Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Christine Louise Beems wrote: > Do I understand correctly here that ultimately a web browser type > utility will be capable to open different document formats...? Thanks. > ~Christine That would be one way to have a universal ODF viewer. There have been generic XML/SGML browsers in the past and the long tail of the browser war is behind us. The current browsers, excepting the 'Exploder', are already standards oriented. /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Sorry, I didn't include the link... Bernhard Dippold schrieb: [...] Reading Louis' posting on the ODF adoption list [1] I'm not really sure if this approach is the right one [...] [1]: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/odf-adoption/200912/msg0.html Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Do I understand correctly here that ultimately a web browser type utility will be capable to open different document formats...? Thanks. ~Christine - Original Message - From: "Lars Nooden" To: Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo Bernhard Dippold wrote: ... I know, all people discussing here have of course several applications installed that are implementing ODF, but out does this apply to the average user? Perhaps not now. But it's easy to imagine that there will be a lightweighed ODF viewer application in the near future - and then they'll have two. Here's a start at an ODF viewer application: http://opendocumentfellowship.com/odfviewer http://opendocumentfellowship.com/odfviewer/faq It's stalled at beta when the many OOXML scandals Novell, Microsoft and partners stirred up the FOSS and Open Standards communities. So anyone interested in a generic viewer could pick it up. However, there's not any technical reason why a web browser could not render OpenDocument Format XML in addition to XHTML XML. As far as future viewers go, there the need for a separate viewer could be eliminated by simplifying how web browsers handle XML. IMHO web browsers could be generic XML parsers but pre-loaded with three DTDs or schemas : ODF, Docbook, XHTML and one default stylesheet per DTD or schema. A lot of that becomes easier, if the core of the browser works only with well-formed, valid XML. Support for legacy web sites can be via an extra module perhaps included by default. However, there is an attitude afloat that web browsers should try to kludge a solution to the statelessness of HTTP and HTTPS and be a weak, faint shadow of of java applets, qt or gtk+. IMHO that's a waste of time. However, waste or not, it is not mutually exclusive to pursuing generic XML support in the browser. The two activities might not even compete for the same developer skill sets. Having the browsers, like Firefox or Opera, be able to function as generic XML rendering engines would help OOo in that it would help speed the adoption of OOo's default file format. Regards, /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Bernhard Dippold wrote: >> ... I know, all people discussing here have of >> course several applications installed that are implementing ODF, but out >> does this apply to the average user? > > Perhaps not now. But it's easy to imagine that there will be a > lightweighed ODF viewer application in the near future - and then > they'll have two. Here's a start at an ODF viewer application: http://opendocumentfellowship.com/odfviewer http://opendocumentfellowship.com/odfviewer/faq It's stalled at beta when the many OOXML scandals Novell, Microsoft and partners stirred up the FOSS and Open Standards communities. So anyone interested in a generic viewer could pick it up. However, there's not any technical reason why a web browser could not render OpenDocument Format XML in addition to XHTML XML. As far as future viewers go, there the need for a separate viewer could be eliminated by simplifying how web browsers handle XML. IMHO web browsers could be generic XML parsers but pre-loaded with three DTDs or schemas : ODF, Docbook, XHTML and one default stylesheet per DTD or schema. A lot of that becomes easier, if the core of the browser works only with well-formed, valid XML. Support for legacy web sites can be via an extra module perhaps included by default. However, there is an attitude afloat that web browsers should try to kludge a solution to the statelessness of HTTP and HTTPS and be a weak, faint shadow of of java applets, qt or gtk+. IMHO that's a waste of time. However, waste or not, it is not mutually exclusive to pursuing generic XML support in the browser. The two activities might not even compete for the same developer skill sets. Having the browsers, like Firefox or Opera, be able to function as generic XML rendering engines would help OOo in that it would help speed the adoption of OOo's default file format. Regards, /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Peter, * Peter Junge schrieb: Hi Bernhard, sorry for the late reply, I took some time off. No problem - I've been quite busy too ;-) Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Peter, all, Peter Junge wrote: [...] Whatever installation comes last provides the icons. If it is not customizable during installation... I do not remember any setup routine of any application, that gave me any choice in that regard. There are several applications that ask for the file types to be associated with the program during installation. If you chose not to modify the present associations, the icons stay the same. You're right, that there is no choice for the icons, but even OOo leaves the MS Office icons when you chose not to associate .DOC, .XLS and .PPT files with OOo. [...] My approach: show the user by the icons which application is the standard one to open a certain file format. This may be done by an application symbol in rather low contrast (to keep the main interest on the ODF part). Is this a real use case? I know, all people discussing here have of course several applications installed that are implementing ODF, but out does this apply to the average user? Perhaps not now. But it's easy to imagine that there will be a lightweighed ODF viewer application in the near future - and then they'll have two. (I'd include this viewer in OOo to reduce startup time, but that's another story) In case their are several applications installed, the user should be able to choose using the context menu, Gnome for example does it that way. A next step to better user experience could be to first display a common icon, as proposed here for ODF, and when hovering over it a list of application specific icons pops up. But that's not within the scope of OOo, but it's up to the desktop projects. All this discussion is a bit out of OOo scope - but it's our task in OOo marketing to avoid developments that might reduce our presence in the user's mind. I don't want people to say "I opened this ODF program - can't remember it's name". If they said "I opened the ODF program with the bird symbol" I'd be fine... The present ODF icons don't have anything in common with our application icons - this is negative OOo marketing in my eyes. At least if people want to modify their documents it is important which application is opening, beacuse the features differ quite a lot. If you only want to view a PDF or JPG file (or hear a MP3), this is less important. Well it's certainly a difference if a JPEG is opened with a viewer or with a manipulator. Same with ODF: Even if the viewer is not finished by now, it's very likely to come. The present ODF supporting applications differ in functionality, so different manipulations are possible. General remark: I didn't find the time to read the whole discussion here, so I might reiterate things that have already been said. Anyway I think this discussion is mostly happening at the wrong place. As we have often emphasized "OOo is not equal ODF". Consequently, a standardized set of icons for ODF should be specified and provided by the ODF Adoption TC at OASIS [1]. Subsequently the ODF Adoption TC would recommend the use of this icon set to the implementers and later measure the success of its work. The present iconset has been created by the art team at Sun and is already integrated in StarOffice 9.2. Integration in OOo has been hold back (probably until OOo 3.3) to coordinate with the project while in the meantime contact to OASIS has been searched. In my eyes this should have been coordinated before - and I read some of the comments here and on other lists, that there are several backdrafts in the present icons that should be handled before the request to define them as officially approved OASIS iconset. BTW, everybody is welcome even encouraged to send comments to OASIS TCs, for the ODF Adoption TC, you find the how-to here: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/comments/index.php?wg_abbrev=odf-adoption I thought about it, but up to now I hoped OOo would be able to find an internal solution rather to move our different opinions outside the project. Reading Louis' posting on the ODF adoption list [1] I'm not really sure if this approach is the right one - he wrote that these icons are going to be implemented in OOo unmodified (at least without additional OOo symbols and colors). Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. As mentioned before: because different applications provide different actions to one file format (one is viewer, others are meant to modify the file), I'd like to add an area in the icons that shows a symbol or graphical element of the standard application opening the file. Likely it would also be good to add another graphical element that indicates the action after opening. You mean: read or modify? I unders
