@163.com>>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized
> > > > >
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > Feifan Wang
> > > > > |
> > > > > |
> > > > > zoltar9...@163.com <mailto:zoltar9...@163.com>
> > > > > |
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  Replied Message 
> > > > > | From | Leonard Xumailto:xbjt...@gmail.com>> |
> > > > > | Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
> > > > > | To | devmailto:dev@flink.apache.org>> |
> > > > > | Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website
> |
> > > > > +1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Leonard
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi
> mailto:mdee...@amazon.com.inva>LID
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the
> Apache
> > > > Flink
> > > > > website: https://flink.apache.org <https://flink.apache.org>. The 
> > > > > approach and a few initial
> > > > mockups
> > > > > are included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website.<
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
>  
> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and
> new
> > > > users
> > > > > easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink
> attractive
> > > to
> > > > > new users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no proposed
> > > > changes
> > > > > to Flink documentation.
> > > > >
> > > > > I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Deepthi
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Ahmed Hamdy]

lowing pages" part but are not listed there?
> > > >
> > > > Additionally, it would be nice to get a bit more insight into the
> > feedback
> > > > from users as Xintong pointed out. It would be interesting to
> > understand
> > > > how the new design helps solving certain problems (besides having the
> > > > motivation to modernize the look and feel).
> > > >
> > > > I'm also wondering whether it's doable to do a discussion (FLIP?) per
> > > > subpage on the design (as proposed by Chesnay in the first discussion
> > on
> > > > this topic [2] to have smaller changes rather than a single big one).
> > But I
> > > > could imagine this being quite tedious because different people might
> > > > have different opinions on how something should be done.
> > > >
> > > > I don't have any experience with frontend design. I'm wondering how
> > much
> > > > time such a redesign takes. Could it be linked to the 2.0 release?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the FLIP (you might want to add [2] to the FLIP's header
> > for the
> > > > sake of transparency).
> > > > Matthias
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/ <
> https://flink.apache.org/roadmap/>
> > > > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
> <https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8>
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 11:39 AM Xintong Song  <mailto:tonysong...@gmail.com>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 in general.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for proposing this contribution, Deepthi. The new design
> looks
> > > > very
> > > > > cool.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a few questions, which might be entry-level given that I
> > barely
> > > > know
> > > > > anything about the website design.
> > > > > - Do you think it's feasible to maintain two sets of website
> designs
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > same time? E.g., adding a button "back to previous version". I'm
> > asking
> > > > > because, while the new UI might be more friendly to newcomers, the
> > > > original
> > > > > website might be more convenient for people who are already
> familiar
> > with
> > > > > it to find things. It would be nice if we can offer both options to
> > > > users.
> > > > > - For the documentation, I wonder if it makes sense to offer the
> same
> > > > color
> > > > > theme as the website, to keep the experience consistent. How much
> > effort
> > > > > does it require?
> > > > > - In the FLIP, you mentioned things like "there's a general
> > consensus"
> > > > and
> > > > > "feedback from customers". I'm curious where these come from. Have
> > you
> > > > > conducted some sort of survey? Would you mind sharing a bit more
> > about
> > > > > that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > Xintong
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 4:57 PM Feifan Wang  <mailto:zoltar9...@163.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 , the new design looks more attractive and is well organized
> > > > > >
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > Feifan Wang
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > zoltar9...@163.com <mailto:zoltar9...@163.com>
> > > > > > |
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Replied Message 
> > > > > > | From | Leonard Xumailto:xbjt...@gmail.com>>
> |
> > > > > > | Date | 07/11/2023 16:34 |
> > > > > > | To | devmailto:dev@flink.apache.org>> |
> > > > > > | Subject | Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink
> website
> > |
> > > > > > +1 for the redesigning, the new website looks cool.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Leonard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Jul 11, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Mohan, Deepthi
> > mailto:mdee...@amazon.com.inva>LID
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m opening this thread to discuss a proposal to redesign the
> > Apache
> > > > > Flink
> > > > > > website: https://flink.apache.org <https://flink.apache.org>.
> The approach and a few initial
> > > > > mockups
> > > > > > are included in FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website.<
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> <
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The goal is to modernize the website design to help existing and
> > new
> > > > > users
> > > > > > easily understand Flink’s value proposition and make Flink
> > attractive
> > > > to
> > > > > > new users. As suggested in a previous thread, there are no
> proposed
> > > > > changes
> > > > > > to Flink documentation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I look forward to your feedback and the discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Deepthi
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Chesnay Schepler]

On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:

However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our conversations often 
comment that the website could do with a redesign


Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are there 
functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I don't 
like the way it looks"?


