[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Sophie]

Hi Khirano,

On 26/05/2011 01:34, Kazunari Hirano wrote:

Hi Florian,

Did TDF change its mission, from "the evolution of the OpenOffice.org
Community"[1] to "the evolution of the LibreOffice Community"[2]?

[1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/


this is the foundation
[...]

[2] 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-3-3-2-is-now-available-td2714419.html

this is LibreOffice

The Document Foundation is issued, born from the OpenOffice.org 
community with the clear say that we wanted a future for the product and 
the project. Flo said it very well in his first message, I won't repeat.
We support our product LibreOffice also, and the foundation may develop 
other products and support other products too in the future.
That doesn't mean that we forget where we come from, and this is why 
also we are here, trying to unify us again, under the TDF umbrella if 
possible.
Building a foundation ask for a lot of work, energy, time. More and more 
people have confidence in us (soon, next month, the French ministries 
will announce their support), the foundation should also be their home 
for the work, the energy, the time and the money they invest.


Kind regards
Sophie


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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Gozarks]

For what it's worth, I think it is good that this discussion is being
held here. What I see happening is that perspectives and ideas and
difficulties are being openly discussed in a 'public' forum that is
open to all who wish to be involved... and that this 'concept of
openness' is what got me, personally, involved with the OOo
Community... to which I still believe I have useful skills to
contribute, though I am NOT a code-developer (I am a retired media
management and marketing professional)... which has to a great degree
constrained my participation in many of the discussions which take
place on this list... And still, given OOo is to continue 'as
something', it seems to me critical that this conversation continue
right here where it was begun... ~Christine
-

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Volker Merschmann 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alexandro,
>>
>> 2011/5/25 Alexandro Colorado :
>> >
>> > OOo is certainly not death and to a point we've seen more developers
>> > coming through in the project which have legitimate concerns about this
>> > community to keep working.
>> >
>> This is not true and you know it. Can you name any new core developer
>> which has started to work on the project in the last six months? I
>> doubt it.
>> Have a look at
>> http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists/cws-announce/archive/
>> The development has stopped, that's it what happens.
>>
>>
>> Volker
>> --
>> -
>> To unsubscribe send email to dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org
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>
>
> Sorry Volker, I am talking about the 'es' project specifically. We have
> added some new people in the past few weeks. Also chatted with other
> developers that I hang out on IRC.
>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> OpenOffice.org Español
> http://es.openoffice.org
>
>
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Alexandro,
On 25/05/2011 23:02, Alexandro Colorado wrote:



On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Volker Merschmann mailto:merschm...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Alexandro,

2011/5/25 Alexandro Colorado mailto:j...@openoffice.org>>:
 >
 > OOo is certainly not death and to a point we've seen more developers
 > coming through in the project which have legitimate concerns
about this
 > community to keep working.
 >
This is not true and you know it. Can you name any new core developer
which has started to work on the project in the last six months? I
doubt it.
Have a look at
http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists/cws-announce/archive/
The development has stopped, that's it what happens.


Volker
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Sorry Volker, I am talking about the 'es' project specifically. We have
added some new people in the past few weeks. Also chatted with other
developers that I hang out on IRC.


Alexandro, please, fact and realty, you understand that after all what 
has been written and said about the Spanish speaking community we can't 
trust you any more or only backup your says. We know that you are not 
representative of it and the "we" you are talking about is only a very 
very low group of people, that is not the Spanish speaking community at all.
So until others from this Spanish speaking community (and I mean others) 
asserts what you're saying I won't caution it, sorry.


Kind regards
Sophie
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Kazunari Hirano]

Hi Florian,

Did TDF change its mission, from "the evolution of the OpenOffice.org
Community"[1] to "the evolution of the LibreOffice Community"[2]?

[1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/
Our Mission
Our mission is to facilitate the evolution of the OpenOffice.org
Community into a new open, independent, and meritocratic
organizational structure within the next few months. An independent
Foundation is a better match to the values of our contributors, users,
and supporters, and will enable a more effective, efficient,
transparent, and inclusive Community. We will protect past investments
by building on the solid achievements of our first decade, encourage
wide participation in the Community, and co-ordinate activity across
the Community.