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Bernhard, sorry for the late reply, I took some time off. Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Peter, all, Peter Junge wrote: John McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > [snip] >> 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo >> branding on user's desktops. >> >> 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore >> used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as >> there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). > > I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus > Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish > IBM ones. Isn't this a general issue? Whatever installation comes last provides the icons. If it is not customizable during installation... I do not remember any setup routine of any application, that gave me any choice in that regard. > > As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting > applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications > sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need > to know what application will start when they click an icon. > Unfortunately, there can only be one icon per file format with current desktop environments regardless of the number of supporting applications installed, as well different users might have a different preferences to choose standard or application specific icons, hence there has to be a solution to meet the users will in an easy way. My approach: show the user by the icons which application is the standard one to open a certain file format. This may be done by an application symbol in rather low contrast (to keep the main interest on the ODF part). Is this a real use case? I know, all people discussing here have of course several applications installed that are implementing ODF, but out does this apply to the average user? In case their are several applications installed, the user should be able to choose using the context menu, Gnome for example does it that way. A next step to better user experience could be to first display a common icon, as proposed here for ODF, and when hovering over it a list of application specific icons pops up. But that's not within the scope of OOo, but it's up to the desktop projects. At least if people want to modify their documents it is important which application is opening, beacuse the features differ quite a lot. If you only want to view a PDF or JPG file (or hear a MP3), this is less important. Well it's certainly a difference if a JPEG is opened with a viewer or with a manipulator. General remark: I didn't find the time to read the whole discussion here, so I might reiterate things that have already been said. Anyway I think this discussion is mostly happening at the wrong place. As we have often emphasized "OOo is not equal ODF". Consequently, a standardized set of icons for ODF should be specified and provided by the ODF Adoption TC at OASIS [1]. Subsequently the ODF Adoption TC would recommend the use of this icon set to the implementers and later measure the success of its work. The present iconset has been created by the art team at Sun and is already integrated in StarOffice 9.2. Integration in OOo has been hold back (probably until OOo 3.3) to coordinate with the project while in the meantime contact to OASIS has been searched. In my eyes this should have been coordinated before - and I read some of the comments here and on other lists, that there are several backdrafts in the present icons that should be handled before the request to define them as officially approved OASIS iconset. BTW, everybody is welcome even encouraged to send comments to OASIS TCs, for the ODF Adoption TC, you find the how-to here: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/comments/index.php?wg_abbrev=odf-adoption Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. As mentioned before: because different applications provide different actions to one file format (one is viewer, others are meant to modify the file), I'd like to add an area in the icons that shows a symbol or graphical element of the standard application opening the file. Likely it would also be good to add another graphical element that indicates the action after opening. A consistent set of icons provided by the desktop seems to be very nice from the artwork point of view, but sometimes leads to hardly distinguishable similarities. I agree with you on the benefit of a general symbol language - without regards to the application, a text document should be represented by the same symbols. But I don't see a reason to remove the application information from the icons... Well I guess we're in trouble anyway. The desktop projects are creating their
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Peter Junge wrote (1-12-2009 8:18) General remark: I didn't find the time to read the whole discussion here, so I might reiterate things that have already been said. Anyway I think this discussion is mostly happening at the wrong place. As we have often emphasized "OOo is not equal ODF". Consequently, a standardized set of icons for ODF should be specified and provided by the ODF Adoption TC at OASIS [1]. Subsequently the ODF Adoption TC would recommend the use of this icon set to the implementers and later measure the success of its work. True. Also it is understandable that the OpenOffice.org project spends some extra energy on the topic. But the more in coop. with ODF Adop TC, the better. Ciao - Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi Drew, * Drew Jensen schrieb: Juergen Schmidt wrote: > [...] the key message of the icons is to strengthen the ODF brand. > And that application independent! For ODF it is important that > people understand the openness of the format, that it is based on > a standard and that it can be used with different applications. > > From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique > icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is > the default app on the system to open these files. [FYI - I started this email a few days ago and some of the points have been made by others, but I wanted to comment so will just send it as is..] Could not agree more with that opinion, when the discussion is regarding mime file type icons. The value of branding the actual file types for ODF it seems to me is one of the most important steps to be performed at this point. OpenOffice.org, thanks to the work of many individuals and organizations, has achieved a strong name recognition. [...] Name recognition and market share are capital, and capital needs to be invested - an investment targeted to building an ODF brand like a winning proposition from even an OpenOffice.org centric perspective. I'm all with you on that point - branding ODF is good investment for OOo. (OK - I already wrote this several times and should not repeat myself too much...) The new file type icon set developed appears quite good to my eye; the lack, or singularity, of the color theme seems to me a good thing. Think Adobe here for their simple red themed PDF format. PDF is only one file type, the ODF file types differ much between each other. Recognition by their grey symbols might be not enough IMHO. Microsoft has already established a rather strong association between blue and doc file format - OK, we have a little different blue - works for me :>) After all we want folks to refer to text documents and mean Open Document Text Documents...right. Not only text documents: With the new icons we refer to spreadsheets, presentations, databases too. There is no assiciation with blue - and users (especially the MS Office users we want to convince to move) await green, orange or crimson/violet colors for these file types. This could be solved with different colors for the "ODF" area, but it would reduce the strength of the ODF branding. I'd keep one color scheme for ODF branding (preferably colors not already associated with a certain file type - and the ODF logo already uses such colors: yellow and violet), but add the file type information otherwise. With the MS Offfice color similarities we used up to now people keep present associations - so why not add them (less prominent) to the icons? Another way would be using the different ODF file formats in the same style as branding elements: ODF text document ODF spreadsheet document ODF presentation document ODF graphics document and so on. The brackets symbolize the ODF origin as XML based file format, together with the repetitive usage of "OD" and the colored background this might give a sufficient association with ODF as the basis for different document file formats. That said, and just to be sure, there