What had they trouble with? Which information was 
missing/unnecessary/too hard to find?


The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new and 
existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink is, 
the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand its 
value proposition/."


From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals are 
achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a compressed 
nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we throw at 
people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)).


Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed 
text/presentation/diagram changes?


I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes?

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Mohan, Deepthi]

@Chesnay

Thank you for your feedback. 

An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your feedback was to 
keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as each change for text and 
diagrams likely require deeper discussion. Therefore, as a first step I am 
proposing only UX changes with minimal text changes for the pages mentioned in 
the FLIP.

The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and functional 
aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused only on the main 
Flink website [2].

1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the website “there 
is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure *why* I should use 
this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this FLIP helps partially 
address this category of feedback, but we may need to make the use cases and 
value proposition “pop” more than we have currently proposed in the redesign. 
I’d like to get the community’s thoughts on this.

2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared feedback prior that 
I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by developers.” 
Customers also point out other related Apache project websites: [3] and [4] as 
having “modern” user design. The proposed redesign in this FLIP will help 
address this feedback. Modernizing the look and feel of the website will appeal 
to customers who are used to what they encounter on other contemporary websites.

3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what the diagram 
is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] and have said that 
the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from removing the diagram 
on the main page [2], the current FLIP does propose major changes to diagrams 
in the rest of website and we can discuss them separately as they become 
available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused only on the website redesign.

Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in [1], I do not want 
to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this FLIP, my proposal is to 
first work on the UX design as that gives us a good starting point. We can use 
it as a framework to make iterative changes and enhancements to diagrams and 
the actual website content incrementally.

I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the FLIP that will 
give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the main page, What is 
Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages.

And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
[2]https://flink.apache.org/
[3] https://spark.apache.org/
[4] https://kafka.apache.org/

On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler" mailto:ches...@apache.org>> wrote:


CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.






On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our conversations 
> often comment that the website could do with a redesign


Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are there
functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I don't
like the way it looks"?


What had they trouble with? Which information was
missing/unnecessary/too hard to find?


The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new and
existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink is,
the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand its
value proposition/."


From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals are
achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a compressed
nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we throw at
people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)).


Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed
text/presentation/diagram changes?


I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes?

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Yun Tang]

+1 for the new look of website.

And for the content of FLIP, please do not paste the "Detailed designs" under 
the scope of "Rejected Alternatives", you can just post the pictures in the 
"Proposed Changes" part.


Best
Yun Tang

From: Mohan, Deepthi 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2023 14:10
To: dev@flink.apache.org 
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

@Chesnay

Thank you for your feedback.

An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your feedback was to 
keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as each change for text and 
diagrams likely require deeper discussion. Therefore, as a first step I am 
proposing only UX changes with minimal text changes for the pages mentioned in 
the FLIP.

The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and functional 
aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused only on the main 
Flink website [2].

1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the website “there 
is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure *why* I should use 
this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this FLIP helps partially 
address this category of feedback, but we may need to make the use cases and 
value proposition “pop” more than we have currently proposed in the redesign. 
I’d like to get the community’s thoughts on this.

2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared feedback prior that 
I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by developers.” 
Customers also point out other related Apache project websites: [3] and [4] as 
having “modern” user design. The proposed redesign in this FLIP will help 
address this feedback. Modernizing the look and feel of the website will appeal 
to customers who are used to what they encounter on other contemporary websites.

3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what the diagram 
is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] and have said that 
the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from removing the diagram 
on the main page [2], the current FLIP does propose major changes to diagrams 
in the rest of website and we can discuss them separately as they become 
available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused only on the website redesign.

Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in [1], I do not want 
to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this FLIP, my proposal is to 
first work on the UX design as that gives us a good starting point. We can use 
it as a framework to make iterative changes and enhancements to diagrams and 
the actual website content incrementally.

I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the FLIP that will 
give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the main page, What is 
Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages.

And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
[2]https://flink.apache.org/
[3] https://spark.apache.org/
[4] https://kafka.apache.org/

On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler" mailto:ches...@apache.org>> wrote:


CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.






On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our conversations 
> often comment that the website could do with a redesign


Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are there
functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I don't
like the way it looks"?