[2] 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-3-3-2-is-now-available-td2714419.html
*** About The Document Foundation
The Document Foundation has the mission of facilitating the evolution of
the LibreOffice Community into a new, open, independent, and
meritocratic organization within the next few months. An independent
foundation is a better reflection of the values of our contributors,
users and supporters, and will enable a more effective, efficient and
transparent community. TDF will protect past investments by building on
the achievements of the first decade, will encourage wide participation
within the community, and will co-ordinate activity across the community.

Thanks,
khirano
-- 
Kazunari Hirano - Marketing Project Coordinator - OpenOffice.org
Japanese Language Project
http://ja.openoffice.org/
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Goran Rakic]

У сре, 25. 05 2011. у 15:02 -0500, Alexandro Colorado пише:
>
> We have added some new people in the past few weeks. Also chatted with other
> developers that I hang out on IRC.


That is great, I am looking forward for patches and code for all new
features! As user and integrator I do not care where the code comes
from.

And sorry Roman, while all contributions to the project are equally
important, without a code being written there is no open source project
at all.

Kind regards,
Goran Rakic

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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Sophie]

[resent and amended with the good address, my apologize to the moderators]
Hi Alexandro,
On 25/05/2011 23:02, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Volker Merschmann  > wrote:
>
> Hi Alexandro,
>
> 2011/5/25 Alexandro Colorado  >:
>  >
>  > OOo is certainly not death and to a point we've seen more 
developers

>  > coming through in the project which have legitimate concerns
> about this
>  > community to keep working.
>  >
> This is not true and you know it. Can you name any new core developer
> which has started to work on the project in the last six months? I
> doubt it.
> Have a look at
> http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists/cws-announce/archive/
> The development has stopped, that's it what happens.
>
>
> Volker
> --
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to
> dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org
> 
> For additional commands send email to sy...@marketing.openoffice.org
> 
> with Subject: help
>
>
>
> Sorry Volker, I am talking about the 'es' project specifically. We have
> added some new people in the past few weeks. Also chatted with other
> developers that I hang out on IRC.

Alexandro, please, fact and realty, you understand that after all what 
has been written and said about the Spanish speaking community we can't 
trust you any more or only backup what you says. We know that you are 
not representative of it and the "we" you are talking about is only a 
very very low group of people, that is not the Spanish speaking 
community at all.
So until others from this Spanish speaking community at large (and I 
mean others) asserts what you're saying I (and we) take if for granted 
and won't caution it, sorry.


Kind regards
Sophie
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Roman H. Gelbort]

El 25/05/11 16:58, Volker Merschmann escribió:
> This is not true and you know it. Can you name any new core developer
> which has started to work on the project in the last six months?

Volker... the core developers aren't the only VIP in the project!

-- 
---
Prof. Román H. Gelbort
No busquemos aplicaciones que reemplacen aplicaciones, 
sino aplicaciones que resuelvan problemas específicos...

http://www.piensalibre.com.ar
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Alexandro Colorado]

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Volker Merschmann wrote:

> Hi Alexandro,
>
> 2011/5/25 Alexandro Colorado :
> >
> > OOo is certainly not death and to a point we've seen more developers
> > coming through in the project which have legitimate concerns about this
> > community to keep working.
> >
> This is not true and you know it. Can you name any new core developer
> which has started to work on the project in the last six months? I
> doubt it.
> Have a look at
> http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists/cws-announce/archive/
> The development has stopped, that's it what happens.
>
>
> Volker
> --
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org
> For additional commands send email to sy...@marketing.openoffice.org
> with Subject: help
>


Sorry Volker, I am talking about the 'es' project specifically. We have
added some new people in the past few weeks. Also chatted with other
developers that I hang out on IRC.

-- 
*Alexandro Colorado*
*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Volker Merschmann]

Hi Alexandro,

2011/5/25 Alexandro Colorado :
>
> OOo is certainly not death and to a point we've seen more developers
> coming through in the project which have legitimate concerns about this
> community to keep working.
>
This is not true and you know it. Can you name any new core developer
which has started to work on the project in the last six months? I
doubt it.
Have a look at http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists/cws-announce/archive/
The development has stopped, that's it what happens.