is no talk here of changing the icons displayed by the OpenOffice.org executables - in all their current and glorious color. I believe that's correct? I don't understand the reason to reduce the visual relation between application and document icons. The application icons are much less visible than the document icons: People tend to open a file directly instead of opening the application first and then open a document inside this program. I'd add the ODF badge to the application icons too - this shows that all the OOo applications support ODF, it keeps consistency between application and document icon and improves branding on both ODF and OOo. To me then the issue that is of concern is the start center. I really think that users will have no problem making a distinction, in their minds, between what we display in the start center and what we display in the operating system supplied functionality for file types. ( Explorer, Finder, Browser, etc ) At the moment the start center displays the document icons, but it might be discussed if they don't behave like the app icons: They open the apps with an empty document. So why not show the app icons instead? Once we found a common design for the document icons, the start center will have to get a new design - perhaps a new functionality too ... That does not mean I feel *strongly* that the current application icons must not be changed, or the actual start center graphics - if someone in the arts group wants to take a run at adding our current color theme to the proposed mime type icons for use in the start center I for one would love to see it. I don't see a reason for a third set of icons besides the app and the doc icons. (You know my o
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi all, I am also still thinking about a startcenter solution, because there is a chance we use new ODF icons and lose the color scheme. So I made this time a prototype based on my dark icon design. I removed all icons, because in this way we are icons independent... http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:Startmenu-dark.png regards Jens - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Jürgen, all, Juergen Schmidt schrieb: Bernhard Dippold wrote: [...] Peter Junge wrote: [...] Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. As mentioned before: because different applications provide different actions to one file format (one is viewer, others are meant to modify the file), I'd like to add an area in the icons that shows a symbol or graphical element of the standard application opening the file. mmh, maybe you can show us something real instead of repeating again and again that it should have been done differently. Sorry, if I sound repetitive. Peter wrote, that he didn't read the whole discussion, therefore I repeated the main content. Show us your icons and we can discuss it. My intention here was to find a basic agreement on what is important on such icons - before we start to create them. But in the meantime the Art Project started a few drafts, some of them quite different form any present document icon, some more "classical". i got notice so far, thanks. I have forgotten to enable automatic check for new messages on my a...@marketing.openoffice.org mail folder ;-) The icons (especially mine) are not more than a graphical basis for an idea how it could look like - and that it is possible to combine the information even on small icons. These first drafts have been uploaded to the artist sandbox at the wiki: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Art/Artist_Sandbox i got it but i have no real opinion. As i mentioned before i don't need an application specific icons and i would always use what's the default icon set for ODF. And by the way i like the grey ones. And sorry if it sounds unfriendly but talking only is not enough and we already know your opinion. No problem - even if I think that a discussion is much more than talking about different opinions. If you can convince me (and others of course) that the grey icons without OOo symbol serve OOo better than colored ones (or the other way round), this would lead to a broader, if not general, agreement on the principles behind the icons. we will see how the discussion moves forward on disc...@ux Juergen And on such a basis the design specialists can work on an optimized set of icons. Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Jürgen, all, Juergen Schmidt schrieb: Bernhard Dippold wrote: [...] Peter Junge wrote: [...] Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. As mentioned before: because different applications provide different actions to one file format (one is viewer, others are meant to modify the file), I'd like to add an area in the icons that shows a symbol or graphical element of the standard application opening the file. mmh, maybe you can show us something real instead of repeating again and again that it should have been done differently. Sorry, if I sound repetitive. Peter wrote, that he didn't read the whole discussion, therefore I repeated the main content. Show us your icons and we can discuss it. My intention here was to find a basic agreement on what is important on such icons - before we start to create them. But in the meantime the Art Project started a few drafts, some of them quite different form any present document icon, some more "classical". The icons (especially mine) are not more than a graphical basis for an idea how it could look like - and that it is possible to combine the information even on small icons. These first drafts have been uploaded to the artist sandbox at the wiki: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Art/Artist_Sandbox And sorry if it sounds unfriendly but talking only is not enough and we already know your opinion. No problem - even if I think that a discussion is much more than talking about different opinions. If you can convince me (and others of course) that the grey icons without OOo symbol serve OOo better than colored ones (or the other way round), this would lead to a broader, if not general, agreement on the principles behind the icons. And on such a basis the design specialists can work on an optimized set of icons. Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Juergen Schmidt wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. Is that really the point? I think no, the key message of the icons is to strengthen the ODF brand. And that application independent! For ODF it is important that people understand the openness of the format, that it is based on a standard and that it can be used with different applications. From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is the default app on the system to open these files. [FYI - I started this email a few days ago and some of the points have been made by others, but I wanted to comment so will just send it as is..] Could not agree more with that opinion, when the discussion is regarding mime file type icons. The value of branding the actual file types for ODF it seems to me is one of the most important steps to be performed at this point. OpenOffice.org, thanks to the work of many individuals and organizations, has achieved a strong name recognition. OpenOffice.org with the apparent penetration obtained to date in the Microsoft desktop market and near certain majority of the Linux desktop, is really the only application to spearhead this effort. Name recognition and market share are capital, and capital needs to be invested - an investment targeted to building an ODF brand like a winning proposition from even an OpenOffice.org centric perspective. The new file type icon set developed appears quite good to my eye; the lack, or singularity, of the color theme seems to me a good thing. Think Adobe here for their simple red themed PDF format. Microsoft has already established a rather strong association between blue and doc file format - OK, we have a little different blue - works for me :>) After all we want folks to refer to text documents and mean Open Document Text Documents...right. That said, and just to be sure, there is no talk here of changing the icons displayed by the OpenOffice.org executables - in all their current and glorious color. I believe that's correct? To me then the issue that is of concern is the start center. I really think that users will have no problem making a distinction, in their minds, between what we display in the start center and what we display in the operating system supplied functionality for file types. ( Explorer, Finder, Browser, etc ) That does not mean I feel *strongly* that the current application icons must not be changed, or the actual start center graphics - if someone in the arts group wants to take a run at adding our current color theme to the proposed mime type icons for use in the start center I for one would love to see it. What I would hope to see along with such a change would be a shift in the marketing materials such that the ODF mime file-type icons are emphasized over a diminished perhaps, but maintained, use of the OpenOffice.org specific application icons - and - color themes. This is my definition of investing OpenOffice.org capital, this