What had they trouble with? Which information was
missing/unnecessary/too hard to find?


The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new and
existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink is,
the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand its
value proposition/."


From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals are
achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a compressed
nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we throw at
people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)).


Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed
text/presentation/diagram changes?


I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes?

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Chesnay Schepler]

+1

On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:

@Chesnay

Thank you for your feedback.

An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your feedback was to 
keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as each change for text and 
diagrams likely require deeper discussion. Therefore, as a first step I am 
proposing only UX changes with minimal text changes for the pages mentioned in 
the FLIP.

The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and functional 
aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused only on the main 
Flink website [2].

1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the website “there is a 
lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure *why* I should use this" 
and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this FLIP helps partially address 
this category of feedback, but we may need to make the use cases and value 
proposition “pop” more than we have currently proposed in the redesign. I’d like to 
get the community’s thoughts on this.

2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared feedback prior that 
I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by developers.” 
Customers also point out other related Apache project websites: [3] and [4] as 
having “modern” user design. The proposed redesign in this FLIP will help 
address this feedback. Modernizing the look and feel of the website will appeal 
to customers who are used to what they encounter on other contemporary websites.

3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what the diagram 
is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] and have said that 
the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from removing the diagram 
on the main page [2], the current FLIP does propose major changes to diagrams 
in the rest of website and we can discuss them separately as they become 
available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused only on the website redesign.

Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in [1], I do not want 
to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this FLIP, my proposal is to 
first work on the UX design as that gives us a good starting point. We can use 
it as a framework to make iterative changes and enhancements to diagrams and 
the actual website content incrementally.

I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the FLIP that will 
give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the main page, What is 
Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages.

And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
[2]https://flink.apache.org/
[3] https://spark.apache.org/
[4] https://kafka.apache.org/

On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler" mailto:ches...@apache.org>> wrote:


CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.






On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:

However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our conversations often 
comment that the website could do with a redesign


Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are there
functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I don't
like the way it looks"?


What had they trouble with? Which information was
missing/unnecessary/too hard to find?


The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new and
existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink is,
the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand its
value proposition/."


 From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals are
achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a compressed
nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we throw at
people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)).


Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed
text/presentation/diagram changes?


I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes?

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Maximilian Michels]

+1

On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler  wrote:
>
> +1
>
> On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> > @Chesnay
> >
> > Thank you for your feedback.
> >
> > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your feedback 
> > was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as each change for 
> > text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion. Therefore, as a first 
> > step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text changes for the pages 
> > mentioned in the FLIP.
> >
> > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and 
> > functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused only 
> > on the main Flink website [2].
> >
> > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the website 
> > “there is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure *why* I 
> > should use this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this FLIP 
> > helps partially address this category of feedback, but we may need to make 
> > the use cases and value proposition “pop” more than we have currently 
> > proposed in the redesign. I’d like to get the community’s thoughts on this.
> >
> > 2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared feedback prior 
> > that I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by developers.” 
> > Customers also point out other related Apache project websites: [3] and [4] 
> > as having “modern” user design. The proposed redesign in this FLIP will 
> > help address this feedback. Modernizing the look and feel of the website 
> > will appeal to customers who are used to what they encounter on other 
> > contemporary websites.
> >
> > 3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what the 
> > diagram is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] and 
> > have said that the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from 
> > removing the diagram on the main page [2], the current FLIP does propose 
> > major changes to diagrams in the rest of website and we can discuss them 
> > separately as they become available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused only 
> > on the website redesign.
> >
> > Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in [1], I do not 
> > want to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this FLIP, my 
> > proposal is to first work on the UX design as that gives us a good starting 
> > point. We can use it as a framework to make iterative changes and 
> > enhancements to diagrams and the actual website content incrementally.
> >
> > I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the FLIP that will 
> > give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the main page, What 
> > is Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages.
> >
> > And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes.
> >
> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
> > [2]https://flink.apache.org/
> > [3] https://spark.apache.org/
> > [4] https://kafka.apache.org/
> >
> > On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler"  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not 
> > click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know 
> > the content is safe.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> >> However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our conversations 
> >> often comment that the website could do with a redesign
> >
> > Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are there
> > functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I don't
> > like the way it looks"?
> >
> >
> > What had they trouble with? Which information was
> > missing/unnecessary/too hard to find?
> >
> >
> > The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new and
> > existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink is,
> > the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand its
> > value proposition/."
> >
> >
> >  From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals are
> > achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a compressed
> > nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we throw at
> > people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)).
> >
> >
> > Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed
> > text/presentation/diagram changes?
> >
> >
> > I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Martijn Visser]