Volker
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Alexandro Colorado]

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Davide Dozza wrote:

> Il 25/05/2011 16:55, Louis Suarez-Potts ha scritto:
> > There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the
> TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the compelling
> ones.
> >
> > And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for
> "community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow
> concerns.
> >
>
> Time is come. As still member of OOo community I *strongly* believe that
> such discussion should be made in public.
> Otherwise we (the community) still fall into our "narrow concers" as it
> was during last ten years.
>
> Community deserves at least a minimum of clarity on OOo future.
> TDF is a possible place to reunify the community and there is nothing
> else on the horizon.
>
> Davide
>
>
>
>
I agree with Davide's point, transparency is really the best way to handle
things. OOo is certainly not death and to a point we've seen more developers
coming through in the project which have legitimate concerns about this
community to keep working.


-- 
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*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Andy Brown]

Davide Dozza wrote:


Time is come. As still member of OOo community I *strongly* believe that
such discussion should be made in public.
Otherwise we (the community) still fall into our "narrow concers" as it
was during last ten years.


It is to bad that the "Community" does not have anything to do with 
this.  Oracle holds the trademark and copyright to OpenOffice.org.  This 
discussion should be happening between Oracle and TDF with the community 
being kept informed of the process/progress, if any.



Community deserves at least a minimum of clarity on OOo future.
TDF is a possible place to reunify the community and there is nothing
else on the horizon.


Yes, we the community, deserves a lot of clarification on the future of 
OOo.  But that will have to come from Oracle not TDF.  As a personal 
point of view I hope that a new foundation will be formed.


Andy
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Davide Dozza]

Il 25/05/2011 16:55, Louis Suarez-Potts ha scritto:
> There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the 
> TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the compelling 
> ones. 
> 
> And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for 
> "community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow 
> concerns.
> 

Time is come. As still member of OOo community I *strongly* believe that
such discussion should be made in public.
Otherwise we (the community) still fall into our "narrow concers" as it
was during last ten years.

Community deserves at least a minimum of clarity on OOo future.
TDF is a possible place to reunify the community and there is nothing
else on the horizon.

Davide





signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Luiz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

Em 25-05-2011 12:08, Gianvittorio escreveu:
> Guys,
> I am sure that a discussion in "neutral territory" can still mean a very 
> transparent and productive conversation too.
> 
> Louis,
> Which forum did you have in mind?


As Florian said, I don't understand why "neutral territory"? I hope we
all, users and interested about this,know where it goes this conversation.


> Gian
> 
> 
> On Wed 25/05/11 16:55 , Louis Suarez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com sent:
>> There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the
>> TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the
>> compelling ones. 
>> And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for
>> "community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow
>> concerns.
>> Louis
>>
>>
>> On 2011-05-25, at 10:29 , Sophie wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Florian, all,
>>> On 25/05/2011 17:00, Florian Effenberger
>> wrote:>> Hi Louis,

 Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25
>> 14.33:>>> Thanks, Florian for the long message
>> :-)>>> But, can I request that we have such advocations
>> (not sure that's a>>> word) presented in a more neutral space? My
>> reasoning, besides the>>> obvious, that this is OOo-land, has to do with
>> simply having a>>> suitable forum for what is likely to be a
>> protracted and contentious>>> discussion, and that sort of thing calls out 
>> for
>> neutrality.>>> 
> I also tend to think that having focused and if
>> possible in-person>>> meetings is immensely helpful.

 as the topic was raised on this public mailing
>> list, and as it concerns>> the OpenOffice.org Community, I thought it is
>> indeed the right approach>> to reply publically to the discussion.

 The question I raised was not rhetorical. I don't
>> want to say "take TDF>> as is", but I am open to feedback and criticism.
>> If there is anything>> that needs to be changed or improved, any
>> criticism that is justified, I>> definitely will not ignore it, but rather 
>> try to
>> work on it and improve>> things. However, I will also take position to
>> criticism that from my>> point of view is simply not justified, and I
>> think, that combination is>> a good basis for a discussion.

 So, again, my question to all of the
>> OpenOffice.org community: Is there>> any particular reason on why working 
>> together,
>> jointly, united, is not>> possible? Is there any justified reason on why
>> working under the>> umbrella of a different foundation, or even
>> setting up another>> foundation in parallel, makes sense?