inclusion of ODF as a specific feature within all of the communities activities. It seems to me that such an action would make it more likely that Linux distributions would want to use these mime type icons in their default, non application specific, icon sets. With regards to other applications that also use the ODF file type and OS distro's changing the application icons - well they do that now, so that is a non issue in my mind - just assume they will do so in the future. Actually, looking at this question of separating the use of the odf mime type icons from the start center I can't help but think such would be best for the other cross platform applications based on OpenOffice.org code - Symphony, OOo4Kids jump to mind, then count in Novell OpenOffice.org, Star Office. Each project going after a slightly different segment of users and so seems fitting that they will want to change the application specific iconography to match. In the case of OOo4Kids, Novell OO.o and Star Office each use the start center, IIRC. IMO building such brand recognition for ODF will require not just our use of the icons but will require an active and orchestrated outreach to other groups and organizations from individuals within the OpenOffice.org community. [again I saw some mail about such actions ] As for timing - outreach first seems to be what I am reading in a number of emails, well - IMO - leadin
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Peter, all, Peter Junge wrote: John McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > [snip] >> 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo >> branding on user's desktops. >> >> 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore >> used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as >> there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). > > I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus > Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish > IBM ones. Isn't this a general issue? Whatever installation comes last provides the icons. If it is not customizable during installation... > > As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting > applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications > sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need > to know what application will start when they click an icon. > Unfortunately, there can only be one icon per file format with current desktop environments regardless of the number of supporting applications installed, as well different users might have a different preferences to choose standard or application specific icons, hence there has to be a solution to meet the users will in an easy way. My approach: show the user by the icons which application is the standard one to open a certain file format. This may be done by an application symbol in rather low contrast (to keep the main interest on the ODF part). At least if people want to modify their documents it is important which application is opening, beacuse the features differ quite a lot. If you only want to view a PDF or JPG file (or hear a MP3), this is less important. General remark: I didn't find the time to read the whole discussion here, so I might reiterate things that have already been said. Anyway I think this discussion is mostly happening at the wrong place. As we have often emphasized "OOo is not equal ODF". Consequently, a standardized set of icons for ODF should be specified and provided by the ODF Adoption TC at OASIS [1]. Subsequently the ODF Adoption TC would recommend the use of this icon set to the implementers and later measure the success of its work. The present iconset has been created by the art team at Sun and is already integrated in StarOffice 9.2. Integration in OOo has been hold back (probably until OOo 3.3) to coordinate with the project while in the meantime contact to OASIS has been searched. In my eyes this should have been coordinated before - and I read some of the comments here and on other lists, that there are several backdrafts in the present icons that should be handled before the request to define them as officially approved OASIS iconset. Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. As mentioned before: because different applications provide different actions to one file format (one is viewer, others are meant to modify the file), I'd like to add an area in the icons that shows a symbol or graphical element of the standard application opening the file. mmh, maybe you can show us something real instead of repeating again and again that it should have been done differently. Show us your icons and we can discuss it. And sorry if it sounds unfriendly but talking only is not enough and we already know your opinion. Just my 2 cents Juergen A consistent set of icons provided by the desktop seems to be very nice from the artwork point of view, but sometimes leads to hardly distinguishable similarities. I agree with you on the benefit of a general symbol language - without regards to the application, a text document should be represented by the same symbols. But I don't see a reason to remove the application information from the icons... Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Peter, all, Peter Junge wrote: John McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > [snip] >> 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo >> branding on user's desktops. >> >> 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore >> used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as >> there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). > > I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus > Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish > IBM ones. Isn't this a general issue? Whatever installation comes last provides the icons. If it is not customizable during installation... > > As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting > applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications > sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need > to know what application will start when they click an icon. > Unfortunately, there can only be one icon per file format with current desktop environments regardless of the number of supporting applications installed, as well different users might have a different preferences to choose standard or application specific icons, hence there has to be a solution to meet the users will in an easy way. My approach: show the user by the icons which application is the standard one to open a certain file format. This may be done by an application symbol in rather low contrast (to keep the main interest on the ODF part). At least if people want to modify their documents it is important which application is opening, beacuse the features differ quite a lot. If you only want to view a PDF or JPG file (or hear a MP3), this is less important. General remark: I didn't find the time to read the whole discussion here, so I might reiterate things that have already been said. Anyway I think this discussion is mostly happening at the wrong place. As we have often emphasized "OOo is not equal ODF". Consequently, a standardized set of icons for ODF should be specified and provided by the ODF Adoption TC at OASIS [1]. Subsequently the ODF Adoption TC would recommend the use of this icon set to the implementers and later measure the success of its work. The present iconset has been created by the art team at Sun and is already integrated in StarOffice 9.2. Integration in OOo has been hold back (probably until OOo 3.3) to coordinate with the project while in the meantime contact to OASIS has been searched. In my eyes this should have been coordinated before - and I read some of the comments here and on other lists, that there are several backdrafts in the present icons that should be handled before the request to define them as officially approved OASIS iconset. Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. As mentioned before: because different applications provide different actions to one file format (one is viewer, others are meant to modify the file), I'd like to add an area in the icons that shows a symbol or graphical element of the standard application opening the file. A consistent set of icons provided by the desktop seems to be very nice from the artwork point of view, but sometimes leads to hardly distinguishable similarities. I agree with you on the benefit of a general symbol language - without regards to the application, a text document should be represented by the same symbols. But I don't see a reason to remove the application information from the icons... Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