+0. I think it has to grow on me. A couple of things from my end:

- Have we evaluated if these new designs are an improvement on W3C's
Accessibility, Usability & Inclusion? [1]. It is something that the ASF
rightfully emphasises.
- "there is general consensus in the community that the Flink documentation
is very well-organized and easily searchable." -> That's actually not the
case, there are numerous FLIPs on this topic [2] [3] which haven't been
concluded/implemented.
- I don't think we should put the links to the Github repo and the blog
posts in the footer: these are some of the most read/visited links.

Thanks,

Martijn

[1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/
[2]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685
[3]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation


On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:31 PM Maximilian Michels  wrote:

> +1
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler 
> wrote:
> >
> > +1
> >
> > On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> > > @Chesnay
> > >
> > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > >
> > > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your
> feedback was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as each
> change for text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion. Therefore,
> as a first step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text changes
> for the pages mentioned in the FLIP.
> > >
> > > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and
> functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused only
> on the main Flink website [2].
> > >
> > > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the website
> “there is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure *why* I
> should use this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this FLIP
> helps partially address this category of feedback, but we may need to make
> the use cases and value proposition “pop” more than we have currently
> proposed in the redesign. I’d like to get the community’s thoughts on this.
> > >
> > > 2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared feedback
> prior that I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by
> developers.” Customers also point out other related Apache project
> websites: [3] and [4] as having “modern” user design. The proposed redesign
> in this FLIP will help address this feedback. Modernizing the look and feel
> of the website will appeal to customers who are used to what they encounter
> on other contemporary websites.
> > >
> > > 3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what the
> diagram is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] and
> have said that the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from
> removing the diagram on the main page [2], the current FLIP does propose
> major changes to diagrams in the rest of website and we can discuss them
> separately as they become available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused only
> on the website redesign.
> > >
> > > Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in [1], I do
> not want to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this FLIP, my
> proposal is to first work on the UX design as that gives us a good starting
> point. We can use it as a framework to make iterative changes and
> enhancements to diagrams and the actual website content incrementally.
> > >
> > > I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the FLIP that
> will give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the main page,
> What is Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages.
> > >
> > > And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes.
> > >
> > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
> > > [2]https://flink.apache.org/
> > > [3] https://spark.apache.org/
> > > [4] https://kafka.apache.org/
> > >
> > > On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler"  ches...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and
> know the content is safe.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> > >> However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our
> conversations often comment that the website could do with a redesign
> > >
> > > Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are there
> > > functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I don't
> > > like the way it looks"?
> > >
> > >
> > > What had they trouble with? Which information was
> > > missing/unnecessary/too hard to find?
> > >
> > >
> > > The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new and
> > > existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink is,
> > > the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand its

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Markos Sfikas]

+1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi.

The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they achieve
the goal in general.

A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following:

[a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink documentation, I
would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the 'dark
mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more
consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page to
the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the
website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity perspective
that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch
between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy to
read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on dark
background).

[b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website has
use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical
characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed
correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone new to
Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand
firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that make
Flink stand out. I would suggest having one 'Use Cases' section above the
'technical characteristics' to have a separation between the two and easily
navigate to the Flink use cases pages [2] directly from this section.\

Thank you
Markos

[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
[2] https://flink.apache.org/use-cases/

On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 10:46 AM Martijn Visser 
wrote:

> +0. I think it has to grow on me. A couple of things from my end:
>
> - Have we evaluated if these new designs are an improvement on W3C's
> Accessibility, Usability & Inclusion? [1]. It is something that the ASF
> rightfully emphasises.
> - "there is general consensus in the community that the Flink documentation
> is very well-organized and easily searchable." -> That's actually not the
> case, there are numerous FLIPs on this topic [2] [3] which haven't been
> concluded/implemented.
> - I don't think we should put the links to the Github repo and the blog
> posts in the footer: these are some of the most read/visited links.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Martijn
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/
> [2]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685
> [3]
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:31 PM Maximilian Michels  wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> > > > @Chesnay
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > > >
> > > > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your
> > feedback was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as each
> > change for text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion. Therefore,
> > as a first step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text changes
> > for the pages mentioned in the FLIP.
> > > >
> > > > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and
> > functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused
> only
> > on the main Flink website [2].
> > > >
> > > > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the
> website
> > “there is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure *why*
> I
> > should use this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this FLIP
> > helps partially address this category of feedback, but we may need to
> make
> > the use cases and value proposition “pop” more than we have currently
> > proposed in the redesign. I’d like to get the community’s thoughts on
> this.
> > > >
> > > > 2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared feedback
> > prior that I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by
> > developers.” Customers also point out other related Apache project
> > websites: [3] and [4] as having “modern” user design. The proposed
> redesign
> > in this FLIP will help address this feedback. Modernizing the look and
> feel
> > of the website will appeal to customers who are used to what they
> encounter
> > on other contemporary websites.
> > > >
> > > > 3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what
> the
> > diagram is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] and
> > have said that the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from
> > removing the diagram on the main page [2], the current FLIP does propose
> > major changes to diagrams in the rest of website and we can discuss them
> > separately as they become available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused
> only
> > on the website redesign.
> > > >
> > > > Ultima

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Matthias Pohl]

I think Martijn and Markos brought up a few good points:

- We shouldn't degrade the accessibility but ideally improve it as part of
the redesign. The current proposal doesn't look like we're doing changes in
a way that it lowers the accessibility (considering that the menu structure
stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with images). But
nonetheless, it would be good to have this topic explicitly covered in the
FLIP.

- I see Markos' concern about the white vs black background (Flink
documentation vs Flink website): Does it make a big difference to change to
a white background design? The switch to dark mode could happen after a
similar (or the same) theme is supported by the documentation. Or are there
other reasons why the dark background is favorable?

Best,
Matthias

On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:28 PM Markos Sfikas
 wrote:

> +1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi.
>
> The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they achieve
> the goal in general.
>
> A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following:
>
> [a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink documentation, I
> would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the 'dark
> mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more
> consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page to
> the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the
> website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity perspective
> that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch
> between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy to
> read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on dark
> background).
>
> [b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website has
> use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical
> characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed
> correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone new to
> Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand
> firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that make
> Flink stand out. I would suggest having one 'Use Cases' section above the
> 'technical characteristics' to have a separation between the two and easily
> navigate to the Flink use cases pages [2] directly from this section.\
>
> Thank you
> Markos
>
> [1]
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> [2] https://flink.apache.org/use-cases/
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 10:46 AM Martijn Visser 
> wrote:
>
> > +0. I think it has to grow on me. A couple of things from my end:
> >
> > - Have we evaluated if these new designs are an improvement on W3C's
> > Accessibility, Usability & Inclusion? [1]. It is something that the ASF
> > rightfully emphasises.
> > - "there is general consensus in the community that the Flink
> documentation
> > is very well-organized and easily searchable." -> That's actually not the
> > case, there are numerous FLIPs on this topic [2] [3] which haven't been
> > concluded/implemented.
> > - I don't think we should put the links to the Github repo and the blog
> > posts in the footer: these are some of the most read/visited links.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Martijn
> >
> > [1]
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/
> > [2]
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685
> > [3]
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:31 PM Maximilian Michels 
> wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> > > > > @Chesnay
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > > > >
> > > > > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your
> > > feedback was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as
> each
> > > change for text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion.
> Therefore,
> > > as a first step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text
> changes
> > > for the pages mentioned in the FLIP.
> > > > >
> > > > > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and
> > > functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused
> > only
> > > on the main Flink website [2].
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the
> > website
> > > “there is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure
> *why*
> > I
> > > should use this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this
> FLIP
> > > helps partially address this category of feedback, but we may need to
> > make
> > > the use cases and value proposition “pop” more than we have currently
> > > proposed in the redesign. I’d like to get the community’s

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[liu ron]

+1,

The dark mode looks very cool.