 I am open to discussion on any channel -- and
>> although I think that the>> OpenOffice.org mailing lists are indeed the right
>> channel to discuss the>> future of the OpenOffice.org community, I am happy
>> to discuss on any>> other channel. Needless to say, I prefer openness
>> and transparency,>> whereever possible.
>>>
>>> And of course, I'll support you in this discussion
>> and completely second your point of view and your position here. In the
>> same way, I would be happy to discuss further with the OpenOffice.org
>> community what can be the best done to join both.> 

 Face to face meetings are of course an option, but
>> it will exclude those>> who cannot participate, so why not initiate the
>> discussion on the list>> here as I did?
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Sophie
>>>

Luiz Oliveira

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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Allen Pulsifer]

Hello Louis,

As a member of the community, I'm trying to understand the situation here,
especially the situation from your point of view.

The Document Foundation has made it clear that if there are no
"negotiations" with OpenOffice.org, they will continue to develop and
release the codebase under the LibreOffice name.

At this point in time, who is continuing to participate in the
OpenOffice.org community?  Having been appointed to your position by Sun
(without an election by the Community), and then terminated by Oracle, do
you feel that you are still qualified to speak for the OpenOffice.org
Community, and if so, in what way and on what basis?

Is Oracle still participating in the OpenOffice.org community, and if so, in
what way?  Who is speaking for Oracle?

What does OpenOffice.org have to contribute at this point to the open source
community?  I understand that Oracle now owns the trademark to
"OpenOffice.org" and the copyright to the codebase.  What does
OpenOffice.org have?

You stated that "...a lot is at stake beyond our narrow concerns."  Who is
the "our" in that statement, what do you see being "our narrow concerns",
and what do you see being at stake "beyond our narrow concerns"?

If OpenOffice.org and The Document Foundation "negotiate", what do you see
as the best possible outcome?  What other possible outcomes can you foresee
that are better than the current direction?

If OpenOffice.org and The Document Foundation "negotiate" and there is no
agreement, what will OpenOffice.org do?  Will there be any more software
development or releases?  Who will do that work?

Thank you,

Allen


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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello everyone,

2011/5/25 Florian Effenberger 

> Hi,
>
> Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25 16.55:
>
>  There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the
>> TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the compelling
>> ones.
>>
>> And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for
>> "community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow
>> concerns.
>>
>
> I still do not understand why a discussion on the future of the
> OpenOffice.org project should *not* belong on a mailing list of that
> project, at least as long as it concerns the community directly.
>
> That being said, if there's a wide interest to have it elsewhere, I surely
> will not object, as long as we can have as much open and transparent as
> possible.
>


Yes indeed. I'd say that it was perhaps not the best thing to start
discussing these matters if it turns out to be not the best place. But I
also think that given the situation the OpenOffice.org project is, a neutral
place is not as critical as Louis might think. I certainly don't want to
upset the community here but I'm sure we should have that conversation now.
We all know each other, and we can all discuss about these things without
the need of a formal "neutral" place. But again, if the community feels it's
offensive we ought to go elsewhere.

Best

Charles.


>
> Florian
>
> --
> Florian Effenberger 
> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Florian Effenberger]

Hi,

Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25 16.55:

There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the 
TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the compelling ones.

And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for 
"community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow 
concerns.


I still do not understand why a discussion on the future of the 
OpenOffice.org project should *not* belong on a mailing list of that 
project, at least as long as it concerns the community directly.


That being said, if there's a wide interest to have it elsewhere, I 
surely will not object, as long as we can have as much open and 
transparent as possible.


Florian

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Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Gianvittorio]

Guys,
I am sure that a discussion in "neutral territory" can still mean a very 
transparent and productive conversation too.

Louis,
Which forum did you have in mind?