John McCreesh wrote: On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: [snip] 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo branding on user's desktops. 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish IBM ones. Isn't this a general issue? Whatever installation comes last provides the icons. As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need to know what application will start when they click an icon. Unfortunately, there can only be one icon per file format with current desktop environments regardless of the number of supporting applications installed, as well different users might have a different preferences to choose standard or application specific icons, hence there has to be a solution to meet the users will in an easy way. General remark: I didn't find the time to read the whole discussion here, so I might reiterate things that have already been said. Anyway I think this discussion is mostly happening at the wrong place. As we have often emphasized "OOo is not equal ODF". Consequently, a standardized set of icons for ODF should be specified and provided by the ODF Adoption TC at OASIS [1]. Subsequently the ODF Adoption TC would recommend the use of this icon set to the implementers and later measure the success of its work. Personal remark: I would strongly prefer standardized icon sets for any file format. IMHO the clear type recognition should be the main priority for ease of use. A consistent set of icons provided by the desktop seems to be very nice from the artwork point of view, but sometimes leads to hardly distinguishable similarities. Best regards, Peter [1] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/workgroup.php?wg_abbrev=odf-adoption - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi John, Alexandro, * thanks for your feedback! John McCreesh schrieb: On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: [snip] 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo branding on user's desktops. 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish IBM ones. As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need to know what application will start when they click an icon. The art project is working on icons that include both symbols - ODF as well as another to recognize the application. There are first drafts only, but there might be a possibility to promote ODF as well as keeping the necessary information about the application. Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 7:50 AM, John McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > [snip] > > 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo > > branding on user's desktops. > > > > 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore > > used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as > > there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). > > I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus > Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish > IBM ones. > > As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting > applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications > sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need > to know what application will start when they click an icon. > > John > -- > John McCreesh - Marketing Project Lead - OpenOffice.org > Join the hundred million - http://why.openoffice.org > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > I agree with John I also dont see a big push to a standarized JPG, Mp3 or PNG iconset. So why ODF should have one? Not even Tar-Zip has one. -- Alexandro Colorado OpenOffice.org Español IM: j...@jabber.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
On Thu, November 26, 2009 6:59 pm, Bernhard Dippold wrote: [snip] > 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo > branding on user's desktops. > > 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore > used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as > there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). I remember how annoyed I was when I installed an early beta of Lotus Symphony and it replaced all my OOo desktop icons with the horribly garish IBM ones. As ODF becomes established, users may well have multiple ODF supporting applications on their desktops. So IMHO having all those applications sharing a standard set of desktop icons is not terribly useful. Users need to know what application will start when they click an icon. John -- John McCreesh - Marketing Project Lead - OpenOffice.org Join the hundred million - http://why.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Lutz, all, Lutz Hoeger schrieb: Hi Bernhard, Please don't get me wrong, I am quite thankful for your effort to extend project Unified ODF Icons into the marketing realm. But at the same time, I would like to ask you to not duplicate the discussion that already happens in disc...@ux. I didn't want to duplicate the discussion, I just tried to summarize it as addition to your wiki pages because most of the people here are not subscribed to disc...@ux. I tried to focus here on marketing and branding - I'm sorry, if this hasn't become clear enough. In particular your action list from "At first" to "Sixth" would be an excellent response to the one I proposed about one months ago. This list should not be more than a summary of the discussion on disc...@ux. All of these questions have been raised there before. If I added a new detail here, I'm sorry - perhaps a discussion a Orvieto took it's way into this mail without prior notice on disc...@ux. The main reason to summarize these points was to explain the present status of the project - having provided icons while the marketing and branding basis (enforce ODF branding while removing OOo elements from the document icons) needs further discussion to reach a consensus. I am happy to explain any questions about differences or to be more verbose in areas, where current and past activities may not have been obvious enough. It's not only about explanation, it's about finding a common way. This way should include at least a clear marketing strategy - before we ask OASIS to support the in my eyes suboptimal icons. I understand how the discussion on this list evolved, but it would make life a lot easier if we could separate topics so that they fit the respective mailing list. Here, I would expect a _marketing relevant_ discussion, just as it already takes place in some part. I mentioned user surveys and questions on icon design - they might or might not be marketing relevant. But the following points cover central marketing questions, so I'll try to concentrate on: 1. ODF branding is important, but should not lead to weakening of OOo branding on user's desktops. 2. The OOo document icons are part of our visual identity and therefore used in several marketing areas. We should not give up this chance as there might be an alternative (icons with both branding elements). 3. The highest impact of an ODF branding campaign would be reached with a combined effort by OOo, our distros, other ODF supporting products and OASIS. This would mean to include their marketing/branding thoughts on colors, application symbols and graphical themes. 4. Once we found a way to promote ODF and OOo at the same time, a marketing campaign should be started to raise attention on this work. From marketing POV it would be even better, if we could work together with OASIS, distros and other products. This campaign should have it's end point on the release of the new icons (probably in OOo 3.3). Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Bernhard, Please don't get me wrong, I am quite thankful for your effort to extend project Unified ODF Icons into the marketing realm. But at the same time, I would like to ask you to not duplicate the discussion that already happens in disc...@ux. In particular your action list from "At first" to "Sixth" would be an excellent response to the one I proposed about one months ago. I am happy to explain any questions about differences or to be more verbose in areas, where current and past activities may not have been obvious enough. I understand how the discussion on this list evolved, but it would make life a lot easier if we could separate topics so that they fit the respective mailing list. Here, I would expect a _marketing relevant_ discussion, just as it already takes place in some part. Thanks! Lutz. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi all, Just a few (more detailed) comments on the six points I mentioned yesterday: Bernhard Dippold schrieb: [...] At first there has to be a consensus on the goals to achieve. We have at least three different goals with these icons. A: ODF branding: Promote ODF by presence on the user's desktops. Keep consistency between ODF files regardless of the application opening them. B: OOo branding: Promote OOo by presence on the user's desktops. Keep consistency between documents and OOo applications. C: User interest: Recognize the files they want to open (and perhaps recognize the application they want to use, because different apps allow different actions to be done to the files). All of these goals are valid, we might differ in the relative importance of them. Second is to find a way to include most of the ODF supporting products and distributions in these goals and in the symbol language to be used to reach these goals. All comments I heard from our distros and what I read in the archives of the OASIS list mention the necessity to modify the icons. Nobody (except StarOffice) wanted to adopt these icons without modification. Before we start to invent an icon style probably not supported by others, we should find out, what will be necessary to include distros and other products. And if they are more likely to join when they can add one of their symbols to the icons, this might lead to a broader acceptance of the ODF icons than the restrictive present versions. Even the color of the badge might be discussed. Why use a color never used for ODF before? It's quite similar to OASIS blue (http://www.oasis-blue.org/), but has nothing to do with ODF. The ODF logo is dark yellow and violet (http://opendocument.xml.org/wiki/odf-community-logo). Third is to define a specification covering all the aspects of the icons (including a dedicated marketing strategy for this modification). The specs on the wiki is a good starting point, but not complete at all. Open questions like the Apple HIG, Windows way to previews with application icons at the corner, the usability of different document types without color distinction are not solved. More important: Implications on OpenOffice.org's branding identity, visual design and marketing are not evaluated at all. Fourth is about creating the icons and defining them to become the default ones. Depending on the results of the points above, the final icons might look quite different from the present ones. It will not be easy to achieve such a high quality graphical language with modified preconditions, but if (for example) a colored shadow fits more the user's needs and is decided to be more important than the minimalist colorless style, such work has to be done. Fifth means including them in test surroundings (user survey?) to find out backdrafts not noticed before. This might lead to iterative work on the previous points. Sixth and last point is the final implementation of the icons in the product, running the marketing campaign and releasing the product. We are lucky to have enough time to prepare this thoroughly. Without the right marketing strategy this might get as much negative feedback as Renaissance, although both topics have the capability to promote OpenOffice.org very very well. Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Cor Nouws schrieb: Bernhard Dippold wrote (25-11-2009 21:02) Cor Nouws schrieb: [...] This is the basis for our discussion here - and the basis for the work of the i-team working on the topic (and still looking for marketing experts...) Many words to say 'no', Bernard ;-) And to invite people to contribute to a better solution... Yes, that is honest and needed, Bernard. Sorry that I skipped that part of your message, No problem at all - this way I was able to repeat it :-) Best Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Bernhard Dippold wrote (25-11-2009 21:02) Cor Nouws schrieb: [...] This is the basis for our discussion here - and the basis for the work of the i-team working on the topic (and still looking for marketing experts...) Many words to say 'no', Bernard ;-) And to invite people to contribute to a better solution... Yes, that is honest and needed, Bernard. Sorry that I skipped that part of your message, Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Cor Nouws schrieb: [...] This is the basis for our discussion here - and the basis for the work of the i-team working on the topic (and still looking for marketing experts...) Many words to say 'no', Bernard ;-) And to invite people to contribute to a better solution... Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Bernhard Dippold wrote (25-11-2009 20:38) Cor Nouws schrieb: [...] Is it a fact, decided, that colourless desktop icons also mean that the current colour scheme for the OOo modules will be left? There has been a decision in the ESC back in March on that topic [1], but none of the relevant OOo projects has been informed or involved in this decision. As this is a very central modification with impact on user experience, marketing and general branding of OOo, such a decision needs a much more broader basis. This was one of the reasons why the new icons have not been included in OOo 3.2. It's up to us, to find the best way our community can profit from an improved ODF branding - whether the new icons will be colorless or not, whether they should show OOo branding elements or not. This is the basis for our discussion here - and the basis for the work of the i-team working on the topic (and still looking for marketing experts...) Many words to say 'no', Bernard ;-) [1]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ESC_meeting_minutes_20090309#proposal_for_unified_ODF_Document_icons -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Cor, all, Cor Nouws schrieb: [...] Is it a fact, decided, that colourless desktop icons also mean that the current colour scheme for the OOo modules will be left? There has been a decision in the ESC back in March on that topic [1], but none of the relevant OOo projects has been informed or involved in this decision. As this is a very central modification with impact on user experience, marketing and general branding of OOo, such a decision needs a much more broader basis. This was one of the reasons why the new icons have not been included in OOo 3.2. It's up to us, to find the best way our community can profit from an improved ODF branding - whether the new icons will be colorless or not, whether they should show OOo branding elements or not. This is the basis for our discussion here - and the basis for the work of the i-team working on the topic (and still looking for marketing experts...) Best regards Bernhard [1]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ESC_meeting_minutes_20090309#proposal_for_unified_ODF_Document_icons - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Volker Merschmann wrote (25-11-2009 13:59) 2009/11/25 Juergen Schmidt : Jens Habermann wrote: I created a prototype for a new "all ODF" selection screen. Because of the icons missing colors, all other color buttons ( templates, web... ) looks strangely out of place. So i did this "monochromatic ODF" version. So we have something visual to talk about... http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/e/ef/Startmenu.png Sorry I made a german/english mix, but it is about the design.. This is only a rough prototype for the only purpose to get the idea how new icons can affect OOo! mmh, i am not sure if the start center is a place where we really have to use the icons. It's probably a place where some fresh ideas are more helpful than converting the existing one. I remember that there has been a cws-build when we had the icons in the first time. The icons appeared also in the startcenter there. It is one of my problems when I think about the change. We have developed a very straight branding and colour-scheme which goes through much parts of OOo and using the ODF-Icons would break this up. Is it a fact, decided, that colourless desktop icons also mean that the current colour scheme for the OOo modules will be left? Ciao - Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Juergen, 2009/11/25 Juergen Schmidt : > Jens Habermann wrote: >> I created a prototype for a new "all ODF" selection screen. Because of the >> icons missing colors, all other color buttons ( templates, web... ) looks >> strangely out of place. So i did this "monochromatic ODF" version. So we >> have something visual to talk about... >> >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/e/ef/Startmenu.png >> >> Sorry I made a german/english mix, but it is about the design.. >> This is only a rough prototype for the only purpose to get the idea how >> new icons can affect OOo! > > mmh, i am not sure if the start center is a place where we really have to > use the icons. It's probably a place where some fresh ideas are more helpful > than converting the existing one. > I remember that there has been a cws-build when we had the icons in the first time. The icons appeared also in the startcenter there. It is one of my problems when I think about the change. We have developed a very straight branding and colour-scheme which goes through much parts of OOo and using the ODF-Icons would break this up. Just my 2 cents Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - Content Developer OpenOffice.org ++ Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows -- http://de.openoffice.