Best,
Ron

Matthias Pohl  于2023年7月20日周四 15:45写道：

> I think Martijn and Markos brought up a few good points:
>
> - We shouldn't degrade the accessibility but ideally improve it as part of
> the redesign. The current proposal doesn't look like we're doing changes in
> a way that it lowers the accessibility (considering that the menu structure
> stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with images). But
> nonetheless, it would be good to have this topic explicitly covered in the
> FLIP.
>
> - I see Markos' concern about the white vs black background (Flink
> documentation vs Flink website): Does it make a big difference to change to
> a white background design? The switch to dark mode could happen after a
> similar (or the same) theme is supported by the documentation. Or are there
> other reasons why the dark background is favorable?
>
> Best,
> Matthias
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:28 PM Markos Sfikas
>  wrote:
>
> > +1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi.
> >
> > The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they achieve
> > the goal in general.
> >
> > A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following:
> >
> > [a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink documentation,
> I
> > would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the 'dark
> > mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more
> > consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page to
> > the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the
> > website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity perspective
> > that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch
> > between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy to
> > read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on dark
> > background).
> >
> > [b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website has
> > use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical
> > characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed
> > correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone new
> to
> > Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand
> > firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that
> make
> > Flink stand out. I would suggest having one 'Use Cases' section above the
> > 'technical characteristics' to have a separation between the two and
> easily
> > navigate to the Flink use cases pages [2] directly from this section.\
> >
> > Thank you
> > Markos
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
> > [2] https://flink.apache.org/use-cases/
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 10:46 AM Martijn Visser <
> martijnvis...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +0. I think it has to grow on me. A couple of things from my end:
> > >
> > > - Have we evaluated if these new designs are an improvement on W3C's
> > > Accessibility, Usability & Inclusion? [1]. It is something that the ASF
> > > rightfully emphasises.
> > > - "there is general consensus in the community that the Flink
> > documentation
> > > is very well-organized and easily searchable." -> That's actually not
> the
> > > case, there are numerous FLIPs on this topic [2] [3] which haven't been
> > > concluded/implemented.
> > > - I don't think we should put the links to the Github repo and the blog
> > > posts in the footer: these are some of the most read/visited links.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Martijn
> > >
> > > [1]
> > https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/
> > > [2]
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685
> > > [3]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:31 PM Maximilian Michels 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler <
> ches...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > +1
> > > > >
> > > > > On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote:
> > > > > > @Chesnay
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your
> > > > feedback was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as
> > each
> > > > change for text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion.
> > Therefore,
> > > > as a first step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text
> > changes
> > > > for the pages mentioned in the FLIP.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and
> > > > functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused
> > > only
> > > > on the main Flink website [2].
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the
> > > website
> > >

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Mohan, Deepthi]

Matthias, Markos, Martijn, thank you for your feedback.

Markos, I've addressed you feedback re: separating use cases from the Flink 
capabilities. I think it is a positive change that will help new users 
distinguish between the two.
Also attached screenshots for 'light mode'. I am personally partial to dark 
mode, and several developers say they prefer dark mode vs light generally. 
However, this is not a specific question I've posed to customers regarding the 
Flink website. In addition, after talking to engineering, I've been told it's 
not 2x the effort to introduce both modes on the website and a toggle to switch 
between the two. For implementation, we could start with one mode, without the 
toggle.

Mattias, your comments about accessibility were very useful and helped us to 
further improve the design. A UX designer (Kaushal, also new to the community) 
helped evaluate the color and text size for accessibility. He can respond to 
any specific questions that you may have about accessibility. I did not quite 
get the related comment about "the menu structure stays the same and there are 
no plans to replace text with images". However, since it's not there in the 
current website I propose we table this conversation for now.

Martijn, thanks for your comment on accessibility. I hope some of your concerns 
are addressed above in my response to Mattias and the screenshots now attached 
to the FLIP. I have purposely kept documentation out of scope due to the 
comments received in the previous discussion thread on this topic [1]. We will 
also include links to the blog and GitHub repo in the drop down under the 
getting started menu as well as include the links at the bottom of the page (as 
seen in a few other Apache websites).

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8

Thanks,
Deepthi




On 7/23/23, 7:22 PM, "liu ron" mailto:ron9@gmail.com>> wrote:


CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.






+1,


The dark mode looks very cool.