Gian


On Wed 25/05/11 16:55 , Louis Suarez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com sent:
> There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the
> TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the
> compelling ones. 
> And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for
> "community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow
> concerns.
> Louis
> 
> 
> On 2011-05-25, at 10:29 , Sophie wrote:
> 
> > Hi Florian, all,
> > On 25/05/2011 17:00, Florian Effenberger
> wrote:>> Hi Louis,
> >> 
> >> Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25
> 14.33:>>> Thanks, Florian for the long message
> :-)>>> But, can I request that we have such advocations
> (not sure that's a>>> word) presented in a more neutral space? My
> reasoning, besides the>>> obvious, that this is OOo-land, has to do with
> simply having a>>> suitable forum for what is likely to be a
> protracted and contentious>>> discussion, and that sort of thing calls out for
> neutrality.>>> 
> >>> I also tend to think that having focused and if
> possible in-person>>> meetings is immensely helpful.
> >> 
> >> as the topic was raised on this public mailing
> list, and as it concerns>> the OpenOffice.org Community, I thought it is
> indeed the right approach>> to reply publically to the discussion.
> >> 
> >> The question I raised was not rhetorical. I don't
> want to say "take TDF>> as is", but I am open to feedback and criticism.
> If there is anything>> that needs to be changed or improved, any
> criticism that is justified, I>> definitely will not ignore it, but rather 
> try to
> work on it and improve>> things. However, I will also take position to
> criticism that from my>> point of view is simply not justified, and I
> think, that combination is>> a good basis for a discussion.
> >> 
> >> So, again, my question to all of the
> OpenOffice.org community: Is there>> any particular reason on why working 
> together,
> jointly, united, is not>> possible? Is there any justified reason on why
> working under the>> umbrella of a different foundation, or even
> setting up another>> foundation in parallel, makes sense?
> >> 
> >> I am open to discussion on any channel -- and
> although I think that the>> OpenOffice.org mailing lists are indeed the right
> channel to discuss the>> future of the OpenOffice.org community, I am happy
> to discuss on any>> other channel. Needless to say, I prefer openness
> and transparency,>> whereever possible.
> > 
> > And of course, I'll support you in this discussion
> and completely second your point of view and your position here. In the
> same way, I would be happy to discuss further with the OpenOffice.org
> community what can be the best done to join both.> 
> >> 
> >> Face to face meetings are of course an option, but
> it will exclude those>> who cannot participate, so why not initiate the
> discussion on the list>> here as I did?
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Sophie
> > 
> > -- 
> >
> -> To 
> unsubscribe send email to dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org> For 
> additional commands send email to 
sy...@marketing.openoffice.org> with Subject: help
> 
> -- 
> -
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> additional commands send email to sympa@marketing.openoffice.orgwith Subject: 
> help
> 
> 
> 

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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Louis Suarez-Potts]

There are many good reasons to have any discussion as proposed by the 
TDF—Florian and Sophie—on a neutral ground. I've mentioned the compelling ones. 

And I also think we need to proceed very carefully here. Not only for 
"community" reasons but also because a lot is at stake beyond our narrow 
concerns.

Louis


On 2011-05-25, at 10:29 , Sophie wrote:

> Hi Florian, all,
> On 25/05/2011 17:00, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>> Hi Louis,
>> 
>> Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25 14.33:
>>> Thanks, Florian for the long message :-)
>>> But, can I request that we have such advocations (not sure that's a
>>> word) presented in a more neutral space? My reasoning, besides the
>>> obvious, that this is OOo-land, has to do with simply having a
>>> suitable forum for what is likely to be a protracted and contentious
>>> discussion, and that sort of thing calls out for neutrality.
>>> 
>>> I also tend to think that having focused and if possible in-person
>>> meetings is immensely helpful.
>> 
>> as the topic was raised on this public mailing list, and as it concerns
>> the OpenOffice.org Community, I thought it is indeed the right approach
>> to reply publically to the discussion.
>> 
>> The question I raised was not rhetorical. I don't want to say "take TDF
>> as is", but I am open to feedback and criticism. If there is anything
>> that needs to be changed or improved, any criticism that is justified, I
>> definitely will not ignore it, but rather try to work on it and improve
>> things. However, I will also take position to criticism that from my
>> point of view is simply not justified, and I think, that combination is
>> a good basis for a discussion.
>> 
>> So, again, my question to all of the OpenOffice.org community: Is there
>> any particular reason on why working together, jointly, united, is not
>> possible? Is there any justified reason on why working under the
>> umbrella of a different foundation, or even setting up another
>> foundation in parallel, makes sense?
>> 
>> I am open to discussion on any channel -- and although I think that the
>> OpenOffice.org mailing lists are indeed the right channel to discuss the
>> future of the OpenOffice.org community, I am happy to discuss on any
>> other channel. Needless to say, I prefer openness and transparency,
>> whereever possible.
> 
> And of course, I'll support you in this discussion and completely second your 
> point of view and your position here. In the same way, I would be happy to 
> discuss further with the OpenOffice.org community what can be the best done 
> to join both.
> 
>> 
>> Face to face meetings are of course an option, but it will exclude those
>> who cannot participate, so why not initiate the discussion on the list
>> here as I did?
> 
> +1
> 
> Kind regards
> Sophie
> 
> -- 
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org
> For additional commands send email to sy...@marketing.openoffice.org
> with Subject: help