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Jens Habermann wrote: > Hi all! > > I created a prototype for a new "all ODF" selection screen. Because of > the icons missing colors, all other color buttons ( templates, web... > ) looks strangely out of place. So i did this "monochromatic ODF" > version. So we have something visual to talk about... > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/e/ef/Startmenu.png This helps visualize what is there so far. There could be more difference between the spreadsheet icon and the word processing icon. For the spreadsheet the block of cells (columns and rows) could be expanded and given more contrast. For the word processing, the picture could be made smaller or faded a little and reduced in complexity. The columns of text could be given more contrast. For the drawing and presentation icons, these are quite good as they are. Maybe a little more contrast for the bullet list on the presentation and a little more contrast for the circle and rectangles. The database and formula are absolutely perfect (or close enough for government work). /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Jens Habermann wrote: Hi all! I created a prototype for a new "all ODF" selection screen. Because of the icons missing colors, all other color buttons ( templates, web... ) looks strangely out of place. So i did this "monochromatic ODF" version. So we have something visual to talk about... http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/e/ef/Startmenu.png Sorry I made a german/english mix, but it is about the design.. This is only a rough prototype for the only purpose to get the idea how new icons can affect OOo! mmh, i am not sure if the start center is a place where we really have to use the icons. It's probably a place where some fresh ideas are more helpful than converting the existing one. Juergen regards Jens - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi all! I created a prototype for a new "all ODF" selection screen. Because of the icons missing colors, all other color buttons ( templates, web... ) looks strangely out of place. So i did this "monochromatic ODF" version. So we have something visual to talk about... http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/e/ef/Startmenu.png Sorry I made a german/english mix, but it is about the design.. This is only a rough prototype for the only purpose to get the idea how new icons can affect OOo! regards Jens - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo
Hi Jürgen, all, this is exactly the discussion we need. Thanks to everybody for joining in. Of course it would have been better to discuss this topic before implementing the icons in the first product (SO 9.2), but it's time enough to find a way for OOo that is supported by the community. Juergen Schmidt schrieb: Thorsten Behrens wrote: Martin Hollmichel wrote: >>> Jürgen Schmidt wrote: again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. No - this is the wrong way from my point of view. At first there has to be a consensus on the goals to achieve. Second is to find a way to include most of the ODF supporting products and distributions in these goals and in the symbol language to be used to reach these goals. Third is to define a specification covering all the aspects of the icons (including a dedicated marketing strategy for this modification). Fourth is about creating the icons and defining them to become the default ones. Fifth means including them in test surroundings (user survey?) to find out backdrafts not noticed before. Sixth and last point is the final implementation of the icons in the product, running the marketing campaign and releasing the product. As far as I know several points have not been worked on as thoroughly as necessary, in time or at all... If we implement the icons without modification, we'll have to be aware of all the possibilities we missed during this path. As this mail is long enough, I'm not replying here in detail - please wait a bit for my next mail... I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. It's not only a question of style, but of symbolism. If we want a certain symbol to be adopted among other applications, we need to talk to them first. Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. Same for marketing and branding: Only if there is a benefit for the application (or the idea behind it), a change will take place. i understand it and it is probably not easy to achieve. But i pointed out my personal opinion and that is to use the default icons as they are. Ok, maybe we need some more icons to address different design principals in general (e.g. Gnome, KDE). In case of OOo we would need all icons for the different themes as well, correct? If such a design principle hinders the use of the ODF icons in general (Apple Human Interface Guidelines don't allow to add an identifying rethink the concept at all - before implementing icons that have to be modified afterwards. The general idea of unique icons for ODF is a good one and we should better do promotion for it. Sorry Jürgen - here I don't know if you have the support of the community. The general idea of supporting ODF branding is a good one - I'm quite sure, nobody disagrees. Using icons on the users desktops to further this idea is good as well. But the necessity to reduce or give up OOo branding in this area has been decided without involvement of the marketing project (at least I can't find any mails in the archives). And not only myself, but others I spoke to (I know, this is not representative) don't understand, why we can't keep a gull with the blue bare - perhaps colored in the application colors. Yes it would have been better to do this first and involve more people and groups. I can't change it and i wasn't involved too but i see the message and the idea behind it and that is worth to support. If we want the icons to be supported by other applications, I could imagine, that they think similar: Add the branding "ODF" sign to the icons, but keep another easy recognizable symbol for the application too. I'm quite sure that such an approach would reach much more branding recognition for ODF, if this could be more easily adopted by others than your present way. Are the icons really so bad? Or is it more a breached ego and of course the mistake that is was done behind the doors? I think the lesson is learned! At least for mysel
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Juergen Schmidt wrote: Thorsten Behrens wrote: Martin Hollmichel wrote: again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. i understand it and it is probably not easy to achieve. But i pointed out my personal opinion and that is to use the default icons as they are. Ok, maybe we need some more icons to address different design principals in general (e.g. Gnome, KDE). In case of OOo we would need all icons for the different themes as well, correct? The general idea of unique icons for ODF is a good one and we should better do promotion for it. Yes it would have been better to do this first and involve more people and groups. I can't change it and i wasn't involved too but i see the message and the idea behind it and that is worth to support. Are the icons really so bad? No, I think those icons are excellent, but I'm not the person who should judge about this since my preferred user interface is still the command line ;-). We need contact to the artist teams of KDE and Gnome and get their feedback, Or is it more a breached ego and of course the mistake that is was done behind the doors? I think the lesson is learned! As long as I can be sure that the right people are sitting behind the door, I'm fine with it, do we know whom to contact in the KDE and Gnome artist teams ? Juergen Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Thorsten Behrens wrote: Martin Hollmichel wrote: again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. i understand it and it is probably not easy to achieve. But i pointed out my personal opinion and that is to use the default icons as they are. Ok, maybe we need some more icons to address different design principals in general (e.g. Gnome, KDE). In case of OOo we would need all icons for the different themes as well, correct? The general idea of unique icons for ODF is a good one and we should better do promotion for it. Yes it would have been better to do this first and involve more people and groups. I can't change it and i wasn't involved too but i see the message and the idea behind it and that is worth to support. Are the icons really so bad? Or is it more a breached ego and of course the mistake that is was done behind the doors? I think the lesson is learned! Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Martin Hollmichel wrote: > >again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons > >as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to > >OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows > >but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the > >default ODF icons without any changes. > > I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important > to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be > difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and > OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if > there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists > say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated > into their specific icon themes. > Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. Cheers, -- Thorsten pgpkxefiujLKU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi, To clarify what I wrote, ODF is used by many apps. However, to address your point, Juergen, we can focus on OOo. OOo is provided by many distros. Each of those distros has at least one icon theme. Those themes have basic colors. There are usually two main colors to a theme, sometimes just one. It would encourage adoption of the icons if it were easy for the theme maintainers to use the icons but with their own colors. again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Lars Nooden wrote: Juergen Schmidt wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. ... would