Best,
Ron


Matthias Pohl mailto:matthias.p...@aiven.io.inva>lid> 于2023年7月20日周四 15:45写道：


> I think Martijn and Markos brought up a few good points:
>
> - We shouldn't degrade the accessibility but ideally improve it as part of
> the redesign. The current proposal doesn't look like we're doing changes in
> a way that it lowers the accessibility (considering that the menu structure
> stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with images). But
> nonetheless, it would be good to have this topic explicitly covered in the
> FLIP.
>
> - I see Markos' concern about the white vs black background (Flink
> documentation vs Flink website): Does it make a big difference to change to
> a white background design? The switch to dark mode could happen after a
> similar (or the same) theme is supported by the documentation. Or are there
> other reasons why the dark background is favorable?
>
> Best,
> Matthias
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:28 PM Markos Sfikas
> mailto:markos.sfi...@aiven.io.inva>lid> wrote:
>
> > +1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi.
> >
> > The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they achieve
> > the goal in general.
> >
> > A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following:
> >
> > [a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink documentation,
> I
> > would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the 'dark
> > mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more
> > consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page to
> > the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the
> > website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity perspective
> > that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch
> > between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy to
> > read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on dark
> > background).
> >
> > [b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website has
> > use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical
> > characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed
> > correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone new
> to
> > Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand
> > firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that
> make
> > Flink stand out. I would suggest having one 'Use Cases' section above the
> > 'technical characteristics' to have a separation between the two and
> easily
> > navigate to the Flink use cases pages [2] directly from this section.\
> >
> > Thank you
> > Markos
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website
>  
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP 333 - Redesign Apache Flink website

[Robert Metzger]

There's now a PR (https://github.com/apache/flink-web/pull/676) and a
preview available for this FLIP (
https://website-refresh.d193kg429zpv7e.amplifyapp.com/).

On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 8:45 AM Mohan, Deepthi 
wrote:

> Matthias, Markos, Martijn, thank you for your feedback.
>
> Markos, I've addressed you feedback re: separating use cases from the
> Flink capabilities. I think it is a positive change that will help new
> users distinguish between the two.
> Also attached screenshots for 'light mode'. I am personally partial to
> dark mode, and several developers say they prefer dark mode vs light
> generally. However, this is not a specific question I've posed to customers
> regarding the Flink website. In addition, after talking to engineering,
> I've been told it's not 2x the effort to introduce both modes on the
> website and a toggle to switch between the two. For implementation, we
> could start with one mode, without the toggle.
>
> Mattias, your comments about accessibility were very useful and helped us
> to further improve the design. A UX designer (Kaushal, also new to the
> community) helped evaluate the color and text size for accessibility. He
> can respond to any specific questions that you may have about
> accessibility. I did not quite get the related comment about "the menu
> structure stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with
> images". However, since it's not there in the current website I propose we
> table this conversation for now.
>
> Martijn, thanks for your comment on accessibility. I hope some of your
> concerns are addressed above in my response to Mattias and the screenshots
> now attached to the FLIP. I have purposely kept documentation out of scope
> due to the comments received in the previous discussion thread on this
> topic [1]. We will also include links to the blog and GitHub repo in the
> drop down under the getting started menu as well as include the links at
> the bottom of the page (as seen in a few other Apache websites).
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8
>
> Thanks,
> Deepthi
>
>
>
>
> On 7/23/23, 7:22 PM, "liu ron"  ron9@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> +1,
>
>
> The dark mode looks very cool.
>
>
> Best,
> Ron
>
>
> Matthias Pohl  matthias.p...@aiven.io.inva>lid> 于2023年7月20日周四 15:45写道：
>
>
> > I think Martijn and Markos brought up a few good points:
> >
> > - We shouldn't degrade the accessibility but ideally improve it as part
> of
> > the redesign. The current proposal doesn't look like we're doing changes
> in
> > a way that it lowers the accessibility (considering that the menu
> structure
> > stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with images). But
> > nonetheless, it would be good to have this topic explicitly covered in
> the
> > FLIP.
> >
> > - I see Markos' concern about the white vs black background (Flink
> > documentation vs Flink website): Does it make a big difference to change
> to
> > a white background design? The switch to dark mode could happen after a
> > similar (or the same) theme is supported by the documentation. Or are
> there
> > other reasons why the dark background is favorable?
> >
> > Best,
> > Matthias
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:28 PM Markos Sfikas
> > mailto:markos.sfi...@aiven.io.inva>lid>
> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi.
> > >
> > > The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they
> achieve
> > > the goal in general.
> > >
> > > A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following:
> > >
> > > [a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink
> documentation,
> > I
> > > would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the
> 'dark
> > > mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more
> > > consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page
> to
> > > the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the
> > > website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity
> perspective
> > > that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch
> > > between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy
> to
> > > read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on
> dark
> > > background).
> > >
> > > [b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website
> has
> > > use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical
> > > characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed
> > > correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone
> new
> > to
> > > Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand
> > > firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that
> > make
> > > Flink stand out. I would suggest