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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Sophie]

Hi Florian, all,
On 25/05/2011 17:00, Florian Effenberger wrote:

Hi Louis,

Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25 14.33:

Thanks, Florian for the long message :-)
But, can I request that we have such advocations (not sure that's a
word) presented in a more neutral space? My reasoning, besides the
obvious, that this is OOo-land, has to do with simply having a
suitable forum for what is likely to be a protracted and contentious
discussion, and that sort of thing calls out for neutrality.

I also tend to think that having focused and if possible in-person
meetings is immensely helpful.


as the topic was raised on this public mailing list, and as it concerns
the OpenOffice.org Community, I thought it is indeed the right approach
to reply publically to the discussion.

The question I raised was not rhetorical. I don't want to say "take TDF
as is", but I am open to feedback and criticism. If there is anything
that needs to be changed or improved, any criticism that is justified, I
definitely will not ignore it, but rather try to work on it and improve
things. However, I will also take position to criticism that from my
point of view is simply not justified, and I think, that combination is
a good basis for a discussion.

So, again, my question to all of the OpenOffice.org community: Is there
any particular reason on why working together, jointly, united, is not
possible? Is there any justified reason on why working under the
umbrella of a different foundation, or even setting up another
foundation in parallel, makes sense?

I am open to discussion on any channel -- and although I think that the
OpenOffice.org mailing lists are indeed the right channel to discuss the
future of the OpenOffice.org community, I am happy to discuss on any
other channel. Needless to say, I prefer openness and transparency,
whereever possible.


And of course, I'll support you in this discussion and completely second 
your point of view and your position here. In the same way, I would be 
happy to discuss further with the OpenOffice.org community what can be 
the best done to join both.




Face to face meetings are of course an option, but it will exclude those
who cannot participate, so why not initiate the discussion on the list
here as I did?


+1

Kind regards
Sophie

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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Florian Effenberger]

Hi Louis,

Louis Suarez-Potts wrote on 2011-05-25 14.33:

Thanks, Florian for the long message :-)
But, can I request that we have such advocations (not sure that's a word) 
presented in a more neutral space? My reasoning, besides the obvious, that this 
is OOo-land, has to do with simply having a suitable forum for what is likely 
to be a protracted and contentious discussion, and that sort of thing calls out 
for neutrality.

I also tend to think that having focused and if possible in-person meetings is 
immensely helpful.


as the topic was raised on this public mailing list, and as it concerns 
the OpenOffice.org Community, I thought it is indeed the right approach 
to reply publically to the discussion.


The question I raised was not rhetorical. I don't want to say "take TDF 
as is", but I am open to feedback and criticism. If there is anything 
that needs to be changed or improved, any criticism that is justified, I 
definitely will not ignore it, but rather try to work on it and improve 
things. However, I will also take position to criticism that from my 
point of view is simply not justified, and I think, that combination is 
a good basis for a discussion.


So, again, my question to all of the OpenOffice.org community: Is there 
any particular reason on why working together, jointly, united, is not 
possible? Is there any justified reason on why working under the 
umbrella of a different foundation, or even setting up another 
foundation in parallel, makes sense?


I am open to discussion on any channel -- and although I think that the 
OpenOffice.org mailing lists are indeed the right channel to discuss the 
future of the OpenOffice.org community, I am happy to discuss on any 
other channel. Needless to say, I prefer openness and transparency, 
whereever possible.


Face to face meetings are of course an option, but it will exclude those 
who cannot participate, so why not initiate the discussion on the list 
here as I did?