use their own icons. A mask is a term from photography carried over to digital graphics. thanks for the explanation but i think i have understand the term before ;-) To clarify what I wrote, ODF is used by many apps. However, to address your point, Juergen, we can focus on OOo. OOo is provided by many distros. Each of those distros has at least one icon theme. Those themes have basic colors. There are usually two main colors to a theme, sometimes just one. It would encourage adoption of the icons if it were easy for the theme maintainers to use the icons but with their own colors. again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. It would also help if a logo or pictogram where used to identify ODF. good idea but should be probably addressed somewhere else Juergen /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Juergen Schmidt wrote: > Lars Nooden wrote: >> Bernhard Dippold wrote: >> >>> In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without >>> having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. >>> Same with the product information in the icons. >> >> Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). >> Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions >> of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would >> be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with >> established desktop themes. > > ... would use their own icons. A mask is a term from photography carried over to digital graphics. To clarify what I wrote, ODF is used by many apps. However, to address your point, Juergen, we can focus on OOo. OOo is provided by many distros. Each of those distros has at least one icon theme. Those themes have basic colors. There are usually two main colors to a theme, sometimes just one. It would encourage adoption of the icons if it were easy for the theme maintainers to use the icons but with their own colors. It would also help if a logo or pictogram where used to identify ODF. /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Le Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:01:28 +0100, Juergen Schmidt a écrit : > > Lars Nooden wrote: > > Bernhard Dippold wrote: > > > >> In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without > >> having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this > >> change. Same with the product information in the icons. > > > > Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale > > shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that > > distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? > > Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way > > to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. > > Is that really the point? I think no, the key message of the icons is > to strengthen the ODF brand. And that application independent! For > ODF it is important that people understand the openness of the > format, that it is based on a standard and that it can be used with > different applications. > > From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique > icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is the > default app on the system to open these files. > > I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all > ODF handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably > do a proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their > original design. The same would be true for the OOo brand. We should > focus on the message that OOo is the best application to work with > ODF. > > Just my 2 cents > > Juergen > +1 Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Michael Meeks wrote: On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 10:01 +0100, Juergen Schmidt wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? .. I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all ODF handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably do a proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their original design. Has anyone considered asking those responsible for artwork in Linux distributions about this scheme ? i don't know but i think that is not the questions here. Juergen Might be a good idea to do this as step #1 instead of step #50 ;-) HTH, Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 10:01 +0100, Juergen Schmidt wrote: > Lars Nooden wrote: > > Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). > > Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions > > of distros can overlay their own colors? .. > I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all ODF > handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably do a > proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their original > design. Has anyone considered asking those responsible for artwork in Linux distributions about this scheme ? Might be a good idea to do this as step #1 instead of step #50 ;-) HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Lars Nooden wrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. Is that really the point? I think no, the key message of the icons is to strengthen the ODF brand. And that application independent! For ODF it is important that people understand the openness of the format, that it is based on a standard and that it can be used with different applications. From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is the default app on the system to open these files. I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all ODF handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably do a proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their original design. The same would be true for the OOo brand. We should focus on the message that OOo is the best application to work with ODF. Just my 2 cents Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Bernhard Dippold wrote: > In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without > having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. > Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi Jens, all, Jens Habermann schrieb: Hi! If the colors are not used anymore, we should think about recreating all marketing stuff using these colors ( Splash and PrOOoBox CD comes to my mind ). I am glad if I can be of any help. I'd rather see the colors still used than creating more or less gray artwork ... In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Therefore a few OOo project members (including myself) try to convince the i-team working on these icons to keep at least a small colored area and perhaps a branding element from OOo. Any help would be really appreciated! Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi! If the colors are not used anymore, we should think about recreating all marketing stuff using these colors ( Splash and PrOOoBox CD comes to my mind ). I am glad if I can be of any help. Regards Jens Am 21.11.2009 um 17:28 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: > Hi all, > > as you probably know, the OOo document icons are going to be replaced by > icons representing the document type by greyscale graphics and a blue banner > with "ODF" as reference to their affiliation to the ODF family [0]. > > This has been done in order to improve branding on ODF. > > As this topic affects central marketing points (OOo branding, color scheme, > recognition of OOo as application on the desktop ...) I'd like to see more > marketing expertise in the team working on the adoption of these icons for > OOo (in SO9.2 they will be used nevertheless). > > Lutz Hoeger did ask for contributors on the ux list several times (last mail: > [1]), he provided a spec [2] and a homepage [3] on the wiki. > > If anybody is interested in this area, please drop a comment... > > Best regards > > Bernhard > > [0]: http://odftoolkit.org/ODF-Icons > [1]: http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=discuss&msgNo=4409 > [2]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons > [3]: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons_-_Project_Home_Page > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
[marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi all, as you probably know, the OOo document icons are going to be replaced by icons representing the document type by greyscale graphics and a blue banner with "ODF" as reference to their affiliation to the ODF family [0]. This has been done in order to improve branding on ODF. As this topic affects central marketing points (OOo branding, color scheme, recognition of OOo as application on the desktop ...) I'd like to see more marketing expertise in the team working on the adoption of these icons for OOo (in SO9.2 they will be used nevertheless). Lutz Hoeger did ask for contributors on the ux list several times (last mail: [1]), he provided a spec [2] and a homepage [3] on the wiki. If anybody is interested in this area, please drop a comment... Best regards Bernhard [0]: http://odftoolkit.org/ODF-Icons [1]: http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=discuss&msgNo=4409 [2]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons [3]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons_-_Project_Home_Page - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