Florian

--
Florian Effenberger 
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
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[marketing-dev] Re: Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Louis Suarez-Potts]

Thanks, Florian for the long message :-)
But, can I request that we have such advocations (not sure that's a word) 
presented in a more neutral space? My reasoning, besides the obvious, that this 
is OOo-land, has to do with simply having a suitable forum for what is likely 
to be a protracted and contentious discussion, and that sort of thing calls out 
for neutrality.

I also tend to think that having focused and if possible in-person meetings is 
immensely helpful.


Louis


On 2011-05-25, at 08:03 , Florian Effenberger wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have not been subscribed to this list for months, but due to Louis' recent 
> Cc, I was made aware of the discussion going on -- so, as a representant of 
> TDF, but also as someone for whom personally the community means a lot, let 
> me say a few words.
> 
> I indeed see the current situation as an ideal basis for uniting things. The 
> diversity the Community is in now doesn't help anyone. If you now think we, 
> TDF, are happy and get satisfaction out of the current situation, you are 
> terribly wrong. Even if we expected something like that to happen, our 
> intention was to safeguard the project from this eventuality, not to profit 
> from it.
> 
> We all have similar goals: a free office suite, available to everyone. So 
> let's not discuss about the past, about what has happened and about the 
> reasons that led to this, but rather focus on the future.
> 
> I want to openly repeat our invitation to everyone to join The Document 
> Foundation and the LibreOffice Community. Why do I think that we are the 
> right place to continue the work?
> 
> In yesterday's blog post, we summed up where we stand, and reading it will 
> help to understand the current situation:
> 
> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/05/24/updates-on-the-foundation/
> 
> 1. We are vendor neutral. I am sorry that I have to object to Louis' 
> statement of us being a proxy for Microsoft -- nothing can be further from 
> the truth. I must confess, that by statements like these, I feel even 
> personally insulted. I spend many hours per day on a pure volunteer basis, 
> and if anyone can point on those of my doings that are proxying for 
> Microsoft, I would be interested to hear them. Otherwise, I'll ask to stop 
> spreading those wrong assumptions -- as they are simply that: wrong.
> 
> 2. We have a strong legal backing, not only by the German nonprofit "Freies 
> Office Deutschland e.V.", but also by the Software in the Public Interest 
> (SPI), and we are on track with establishing the Foundation as a legal 
> entity. Even right now, we have all options needed for dealing with legal 
> aspects, accepting and spending money. We already can and do maintain 
> trademarks, brands and other assets.
> 
> 3. We have an independent infrastructure that works and is not controlled by 
> nor depends on a single entity. In addition, as we are not using a fixed web 
> framework, we are very flexible in what we do.
> 
> 4. We have not only gained a lot of momentum, but also a strong developer 
> base of more than 200 volunteers, amongst them 40 who contribute on a very 
> regular basis. Yes, of course, any contribution corporations with paid 
> developers do are highly welcome and help a lot -- but already right now, we 
> are in a status where we could drive the project without them, if the worst 
> case would occur. This is something we never managed to achieve in ten years' 
> of OpenOffice.org.
> 
> When I first read the Oracle announcement from April, talking about an 
> independent, noncommercial entity, my first thoughts were -- and still are -- 
> "this is exactly what TDF is doing". I have seen proposals of setting up 
> another foundation, or moving to an existing foundation that is not TDF. 
> Honestly, this does not make very much sense to me. It would again lead to a 
> diversity, would require many efforts, and would continue to irritate the 
> market at large.
> 
> Why reinvent the wheel? OpenOffice.org is already very special in many of its 
> processes. Having it under the umbrella of another, existing entity, would 
> require lots of changes to fit in there. TDF has, from the very beginning, 
> been shaped as a new entity with processes that fit to what we have 
> accomplished the last years. We changed things that didn't work, and improved 
> things that do work -- isn't this the best basis to build on? Let's not waste 
> energy in once again trying to fit under an umbrella, but rather work jointly 
> together on our future.
> 
> I am not saying that TDF does everything right and 100% perfect. We are 
> giving our best, and I think we do a fairly good job. I've seen comments that 
> TDF is missing big corporate support, and that the whole ecosystem is at 
> risk. Again, I consider this terribly wrong. Of course, we would love to have 
> much more support from corporations already, but building this up needs time, 
> requires trust and confidence, and after all, support 

[marketing-dev] Why TDF should be the place for one united Community

[Florian Effenberger]

Hello everyone,

I have not been subscribed to this list for months, but due to Louis' 
recent Cc, I was made aware of the discussion going on -- so, as a 
representant of TDF, but also as someone for whom personally the 
community means a lot, let me say a few words.


I indeed see the current situation as an ideal basis for uniting things. 
The diversity the Community is in now doesn't help anyone. If you now 
think we, TDF, are happy and get satisfaction out of the current 
situation, you are terribly wrong. Even if we expected something like 
that to happen, our intention was to safeguard the project from this 
eventuality, not to profit from it.


We all have similar goals: a free office suite, available to everyone. 
So let's not discuss about the past, about what has happened and about 
the reasons that led to this, but rather focus on the future.


I want to openly repeat our invitation to everyone to join The Document 
Foundation and the LibreOffice Community. Why do I think that we are the 
right place to continue the work?


In yesterday's blog post, we summed up where we stand, and reading it 
will help to understand the current situation:



http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/05/24/updates-on-the-foundation/

1. We are vendor neutral. I am sorry that I have to object to Louis' 
statement of us being a proxy for Microsoft -- nothing can be further 
from the truth. I must confess, that by statements like these, I feel 
even personally insulted. I spend many hours per day on a pure volunteer 
basis, and if anyone can point on those of my doings that are proxying 
for Microsoft, I would be interested to hear them. Otherwise, I'll ask 
to stop spreading those wrong assumptions -- as they are simply that: wrong.


2. We have a strong legal backing, not only by the German nonprofit 
"Freies Office Deutschland e.V.", but also by the Software in the Public 
Interest (SPI), and we are on track with establishing the Foundation as 
a legal entity. Even right now, we have all options needed for dealing 
with legal aspects, accepting and spending money. We already can and do 
maintain trademarks, brands and other assets.


3. We have an independent infrastructure that works and is not 
controlled by nor depends on a single entity. In addition, as we are not 
using a fixed web framework, we are very flexible in what we do.


4. We have not only gained a lot of momentum, but also a strong 
developer base of more than 200 volunteers, amongst them 40 who 
contribute on a very regular basis. Yes, of course, any contribution 
corporations with paid developers do are highly welcome and help a lot 
-- but already right now, we are in a status where we could drive the 
project without them, if the worst case would occur. This is something 
we never managed to achieve in ten years' of OpenOffice.org.


When I first read the Oracle announcement from April, talking about an 
independent, noncommercial entity, my first thoughts were -- and still 
are -- "this is exactly what TDF is doing". I have seen proposals of 
setting up another foundation, or moving to an existing foundation that 
is not TDF. Honestly, this does not make very much sense to me. It would 
again lead to a diversity, would require many efforts, and would 
continue to irritate the market at large.


Why reinvent the wheel? OpenOffice.org is already very special in many 
of its processes. Having it under the umbrella of another, existing 
entity, would require lots of changes to fit in there. TDF has, from the 
very beginning, been shaped as a new entity with processes that fit to 
what we have accomplished the last years. We changed things that didn't 
work, and improved things that do work -- isn't this the best basis to 
build on? Let's not waste energy in once again trying to fit under an 
umbrella, but rather work jointly together on our future.


I am not saying that TDF does everything right and 100% perfect. We are 
giving our best, and I think we do a fairly good job. I've seen comments 
that TDF is missing big corporate support, and that the whole ecosystem 
is at risk. Again, I consider this terribly wrong. Of course, we would 
love to have much more support from corporations already, but building 
this up needs time, requires trust and confidence, and after all, 
support is growing rapidly. If anyone thinks by setting up a new 
foundation or by doing a few phone calls you can get big corporate 
support, I must say that almost sounds delusionary. And does it really 
make sense that in the future, two entities will try that out? Wouldn't 
it be much better to speak united, with one voice?


In my letter of resignation last October 
(http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@marketing.openoffice.org/msg11691.html), I've 
said that I am looking forward to talking again about options to 
cooperate. I feel that time has come now.


So, I would be really interested of what actually prevents from 
cooperating with TDF, and uniting once again. Are there